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==Spelling==
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[[Crème brûlée]] and [[crema catalana]] are essentially the same dish, and indeed there are claims (both ways) that one was the origin of the other. [[Wikipedia:Content forking|Wikipedia policy]] says that we organize articles by substantive topic, not by name, national associations, or point of view, so I see no reason for two articles here. [[Topic_creation#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name|Wikipedia policy further clarifies]] that we should ''prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize'', which is quite clearly ''crème brûlée'' and not ''crema catalana'', ''burnt cream'', or ''Trinity cream''. --[[User:Macrakis|macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 14:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
*'''Strong agree''' [[User:Physchim62|Physchim62]] [[User talk:Physchim62|(talk)]] 00:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
As a catalan who live near french I know well how is a creme brulee and crema catalana. Is well known the main ingredients are the same but the texture and the cook style is completly diferent, crema catala has a texture as custard but creme brulee is more like pie. Furthermore the flavour of the crema catalana is potenciated by cinamon unlike creme brulee which is powered by vainilla. [[User:RhinoFullmetal|RhinoFullmetal]] ([[User talk:RhinoFullmetal|talk]]) 20:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
== Requested move ==
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*'''Oppose''' - what's changed since this was last discussed above? [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 04:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
== French IPA ==
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::PS As a matter of procedure, please do not remove the merge template until there's been time for people to see it and discuss the topic. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 22:23, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
:::See, I've eaten both, and they taste very different. Only people who don't know what the dishes are think they are the same. They're not, it's misleading to include them in the same article. Why you're on a crusade to do that, I don't know. PS Because your best argument for merge was something on common name that is irrelevant, the template can and should be removed. [[User:Kingsif|Kingsif]] ([[User talk:Kingsif|talk]]) 22:49, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
::::What they taste like to you is [[WP:OR|original research]], and in any case, closely related foods and dishes can taste quite different, but still belong in the same article. Dark-roast coffee with cream and sugar tastes very different from light-roast coffee served black; my grandmother might spice meatballs with allspice and yours might spice them with red pepper, but they're still meatballs. Of course, the exact line is not completely clear -- we have separate articles for [[omelette]], [[frittata]], and [[eggah]].
::::Since the lines aren't clear, we rely on reliable sources. And in fact we have a number of [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] saying that they are "slightly different" or "virtually identical" or "made the same way" and characterising them together as "the dessert", which is I think my "best argument". The link provided above by [[User:Underlying lk]] is an individual's blog, not a RS, and it claims that Crema catalana is made with milk and cornstarch, no eggs, so I think we can discount it.
::::Kindly [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and [[WP:NPA|don't attack me]] as being "on a crusade". Let's please focus on the sources and on applying WP's policies to this article. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 03:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::I don't think this is significant enough to warrant discussion/response, but will note that since the discussion above on merging it was started by you two whole years ago, it seems like (if not a crusade) you at least have some shtick with this that nobody else does, for some reason. [[User:Kingsif|Kingsif]] ([[User talk:Kingsif|talk]]) 00:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
::::::You are grossly misrepresenting the history. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crema_catalana&diff=271014002&oldid=270442633 I merged] Crema catalana into Crème brûlée in February 2009 after [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e&type=revision&diff=269227615&oldid=235651325 a merger proposal] which received one Strong agree and no opposition after being open for over a month.
::::::In May 2018, [[User:Underlying lk]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e&type=revision&diff=842639635&oldid=807717264 proposed splitting the articles], and pinged me. I responded to his arguments with [[WP:RS]] and that seemed to be the end of that. (This is what you are apparently referring to as a discussion on merging I started two years ago.)
::::::Then, in October 2019, after '''ten years''' where the merger was stable, you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e&type=revision&diff=921264783&oldid=916166590 unilaterally split the articles], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crema_catalana&type=revision&diff=921264733&oldid=842619361 moving content from one to the other] with no discussion at all on Talk.
::::::Given [[WP:BRD]], I'd have been within my rights to revert your merger, but as a courtesy, I asked for a merger discussion. You responded to that discussion by claiming that it was "clearly" a different dish, providing no sources (reliable or otherwise), and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crema_catalana&type=revision&diff=939023413&oldid=939001112 removing the merger notice].
::::::I again ask you to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]], to avoid [[WP:NPA|insulting me]], and to follow WP policies. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 17:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
::::::PS, you might take a look at the [[Crème caramel]] article for comparison. It documents a number of variants (condensed milk, coconut, cream cheese, fruit, flavorings including vanilla, cinnamon, lemon peel, coffee, ...) with a number of names (''flan'', ''flan de leche'', ''flan napolitano'', ''purin'', ''tocino de cielo'', ...). --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 19:34, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Kingsif}} You had not responded to the above for 10 days, so it seemed that you no longer had objections. So I restored the Crema catalana material to this article. You reverted, with the comment "no consensus at tha talk page. Get consensus, you can’t propose a move, be told no, and still do it. Several times."
:::::::But in fact it was ''you'' who [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e&diff=921264783&oldid=916166590 split the article in October] with no discussion at all (let alone consensus), after 10 years where it was mostly stable. Not only that, when I put up a merger template pointing to the discussion, you deleted it, and proceeded to misrepresent my arguments, accuse me of being on a "crusade", and say I "have some shtick" with this article.
:::::::I provided [[WP:RS]] supporting a single article. I showed that the [[crème caramel]] article covers an even broader range of variants (as most recipes do). You provided only personal opinions and not a single RS. In the meantime, I have found some additional RS -- see [[Talk:Crème_brûlée/Crema_catalana]].
:::::::At this point, it seems unlikely that further discussion will be productive, so I'll ask for a third opinion. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 23:09, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
::::::::If there is no way to title the article (brûlée / catalana) because the 2 names are the defining aspect of the two...If there were a way to merge, how would the article be titled, since the 2 identifying names differ by the fact of being 2 different cultures, the two cultures didn't provide a way to think the two things are the same, because nationality (language (of France) and specific place (Spain)... https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crema_catalana&diff=271014002&oldid=270442633 cannot be acceptable because the name of the dessert belongs to, is a possession of Spanish culture [[User:Diametakomisi|Diametakomisi]] ([[User talk:Diametakomisi|talk]]) 23:41, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Saw this at [[WP:3O]], but it seems like if a merger proposal is properly formatted, those templates should do the work of alerting people to discussion. It looks like {{tl|mergefrom}} was missing, however, so I added it. I've looked at the sources cited in the other article, and did my own search. The overwhelming majority of the sources ''about'' the subject (as opposed to sources which are just recipes) make a connection to creme brulee. As such my inclination is that they are similar enough (or, more specifically, covered by sources as similar enough) to justify a merge. I have a lingering concern, though: is this sort of coverage typical across languages? Certainly creme brulee is very common here in the US, and perhaps in other English-speaking countries such that it makes sense that something with similar properties would be covered with it. But I wonder if that's the case internationally... — <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 23:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
:additionally, for example, in [[Draft:List_of_discoveries_in_mathematics#7th_century_A.D.]] "(Harriot 1601,[5] Snell 1619) Brahmagupta", both the discoverer and the subsequent discoverers are mentioned [[User:Diametakomisi|Diametakomisi]] ([[User talk:Diametakomisi|talk]]) 23:45, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
The mergefrom and mergefrom have been up now for many months, with no additional discussion.
Re the point about the name, WP policy is clear ([[WP:OTHERNAMES]]). Articles use one title, and alternatives are mentioned in the text of the article.
The content of [[Crema catalana]] was incorporated into [[Crème brûlée]] a long time ago. So I will change [[Crema catalana]] to a redirect to it. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 19:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
:I've only just now come across this merger, as a result of looking up ''crema catalana''. Knowing both ''crema catalana'' and ''crème brûlée'' well, and thus aware that the two are, from ingredients through preparation to the method for achieving burnt effect... to taste, noticeably distinct, it would not have occurred to me that one would have been buried in the article labeled for the other. They are not alternative names; they are not the case of Gdańsk and Danzig, not alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, etc.
:Some of the discussion above jumps the rails a bit, but the overall effect is that no consensus is reached for folding ''crema catalana'' into ''crème brûlée''. The two could be sub-types of a descriptively factual over-arching category, but that's not what's done here (analogy: ''manchego'' and ''pecorino'' are "cheeses made from sheep's milk", but one is definitely not a type of the other). One of the positive aspects of Wikipedia is that contents are constantly being refined in terms of accuracy. The merger of these two is a move in the opposite direction, and runs the risk of implicitly misinforming -- and certainly misleading -- ingenuous readers, a counter-current to the purpose of an encyclopedia. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 15:48, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
::As the discussion above and the relevant Wikipedia policies say, two items do not need to be identical or to be two names for the same thing to be discussed in the same article. I hope you'll agree that crème brûlée, crema catalana, and Trinity cream have a strong family resemblance. There is a custard base (with varying flavorings), and there is a hard caramel top. This is in effect the "descriptively factual over-arching category" you mention above -- it just happens that there is no standard name for it: it would not be helpful (or consistent with Wikipedia policy) to rename this article, say, '''Custard desserts topped with hard caramel''', because that is not a commonly-used name. I'll note, by the way, that we do have a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e&oldid=975361050#cite_note-Andrews2005-6 nice source] -- from a ''Catalan'' cookbook -- that crema catalana is "virtually identical" to crème brûlée. Even if it is not, it makes more sense to have a single article.
::Almost all dishes have a range of variations, and many of them are considered to be national or regional variants. We should celebrate the variation in the article; but that doesn't need multiple articles. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 17:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
:::I'm going to, perhaps, disappoint by confessing that I'm not interested in a pointlessly endless bickering match. No harm in observing the obvious, though: an article such as ''Custard desserts'', sort of parallel to the ''Green sauce'' model, would work fine. Summary descriptions of typologies (and subtypes, if useful) with appropriate links to the individual articles. If real consensus finds that ''Custard desserts'' or something similar is not common or clear enough (although I'd never heard of green sauce as such in English), well, c'est la vie, no need to stretch for a higher node. If an intermediate ''burnt custards'' or similar is ruled out, ''Crema catalana'' and ''crème brûlée'' stand well as separate articles, with cross-linking, and bundling them together loses more than it gains, for reasons explained clearly above. This really isn't a difficult case. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 19:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Discussion is how we resolve differences on WP. Calling it "pointless endless bickering" hardly moves the discussion forward.
::::The article [[custard]] is mostly about custard desserts, though it also mentions some non-dessert custards. Besides plain custard, it also includes crème caramel and crème brûlée as well as some other things. I don't see a need for a separate [[custard dessert]] article; do you?
::::I wouldn't mind renaming this article [[burnt custard]], but [[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA|our policy]] says to use the ''most common'' name, and ''crème brûlée'' is [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=burnt+custard%2Ccr%C3%A8me+br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e%2Ccrema+catalana%2CTrinity+cream&year_start=1985&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3 about 200x more common] than ''burnt custard''. For that matter, ''burnt custard'' seems to be [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?corpus=26&content=burnt+custard%3Aeng_gb_2019%2Cburnt+custard%3Aeng_us_2019&smoothing=3&year_end=2019&year_start=1985&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cburnt%20custard%3Aeng_gb_2019%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cburnt%20custard%3Aeng_us_2019%3B%2Cc0 primarily UK usage, and on the decline] (and some of the hits in ngrams are talking about custard that has been unintentionally burnt, not custard with caramel on top).
::::[[Green sauce]] is an interesting comparison. The issue there is that [[salsa verde]] in the US at least has a well-established meaning as a particular Mexican sauce which is (amusingly, strangely) ''not'' a member of the category ''green sauce'', and in any case is only 2x as common, not 200x.
::::Re "this isn't a difficult case", nice to know that you agree with yourself, but the goal of a discussion is to convince others. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 19:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
::::: "the goal of a discussion is to convince others." In a word... no. And therein the rub. As long as the goal is viewed as being to convince others rather than to come to agreement on a satisfactory solution, stalemate will be the result. As for the rest, sorry, not falling into this trap. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 20:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::You're right. But asserting "this isn't a difficult case" hardly advances toward agreement. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 21:16, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' There are benefits to keeping separate articles instead of one article "burnt custard". This source even says that ''crema catalana'' does not have to be topped with caramel. [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Catalan_Cuisine/zFJEBgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=crema+catalana&pg=PA273&printsec=frontcover]. [[User:Spudlace|Spudlace]] ([[User talk:Spudlace|talk]]) 21:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
: '''Oppose''' Agreed. In addition to facts and argumentation above, I've just noticed that the German-language Wikipedia handles these nicely. Two separate articles, each referring to the other. Looks as though more than one person agrees with himself that das ist nicht schwer. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 21:25, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
'''Point of order''' There is no open ''merge'' discussion. As you'll see from the history above, there was one article covering both variants of hard caramel custard since 2009, with a brief interlude where an editor split them without discussion. I asked if there were any objections to restoring the ''status quo ante'' in February, and only got one objection, from the person who unilaterally split it without discussion. So I restored the status quo ante in June. If you want to start a "split" proposal now, go ahead, and add an appropriate announcement to the page. (Obviously I would be opposed.) --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 22:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Now back to substance. I have had both dishes, too, and certainly there are differences, but there is much more in common than there is different. Grilled lamb chops (paidakia) as served in Greece (say) are very different from grilled lamb chops as served in a New York steakhouse -- they are cut differently, seasoned differently, grilled differently, and garnished differently -- but they're recognizably in the same category. So I'd say that there are two issues: should one article cover both variants? And if so, what should be its title? In the spirit of "coming to an agreement", I would much rather have one article titled "Burnt cream custard" or some such than have two articles, even if it technically violates [[WP:NAMINGCRITERIA]]. In my opinion, splitting up families of similar foods along national lines is destructive of the value of WP. The next logical step would be to separate out [[Trinity cream]], which has its own recipe and its own mythology. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 22:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
:There's just no policy reason to merge French, Spanish, and English cuisine articles. These European cuisines have well known and published primary source traditions that have become firmly established in Western academic literature, and often have distinct cultural traditions and associated customs that have developed over centuries. [[User:Spudlace|Spudlace]] ([[User talk:Spudlace|talk]]) 22:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
::Right. And the model exists. These work nicely: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crema_catalana], [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A8me_br%C3%BBl%C3%A9e]. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 23:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
:::On the contrary. If a family of dishes is found in more than one cuisine, it should ideally be treated in a single article. It would be absurd to have a separate article for French ''pommes frites'', Belgian ''pommes frites''/''frieten'', British chips, American French fries, etc., even though they have different names and differ in a variety of ways -- the typical fat used, the typical size, the most common condiments used with them, the most common dishes they accompany, etc. The policy reasons are [[WP:NOTDICT]] (don't separate by name, but by topic) and [[WP:CFORK]] (don't separate by point of view).
:::Often, of course, there is significant variation among varieties, sometimes even along national lines. But reifying "national cuisines" by splitting articles about closely related families of foods is not helpful. Should we also have an article about Spanish ''Crema de San José''? What exactly would it say that wasn't redundant?
:::So the question is whether crème brûlée and crema catalana are different enough to require different articles. I think we all agree that they are custard desserts topped with hard caramel, right? We also agree that the typical flavorings used in the caramel differ. But surely that is just as true of, say, [[rice pudding]]. Why would we have separate articles for Greek rice pudding (typically flavored with cinnamon), Levantine rice pudding (with rosewater), etc.?
:::Moreover, we have multiple reliable, third-party sources saying that the two dishes are "virtually identical".
:::At the same time, there are many things we can do to improve the coverage of the Catalan version in this article. For example, the article says that crema catalana is documented in the 14th-century ''Llibre de Sent Soví'', but without a precise page reference which would let us [[WP:V|verify]] it. It would surely be worthwhile to have a blockquote or feature box with the full 14th-century recipe. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 15:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
:::: [[Café au lait]], [[Café con leche]], Caffè [[latte]], [[Wiener Melange]], [[Cappuccino]], [[Galão]], [[Caffè macchiato]], [[Cortado]], [[Latte macchiato]]... [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 17:25, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::Excellent example of a set of articles that should be merged! [[WP:OTHER|Two wrongs don't make a right]]. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 18:34, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::I undid the merge which was done without achieving a consensus. The merge should not be done while the discussion is open. [[User:Spudlace|Spudlace]] ([[User talk:Spudlace|talk]]) 20:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Huh? The stable version is actually the merged version. It was split ''with zero discussion'' in 2019 after almost 10 years in that form. I put a merge notice up in February to restore that version and it remained up until June, when I restored the stable version. Now, suddenly, two months after that, it is apparently so urgent to split the article that you've cut off discussion and restored the undiscussed split version after just one day's discussion? --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] ([[User talk:Macrakis|talk]]) 20:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::Spudlace, thanks for straightening this out. Text in both can now be cleaned up a bit. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 21:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Living myself in [[Northern Catalonia]] (in France), all restaurants here mostly have Crema catalana. Those that do more traditional French cooking do Crême brûlée. The difference between the two is an evidence for all customers and no one would call Crême brûlée Crema catalana or the opposite. [[User:Culex|Culex]] ([[User talk:Culex|talk]]) 23:22, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
== "Creme broolay" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Creme broolay]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 November 3#Creme broolay]] until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Un assiolo|Un assiolo]] ([[User talk:Un assiolo|talk]]) 19:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I am late to the party but I personally would support it: it fits the "regular" 26 letters of English alphabet. [[User:OkiPrinterUser|OkiPrinterUser]] ([[User talk:OkiPrinterUser|talk]]) 15:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
== No Creme Brulee in French cookbooks until the 1980s (?) ==
Is there really no creme brulee in the basic works of, say, Raymond Oliver (since ca. 1958), Bocuse or Lenotre? - I haven't got those anymore, so can't look myself.--[[User:Ralfdetlef|Ralfdetlef]] ([[User talk:Ralfdetlef|talk]]) 06:57, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
:Absence of proof is not a proof of absence. Please try the correct French spelling. [[User:OkiPrinterUser|OkiPrinterUser]] ([[User talk:OkiPrinterUser|talk]]) 15:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
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