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{{British English}}
== Capitalisation of article title ==
When used as a title obviously it should be capitalised (e.g.: ''Joe Bloggs Member of Parliament'') but then the acronym is always used. Elsewhere it makes little sense (i.e.: it should be ''Joe Bloggs is a member of parliament''). Even ''member of Parliament'' would be just acceptable if it was clear we were talking about a specific parliament (as ''Parliament'' could be shorthand for ''Parliament of ...'') but we aren't in this article. The same thing applies to simlar articles like ''[[Assembly Member]]''.
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== Is not the House of Lords PART of the British Parliament? ==
My friends in the UK are describing the Wikipedia as "a great work of fiction" based in part on the claim that an MP is a representative elected by the voters of an electoral district and that, therefore, members of the House of Lords are not Members of Parliament. I see absolutely NO sources or references in the article for restricting the term MP to the Commons in the UK (There seems to be a little somehting for that in Australia.) Can someone provide an authoritative reference? [[User:Pzavon|Pzavon]] 01:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
: Well it's undoubtedly the case that some peers are 'members of parliament' but they are not nor have they ever been called either that or MPs. [[User:Alci12|Alci12]] 20:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:: That answer rather escapes the point, as the question isn't about peers who are eligible to be elected to the [[British House of Commons]]. Members of the House of Lords aren't ever referred to in the UK as members of parliament, although the House of Lords is of course part of the [[Parliament of the United Kingdom]] and they are members of it. We could call it an anomoly that somehow over the centuries members of the House of Commons have come to monopolize the description 'member of parliament'. [[User:Moonraker2|Moonraker2]] ([[User talk:Moonraker2|talk]]) 16:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
This is obviously speculation, but I would hazard the guess that Commons members would have adopted "MP" in order to make clear that they were Members of Parliament, whereas peers haven't ever needed to do the same - they already had titles, which (until very recently) would have come with a seat in the Lords, so it didn't need to be stated seperately. [[Special:Contributions/86.170.165.125|86.170.165.125]] ([[User talk:86.170.165.125|talk]]) 21:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
== Missing: Parliament of Kenya ==
Kenyan Parliament, homepage http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/
To be added --[[User:RicHard|RicHard]] ([[User talk:RicHard|talk]]) 14:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
== Details on UK MP's remuneration to new section? ==
I think the topical importance of MP's remuneration means that this section warrants its own entry.
I'll look at seeing how this might be done [[User:Cloversmate|Cloversmate]] ([[User talk:Cloversmate|talk]]) 22:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
== Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government ==
The subsection on Wales currently starts:
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[[User:Eebkent|Eebkent]] ([[User talk:Eebkent|talk]]) 11:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
== "The term Member of Parliament is often shortened in the media and in every day use to the initialism 'MP'." ==
Despite having lived in the U.S. for some 20-odd years, I saw the term, "MP," to refer a member of parliament for the first time today. It might be a good idea to change this text to something along the lines of, "In many English-speaking parliamentary countries, the term...." It's additionally confusing because the term, "MP," typically refers to military police in the U.S. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/219.121.17.189|219.121.17.189]] ([[User talk:219.121.17.189|talk]]) 05:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I don't see a problem with the sentence. It is factually accurate and there is no evidence that usage is limited to within English speaking countries only. There are many acronyms with multiple meanings but we don't constantly have to worry about the alternative meanings. The context of "Member of Parliament is often shortened... to the initialism 'MP'" makes it clear this is not about the US military police. [[User:Road Wizard|Road Wizard]] ([[User talk:Road Wizard|talk]]) 09:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
== Requested move 1 ==
{{#ifeq:yes|yes||{{#invoke:Error|error| Template:Requested move/old ''must'' be [[Wikipedia:Template substitution|substituted]]|tag=}}}}<span id="reqmovetag"></span>{{check talk}}
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
The result of the move request was: '''No consensus, not moved''' {{RMnac}} [[User:DavidLeighEllis|DavidLeighEllis]] ([[User talk:DavidLeighEllis|talk]]) 01:00, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
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[[:Member of Parliament]] → {{no redirect|Member of parliament}} – As the lead explains, the topic is the generic member of parliament, not some proper noun. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. This ''is'' a proper noun; it is a title, which is always capitalised in use. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 15:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
== Requested move: let's get our facts straight ==
In response to [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]]:
* Titles are capitalized ''when used as titles before names'':
**Governor of New York Nelson Rockefeller
*Titles are not capitalized when used in other ways:
**In [[New York state election, 1958|the state election of 1958]], he was elected [[governor of New York]] by over 600,000 votes.
***Many Wikipedia editors are careless and capitalize titles even when not used as titles before names.
* In any country that has a parliament, ''Parliament'' is a proper noun, and should be capitalized when referring to a specific parliament.
* When ''Member of Parliament'' is used as a title before a name, it must be capitalized.
* When it is used in any other way that refers to a specific Parliament, ''member'' should not be capitalized in American English. Other varieties of English often do capitalize ''Member''.
** ''The New York Times'' uses ''member of Parliament'' in constructions such as
*** he became a member of Parliament
*** a member of Parliament from Britain
*** a Conservative member of Parliament
* Numerous titles, including ''doctor'', ''senator'', ''professor'', etc., are routinely lowercased when not used as titles.
** The senator said to the professor, "call a doctor!"
In response to [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]]:
* You are correct that the topic is the generic member of parliament, not some proper noun, and if this discussion were still open, I would '''Support''' the requested move ... except that this article is written in British English, where ''Member of Parliament'' is routinely used even when not a title before a name.
— [[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 23:51, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
:Even in UK English the generic lowercase version is not uncommon. The caps one is for their own Parliament, natch. Anyway, if you would support, we can try again. I don't know why this one wasn't relisted to get some opinions. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 04:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
::Indeed. Unless there's some special case, ''member of parliament'' should not be upcased, in any variety of English (Oxford and Chicago guides both say minimise capping generally). Nor is there a good argument to upcase ''parliament'' alone; in Australia there's one parliament every three years, generally and generically. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 13:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
:::So should I just do another RM, or perhaps question the non-admin close that should have been a re-list at [[WP:MRV]]? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
::::I'll just do another RM. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
::UK newspaper usage is mixed. Some papers use "Member of Parliament" (UK) and "member of parliament" (non-UK). Other always use "member of parliament" even for the UK.
::''The Guardian'' seems to use ''member of parliament'' for the UK and other parliaments:
::*"To refuse to talk to someone just because of their nationality is pure racism, and totally unacceptable for a member of parliament."—[http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/feb/21/george-galloway-debate-israeli-oxfordGeorge Galloway refuses to debate with Israeli student at Oxford]
::*"the member of parliament representing Ikror has been Rahul Gandhi" —[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/india-elections-nehru-gandhi-dynasty India elections: domination of Nehru-Gandhi dynasty under threat]
::*"Her son is a member of parliament and head of the Congress party's youth wing" —[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/04/sonia-gandhi-rahul-surgery-india Sonia Gandhi puts son Rahul in charge as she flies abroad for surgery]
::''The Times'' (London) seems to use ''Member of Parliament'' for the UK and "member of parliament" for other parliaments:
::*Zaehner’s successor was C. M. Woodhouse ... a Member of Parliament [of the UK]." —[http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1069418.ece The significance of Muhammad Mossadegh]
::*David Cameron ... had also been hoping to meet separately with Mr [Rahul] Gandhi, 40, who became a member of parliament in 2004 ..." —[http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article2665507.ece Cameron fails to secure meeting with Gandhis on trip to India]
::''The Telegraph'' seems to use ''Member of Parliament'' for the UK and "member of parliament" for other parliaments:
::*"Mr [Gordon] Brown ... is, and will remain, Member of Parliament for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath ..." —[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10771912/Will-Gordon-Brown-step-down.html Will Gordon Brown step down?]
::*Mr Vajpayee, a previous member of parliament for Lucknow —[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/10770367/Indian-election-2014-Narendra-Modi-could-face-internal-challenge-from-BJP-president.html Indian election 2014: Narendra Modi 'could face internal challenge from BJP president']
::— [[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 02:27, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
== Requested move 2==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
The result of the move request was: '''moved per request'''. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 16:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
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[[:Member of Parliament]] → {{no redirect|Member of parliament}} – The previous RM was prematurely closed as the discussion section above shows. There's no good reason to treat parliament as a proper name in this context. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
* '''Support''' as nom. Please review the article to see that the title is not referring to a particular entity, so can't possibly be a proper name. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This term in itself is as generic as it comes. capitalisation is very context dependent. There are many parliaments, including the Mother of parliaments. . There are also many members of parliament, like the member of Parliament for Finchley. People often fall into the trap of excess capitalisation, as demonstrated by BHG above, and just asserting it's a proper noun does not make it so. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#00FF00"> Ohc </span>''']]</span></small>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>''¡digame!''</sup>]] 06:57, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – reasons above, and not only mine. [[User:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">'''Tony'''</span>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) </span>]] 13:32, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' for all reasons already listed here, and my research documented under [[#Requested move: let's get our facts straight|Requested move: let's get our facts straight]] showing that British English allows ''member of parliament'' even for a member of a specific national parliament, let alone the completely generic use. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 02:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I don't see how this can even be considered a proper noun in this case since the article is not about members of a particular parliament. This is different than something like [[List of House members of the 41st Parliament of Canada]] because that is not an article about members of one specific parliament not a general article on the subject as this is. It's also the same reason that [[List of Vice Presidents of the United States]] is capitalized whereas the general [[Vice president]] article is not.--[[Special:Contributions/67.70.140.89|67.70.140.89]] ([[User talk:67.70.140.89|talk]]) 02:43, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
::To add to my argument, since there is evidence that the use of the uppercase term Member of Parliament is not even consistently used when discussing specific parliaments the case for using uppercase in this general article is even weaker than I initially thought.--[[Special:Contributions/67.70.140.89|67.70.140.89]] ([[User talk:67.70.140.89|talk]]) 03:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This is about the generic concept of "member of (a) parliament". <small>[[Special:Contributions/Victor_falk|<sup style="color:green;">''walk''</sup>]]</small> [[user:victor falk|<i style="color:green;">victor falk</i>]]<sup><small> [[user_talk:victor falk|<i style="color:green;">talk</i>]]</small></sup> 07:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
<hr />
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
== Westminster vs others ==
Isn't Israel a Westminster system? The articl on the Westminster system says it is.
If the two sections are split according to the use of the english term member of parliament/MP, then that should be made more clear, perhaps by renaming the sections "usage by country" and "other titles". [[User:Hydromania|Hydromania]] ([[User talk:Hydromania|talk]]) 07:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
== Article title ==
Alright, I know the 2014 RFC result was/is '''Member of parliament''' instead of '''Member of Parliament'''. But it is rather odd, comparing to [[Member of Congress]], not to mention that we use the abbreviation '''MP''', rather then '''Mp'''. 19:04, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
== Requested move 12 November 2021 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''
The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Natg 19|Natg 19]] ([[User talk:Natg 19|talk]]) 08:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
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[[:Member of parliament]] → {{no redirect|Member of Parliament}} – This is a title which is capitalised in reliable sources, including the UK Parliament's own website. [[https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/]] [[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=At_tD-XpWKMC&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&dq=Member+of+Parliament&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Member%20of%20Parliament%22&f=false]] [[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vTff_YwkKSYC&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&dq=Member+of+Parliament&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Member%20of%20Parliament&f=false]] Google ngrams shows capitals to be most commonly used. [[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Member+of+Parliament%2Cmember+of+parliament&year_start=2000&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3]]. I confess to only having looked at British English sources but that is purely because the article is written in British English. [[User:Ykraps|Ykraps]] ([[User talk:Ykraps|talk]]) 06:16, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - The abbreviation alone, seals it. They're know as an ''MP'', not ''Mp''. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 06:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
::[[MOS:CAPS]] says "{{tq|Do not apply initial capitals in a full term that is a common-noun phrase, just because capitals are used in its abbreviation}}", so the abbreviation shouldn't make a difference. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 07:02, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
:::I'm sticking with supporting ''Member of Parliament''. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 07:21, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per previous discussion in 2014, which reached a clear agreement, and per [[MOS:JOBTITLES]]: "{{tq|Offices, titles, and positions such as ''president'', ''king'', ''emperor'', ''grand duke'', ''lord mayor'', ''pope'', ''bishop'', ''abbot'', ''prime minister'', ''leader of the opposition'', ''chief financial officer'', and ''executive director'' are common nouns and therefore should be in lower case when used generically}}". Nothing has changed. We don't capitalize [[vice president]], [[prime minister]], [[grand duke]] and [[lord mayor]], so why this one? I suggest a speedy close of this, since it doesn't have a [[WP:SNOW]]ball's chance of success. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 06:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
::But, isn't this about the article title? not the content. See [[Prime Minister of Canada]], [[Deputy Prime Minister of Canada]], [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom]], [[Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom]], etc etc.[[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 07:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
:::An article's title is part of its content, and per [[WP:TITLEFORMAT]], Wikipedia article titles are in [[sentence case]], not [[title case]]. A formal title "where the position/office is a ''globally unique'' title" is a different matter{{snd}} this discussion is about the generic position, not a full formal title like "Prime Minister of Canada", and there is only one person holding the office of Prime Minister of Canada at any given moment, while there are many members of parliament. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 07:15, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
::::I'm sticking to my position. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:45, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Shouldn't Parliament be treated as a proper noun here? [[User talk:Calidum|<span style="color:#01796F; font-family:serif">'''''Calidum'''''</span>]] 14:34, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
::That's a good question to think about, but I don't think so, because this could refer to any parliament, and there are many parliaments, so the article is about parliaments in general rather than a unique body. Something is a proper noun only if it identifies a globally unique thing. In the context of a particular parliament, we seem to capitalize it{{snd}} [[Member of Parliament (United Kingdom)]], [[Member of Parliament (Canada)]], [[Member of Parliament (India)]], etc., but this is about the generic concept of a member of any parliament. I'm tempted to ping some Wikipedians who have more expertise on this than I do, but I don't want to be accused of canvassing to solicit support for my own opinion. I have included it in the list at the top of [[WT:MOSCAPS]] where all current capitalization discussions are listed. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 16:09, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' at best the sources provided provide evidence that specific houses of parliaments should be considered proper nouns though evidence provided at [[Talk:Member of parliament#Requested move: let's get our facts straight]] shows that reliable aren’t consistent treating them as proper nouns. Also, no evidence has been provided that the general term has ever been treated as a proper noun. Finally, the current title is constant with articles such as [[Vice president]], [[Rear admiral]], [[Attorney general]],[[Secretary of state]], [[Supreme court]] and most relevant [[International parliament]].--[[Special:Contributions/67.70.100.169|67.70.100.169]] ([[User talk:67.70.100.169|talk]]) 18:51, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[MOS:JOBTITLES]], even if we capitalize specific positions (even though I'm not sure we should) this is clearly generic as it doesn't even refer to a specific position never mind a specific person like "President Nixon". '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Weak Oppose''' it does look a bit weird (and it is weird that it is different from [[Member of Parliament (United Kingdom)]]) but it is correct as-is. We don't capitalize this as a job title (per Crouch, Swale and others), it would only be capitalized where "parliament" is capitalized, which only happens when it refers to a specific Parliament. [[User:力]] (powera, [[User talk:力|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/力|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 22:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': This is about the general concept of members of parliaments, not any specific parliament. [[Member of Parliament (United Kingdom)]] is as it should be, because that's a specific parliament, but this should remain lower case; it's a common noun. [[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike ]]|[[User talk:SchreiberBike#top| ⌨ ]] 22:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': Per {{U|SchreiberBike}} and [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] etc. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 06:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' See reasoning of BarrelProof from MOS and SchreiberBike's description Signed, [[User:I Am Chaos|I Am Chaos]] ([[User talk:I Am Chaos|talk]]) 07:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per BarrelProof. No specific parliament is being referred to. '''[[User:LSGH|LSGH]]''' ([[User talk:LSGH|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/LSGH|contributions]]) 15:23, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
'''Comment''' I would have preferred to see some reliable sources, which is what we are supposed to be following. I concede that the sources I have presented refer to a particular parliament but they do not refer to a particular member, and yet member is still capitalised. In addition, can anyone explain why, in this same article, Member of Congress and Senate Parliamentarian (both job titles) retain their capitals? Thanks --[[User:Ykraps|Ykraps]] ([[User talk:Ykraps|talk]]) 08:44, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
:Anomalies that can be corrected. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 12:40, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
::Agree, those should be moved to, many sources over capitalize but we follow the standard English capitalization rules unless there's strong evidence to say otherwise, so far it doesn't seem to be because the overcapitalization at least seems to be for specific positions while this article is clearly a generic concept. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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