Talk:Alternative medicine/Archive 30

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False definition

"Alternative medicine is any practice that aims to achieve the healing effects of medicine, but which lacks biological plausibility and is untested, untestable or proven ineffective."

Alternative Medicine is simply referred to those treatments not in the mainstream of allopathic medicine. Traditional Chinese Medicine, for example, has been tested for thousands of years and clinically proven effective for centuries. The medical system has its complex anatomy and biological knowledge ahead of our time that scientists still yet to discover. It has the wisdom to treat a person as whole in a "natural" way, which means treating the core issues or the cause of the disease by looking into every aspect of mind and body possible, treating the often untreatable by "medical science", and not relying on long-term prescription drugs that covers the symptoms but cause side-effects. That's why millions of people turn to "Alternative Medicine" for different options of treatment that could be more effective in treating pain or chronical disease, for example. Not only it's clinically proven effective, but when allopathy medicine is not able to do no harm or without drugs. 67.174.218.173 (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

A very experienced wiki editor once said to me that you only need three things to edit wikipedia successfully. Sources, sources and sources. That's what you need, because we wont take the word of a stranger on the internet as evidence. See WP:RS. and for this topic, WP:MEDRS. Thanks. -Roxy the dog. wooF 12:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually the anon's first sentence was spot-on, but it went downhill from there. The simplest definition of alternative medicine is any practice not in the mainstream of science-based modern medicine. That includes practices that lack plausibility, are untested, untestable, or ineffective, but doesn't mean that all such practices suffer from those faults.

There are examples of practices once considered "alternative" that are now accepted as effective for certain things. For example, acupuncture can be effective in treating certain specific conditions, and some herbal remedies are recognized as effective in specific cases (e.g. ginger for motion sickness).

That lead sentence is not only unsourced, but violates WP:LEAD in that it does not correctly summarize what the body of the article says. In fact, the body of the article goes to some length on that, saying instead that "alternative medicine" includes practices in which effectiveness hasn't been established scientifically, or that the theory and practice isn't part of biomedicine, in addition to practices that blatantly contradict evidence and scientific principles.

The lead sentence needs to be rewritten to bring it into compliance with WP:LEAD. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

The topic of this article is really broad and the definition should be defined that way in the lead and the body, using the best sources available (not Skeptic's dictionaries and what not). Right now, the article has logical inconsistencies that will inevitably confuse the reader. "Alternative medicine can never be effective in treating anything. Except when it is effective. But then it wouldn't be alternative. But it is alternative. And alternative medicine can never be effective in treating anything..." Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Bad summary, but I'll give you points for trying. -- Valjean (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

@Valjean: If I read about Spinal Manipulation Therapy on Wikipedia, I'll find out that it's an Alternative Medicine AND that most studies suggest [spinal manipulation] achieves equivalent or superior improvement in pain and function when compared with other commonly used interventions. But if I read about alternative medicine, I'll learn that anything classified as alternative medicine by definition does not have a healing or medical effect. You see the logical inconsistency? What part of this is a "bad summary?" Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

This is getting into FORUM territory, so feel free to use my talk page. I will leave this clarification: We do not have an article about Spinal Manipulation Therapy at Wikipedia, and our Spinal manipulation article says "spinal manipulation was no more effective than other commonly used therapies". We also have a related article about Spinal adjustment, which is the AM variant practiced by chiropractors. It encompasses spinal manipulation and a whole host of other weird practices, some where the body is hardly even touched and the hands are not used, in favor of various mechanical and/or electric gizmos. The claims also range from the somewhat sensible to the esoteric religious "cure all" type. FYI, I am professionally trained and certified in manual therapies, including joint manipulation and spinal manipulation techniques. -- Valjean (talk) 02:39, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this is a false definition. Integrative Medicine redirects here and is an approved board certification under the American Board of Physician Specialties Integrative Medicine Board Certification | ABPS (abpsus.org) Integrative Medicine focuses on the whole person, with decisions about prevention and treatment made based on medical evidence. It also makes use of all appropriate therapeutic approaches, healthcare modalities, and disciplines to achieve optimal health and healing.What Is the ABOIM? | ABPS (abpsus.org) I'm very new to editing Wikipedia but have loved it for a long time and have never had an article make me so upset as this article makes me. I wish I knew how to make the changes I think it needs but I'm hoping this is the first step. I think this article should be flagged as controversial. What if the main title for the article is Integrative Medicine and alternative medicine is just a subsection? FloresTindall (talk) 22:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Flores, I can understand your frustration. This is a broad topic. CAM and Integrative Medicine (IM) are explained near the top. They ARE alternative medicine (AM) (exact same), but when it is used "along with" effective mainstream medicine.

Used alone, AM is not proven effective. For cancer, Norwegian research showed that using AM together with mainstream medicine produced worse outcomes. Search the article for Norwegian or Norway and read the source.

That's why the redirects point here. AM, CAM, and IM are all explained here.

Any change to the lead should be discussed here first. When a consensus for change is reached, then it will happen. -- Valjean (talk) 22:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I am faculty at a family medicine residency and the integrative medicine curriculum director and I disagree with you that "CAM and Integrative Medicine...ARE alternative medicine (exact same)" The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health also disagrees as evidenced by their article Complementary, Alternative, or Integrative Health: What’s In a Name? | NCCIH (nih.gov) which clearly explains the differences. I have written their Press Office to inform them of the false definition and inaccurate portrayal on Wikipedia with the ask that they help to advocate for changes to this page. I think the best title would be Integrative Health, and if it is necessary to keep Alternative Medicine as the title, then I think we need to separate them and make Integrative Health its own page. The NCCIH writes that "Integrative health brings conventional and complementary approaches together in a coordinated way. Integrative health also emphasizes multimodal interventions, which are two or more interventions such as conventional medicine, lifestyle changes, physical rehabilitation, psychotherapy, and complementary health approaches in various combinations, with an emphasis on treating the whole person rather than, for example, one organ system. Integrative health aims for well-coordinated care among different providers and institutions by bringing conventional and complementary approaches together to care for the whole person." Complementary, Alternative, or Integrative Health: What’s In a Name? | NCCIH (nih.gov) It is interesting that Lifestyle Medicine is a separate wikipedia page that is portrayed in a positive light when lifestyle medicine is a key foundational component of integrative health (see definition above) but is not referenced on this page at all. Your one example of an article where a type of AM produced worse outcomes does not mean that AM as a whole is not proven effective. There are many components to AM, CAM, IM and each individual modality has its own evidence, some with better evidence than others, but you can't throw out all as being ineffective when many modalities have robust evidence supporting them. FloresTindall (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@FloresTindall: Wikipedia has WP:RULES. Our rules might not be to your liking. E.g. NCCIH is widely considered a dubious source around here, i.e. it is seen as a pro-quackery apologetics organization. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I read the WP:RULES you reference and I don't see why NCCIH is considered a "dubious source" or how it is appropriate to call a government agency a "pro-quackery apologetics organization." Your statement clearly has a lot of bias which is something I thought was something Wikipedia tries to avoid. The University of Arizona defines "Integrative Medicine (IM) is healing-oriented medicine that takes account of the whole person, including all aspects of lifestyle. It emphasizes the therapeutic relationship between practitioner and patient, is informed by evidence, and makes use of all appropriate therapies." What is Integrative Medicine?: Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine (arizona.edu) Is that a source you consider credible? Or maybe Mayo Clinic Integrative medicine - Mayo Clinic Mayo Clinic Minute: What is integrative health and how can it help? - Mayo Clinic News Network FloresTindall (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Served with WP:GOODBIAS at your own talk page. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The NCCIH was originally the OAM (Office of Alternative Medicine) under the NIH. That wasn't the NIH's idea, it was set up by a US Senator who was a fan of chiropractic (the 'cure any disease with manipulations' kind). The only reason that it is a separate from the NIH now is that when the NIH director tried to hold them to basic scientific standards the same senator got upset and spun them out to be independent (and thus not answerable to anyone but Congress, which in practice means not answerable to anyone). Given the history it should not be surprising that they aren't regarded as a reliable source, and just because a government puts a stamp of approval on something doesn't mean that it works - after all, India has a government agency that says putting coconut oil in your nose will help prevent COVID infection. MrOllie (talk) 01:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

FloresTindall, let me bring you up to speed with some important things you need to know:

1. Please read the Definitions and terminology section, where we discuss Complementary or integrative medicine and the Challenges in defining alternative medicine. It's a huge topic, so we attack it from many angles, and some may contradict each other. That's because various RS do so. Content is not based on the opinions of editors, even though we may express them on the talk page. When editing we leave that behind. Content is based on a wide variety of RS.
2. Integrative Medicine used to be a separate article, but the community decided it was better to integrate it here. It was never a large article, and only a community consensus would allow it to be started up again as a separate article. The same applies to Complementary medicine.
3. Please avoid any argument from authority. We do not regard some editors as better than others just because of their educational status. I have two medical educations and my wife has three, but even an uneducated, medically ignorant, editor who abides by our WP:PAG has just as many rights as I enjoy. The same applies to the many MDs and PhDs who edit this article. For example, we had to block a Nobel Prize winner because he would not follow our rules. That was sad, but we had to do it. He insisted that his greater knowledge (than maybe anyone else on Earth!) gave him the right to not depend on independent RS. Nope. That's not how we roll here. We have many physicians, researchers, Nobel laureates, Presidents of national medical societies, and other extremely qualified people working here, and most do so using pseudonyms for very good reasons. The internet is a dangerous place, and Wikipedia's open environment makes editors vulnerable to real life problems and professional embarrassment. I, for one, will do all I can to protect your real-life identity, but you must also be careful to not divulge anything. This article is currently watched by 801 editors, and many are professionals who know the subject, literature, research, history, and controversies. This talk page is where we civilly discuss our differences, and believe me, we do have them!
4. All aspects of the subject must be covered, including opinions and criticism. That means that non-neutral words and POV from RS are used. It is only editors who must be neutral, not sources or content. I have written an essay about how we deal with biased sources and NPOV: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. It may help you understand this confusing topic. How can Wikipedia be neutral and yet have biased wordings and content? That's partially because around here "neutral" doesn't have the exact same meaning as elsewhere.
5. Wikipedia's medical articles have a higher standard for medical information sourcing than the sourcing standards for other articles. That's because that type of information must also meet the high bar of WP:MEDRS. That means we normally can't cite single studies but must cite reviews and meta-analyses of many good quality studies. This prevents editors from cherry-picking and violating our rules about WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. That also means we have higher standards than even the best medical journals, and we include far more than just the normal medical and scientific facts they include; we include all aspects of the subject, and historical and popular sources that are not governed by MEDRS can be used for such information. Our medical articles are now so good that most physicians use Wikipedia as their first source for medical information, and, done properly, that's okay. (That's a big caveat there! There are also cautions to observe.) Check out the articles found here.
6. We prefer that most content is from secondary and tertiary sources, not primary sources, although that is allowed in certain situations. It is the coverage in those secondary sources that tells us how much WP:Due weight to give a piece of information.

Enough for now. Feel free to use my talk page. -- Valjean (talk) 02:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

While a lot of this is difficult to understand I think I got the overall message. How does Wikipedia deal with articles that are subscription only access?

This article is Peer-reviewed and published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine where they used a systematic process to develop a definition of Integrative Health. Is this something we would be able to reference in some form here?

Defining Health in a Comprehensive Context: A New Definition of Integrative Health. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 2017-07-01, Volume 53, Issue 1, Pages 134-137, Copyright © 2017 American Journal of Preventive Medicine FloresTindall (talk) 19:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

On your first question, see WP:PAYWALL. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we can use it in spite of the paywall. (Please provide the exact wording below so we can turn it into a usable reference.) We will often provide such information as an attributed self-definition, whether or not it is objective, self-promotional, or outright pushes nonsense or quackery. (I am only speaking of general principles, not accusing the AJPM of such a thing.) That does not mean it will become the definition used in the WP:LEAD of this article, as the LEAD is a summary of the whole article, so definitions there are often a summary of lots of content and multiple definitions found in the body of the article. As such, it does not have to be limited to a definition provided by the organization. (As for AM, there is no "organization" to make such a definition.) That's why the heading for this thread is misleading and misses the point. A summary definition is just a summary, not a "false definition". The lead summarizes AM, not just IM or CAM. -- Valjean (talk) 19:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Remove unprofessional words/provocative language

This isn't a forum for your opinions (WP:NOTFORUM)

Many GP use homoeopathic remedies in their day today practice. They are finding integrating remedies is beneficial to the patient and NHS in many ways. Some are even taking up courses to use more homoeopathic remedies because they see the effectiveness when correctly prescribed.There must be something in this system for sure which has not been updated. It is high time we give this science it’s due respect and stop using provocative language like pseudo, quackery, . Using such words is unprofessional and insulting to scientific minds.I request to confirm facts from right sources not on individual opinions for the better of humanity 86.190.168.98 (talk) 09:51, 16 March 2022 (UTC) PLease provide proper sources for your claims. Nillurcheier (talk) 09:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Skeptics dictionary for acronym sCAM

This existing article citation here which links to the Skepdic's Dictionary as a source for an acronym is unencyclopedic and warrants removal. The other source doesn't mention the acronym "sCAM" in the section that is accessible to review via the linked url. If it does actually appear in the text of the full article, a quote as part of the citation would be a wise beginning. The sentence describing this acronym is WP:UNDUE. Cedar777 (talk) 23:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Cedar777, thank you for starting this thread. The Skeptic's Dictionary is a good source for alternative medicine and other pseudoscience topics, and one sentence can hardly be "undue" as NPOV/balance requires the skeptical POV must be mentioned. The very first sentence in the second source (Medicine, Health Care and Philosophy) says: "In recent years so-called Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) practices..."

Here's our long-standing current version:

"It has also been called sCAM or SCAM with the addition of "so-called" or "supplements".

I suspect that someone has added a bit to that over the years, as I don't see "supplements" in the source, and without a RS that should be removed. I have often seen sCAM and SCAM with that word used to explain it by people who don't know the origins of sCAM. (Neither Carroll nor Ernst are the originators.) The original version is "so-Called Alternative Medicine (sCAM)", but the source for that version is not reliable enough for use here.

What about this version, with an added descriptive source and the sources in the right spots?

"The phrase CAM has been described as "so-called Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM)", while The Skeptic's Dictionary adds their skeptical touch to the acronym: "sCAM: so-called Complementary & Alternative Medicine", directly alluding to the word scam to describe the skepticism toward CAM from mainstream medicine because of the "lack of scientific rigor of 'complementary' treatments".

Other sources which refer to the book by Edzard Ernst: [1][2] -- Valjean (talk) 00:51, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

User:Harold the Sheep, in your edit summary you reveal a negative attitude toward "non-neutral sources". As an editor at Wikipedia, especially with the clear wordings in NPOV about source neutrality, where on earth do you get such an attitude and why should it have anything to do with edits? You should know better. -- Valjean (talk) 15:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The word “non-neutral” isn’t essential to the point being made. It was an allusion to your comment to Cedar777. Harold the Sheep (talk) 22:36, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Harold the Sheep is right. It's quite a stretch to say that something "has been described as" because one guy called it that in his book and on his self-published blog. These sources are not good or numerous, so what's the point other than to add one more little "gotcha!" to an article that already reads like a public service announcement? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Ernst isn't just "one guy", but the first professor of CAM in the world and a renowned subject matter expert. It's rare to have a science-based expert dealing with the controversial border issues between fringe medicine and mainstream medicine in an academic setting, one who possesses a background and personal experience from both worlds. NPOV and balance means we include both sides of the story, and this provides the mainstream side. We are a mainstream encyclopedia. -- Valjean (talk) 16:10, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not convinced, Valjean, sorry. Are you saying this article is one-sided in favor of alternative medicine? Are you also saying that this one guy (he's still just one guy) gets to plug his book, because he's a a professor who came up with a cute acronym? What you're suggesting is that IN WIKIPEDIA'S VOICE, we write that all of CAM is also referred to as SCAM. Is it? Who is calling it that? This one guy called it that? Oh, but he speaks for all of "mainstream science". He does? Who said he does? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

He did not come up with the acronym, and we aren't saying it in wikivoice. We are attributing it to the sources (plural) and anyone can see who wrote about it, which is more than Edzard Ernst. We're also citing Harriet Hall, who is also a subject matter expert. We can always name them if you feel that would be better, and the wording can be tweaked. Try to improve it per WP:PRESERVE. We are supposed to try to improve and keep long-standing content. -- Valjean (talk) 00:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

While a self-described "irreverent" guide may be entertaining to some readers, it does not reflect the kind of sourcing warranted here. A few web blogs use the acronym sCAM or SCAM for derogatory criticism only. That acronym is nowhere close to being in widespread usage. A more globally relevant source defining the common terminology is the World Health Organization (WHO), which reviewed 150+ member states in their 2019 report on Traditional and Complementary Medicine. In the 2019 study's glossary, the acronym CAM is defined as "The terms “complementary medicine” and “alternative medicine” refer to a broad set of health care practices that are not part of that country’s own traditional or conventional medicine and are not fully integrated into the dominant health care system. They are used interchangeably with traditional medicine in some countries."

In the report Legal Status of Traditional Medicine and Complementary/Alternative Medicine: A Worldwide Review from 2001 w/ 120+ member states, WHO defines Complementary/Alternative medicine as

The terms “complementary medicine” and “alternative medicine” are used interchangeably with “traditional medicine” in some countries. Complementary/alternative medicine often refers to traditional medicine that is practised in a country but is not part of the country’s own traditions. As the terms “complementary” and “alternative” suggest, they are sometimes used to refer to health care that is considered supplementary to allopathic medicine. However, this can be misleading. In some countries, the legal standing of complementary/alternative medicine is equivalent to that of allopathic medicine, many practitioners are certified in both complementary/alternative medicine and allopathic medicine, and the primary care provider for many patients is a complementary/alternative practitioner.

Practicies and laws vary considerably accross the globe. For the UK, the 2001 report says the country has "public-sector hospitals for complementary/alternative medicine" and the 2019 report states that "traditional and complementary medicine is integrated into the national health policy". The 2019 report also states that herbal medicines are sold with medical claims in Germany, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland, and Australia among others. Four countires (India, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka) offer a degree in Ayurveda, a practice that is "well integrated into the national health care system and recognized by the government of India".

This article currently devotes only a tiny space to covering what CAM is, what its forms are, where its practiced, if its growing, and how it's regulated around the world. If CAM and/or integrated medicine was a seperate article page with the space to cover the topic in depth, including a breakdown of the range of its forms along with summaries of the evolving legal and regulatory status of these forms throughout the world, then including the perspective of specific American skeptics and critics might be DUE. However, it is clearly an opinion position and should be framed as such, i.e. "Robert T. Carroll, author of The Skeptic's Dictionary, and Mark Crislip an infectious disease doctor and alterntive medicine critic/blogger/podcaster strenously reject integrating alternative medicine into mainstream medicine and refer to CAM as SCAM."

The other source from Medicine, Health Care and Philosophy that had appeared alongside the Skeptics Dictionary, does not use anything other than CAM for an acronym. It just doesn't link up the letters. Implying that it does is SYNTH. Cedar777 (talk) 02:14, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I basically agree with your point that a separate article for CAM might be warranted but it has been rejected in favor of a redirect to this page where it is mentioned but not in the in-depth manner the subject deserves. That doesn't mean you can't move the consensus toward accepting it. Why not start a draft in your userspace at User:Cedar777/CAM_draft? Develop it there and then propose it here? -- Valjean (talk) 15:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

References

To avoid edit warring, let's discuss this removal

My removal of content in this diff, was reverted by Roxy_the_Dog. The reason for that removal was that you have three quotes saying the almost exact same thing: "if it worked it would just be "medicine". I removed the two quotes that were not from people in the medical field (an entertainer, and a journalist), and retained the one by the doctor. That seems reasonable to me, but clearly Roxy feels differently. I'd love to hear why three almost word-for-word quotes belong next to each other, two of which are medical statements made by lay people help the article, when the one quote by the doctor would be plenty sufficient to make the point. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Pyrrho the Skipper, I agree that Angell is one of the more qualified here. I read Angell's interview transcript from PBS yesterday and found that she had far more insightful things to contribute than her existing quote on the Alternative Medicine page where it is 1 of 4 quotes repeating nearly the same thing. If her image is being used as the face of something, it logically follows that her expertise is represented at some length, preferably paraphrased. Angell also elaborated on the sociological and psychological aspects of CAM, something that a quality article would address, preferably sourced to peer-reviewed journals. Minchin is an entertainer, not a subject matter expert in medicine. There is no need to cite a 10 minute YouTube video of a rant and call it a high quality source. It simply isn't one. Cedar777 (talk) 18:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Pyrrho, this is not a real "medical field", and there is no requirement that we only use content from medical sources or medical authorities. It's a pseudoscientific field pretending to be medicine. If this were a strictly medical subject, the sourcing requirements would be higher, but this is a topic covered by WP:PARITY, and commentary from all types of RS is allowed because mainstream authorities rarely comment on these things. Read that and you'll see that other types of sources are expressly allowed for this type of subject. Minchin comes from a medical family and is known for his insightful commentary as a popular comic who deals with serious issues, hence accuracy is important. The reason his quote is notable is that he summarizes the issues in a more succinct manner than anyone else and in a way they do not do. Using only the "doctor" source leaves the impression of a lone critic, but using several different types of critics leaves the right impression. The scientific skeptic community deserves representation as they are the main critics of AM.

I definitely agree about Angell. She has had an illustrious and highly-respected career. Her NEJM article is spot on. Fontanarosa and Lundberg share her views. -- Valjean (talk) 19:22, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

leaves the right impression The right impression according to who? You? Please remember that Wikipedia is a collaboration. Others have agreed with me, and others have agreed with you on this matter. Your comment assumes that your opinion on how an article should be written (not the subject itself) is the only correct opinion. But several editors disagree with you. Just as several disagree with me. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

And a link relevant to the general discussion: transcript of "lyrics" for Minchin's YouTube video. The gist of it (for those who don't want to sit through a 10 minute video rant or read the transcript) is that Minchin is really, really, really irritated by a female guest at a dinner party and decides to go a tirade. (His wife and the female host aren't thrilled to see him struggle and fail to contain his emotional outburst.) Other comments from the Minchin video where he addresses this woman include: "here's what gives me a hard-on" and "sharing curries and getting shitty at good-looking hippies with fairies on their spines and butterflies on their titties". Gee, why leave these gems on the cutting room floor?

Describing Angel as having an "illustrious and highly-respected career" doesn't match the action of using her face of respectability as an article image for a series of repetitive quotes that are ultimately capped off with Minchin. At least display Angel's mind at some length along with her image. Minchin's video belongs on his own page, not here. Cedar777 (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Valjean named the alternative: the impression of a lone critic. Valjean is right: this reasoning is very common, and having it once could give the wrong impression that it is not. You seem to be saying that you and the others who have agreed with you want to leave that wrong impression because you think it is not wrong.

Minchin has been pretty influential: I'd say that reasoning was invented by him, at least in this form. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Tim Minchin, by his own admission, is an insignificant, ignorant bit of carbon who gives himself a hard-on by vomiting his bile over dinner guests. While I admire his honesty and certainly agree with his assessment of himself, I'd say the 'reasoning' invented by him in this onanistic rant is not something that has any place in an encyclopedia article on alternative medicine. Harold the Sheep (talk) 04:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm in favor of removing Minchin. I'd be more likely to support inclusion if there were other RS that quote him on it. I'm glad we have PARITY, but we have better sources available and more authoritative voices to highlight. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:32, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I also support the removal of Tim Minchin's views. It's a primary source (even if a 'viral video') given no additional weight. There are surely scores of better sources, scholarly and otherwise. The view that because alternative medicine is is not a 'strictly medical' topic we should lower standards is fallacious. As a comparison, comedian Ricky Gervais is a noted atheist, and a good deal of his material pokes fun at Biblical stories. It would be quite silly however to cite one of his stand-up specials in Noah's Ark on the grounds that "since scientists haven't found it yet, we can pretend to not be a serious encyclopedia." --Animalparty! (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Proof Homoeopathy is not pseudoscience

Proof 19 million users in authentic Homoeopathy alone Post graduate courses in Uk enrolls many GPs in homoeopathic course, No updates based on latest reasearch articles

This is not personal opinion , but bringing to notice facts to preserve authenticity of Wikipedia. 86.190.168.98 (talk) 12:12, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

That isn’t proof. Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

bruh lol Python Drink (talk) 16:16, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Honey for Coughing - Clinical Evidence? Folk Remedy? Alternative Medicine? All of the above?

There is clinical evidence that honey is an effective treatment for coughing, indeed perhaps more effective than some OTC drugs. See e.g. this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264806/ (which itself cites numerous other articles). Honey is also a folk remedy for coughing, has been for a long time. The article on folk remedies is part of the 'alternative medicine' series, the alternative medicine article describes these as 'lacking biological plausibility, testability, repeatability, or evidence from clinical trials'. It is misleading to say all folk remedies fall into these categories. Clearly, the reason you cannot buy honey as a medicine, is because there would be no money in it! I think the way things are presented is an oversimplication, and misleading. 83.252.72.30 (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

This is already covered in the Honey article here. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Request to reconsider Integrative Medicine/Integrative Health having its own page

Hi, All. I'm back. In March, I came here to make the case that Integrative Medicine and Integrative Health is NOT the same thing, nor a re-branding, of Alternative Medicine. I ran out of time because I teach at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania and (and also just finished teaching a course at SPWS in Warsaw, which is why I am coming back in June instead of May). (Someone asked what do I teach, and I teach a variety of courses including Business Leadership, Entrepreneurship, Business Data Management and Information Systems, Project Management, Small Business Management, and many others. I've been teaching at Kutztown for 18 years, and before that had been involved in 4 entrepreneurial startups [two successful, two not-so-much] and a Vice President for two Fortune 500 Financial Firms (MBNA and First USA, now Bank of America and Chase).

While I'm not a medical doctor, I have been involved in Integrative Health and in doing Health Economics Research for many years. I also was in a very bad car accident twenty years ago that forced me to pay attention to integrative medicine since modern western medicine did not have an answer for the type of severe back pain that resulted from the injuries of the accident. Integrative Medicine helped - a lot. That does not make me biased, however, because I am at heart a scientist, and I looked for proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that my situation was not a fluke or a one-off. In 2002 there was very little research on Integrative Medicine. In 2012 when I looked there wasn't too much more. But for the past ten years the amount of research has been building. The research indicates that Integrative Health practices and Integrative Medicine is an effective branch of modern western medicine (despite having its foundations in ancient practices of other cultures). It is my goal to introduce the editors of Wikipedia to that research so that they can understand why it is so important to enable Integrative Medicine to stop being redirected to Alternative Medicine and instead allow it to be a page on its own.

I am a college professor, not a full time Wikipedia editor, so I ask for forgiveness in advance for not knowing all the rules. I've tried to read all the guidelines, but I'm never sure when I'm doing things right, so I ask for your help and support in the logistics of my quest.

It was suggested that I create a first draft for Integrative Medicine (and the redirected Integrative Health) on my own talk page, so that is what I will be doing. I hope to finish it within the next week. In the meantime, feel free to look at the draft I've been working on and provide me with any help/support/suggestions that you would like.

CJ (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

OK. I observe that User:Cjrhoads/Draft Integrative Medicine has no content, so it seems a bit premature to announce it here. Whatever you write there, be sure that any medical claims cite sources that are compliant with WP:MEDRS. That is a pretty high hurdle. It isn't enough to cite individual research studies; the sources need to be surveys of such studies. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to note that I would have used the word "review" instead of "survey" in Anachronist's post above. It has a specific meaning, yes? I look forward with interest to research that indicates that Integrative Health practices and Integrative Medicine is an effective branch of modern western medicine. I do wonder why the research of the last ten years hasn't surfaced on wikipedia yet, given the amount of retrophrenologists, homeopaths, acupuncturists and urine therapists we get around here, all plugging their woo of choice. Sorry for the rant, but sheesh. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:21, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

First - many apologies to all. I was working on my own talk page, not the page you had set up for me. (I'm not very well versed in getting all the details of how Wikipedia works, but I'm doing my best and learning fast. I'd love for you to help me with that part of it)

I now have put the first draft (which is actually my 4th draft, but you didn't see the others) in the right place (I think). User:Cjrhoads/Draft_Integrative_Medicine.

Second - I will review WP:MEDRS and fix whatever doesn't fit. I actually haven't gotten to the actual systematic reviews of the evidence of efficacy yet - I'm still working on that part. For now I just posted links to other sources of information about the systematic reviews and other studies. I would say I've only done about 25% of what I plan to post. But I'd like to get some help and suggestions as I go along instead of waiting until its finished.

Third = please try and keep an open mind. I know that you've been fighting against the "woo of choice" for a very long time. It hasn't been easy for centers for Integrative Medicine to separate the wheat from the chaffe (i.e. valuable therapies that are just now being taught in western medical schools being the wheat, and quackery being the chaffe). But that's where we need to look at the actual research and not rely upon what you may THINK you knew. For example, there is lots of research that shows that acupunture has beneficial effects, so that's integrative medicine. Retrophrenologists and homeopaths and urine therapists and whatever else you may mention has not made the cut, so you need to separate out those. In the last twenty years there's been a concerted effort to figure out what really works, and what doesn't. So please don't diss something until you've read the research on it. :-> CJ (talk) 03:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

CJ, I'll respond to this in more detail when you've started to give us some WP:MEDRS sources, particularly the ones on Acupuncture, but in the meantime please note that if my mind was more open, it would be dribbling out of the holes in my ears !!! - Roxy the bad tempered dog 05:40, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Cjrhoads/Draft Integrative Medicine

@Valjean: I'd like your help on improving this page

@Roxy the dog: I'd like your help on improving this page

@Anachronist: I'd like your help on improving this page

Removal of navbox pages

@AndyTheGrump @Gråbergs Gråa Sång I would like to propose the removal of Oral polio vaccine AIDS hypothesis, Vaccines and autism, MMR vaccine and autism, and GMO conspiracy theories from the alternative medicine navboxes for the same reason as was given aspartame in this discussion. Altanner1991 (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I actually removed GMO before I saw this [3], and my stated reason applies for those others too (unless I missed something with ctrl-f), see also #2 in the numbered list at WP:SIDEBAR. To me however, removing the vaccine ones seems wrong anyway. We'll see if there's more opinions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand: you say "I actually removed GMO ... and my stated reason applies for those others too" but then you also say "To me however, removing the vaccine ones seems wrong anyway.". This seems like the opposite in each sentence. Which position do you apply? Altanner1991 (talk) 18:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable that the vaccine articles stay in the sidebar anyway since the connection to Vaccine hesitancy is strong. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a very good approach, thank you so much. Altanner1991 (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I WP:APPNOTEd Template talk:Alternative medicine sidebar (it's what we're discussing, right?), we may just as well have the discussion here, probably more people watching. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Updating and Improving Alternative Medicine Article so it is not rated as C-Class

Th article Alternative Medicine is rated C Class by Wikipedia. The article needs updating to reflect current literature or reliably sourced perspectives and should become more neutral. The article and the Series needs to distinguish between health practice, medical practice, and medical science. In many cases, the article does not describe the topics as the contemporary practitioners themselves but rather jumps directly to derogatory or pejorative descriptions.

Note that Wikipedia:Quotations policy allows useful short quotations subject to Fair Use criterion when it improves an article.

One example is the article on the National Institute of Health National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) which is called an agency which it is not. The article does not correctly describe the historical progression from starting as an Office and becoming a Center and then being renamed by Congress. The article and Alternative medicine do not reflect the current mission or definitions adopted by the NCCIH. For example under NCCIH Classification, it poorly and non-neutrally presents a 1999 formulation. In 1999 the name was National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) Congress changed the name to NCCIH and Mission in 2014.

Since editing the Alternative Medicine Series is so contentious, a better mechanism is needed for achieving consensus on changes that would get the article to at least a B-Class rating Wikipedia:Content assessment/B-Class criteria

Bbachrac (talk) 23:47, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Major revisions are going to be resisted, so best to take it one edit at a time. Suggest a particular change you'd like to make, explain it, back it up, and build a consensus here on the Talk Page. You are also welcome to be WP:BOLD and make an edit. Just be prepared to come back here and start a discussion if it's reverted. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Pyrrho the Skipper Thanks for your comment. The problem as I see it is even if consensus is achieved on this Talk Page, the Alternative Medicine Series Guardians will undo any attempt at revision. Then what? Bbachrac (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

If the changes get reverted, you didn't actually have a consensus. MrOllie (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@MrOllie Yes, then the attempts at editing becomes a non-convergent series of attempted editing. There is actually no mechanism or process for closure on consensus.Bbachrac (talk) 17:36, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure there is, WP:DR, particularly WP:RFC. I don't recommend you start one here, though. Consensus is pretty firmly against creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE in a false attempt at neutrality on altmed topics. MrOllie (talk) 17:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bbachrac I've had to go through RfC to make what I thought were obvious edits in altmed articles. Sometimes the consensus was for the change, sometimes it wasn't. But if you are truly making a good-faith attempt to improve the article, then I would absolutely encourage you to try. If I support your edit, I would even help create the RfC, if needed. That's the whole point of a community-driven encyclopedia. But right now I don't know what specific changes you'd like to see. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

A reminder to avoid RfCs: WP:RFCBEFORE. They are a last resort. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:17, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@All Thank you for the comments to date. I would like to see the Alternative Medicine series developed to Class B or A, but I think this is undertaking like the The Myth of Sisyphus and I am not sure that is a hill I want to climb. I like the format used by WikiUniversity: as exemplified in the topic "Does objective reality exist?" in developing its topics. Bbachrac (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Bbachrac, I agree that the current state of the Alternative medicine article is not good quality. It is dated and fails to reflect the terminology used by the recent WHO reports and by several recent major mainstream medical centers. Even more concerning is the distorted use of existing sources, e.g. The Atlantic and the NCCIH, to make statements in wiki voice that do not represent the actual content within those sources. I also agree with Pyrrho that focusing on particular changes, one by one, at talk via BRD is a wise approach to improving the page. Regarding your concerns with the outdated information about the NCCIH outlined above, would you be willing to edit the page or propose how the more accurate and current information be incorporated into the article? Cedar777 (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

If that's true, then let's discuss it and make sure those sources are used properly. Provide the exact wording we use, the source, and describe the problem. Let's fix it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay I will do it, but I don't have time today, so later this week. I will create a Sandbox for discussion. Thanks for comments. {You might appreciate UC Berkeley Understanding Science. I have been sending the link to all my grandkids.} Bbachrac (talk) 16:56, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Conclusion on 4 November 2022
After further consideration, I have decided to put aside the objective of contributing to making Wikipedia less ideological and non-neutral in many of the health-related articles. I therefore will not be following through on editing subjects in the Wikipedia “Alternative Medicine” project. As with all other information sources, individuals will need to sort out for themselves the credibility of any particular article. Hopefully anyone coming to Wikipedia will for themselves go directly to active sources.

I arrived at this position by comparing the way Wikipedia treats the NIH National Center for Advancing Translational Sciences compared to its own web-site NCATS, and what Wikipedia does to The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) which conducts and supports evaluation research and provides information about complementary health products and practices.

I also found the thoughtful 2001 conference summary, “A critique on complementary and alternative medicine” by Kenneith I Shine, MD, then , President, Institute of Medicine, of the National Academy of Sciences, published in The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, Volume 7, Supplement 1, 2001, pp. S-145–S-152, Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. DOI:10.1089/107555301753393922. Unfortunately, this article is behind a paywall. 

Abstract

“Modern medicine regularly uses the products of science to improve health. Until recently, however, medicine itself has not been practiced in a scientific manner. The growth of evidence-based medicine is predicated upon the concept that insofar as possible, all aspects of medical care ought to be examined with regard to the evidence. All forms of treatments and preventive strategies should be subjected to assessments of efficacy and effectiveness. Efficacy is demonstrated in the day-to-day practice of medicine. An evaluation of effectiveness may lead to one or more randomized clinical trials, where the results of these randomized clinical trials may be necessary to maximize effectiveness. From a health care perspective, safety must be assessed, not only with regard to adverse effects of the particular intervention, but also in the context of a comparison to alternative treatments. If evidence demonstrates the efficacy and/or effectiveness of a particular intervention, it may be unsafe to select a treatment for which evidence of efficacy or effectiveness is lacking. Certainly, patients should be fully informed of the evidence that is available for making rational choices. Alternative and complementary modes of medicine should be subject to these principles. The history of digitalis glycosides provides an interesting example of an important treatment arising from herbal medicine, by which many of these elements can be exemplified.”

Wikipedia articles unfortunately do not contribute neutrally to the ongoing exploration of health care topics or convey the evolution of thinking in the medical community.

You might find of interest John M Byrne MD YouTube 2019 talk and article Skeptical Medicine: Critical Thinking in Medicine,

To conclude, I do not advocate for complementary health practices and if they can afford access, individuals should first seek help from what is in artfully called “conventual medicine”. Individuals also need to advocate their health for themselves, because at least in the United States, their science based conventional physicians or health care providers don’t necessarily get to the right treatment for whatever is the problem. Bbachrac (talk) 18:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

An excellent outcome. - Roxy the dog 04:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)