Talk:Yemenite Hebrew

Suggestion for transliteration?

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Actually there's more then one dialect of Yemenite Hebrew, thus there's more then 1 way to transliterate it. Here's a highly respected transliterated system. In Yemenite Hebrew the re's also strong 'he. א ’A′leph ’ (In Hebrew ’a′leph is not a vowel but a consonant and has no true equivalent in English. It is transliterated in writing by a raised comma (’). As pronounced in Hebrew it is the softest of guttural sounds (that is, sounds pronounced in the throat) and is like the slight guttural sound given to the silent “h” at the beginning of the English word “hour,” or like with the second “o” in “cooperate.”) ? Behth b ב v (It has a labial sound similar to the English “b” when a dot is placed in the middle of this Hebrew character to harden the letter’s pronunciation. Without the dot it has a softer sound close to “v,” as in the word “vine.”) ? Gi′mel g (corresponds generally to the English “g” when it has within it the point (daghesh lene); but without this point it is pronounced softer, more down in the throat. (Yemenite Hebrew of Shar'abi is J, Ji'mel) ג gh ? Da′leth d ד dh ה He’ h’ (Medium guttural- guttural sound somewhere between the softer ’a′leph and the harsher chehth. It thus corresponds generally to the English “h” and is similar to the sound of “h” in the word “behind.”) ו Waw w (In pronunciation this letter corresponds generally to the English “w,” as in “wine”; at times, however, in modern Hebrew it is given the sound of English “v.” In this work it is transliterated as “w” (ו), “u” (?), and “oh” (ו). It is rarely used as an initial letter, usually being substituted for by the letter yohdh (י). ) ז Za′yin z (It corresponds generally to the English letter “z”) ח Chehth ch’’ (This letter is the harshest of the guttural sounds and is similar to the sound of “ch,” as in the Scottish word loch or the German ach. In the Hebrew, in the eighth section of Psalm 119 (vss 57-64) every verse begins with this letter. In this work it is transliterated as ch to denote strong aspiration.) ט Tehth t (The sound represented by the letter corresponds to an emphatic English “t,” produced by pressing the tongue strongly against the palate. Its sound differs from that of the letter taw [ת] primarily because of its lack of aspiration after the “t” sound. In the original Hebrew, it appears at the beginning of each verse of Psalm 119:65-72.) י Yohdh y (The name of the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet, i·o′ta, evidently is akin to the Hebrew yohdh.) ? Kaph k (The 11th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In sound kaph corresponds to kh when not having the point (daghesh lene) in it; but with this point in it (?), it becomes hard like the English “k.” In ) כ Final: ך kh (Soft) ל La′medh l (La′medh corresponds generally to the English “l.” ) מ Final: ם Mem m נ Final: ן Nun n ס Sa′mekh s ע ‛A′yin ‛ (It represents a peculiar guttural sound pronounced at the back of the throat and has no equivalent in English. It is transliterated as ‛.) ? Pe’ p פ Final: ף ph/f צ Final: ץ Tsa·dheh′ ts (It has a strong hissing sound similar to the sound of “ts” in English.) ק Qohph q (The sound is stronger than that of the letter kaph [כ] and is pronounced farther back in the throat, as a strong English “q” formed at the back of the palate. In Shar'abi it is a deep g.) ר Rehsh r ש Sin s (More hissing like is comparsion to sa'mekh) ? Shin sh (More hissing like is comparsion to sa'mekh) ? Taw t ת th Full Vowels ָ (long) Qa′mets a as in awl ַ Pa′thach a as in father ֵ (long) Tse′reh e as in they ֶ Se′ghohl e as in men ִ Chi′req i as in machine ֹ (long) Choh′lem o as in no ָ Qa′mets Cha·tuph′ o as in nor ֻ Qib·buts′ u as in full ִ Shu′req u as in cruel Half Vowels ְ Shewa’′ e obscure, as in "average"; or silent, as in "made" ֲ Cha·teph′ Pa′thach a as in hat ֱ Cha·teph′ Se′ghohl e as in met ֳ Cha·teph′ Qa′mets o as in not Special Combinations י ָ = ai י ִ = i י ַ = ai ו = oh י ֵ = eh  ? = u י ֶ = ey וי ָ = av (Information for those who know Spanish sounds) א ’Á·lef ’ ? Behth b ב v ? Guí·mel g (gu, antes de e o i) ג gh ? Dá·leth d ד dh ה He’ h’ ו Waw w ז Zá·yin z ח Jehth j ט Tehth t י Yohdh y ? Kaf k כ Final: ך kj’’ ל Lá·medh l מ Final: ם Mem m נ Final: ן Nun n ס Sá·mekj s ע ‛Á·yin ‛ ? Pe’ p פ Final: ף f צ Final: ץ Tsa·dhéh ts ק Qohf q (Shar'abi es g) ר Rehsch r ש Sin s ? Schin sch ? Taw t ת th Vocales plenas ? ָ (larga) Qá·mets a ? ַ Pá·thaj a ? ֵ (larga) Tsé·reh e ? ֶ Sé·ghohl e ? ִ Jí·req i ? ֹ (larga) Jóh·lem o ? ָ Qá·mets Ja·túf o ? ֻ Qib·búts u ? ִ Schú·req u Vocales muy breves ? ְ Schewá’ e indistinta o muda ? ֲ Ja·téf Pá·thaj a ? ֱ Ja·téf Sé·ghohl e ? ֳ Ja·téf Qá·mets o Combinaciones especiales י? ָ = ai י? ִ = i י? ַ = ai ו = oh י? ֵ = eh  ? = u י? ֶ = ei וי? ָ = av --72.38.211.144 (talk) 23:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC) I don't find this table very helpful: it mixes up Yemenite with Sephardic pronunciations. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 08:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC) Please explain--Standforder (talk) 22:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC) The sounds it gives for the beghadhkephath letters are Yemenite. The sounds it gives for the vowels (especially segol and holam) are Sephardi and not Yemenite (in Yemenite, segol is æ and holam is either ö or ē). The sound it gives for sheva na is Ashkenazi and Israeli. As a whole, with the exception of qamatz it corresponds with the reconstructed Hebrew pronunciation in classical Hebrew grammars such as Davidson, which is not used in any community. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 14:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Try this: א ’Alaf ’ as h in honor בּ Be b in boy ב Ve v in vine גּ Jimal j in judge ג Ghimal gh as g in Spanish amigo דּ Dol d in door ד Dhol dh as th in this ה He h in hay ו Wow w in will ז Zan z in zero ח Ḥet ḥ as Arabic ح ט Ṭet ṭ as Arabic ط י Yöd y in yes כּ,ךּ Kaf k in king כ,ך Chaf ch in loch ל Lamad l in look מ,ם Mim m in mouse נ,ן Nun n in now ס Sămoch s in sun ע ‘An ‘ as Arabic ع פּ,ףּ Pe p in pen פ,ף Fe f in farm צ,ץ Ṣad ṣ as Arabic ص ק Göf g in girl ר Resh r in rain (technically as Arabic ر) שׁ Shin sh in shy שׂ Sin s in sun תּ Tow t in time ת Thow th in thin סּ Doghesh Ḥozog doubles the consonant. אָ Gomeṣ o in for אַ Pattaḥ a in father or bat אֵ,אֵי Ṣeri e in they אֶ,אֶי Pattaḥ Săghul a in father or bat אֹ,אוֹ Ḥölam ö in Parisian French port אִ,אִי Ḥirag i in field אֻ Shurag Gibbuṣ u in rule or bull אוּ Shurag u in rule or bull סְ Shăwo No‘ sounds like an ultrashort Pattaḥ or other short vowel depending on context (write ă, ĕ, ĭ, ŏ, or ŭ). אֳ Shăwo Gomeṣ sounds like an ultrashort Gomeṣ (write ŏ). אֲ Shăwo Pattaḥ and אֱ Shăwo Săghul sound like an ultrashort Pattaḥ (write ă). This is only one variety of Yemenite pronunciation; there are others that are slightly different. Squee3 (talk) 03:47, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Question concerning the removal of vital source

User:AntonSamuel, shalom. I noticed where you removed an important source (written in a footnote) concerning the pronunciation of the "holam" in Sana'a and in the provinces throughout Yemen. I will re-paste the edit for your convenience. Can you please tell me what you thought to be contradictory about the statement, or what you noted as a "conflicting source"?

ḥōlam

References

Best wishes. Davidbena (talk) 19:02, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi! The pronuciation of holam as /øː/ is overwhelmingly the case in Yemenite Hebrew from what I've gathered, and I question the validity of the information contained in that quote. Regarding the conflicting source, I was referring to the information and references about holam further down in the article in "Distingushing features" and "Holam and sere" that supports what I mentioned earlier. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, your input is important, but in this case it would seem that you may be a little uninformed. I have actually grown-up among the Yemenites, and as anyone can tell you who has lived among the Yemenite Jews, there are two distinct ways of pronouncing the "holam": one, the traditional Sanani way, which is closer to our regular "o" sound, while the provincial way (in Yemen's rural districts), the "holam" is pronounced more similar to the "sere," and which, by the way, the reference about the "holam" further down implied. Therefore, Abraham Z. Idelsohn's statement is correct. He clearly pointed out the distinction between the Sanani pronunciation and those in the rural villages.Davidbena (talk) 12:39, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

The quote states that holam is pronounced either /äu/~/oi/ or /ä/~/e/, while the rest of the article states that holam is either /ø/ or /e/, that was the contradiction I was referring to. I've posted the other conflicting relevant passages below. You may restore the qoute in the article if you think it's vital, I removed it since I thought it created confusion as it contradicted the rest of the information about holam in the article and since it presented a claim I hadn't come across elsewhere, including in the Hebrew Wikipedia article regarding Yemenite Hebrew. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:03, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

In some dialects, ḥōlem/ħolam (long "o" in modern Hebrew) is pronounced /øː/ (anywhere from non-rhotic English "er" to German o-umlaut), but in others, it is pronounced /eː/ like ṣêrệ/cerej. (The last pronunciation is shared with Lithuanian Jews.) Some see the assimilation of the two vowels as a local variant within the wider Babylonian family, which the Yemenites happened to follow. A distinct feature of Yemenite Hebrew is that there is some degree of approximation between the ḥōlam and the ṣêrệ. To the untrained ear, they may sound as the same phoneme, but Yemenite grammarians will point out the difference. The feature varies by dialect: In the standard, provincial pronunciation that is used by most Yemenite Jews, holam is pronounced as /øː/. For example, the word "shalom" (Hebrew: שָׁלוֹם), is pronounced sholøm, the /øː/ having the phonetic sound of something between a non-rhotic English "er" and the German ö. For all practical purposes, the sound is similar to the "i" in girl. In some provincial dialects, in particular that of Aden, holam becomes a long e and is indeed indistinguishable from sere, and some early manuscripts sometimes confuse or interchange the symbols for the two sounds. Some see the assimilation of the two vowels as a local variant within the wider Babylonian family, which the Yemenites happened to follow.

So, it would have been better for us to make note of this distinction in all places where the pronunciation of "holam" is referred to, rather than expunge an important aspect of its enunciation. Also, Rabbi Yosef Qafih argues in favor of one of the ways in which it was pronounced, while, at the same time, admitting that its pronunciation had changed over the years. Again, the result being that there are two distinct ways of pronouncing the "holam" in the Yemenite dialect. If you'd like to work on adding both methods, I'll give you the liberty to do so. It's important, though, that we keep Idelsohn's very important and invaluable remark on the "holam" as pronounced by the Sanani community and as pronounced in the outlying districts.Davidbena (talk) 21:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Edits in the talk page

There is a discussion in this talk page Talk:Yemenite Hebrew#Suggestion for transliteration? that dates back to 2007 and keeps getting edited since then by different ip and anonymous users. This is annoying because its spamming my watchlist with no reason. --شرعب السلام (talk) 22:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification; see above. I hope this helps. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:11, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Babylonian comparison

It would be nice if someone copied the Babylonian symbols into the table to make it easy to compare and contrast the 2 systems 2600:1700:4ED0:43D0:A1F2:321:580B:FC8C (talk) 16:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion

There is a lot of comparing yemenite and modern/israeli going on, however other pronunciations like ashkenazi is completely skipped out - it would be great to include it -especially it’s similarities and shared natures, thank you. MeKramer07 (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)