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Latest comment: 1 month ago19 comments11 people in discussion
"Shooting" might be taken to imply that the attack was fatal. I propose moving to "2024 Donald Trump assassination attempt". Mårtensås (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agreed, but I am not even sure "shooting" is appropriate at this point: none of the reliable sources state that unequivocally. Dumuzid (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
As of right now, the page title should stay as is, but I agree that the name could be changed to something more informational. Silaaaaaa (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Shooting" could also imply that it was a mass shooting so I think your title is better, though I do also think we should wait before moving in case it's labeled something else. Articles about mass shootings simply say "shooting" in their title. As it stands I believe both CNN and Fox report that there were multiple shots fired but only Donald Trump and one bystander are confirmed to be struck but both still alive and receiving urgent care. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
@Mårtensås I'm not sure how "shooting" implies it was fatal. Shots were fired; it is a shooting. "Shooting of Donald Trump" would be the best title in my opinion as the media is most commonly referring to this as a shooting. Cobblebricks (talk) 23:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
The current title suggests Trump was not the target, that there was merely shooting at unspecified targets at the rally. Assuming this is not the case - TBD obviously, then a name change should occur. Note there is already at least one link to this article in a Trump assassination attempt paragraph. 人族 (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Rename
Latest comment: 1 month ago12 comments12 people in discussion
Disagree. We do not yet know if this was an assassination attempt, much less if Trump was the actual target. It certainly seems likely, but the shooter may have, for example, been trying to kill someone else. Or he may have been trying to just wound Trump, rather than kill him. Stick with reliable information for now. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agreed. It is candidly absurd to suggest that the target wasn't Trump and that the bullet that seemingly struck his ear was intended merely to harm. This was clearly an assassination attempt. -- justdweezil (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please let's not turn the article into a reaction farm
Latest comment: 1 month ago28 comments14 people in discussion
I think we should only include reactions if they're notable. Random expressions of sympathy will unnecessarily bloat the Reactions section. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
As per usual, I think it's worthwhile to have Biden and Shapiro's reactions. Other reactions can be added if they prove to be meaningful (i.e. if a politician starts a conspiracy that gets popular) Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Would it be best to remove the section on X users too? I feel like it's a bit redundant and way too vague of a statement, all things considered. Anjellies (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with this analysis. I think political leaders from the area and in the relevant federal arena may be appropriate. A random businessperson of any persuasion is inappropriate. Zkidwiki (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Elon Musk was added back, but we can discuss here whether to keep it. I also believe Gallego might be unnessisary. He's just a random member from Arizona and I anticipate many, many members of congress on both sides of the aisle addressing this. And Governors will too, so to that extent I don't know if Whitmer's needed. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)23:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Musk is unnecessary unless he mobilises something major in support of Trump. As it stands, he just sent a Tweet. NYT reporting does not lend it newsworthiness because they're slapping everything on a live feed right now. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Barring new additions aside from those four officials is a bit odd, particularly since Whitmer is not the governor of the relevant state and is not a federal official. I don't think there is a rational basis for including only those four and, say, excluding Barack Obama and George W. Bush from the list. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I was trying to avoid being accused of ownership. I think that former presidents are still questionably important here. We can squish them all into "former presidents and politicians" once we get a full picture. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 00:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am suggesting we follow the Attack on Paul Pelosi's reaction page. Start at the President, mention the VP's reaction, local governor and mayors' reactions, and then in a few weeks or months we can discuss the general rabble/politicians' reactions. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Came here to say the same thing. Unless the reaction actually has a significant effect as described in reliable sources, they're trivia and there is no reason to include them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Heavy prune. It can be trimmed to one sentence, "The shooting was universally condemned by politicians from both the Republican and Democratic parties." Abductive (reasoning)00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
There are at least 193 countries on earth, each with many leaders. Javier Milei and Benjamin Netanyahu saying they offer condolences do not have lasting impact on politics. Unless the media hyperfixates on any specific leader's comments, they are trivia or clutter. We have set a very low bar to entry by allowing one line responses from even previous world leaders. When we mention Biden's responses, that is because it is an extension of the US government's attitude and because it will be highly covered. The same will likely not be true of Kier Starmer. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
No, they are politicians mouthing platitudes. That is the job of politicians, and deserves no more mention than any other non-encyclopedic topic. Abductive (reasoning)01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Anyone else think Whitmer is not needed in reactions? She seems kind of random considering she's from a completely different state. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I cannot think of a single realistic scenario where this would be necessary. The point remains that we need to prune this section down to three or four sentences max. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
The responses section is the largest section in this article at 12,983 bytes. It is continuing to grow because we are allowing additions too liberally. Please use this area as a discussion section for this topic. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Requested move 13 July 2024
Latest comment: 1 month ago204 comments130 people in discussion
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
I'm not going to go with any "wait" ideas, given an administrator moved it away from that title with 0 discussion. It was the title prior to administrator protection, and a single person determined the current name. Nah, a discussion needs to happen. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd support a move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump since none of the other assassination attempts against him (such as the ricin one) were nearly as notable as this one. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
@SimplyLouis27:WP:VNT. Do you have proof/sources that it was not confirmed or is not the common term? I listed 8 sources above using it. Sorry, but SNOWCLOSE isn't a valid thing for this, with a "not confirmed" reasoning because Wikipedia doesn't care about what is or isn't confirmed. Only what is verifiable, which "attempted assassination" is as presented above. If you wish to oppose, you can, but please provide a valid oppose reasoning via Wikipedia's policy. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Oppose and wait, we still do not know the motive of the perpetrator(s), It's possible it was not the goal to harm Trump but simply shoot at the rally. There is more information we should wait for. I believe we can move when it is confirmed an assassination was the goal. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm saying this with no disrespect, but you are either as blind as a bat or just being really ignorant. There is 8 RS listed in the proposal saying it was an assassination attempt. Since this is now the 2nd time your mentioned RS not using it, I'm specifically calling out the 8 sources above. If you still say RS as an oppose reasoning, take all eight sources to WP:RSN to get a consensus on their reliability. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
With respect, most of those are not RS, or should not be taken as RS on such matters when well-established political and national news media are not saying something. The rest are just repeating verbatim what the first lot said. But they're just hyperbolic for clicks, because until there is intelligence about the situation, it cannot be said conclusively, and no RS worth its salt is going to effectively influence the immediate intelligence-gathering by putting such a statement out there. Kingsif (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
the sources you listed aren't exactly well known media organisations. For example, the BBC make not mention of this being a assassination attempt. [9]. Also, please don't call other editors ignorant its quite rude and condescending. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; however, I'm willing to wait for more reliable sources describing it as such. No objections, either, to calling it "2024 shooting of Donald Trump", or something simple in that respect; I strongly dislike the current name, which is wordy and falls flat on encyclopedic guidelines. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Support His ear was literally shot, and the shooter was clearly aiming for his head. Had the shooter succeeded and killed him it would have been referred to as an assassination. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support for now, but we should wait. Almost every media source I can find explores the potential of "assassination attempt", even if they also refer to it as a shooting; though there is as of yet no official classification. Let's wait—but given current information, support is the way to go. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait There are no official versions yet whether Trump was the main target of the assassination attempt or not, but it is obvious that he was. I suggest waiting for the official version of law enforcement agencies about whether Trump was the main target, and if they confirm that he was, then change the page name. PLATEL (talk) 23:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait. We are getting to a point where the media will say this is attempted, but I think there we should wait. However, shouldn't this be like "Assassination Attempt of Donald Trump" (omitting the year, to be in line with Reagan's article) 49p (talk) 23:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yeah that's what I meant to say. Year won't be relevant to the article's title unless something changes in the near future. 49p (talk) 23:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; according to sources i read, multiple shoots being witnessed. let's wait for now and not rush things up till things get a bit cleared out. —— 🌸 Sakura emad 💖 (talk) 23:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support — WP:BLUE. Barring any issues with the title, the Butler attorney general has confirmed gunfire and everything hints at it to be a politically-motivated assassinatiion attempt. Luunarr (talk) 23:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wait, and oppose anything speedy No major media outlet (the proposal sources are dubious for political matters at best, some outright trash) is saying so, because they cannot confirm it, because police intelligence (while this is major and they will be working quickly) will not have yet told them so. The reason why no solid RS is running with "looks pretty obvious" is to not interfere, and Wikipedia absolutely does not lead the way on describing such incidents, especially if it would be applying a criminal motive that has not been reported by police yet. Kingsif (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose - we don't know who the target was. We've got years to change it. There's other issues with the title ... 2024? Have there been others? Was it a rally or a campaign event? Nfitz (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Support "Shooting of Donald Trump", pending further announcements of motive. The article title can be improved even before a motive is released, and the fact that Trump was shot appears to be the single most notable thing here. We don't need to circumlocute to "2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally" pending future announcements when we can make an incremental change to benefit the page. Status quo is not good enough, and also is not the sort of thing that we should default to in a WP:NOCON close, since the original page title was at 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. If we do get motive, then I would support Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, since we don't need the year and it's better grammar-wise. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Support but wait. We should make sure we have the fine details worked out before. There has been reports by reputable news sources about this topic, but there's definitely still some ambiguity that needs settling. 𝙰𝙶𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚝𝚄𝚜𝚎𝚛𝚗𝚊𝚖𝚎𝙲𝚑𝚘𝚒𝚌𝚎 (ramble)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support - It seems fairly clear that this was an assassination attempt, with some RS exploring the idea. We likely won't officially know until down the line, however, this should be moved back to its original title. A "shooting" understates the importance/severity of an assassination attempt, especially during an election cycle. 30Four (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Note AP is now reporting that the Secret Service is investigating this as an attempted assassination (source). Unless there's a good reason not to, I'm going to unilaterally implement this move in about 10 minutes (since that seems to have rough consensus and be supported by RSes). Please let me know below if there is a good reason not to. —Ganesha811 (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Further comment - Unilaterally is the wrong word to have used, but consensus is becoming pretty clear here in this RM. I don't see the point in Wikipedia's article title being vague and imprecise. If (and there's about a 0.1% chance at this point) this turns out to have been something *other* than an attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the article can always be moved back. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I don't want to get this dragged into a process discussion, so I won't be making any move myself. However, I do support the proposed move. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wait, because we don't know the motives of the perpetrator. We can't find out directly from the perpetrator because they're dead, but I imagine the Secret Service will find out what their motives were one way or the other. As I'm typing this, someone noted that the Secret Service is investigating this as an assassination attempt, so thanks in advance for that note. Ultimately, we'll have to see what they conclude. Unknown0124 (talk) 00:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Doesn't mean we should exacerbate the problem with renaming the article based largely on original research/editors opinions on the event. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
As much as I agree that we're often way too fast on creating articles on events, this is one case where the article is warranted. Assassination attempts don't happen everyday, especially not in the case of candidates for the President of the most powerful nation in the world. LilianaUwU(talk / contributions)01:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I mean, I wouldn't say delete it but I see where they're coming from. It's a current event article about something so current we don't really know what's happen(ed/ing). If the very basis of the event's notability cannot be definitely said (i.e. is the event "someone tried to shoot Trump" or "someone tried to wreak havoc at Trump rally" or unlikely but possibly "Trump fan discharged gun in crowd at rally, oops") then it'd be hard to get it through AfC, for example. Kingsif (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, not really. The whole point of deletion is to decide whether or not the article should exist. "The article won't be deleted" and "I don't think the article should exist" are different statements, rather. CFA💬00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wait It is way too early to be discussing this, the current title of the article is fine. Until an official statement about what just happened comes out from a major official source confirming what possible motive was involved here. (Major official source being something like: President's office, District Attoerey, US Secret Service, FBI, CIA) BlunanNation (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait Obviously an assassination attempt, but I think we should wait for some more clarification before we can make a decision to change the title. Indiana6724 (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. The attempted assassination of President Reagan is described as such, even though it did not result in his death but did result in the death of another; this is no different. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support Any logical mind assumes that firing bullets at someone is an attempt at their life, as a political figure it is entirely fair to assume a shooting at them at a political event is an assassination attempt.★Trekker (talk) 00:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. This was clearly an attempt to take his life and this will likely lead to him being a martyr which could have election impacts. AlienChex (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wait.' - We don't know what the shooter's motives were yet. It seems likely that it was an assassination attempt but it has not yet been confirmed. Shooting is neutral until authorities determine it was an assassination attempt. We should, however, add that this is being investigated as a potential assassination attempt in the lede. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. It was clearly an attempt to wound and or seriously injure him. This is going to have major implications for the 2024 election. It is being investigated as an assassination attempt and the White House is making a statement related to the event. Potomokbelogobarsa (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose for now as WP:V is not met, in spite of what all of these support comments think. There is a great likelihood this was an assassination attempt, but for all we know some yahoo started firing a gun into the air and some shrapnel nicked Trump. We need to wait for the results of the ongoing investigation and mind WP:BREAKING. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support for reasons of common sense as stated above. Regardless, title should be changed in line with WP:NCWWW as the current one is very unwieldly. "2024 Donald Trump rally shooting" would be more appropriate. CompassNNE (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose it is WP:TOOSOON to determine if it was an attempted assassination or not. We should absolutely not attempt to gun on this and frankly, the article was created too early as it is.}} Downerr2937 (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose for now. Although I do not deny that Trump was purposefully targeted, we are not even sure quite yet what the downed shooter's motive was. Let's wait for the investigation to turn up any further information. FreeMediaKid$00:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support but wait. I say it's highly likely it was an assassination attempt, but it's also possible that it was a random shooting with no political or religious motives, which doesn't constitute an assassination per its definition: murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons. It might be better to wait until a motive for the suspect has been found. SilentExplorer (talk) 00:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
In his testimonies and letters, Yamagami claimed that he was driven by a grudge against the Unification Church for ruining his family. Even though he originally planned to target Hak Ja Han, then president of the church, he was unable to approach her, so he switched to Shinzo Abe, whom he believed was "one of the most influential sympathisers" of the church.SilentExplorer (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
AP saying they have been told it is being investigated as such =/= AP saying it is such. We have to wait for the latter, whatever editors think is obvious. Kingsif (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
The article says: "The attack, by a shooter who law enforcement officials say was then killed by the Secret Service, was the first attempt to assassinate a president or presidential candidate since Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981." They are on-board with assassination attempt. -- GreenC00:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Support This was a clear cut assassination attempt. As someone else stated above, this was clearly an attempt to take his life and people usually shoot to kill their target. Anthonyd33331 (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Speedy support @ everyone going ermmmm we don't know the motive of the shooter, actually 🤓 There is no reason for an audience member to fire a gun at a politician unless it is to assassinate them. Enough chicanery. Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs)00:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Is your English this poor? The use of apparent implies a lack of decisiveness. ' : manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid ' From your own source. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose. Sources have yet to identify it as an assassination attempt. "Shooting" is the predominant, even accounting for geographic and political bias, e.g. NYT: "Trump ‘Safe’ After Shooting at Rally", Fox News: "Former President Clinton condemns shooting at Trump rally", The Guardian: "Trump rally shooting being investigated". "Support but wait" is a meaningless distinction here, as we don't have crystal balls and don't know that will definitely be the language this turns out on. Sure, I'd put money on it, but this is an encyclopedia, we wait for reliable reporting. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I'm not a reliable source, so it doesn't really matter what I'd call it. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. FWIW, we have seen a recent case where certitude something would be labeled an assassination attempt on a US politician was wrong, with Attack on Paul Pelosi. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)00:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose. The existing title is factual and accurate. Whether it was an assassination attempt is speculation, which Wikipedia should not do. The cited news reports couch things in terms like suspected, alleged, or possible. Unless and until what happened is investigated and confirmed by a formal investigation by competent authorities, and even then, the existing title is fine. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
are you seriously arguing someone went onto a roof overlooking a trump rally with a rifle and it was some sort of accidental misfire and that he wasn't trying to assassinate him? Scu ba (talk) 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
The argument is that Wikipedia contains information from reliable secondary sources, and they do not say definitively either way. Kingsif (talk) 00:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
At present we don't know, for certain, what was going on, who the person on the roof was or what their motives for being there was. Second guessing in advance of a formal investigation is WP:SPECULATION. Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
ah right it could've been anything! people clamber onto roofs with a rifle overlooking a presidential candidates rally all the time! Maybe he was just there for a skeet event and got lost! Scu ba (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm with Scu ba on this one. The Oxford definition of assassination attempt is "an attempt to murder someone famous or important." Whether it was politically motivated or not doesn't really matter. CFA💬00:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support Confirmed assassination attempt by multiple law enforcement agencies including the Secret Service. -- GreenC00:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support Very clearly an attempted assassination on Trump, and it is also being referred to as such by law enforcement officials. IncompA00:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support This was obviously an assassination attempt, it's crazy the extent people are going to deny it just because the subject is controversial. Deathying (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
The AP reports that their sources ("law enforcement officials") have said that the shooting is being investigated as an assassination attempt; they are not calling it one. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Strong Support and I don't see the point in waiting either. The AP clearly states its being investigated as an assassination attempt. If circumstances change, it can be moved again. TrueCRaysball | #RaysUp01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wait for more reliable source reporting on what precisely has occurred. Though, I fully suspect it will be reported as an assassination attempt as more details emerge. Otherwise, the current title is a fine placeholder until then. R. G. Checkers talk01:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose: I agree that this is obviously an assassination attempt. However, the article title policy requires that we follow what reliable sources say. The sources cited in this discussion are: (1) unreliable (such as WP:NYPOST), (2) only calling it an assassination in the headline (for example, [14]), or (3) calling it an "apparent" or "possible" or "suspected" assassination attempt (such as [15]), not confirming that it is one. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Strong Support* There is no need to "wait for more reliable sources to confirm what happened." It is very evident in the video that as the popping sounds rang out, Trump holds his hand against his ear and swiftly ducks beneath his podium. Literally every reliable source that has reported on this has reported that Trump was shot in the earlobe, obviously by someone in the crowd who had an assault weapon, one accidental wrist-flinch away from having shot the president. This was literally an attempted assassination. The only argument in favor of waiting is for the amount of edits taking place being potentially disrupted, but other than that, there is no need to wait more than 2-3 days for a name move if you know for sure it's going to happen. TrevortniDesserpedx (talk) 01:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support: Currently being investigated as an attempted assassination, reported as such on the front page of NYT ("The Secret Service killed a gunman after Donald Trump was rushed off stage in what is being investigated as an assassination attempt.") DigitalIceAge (talk) 01:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. In what universe is this not an assassination attempt? Have you seen the video? Whatever guideline one is relying on to object, WP:IGNORE, as minimizing such an obvious title is clearly a silly idea. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support, but if we wait, it should be clear in a couple days maximum and then it should be definitely changed to include "assassination attempt" in the title.Iljhgtn (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Strong Support - The fact that the attempted "plot" to kill Brett Kavanaugh is titled as an assassination, but a high-profile attempted assassination of Trump is not, is absolutely ridiculous. Almost every media network is reporting it as an assassination attempt, and it is being investigated as one. DocZach (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. They shot directly at Trump and struck him. Pretty much all media sources are calling it an assassination attempt. To say that it wasn't an attempt on his life is frankly insanity. Luminism (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Strong support and speedy move' This is not even debatable at this point of the evening. Just move the damn article already. Safiel (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose, the name "Assassination attempt of Donald Trump" reads as if Trump attempted to assassinate someone. The current name seems fine, if not renaming to "2024 Donald Trump Assassination Attempt" Vilo2023 (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Oppose: I sure think it was, but I'm with President Biden: let's have some facts, not opinions. We are not in a rush here. No one's giving out barnstars for the first edits on an "assassination" article. Ravenswing 01:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Number of victims
Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Currently there's no source on the number of victims (other than Donald Trump), despite it saying that there are two victims (one of which being Donald) and one death PikaCookies (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Change {{Short description|Non-fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} to {{Short description|Fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} RidgelantRL (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago6 comments3 people in discussion
The current article lede states:
Days before the incident, President Joe Biden stated "it's time to put Trump in a bullseye".
This is a long-standing metaphor in politics and other fields. People keep using it because there is no social consensus for not using it. That being so, why quote this? Conservatives who defended Palin using it will now attack Biden, liberals who attacked Palin will now defend Biden. Until someone writes Political speech § Shooting metaphors to offer clarity I see nothing to be gained by putting too much prominence on such remarks.
Thank you. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
There are sources and then there are reliable sources. And to be clear, the issue is not that Biden or Palin said such things, it is the linking of such comments to shootings. IMO unless there is clear evidence a shooter was influenced by such a comment such linkage is not RS, it IS OR by a source.
Well some guy took that literally it seems. Reliable sources are important here but we have to find a good balance being Wikipedia and all... Woobab (talk) 00:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Single source: "Shooter and one audience member reportedly dead"
Latest comment: 1 month ago7 comments5 people in discussion
AP and Washington Post are reporting this, though it's from only one local DA, and not from the Secret Service or any federal government spokesperson. Take with a grain of salt:
Butler county district attorney Richard Goldinger tells me Trump was grazed by gunfire but is safe. An audience member was killed and the shooter is dead. Another person is in serious condition, the prosecutor said.
It's the same source - Butler County's district attorney – so we should seek more corroboration. We've been down this 'fog of confusion' road before when reporting on breaking news in Wikipedia and need to be more discerning. - Fuzheado | Talk00:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
I mean given the hyperreality of the situation, I'm pretty sure the circumstances call to suggest this might be an assassination attempt. Woobab (talk) 00:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ah you're right! it could've been anything! someone clambered onto a rooftop overlooking a trump rally with a rifle and shot him in the ear because he didnt wan't to assassinate him! It could've been anything! Scu ba (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
If you want to break journalistic standards by prematurely declaring something an assassination attempt before the investigating parties say it for certain, you can do it at a tabloid. Which us here who know about sourcing on Wikipedia wouldn't use as an RS while waiting for actual confirmation. Kingsif (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Journalistic? I thought we were not news? Regardless, I don't see what in the world this could be other than an assassination attempt, doesn't take a genius to figure this one out. Kline • talk • contribs01:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
You know what I mean. Which also answers your second sentence: Wikipedia is not here to figure it out, and anyone who claims they have before the people doing the investigating announce it, isn't an acceptable source. Kingsif (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Pennsylvania does not have unincorporated areas. If it’s outside the city limits of Butler it’s likely part of a township. Dough487200:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
It is part of Connoquenessing Township. There are unincorporated places in Pennsylvania such as Boyers. Irregardless, it does not seem appropriate to say that it occurred in the city of Butler. Here is a map of Butler County with cities, townships, etc. labeled. Butler County, PennsylvaniaRaskuly (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Use of Live or Archived Sources
Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I noticed the archiving of some live sources. Should we not be simply linking live sources instead for higher accuracy and to prevent future confusion if the old sources report outdated information? Some people may update the content of this Wiki article and not change the outdated sources. Bill Williams00:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
The current infobox image is biased and inappropriate
Latest comment: 1 month ago17 comments8 people in discussion
Not the issue, primary issue is we don't have the rights to the image and it is possible someone at the event might release a similar image to the commons. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
That is a completely - completely - different question to whether a photo is itself inherently so historically important to make it fair use. Kingsif (talk) 00:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Just because an image of a victim of a shooting is being used by the supporters of that victim doesn't mean the image itself is "inappropriate" for a situation like this NorthropChicken (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Quite the opposite, this is the image the media is using the most (all show different variations of him raising his fist) and therefore it is most informative to readers and most identifiable if this image is used. This image should displayed in the infobox. Bill Williams00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I don't think we have a choice. And you're absolutely right, this image is now the equivalent of the "Hope" poster. I don't think there's anything we can do. Viriditas (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I figured the ambiguity of my comment would confuse people. This photo is now iconic. It will be constantly added back. Go look at it on the main page. It's not going away. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Can't verify this, but mentioning it here for follow up. This ugly event is going to get uglier and possibly even spiral into conspiracy territory. The interview is interesting if nothing else. Perhaps link to it?Michael Dorosh (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago12 comments5 people in discussion
"The shooter did not undergo security screening as they were reportedly outside the security perimeter of the rally, and was killed by Secret Service snipers soon after the shooting."
@Muboshgu: They isn't singular. It's plural. The idea of they etc being gender neutral singular is utter nonsense. If people want something like that they need to come up with some new word not twist an existing word into something it isn't. As for it being a man, there's the photo and the fact that practically all gun assassins are male. MisawaSakura (talk) 01:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
It should be removed simply to avoid confusion. Since you two don't care what I think I don't care what you think. Bottom line, having a word be singular and plural is silly and confusing. MisawaSakura (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
My one sheep in that field and my ten sheep in this field all think that your ignorance of grammar is not helping anyone. If you want to wage a war on singular they, Wikipedia is not the place. Kingsif (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sprache
Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments4 people in discussion
The page feels like it’s written as a dramatic retelling of the “harrowing events of Donald Trump” being filled with flowery language which comes of as heavily biased towards Trump. The articles image description speaks perfectly to this with the unecessary usage of “Bloodied” coming off as a vanity piece more than an informative article, I think this should be reworded and should have higher levels of protection in place as many edit wars will likely be waged on such a hot topic here. InternetEnigma (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
InternetEnigma: For edit requests, you have to suggest alternate language for specific examples, not cite a general problem. For instance, not only is his face generally described as "bloodied," I also personally believe that such a description is accurate and representative. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
There are multiple above discussions on inclusion of the image. What do you think would be a good alternative to the image description? Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese tweeted that the "incident at former President Trump’s campaign event in Pennsylvania today is concerning and confronting", stating that there is "no place for violence in the democratic process" and that he is relieved to hear that Trump is now safe.
The Apple CEO one I understand, but is adding the response of the leader one of America's staunchest allies (i.e. Australia) really 'reaction farming'? Luminism (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
In reference to the above - I also want to note that the New Zealand PM's response was added, and considering the ties Australia has to the US (see AUKUS)... Luminism (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Forget about the Apple CEO one, that's fine if it's not added. But if New Zealand can be added, then I think Australia should be too, given how close Australia's ties are to the US. If your view is that New Zealand is more relevant to Trump and the US than Australia is, then I see no reason for me to waste my time on this point. Luminism (talk) 01:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
Why are any of them here? Opening the door even more is not a reasonable solution. The article size is snowballing and it is mostly consolidated in this section, just to say "We hope Trump's okay" for every country on earth. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Antwort
I agree with you, and think we should trim it down and maybe even just include a generic statement about how many leaders condemned it. I just thought it was a reasonable edit request considering the other figures that are present in the section. I see it was removed so I will let it remain how it is. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Someone tried to assassinate a former (and likely next) US President. Do you really think the reaction & response from other world leaders (in particular, America's greatest ally) isn't relevant?
Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments2 people in discussion
We do not yet know what gun was used, so I think we should leave off any speculation until we know what was used in this shooting. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Cited now in article. I knew this would be confirmed fairly quickly. As more sources are found we can add those to the article too in order to solidify the reliability of that claim. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please clarify the currently available information about the alleged shooter
Latest comment: 1 month ago6 comments3 people in discussion
It is clear that the shooter was male, of slim build, with light to fair skin complexion. There are already hundreds of sources confirming this.
This one: "In 2020, Trump won 65 percent of the vote in Butler, Pennsylvania—the site of the rally—compared to Biden's 33%.[13]" guninvalid (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Maybe, but it's not relevant to the shooting. At the end of the day, it would'nt've mattered whether this happened in a county that voted Trump or Biden or Santa Claus. It may speak to why Trump had the rally there in the first place, thus being relevant to the rally, but the shooting has almost nothing to do with it. guninvalid (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Logical error in lead
Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
"The shooting is being investigated as an attempted assassination. It is the first time that a U.S. president or presidential candidate was injured in an attempted assassination since Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981."
The first sentence suggests that it is not definitive whether it was an attempted assassination ("investigated"). The second sentence implies that it was an attempted assassination as a matter of fact. JDiala (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
"At least 3, including Donald Trump"
Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Can anyone find a quote in the article that explicitly confirms the number of injured as being greater than or equal to 3? I can't due to the paywall Trade (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Erledigt per other similar figures reactions being present. Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 01:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done I don't beleive we should add random CEO's and all world leaders nessisarily. See Talk:2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally#Please let's not turn the article into a reaction farm Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 01:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
