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January 26

Land of Linkin'

I would like to be able to link from one page to a specific line in a table on another page. I tried using the "anchor" template, but it positions at the top of the table rather than where I had put the "anchor". Does anyone have experience with this kind of tinkering? Thank you, all. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:09, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Due to the overwhelming lack of response, I suspect that you're out of luck. If {{anchor}} doesn't work, then (probably) nothing will. However, you get bonus points for creative header titles. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:29, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Is this in Wikipedia or HTML? For WP, you could try adding <a name="target" />. You could always look at the generated HTML to see what's going on. CS Miller (talk) 21:10, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Just checked wp:HTML#a, and it isn't supported, but your can use any named element as the target in HTML2.0. CS Miller (talk) 21:12, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

The question is how to post an "anchor" within a table and have it jump to that line instead of jumping to the top of the table. I'm thinking there's something about the nature of the table itself that prevents it from working. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:57, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that the problem arises because everything between {| • • • |} is considered a single line of code. ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

So an apparent 2-D table would actually be a single line of code. That makes sense. Thank you all for trying! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: this link, Fort Simpson/(Great Slave No. 1) Heliport, will do what you want. It takes you from here to the particular line in the table at List of heliports in Canada. It looks like this [[List of heliports in Canada#304|Fort Simpson/(Great Slave No. 1) Heliport]] and the target is |<div id="304"></div>Fort Simpson/(Great Slave)||. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Ha. Trying to find where I picked that up from and I came across Help:Table#Section link or map link to a row anchor which does the same thing but a little bit differently. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Awesome. I'll look into those techniques. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

no problem. Questions like that might get a quicker answer at Wikipedia:Help desk. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:16, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Mōri Motonari

This image is very interesting, for what reason the image can not be imported? The image is very old, is public domain. Bruno Ishiai (talk) 19:09, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "can not be imported" but I think you mean that you can't use it on this English Wikipedia when you try to put its file name into an article. That is because it is on the Ukrainian Wikipedia and images cannot be used from one Wikipedia to another like that. In order for an image to be used on multiple Wikipedias, they must be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. It is from there that they can be used across several Wikipedias.

And it likely can't be uploaded to Commons since it appears (I don't read Ukrainian) to be copyrighted. Images on Commons must be licensed under a free license.

Also, questions about how to edit Wikipedia go on the Help Desk. This page, the Reference Desk is for general knowledge questions about things outside of Wikipedia. Dismas|^(talk) 19:27, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

This is the problem: "can't be uploaded to Commons since it appears to be copyrighted", the image is old, in other words, public domain. Thanks. Bruno Ishiai (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I have asked for assistance from someone at WikiProject Ukraine. Perhaps they can read the license info and help out. Dismas|^(talk) 19:51, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

According to the Ukrainian page, the image is copyrighted. It probably is not copyrighted under US law (where faithful photographic reproductions of public domain images are PD, too), but may be copyrighted under Ukrainian law. IIRC, commons requires images to be PD in the US (because "that's where the servers are") and in the country of origin. That means that the image probably can be uploaded to en.wikipedia, but not to commons. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, partly as a result of National Portrait Gallery and Wikimedia Foundation copyright dispute, the Wikimedia Foundation has made it clear [1] they believe we should ignore claims of copyright on such reproductions of PD 2D artwork in other countries. So even in the Wikimedia Commons such cases are an exception to the general requirement that content be of a suitable licence in the country of origin and the US, Commons:Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag.

So it may be okay to upload this image to the wikimedia commons.

That said, you will still have to comply with commons requirements. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure some info on the sourcing of this image would be needed. It's all very well to say an image or artwork is old, but except in a case where the image can't be anything but old (e.g. a photo of a person who died in 1830) it's difficult to tell without knowing more about the image whether it's old or just recent contribution, perhaps designed to look like something from another time. Going by the Google translate, I think the source is listed as a book possibly [2]. Although from Google Image search, the image itself may have been taken from [3] (which seems to have the same dimensions etc, but maybe they took it from the Ukranian wiki or they both took it from another place) and similar images also appears in other places [4] [5] all of which suggest it may very well be an old image but you should ask someone more familiar perhaps at Commons:Village pump/Copyright for what they require. It may be simply affirmation from the book listed as a source that it's an old image.

You should however bear in mind that as in all cases, our concern relates to protecting wikimedia. If you live in a country where such reproductions may be protected or heck even if you live in the US but don't want to have to deal with possible legal cases elsewhere, if it's believed copyright over this reproduction may be claimed by someone who may wish to enforce their copyright, you may want to pass over dealing with this to someone else.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

The image is pd in the world. The image seems to be copied from this book. The book is copyrighted, but not the images of two-dimentional pd works. I once asked about it to an expert and she said "Even if the book was published yesterday the two-dimentional pd images in it are free to use". As for the painting, it is called "毛利元就座備図". Our version might be #17 on this list. Another version can be seen at here and the page says the painting belongs to this museum. If the image at uk:WP is copyrighted, I'd like to know who is the copyright holder. Oda Mari (talk) 15:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Nil Einne, what do you mean by ...which suggest it may very well be an old image...? I think those images were recently taken. But photographers of 2D pd like maps do not have copyright as there is no artistic originality can be found in two-dimensional photos. That is why pd 2D photos are free to use. See Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.. In short, a simple reproductive photograph of a two-dimensional artwork does not give rise to a new copyright on the photograph. The owner of the kakemono is definitely [6] as the writer of the link #16 is Naoki Shibahara, a deputy director of the museum/毛利博物館館長代理 柴原直樹. If it's difficult to upload the uk:WP image to Commons, you can upload the image from the link #16. You can have bigger image by clicking the image. Oda Mari (talk) 06:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I think I caused some confusion by failing to always clearly differentiate between the reproduction of the artwork and the artwork itself. What I meant is that without knowing more details such as origins of the artwork/kakemomo we can't know if it's really an old artwork or a new artwork that some people incorrectly identify as an old artwork. An expert artist could likely replicate the style of an old artwork, so you can't go by the fact it's an old painting style. Nor that it features historic stuff as there's a good chance anyone producing such historic looking artwork in the modern day would choose historic stuff to depict. The sheer number of different places this artwork appears and in different version suggests the artwork is really an old artwork but I wouldn't use such an argument on WP commons. The details you have provided are much better evidence.

I'm well aware of Bridgeman, I discussed it a fair bit a few days ago and it's also mentioned a fair bit in the articles and pages I linked to. However it's a US case and has limited applicability to other countries particularly those with substantially different copyright laws. As the articles and pages also say, it's entirely unclear whether the same precedent will hold in other countries as there have been few test cases (even in the US, despite the importance of Bridgeman it's actually only NY case and never went further). But there are definitely legal experts who claim there may be copyright in some other countries.

If an expert told you any PD 2D artwork reproduction is PD in the world without qualification, I wouldn't trust that expert since as the the pages and articles say, this is fairly disputed. As I already mentioned, this doesn't matter for commons because we take the stance it we don't care partially based on the foundations view that such an idea is fundamentally wrong. (But note that even the foundation don't say they believe there's no possibility of a copyright claim in any country under their current law simply that they think it's wrong. Not particularly relevant but I believe they are far less convinced of the possibility of a valid claim under UK law than some other commentators, which is one of the big area this has came up.)

Linked in commons page I liked above is Commons:Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs which gives a decent overview of the applicable laws (although I'm not sure if this is a scan or photo or what). It sounds like the situation is clear cut in Japan as well so maybe this is what you were referring to when you mentioned an expert (or perhaps US law). This would suggest the reproduction would be fine on commons even without the exception, although it's worth remembering there's still a possibility someone could claim copyright in a country where it may be valid.

As to who will be the copyright holder presuming their is a possible copyright claim in any country, it would of course be whoever made the reproduction or whoever commissioned it if it was a work for hire in the first instance (the copyright could of course later have been transferred to someone else). Remember that as with a photo of a PD 3D artwork, only the photo or reproduction itself is copyrighted. The artwork is still PD. Someone will always be free to make another reproduction assuming they can get the necessary access.

Of course because of the limited possibilities involved, it may in some cases be difficult to prove the origins of the reproduction if the person denies and leaves no evidence, compared to a 3D artwork. There are also other unanswered questions like what happens if someone paints a copy of the artwork from the copyrighted photo (but I'm not sure if this is solved for 3D artworks either) which will likely lead to fundamental questions depending on the answer (like what happens if someone substantially digitally processes the image). As I said in my first reply and repeated above none of this matters to commons but since you asked I thought I'd offer some clarification.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The artwork was painted in Edo period. It was written in the #16 link and the pdf link I provided above. If you are unsure, upload this image. It's another version of Mōri 座備図. Oda Mari (talk) 16:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

In the wiki-en, ok, but equal this page? Or other license? Bruno Ishiai (talk) 14:33, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I have moved this response here where it was originally. It is confusing to have it above because I did not see this response when reply due to an EC and more importantly I was clearly replying to StS not BI. But because of the indentation level of BI's post, it looks like I'm replying to them. This of course would also be the correct WP:indentation style even if I had seen BI's post. Nil Einne (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Minerals by ranked by value of what is produced annually

Out of curiosity this would be something interesting to see. I know iron is the most important mineral and about 300 billion dollars of it is produced every year. While cobalt is just about 4 billion dollars a year. But I can't find any sort of ranking on this anywhere. Anyone know of another resource? Gullabile (talk) 19:57, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

First, you seem to be talking about chemical elements, rather than minerals. Second, since most of the economic value is from items composed of multiple elements, how would you propose to split up the value among them ? By weight ?

If, on the other hand, you mean just to count those which are sold as pure, single elements, then maybe carbon would top the list, in the form of diamonds, or perhaps a precious metal like gold (although gold is often alloyed with other elements). StuRat (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I've often seen the term minerals or mineral resources to mean the products of mining like iron, copper, gold, etc. I don't think there are methodology problems because customs keeps track of the type of minerals imported or exported. So the total value of iron ore produced in a year is known as is the number for other minerals but I just haven't seen a ranking of the top 20 or so minerals stacked up to each other. Gullabile (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

"Minerals" would include things like bauxite, which contains aluminum, but isn't just aluminum. StuRat (talk) 05:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

No, indeed. There's usually a decent amount of aluminium in there as well. Not to mention trace amounts of platinium, molybdenium, lantanium and tantalium.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:29, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Bail in provisions for banks

Greetings: Could you provide a list of the countries which currently have enacted bail in provisions for their banks. I cannot locate this information in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wango89 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean bailouts ? StuRat (talk) 21:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

No. A bail-in is the financial restructuring of a distressed bank by mandatory conversion of bond issues to equity, essentially turning bond holders into shareholders - see this definition from the FT. The US has enacted bail-in provisions through the Dodd-Frank act. Gandalf61 (talk) 22:54, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

January 27

regarding materials used in zero energy building

how can i get the materials used in zero energy buildings with complete details  ?

- jaswanth jan/27/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.252.231.226 (talk) 12:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hellp, Jaswnth. Have you looked at Zero-energy building, and followed some of the references and biblography there? --ColinFine (talk) 20:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Russian driving

Lately, I've seen quite a few videos on YouTube showing various crashes and other on-the-road stupidity in Russia. It is mostly in urban areas in reasonably good conditions, with many incidents seemingly due to poor decision making on the part of the driver, excessive speed or simply failing to stop at intersections. Is this simply selection bias due to the number of dashboard cameras fitted in Russia or is there some other reason like the standard of driver education being particularly poor in Russia? Astronaut (talk) 19:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You must not have spent much time driving on American highways. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I have driven many thousands of miles in the USA, but seen very few accidents. Certainly never someone rocketing through a red light at 60 mph, or trying to turn left from the right lane across three lanes of traffic on a busy highway, or just driving on the wrong side of the road and insisting on pressing ahead even after a head on crash (except of course in those police chase shows). That kind of thing seems to be almost normal for Russian roads if the amount of videos on YouTube are anything to go by. Astronaut (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I've seen quite a few accidents, or maybe I should say the results of quite a few accidents, and I've seen American drivers do some crazy things. The common thread, apart from obvious issues like drunkenness or other impairment, seems to be the result of one or more drivers not paying sufficient attention to what they're supposed to be doing. I've seen lots of lane-swerving as you describe. I've also seen drivers run red lights and smack somebody and/or get smacked, although usually not at 60 mph. I can think of more than one case of drivers taking the wrong ramp and ending up facing the traffic - and getting killed. News reports turn up from time to time, talking about what a high percentage of American accidents are a result of "distracted driving" - phoning, texting, etc. Accidents are the exception to the norm, and maybe there are proportionally more of them showing up in youtubes from some countries than from others. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It's all relative. Russia looks safe compared to say Ethiopia, but rather dangerous if compared to Germany. Here is the Google Translation of the Drivers Education page off of the Russian Wikipedia. 202.4.114.18 (talk) 19:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm reasonably sure the Russian law lays out a reasonable standard, but is the law enforced, with police carrying out checks on the driver's licenses? And are drivers expected to actually pass before being let out on the road or are there other means of obtaining a drivers license? Astronaut (talk) 19:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You will find these videos about any country. Russia is just larger, and to the American mind, somewhere (at last!) where they know where it vaguely is, and YouTubers still like to show how 'primitive' it is (because of the Cold War mentality). Traffic accidents occur all over the world on a daily basis. Some Russian cars have cameras - usually to prove that the car in front was wrong when there is an accident (this is good practice - we should have this in the UK). Bear in mind, the YouTubers are not the ones posting these videos. It's the drivers themselves - IN RUSSIA. They are complaining, and due to the sheer size of the biggest country on Earth, there are bound to be more accidents, and videos on YouTube. They are recording the (potential) accidents so as to show them to law enforcement, not for teenage entertainment. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

That would be a good thing in the US too. A lot of police cars have it, but I don't know that the average citizens do. But wasn't it those dash-mount cameras which gave us some good footage of that large meteor over Russia last year? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Alcoholism in Russia is probably a contributing factor. "In the early 1980s, ... drunk drivers were responsible for 14,000 traffic deaths and 60,000 serious traffic injuries'". Clarityfiend (talk) 02:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

We have List of countries by traffic-related death rate which shows Russia's rate is higher per person and per vehicle than the U.S. rate (but no figure is provided for per km) Rmhermen (talk) 02:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Also Dashcams are very common in Russia, according to the article "... as a form of sousveillance, additional evidence in court, and as a guard against police corruption and insurance fraud". This means that a much higher percentage of crashes are caught on camera. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Didn't Astronaut/the OP already mention that factor? Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah. Chris' link to Dashcam and its references went a long way to explaining my question. I'll put that one down to selection bias. Astronaut (talk) 15:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I've seen a number of videos of crashes/driving incidents in "Russia" that from various clues appear to have actually occurred elsewhere, particularly in Ukraine. Some of it is just sloppy labelling on YouTube. I've also seen various videos supposedly of people or things in the UK, where I'm from, which definitely were not. --86.12.139.50 (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The Exemplary Egyptian Welfare State

According to this ranking, Egypt is tied for first place among 137 countries in progress in Millennium Development Goals. [7] Is there any analysis on how this factor didn't seem to matter in turning back a revolution? Gullabile (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Who says it didn't? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Er...because regardless of it, there have been multiple revolutions there?!? (See: Egyptian Revolution of 2013, Egyptian Revolution of 2011, Egyptian Revolution of 1952 and Egyptian Revolution of 1919) SteveBaker (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Because people want both freedom and prosperity. There was also quite a bit of low-level corruption, too. See Mohamed Bouazizi. Although this case was in Tunisia, similar problems existed in Egypt under Anwar Sadat. Without democracy, it's difficult to confront corruption, as who you know is inevitably more important than if you are actually guilty. That is, the person in charge will be much more willing to convict an innocent opponent than his own guilty relatives. StuRat (talk) 19:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The OP is asking for "analysis". That doesn't include our own personal opinions, but does include external sources, if any. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

They didn't specify whose analysis is allowed and whose is not. And that analysis is actually from a PBS documentary, I just repeated it here (I'd have listed it, had I recalled the name). And I included plenty of links, so they can read up on the issues in our articles and their sources. StuRat (talk) 21:49, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Fine (for the latter parts, although it would have been better if you had acknowledged up front that you were relaying someone else's analysis). However, we should not pretend that random OPs have the power to rewrite the rules of the Ref Desk to suit their convenience. If this OP had explicitly asked for our opinions, we would have refused to answer. So please don't talk in terms of "it's what they asked for". I'm surprised you'd still be attempting to justify this after being a regular here for over 10 years, Stu. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

January 28

Which model of headphones are these?

http://cfile3.uf.tistory.com/image/191E5C2E4CC8C3BB4C9721

I'm talking about the ones held up by the woman on the right, I know the left are the Sony MDR-ZX700. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.128.86 (talk) 03:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

A Korean website with that image on it says that there are four sets of headphones pictured: MDR-ZX100, MDR-ZX300, MDR-ZX500 and MDR-ZX700...which ones are which is not made clear. However, it looks like the 100's and 300's have the round cups and the 500's and 700's have the more elongated ones. So I guess she's holding the 100's and 300's - and only one of the pair that the guy is holding is 700's. I can't see any visual difference between the 100's and 300's though - so it's hard to say which are which. SteveBaker (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

You got it right, I googled the models and it's the same headphones that appear in the picture. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.128.86 (talk) 01:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeaaahhh we win! Awesome! FYI: In future, you might want try using Google's "image search" feature - it lets you enter the URL for an image and shows you a bunch of sites that use it. Generally, it's possible to find out more about a picture by doing that - which is how I came across that Korean site. SteveBaker (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Russian attitudes to personal safety

As a follow in to the Russian Driving section I have seen that often after a crash people will pull up quickly and sometimes run across an icy road to assist someone in a crashed vehicle, even if the vehicle is stuck in the fast lane of a busy road with cars rushing by. Sometimes other vehicles have passed close behind and its obvious that if they had slipped they would have been hit themselves. In US and UK incidents people more usually signal and pull in when it's safe and call the emergency services. They will often wave for traffic to stop and only cross to help when and if the traffic comes to a halt.

Is taking risks to help someone else something that Russians would expect others to do? Is it because emergency services would take longer to respond? -- Q Chris (talk) 08:55, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This article (used as a reference in the dashcam article) explains a little about this. "This comes from the recognition of the fact that on a 300-mile stretch of uninhabited territory, help can only come from passing vehicles and not emergency services... Imagine pulling over, rescuing the deserted traveler from hours of waiting for costly rescue services. The comradery between strangers, shoveling the snow and hailing a freight truck or tractor to pull the car out." Maybe the same attitude are present in Russian city dwellers. Astronaut (talk) 15:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Seaman to Admiral

There is an article on a US Navy program STA-21 which is intended to allow for enlisted personnel to become commissioned officers. Have many military people risen from the lowest enlisted rank to become a flag officer, general officer or equivalent? Hack (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Looking at List of United States Navy four-star admirals, the ones I looked at (the last six in the first list) were all career naval officers who graduated from the United States Naval Academy or similar (ie. they started as officers). Looking at the next list, I find Alfred M. Pride who enlisted during WWI and "served first as a machinist's mate in the Naval Reserve". His article also says that his career was " remarkable for its time, in that he achieved flag rank without having attended the United States Naval Academy or even completing college". That suggests to me that it sometimes does happen. Astronaut (talk) 18:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I now find Jeremy Michael Boorda who "is notable for being the first American sailor to have risen through the enlisted ranks" to become an Admiral. In the US Army it seems more common. For example: Walter Krueger "rose from the rank of private to general"; John William Vessey, Jr. received a battlefield commission during WWII; Richard Horner Thompson is the most recent to have risen from enlisted man to general. Astronaut (talk) 18:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

William Robertson is the only example in the British army, although Peter de la Billière rose from Private to General (the rank of Field-Marshal having been suspended). I _think_ Jacky Fisher is the only Royal Navy example, but I may be wrong. Tevildo (talk) 02:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

T.W. Hunt, Author

Have been unable to find his birthday--and it is not included in what you have listed for him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.28.73.128 (talk) 18:26, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This is not surprising, considering the article (T. W. Hunt) doesn't even mention what "T. W." stands for. Regretfully, my attempt to find answers has not been fruitful; sorry. ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This says he was a 10-year old in December 1940. Find-a-Grave shows a joint gravesite for him (for whenever he pops off) and his late wife Laverne. Interestingly, she's Laverne, but he's still plain old "T. W.". It says he was born on September 28, 1929. This means that he was actually aged 11 in December 1940. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Is Find-a-Grave a reliable source for such things? (His dob is literally "carved in stone"). ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This confirms his wife was Laverne. There are various hits for his birth in 1929. Since he obviously was highly involved in commissioning this gravestone after his wife's death and in preparation for his own, I think we can take it on trust that the birth dates shown there are reasonably accurate. Anyway, it's the best we can do for now, unless we can find an independent source like a b/c. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Note regarding the reliability of Find-a-Grave: It is mostly reliable for reporting which tombstones are in which cemeteries, and what the contents of those tombstones are. I can tell you from personal observation that the carvings on the stones are not necessarily reliable information. I've seen both names and dates with incorrect information. But they are at least a guideline. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. Cases of inaccurate gravestone carvings are legion. And of course, people tend not be present at their own births, insofar as being reliable witnesses as to the date, time and place. They only know what they were told by unreliable people like their parents and what they read in unreliable documents like birth certificates. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:14, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

True when such documentation exists. But consider the pitcher Chief Bender, not born all that long ago, but no one knows for sure what his birth year was - 1883, 1884 or 1885. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's RS, but Marquis Who's Who on Demand says that he was born in 1929 and that his full name is Thomas Webb Hunt. John M Baker (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Frankly, T. W. Hunt looks like a WP:AfD to me; however, when I attempted to start the process: "Unregistered users placing this tag on an article cannot complete the deletion nomination..." ~Eric the Unregistered:71.20.250.51 (talk) 02:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Eric. What is remotely notable about this person? One book, one compilation CD and he plays the piano. Richard Avery (talk) 07:36, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The user who created the article nearly 5 years ago, Sweetmoose6 (talk · contribs), is still somewhat active. Maybe someone could ask him what's up with this. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Births in the UK

How many Births where there in 1941 in the UK92.4.166.224 (talk) 18:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

My copy of Whitaker's Almanack 1943 gives the number on page 609: There were 703,427 births in the United Kingdom in 1941. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I need help to find a definition

What is the name of the practice and study of techniques for open education in the presence of centralized models? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.223.233.229 (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you explain any better ? By open education, are you talking about free online classes like at edX ? If so, those are massive open online courses. StuRat (talk) 19:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, by Open Education I mean when two entities are learning from each other and do not want a centralized model (like a school, either online or in real life) to butt in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.223.233.229 (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

"Entities" = people ? You are speaking too formally, which makes you difficult to understand. Also, when you said "in the presence of centralized models" you meant the "absence", right ? StuRat (talk) 21:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, People — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.223.233.229 (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Autodidactic means "self-taught"; Tutor-(ship) or mentorship is closer to what you're thinking of, but those are more of a one-way instruction. "Mutual Learning" gets promising Google results:[8] [These relate to company "leadership approaches"]. ~I hope this helps, ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:50, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[Modified:15:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC):~E]

Peer-to-peer might be of interest, although that's more of networking strategy than education. But some of the concepts might apply. StuRat (talk) 22:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

The first one-on-one teaching method that came to my mind was Each One Teach One. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

• Cooperative learning is the best term, based on what I think you mean. It is usually still conducted in a classroom, but less centralized, and less focus on a one-way model of information flowing from instructor to student. We also have an article on collaborative learning, which is similar, but a little different. You might also be interested in active learning and learning by teaching. When people use scientific studies of these methods to change and improve instructional techniques, it is often called scientific teaching. All of those keywords will get you lots of research on google scholar. If you need help getting access to a particular article, you can ask at WP:REX. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

互相帮助 is used in Chinese, and is used for teaching each other. It literally means 'mutual help'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:05, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

January 29

Scottish Referendum on Independence

For the vote, do you have to actually be Scottish, or just living there (as a UK citizen - and therefore possibly including English, Welsh, or Irish)? How would you prove that you are actually Scottish, anyway? Theoretically, though highly unlikely, lots of people from the other three member states of the UK could move to Scotland just before the referendum, and tip the balance of the vote. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:07, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Scottish independence referendum, 2014#Date and eligibility lists the criteria for voters. There is no legal definition of "being Scottish" only "living in Scotland". -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 12:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly the franchise is wider than usual, as it includes "citizens of the 53 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland", "citizens of the 28 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland" and "members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland", none of whom are entitled to vote in UK General (and other) Elections. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually all three categories are eligible for UK elections; see our article here. UK residents who are Commonwealth citizens are eligible for both UK General Elections and local elections. UK residents who are EU citizens and House of Lords are only eligible for local elections, e.g. independence referendums. So the franchise is exactly the same as any other local election. Dncsky (talk) 19:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I (obviously) never knew that. Thanks for the correction. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

EU citizens are allowed to vote for the European parliament, no mater where in the EU they are living. Irish citizens resident in the UK can vote in all elections. CS Miller (talk) 19:59, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

If it's like the rest of the UK at General Election time then you have register and get a slip through the post to vote. No Scottish postal address, no vote. Plus, they would probably realise something had gone amiss when a higher population voted than Scotland housed. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:13, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The "slip through the post", aka polling card, tells you that you're entitled to vote, but there is no requirement to show it when voting. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

True, but it is necessary to be on the electoral register maintained by the authority to whom you pay council tax. I don't think there are enough empty houses in Scotland to house enough extra voters to make a significant difference, but, in theory, it would be possible to have a large increase in the number of eligible voters at the time when the register was being compiled. Dbfirs 18:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Name of a specific type of work duty

Hello, I was driving along a rode when I saw a person on the side of the road, dressed up as the Statue of Liberty, doing a dance. I assume he was advertising local restaurant "New York Pizza" as there was one very close by. What is the proper name for the types of employee that do this sort of thing? -- 140.202.10.134 (talk) 15:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Human billboard --Viennese Waltz 15:58, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that he might also have been advertising Liberty Tax, they're rather famous around my town for their "Wavers" with this costume. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree it could be Liberty Tax. I have one nearish me and have seen someone in a Statue of Liberty costume dancing about outside their shop before. Dismas|^(talk) 17:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you place a Toaster Oven on a plastic surface safely?

I have a small kitchen with little surface space, and this has made it impossible for me to set up my Cuisinart Classic Cuisine toaster oven broiler. So I asked a friend to buy me a cupboard of drawers to fill double duty (I don't currently have the cupboard space to fit my pans either.) My thought was that if he gets me basically a chest of drawers for my kitchen, I can put the pans in the drawers and the toaster oven on top of it.

Well, the chest of drawers he bought me is plastic. Toaster ovens get hot when in use I'm pretty sure, can I safely place a toaster oven on a plastic cupboard or do I need to buy a sheet of stone or something to go on top? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

This may not breach our medical/legal advice ban, but it's still a question we can't answer definitively because we don't know enough. I'm sure you will probably get plenty of opinions here; it's up to you to decide whether they are any more valid than your own. Here is a link to what I hope is the manufacturer's manual for your toaster oven. It says: 18. A fire may occur if the toaster oven broiler is covered or touching flammable materials such as curtains, draperies, and walls, when in operation. Do not store any items on top of the appliance when in operation. Do not operate under wall cabinets. It doesn't mention putting it on a plastic cupboard, but it does imply that the appliance can get hot enough to damage nearby flammable objects. For any more detailed advice, you should contact the manufacturer. - Karenjc (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

If necessary: I understand and affirm that any replies to this question are solicited and do not represent the opinions of Wikipedia or even necessarily the replier. They may contain errors and any actions or beliefs taken on my part from advice given in this section are the responsibility of solely myself. I claim any and all possible consequences for following the advice as my own and I will not pursue any sort of action, legal or otherwise, against Wikipedia or any of the repliers for this question. Also for what it's worth, I'm probably going to go buy some sort of covering regardless of what ends up being concluded, just to be on the safe side. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

If I was nervous about the toaster oven getting the surface too hot, I would place a ceramic tile on top of the cupboard - they're cheap and you can probably find a color that looks nice in your kitchen. Even just placing a baking sheet upside-down under the toaster oven would keep it from radiating heat straight into the plastic. Katie R (talk) 18:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I, too, would prefer to place something under the oven. Most of the heat will be convected upwards, but there will be a limited amount of radiated heat downwards, and a simple precaution is better than a regret when the top of the plastic surface distorts from the heat. An alternative would be to lift the oven an inch or more above the surface (so that you can get your hand underneath to see how hot it's getting). For safety, it would be necessary to ensure that the "legs" are firm and stable. Dbfirs 18:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that the plastic catching fire is only one risk due to overheating. It might also give off fumes, discolor, or crack, without ever catching fire. So, I agree that something under the toaster oven would be a good idea. There should ideally be an air gap between the chest and this item, as in a trivet. StuRat (talk) 04:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Anecdote: I had an oven toaster in Japan, placed on top of the fridge (plastic surface) and it melted a hole in the top of the fridge. I would advise buying a wooden chopping board or some sort of thermal insulator, and placing it on that, if the surface below would have been plastic. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

A glass chopping board? -- SGBailey (talk) 12:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Glass might crack. There is glass designed for the oven, but a chopping board might not be made of that. StuRat (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

If the USA is more violent because it is "new" then how to explain Australia and Canada?

I was reading Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature" where the author attempts to explain why humans have gotten progressively less homicidal from the stone age to the present. As we all know, the rates of homicide in the United States are much higher than in Europe. Pinker's hypothesis is that the USA short-circuited the state-civilizing process by going straight from anarchy to nominal monarchy to democracy, whereas most of the "old world" went from anarchy to feudal warlords, to monarchy to democracy. Pinker also asserts that the Western US and parts of the Southern US were anarchic until the early 20th century, which would explain the propensity to violence of the USA. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, however, are all similiarly "new" societies, but those nations have rates of violence more in line with Europe. Why are those nations not as violent as the USA? Jojo Fiver (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Because they don't have as much of an underclass of people who were deliberately and systematically oppressed by the majority population for centuries, and the lingering effects thereof. Any explanation that doesn't include the lingering effects of institutional bigotry on the socioeconomic situation in America is ignoring the biggest problem. The problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color-line. That problem didn't disappear in the blink of an eye, and lingering effects of poverty and the crime said poverty brings continues to be a problem into the 21st century. Pinker's hypothesis is interesting if we ignore all the real problems that are antecedents to violence in America. --Jayron32 21:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you have statistics or sources to validate the claim that this violence is derived from an "underclass", or is it just an opinion? After all, being the Reference Desk, we'd like some actual facts. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Australia and New Zealand absolutely have a racial "underclass": The Aboriginal peoples and the Maoris. Australia also had a large, unsettled "outback" arguably more "wild" than the American "old west." Still, the rates of violence in Australia and NZ are more in line with Europe than America. (The racial explanation was given in the "Better Angels" book as well but conveniently ignored the Aboriginals and Maori). Jojo Fiver (talk) 21:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I think a problem is you're only thinking of homicides. There is significant concern over violence, including domestic violence among New Zealand's 'underclass' and the stereotypical violent criminal in New Zealand is a a Māori or Pacific Islander. Homicides are likely lower in NZ for a number of reasons some mentioned elsewhere in this thread including much less access to guns, a different way police and the public deal with violent crime etc. AFAIK there is also generally much more access to social support in NZ than there is in US for those in the underclass or otherwise not very well off. Also while I don't want to underestimate or demean the discrimination face by Māori, I don't think it's generally been to the level of what went on in the US, there was obviously no official institutional slavery (well some Māori may have kept slaves and of course there may have been stuff similar to slavery [9]) nor was there anywhere the level of instutional segregation [10] yet I suspect there may have been a greater level of mutually voluntary segregation. Nil Einne (talk)

Aboriginal peoples in Canada generally haven't had the greatest time since the "new" country came about, either. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:45, January 29, 2014 (UTC)

The comparatively easy access to handguns and rifles in the US may contribute something, plus the fact that Hollywood action movies tend to have at least everyone except the main character die from either bullet wounds or in an explosion. Contrary to what you may beleive, European countries do, however, have their fair share of violence. We in the UK have shootings and stabbings on a near daily basis. They are just not newsworthy (worldwide) because it happens so often, and just becomes local news. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

European countries do of course have violence, but the rates for intentional homicide in the UK are much lower than the US. (Relatively easy to compare homicides rates, more difficult to compare overall violent crime rates due to wide variance between jurisdictions as to what constitutes a violent crime). See List of countries by intentional homicide rate where the homicide rate of the UK is 1.2 homicides per 100,000 population whilst that of the US is 4.7. (Suicides not included). In other words, you're almost 4 times as likely to be murdered in the US than in the UK. On the other hand, the homicide rate in Russia is 9.7, so the US is not particularly murderous compared to some parts of Europe. What is more striking is the disparity in firearm-related homicides - 0.04 in the UK and 3.6 in the US (stats as per List of countries by firearm-related death rate, some variance from year to year) so you're about 90 times more likely to be shot dead. (There were 38 firearm homicides in the UK in 2011, with numbers varying between 15 and 61 per year in the preceding decade [11], so while crimes involving guns do occur in the UK, there are very few deaths as a result). Valiantis (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The US homicide rate since the Civil War corresponds largely to prohibition form 1920-1932 and the war on drugs since the 1960's, corresponding largely to heroin and cocaine use. See this graph. About forty percent of homicides are currently directly drug related according to this source. I am not sure whether homicide includes suicide in this source. If it does, the vast majority of non-suicide homicides will be drug related. Perhaps someone can find a graph comparing suicide and drug-crime related deaths. μηδείς (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Jayron is probably on the right track. According to this government publication, homicide rates for black males are up to nine times those for white males. This doesn't fully account for the disparity with European countries and other former British colonies, since homicide rates for whites are still somewhat higher in the United States than in those countries. Still, a legacy of racism explains much of the disparity. This is a very complicated cultural phenomenon, having to do both with the (sometimes unconscious) racism of many non-blacks, which for example discourages black school-age children from hoping for academic success, and with a widespread despair among lower-class blacks at the prospect of success through legitimate means. Ultimately the roots of this dynamic go back to slavery and institutionalized racism in the United States. Feeding into that is a culture, especially among black (and also Latino and to a lesser extent white) urban adolescent males that glorifies violent crime and even considers it glamorous. (The wealthiest and most powerful people in some urban neighborhoods are successful criminals.) This fosters often homicidal gang activity. This culture of violence is disproportionately located in a lower-class nonwhite population that has faced and still faces racial barriers to legitimate success, but as Medeis points out, the drug trade plays a role in this, and many white homicides are involved in the drug trade. While Australia and New Zealand (and Canada for that matter) have oppressed racial minorities, I believe that this cultural dimension is missing. Also, of these countries, only in New Zealand does the oppressed minority make up anywhere near as large a share of the population as in the United States. As KageTora correctly points out, in many U.S. jurisdictions there are very weak or virtually no barriers to the acquisition of firearms. I know that rates of gun ownership in Canada are nearly as high as in the United States, but according to our Gun politics in Canada, to legally acquire guns in Canada a person has to go through a relatively strict licensing process. In many U.S. states, guns can be purchased, at least privately or at "gun shows", without any background check on the purchaser. This makes it easy for criminals to acquire guns. Guns are more effective at homicide than practically any other weapon. Putting together the combination of a unique and dysfunctional cultural dynamic around race, a thriving illegal drug trade, and easy access to guns, it is no surprise that homicide rates are higher in the United States than in other affluent countries. Marco polo (talk) 02:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I believe the way the US had to fight two wars to achieve independence from England (American Revolutionary War and War of 1812) made a difference. Since the US colonies had no large standing army to fight the war, this made it necessary to rely on "citizen militias", which often supplied their own guns and training, and this established a gun culture which then became enshrined in the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution in the US Bill of Rights. As correctly noted above, widespread availability of guns dramatically increases the homicide rate. StuRat (talk) 04:50, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the availability of guns and the culture of gun ownership is not, of itself, any direct cause. People who own guns don't instantaneously gain the desire to use them on other people. The desire to use guns on other people is a prerequisite to high murder rates, and in the U.S. the desire to use guns on other people is directly tied to hundreds of years of enforced poverty against racial minorities, leaving only criminal activity (i.e. drug trade) as a means to escape that poverty. If you eliminate the poverty and the racism, you eliminate most of the disparity between the U.S. and Canada, which as noted, has similar levels of gun ownership without a history of slavery and Jim Crow laws. --Jayron32 15:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a restatement of the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument of the NRA. The reality is that people get angry, especially impulsive people, and if they are well armed when this happens, they are far more likely to kill. If you can find a way to ensure that people will never be angry or impulsive, then guns would no longer cause deaths, I agree.

The US is also really bad at keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the violently mentally ill, or alternatively keeping the violently mentally ill locked up (they do keep criminals locked up fairly well). Things like gun shows with no background checks ensure a good supply of weapons to the most dangerous people. StuRat (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you all for your responses. Remember the issue is why the USA a higher homicide rate than Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, not debating whether the USA is more violent than Europe (which is obvious). Others have shown that firearm ownership is not the answer, as Canada has the same gun ownership rate as the USA. The racial underclass problem is something that Pinker mentioned in his work. Another thing was that the USA has at least three different regional cultures each that had differing paces of development. Knowing that, is Northern, Western, or Outback Australia more homicide-prone than Eastern Australia? Does the Maori minority in New Zealand have a higher homicide rate than white NZ? Jojo Fiver (talk) 21:10, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The Canadian natives seem to be "much more likely than non-Aboriginal people to be victims of violent crime and spousal violence" and are "highly overrepresented as offenders charged in police-reported homicide incidents and those admitted into the correctional system". InedibleHulk (talk) 22:10, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Could be a matter of temperature, too. Much of the American South is hot and muggy for most of the year, and densely packed with people, glass and concrete. Likely not the main cause, but fuel on the fire. More detail here. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:23, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

It surprises me to read that Canada has the same level of gun ownership of guns as the USA. Are they the same types of guns? With no formal evidence at all, I would hazard a guess that the public carrying of the types of guns that can be quickly used to hurt others would be more prevalent in the USA. Australia doesn't just have fewer guns than the USA. It has strict laws on where guns can be kept, on handgun and automatic gun ownership, on physical separation of gun storage and ammunition storage, on who can have them, etc. Do these differences exist between the USA and Canada too? HiLo48 (talk) 22:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

It's sort of apples and oranges, but compare Gun politics in Canada#Laws and regulations to Gun law in the United States. Also not sure of numbers, but in personal Canadian experience, I've seen many more guns that can't fit under a shirt than ones that can. Of course, there might be a more obvious reason for that. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:16, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

While there are some potential clues here (and some directly relevant figures under Crime and Calamity), I'm inclined to say it small, because Canadian TV propaganda teaches us we're too nice to boast, rather than too entitled to die. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

January 30

What happened in 2007?

Active Wikipedians

...that could explain the sudden halt to the steep rise in numbers of active Wikipedians (per graph)→
~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 01:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

• See market saturation and diminishing returns. No normal societal growth curve increases infinitely. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The standard societal growth curve should look more like the Logistic function in relation to reaching a saturation threshold (in 2007). There must be some causative action for the graph to deviate in such a significant way. This graph [12] is closer to a model of what a prediction would be (that graph relates to predicting the future states of large complex social systems; specifically, early identification of emergent processes —from here:[13]). ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that reality should look more like a model than reality. I've never seen a plot of real data that looked smoother than a curve that models it. One might as well say families that don't have 2.3 children are unrealities. μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Was there some redefinition of "active Wikipedian" in 2007? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:23, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I can only go by what the file description says: Wikipedians who contributed 5 times or more in a given month (no indication of any redefinition)

If this were a graph of bacterial populations in a petri dish, you would have to ask: "WTF happened?" ~Eric the Bacterium:71.20.250.51 (talk) 03:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

A better model for the Wikipedian experience is: Worms and Society (seriously). ~Eric the Worm:71.20.250.51 (talk) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I suspect two overlapping effects:

1) The normal "S Curve"/"logistic function"/"sigmoid function" we would expect with anything involving an "infection" of a population, as eventually everyone susceptible to infection (interested in contributing) already is infected (contributing). This would be asymptotic to a horizontal line at the end, and alone it is nothing to worry about. "Market saturation", as listed above, is another term for this.

2) A gradual reduction in interest by former long-term contributors. This is more of a potential problem. There does seem to have been a decision, at some point, to limit quantity and go for quality instead. Thus whole categories of topics are banned from Wikipedia, like those on common household objects. (I myself created an article on the linen closet, with a pic, which was deleted.) This, along with the tendency to delete anything lacking full references, now, discourages many people from participating. We seem to be headed back towards the first failed experiment, where Wikipedia was to be written solely be a small number of "experts". StuRat (talk) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

One might just as well ask what happened in the early parts of 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 to cause a sudden rise (approaching 10,000 in 2008 and again in 2011; smaller rises in the other years). And to keep this in perspective, the highest ever was c. 95,000 and the latest data point was at c. 75,000. I don't think it's time to call "Doomsday" just yet. It would be interesting to see how much of the content is provided by active users vs. other users, and whether that balance has altered significantly over time. It's the total quantity (of quality material) that matters in the end, not so much how many people are contributing that material. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but there must be some explanation for the discontinuity around March~April '07, such as a policy change or new software implementation. Referencing the worm model, Wikipedia "active editor population" is in decay phase (actual), rather than recovery (strategy projections) following the discontinuity. I haven't mentioned anything about "Doomsday" —a projection on your part— rather, the data is self-evident in indicating a change in conditions, and I am simply curious as to what that change might have been. ~E the IP:71.20.250.51 (talk) 06:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The Doomsday reference was in response to StuRat's "We seem to be headed back towards the first failed experiment, where Wikipedia was to be written solely be a small number of "experts".". It was indented under his post. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay. Please accept my apology in that regard. Btw, the annual cycle "in the early parts of..." (those years) is curious; something to do school cycle would be my guess. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 06:57, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Is 2007 when "edits must have references quoted" came into effect? That made being active harder. Also at the year turnovers, maybe folk make new year resolutions to contribute, or have time to discover WP during their Christmas break? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:58, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the upward blip at the beginning of each year has to do with the university cycle in the Northern Hemisphere. After the Christmas break, a new semester is about to begin, but the academic workload is not yet too heavy, nor do end-of-semester deadlines loom. Meanwhile, the weather is miserable, and the semester break isn't long enough for most students to have short-term full-time jobs (as many try to do during summer break, at least in the United States). The result is a lot of students with time on their hands for a month or two. Marco polo (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I remember getting turned off after five of my articles got flagged for deletion in a row back in 2008. I loved the encyclopedic format but it seemed I could never actually write what I wanted to without it getting deleted in full, and in general certain users kept reverting my edits and posting a link to some Wikipedia policy with a tenuous-at-best link to the situation. I eventually migrated to Wikia because I could actually publish my articles in peace, and now I almost exclusively use the Reference Desk. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Just wondering; when did bots start running around and leaving nasty notes on user talk pages?  ~Eric the Nonbot:71.20.250.51 (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Not sayin' anything but 2007 was when some unencyclopedic community building stuff like BJAODN got killed. Sure didn't encourage me to stick around. Not having the fun is no fun. 88.112.50.121 (talk) 20:03, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree that multiple effects are at work here, but the discontinuity in early 2007 is striking.

I notice that in late 2006 and early 2007 there was a lot of drama about the verifiability and attribution policies. (example). On their own this wouldn't cause a sudden change in editorship, but I think it's representative of how those guidelines were being taken much more seriously than they were in the past. For example the Great Webcomics Purge also occurred in early 2007. No doubt there were other purges going on as well.

I'm sure this sudden change in tone from "Post about everything!" to "articles should be notable!" drove away a lot of people that, nowadays, we would consider not serious about making an encyclopedia, but who, in early 2006, could have had great fun writing some unencyclopedic fluff articles. APL (talk) 00:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course, the general shape of the graph tracks pretty well with overall American internet usage, so I'm not suggesting that policy/tone changes are responsible for the overall shape of the graph, just the sharpness of that corner in 2007. APL (talk) 00:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. The overall internet usage is a good example of the logistic function, the first effect that was noted. But Internet usage is still growing, although at a decreasing rate ("leveling off"), while Wikipedia editing is actually decreasing. Thus, we need to explain the difference. StuRat (talk) 05:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

One thing I wanted to mention out that doesn't seem to have gotten much discussion is that if you look at the graphs, it's clear it isn't just en that was affected. Yes en did have a massive drop off in 2007 and the numbers went down; but growth for the top 2-10 and the rest also slowed down a lot even if these did generally continue to grow. I'm not particularly sure that the rest and top 2-10 had webcomic purges, references required etc at the same time as en, or maybe even at all. One possibility is the drop off in en, whatever the cause, reduced people who started at en and then moved on to language another wikipedia and you can come up with similar explainations which mean en contributed to the problems on the other wikis, but any explaination I think it's helpful to at least consider the other wikipedias when considering the en number drop offs. Nil Einne (talk) 12:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Unfamiliar Job Title Given the Company

I was looking on the back label of a jug of White House apple juice and there's a picture and testimonial of an employee of White House juices about how good a company it is and all, followed by their name, then "Traffic Coordinator, 24 year employee." What would "Traffic Coordinator" be for someone at a company that makes apple juice? 75.75.42.89 (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like they might be involved in distribution of the product. That is, they arrange shipments and must avoid "traffic jams" where more juice is delivered to a warehouse than is needed there, and it backs up the system. StuRat (talk) 03:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

A UK supermarket was putting comments from a different employee on banners outside the store each week. One such comment was from the "ambient manager" - I don't understand that job name! -- SGBailey (talk) 11:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Ambient goods are those which can be stored at ambient (i.e. room) temperature. An ambient manager is responsible for those goods not requiring freezing or refrigeration.

http://www.zerowastescotland.org.uk/content/retail-grocery-category-ambient

Dalliance (talk) 13:16, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

And there was I imagining they were responsible for the background music! -- SGBailey (talk) 14:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Yea, me too. I imagine they do have people responsible for figuring out what background music, volume, light level, colors, scents, etc., will make customers buy more, although those people are probably at the chain HQ, not individual stores. (For some businesses, like Cinnabon, I bet their scent wafting around the mall brings in most of their customers.) StuRat (talk) 14:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

My guess is similar to Stu's above. Usually these types of positions have titles involving logistics, supply chain management, or industrial engineering. In addition to the warehousing issues, there is also "traffic" within the production facility, i.e. how all the pulpers and hoppers and strainers get hooked up to each other. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:11, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

That's possible, but it seems less likely; someone taking care of internal "traffic" is usually called an "internal expediter" or something similar. "Traffic coordinator" usually refers to someone responsible for external haulage, either outbound (coordinating deliveries of the finished product) or inbound (coordinating deliveries of raw materials - i.e. apples). Matt Deres (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Fancy title for "Loading dock manager"? ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

In smaller places, yeah, but in larger operations, they're distinct things. A loading dock manager would oversee the transition of goods between trucks and the warehouse; for example, making sure the trucks are loaded correctly (sequencing can be surprisingly complicated) or making sure staff levels are appropriate throughout the week. An outbound traffic coordinator would oversee routing and delivery scheduling (and maybe stuff like the delivery trucks); an inbound traffic coordinator would be the person scheduling the inbound appointments (and maybe stuff like arranging temporary workers for lumping and offloading). Matt Deres (talk) 23:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Since nobody has pointed this out yet, I just thought I'd mention it. White House Apple Juice can call their employees by pretty much whatever job title that they want. Granted, banks and legal firms don't usually get too fanciful (as in fantasy) with their titles but toy companies and the like often have a bit less of a serious attitude about job titles. Vermont Teddy Bear, for instance, calls their phone sales reps "Bear Counselors". The woman who is in charge of the repairs department is referred to as "Doctor" though she holds no PhD. Subway used to and may still refer to their food prep people as "Sandwich Artists". And I can't remember the term right now but I could have sworn that Ben & Jerry's calls their ice cream scooping employees something whimsical. Dismas|^(talk) 01:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

And at the Disney theme parks, every employee, including the maintenance and custodial staff, are called "cast members". --Jayron32 02:53, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

And more and more shops insist on inviting you to ask a "colleague" if you need help, to which I always want to reply "I can't. My colleagues aren't here right now, because I'm in your shop. Is it OK if I ask one of your sales assistants instead?" -Karenjc (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The legality of Scottish Independence

How exactly is Scottish Independence legal? A portion of a sovereign state cannot unilaterally decide to become independent -- the state has to allow them to become independent, or else a Civil War situation would occur, like it did in the USA.

Now, I realise that Westminster, with the Queen's implied assent, has allowed Scotland to hold this independence referendum in 2014 (which itself is a major step), but in the language of the bill, there was nothing concerning enforcement of the referendum should the "yes" votes win.

In other words, it looks like London has agreed to let Scotland vote on independence BUT has NOT agreed to actually allow Scotland to secede if the referendum passes.

Am I missing something here? Thanks. Jojo Fiver (talk) 20:57, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

This seems to be in the nature of a political promise. Meaning, if the referendum passes but by only a very slim margin, Westminster could say that the desire for independence has been insufficiently demonstrated. And, indeed, it would probably be folly to enact independence on the back of such a slim margin. Exactly where the point is where they can no longer ignore the wishes of the Scottish people, is an open question.

I can't help recalling the Australian Capital Territory's path to self-government. Three times the voters of the ACT were asked in referenda whether they wanted to be self-governing or not, and three times they said NO, very clearly. Nevertheless, in 1989 the Federal Government enacted legislation to give them self-government, and the rest is history. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The article Scottish independence referendum, 2014, while lengthy, doesn't seem to address the one key question of whether such a vote is binding, or is merely an opinion poll. If I've overlooked the answer to that key question, maybe someone could quote it here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Is what you (Jack of Oz) said documented in writing in any law or treaty between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament? I ask this because obviously a lot of policymakers are draughting concrete plans for what to do in case of independence, such as what to do with the EU, Queen, military, currency, etc., but is there any prior understanding of what actually will happen if Scotland votes "yes" to independence? To Bugs, yes I thoroughly read the article in question, as well as having read the actual white papers and law passed allowing for the referendum... and I did not see any mention of the implementation or enforcement of the referendum should it pass. That's my main question. Jojo Fiver (talk) 21:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

What I know is what I read here, here and here etc. These talk of laws needing to be passed by Westminster post-referendum, and of matters needing to be negotiated between the UK and Scottish governments. We think of parliaments being rubber stamps, but that would be folly in a case like this. And with negotiations, who can ever predict the outcomes? That's why I believe that if the vote is in an undefined and fuzzy "grey zone", even if technically pro-independence, there's no guarantee that independence will follow immediately. Or ever. We need a legal expert to look at the Referendum Act to divine its real implications. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

The source you cited is basically talking about independence as a "done deal" with a yes vote. The site compares Maltese independence to the Scottish situation and does not at all ask the question "what if England refuses to recognise our independence?" Jojo Fiver (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. However, it would be asking whether the UK Parliament (which includes Scottish members and Lords) refuses, not whether England refuses. Not all Scots are for independence, and it's not impossible to imagine the final outcome depending on a crucial vote in Westminster, which fails because of Scottish anti-independence MPs. Sorry, but I don't know the answer to your question. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be very difficult for Westminster to not enact the legislation allowing Scotland to secede in the event of an overwhelming "Yes" vote. The outcome of the referendum doesn't trigger independence per-se, but would set the wheels in motion. Interestingly, the Liberal Democrats are due to have their party conference in Glasgow shortly after the referendum, which (if Scotland votes to leave), would put them in the awkward position of trying to hold their party conference in what is now, essentially, a foreign country. Horatio Snickers (talk) 10:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

cloverleaf holes in shutters

could someone tell me why there are cloverleaf holes in window shutters please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.9.77 (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

If you google [decorative window shutters] you will see a variety of decorative carvings. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe to let a little light or air in like the crescent on an outhouse door? Raquel Baranow (talk) 00:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

That's what's puzzling - true shutters are intended to keep the rain out. That's harder to when there are holes cut in the shutters. That's what makes me think they're purely decorative shutters, not functional. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:36, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Here's an article on the history of shutters that says: "Sometimes panels are pierced with ovals, circles or hearts to allow a small amount of light in even when closed." (The "even" in that sentence is unnecessary.) Raquel Baranow (talk) 02:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

January 31

JOHN HENRY FAULK, JUNIOR - WIKIPEDIA PAGE

DEAR WIKIPEDIA, __ IS IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU GUYS TO SET UP A DIRECT LINK FROM & TO THE JOHN HENRY FAULK, JUNIOR FIND-A-GRAVE MEMORIAL # 18203 PAGE & YOUR WIKIPEDIA PAGE FOR HIM. __ HE & 3 GENERATIONS OF HIS EXTENDED FAULK FAMILY ARE @ OAKWOOD CEMETERY IN AUSTIN, TRAVIS COUNTY, TEXAS, USA. __ ON HIS WIKIPEDIA PAGE YOU ALREADY HAVE LINKS TO HIS BROTHER, HAMILTON FAULK & SISTER, MARY KOOCK. __ LET ME KNOW ABOUT IT. __ THANX, __ MITCH FAULK [Personal info redacted] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitchfaulk (talk • contribs) 00:14, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

You can do this yourself, assuming that info has been published somewhere verifiable and reliable. Just not in all caps, please. I have removed your personal contact information, see the top of this page regarding that policy. μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

There's already a Find a Grave link in reference 22. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

names of people

What are the rules about posting names of people? I have tried to search for these rules, but could not find pertinent answers.

My name is Linda Gordon and there is a page about Linda Gordon, but it is not me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Gordon There are many people named "Linda Gordon". Would it be possible to be more specific about names, perhaps sorting by full name including middle name(s)? Also, region of birth/death and other criteria such as what the person is known for: politician, artist, author, etc. Thank you for your time. Linda Gordon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lindagordonx (talk • contribs) 02:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

From a quick check of the more obvious sources, it seems that the 'Linda Gordon' our article concerns (an American historian) either has no middle name, or doesn't customarily use it. As for 'posting names of people', I'm unsure what exactly you are asking. This is an encyclopaedia, and any biographies we have will concern individuals who meet the relevant notability criteria. We have no intention of listing every individual with a particular name, and the fact that a name is shared with other individuals is accordingly of no real significance to us. Where we have articles on notable people sharing the same name, we normally add as much detail as necessary to the title to disambiguate: see for example our long list of articles on people named William Davies - we only add individuals to such a list if we already have an article on them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I think perhaps the question relates more to how to find an article about a specific person with a common name.

It's a tricky problem. For example, if you search for my name (still no article about me...bah!) there is a "Steve Baker (motorcyclist)" - well, being a motorcyclist is not all there is to say about this guy - I'm sure he could come up with half a dozen other descriptions of himself. Worse still, there is a redlink to "Steve Baker (speedway rider)" - which is really a pain because he's also (pretty much by definition) a "motorcyclist". The more notable Steve Baker's there are, the harder it becomes to find snappy one or two word disambiguations to sort them all out. The system fails entirely when someone is equally famous for two or more different things...and we very frequently get it wrong. Our article on "Steve Baker (illusionist)" says that he's most famous as an escape artists - and is also a comedian. Sadly, I can't think of a better way to handle this.

Adding a middle name - or a birth date doesn't really help because very often someone is searching the encyclopedia to find out things like what some famous person's middle name is...and it doesn't help them to have to know the middle name in order to have to find out what their middle name is! Ditto for birth date.

So in the end, the compromise Wikipedia has settled on is to use the thing that the person is most famous for as the "disambiguation" term - on the very reasonable grounds that this is most likely to be the one thing that everyone who is searching for that person already knows about them.

In the case of Linda Gordon, it's not a very common name - and only one "notable" (in Wikipedia's rather specific meaning of that word) person with that name exists. Should it become evident that there is a second "sufficiently notable" Linda Gordon out there - then editors will doubtless create a disambiguation page to list them all - and (perhaps) move the existing Linda Gordon article to Linda Gordon (historian). But our policy here is not to do that until/unless we actually need to do it.

SteveBaker (talk) 03:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

For an example on how Wikipedia handles multiple people with the same name look at John Smith. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The current policy on this is at Wikipedia:Article titles, where it says "Usually, [article] titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. For instance, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic." and so on. Basically, we don't disambiguate titles unless there is a specific need to, usually as a result of there being more than one article that could reasonably use the same title. Matt Deres (talk) 12:02, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Laugh Lines

My laugh lines are getting dark and pigmented especially in the region near lip corners. Can I use No Marks anti marks cream for getting rid of the dark regions ? What is the alternative for it ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.15.60.174 (talk) 05:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

We are not allowed to give medical advice. You need to see a doctor, perhaps a dermatologist. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It is not medical but actually a cosmetic one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.15.60.174 (talk) 07:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah that is not a request for medical advice. --Viennese Waltz 08:39, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

You can use anything you want to get rid of the dark regions. Personally, I choose not to laugh so much. Works wonders for me, and the women still love my baby-face features, even at the age of 41. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

This is where cosmetics and medicine blur. I could recommend she find a brightening cream or serum, or a non-injectable filler, but are those products cosmetics or medical? --TammyMoet (talk) 12:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Trying to diagnose a medical problem based on them, or treat them surgically, would be medical advice. Trying to cover them up is not. StuRat (talk) 17:29, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

To the OP: If they are just dark because they are deeper, and less light makes it to the bottom, then filling them in with makeup might be an option. StuRat (talk) 17:32, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

• The user needs to talk a doctor. Darkening of the skin has all sorts of causes, some serious. We can neither diagnose this as a benign condition nor advise that a cosmetic solution is appropriate. μηδείς (talk) 17:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if it's genetics or I use a hydrating cream after showering (a generic brand of Oil of Olay), I sweat a lot during exercise (cleans pores) or drink a lot of water but I'm 59 and have only a few wrinkles around my eyes. (Also, I like the sun, which isn't good for skin.) Raquel Baranow (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Largest fishing fleet

Which country has the world's largest fishing fleet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrei Marzan (talk • contribs) 06:30, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Since the highest total yield by far is the People's Republic of China, it is very likely that they have the largest fishing fleet (see: Fishing industry by country; sort by total). ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 08:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Look at Fishing fleet which indicates that in 2002 there were about 4,000,000 vessels. China had half of the worlds largest vessels. So China could have less vessels but catch more fish. Wikianswers gives Japan but I have no idea how reliable that is. The actual answer may be here but it requires an account. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 09:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I was able to read it by clicking on the 'read online' button (eye symbol). The relevant table is on pg. 17. Unfortunately, it only lists OECD members and non-member countries who agree to participate. China isn't one of them; neither is Russia, surely another big fleet. Dalliance (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Does "largest fishing fleet" mean the most fishing boats, regardless of size ? Are recreational fishing boats included ? StuRat (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Amount of grain in hoop-las

Hi, just wondering about multi-grain hooplas, there's the implication that there's five equal quantities of grain indicating the five individually coloured hooplas, but when you look at the ingredients 74% of the hooplas are cereal flour, split into 44% oat, 13% barley, 9% wheat 4% maise and 4% rice, so if this is the case why are the hooplas equally distributed in colour, is this artificial to suggest that the level of grain is equally balanced when the hooplas are actually mostly oat? Horatio Snickers (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Could you explain what meaning of hoopla you're using? Matt Deres (talk) 12:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Indications are that it's a Cheerios-like cereal made by the Sainsbury's company. There is no mention of "hoopla" in that article, but there are a number of Google hits for the product. As to the specific question, that would take more research. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:26, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Well the list of ingredients here includes colours, and that would be definitive, over any "implication". Where is it implied that there are five equal quantities?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:08, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

I would guess they advertise that they contain 5 grains, and they also have 5 colors of cereal pieces, so people infer that each of the 5 pieces is made from a different grain. This is probably intentional, legal deception on their part. (Of course, the food industry is full of such deception, such as "juice" that contains little or no actual juice, just colored, artificially flavored, corn-syrup and water.) StuRat (talk) 17:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

VFW Posts claiming to be first

Hello, Your page referencing the VFW states in the history section, "There are two other Posts which claim to be the first, but the VFW ....". There is no other elaboration to explain this statement any where I can find (background pages and/or archives).

Which Posts claim to be the first? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.121.74 (talk) 10:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Good question. The sentence gives a reference, but the link is to the front page of the VFW1 website, which says nothing about two other claimants, and would probably not be an ideal reliable source anyway. For people unfamiliar with the topic, the article in question is VFW. Matt Deres (talk) 12:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

This edit, by an IP, about 3 years ago, may provide some insight.[14] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:53, 31 January 2014 (UTC)