Talk:Michael Jackson

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Slash

Block evasion by Special:Contributions/92.10.210.184.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Slash should be in the associates acts.89.241.108.216 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2019 (UTC) We cant add every single person Michael worked with. Only the most significant. - Awardmaniac (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC) Michael's association with Slash lasted many years. I'm a little curious why his association with Janet, Lionel Richie or Stevie Wonder is considered more significant. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC) Slash was never credited as a featuring artist. He played guitar on some of his songs and some times on stage. But so did some other people. Janet and Michael did a hit song together and have worked together few times with other stuff. Stevie wonder has done some duets together. Lionel Richie and Michael wrote one of the best selling songs of all time. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Michael's middle name is Joe. It's misleading to say it's Joseph.

His birth/legal name had always been Joe. It's been on his FBI file. I know he has written "Joseph" a few times but that doesn't mean it's his birth name. Joe has been used more than Joseph throughout his life and in documents that demand a legal name. His marriage certificate with Lisa Marie Presley is riddled with errors so it's not reliable, therefore its legality is in question, too.

Wikipedia shouldn't mislead people or produce falsehoods. Please change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Partytemple (talk • contribs)

Can you provide links to prove this? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

FBI files used Michael Joe Jackson:

https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20Part%2003%20of%2007/view

It also states his true name was Michael Joe Jackson on page 47 of the files.

2004 Indictment used Michael Joe Jackson:

https://la.utexas.edu/users/jmciver/357L/Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20indictment.pdf

Autopsy report used Michael Joseph Jackson:

http://www.thetruthaboutmj.com/Autopsy_Full_Report_0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf

1994 Deposition; Michael referred to himself as Michael Joseph Jackson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTo8M_V_Oh4

Further citations and explanations of name usage and laws on this blog: http://mjjinfo.blogspot.com/2012/04/michael-jacksons-birth-name-truelegal.html

It appears he used Joe and Joseph interchangeably, but his true name has Joe as his middle name. He probably used Joseph because it was derived from his father's name which is Joseph, but also uses Joe.

Here is a video disputing Michael and Lisa Marie's marriage's legality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxOv-Ap0_4

The title sounds like a click-bait conspiracy video, but the actual content came from an investigative report.

The marriage certificate in question (ignore the forum comments if you'd like but the image of the marriage certificate appears to be real): http://mjwc.proboards.com/thread/947/michael-lmp-marriage

Priscilla Presley and Katherine Jackson are spelled incorrectly. The location of the ceremony is questionable.

Also, Michael's article uses Taraborrelli's book a lot. I find Taraborrelli's research of his subjects scant, as if he would pick up tid-bits of statements from relatively reliable sources and then put in his own uncorroborated material for parts he can't complete with what he found, or fictionalize his subjects into caricatures. In other words, his biographies could be filled with his own fluff.

For example, he wrote a story about Michael and Madonna's date in which he claimed Michael told him that Madonna took Michael's sunglasses off and threw it out of the car they were in. Madonna inadvertently disputed this story by stating in her VMAs tribute to Michael in 2009 (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/read-madonnas-vmas-speech-dedicated-to-michael-jackson-82857/) that Michael willingly tossed his glasses.

I think Taraborrelli's materials require cross-examination, if possible. Michael Jackson was an extremely private person who had a retinue of bodyguards, PR people, and managers, many of whom would be willing to protect his image even unto their deaths. It may be impossible to know Michael's private life to its full extent, so I would refrain from using Taraborrelli's books especially when they're replete with personal details. Court documents and FBI investigations, on the other hand, are much more reliable since perjury, or lying to the Fed's, is a felony. Partytemple (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

That's quite some digging! As for spelling errors on the marriage certificate (presuming that's the real thing), I could be wrong, but my guess is that the document not being in English had something to do with it. I would however like to get input from other users before changing things because "Michael Joe Jackson" has for quite some time been listed as an alternate name while "Michael Joseph Jackson" has been accepted as the main identity. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems like it is Joe. since that name is being used in all legal situation. But then again the death certificate say it's Joseph. If we change to "Michael Joe Jackson". I think we should mention Joseph to, somewhere. Since that is what he called himself and etc. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Infobox caption

The caption should give the date but not re-state his name. It's obvious it's a picture of Michael Jackson, because his name is directly above the photograph, and also the title of the article, and he's the only person in the picture. Who else would it be? Nobody would be confused by this. For readers who do not get pictures, they don't need a description of a picture they don't see. "Michael Jackson performing in 2006" does not assist the reader in any way. The reader would see "Michael Jackson [image not shown] (in 2006)" instead of "Michael Jackson [image not shown] Michael Jackson performing in 2006". I'd be ok with "Performing in 2006" as a compromise, but that is also bloody obvious from the fact that it's a picture of him singing into a microphone. WP:YOUDONTSAY, and this should be the rule for all captions everywhere on the project. Leviv ich 23:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

How would you feel about including a specific event/place if known? For the current pic (File:Michael Jackson in 1988.jpg), there could be something on the Wiener Stadion in Austria within its caption. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I would feel great about that. Location and date are both information that would be useful to the reader. Even the name of the tour if that were known. Leviv ich 00:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: IMO, a good caption for that picture would be something that gives useful (non-obvious) information to the reader, like this: At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988, during the second leg of the Bad World Tour. Leviv ich 00:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The leg part is a bit much, and its file source doesn't specify a tour (though I personally wouldn't be surprised if it was from that one). I'm still fine with including stadium and location. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I like "At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988, during the Bad World Tour". Is that good or is it to long? Awardmaniac (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Too long; we're better off just using a tour name (if it can be found for certain) or just a location. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Bad World Tour lists the June 2, 1988 show in Vienna. At the time it was called the Praterstadion and I guess now it's the Ernst-Happel-Stadion aka Weiner Stadion. I'm good with any combination of city/venue/date/tour. Leviv ich 01:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Maybe just "At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988" Awardmaniac (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I've gone with "At the Weiner Stadion in Vienna, Austria on June 2, 1988" here. Let's not presume everyone who understands the English language automatically knows where Vienna is. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Good. I like it. Awardmaniac (talk) 01:13, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks! Leviv ich 01:14, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

HBO

Any thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

No. what about it? Awardmaniac (talk) 00:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously? How will this article cover it? --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

It already has its own article: Leaving Neverland. If it gets enough coverage to become super-notable it might be worth mentioning briefly in the main Michael Jackson article, but right now it isn't. Popcornduff (talk) 07:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Because it is negative? --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No. Because MJ is a huge topic, the article on him is already huge, and this single documentary hasn't yet established enough attention to be mentioned here. See WP:UNDUE. If it gets more attention and coverage after it's released next month that might change. Popcornduff (talk) 08:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

It has already been covered in this article and in Leaving Neverland. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Do we need to have a verbatim quote rubbishing it? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Its a respond from the family, both sides should and are being used. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

A "respond"? This isn't how Wikipedia articles are written. It certainly isn't how Featured Articles are written. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I meant, it shows both sides. As bth sides should and is being written about. That is how Wikipedia works. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I stand corrected. I didn't realise the article already mentions the documentary. I agree that the current inclusion isn't right - there's too much emphasis on the family reaction. I'm not convinced the doc is even notable enough to be mentioned here at all, as I said earlier.

@Awardmaniac: The job of Wikipedia is not always, necessarily, to report both sides. See WP:FALSEBALANCE. Popcornduff (talk) 12:45, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

There is literally just one quote, nothing more. Also I do agree that the film is not notable enough to be mentioned. There are hundreds of movies and docs about him, that gets released every few months, non get even mentioned. So we can remove it from this article. Awardmaniac (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for any quote here. In my opinion there is a need to mention the documentary. --MarchOrDie (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I removed it, since we all seem to agree. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• No, I don't agree to that. As I just said. MarchOrDie (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

You just said "there is a need to mention the documentary" and popcornfuff said the doc is not notable enough to be mentioned. No? Awardmaniac (talk) 19:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes exactly. I think there is a need to mention the documentary. So I do not agree to its removal. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I accidentally read a as no. lol. Still at this moment two people say, there is no need and one say there is a need. You are welcome to argue your point. But I think we can not and should not mention every single film made about him in this page, this is not IMDB. "Leaving Neverland" is not mentioned, the same reason "Michael Jackson: Life of an Icon" is not mentioned. Its not relevant. Awardmaniac (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

LOL indeed. Twice. Consensus is not a voting process. Coverage in significant quality sources. Guardian, NME, Esquire, Variety, etc etc. And that's before it has even screened. I think this line you are taking will be very hard to justify. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Well those coverage is significant for the Leaving Neverland article. Many other stuff that is about him has also received significant coverage. Does not mean they are fit for the main page about the subject. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I think it will depend on how much, if at all, the documentary affects Jackson's legacy. As Awardmaniac says, there have been a trillion documentaries about Michael Jackson over the years, and while some (including Leaving Neverland) are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles, not all are notable enough to add to the main Michael Jackson article, especially considering its length.

Right now the film is being discussed because it was screened at Sundance so the reviews are out there. My inclination is to wait for the documentary to receive the major release (next month, right?) and see how important it ends up being to the article subject in terms of the big picture.

That said, I don't feel strongly about this. I would not oppose summarising the documentary in a single sentence if others felt it were necessary. Popcornduff (talk) 08:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

That's perfectly reasonable. The length of the article is another problem that can be dealt with separately; see section below. The article is not currently of Featured Article quality, and a lot of the problem is fluff that has been added since the subject's death. --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:34, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I see no consensus for this removal. There should at least be a "See also" link in the section pointing to that page. Jackson documentaries that are notable enough for their own articles should be linked from this main article in some way, just like we link other subarticles in some way.

I also see no valid rationale for stating that the article "is not currently of Featured Article quality." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Updated "Associated acts"

I think we should discuss what artist deserves to be named in that list. Like, Michael only did one song with Lionel Richie. Does he really deserve a spot? Awardmaniac (talk) 00:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No, he doesn't. The list isn't for one-off collaborations. Off the top of my head I'd say only the Jacksons should be in that list. Popcornduff (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I would leave Quincy Jones and Teddy Riley as well, though I hesitate to call a producer an "act". Eman235/talk 04:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I did consider that, but as both Riley and Jones served as producers with MJ, I'm not sure they served in capacity as "acts" either. Popcornduff (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Given Michael's multiple collaborations with his sister Janet, I'd say she qualifies along with Jackson 5. Definitely not supposed to be a list of one-song-only collaborations. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Michael has a couple of songs with Paul, stevie and diana ross. I think they qualify. right? Awardmaniac (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Nope. Would need to be an act he worked with pretty extensively or regularly, like he did with the Jacksons, or an act that he's particularly notable for working with. MJ isn't most noted because of his work with Stevie Wonder. Popcornduff (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

So. Only the Jacksons?. Is everyone on board with this? Awardmaniac (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Just Janet and Jackson 5. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:13, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Some other names have done multiple collaborations with Michael. Have they not? I dont understand how Janet is any different other then being his sister. Is it because they have worked together for a longer period of time? Awardmaniac (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

That's valid, I guess. Since the work together has been for many many years, unlike the other ones. What does popcornduff think? Awardmaniac (talk) 22:32, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Despite having done extensive work on MJ-related articles I'm not the biggest MJ fan. I know he did a duet with Janet on Scream. What else? I did a quick google but it didn't produce anything obvious. Popcornduff (talk) 07:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Needs review

I was just reading the 2008 discussion to make this a FA. Standards were lower in those days and/or the article has deteriorated. I think it now needs to be reviewed. My preference would be to do that here. Any thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The article looks fine. Well written and well sourced. And it seems to follow all the standards by the looks of it. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, thanks for your opinion. Any thoughts on the question I asked? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

You can review it if you want. I have no problem with that. Im all for any kind of improvement if necessary. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm talking about WP:FAR. It'd be better to discuss here first I think. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure. You can do that if you want. I dont think that is needed at the moment. But that is just me. Let see what other people think. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No indeed, it is not up to you. If we can't talk out the problems with the article here, we will have to involve others. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree. I just gave my opinion. That's it. Please don't be hostile or anything. We are all here to help. Thank you. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, a number of experienced editors have kept this article in good shape. The edit history shows this. The article has expanded over the years, but it has also been trimmed and tweaked over the years where needed. I don't see that it isn't FA anymore or needs to be demoted. If you could make a valid case for why it's not of FA quality anymore, I'd be inclined to agree. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, seems like we have some overdetails and images in this article. --Chrishonduras (talk) 22:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Here's a sample of some problems that I see on reading the article:

Lead

• Los Angeles, California, U.S. is overlinking
• Dubbed the "King of Pop"... but then we link the same article under see also. WP:SEEALSO says not to do this.
• Cites in lead; why? Doesn't seem to conform to WP:LEADCITE.
• In 1993, he was accused of sexually abusing the child of a family friend; the case led to an investigation but was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in 1994. Why "but"?
• In 2005, he was tried and acquitted of further child sexual abuse allegations and several other charges after the jury found him not guilty on all counts. So he was acquitted and found not guilty? Hmm.

I also notice that he dies twice (three times including the lead). Like I say, standards have risen and the quality of the article has fallen away since the version that was promoted. There's a lot that needs to be improved in the article for it to meet FA standards. --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Some good copyediting points there. Would you be interested in doing a ce sweep of the article or does that inspire dread? Popcornduff (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, you are talking about minor issues that are easily and quickly fixed. You have not pointed to one major issue. You ask "why" use "but." Why not? It seems to me that the editor used "but" because the investigation did not lead to a trial. If you want to add "and" in place of "but," do so. You stated that you "notice that he dies twice (three times including the lead)." Huh? The lead states "Jackson died of acute propofol and benzodiazepine intoxication, after suffering from cardiac arrest." It also mentions that the Coroner "ruled his death a homicide." And it states "Jackson's death triggered a global outpouring of grief, and a live broadcast of his public memorial service was viewed around the world." Are we not supposed to use the word death again in the lead after initially noting he died? I'm not sure what you mean about dying twice, with regard to the lead or elsewhere in the article. As for cites in the lead, WP:LEADCITE is clear that it's a case-by-case matter. So I don't see why you think having cites in the lead of this article doesn't conform to WP:LEADCITE. WP:FAR, in the "Nominating an article" part of the text, states, "Before nomination, raise issues at talk page of the article. Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article." Well, that is what we are doing. You are free to copyedit, obviously. Popcornduff is always copyediting the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the article needs more than a "copyedit", it is so bad.

• What and where is the "Weiner Stadion"?
• About half of the Aftermath section needs to go.
• Overall, the article reads like it was written by fans, and that's not a good read. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • 90% of the stuff about Wade Robson can go, for a start. Popcornduff (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
    • I agree. This section isn't NPOV to the degree required for FA. --MarchOrDie (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Still nothing substantial pointing to a need to delist the article. About half of the Aftermath section needs to go? Why? The article reads like it was written by fans? I'm not seeing it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I think you need to look at more celebrity WP:GA and WP:FA articles, ranging from musician articles to actor articles, to get a sense of what is acceptable. And especially the ones that reached WP:GA and WP:FA relatively recently. I state this because comparing this article to the various WP:GA and WP:FA celebrity articles I see any day, including ones that have reached WP:GA and WP:FA relatively recently, I cannot at all see what you mean by "it is so bad." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

So you consider the Aftermath section currently meets standards? Other articles need not concern us here. MarchOrDie (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

That parts of an article need improvement does not automatically equate to "this article needs to be delisted." "FA" does not automatically equate to "perfect." More from me below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Here's another beauty: It was reported that Jackson had offered to buy the bones of Joseph Merrick (the "Elephant Man") and, although untrue, Jackson did not deny the story. So, Jackson was untrue? A lot of this is poorly written, it suffers from too positive a tone; for example, there are 13 instances of the word "successful". I know Jackson was a very successful entertainer, but 13 is too many. Here's the worst instance: HIStory was promoted with the successful HIStory World Tour, beginning on September 7, 1996, and ending on October 15, 1997. Jackson performed 82 concerts in five continents, 35 countries and 58 cities to over 4.5 million fans, and grossed a total of $165 million, becoming Jackson's most successful tour in terms of audience figures. (my emphasis); the article is riddled with stuff like this. The prose is not, in my considered opinion, "engaging and of a professional standard". --MarchOrDie (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• I've reworked that tour bit here. Something to keep in mind is that multiple instances of "successful" are part of a distinction, namely "Most Successful Entertainer of All Time" Guinness World Record, and one of them is contained within a citation title. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• I'm well aware of that and well done for changing that one word. Here's another cracker; this is from the first of the two times he dies: Less than three weeks before the first show was due to begin in London, with all concerts sold out, Jackson died after suffering cardiac arrest. Some time before his death, it was reported that he was starting a clothing line with Christian Audigier. Textbook non sequitur. And I see we still have the "Weiner Stadion". On the plus side, we also have an article improvement tag. That's good, because this article could do with some improvements. --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• It is best remembered for Jackson's solo performance of "Billie Jean", which earned Jackson his first Emmy nomination. Why say the name twice? --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:56, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• His subsequent rhinoplasty was not a complete success; he complained of breathing difficulties that would affect his career. "Would"? Meaning he was worried that it might? Or meaning that it did? It's almost every sentence. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

And as I've already suggested to you before, copyedit the article. Beyond sentences that can do with better wording, which is something that also applies to a number of articles that recently reached FA standard, and beyond material that should be trimmed, you have yet to make a strong case that we should delist this article. A case to review it? Yes. That is happening now. Like WP:FAR notes, an official review is not necessarily needed to improve an article. I've also noted above that WP:FAR is partly about attempting to fix matters before trying to delist an article. The goal isn't even to delist the article. The goal is improvement. Consistently pointing out wording issues, or issues you consider to be wording issues, on this talk page instead of fixing the matters yourself prolongs the improvement process. Expecting us to make changes per things you've identified as problems isn't the best route to take unless it's clear that we (or at least one of us) are following your lead. I don't mean any offense by this, but some of the things you've identified seem like nitpicking to me. For example, I did not get "So, Jackson was untrue?" from the text you pointed to above. You keep talking about FA standards, but I don't see that you have brought articles to FA status. If you brought one more articles to FA status, pointing to one or more of them as indicators of your experience and examples of good prose might be helpful. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't particularly want to have it delisted, but I do want it to be greatly improved. I hope we can agree on the need for this from the examples I have given, and the editors who have agreed with me. I wasn't aware we had to prove our credentials like this to have our opinions taken seriously, but since you ask, I was co-nom on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Little Moreton Hall/archive1 and had a fair bit of input on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Maus/archive2. Both articles were considerably better written than this one. I hope we can work together to sort out the problems under discussion. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I agree with the points you raise here about the prose problems. (BTW, I think Flyer is missing the problem with the "Jackson was untrue" part.) I've personally removed hundreds of words from the article over the years, but it still needs more work. I don't even think the biography part is the worst part.

That said - having written and reviewed a few FAs, and being dismayed at the quality of prose, I've stopped caring about FA. Without wanting to lecture, I do feel a bit of WP:SOFIXIT coming here. You've taken the time to identify several prose problems - so fix them! Popcornduff (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's fair comment and you're not the first to suggest it. I think there will be quite major cuts from the post-death stuff (and elsewhere) and I don't want to go to a lot of work then for it to be reverted using the article's FA status as a reason. --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

"This article passed FA, therefore no change can be an improvement" is the thing that takes me from neutral to furious in the fastest time on Wikipedia. Just go for it. Popcornduff (talk) 08:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, regarding credentials, there have been editors going on about what is good or featured article material with no experience on what is good or featured article material. The comments are often based on their personal preference rather than on what is an acceptable GA or FA article. Sometimes they simply want the article delisted because they don't like that the article is GA or FA. Yes, they may sometimes have a valid case about the prose needing work or that something should be cut, but anyone who has seen or actually been involved in an FA discussion knows that it's not uncommon for editors to disagree on what is better prose or on what should be included or excluded. All I was stating is that I don't see anything that screams "Shouldn't be an FA article anymore" when I look at the article. That things need improvement doesn't automatically mean "Shouldn't be an FA article" to me. I see that you have been copyediting and making some cuts. That's a start toward improvement. If you remove something that you think an editor is likely to object to, it's likely best that you address the matter on the talk page first.

Popcornduff, LOL. I understand what you mean regarding the "This article passed FA, therefore no change can be an improvement" argument. Obviously, besides some articles being able to be improved even after passing FA, some FA articles do lose their FA quality. And, as made clear by MarchOrDie, the FA standards might have changed since the article passed FA. But I also understand WP:STEWARDSHIP. Its section about featured article states, "While Featured articles [...] are open for editing like any other, they have gone through a community review process as Featured article candidates, where they are checked for high-quality sources, a thorough survey of the relevant literature, and compliance with the Featured Article criteria. Editors are asked to take particular care when editing a Featured article; it is considerate to discuss significant changes of text or images on the talk page first." And WP:CAREFUL advises similarly. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

The Aftermath section is a problem. It needs trimming, and probably also needs to be split into smaller sections, unless we're going to consider everything that happens for the rest of time to be the "aftermath" of Jackson's death. Popcornduff (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree on both counts. Articles tend to look like this when they have been written by fans. We don't need every single thing about him recorded. The article is more powerful and more readable if we can be discriminating and use editorial judgement about what, in the big scheme of things, he will be remembered for. I've started to whittle away at it over the last two days (thanks to the three other editors who contributed to that diff). He only dies once now, and some of the worst ambiguity, repetition and fanspeak has been toned down. The data tables were out of place; it'd be nice if there was some place on Wikipedia to keep them, but this article wasn't it. There's more of course, but I thought I'd pause and give others a chance to chip in. --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

You made a lot of good changes to the article. Regarding this, though, I'd avoid "denied" per WP:Claim. And like I noted before, there was no need at all to remove the references out of the lead; in this case, it's a personal preference matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I changed it; I couldn't live with "adamant" on an encyclopedia article. Regarding cites in the lead, you're right that it's a matter of choice; but two points. First, I always see dozens of superscripts in the lead as a terrible sign of a "controversial" article which is under constant dispute. A stable article can show this by just citing things in the body. Second, in sifting through the lead, I found quite a few things that weren't mentioned anywhere else. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section tells us "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Whether we need all these factoids is another question, of course, but they shouldn't be in the lead and nowhere else. --MarchOrDie (talk) 19:28, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I understand what you mean about citations in the lead indicating that the topic is controversial, but I don't often get that impression when I see citations in the lead unless I know it's a controversial topic. Yes, Jackson is a controversial topic in part, but he's no longer alive and the child sexual abuses cases are well-known. So, other than the occasional editor who might wonder if something in the lead is cited lower in the article or the newbie who thinks that something in the lead isn't cited at all because they don't see a reference for it there, I don't much mind that you moved the references out of the lead. But again, WP:CITELEAD does note when sources should be in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I put hidden text in for the newbie. Speaking for referencing, don't you think a lot of it is over-referenced? I can't see how we would need more than two references for most things. On the other hand, I think we should be very careful with primary sources. --MarchOrDie (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, I think it's untenable to have the note on the controversy about his actual sales only appear in the lead. --MarchOrDie (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

If it's fine either way to have citations in the lead, I say remove them. Why include something we don't need?

MarchOrDie, your work on this article has been stellar. Keep up the good work. By the way, you know that, strictly speaking, a factoid is a false statement presented as fact, right? I assume when you say "factoid" here you mean in the newer sense of "trivia" but just checking... I don't mean to be pedantic, just trying to figure out what your stance on this info is. Popcornduff (talk) 02:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Popcornduff for the recognition and for your help in trimming and honing the article. Speaking as a pedant myself, I love that you zoom in on my use of language like that. I mean it in the second sense, but of course, in most cases truth is subjective and consensual, so the two meanings are probably two ends of a continuum rather than separate concepts.

Here's another reference-related issue. At present we have:

Jackson explored genres including pop, soul, rhythm and blues, funk, rock, disco, post-disco, dance-pop and new jack swing.

I think on an important peer-reviewed high-traffic article like this those references should be bundled so there is one superscript in the running text (neater) but also, importantly, they should be attributed in the bundled reference. So we know who said "pop", who said "soul", and so on. I don't regard this as controversial and I would have done it myself, but I don't know how. Does anybody here know how to do that? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I imagine Template:Refn would be involved, but I can't for the life of me figure it out. --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, yes, I saw the hidden note. Some newbies might comment before attempting to edit the article, though. And readers who are not editors won't see the hidden note. But it's not a big deal that you moved the references out of the lead. As for this, why did you remove the Paul McCartney material? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

As for WP:BUNDLING, yes, I know how to do it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Can you show me? Or direct me to an intelligible instruction set? As for Macca, you're referring to According to Paul McCartney, he contacted Yoko Ono about making a joint purchase by splitting the cost at £10 million each, but Ono thought they could buy it for £5 million each. and An attorney for McCartney assured Branca that McCartney was not interested in bidding. McCartney felt it was too expensive, but several other companies and investors were interested in bidding. I thought, and still do think, that this is an excessive degree of detail on an article about Michael Jackson. The article suffers from over-comprehensiveness, which is one of three reasons it is so long (although I think it's better than it was a week ago). The others are over-referencing and (although I've tried to tone it down somewhat) a slight air of having been written by fans, for whom every word and action of Jackson needs to be recorded. It doesn't, and what person C thought person D thought about a business deal doesn't belong either. In my opinion. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding bundling, do you mean what I did with this reference (reference 164) at the Star Wars: The Last Jedi article? If so, this edit shows how I did it. As for McCartney, that material seems relevant because McCartney felt the need to comment on that. If it wasn't important that he clarified, why did he? That stated, we can leave that to the Sony/ATV Music Publishing article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

___

References

Primary sources?

I see a few things cited to things on the Smoking Gun website. Opinion is divided on whether this constitutes a primary or a secondary source for Wikipedia's purposes. A fair summary is "use with care". What makes this a high-quality source for a Featured article? If there is material there that can be better sourced, maybe we should keep it. But we are drowning in material and the article might be better for removal of some of the dubiously sourced stuff. Thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

When I was hacking my way through the (once godawful, now hopefully slightly less so) Trial of Michael Jackson article, I threw out any reference to the Smoking Gun. It looks dubious to me and there seems to be uncertainty about exactly how great a source it is. We should do better. Popcornduff (talk) 02:54, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I've removed them. --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

1994 « out of court settlement »

In the introduction, regarding the first accusation of sexual abuse, it is said that “the case led to an investigation but was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in 1994”. Then in the dedicated section, it is said that “On January 1, 1994, Jackson settled with the Chandlers out of court for $22 million”. This statement doesn't seem to be sourced (I haven't checked the sources provided for the following sentences of that paragraph). So where does this information come from, and how reliable is it ?--Abolibibelot (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I changed to "an undisclosed amount" for now, since the source makes no mention of 22 million. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to change it but I heard the amount was $25 million, with $18 million alone to the accuser. I can source it but I fear they may just revert it. I think "undisclosed" is good for now but whatever it was, it was definitely in the $20-25 million range. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 02:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I think if we can get a decent source for the amount, we should use it. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Spoken Wikipedia audio file available

I have created an audio reading of this article and uploaded it to the Commons, but am unable to edit the article to add it to the External Links. Could someone do that for me? (FYI it's my first time doing this.) Thanks. —TeragR ^disc./con. 09:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

 Erledigt --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 00:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Jermaine Jackson "plan b"

It should be noted that it was unknowingly by Michael that Jermaine had apparently planned this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Jackson&diff=885810817&oldid=885810418). Awardmaniac (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Why? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems of doubtful relevance. ——SerialNumber54129 15:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Because it is different if someone knows or dont know. It should be added or all of it should be deleted. Awardmaniac (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Who says it is important? Do we have a decent reference that says it makes a difference to the story? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

This is called misinformation. The source says one thing. But wikipedia says another. Awardmaniac (talk) 12:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Can Someone Edit this Part

At the end of the 3rd paragraph under the section "1993–1994: First child sexual abuse allegations and first marriage" there is this sentence:

"Feldman denied that anybody's silence had been bought."

However, there is no mention of anyone named "Feldman" anywhere in the preceding paragraph, or in the entire article for that matter. According to the citation after that sentence, it seems that the "Feldman" in question is "Larry R. Feldman", the lawyer for Jordan Chandler, who is talked about in the paragraph. That needs to be clarified. I don't yet have 500 edits, so can someone who does please edit this? Thanks Bzzzing (talk) 19:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Well spotted. I'd actually favour taking this out; it's the sort of thing that a highly paid defence lawyer would say, and it would be more surprising if he hadn't said that. In my opinion it actually works against the article having that in. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Top level section on allegations of and charges for sexual abuse/crimes?

I note that there is no top level section discussing the various allegations and charges made against Jackson of sexual abuse/crimes during his lifetime and after. Instead, this information is scattered through the article. In contrast, to take two examples, both the articles on Harvey Weinstein and Jimmy Savile have top level sections on this subject. I am not pushing for this to happen, just raising the matter and would be interested in seeing pro/con arguments for a re-structuring of the article to group most of the relevant information in such a top level section. Oska (talk) 01:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it is unfortunate that this material is scattered around the article in a rather arbitrary manner. One editor (the one currently discussed on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Awardmaniac_again) even removed the heading of the section discussing the most recent allegations so that the material was virtually impossible to find, because it was buried at the end of a section discussing Jackson's will and a statue(!) with a very vague heading. One top-level section section on the abuse controversies would seem like a much better solution.

For example James Safechuck had been named as a victim by Chandler and various witnesses already back in 1993, so chronologically it's unfortunate to discuss his case in a top-level section mainly on Jackson's death, will etc. just because he himself came forward in 2019. --Tataral (talk) 01:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I think there's perhaps enough material about the allegations to warrant its own section - but at the same time, we can't leave them out of the chronological biography, because they're major events. If we can pull this off without too much duplicating it could be a good move. Popcornduff (talk) 02:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's enough material it's not as in depth or as consistently brought as much as for example R. Kelly to deserve it's own section. This has to be handled carefully because these are allegations that do go against court hearings, the FBI investigation, and past interviews with both accusers stating as adults that nothing happened.Mcelite (talk) 02:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

To add some context on why I opened this section/discussion: I am approaching this from a user's point of view, not as an editor. I have no personal interest in editing this particular article as I have little interest in Michael Jackson (his music or career). However I did read an article about the new documentary Leaving Neverland and afterward looked up Jackson's wiki article to get more context on the allegations made in the documentary and detail on any further abuse allegations over his lifetime. As a user I then found I had to trawl through the article to find this information - it wasn't gathered in one place. (And to be honest, that was too much work and I gave up). So for me, the article failed as an encylopedic reference in providing a subset of information on a subject in an accessible way. I don't think I would be alone in looking up the article for this particular use. Oska (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

That's all reasonable.

Another solution might be to have an article dedicated to summarising all the sexual abuse allegations against Jackson. I don't know if this is a good idea. I suggested this recently, but I think the notion filled Flyer22 Reborn with dread. Popcornduff (talk) 13:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we have an article summarizing all the abuse allegations (we already have more specific articles like 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson), the abuse allegations would need to be covered (summarized) in this article, and I agree that one top-level section would be the best solution, because it makes the material easier to find and also because it's not a good solution chronologically to scatter the material around based on when the allegations became (most) widely known (many of the allegations in Leaving Neverland had been around since 1993, and are closely linked to the other allegations from that period). --Tataral (talk) 15:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

If a section is decided I guess that would be more functional as an encyclopedic page, but it will have to be watched closely. We must maker sure this stays in neutral standpoint.Mcelite (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems that there is general support for moving the material on the abuse allegations to a separate top-level section, so I will go ahead and implement that solution. --Tataral (talk) 18:58, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Per what I stated in the #Extensive changes to the article section below, I reverted. Like I noted there, "The article, like other musician articles on Wikipedia, are set up with the album or song titles in the headings, after all. And this setup is another reason I reverted. For musician articles, we usually stay away from having controversy sections and instead keep the material aligned with the career aspects that coincided with the controversy. The Wikipedia:Criticism essay focuses on why having such a section is often not the best route." I'm not big on the idea of the article being set up this way. And it's clear that Mcelite isn't either. That stated, I understand the points that Oska and Tataral have made. We might need a WP:RfC on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:20, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The idea that we can't have a section on sexual abuse because he's a musician seems rather odd, and also characteristic of an in-universe perspective (within the field of music), as opposed to a broader societal perspective. The structure used in many musician biographies isn't necessarily something we need to follow slavishly, in part because most musicians aren't also widely known for sexual abuse allegations. To many people today Jackson is just as well known for the sexual abuse allegations; I estimated that 80% of the current readers come here because of that. A separate section on the abuse allegations is the exact same solution as the one used in Jimmy Savile's article. There comes a point when the material/controversy becomes so extensive that it needs a separate section in order to remain accessible to readers; this isn't some footnote in his life. --Tataral (talk) 02:18, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I did not state "can't." And I fail to see how it is a WP:In-universe perspective since it doesn't violate that guideline at all. All I stated is that this chronological and "coincides with" approach is the approach we use for most of our musician articles. The featured Mariah Carey article is another example. And I noted that WP:Criticism addresses issues with having a standalone controvesy section. And Mcelite also noted issues with having standalone controversy section. And as for "widely known for sexual abuse allegations," Jackson is also widely known for his music. I'm not a Jackson fan, though. And, like many others, I am likely to first think of him in terms of the child sexual abuse allegations. As for you "estimat[ing] that 80% of the current readers come here because of [the child sexual abuse allegations]," we obviously can't go by your estimations. And it hasn't always been the case that that's why most readers are coming to this article. I agree that most are coming to the article lately because of the child sexual abuse allegations, mainly due to the Leaving Neverland documentary, but we can see editors citing WP:Recentism in the "Inclusion of Leaving Neverland (with resulting controversy) in lead" section below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

3 point response to Flyer22 Reborn:

1. I think Michael Jackson is better understood as an entertainer rather than as just a musician. He built his fame and large fan base on the basis of his performances (often as I understand it of songs not written by him), his dancing and his video clips. Entertainers have (necessarily) large public profiles and any controversy in their lives attracts a lot of attention, rightly or wrongly.

2. In terms of "rightly or wrongly" it is true that some controversy should not attract undue weight in an encylopedic article. I remember there being some controversy about whether Jackson had plastic surgery and skin lightening and the extent of it/reasons for it. That's really mostly his own business and I don't think it's something that would deserve its own section or really much coverage in his wiki article. However, allegations and charges made against him of sexual abuse are another matter entirely. Yes, they can be controversial but they are also matters of genuine public interest. This is why we have visitors' galleries in courtrooms, court reporters, etc. This is also why we have mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse (in my own country of Australia anyway). So I think the reference to the page Wikipedia:Criticism misses the point in that this aspect of Jackson's life has received much interest (including official interest) and that interest is mostly valid. Yes, there are cases of people being smeared unjustly over allegations of abuse but that is why we try to maintain neutrality and reliance on good sources. (Mcelite's point)

3. Finally, I think the restructuring of the article benefits this article's two main audiences. One, the audience I described myself being part of, that of those who come to the article not to read about his entertainment career but specifically to read about the sexual abuse allegations/charges. But I think the restructuring also benefits those who mostly want to read about his entertainment career and aren't really interested in the abuse allegations (or discount them). They can just skip over that section. So in other words, the restructuring helps people better access the information they want in this article rather than having to read about abuse allegations when you're really mostly only interested in his entertainment career or vice versa, having to read about his career when you're really only interested in the alleged abuse. (Of course, there's also people interested in both). Oska (talk) 03:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Addendum: I think the restructuring will also help editors better maintain the article too and help them improve its quality. I think it would be hard for an editor to keep across the abuse topic when it was so scattered through the article. Oska (talk) 03:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I was going to suggest making the allegation a subsection in a personal life section, but just realized this one isn't structured that way. I believe the section should be pushed down after his artistry and legacy section. That way the allegations are not a major distraction in my opinion, but more importantly it certainly helps the article remain neutral. Once the protection is lifted this section will have to be watched like a hawk to maintain it's neutrality. Pushing the section down beneath the artistry section and legacy section may also help us especially because he was found not guilty with the allegations.Mcelite (talk) 03:29, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd agree with the abuse section appearing below the artistry section. It does seem a little odd for it to be the second section in the article as presently configured. Probably deserves to be before the death/memorial service section though as the allegations predate his death. Oska (talk) 03:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Oska, I meant "entertainer" in the same sense as "musician." WP:MUSICIAN does not distinguish, and our Musician Wikipedia article states, "A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument or is musically talented. Anyone who composes, conducts, or performs music is referred to as a musician. Whether the person is more so an an entertainer or not, we usually go with the aforementioned structure that I mentioned for these types of articles. As for Wikipedia:Criticism, in its "Approaches to presenting criticism" section, it does state "This approach is generally discouraged, but it is sometimes used for politics, religion and philosophy topics to avoid confusion that may result if negative viewpoints were interwoven with the description of the primary viewpoint." And its "Controversy" subsection notes that "For a specific controversy regarding the topic, when such topic takes a prominent place in the reliable sources on the topic." And in its "Criticism" subsection, it states, "A section dedicated to negative material is sometimes appropriate, if the sources treat the negative material as an organic whole, and if readers would be better served by seeing all the negative material in one location." So it gets your point.

I understand your point about including the section separately from the career stuff, and I'm not strongly opposed to doing that. I'm just not 100% sold on it. And there's also an argument for consistency -- so that editors don't look at this article or one like it and think that we usually include a controversy section in musician articles or that it's necessarily the best route.

I think we need to discuss this more, as is clear by the additional thoughts from you and Mcelite, and see if we can all agree on a setup. Or if we need to start an RfC on it. Moxy, any thoughts? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

On a side note: I prefer not to be pinged to this talk page since it's on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Flyer22 Reborn's argument on consistency, I have looked up articles on other entertainers who have had allegations or charges for sexual abuse made against them to see how their articles were structured. In the list below I have classified them as living or deceased and whether it went as far as allegations or charges or convictions. These are people who came to mind for me; I don't think I have cherry picked these examples but anyone is welcome to provide other examples.

• Jimmy Savile (deceased, allegations). Top level section : "Allegations of sexual abuse"

• R. Kelly (living, allegations). Top level section : "Sex scandals and allegations"

• Kevin Spacey (living, allegations). Top level section : "Sexual misconduct allegations"

• Harvey Weinstein (living, charges). Top level section : "Allegations of and charges for sexual crimes"

• Roman Polanski (living, charges). Top level section : "Legal history"

• Rolf Harris (living, convicted). Top level section : "Arrest and trial"

• Bill Cosby (living, convicted). Top level section : "Sexual assault conviction"

I'm seeing a clear consistent pattern of grouping this subject matter in a top level section. So this article lacking a top level section appears to be the inconsistent one. Again, if people can think of other examples I would welcome them being referenced. Oska (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Most of those articles aren't musician articles. I spoke of consistency of musician articles, particularly articles about singers. We treat our actor articles differently, but we are cautious of creating a controversy section even for those. This article has had the child sexual abuse content the way it is for yeas with no problem. The only reason there is even a suggestion to create a section grouping all of the child sexual abuse material together now is because of the Leaving Neverland material. But we can see that editors have wondered just how much space it should get in this article. And Popcornduff stated, "I think there's perhaps enough material about the allegations to warrant its own section - but at the same time, we can't leave them out of the chronological biography, because they're major events. If we can pull this off without too much duplicating it could be a good move." Right after that, Mcelite stated, "I don't think there's enough material it's not as in depth or as consistently brought as much as for example R. Kelly to deserve it's own section. This has to be handled carefully because these are allegations that do go against court hearings, the FBI investigation, and past interviews with both accusers stating as adults that nothing happened."

I definitely now think we need an RfC on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

@ Flyer22 Reborn. Sorry, but frankly I find this whole 'musician' angle a canard. Firstly, I think entertainer is a better description of Jackson (short argument why given above) and secondly, even if you go with the musician categorisation I fail to see why musicians should be treated differently. Oska (talk) 08:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I answered your musician vs. entertainer argument above, with the inclusion of sources from the Musician article. As for why these articles are formatted differently, that's a discussion for the broader community. But at this point in time they are. It is the case that these articles are usually set up with the album or song titles in the headings, the album or song material in those sections and any controversies that coincided with those moments in those sections. With actor articles, the setup might be to have the television show or film in the heading. Either way, even for actor articles, the controversy material often goes in one of those sections instead of having its own section. I recognize that you are stating that cases like Jackson's case are different. But notice that none of the articles you pointed to are WP:Good or WP:Featured articles. And that conviction cases are different. There's also the fact that this article already identifies the child sexual abuse content with headings. We haven't gotten any complaints about that material being hard to locate. You've made a complaint, but it's about the 'Leaving Neverland content being difficult to locate, although I think some readers will naturally know to check the "Aftermath" section for that material. And adding a subsection heading for the material would make it easy to find. Above, you stated that you are "not pushing for this to happen, just raising the matter and would be interested in seeing pro/con arguments for a re-structuring of the article to group most of the relevant information in such a top level section." Well, now you are pushing for it. And I've suggested an RfC. If no one else is willing to start it, I will. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of opinion of whether or not Michael is considered a musician or an entertainer the amount of popularity of the sex abuse allegations makes it notable forcing us to have to mention it. Overall, I believe the sex allegations section should be moved beneath the aforementioned sections that way we are helping keep the article as a whole neutral, and decreasing the distraction of the allegations so readers capture more of why he is notable. Like I said earlier after protection is lifted we might see quite a circus for the next month until things calm down on both ends. I say can we move to a vote to at least move the section itself and then focus on the content as a whole to maintain it's neutrality.Mcelite (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

____

References

Topic ban for Awardmaniac

Awardmaniac is now under a topic ban for articles related to Michael Jackson, broadly construed. This ban was placed after Special:Diff/886454322 and so that edit is not considered to violate the topic ban. I make no statement as to the appropriateness of the contents of the edit, only that the edit itself does not violate the topic ban. Note that the ban extends to this discussion page, too, so please be extra careful about personal attacks here, against an editor who would not be able to respond. --Yamla (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

After being informed of his topic ban, Awardmaniac immediately continued making Michael Jackson-related (article and talk page) edits, mainly related to the sexual abuse allegations (an issue that hardcore Jackson fans have particular difficulty with when it comes to neutral and encyclopedic editing): [5], [6], [7]. --Tataral (talk) 18:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh I just say the topic ban now? Awardmaniac (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I have followed up. Awardmaniac will not edit the article any further and will not edit this talk page any further. Any further violations of their topic ban or 1RR restriction will result in immediate sanction. --Yamla (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of Leaving Neverland (with resulting controversy) in lead

Readership of this article has increased fivefold during the last few days. Around 80% of all readers of this article currently come here because of Leaving Neverland. The coverage of Leaving Neverland around the world has been enormous; we have to go back a decade, to Jackson's death, to find a comparable level of coverage of Jackson in any capacity. It has also resulted in a significant backlash against Jackson and there are reports from many countries of his music being removed from radio stations. Countless commentators in RS have said this changes Jackson's legacy fundamentally. In other words, Leaving Neverland is a pivotal event in the history of Michael Jackson and his legacy, comparable to the revelations about Jimmy Savile after his death that also altered his legacy (despite the lack of a conviction).

In the world of popular culture, Leaving Neverland is without doubt the most discussed story not only this year, but at least since Harvey Weinstein. In fact it's easily one of the most discussed stories this year in any field.

The lead currently includes fairly trivial material about Jackson's earnings in 2016 and the conviction and brief incarceration of a doctor for involuntary manslaughter. Yet, Leaving Neverland is not mentioned in the lead.

I propose that Leaving Neverland (which I understand as the film and the resulting backlash against Jackson) is mentioned in the lead, and that we remove his 2016 earnings. --Tataral (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

While I'm fine with mentioning Leaving Neverland in the lead along with its impact, I oppose removing earnings because that was a record amount tracked. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:12, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, that's fine with me, I don't consider the inclusion of the 2016 earnings as a very big issue in itself, as long as Leaving Neverland is also included.

In terms of wording, how about "The 2019 documentary Leaving Neverland about Jackson's alleged sexual abuse resulted in a backlash against Jackson, and many radio stations removed his music." --Tataral (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose in lede. Perhaps in lede of Cultural impact of Michael Jackson. SITH (talk) 22:17, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

There is no article called Cultural impact of Michael Jackson. That is a redirect to this article. The article appears to have been a pet project of the just topic-banned User:Awardmaniac. --Tataral (talk) 22:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support including this significant information in the lead; after all, it's a summary of the article and the article mentions it. --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the fourth paragraph, how would the Leaving Neverland material fit in? I don't see that it should come before that fourth paragraph or be its own paragraph. Per WP:Lead, we typically don't exceed four paragraphs. Perhaps propose here on the talk page how the text will fit with the fourth paragraph? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:35, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RECENTISM, should not be included in the lead until after the long-term notability of the documentary has been evaluated. Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree withIlovetopaint especially because of WP:RECENTISM.Mcelite (talk) 03:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Question: Given that the recent documentary relates to events from decades ago, has attracted enormous attention, and has already led to some fairly major reevaluation of Jackson's reputation, is RECENTISM really much of an argument? --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:31, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support this is not recentism, this relates to events occurring decades ago and the documentary is an important development receiving significant and long-lasting coverage in numerous reliable sources.Polyamorph (talk) 10:08, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. This is clearly a major issue, a major change in how Jackson is seen, and discussion in the lede would be appropriate and helpful. deisenbe (talk) 10:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support There is precedent for the inclusion of such allegations in top level sections, regardless of whether you believe documentary or not these are serious allegations and ones that have dogged his entire career. The documentary has aired, the allegations are out there and its now a part of history. So from a historical standpoint it should be in the lead. EL Foz87 (talk) 14:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:RECENTISM. Jackson's career spanned 30+ years. The only reason why we're even talking about this is because of a recent event. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
  • The source (the documentary) is recent, but the Ereignisse took place over a long period. So I'm not sure how recentism comes into it. --MarchOrDie (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Recentism doesn't apply so much to the events, but the recent press coverage. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if it wasn't for the film. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:21, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The whole point of WP:RECENT is that "it is appropriate to be aware of balance and historical perspective," not that Wikipedia shouldn't cover developments simply because they are "recent," regardless of their merits (for example: hours after Trump's election as President, major changes would be appropriate). The key question is whether the 2019 backlash against Jackson is significant in the overall assessment of Jackson and his legacy. We have countless sources (just one random example: "Michael Jackson's legacy was changed by 'Leaving Neverland.' It's a long overdue reckoning for every fan.") that directly address that question and consider this year's developments to be of pivotal importance in the assessment of Jackson. In addition, this year's developments relating to Jackson have received more coverage in RS than any other issue relating to Jackson since his death a decade ago, and the lead already includes almost trivial details e.g. on the exact nature of the punishment of his doctor. It's also relevant that the sexual abuse issue has received extensive coverage over several decades and clearly had a significant impact on his life in the 1990s and 2000s, so the material isn't really that recent. --Tataral (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support. WP:Recent doesn't suggest we ignore recent events, but that we deal with them appropriately. This is a significant event, and we have an article on it: Leaving Neverland. As it stands , this article is not dealing with Leaving Neverland appropriately, and it's starting to feel like we are whitewashing the article. Wikipedia is not censored, and we seek to provide a neutral balance in our all our articles, which means at times dealing with the negative, especially if it appears sensationalised in the media. What people are looking for is the non-sensational, neutral and factual account. So, we give a brief summary of the main points in the main body of this article, linking people to the fuller details in Leaving Neverland, and - as per WP:Lead - we briefly mention it in the lead, at the same time linking there also to Leaving Neverland. SilkTork (talk) 23:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Extensive changes to the article

Ilovetopaint, Tataral and Awardmaniac, at the end of the day, this is still a WP:Featured article. I'm not stating that changes should not be made to it, but per WP:CAREFUL and WP:STEWARDSHIP, extensive changes, especially of a controversial nature, should be discussed first. Can we try to work toward WP:Consensus when it comes to article setup and what to include or not to include? I reverted the extensive changes for a number of reasons. First, I saw editors removing content with WP:IDON'TLIKEIT rationales or similar. For example, here, Awardmaniac removed material stating that it "does not belong here but in the article itself. along with the interview." And here we see Tataral reverting Awardmaniac for POV reasons. Here, we have Ilovetopaint trimming the lead while pointing to MOS:INTRO, but, arguably, a bit of the material should remain. The article, like other musician articles on Wikipedia, are set up with the album or song titles in the headings, after all. And this setup is another reason I reverted. For musician articles, we usually stay away from having controversy sections and instead keep the material aligned with the career aspects that coincided with the controversy. The Wikipedia:Criticism essay focuses on why having such a section is often not the best route. Yeah, it's an essay, but it has solid points. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Per above, I see that Awardmaniac is topic-banned. That makes things easier. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:14, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• "A bit of that material should remain ..." What material exactly? The only information I removed from the lead was two specific Grammy awards and the singles mentioned (10). It's enough to simply mention the albums they originate from. Is it really necessary to include half of the Bad track listing in the lead? Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, why remove the Grammy awards? As for the songs, the lead is focused on the more notable ones. Some of the songs more notable than the others (as made clear lower in the article). Regarding what you cut, we should discuss which songs make the most sense to mention in the lead, given the article's content. As for this, I agree that the big quote doesn't improve the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:26, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

(re: Grammy) It's unclear why those particular awards matter. The lead already states that he has more awards than any other pop entertainer in history, so mentioning specifics with titles like "Legend" seem like a bit of a resumé jerkoff. (re: singles) The most notable came from Thriller and Bad, but the thing that made Jackson special was the fact that those albums were like hits collections, so listing every hit that came off them is kinda redundant. Can you imagine if The Beatles lead went through all the best-known tracks from Sgt. Pepper's, Abbey Road, Revolver ...? Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we list every one, but mentioning a few with respect to the article's content seems like something we should do. Are you okay with mentioning a few? If so, which ones do you think we should mention? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Probably just the "Black and White" video and maybe the Thriller songs. Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Do not make blanket reverts to a several days old version of an article after several editors have worked on the article for days, reflecting current consensus here. That is both disruptive and disrespectful to other Wikipedia editors, and quite frankly unacceptable behaviour. The edits you are referring to have been discussed on this talk page and reflect the current consensus, e.g. on moving sexual abuse allegations to a single section. Your edits appear to be an attempt to remove almost entirely any mention of Leaving Neverland. If you have an issue with any particular edits, take part in the debate here on the talk page instead (e.g. in the debate on the structure of the abuse section above). --Tataral (talk) 01:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Tataral, it's better to not talk to me like I am some vandal or a newbie. It's also best that you don't demand that I don't revert for more discussion. You and I also define "several days old" differently. But, anyway, WP:Consensus-wise, how about you not make extensive changes to a featured article without waiting at least two or three days for all involved editors to weigh in? An editor proposed your changes on March 6th (Wikipedia time). I showed up to contest the changes hours later on March 6th. It's a standard WP:Bold, revert, discuss matter, despite the intermediate edits that got caught up in my revert. As made clear above, I was also focused on lead changes, not just changes to article structure. I pointed to guidelines and the way that articles like this are formatted for my reasons for reverting to the WP:Status quo version. WP:Consensus is policy. Notice that it states, "Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." Emphasis on the bolded "all." It does not state "some." You were quick to implement the proposed article format even though others, like myself and Moxy, hadn't yet weighed in. You speak of being disruptive and disrespectful, and yet Popcornduff pinged me above with regard to the discussion about rearranging the article. Popcornduff was more respectful than you were on this matter. Just because I hadn't yet weighed in...it doesn't mean that my view should be discounted or ignored. Some of us are not on this site 24/7. As for your claim that "[my] edits appear to be an attempt to remove almost entirely any mention of Leaving Neverland," do not mistake me for Awardmaniac or some Jackson apologist. I clearly am not. There is nothing disruptive and disrespectful about reverting to the status quo version of an article for more discussion, especially in the case of a featured article. Discussion on restructuring the article is still being had above. There is no deadline; there is no valid reason to rush a different structure. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:16, 7 March 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Making a blanket revert to a several days old version of an article after several editors have worked in a consensus-oriented manner for several days just because you erroneously believe yourself to have a personal veto over any edit to the article is not acceptable editing, and not in the spirit of Wikipedia:Consensus. Such blanket reverts are also generally disruptive. If you had just disagreed with e.g. the restructuring of the abuse material and called for more discussion on that, that would have been fine and unproblematic, but you instead chose to indiscriminately discard several days' work by several editors while insisting that even other, unrelated and/or small edits made during the past week need your personal permission. That is not what consensus means, at least not on this project.

I also had no reason to ping you, in a discussion started by another editor, because I had never heard of you and I didn't know that you considered yourself to WP:OWN the article. Based on the discussion at the time, I had no reason to expect any significant opposition to the restructuring that was proposed by another editor.

Whether you consider yourself to be fundamentally different from Awardmaniac or not, the fact remains that you are making the exact same edits as Awardmaniac, hours after he was topic-banned, reducing coverage of Leaving Neverland and its impact to a single almost meaningless sentence buried at the end of a section otherwise devoted to Jackson's will and a statue in his honour (conspicuously omitting the fact that the statue was removed in response to Leaving Neverland[8]), with a section title that makes the material impossible to find, and (quite inappropriately given the context) an illustration of "Fan Tributes at Jackson's tomb" --Tataral (talk) 06:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Nowhere did I state or imply that "unrelated and/or small edits made during the past week need [my] personal permission." Nowhere have I insisted that any edit needs my personal permission. I've insisted that substantive changes were hastily made without consideration for opinons from other editors (including me) who would have likely objected to the changes. You may not like it, but there are certain rules to follow with regard to featured articles. That you are claiming WP:OWN after I pointed to WP:CAREFUL and WP:STEWARDSHIP is ridiculous. WP:CAREFUL states, "Also, changes to articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories or active sanctions, or to Featured Articles and Good Articles, should be done with extra care. In many cases, the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. A careless edit to such an article might stir up a latent conflict, and other users who are involved in the page may become defensive. If you would like to make a significant edit—not just a simple copyedit—to an article on a controversial subject, it is a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety and skim the comments on the talk page. On controversial articles, the safest course is to be cautious and find consensus before making changes, but there are situations when bold edits can safely be made to contentious articles. Always use your very best editorial judgment in these cases and be sure to read the talk page." WP:STEWARDSHIP, a section of WP:OWN states, "Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that 'anyone can edit, but not all edits bring improvement. In many cases, a core group of editors will have worked to build the article up to its present state, and will revert edits that they find detrimental in order, they believe, to preserve the quality of the encyclopedia. Such reversion does not indicate an 'ownership' problem, if it is supported by an edit summary referring to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, previous reviews and discussions, or specific grammar or prose problems introduced by the edit. Where disagreement persists after such a reversion, the editor proposing the change should first take the matter to the talk page, without personal comments or accusations of ownership. In this way, the specifics of any change can be discussed with the editors who are familiar with the article, who are likewise expected to discuss the content civilly. This is in keeping with the BRD cycle, which stands for bold, revert, discuss. Though not an official policy or guideline, it is a dependable method for dispute resolution."

My revert was not a violation of any policy or guideline. My years of watching and occasionally editing this article show that this is not a matter of me owning the article. When an editor suggested a review above, I listened and engaged that editor. That editor took the time to listen and reply. That editor didn't hastily make changes. And I didn't revert that editor's changes. You speak of WP:Consensus, but your quick implementation of the structure didn't consider the WP:CAREFUL guideline or the WP:STEWARDSHIP policy. You alone decided that there was consensus and then went off and stuck the structure in, after a little discussion and little bit of time had passed. You speak of WP:Consensus, and yet here I am objecting. If you had waited even a reasonable amount of time, this dispute between us wouldn't exist. This is the exact thing that WP:CAREFUL and WP:STEWARDSHIP speaks of. We can see that Moxy is a long-time contributor to this article. Your rush to add the new structure completely disregard any comment Moxy might have made on the matter. It certainly disregarded mine. Like me, Moxy is not on this site 24-7 either. And WP:Silent consensus is not always a valid consensus to go with. I have no issue with more on Leaving Neverland being added to the article, or if you want to add a subheading for the material in that section. What I objected to was the article structure, and I've noted why. As for not knowing who I was and therefore not pinging me, it was enough that Popcornduff mentioned/pinged me. Why else would I be mentioned with regard to the article's content if I was not involved? Why assume that the editors who weighed in are the only editors who watch and/or edit article? In fact, most of the editors currently in that discussion are editors who don't regularly edit the article. And many editors, including me, check an article's edit history to get a sense of how many active editors of an article there are. I definitely do this when wanting to gauge consensus. If I see an active editor who has not weighed in, I am likely to ping that editor.

You comparing me to Awardmaniac is ludicrous, per the very discussion on my talk page I pointed to and the fact that reverting to the 5:46, 4 March 2019‎ version of the article is not at all the exact same edits as Awardmaniac. The article was like that before you showed up to it. And the setup (minus the Leaving Neverland content) has been the way it is for years with no issue. The only reason editors are now discussing having the child sexual abuse content be its own section is due to the aforementioned documentary. Popcornduff and other editors can attest to the fact that I don't edit like Awardmaniac. Talk:Michael Jackson/Archive 32#Cultural impact of Michael Jackson shows that I don't edit like Awardmaniac. But, hey, if you think I'm just like Awardmaniac, then feel free to report me at WP:ANI or to Yamla and see what happens. To save you the trip, though, I'll go ahead and note that I won't be getting topic-banned from this article. It would be best if you stop treating me like the enemy and instead continue the format discussion. I'm still waiting for Moxy to weigh in. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

This is not a question of whether the new chapter structure should be implemented. It was implemented based on discussion on this talk page with no significant opposition, and I've already pointed out that it would have been ok for you to revert that particular edit if you had explained yourself on this page page and said this particular change needed more discussion. This, however, is not what you did. You made a blanket, indiscriminate revert to a several days old version of the article. The main effect of your edit was downplaying coverage of the sexual abuse issue and almost erasing coverage of Leaving Neverland (including making the material virtually impossible to find in the article) and updates made during the past week that reflected significant developments relating to Jackson. Those edits weren't "extensive edits" or anything of the kind, but normal, mostly small edits that added a couple of sentences to the article. That you show up late is frankly not anyone else's problem. This is not an article just on some musician of interest only to a select audience of fans, but on an individual who is the focus of intense media attention and ongoing developments right now. Readership of the article has increased fivefold as a result of that. In such articles changes are likely to happen faster. It's unacceptable for the article not to cover Leaving Neverland and its impact, the reason why 80% of the current readers look up the article, in an appropriate manner. As another editor argued above, "this article is not dealing with Leaving Neverland appropriately, and it's starting to feel like we are whitewashing the article." The version of the section that covers Leaving Neverland that you are insisting on is both inappropriate and even offensive in its treatment of the issue for the reasons I mentioned above. That is my main objection (not the chapter structure), in addition to the fact that indiscriminate blanket reverts to days-old versions are very bad form in general.

You keep insisting that the article is a "featured article;" that status was awarded before the recent developments and by editors mostly concerned with his music (many of them avowed fans), and the article is arguably now out of date based on how RS cover Jackson; if Jimmy Savile had been a featured article before his death, that wouldn't have been a reason not to cover the Jimmy Savile sexual abuse scandal in an appropriate manner. The recents edits aimed at updating and improving the article to reflect recent developments and coverage of Jackson in RS were clearly the first step as listed in Wikipedia:Featured article review, but given the opposition by yourself to any changes to the article the article might be a candidate for a more formal review. The article isn't very well written or structured either (as discussed by several editors), so it's clearly in need of improvement. --Tataral (talk) 23:25, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok i am here...will review whats going on...little disappointed to see click bait used as of late...but will see what we can cleanup.--Moxy (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Flyer for some lead restoration. It simply is incomplete to not mention any singles at all, and I especially object to removing the 5 US #1's from Bad as that was the first album to have that many songs top the country's chart. While I'm not sure if I'd treat sexual abuse allegations the same as a general controversy/criticism section, though, being a musician isn't by itself a good reason to avoid lumping them all into one section. A better basis is whether it would create undue negative weight. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Request for comments on restructuring the article

Should the article be restructured to group information about allegations of and charges for sexual abuse under one top level section? It is currently scattered through the article. Oska (talk) 09:11, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Please be aware of the existing discussion above under heading "Top level section on allegations of and charges for sexual abuse/crimes?" Oska (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support new top level section for these allegations, consistent with other biographies of famous people who have had allegations made (some proven some not yet) against them.Polyamorph (talk) 10:13, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support Seems reasonable to detail all the allegations in one place, as it's one of the main things he is known for. The challenge will be how to avoid making the article too long and repetitive. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• No that would be the opposite of what we should do and may cause the article to loos its FA status if we don't follow WP:STRUCTURE. (English Wikipedia policy.).."Folding debates into the narrative" is what we are looking for.--Moxy (talk) 12:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support Even if brief there has to be a section on them. There have also been allegations which are lesser kown. See Category:Michael Jackson sexual abuse allegations. deisenbe (talk)
• Comment we have to ask ourselves whether this would be undue negative weight. I'm not sure what to say there at the moment. Maybe the answer will come to me later with some further thought. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:13, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support If someone's willing to do, go for it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. The material is currently arbitrarily scattered around, partially under headings that don't mention the issue at all, and thus nearly inaccessible to most readers, who almost never read the article from start to finish. For example, Leaving Neverland and its impact are mentioned under the heading "Aftermath" which otherwise covers Jackson's will and a statue (without mentioning that it was removed in response to Leaving Neverland), complete with a particularly offensive (given the context) illustration of "Fan Tributes at Jackson's tomb on the first anniversary of his death". The abuse allegations are also linked to each other both chronologically and otherwise (for example Safechuck was identified as a victim by several witnesses already back in 1993), so chronologically it would be much better to cover them in the same top-level section than to cover some of the allegations in a section on his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley and some of them in a section on "Fan Tributes"(!) after his death. The abuse controversy has become so extensive that it needs its own section in order to remain accessible to readers; it's simply too unwieldy to be scattered around in other sections on "Fan Tributes"(!). 80% of the current readers come here specifically looking for material on the sexual abuse controversy, and most of them probably leave mostly empty-handed due to the article's confusing treatment of this issue where the material is notoriously hard to find. One well-structured section is also the same solution as the one found in Jimmy Savile, Harvey Weinstein and all other comparable articles where the subject is also widely known for sexual abuse allegations. In general this article is very badly structured and in dire need of improvement, and partially comes across as fancruft for some of the reasons mentioned above. --Tataral (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Best we follow WP:STRUCTURE . "material is currently scattered around" meaning they are in the historical order as is preferred. Section making for one topic is the exact opposite of what we should be doing WP:STRUCTURE. Hopefully the closer will see policy bases arguments over "look what the other article has" . To pass FA review years ago we had to incorporate the sex scandal. -- Moxy (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we need to follow WP:STRUCTURE and thus do something with the current structure. This article can't be frozen the way it was "years ago" without taking into account recent developments. In fact it would be beneficial for the quality of this article to lose its FA status and go through the process again. Much has changed since last time, and more editors are also likely to take an interest in the article. Do you believe that the article's current treatment of Leaving Neverland and its impact (complete with its illustration of "Fan Tributes" and a heading that makes the material impossible to find) is appropriate? --Tataral (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes the article should be updated in the time line section that is already there.. Adding a section for it is simply undue...especially when the sources are made up of media crap. As per WP:STRUCTURE "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure"....one of our oldest policies. So far we have "I like it" and " look at the other article" votes vs the oldtimer pointing to a policy as to why don't do this....and how our FA articles are structured.--Moxy (talk) 19:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We have thousands of very high-quality reliable sources discussing the new documentary on Jackson and its implications, and there is near-universal agreement among reliable sources that this is an important issue with profound implications for the assessment of Jackson, but you regard it as simply "media crap." I hope the closer will base her or his decision on Wikipedia policy such as WP:RS rather than fandom-based comments about RS being "media crap." The comment also hightlights why this article needs improvement and probably should lose its FA status until it is improved. Also, for the record, you haven't pointed to any "policy as to why don't do this" (only your dubious personal interpretation of a policy), and you being an "oldtimer" is not a valid argument (I've been a Wikipedian for a decade too, but that is not something I believe is a strong argument in a content discussion). --Tataral (talk) 20:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok perhaps I am not being clear ...or the RfC is not clear. What I see being asked it to pull out all the controversy stuff from the article and make a new section with it and title that section in a non neutral manner....or make a section based on click bait media for a new controversy. So what our policy say is that stuff of this nature should not be cherry picked out of the article and a section made form it. It should be in the normal pros of the article. I have no problem using the media crap till we have real source that cover this in depth. I do have a problem making a new controversy section based on click bait media .....lets just add the stuff to the article. --Moxy (talk) 20:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It's not a question of pulling "all the controversy stuff", only the material specifically about sexual abuse, clearly a separate topic, in order to present it in a coherent and accessible manner, as also discussed above. I do not understand the comment about "click bait media"; that is quite frankly a very offensive comment if you are referring to the discussion centered on Leaving Neverland. --Tataral (talk) 20:30, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Highlighting material specifically about sexual abuse 'allegations is a clear violation of WP:WEIGHT "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and imagery."----Moxy (talk) 20:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's your proposal to bury it that is a clear violation of WP:WEIGHT. And just for the record: This is the kind of sources that you describe as "click bait media"; I think anyone can see that your description of those sources is without any merit whatsoever. Quite a number of very high-quality RS now also focus on the reaction online by Jackson superfans (including their "shouting down news outlets") as a phenomenon that is itself worthy of coverage in this saga, and that we in time will probably add to this article. --Tataral (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

What I am saying is we should not have a section that "highlights allegations" based on daily coverage of a an ongoing topic. Just add it to the timeline. Pls try and address the policies being shown...forget the sources (not in the policies being discussed)....we all agree they are good enough for inclusion...I just think is a bad idea to bases a section on daily coverage media......I am sure all understand the difference between journalism and reporting. WP:BALASP "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news."--Moxy (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The sexual abuse issue is not a "minor aspect" of Jackson, as demonstrated by the fact that is has received more coverage in RS than any other aspect of Michael Jackson during the past decade. Sexual abuse is not a "minor aspect" of Jimmy Savile either. --Tataral (talk) 20:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

OK this is not productive....I quote policy and you give a POV. What policy do you belive merits inclusion of a sex allegation section? --Moxy (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

You haven't quoted a policy in a way that advances your argument. It appears that there is near-unanimous support here for the proposed chapter restructuring. We'll leave it at that. --Tataral (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support. The abuse allegations are not being given due weight and are not coherently presented. Fences&Windows 20:21, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. I was surprised by the fact that, until two days ago, there was no mention in the lede as regards recent events in relation to the sexual abuse allegations. Yes, the past trials were mentioned, but now we have a new huge wave of negative news about Jackson, which were either underanalyzed or scattered around. Wether the editors of the article like it or not, Michael Jackson has at the time become more infamous due to the sexual abuse allegations than famous because of his music. Music stations around the world stop playing his songs, and almost all the (contunuous) media reports about him have to do with the sexual scandal. Therefore, it is inconceivable for me to argue that the current status of the article is satisfactory. Due weight should be given to the sexual abuse allegations with (a) an extensive and coherent paragraph in the lede, and (b) a seperate section focused on the matter, which, ideally, should be the synopsis of a separate coheherent and comprehensive thematic article.Yannismarou (talk) 08:59, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

A proposal for implementation of this proposal

Those interested in what this proposal might look like in practice might want to have a look at the previous implementation based on the previous discussion of this issue here: [9] Note that the section is work in progress at that point. Based on other discussion on this talk page, it is also proposed to move the section "Artistry" so that the chapter structure becomes:

1. Life and career
   1. With around 10 second-level sections
2. Artistry
   1. With 5 second-level sections
3. Allegations of child sexual abuse
   1. First allegations
   2. Second allegations and 2005 trial
   3. Renewed allegations and Leaving Neverland
4. Death, memorial service, and aftermath
5. Etc.

--Tataral (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Quote boxes

I see a bit of back-and-forth on the presence of the two quote boxes. We have one that starts: "Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars? Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. ..." Then we have the later one that's been removed and restored, that starts: ""The attention and fortune showered on an individual celebrity is often times immensely disproportionate to his or her achievements.... " Now, without declaring a position for or against either one, why are they there? Jackson said a lot of things during his life. Why those particular quotes? And "its part of big speech, one of the famous quote he addressed on humanity" probably won't be sufficient to keep it. --MarchOrDie (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Drop quotes..as per MOS:Quote.--Moxy (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Drop them both? I'd be fine with that. Anybody else? --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Get rid of them both. They're just needless filler. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I've removed them. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I support the first quote but not the second. Ilovetopaint (talk) 04:59, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Why? --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the first quote is OK too. The wild media reports about Jackson's behaviour (before all the sexual abuse allegations even) are a notable part of the subject and his response to it is relevant. Popcornduff (talk) 07:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

It isn't about whether it is "OK". It's about whether we need it. Did other sources highlight this quote as being a significant one? Or is it just some Wikipedia editor's choice? --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

We make editorial decisions about what to put in articles. Do we need it? It's not as essential as other elements - for example, we need to cover Michael Jackson's death - but I feel the article is improved for it and it illuminates the subject. Popcornduff (talk) 07:41, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Sexual abuse should be mentioned briefly in the first paragraph of the lead section

The first paragraph of the lead section is an overall summary of the entire article. Until a day ago the paragraph looked like this:

Michael Joseph Jackson (August 29, 1958 – June 25, 2009) was an American singer, songwriter and dancer. Dubbed the "King of Pop", he is regarded as one of the most significant cultural icons of the 20th century and one of the greatest entertainers of all time. Jackson's contributions to music, dance, and fashion, along with his publicized personal life—including allegations of child sexual abuse—made him a global figure in popular culture for over four decades.

Now sexual abuse has been removed. Based on the coverage of Jackson in reliable sources, the sexual abuse allegations are clearly important enough to be mentioned in that sentence, together with his contributions to fashion and so on. The sexual abuse allegations are also mentioned in a similar manner in the lead section of Jimmy Savile. --Tataral (talk) 23:12, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

That isn't ok. This needs to be restored. It is one of the main things he is known for. --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)