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October 2

translate map of Vindobona

German-language version

Hi friends, thanks to a question on the Humanities Desk, I've been reading Vindobona and noticed that the map is labelled in German. Could anyone here provide translations so we can request an English-language version of the map? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:13, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, to get you started, the Danau River is the Danube. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Legend at bottom: Kaserne (Barracks) Stabsgebäude (Staff building) Kommandeursgebäude (Commandant's building) Tribunenhäuser (Tribunes' quarters) Lagerbad (Baths) Vorratsspeicher (Storehouse) Lazarett (Hospital) Gräberfelder (Cemeteries) wichtige Fundpunkte (Major discovery locations) aktuelle Straßenführung (Current street routing) aktuelle Bauwerke (Current buildings) Höhe ab Donauspiegel (10. jh) (Elevation above Danube in 10th century)

Jmar67 (talk) 06:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Other text: ~ 250 n. Chr. (ca. 250 A.D.) Universität (University) Rathaus (City Hall) Parlament (Parliament) Jmar67 (talk) 06:35, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

City hall = rat house, how appropriate. :-) SinisterLefty (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you very much @Jmar67! This is terrific. Really appreciate your work. I think the smaller rivers and the streets can retain their German names, but am wondering about the other red square (Stephansdom - would it be something like Stephan's Cathedral?) and the purple dots (Freyung/Herrengasse, Fleischmarkt, Michaelerplatz, Neuer Markt) and gray blobs (Stallburggasse, Albertina, Karntnerstrasse/Oper) - would any of these be more meaningful translated, or are they names of modern places in Vienna? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:44, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Stephansdom is St. Stephen's Cathedral. As for the other words, I think they can be left untranslated. In fact, I don't think it would sound suitable to transform Herrengasse into 'Sirs alley' or 'Herren alley', or Fleischmarkt into 'meat mart' (the more so as the translation would lead to think that there's an actual mart, while in fact it's only the name of the street, based on the fact that there was said mart). Albertina is the name of a museum. Galtzaile (talk) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Good, thank you also! Request has been made at [1] 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

October 3

Easiest European language to learn

Between Spanish, French and German, which language is easiest to learn for English speaking person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stuart34534 (talk • contribs) 01:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC) Easy according to pronunciation and grammar also.

There's probably the most words in common with French, due to the Hundred Year's War and Norman Conquest, relatively recent (is linguistic terms) events where each was on the other's soil for many years. Of course, having slightly different meanings in the two languages can cause some problems: "Would that gross man mind if I molested him for a few minutes ?" (Would the large man mind if I bothered him ?). :-) SinisterLefty (talk) 01:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Spanish syntax is relatively easy and straightforward, compared with French, Portugese, and even Italian. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

According to the FSI, Spanish and French are Category I languages (easiest for native English speakers) and German is Category II. Their timeline indicates 24 weeks of study for Spanish to achieve "professional working proficiency", 30 weeks for French and 36 weeks for German.[2]--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 05:57, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Good idea for a way to quantify answers! But the question was about the easiest language other than those three. Well, on that page 8 languages are all listed as "24 weeks", which is the fastest to learn. Besides Spanish, the other 7 are: Danish, Dutch, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Romanian, Swedish. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I think you misread the Q. Had it said "Besides..." it would have meant that, but it said "Between...". SinisterLefty (talk) 06:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

So it did! Sorry about that. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Northcestrain Grammar School:

This is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Cestrian_Grammar_School

The school motto reads: as above link: Motto: "Delapsus Resurgam" (When I fall I shall die)

This is wrong! other than a bunch of kids walking around with an emblem associated with death, which by all accounts is wrong.

"Delapsus resurgam" does not, I repeat does not translate to this!

It wasn't this originally on Wikipedia, and now it's changed...

Please correct it, it's offensive to the Great Students that have, are and will continue to become Great Human Beings.

This is what it translates to:

"Delapsus Resurgam" (When I fall, I shall rise again)

Northcestrain formed just after the end of the second world war. Its Latin emblem is meant to inspire students to keep on trying. We all fall in life, but we keep on regardless because we are fearless and we never stop trying. We never give up.

Please change this. as soon as possible.

Regards,

Nick Carroll. (Former Student of Northcestrain Grammer School)

Thanks. This was a piece of recent vandalism that unfortunately slipped through. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

That would be a good motto for Phoenix, Arizona. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:17, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

St Paul's Cathedral in London has above its south door, an image of a phoenix and the motto "Resurgam", having been rebuilt after the Great Fire of London as every schoolboy knows. Alansplodge (talk) 21:44, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

October 4

Correct alphabetization of Spanish names

Oftentimes, Spanish people have two "last names". For example: Alejandro González Iñárritu. When you alphabetize his name, does it go under "G" for González? Or does it go under "I" for Iñárritu? And where are the "rules" for this? Is there a "standard" / accepted practice? Or is it merely discretionary, such that either way is acceptable? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

The article you need to read is Spanish naming customs. --Xuxl (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

For Wikipedia, rule is in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Spain_&_Spanish-related_articles#3_Naming_conventions. Per that, the maternal surname is not used in alphabetization so González would go under G. Spanish_naming_customs#Indexing suggests that this convention is followed for English-language publications generally. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:57, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

So, for alphabetical purposes, he goes under "G" and not "I" ... correct? Now, if he is referred to in the article, should he be referred to as González ... or as Iñárritu?

Example A: Alejandro González Iñárritu is an Academy Award winner. González was born in 1963. or

Example B: Alejandro González Iñárritu is an Academy Award winner. Iñárritu was born in 1963.

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

See the lede of the article Xuxl linked. There are different rules for how to alphabetize and for which name to use. Alphabetization always uses the paternal surname but per the article, it's not so consistent for which name is used to refer to people. This can mean someone is referred to by one name but alphabetized under the other. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I read it. Does Wikipedia have any "rule" ... as to whether we should be doing Example "A" above or Example "B" above? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

The example of Roberto Clemente Walker is useful. He's in the Hall of Fame category under "C", not "W". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, since the name to use when referring to him is a matter of finding out what individuals use, I think the appropriate rule is probably Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Multiple_and_changed_surnames_–_patronymics_and_matronymics. In the specific case of Alejandro González Iñárritu, he's using Iñárritu, as in sources like [3][4][5]. He still gets alphabetized under G, per the rule. :) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:57, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

Rhymes that don't rhyme any more

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'd be glad if somebody could adduce an example of historical English rhymes which don't rhyme any more when read with modern pronunciation, idealiter if it's verses of actual poets (not necessarily one of the most famous ones, but maybe somebody who has a Wikipedia article). I'm not sure if examples even exist, but considering the development English has made from OE, ME to the contemporary language, I'm optimistic that something can be found. The original writing doesn't have to correspond to modern orthography, of course. Galtzaile (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Many examples from Shakespeare's day. In Sonnet 166: "If this be error and upon me proved/ I never writ, nor no man ever loved." [6] Rmhermen (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Here is a paper by David Crystal discussing the fact that a full 96 of Shakespeare's 154 sonnets contains rhymes that don't work in Modern English. [7] CodeTalker (talk) 18:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

"The Tyger": "What immortal hand or eye/Could frame thy fearful symmetry?" --Viennese Waltz 19:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Unless old Will was just being funny. "Every boy and every gal / That's born into this world alive / Is either a little Liberal / Or else a little Conservative." -- Gilbert & Sullivan ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:48, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Did G&S really use a capital L on Liberal? That's confusing for us folks in Australia where the Liberal Party is the major conservative party, and we use the expression "small l liberal" to describe what a lot of Americans think of as the rabid lefties. HiLo48 (talk) 22:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

This[8] says yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:20, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

At the time, the Liberal Party (United Kingdom) was the main opposition to the Conservative Party, so I think the uppercase L makes perfect sense. The Labour Party was almost nonexistent (or perhaps actually nonexistent; I'm a little foggy on that). Of course it the Liberal Party, that is, not Labour was a classical liberal party, free markets and free trade and so on, not "liberal" in the sense of "center-left". --Trovatore (talk) 22:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

In those days, free trade was center-left. —Tamfang (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

If you say so. "Left" and "right" don't mean much to me; I prefer to describe the philosophical position directly rather than give its coordinate along a context-dependent scale. --Trovatore (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Chaucer also provides examples. In the prologue to the Canterbury Tales I see breath/heath, war/far, maid/said, pilgrimage/voyage, mead/red, dagger/spear, piteous/mouse, was/glass... 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:55, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Don't pilgrimage and voyage rhyme? Both end in /ɪdʒ/ for me. TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 13:06, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Their final syllables are the same or at least almost the same, but they're unstressed. Generally to count a rhyme, the words have to agree from their final stressed syllables to the end of the word. --Trovatore (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Argh, sorry, I forgot the stressed part. In that case, though, I don't think they could ever have rhymed. TotallyNotSarcasm [lɨi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈dʒ] [kɔnt͡ɹ̠̝̊ɹ̠ɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 07:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

They could have and they did, because the -age had a long a and was stressed as in French. Hear this, lines 11 and 12, for example. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Sort of. Definitely a lot closer than most of the others. I've also heard said pronounced like maid, but only maybe in a song. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:11, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

See also this recent thread which shows that there are many eye rhymes which were never intended to have matching sounds when spoken. Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks to all! As for the eye rhymes, the paper by Crystal linked in CodeTalker's answer also discusses this question, and also offers a number of rhymes where eye rhymes are less likely, such as waste-past etc. Galtzaile (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Did "Yanni" once rhyme with "Laurel"? —2606:A000:1126:28D:68A0:D82D:EF5B:865F (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

To remind me of the numbers of days in each month, I say a poem with the lines "All the rest have thirty-one, except for February alone" It's annoyed all my life. It doesn't rhyme! Does it rhyme anywhere? Did it ever rhyme? HiLo48 (talk) 04:27, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

As noted in Thirty Days Hath September, there are many versions of this memory aid, some of which actually rhyme, sort of. But that reminds of this old one: "Roses are red / Violets are blue / Some poems rhyme / But this one don't." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:51, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, those two words did rhyme in Shakespeare's dialect, for example. If you look at Crystal's transcription of Sonnet 36, he shows one pronounced as o:ne, with a long O and the final E pronounced - and alone pronounced the same way: alo:ne.70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

A different thing bothers me about that poem (and doesn't seem to be addressed in our article). What is the subject of "hath"? If it's "September", then "hath" is fine, but the other three months seem to be hung out to dry. If on the other hand the subject is "September, April, June, and November", then "hath" is wrong; it should be "have". --Trovatore (talk) 17:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Grammatically, the subject is the series "September, April, June and November". The verb should technically be "have" but is singular to allow the first line to stand by itself. Jmar67 (talk) 20:16, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't think Viennese Waltz's Tyger example is right: the pronunciations of "eye" and "symmetry" haven't changed to make that happen. Haj Ross liked the idea that "symmetry" is probably supposed to be a slant rhyme that hints at "lamb made thee" at the end of the poem. He wrote a 45 page article about the pattern of sounds in that poem here. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 08:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Dialects make a difference. The North of England has no issue with

    But as Froggy was crossing over a brook,
    Heigh ho! says Rowley.
    A lily white duck came and gobbled him up.

Which does not rhyme in the South! Similar for many other words -- Q Chris (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

"Brook" somehow rhymes with "up" ? So do you say "brup" or "ook" ? SinisterLefty (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps "assonates" would have been more accurate than "rhymes". Alansplodge (talk) 20:06, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

October 5

Types of sentences based on grammatical mood

I want to know how many sentences are there in English language based on grammatical moods? Are there four sentences : declarative, question, command and exclamatory? Or are there five sentences: declarative, question, command, optative and exclamatory? --MorningStar123 (talk) 15:54, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

"The optative mood is a grammatical mood that indicates a wish or hope. It is similar to the cohortative mood, and is closely related to the subjunctive mood." Essentially what you're asking is: "Is there any distinction between types of sentences and sentence moods; if so, what?" That's a matter of semantics, (it seems to me). 2606:A000:1126:28D:68A0:D82D:EF5B:865F (talk) 21:33, 5 October 2019 (UTC) . . . There are four types of sentences and there are seven moods of sentences; they don't directly correlate with each other. [edit:21:58, 5 October 2019 (UTC)]

You need to distinguish semantics from morphology -- there could be many different semantic nuances, but as far as verb mood inflections in the traditional sense, English basically only has indicative and imperative (since the historical subjunctive is now split into historical remnants and very limited special-purpose constructions which do not really add up to a coherent whole). AnonMoos (talk) 09:47, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

October 6

‘Apple bobbing’ in Danish

What is the Danish translation for this?83.74.109.234 (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Does that game exist in Denmark? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:45, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

l do not know.83.74.109.234 (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Whether they do or not would indicate whether they have a term, or whether you would have to invent one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:32, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Here it’s called Dyk efter æbler (presumably noun) and dykke efter æbler (verb, but I don’t know how that is inflected since I don’t actually speak Danish). Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 05:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

How did you find it?83.72.43.217 (talk) 09:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

If you can trust Google Translate, those words mean "dive for apples". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:47, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

A little multilingual bonus: I knew the game’s called Apfeltauchen ("apple diving") in German, then used Google Translate. Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 22:50, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

If you really want to know this, then try to find the Danish dub or subtitles for My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic season 2 episode 4 "Luna Eclipsed". This not only mentions bobbing for apples in the dialog, but also shows it on screen, so it will probably appear in the dialog. If you can't find that, then find the Swedish dub or subtitle instead. – b_jonas 12:29, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

• OK. If anyone is still interested, I've finally found the time to look into it. The Danish translation is "Æbledykning" which literally means apple diving. See [9].--Ipigott (talk) 14:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Andantino

In Italian, should applying the diminutive -ino to andante as a pace ("going, walking" on Wiktionary) correctly make it clearly mean "faster than andante" or "slower than andante"? Or is it unclear without further explanation? What should andante molto really mean (e.g. Schubert's D 568/ii)?

Composers have used andantino to mean both, but Italian tempo markings written by non-Italians are sometimes incorrect Italian (e.g. alla ingharese from Beethoven's Rage over a Lost Penny, Op. 129). Since this question is about what these constructions ought to mean in correct Italian, I've asked it here rather than at the Entertainment or Humanities desks. Double sharp (talk) 17:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I doubt the term has any clearly defined meaning outside music, and I also doubt the intended distinction to "andante" was originally one of tempo in the strict sense. These terms were originally markers of character, not of speed as such, and a diminuitive suffix would generally have meant something lighter and gentler in character – that's a characteristic quite orthogonal to whether it's faster or slower. You might find out something more by following the ref given in the German de:Tempo_(Musik) article, which cites New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians for the statement that andantino was sometimes understood as slightly slower than andante "in the 18th and 19th centuries", but is otherwise mostly treated as slightly faster. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Franz Schubert's Music in Performance (p. 213) has a table showing various composers' ideas on the relative speed of musical terms and notes that: "Concerning Andantino, Czerny and Schubert (along with Krahmer, Junghanns, and Swoboda) were in agreement [that it was faster than andante], but were opposed by Rigler, Petri, Preindl, and Hummel. Beethoven does not use the term Andantino". Alansplodge (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I could interpret andantino as a noun meaning "short, moderately slow passage", analogous to wikt:concertino. Jmar67 (talk) 09:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

October 7

The royal they

The article royal we says:

The royal we, or majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis), is the use of a plural pronoun (or corresponding plural-inflected verb forms) to refer to a single person who is a monarch.

Is that only for first-person pronouns? E.g. is it a grammatically correct use of the majestic plural to refer to Emperor Naruhito or Queen Elizabeth as "they"? To be clear, this would not be the singular they, which some people consider ungrammatical.

Thanks. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 00:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)