Talk:WorldNetDaily

Conwebwatch

It's an invalid source, they're not a news agency and they exclusively criticize "conservatives". WND has plenty of Libertarians running around its pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.246.214.145 (talk) 17:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• • I changed nothing, but Media Matters is an invalid source as well. Calling it a watchdog group is just plain silly. It is a propaganda site, and one that spreads lies at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jspugh (talk • contribs) 23:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Much of the research against WND goes straight to the original articles themselves, except of course in cases where Farah performs an intentional hit-and-run and scrub-job. CWW and MMfA are valid sources in this matter. Nomen Redactis (talk) 17:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Controversies and Conwebwatch

The controversies on this article are a POV violation and they are sourced to a political website conwebwatch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.66.94 (talk) 19:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

List of columnists

I removed this unsourced section. Can the most current and notable writers be mentioned her with sources? I'll be honest that I have never visited this site{actually visited today to check reference lefy on recent edit summary) so I not sure how it operates as far as its staff/writers. Anyways, Tom 01:46, 13 March 2009 (UTc

I think it's fair to ask why an editor who admits to knowing nothing about the subject is editing the article and then deleting substantial portions of the article. I'm sure no agenda is involved, but am curious nonetheless.Jimintheatl (talk) 02:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I end up here from a related bio from the BLP board actually. The "list" is not really helpful and there is already a section about the more notable contributors. Also, my agenda is listed on my user page. Yours? Tom 02:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. WND is often disparaged as (paraphrasing) "a right-wing whackjob conspiracy theorist site". The list of respected authors serves to establish credibility as a "real journalism" site. ⇔ ChristTrekker 14:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

If I might add a third voice, the article lists authors that don't turn up on searches of the site or on the site's list of contributors, at the very least citations to validate the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.222.212.21 (talk) 22:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. The article already has a section about the different contributors which is fine but should be reviewed for accuracy. One of the mentioned contributors has not contributed in last seven years it seems, is it ok to keep them listed? Anyways, Tom 01:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

In looking back on it, that list is easily long enough to be split off into a standalone List of WorldNetDaily contributors which could then be linked to from this article. If consensus is that it's a useful list, that would probably be our best bet. Each entry would indeed have to be referenced, but that should be easy enough to do if WorldNetDaily has a searchable archive. --Fullobeans (talk) 08:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Not another (useless)list, augghhh :). Seriously, does WND "pick up" stories by these columnists or do these writers specifically write articles for this web site? TIA, --Tom 13:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Dunno. The link I clicked on in an edit summary this week linked to a bunch of WND "exclusive commentaries" by Bill O'Reilly. I don't know how the site usually works though. I could see a list being useful. I could also see it amounting to a nearly indiscriminate list of every conservative writer and sometimes-writer of the past decade. I'd like to hear the opinions of some more people who are familiar with the topic. --Fullobeans (talk) 04:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Many (most?) of the columnists are syndicated writers. Some of them are on staff with WND (Jerome Corsi), or are "freelancers" whose first/only writing gig was with them (Kyle Williams). ⇔ ChristTrekker 14:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

ConWebWatch take 2

Is there any reason at all to think this is a reliable source? -- Avi (talk) 00:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Right wing & Conservative, in the lead

These are two different concepts (but related), and two different articles:

• Right-wing politics
• Conservatism in the United States

Right-wingers aren't automatically conservative, and conservatives aren't automatically right wingers, but both phrases are used to describe this site's content and nature.

We need the lead to accurately reflect how the world and reliable sources view this website for our readers. Thoughts? rootology (C)(T) 15:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

According to Right-wing politics, "In politics, right-wing, rightist and the Right are terms applied to conservative (Conservatism in the United States), and reactionary positions." If you look closely at the definitions, they are virtually the same meaning. But I'm not going to fight for it, it isn't a huge deal. Let's just move on and not create wikidrama. :) TheAE talk/sign 16:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I have moved it to the description section WorldNetDaily#Description where it belongs. I do not see any political tagging in the lede in the articles on The New York Times or Independent Media Center, for example. Why should this be different? The description is accurate and well-sourced, but putting it in the lead, unlike other publications, may be a WP:POV violation of Poisoning the well. -- Avi (talk) 05:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

As of 9/16/09 the first sentence says republican, far right, or conservative. Regardless of where WND leans equating these three different ideas is inaccurate. Republican is center right (according to wikipedia) and saying that is the same thing as far right doesn't make sense. 4:17 PST 9/16/09 (rocke4444)

At least the first sentence of the site has changed from stating WND is a "news source" to " American online web site, but American is questionable since since Farah often describes himself as an Arab-American and has many have noted WND does not necessarily represent views of Americans or the conservative party. On the contrary, many conservatives (ie REPUBLICANS) are actively boycotting World Net Daily over the "birther" idiocy that that tabloid pushes: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/09/01/conservative-boycott-of-right-wing-worldnetdaily-over-embarrass/ Even WND itself acknowledges this fact. There are other countless other web articles to support the position that WND is NOT CONSERVATIVE. The best way to describe WND is a radical right wing propaganda tabloid. When websites like stormfront.org (a neo-nazi organization) and white supremacy sites (the KKK for example) frequently cite WND articles as valid news sources (even though most would recognize that they are not) it's insulting and disturbing for Wikipedia to infer that WND views are equated with those of the GOP or Americans in general for that matter. http://digg.com/world_news/Google_StormFront_WorldNetDaily_1_450_hits 76.187.246.201 (talk) 20:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)AgiosTheseus

It's so obvious

Typical lefties at Wiki added every unsourced negative thing they could find to this article. Why don't you guys go tell THE TRUTH on the NYT article? Left and Jihadi-infested Wiki. How far you've fallen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.184.141 (talk • contribs) 01:54, March 25, 2009 (UTC)

All articles need to be approached and addressed with the same, neutral perspective. Personal feelings about the left- or right-wing nature of sites should not steer us into trying to manipulate the article to that effect. -- Avi (talk) 17:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

That was exacly my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.184.141 (talk) 07:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You guys should see the latest post I made...I added a WP:NPOV tag to wherever it claimed WND was Conservative, for as you said, the only sources was the NYT article. --Donatrip (talk) 04:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Controversies

Someone should update that list to include Judith Reisman's article comparing GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network) and participants in the Day of Silence to Nazis and the Hitler Youth ASAP. 207.75.37.104 (talk) 23:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

World Net Daily Besieged

Once again the World Net Daily is complaining of being denied press access. Just like at the Copenhagen council on Global Warming it was denied a press credential; and now we see a complaint that it is being denied Washington D.C. access by the White House Press Corps, with an accusation that Obama is using the Press Corps to restrict opposing viewpoints: Under the President George W. Bush administration the opposing viewpoints were noxious and notorious--openly offensive in slander against Republicans--for the man accused of being a drunk, while President Barack Obama would wear a "party naked" t-shirt at a videotaped conference (whole different points of view are being seen in identity politics, that in the reverses show a lot of hypocrisy). Barack Obama is notorious for using exclusive access for paying clients, as he is a lawyer trained family, where even during the President Election he would personally tell uninvited guests to go-away; but as a public figure from the White House the Obama and the Democrats he coat-tailed (they ride his coat-tails behind him) into the President Halls of Empowerment is having problems restricting press access, as he has gave orders to the press--in the past--to not record his public speeches, that is a gag order, like seen in courts of law, that is a violation of the freedom of press, because legal authorities have no right to censor the press for their personal purposes. World Net Daily, that covers many topics, is seeing their complaints at restricted access: I have read World Net Daily, it is not the Sun of London; they actually are critical of the problems in government and other things that show abuse, inconsistent, power-ploys, and the usual identity politics of government showing the hypocrisy in the face of our real world--as the cycle of life continues its clown show of arrogance, vanity, narcissism, weakness, speculations, imaginations, and futility. There is a wikipedia complaint that the left is censoring World Net Daily, and like a moth to flame they show up at their eye-sore (they surround themselves with what they approve and banish the eye-sore), never seen different at that behavior (even the Christian churches online get the witches, homosexuals, lesbians, pagans, atheist, and every ball-buster to show up with their personal stream of insanity demanding obedience from Jesus Christ to their personal "Sid and Marty Krofft" world of children viewpoints from the "Land of the Lost," and World Net Daily faces the same problem). The complaint: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=139657 Have a nice day.

Controversies, sources & WikiProject Alternative Views

(Note to future readers: the following comment is based on how the article looked here.)

I know the WND article tends to attract all kinds of editors (mostly the site's conservative fans and liberal detractors), but it's rather obvious this article's content is lopsided. Adding a long list of "controversies/criticisms" is popular with some editors who have an axe to grind, but we all need to remember WP:NPOV is policy (I'm specifically referring to WP:UNDUE and WP:STRUCTURE). I'm not saying we should remove the controversies already mentioned (as long as they cite neutral, third-party sources - see below), but starting a new section for each incident seems unnecessary. Combining the criticism sections would improve the table of contents' appearance, not to mention the overall layout of the page. Unless someone objects, I'll combine the sections in the next day or so.

The article cites the WND website 35 times. WP:SELFPUB states that self-published sources can be used as long as the article isn't primarily based on them. Does anyone else think 35 is a bit much? A related issue is the use of Media Matters for America and ConWebWatch as sources 9 times (I'll let others discuss whether or not The Nation can be considered neutral). The two organizations are partisan advocacy groups/media watchdogs, so I can't see them being considered neutral, reliable sources when discussing WND (ex: read the "About" section on ConWebWatch.com, especially the "Focus" section). The Media Matters for America article also contains a large number of self-published sources, but only 3 that would be described as conservative (Fox News). I wonder what would happen if an editor tried to cite WND on the MMA article? (answer) If someone can assist me with replacing the MMA and CWW sources (unless the reference is being used as an example in the WND article) with neutral, third-party sources, I'd appreciate it.

I noticed the article was recently tagged with Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative Views. WND might fall under their project scope, but I don't know since their project name and description is rather vague. But after reading this, I'm not sure how it's related.

In case someone asks, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm going to post similar messages on a few other conservative and liberal media articles. APK thinks he's ready for his closeup 13:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

COLB vs. COB, and removal of some material.

In this edit I've removed some fact-tagged taxt from the article, to wit: "... , even though Obama's campaign already posted it on its' website and a hard copy of the document is sealed by state law." This is {{fact}} tagged. The document posted online was a "Certificatation of Live Birth" (COLB), not a "Certificate of Birth" (COB). There are differences between these types of documents which have been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum. Rather than open up yet another discussion here about COLBs vs. COBs, I've removed the bit I've quoted above. The removed text appears to me to be incidental to the point of the paragraph

Separatism

Any evidence that WND promotes separatism? I reverted such labeling of WND. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 05:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia now a Left-wing Blog?

This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. It should give information about the subject of the encyclopedia entry. This may very well include what makes the person or entity noteworthy, including accomplishments and mis-steps and controversy.

However, a Wikipedia article that ONLY lists criticisms of World Net Daily cannot be a serious encyclopedia article.

Although most Wikipedia participants operate it as a left-wing blog and propaganda tool for the far Laft, it is not supposed to be that way.

An encyclopedia should cover the whole picture of the subject of the entry, not ONLY attack.

Unless this article, like others, INFORMS the reader of the basic facts and the "good" and "bad" issues across the board, then it becomes nothing but a hit piece and turns Wikipedia into just a Left-Wing propaganda blog.

Step back and think about this: How can you have a serious encyclopedia article that consists ONLY of listing "CONTROVERSIAL ARTICLES?"

Would any other newspaper or magazine be described only in terms of its "CONTROVERSIAL ARTICLES?"

Listing only perceived negatives is not a proper encyclopedia article.

206.48.0.60 (talk) Jon Moseley —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.48.0.60 (talk) 15:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's perfectly appropriate to only list criticisms if there are no notable pro-WND reliable sources. I don't know if that's true or not, but balance does not mean you give equal weight to the 1% of dissenting opinions - we don't state that the world may be flat just because some people believe so, we state that scientific evidence shows that it is a oblate spheroid (roughly). The world is clearly not flat, and to give equal weight to their claims would be ridiculous. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but WND is not a discredited scientific theory. That analogy is completely fallacious. 76.121.170.235 (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The word you're looking for is specious, not fallacious, but I disagree. This is how Wikipedia works - we print that which is verifiably and reliably sourced. If there are no reliable sources that say nice things about WND, it may well be there's a good reason for it. Of course, you could always go out and find sources saying nice things about WND, in which case they could be put into the article. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I meant fallacy. Here is its definition as a refresher for you: "An argument, or apparent argument, which professes to be decisive of the matter at issue, while in reality it is not; a sophism." The point is that using the discredited scientific theory argument on an entity like WND makes no sense. WND might have errors in it, but so does the NYT. And that an article is filled with primarily negative things is a function of the bias of the general wikipedia editors. Perhaps you don't see it, but that is because of your biases. One doesn't need to dig up proof of the contrary to state something is biased. To use your analogy: I don't need to present an alternative theory to discredit an existing one. 76.121.170.235 (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see how a controversy automatically is a negative and an attack. There is no way you can discuss WorldNetDaily without bringing up at least two controversies -- the birther conspiracy theory and the North American Union conspiracy theory, in my opinion. WorldNetDaily took a controversial position on these two positions and prominently reported on them. Reporting on a controversy does not automatically mean that the report is of a certain political opinion. I could likewise say that Michael Moore made statements that were controversial, for instance. --Soundwave106 (talk) 17:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The question is asked: "Would any other newspaper or magazine be described only in terms of its "CONTROVERSIAL ARTICLES?"" and the answer is yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globe_Magazine . My only complaint is that WND get much more coverage than the Globe Magazine even though I would argue that the latter is more notable. Kevin (talk) 22:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortuantely, 'controversy' has become one of the unofficial legitmate factors for deeming notability. NN people, places, religious ceremonies, organizations become worthy of an article when there is 'controversy' or if the article exists, UNDUE weight is tolerated. This is one of the unavoidable disadvantages of WP. There is no ability to make sure that articles are proportional in content. --Shuki (talk) 07:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Reach Numbers aren't right

Keep in mind that WorldNetDaily operates under two Internet domains, worldnetdaily.com and wnd.com. If you look at the Quantcast charts for both domains, you see a sharp transition in worldnetdaily.com from millions to essentially zero, where for wnd.com you see much the opposite. Whatever the underlying mechanism is for this transition, the 11,000 visitor number in the WP article is not even on the right planet. I'll fix it to say "33 million in September" I also changed WorldNetDaily.com to WND.com preceding the Quantcast number to be correct about where the number is coming from (Quantcast number for wnd.com).Kevin (talk) 23:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Western Journalism Center

WND was not founded as a for profit subsidiary of the Western Journalism Center. The link provided to substantiate this claim makes no mention of this, and Farah himself has denied it. So, I removed it from the history section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.61.46.16 (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Reliable source

FYI. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#WorldNetDaily --Shuki (talk) 07:44, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Dispute (section) - "Controversial Aricles" POV

The "Controversial Aricles" are POV, and the section itself seems to be WP:Original Research.24.40.158.36 (talk) 02:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe your assessment may be accurate. All offerings in this section should be checked for sourcing adequate to establishing WND's notability as an identifiable party subjected to WP:RS criticism in something other than an editor's perhaps POV perception. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

After some consideration and as your original comment appears to suggest a "section" neutrality problem, I am taking the liberty of re-designating your "POV" tag as a section tag, and both linking and re-naming this section IAW suggested Wiki guidelines. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

On a general note the article is quite poor, although getting better. Most of the 'sources' are from WND articles. Contributors to the article have taken statements from WND that they didn't like and put them here, then tried to justify their inclusion by adding sources to say that in general people who make these kind of statements aren't liked. Original research at best - I really don't know how it has stayed like this, especially since there is a discussion about the article at RS/N. How did anyone there make up their minds when the article was so bad? I have removed more Obama stuff - there was no source claiming controversy, just a WND piece debunking an alleged Obama birth certificate, which they had already referred to as alleged in a previous article. How is that controversial? And anyway, it isn't for us to judge, only verify - and verification is not possible since it seems no-one thought it controversial. Except whoever added it to this article. Weakopedia (talk) 07:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

"Controversial Articles" - Deletion - "Litvinenko and terrorism conspiracy"

I have deleted "Litvinenko and terrorism conspiracy" from the article as the edit misrepresents WND as the source of the "controversy", the nature of the source cited as a news "article" as opposed to "commentary" and the source content itself. What might remain after correction is unsourced in identifying WND as a subject of media "controversy" for their reportage of this "story". --JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:37, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Amendment to "Controversial Articles" - Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories - "Orly Taitz" Document

I had amended this entry to reflect what is, in my opinion, a misrepresentation of WND's actual reportage, evident in both the actual title of the story, its first paragraph content and subsequent content. That edit was reverted and comments solicited...for which I have started this section.

The content in question is the final paragraph of this section currently containing the following:

• On August 2, 2009, WorldNetDaily published an article claiming that a certified copy of registration of Obama's birth had been obtained and produced by Orly Taitz, a leading citizenship conspiracy theorist. The document purportedly proved that Barack Obama had been born at a hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. The document has almost immediately proven to be a fake. On September 6, Taitz released another birth certificate supposedly proving Obama's Kenyan birth; this was also debunked as a fake, this time by WND reporter Jerome Corsi.

The following assertion that...

World Net Daily was "....claiming that a certified copy of registration of Obama's birth had been obtained..."

...mis-represents WND's reportage, evidenced by both the title of the article itself and by the article content, as early as in the first paragraph...

"Is this really smoking gun of Obama's Kenyan birth?"

WASHINGTON – California attorney Orly Taitz, who has filed a number of lawsuits demanding proof of Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president, has released a copy of what purports to be a Kenyan certification of birth and has filed a new motion in U.S. District Court for its authentication.

[snip]

It was allegedly issued as a certified copy of the original in February 1964.

The title clearly demonstrates that WND was not asserting authenticity of the document and that fact was re-substantiated in the first paragraph by use of the qualifying "purports" and the subsequent descriptive, "allegedly issued", cited above.

Nor is the following sentence, apparently the contributing Wiki editor's own paraphrasing, either sourced or attributable to either an assertion or even an allegation made by WND in its reportage...

"The document purportedly proved that Barack Obama had been born at a hospital in Mombasa, Kenya"

If anything, the allegation might be "assumed" to have been made by Mr. Taitz both by its initial offering and subsequent use as alleged evidence in support of his court petition for "permission to legally request documents from Kenya".

Nor does the following pass muster...

"An image purporting to represent this certified copy of birth registration is at the article."

This is, again, the contributing Wiki editor's own paraphrase. The correct descriptive should be "alleged certified copy". While paraphrasing source content is often warranted, at least present such content as sourceable and accurate.

I propose, again, the following edit...

• On August 2, 2009, WorldNetDaily reported that an alleged certified copy of registration of Obama's birth had been obtained and produced by Orly Taitz, a leading citizenship conspiracy theorist, and that Mr. Taitz offered it as documentary evidence supporting his allegation that Barack Obama had been born at a hospital in Mombasa, Kenya.. The document has almost immediately proven to be a fake. On September 6, Taitz released another birth certificate supposedly proving Obama's Kenyan birth; this was also debunked as a fake, this time by WND reporter Jerome Corsi.

There's still more to quibble with in this edit, but this will do for a starter. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Mindful that my intent is to argue for further amendment (and perhaps deletion in its entirety), I have inserted the above edit and invite comment from any interested editor. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I am deleting the following entry...

The document was almost immediately proven to be a fake

The source does not reference the "Fact Check" document but, instead, an entirely different document about which there is no established relationship to World Net Daily. I have also slightly amended the remaining text which was impacted by the deletion. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed some more. The Obama section said that WND had run a campaign against Obama over the birth certificate which was later proved to be false, however the two 'sources' provided did not even mention WND at all. Basically WND did some reporting on the birth certificate, a while later some other people in the news discussed the birth certificate, and that caused someone to come here and add all that to the article despite the two events being unconnected. However since there was no sourcing for that section, and I can't find a reliable secondary source to say that WND caused any controversy over this. The entire passage was original research and couldn't be supported so I removed it. Weakopedia (talk) 06:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

WorldNetDaily RS/N

There is an active RS Noticeboard discussion in progress relating to WND's status under WP:RS. Any interested editors are encouraged to contribute. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:44, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

ConWebWatch

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/about.html

This is a self-published opinion site and not a reliable source, certainly not for controverial matters. If there is an actual controversy about WorldNetDailys Mideast reporting it should have been found in other more reliable sources. Removing CWWs non-notable opinions means the entire section has to go. Regards. Weakopedia (talk) 11:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I have removed a few more minor things - minor in the sense that they were unsourced and clearly original research and therefore had no place. Controversial claims require reliable sourcing and the controversies section had little of that. Weakopedia (talk) 17:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Dispute (section) - source citations inadequate

Neither of the sources purportedly evidencing the characterization of WND as "unreliable" (John Young commentary, Media Matters article) either utilize that descriptive or support such a characterization. Even moreso, the "Media Matters" source, an allegation of WND publishing a "falsehood", is specious in its own rationale for making the allegation. I have deleted those purported sources and applied to the "unreliable" entry. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure that either of those would be considered reliable sources anyway. Weakopedia (talk) 19:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Nor am I, but that's another discussion, perhaps, for another time...another circumstance...another venue (although an RS/N on MM as an RS relative to "Newsbusters" and the "Media Research Center" was just archived...and they didn't fair as well as one might have expected [or hoped for?]). --JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I just noted your deletion of the paragragh in question. Please be advised that I have reverted your deletion of the subject text, not because I might disagree with your rationale, but because this issue goes to the heart of the RS/N currently under discussion and I believe an editor who might be interested in supporting this WND "unreliable" characterization should be afforded a window of opportunity to support it with valid sourcing. I am also redesignating this section in support of a "Section Dispute" tag which I have attached. I'd appreciate it, should you elect to delete any of the remainder, that you do so under a new section with appropriate comment. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

"Controversial Articles" - Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories - "Birth Certificates" - Farah commentary, Dec 20, 2008

Further examination of this article content reveals even more misrepresentation of fact. The article currently contains the following...

In an August 23, 2008, article about Berg's lawsuit, WND claimed it had investigated Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate utilizing forgery experts and, "found the document to be authentic," contradicting claims made in other WND articles and in Corsi's book. However, on December 20, after numerous liberal websites, politicians and media personalities touted WND's findings, Joseph Farah claimed in a WND column that the forgery experts had not actually concluded it was authentic and that, "None of them could report conclusively that the electronic image [of the birth certificate on Obama's campaign website] was authentic or that it was a forgery."

This is yet another iteration of the same factual error, founded in the same misrepresentation of facts within sourcing that mandated correction elsewhere. Referencing the August 23, 2008, WND article as sourcing for the following text (apparently the contributing Wiki editor's own paraphrase of the story content),...

WND claimed it had investigated Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate utilizing forgery experts

...the edit misrepresents WND's actual reportage and misidentifies the object of WND's reportage as "Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate" when, in fact, it was a FactCheck.org proffered "image" of the actual "Obama birth certificate" that FactCheck had been permitted to examine on or about Aug 21, 2008 and in which FactCheck's claim of authenticity WND concurred and subsequently qualified in the article itself (but did NOT retract).

Next, compounding (and perhaps capitalizing on) the misidentification of that "Aug 23" object of WND examination, the Wiki editor continues...

However,...

...quite obviously implying that subsequent text would qualify, somehow, WND's earlier reportage supporting the authenticity of the FactCheck "image" and its purported content...

...on December 20,...Joseph Farah claimed in a WND column that the forgery experts had not actually concluded it was authentic and that, "None of them could report conclusively that the electronic image [of the birth certificate on Obama's campaign website] was authentic or that it was a forgery."

The Wiki editor, in his/her own paraphrase, identifies Farah's comments of Dec. 20 as referencing the "...the birth certificate on Obama's campaign website" yet states in the text that Farah's Dec. 20 statement contradicts WND's earlier Aug. 23 reportage on the FactCheck "image" and that WND "forgery experts had not actually concluded it was authentic". This is a blatant misrepresentation of fact, and is evidenced by Farah's actual quote in the Dec. 20 commentary (emphasis mine)...

WND did offer up to forgery experts the facsimile of a partial birth certificate posted on his website.

...and the differentiation and identification of the 2 different images in question reported by FactCheck.org in their earlier article on Aug. 21 (emphasis mine)...

The scan released by the campaign shows halos around the black text, making it look (to some) as though the text might have been pasted on top of an image of security paper. But the document itself has no such halos, nor do the close-up photos we took of it. We conclude that the halo seen in the image produced by the campaign is a digital artifact from the scanning process.

I have made the following edit...including removal of text alleging "contradictory claims made in other WND articles and in Corsi's book" that has remained uncited since July, 2009 and an uncited reference to "numerous liberal websites, politicians and media personalities" "touting" WND's findings (which I would have attempted to restate had any sourcing been provided indicating the original purpose of the text inclusion)...

In an August 23, 2008, article about Berg's lawsuit, WND reported it had investigated FactCheck.org's proffered image of the "Obama Birth Certificate" utilizing forgery experts and, "found the document to be authentic," On December 20, 2008, in a WND column, Joseph Farah claimed that an examination of the original Obama Campaign proffered image by forgery experts could not "report conclusively that the electronic image was authentic or that it was a forgery." [1]

Whether or not these "facts", now correctly stated, warrant inclusion as "controversial" is another question in an of itself. Comments are solicited. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

In continuing to consider the reportage on this issue, the FactCheck article of Aug 21, 2008, on closer examination, appears to suggest that Farah's skepticism as to the authenticity of the Obama Campaign proffered document, expressed in his Dec 20 commentary, might not be without some foundation. To re-iterate, FactCheck observes...

The scan released by the campaign shows halos around the black text, making it look (to some) as though the text might have been pasted on top of an image of security paper...We conclude that the halo seen in the image produced by the campaign is a digital artifact from the scanning process.

Note that FactCheck.org does not dismiss, out-of-hand, the legitimacy of skepticism expressed "by some" as to a definitive establishment of the authenticity of the Obama Campaign proffered image or its content. In fact, they appear to be of the opinion that those expressions of skepticism were legitimate enough to warrant their own examination and to report their own "conclusion" as to the suspect halos. Also note that this expression of skepticism was apparently not limited to WND alone since the phrase "by some" suggests multiple (albeit unidentified) sources. Had WND been the sole source for this "skepticism", it seems likely that FactCheck would have so stated in its commentary. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Most of the Criticism section (I renamed controversies) is sourced to WND itself. That means that it is the opinion of a Wikipedia editor we are reading. Right now the Obama section has two paragraphs. The first is entirely original research, taking references from WND and then inserting them to make a point. I was about to remove the whole paragraph but that involves rewriting the second, which does at least have a source, so I am going to investigate the claims first. If I can find reliable sources to show there was controversy over any of the claims I will alter the Obama section to reflect that.

With the limited sources on the page I could easily strip that whole criticism section down to a few words, but obviously some people don't like WND and I keep thinking they must have some reason... So I will try to find sources for the reason, or I will begin deletion.

By the by I see the Libel Lawsuit section is sourced only to WND and Conwebwatch. CWW is definitely not a reliable source so I think that section will be next, either reliably sourced or removed.Weakopedia (talk) 16:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think sourcing the "libel lawsuit" is problematical. WND itself documents the incident as have, I believe, several other RS I've encountered. As to ConWebWatch as an RS, my plate is a bit too full to even go near that right now. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I really should learn to look a bit more before I leap. A few minutes searching seems to indicate that sourcing for the "Libel Lawsuit" is not nearly as prolific as I had previously thought. Besides WND itself (which seems, by far, to be the most "reliable source" a cursory search uncovers), there is a small mention of it in a Huffington Post commentary. It would probably be the height of irony were WND to be the primary source for reportage on its own litigation outcome. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Claimed" vs. "Stated"

I reverted an edit changing "stated" to "claimed". I believe the original edit raised an extremely valid point which should be considered in the choice between the two. IMHO, if there is some demonstrated reason to doubt the validity of an assertion, "claim" would certainly be appropriate. However, without that qualification, the use of "claim" vs "stated" ventures deeply into "weasel word" territory and might easily be construed as POV. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Alright then, I've made a similar change in the article where appropriate. American Eagle (talk) 05:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine by me --JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with the your change as well, as long as pro-WND isn't "claimed" while anti-WND is "stated". As long as both sides are given equal treatment, "states" works for me. :) American Eagle (talk) 06:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I certainly agree with your point and more than catch your drift. I'd suggest, however, that regardless of our perspectives, we can both be on the same side...NPOV.

Quite frankly, IMHO this article is/was simply such a disaster in terms of the chronic misrepresentation of purported "facts" that I've not even looked at the finer aspects of NPOV like the use of "weasel words" to inject POV...but I'm grateful for any observations in that regard nonetheless. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Obama 'death camps'

Someone tried adding this again - here is what their source says.

'One of the most popular far-right websites, WorldNetDaily (with 5m readers a month), has argued that Obama’s healthcare reforms appear designed “to create the type of detention centre” that people “fear” could be used as “concentration camps for political dissidents, such as occurred in Nazi Germany”.'

The source doesn't say these claims are controversial, nor does it say WND got any criticism, nor does it criticise WND so putting that claim in the article is original research, a synthesis of disparate facts that remains unsourced, and I have once again deleted the offending passage. Weakopedia (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

POV statement tag after mentions that WND was "Conservative"

The article that is used to site the fact that WND is a Conservative news source is an unreliable source, IN THIS CASE . Anyone can say their opinion about something else, and vaguely disguise it as news. For instance, I could probably find blogs, or even articles questioning the liberal or left-winged biased of the New York Times. So should I put that political alignment on that page, and cite it so people would think it is true? I'm not questioning whether or not they are Conservative, I'm questioning the validity of the statement made in the source used to cite this so called "fact". A true source would be a professor of politics, not a journalist's opinion. Until someone can come up with a better source (like I said...a professor) I believe we should take off anything to do with their "political views". Donatrip (talk) 04:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• The New York Times fails WP:RS? Really? When did this happen? Bollocks, that's what this RFC is. A newspaper, especially one as reputable as the NYT, is a perfectly valid source of information on politics (and indeed, one of the best sources we have for politics-related articles). The Wordsmith^Communicate 04:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not questioning the NYT as a whole, just this one article, and just the fact that it was a "blip" in the article! It wasn't even the main topic of the article! It was like saying "Mr. Joe, who owns the store on Main Street, just won a million dollars!". Does it matter in this article? A real source would be an ENTIRE article devoted JUST for the purpose of saying WND is a Conservative news source. Could I find a few words in some off-topic article claiming NYT was a Liberal news source? Probably. So should I go and write that their "View" is Liberal? You tell me. Oh, and notice how I bolded "IN THIS CASE" in the first sentence. Donatrip (talk) 05:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

thats a stretch! good enough reference for the statement, and since your no one is contesting it conservative site a rather stupid argument. Weaponbb7 (talk) 05:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Donatrip, shouting isn't going to make your opinions any more valid. In this case there is absolutely no reason for you to contest the validity of the NYT piece. Additionally WND is mentioned as conservative in publications such as the Washington Post, MSNBC, even France 24. And as Weaponbb77 pointed out to you there is no-one contesting that WND is considered conservative, except you, and the consensus is not that the word needs further citation. I am undoing your assertion of disputed neutrality, though if you find any evidence that shows this matter in a different light please present it. Weakopedia (talk) 05:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

BTW you seem to have a misunderstanding of what is necessary to verify material added to this encyclopedia - nowhere on Wikipedia does it say that you need the word of a professor of politics to identify a groups political affiliation, and if you had employed a Google search you could have found out that there are many mainstream publications listing WND as conservative. Weakopedia (talk) 05:46, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

According to research done by the Department of Political Science, UCLA, The New York Times "received a score far left of center." in it's political position. [2] So the question then becomes, do we accept the opinion of far left liberals on who is conservative, and vice versa, meaning using hard conservative sources to determine who is liberal? Still the NYT is somewhat of a special case since it has a big reputation in the hard news business. But it is true that there should be no double standard if there is a tag here saying conservative as a fact, then a tag should be considered at the NYT saying liberal as a fact. Hobartimus (talk) 09:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

If there can reasonably be said to be any doubt as to the reliability of the source then this discussion may be better held at the reliable sources noticeboard or the neutral point of view noticeboard - the RFC isn't likely to clear that up. The NYT is usually considered a reliable source so it's use here is non-controversial, doubts about that reliability would have a wider impact than this article alone and should probably be raised where they would receive the most attention. Weakopedia (talk) 13:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(revised edit made at 3EST) I have decided that since WND is Conservative, I am going to change the NYT to show that they are liberal, using the study made by UCLA. How's that for you? Donatrip (talk) 01:19, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It is POV to call it conservative. Disraeli and Churchill were conservative, this is just backward. The Four Deuces (talk) 04:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

No, it would be POV to ignore the fact that WND is called conservative in several sources. The examples you mention are from more than half a century ago yet conservatism outlived them both. If you have information which counters that you would be better discussing it at the conservatism page. Weakopedia (talk) 07:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It's also POV to ignore the sources that say the NYT is liberal...is it not? Donatrip (talk) 01:22, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

They have probably been teaching "advocacy journalism" at Columbia for longer than I would care to remember (or document for that matter). Assuming that to be a valid observation (which is, of course, a dangerous presumption in and of itself around these parts) and currently reflected in the contemporary product of more than a few media sources, it seems both encyclopedic and logical to make note of those characterizations when the ideological base of that "advocacy" is generally recognized (and, in many cases, self-declared). That being said (and as is demonstrated by the short life of your New York Times edit), "encyclopedic and logical" may bear little resemblance to a Wikipedia treatment. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:52, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

This is sad but true I suppose...another reason I put a POV on this was because it was said over and over again not to be a WP:RS...and when people come to the page to look the first thing they see is the "conservative" political alignment and just create the assumption that their news is more like conservative blog entries, or columns (like newspaper columns). All I'm asking is for all these articles to be equal in treatment. Apparently, as you said, that is too much to ask on Wikipedia. --Donatrip (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Obviously World Net Daily is a conservative news source with a very, very strong ideological bent, and that's not a problematic statement. If the sourcing (which I have not examined) is not acceptable, find a more reliable source. I won't get too involved in discussion here because there seems to be a determined attempt to falsely portray World Net Daily as in some way related to the mainstream. --TS 03:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not saying that it isn't conservative, you are right it is, I am saying it is POV to call it conservative when you don't give the documented evidence of other news sources being conservative/liberal. --Donatrip (talk) 03:32, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment Donald, Jake, chill down, i see what your saying, Please stop jumping into other articles to make a point. Your NYT edit has been reverted and frankly there is more to that than this, lets work on dialogue here and not righteous anger. I am still confused, what is the RFC over whether the WND is conservative? I reccomend picking your battles here as anyone can define it as such. its Really almost WP:BLUE, i agree you bring up a wider issue on Wiki about its own liberal bias, which is shifting a bit. But coming in irate does not help things; its makes you look like a dumb redneck or teabagger. I say this becuase i sympathize with you position here to point not becuase i am trying insult youWeaponbb7 (talk) 03:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not coming in irate, I just get a tad bit mad when people still don't understand the point of the POV. It doesn't matter if WND is conservative or not! The fact is, it is POV to call it conservative, while ignoring the other sources that shoe signs of political bias in other news sources as well. It wouldn't be POV to call it conservative, if all the other news outlets got treated the same way this one does. --Donatrip (talk) 16:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The point of this article tho is to show whether WND is conservative or something else, if that is what is reported in the reliable sources. Again I say to you, the WPost is considered a reliable source for statements like this - considered that by consensus. If you think that consensus was arrived at in error, then the reliable sources noticeboard would be a much better venue for your argument. And, if you think that there are other reliable sources that support or contradict the assertion by the WPost, please list them so we can better work out what needs to be in the article. Weakopedia (talk) 16:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Reach

WND has stated that it receives eight million visitors a month to its website. Quantcast said that WND.com had 33 million monthly visitors, or, about 1 million daily visitors, as of September 2009. From July 2000 to early 2002, WorldNetDaily offered a service called TalkNetDaily, which provided an Internet audio stream of a daily talk show by then-WND columnist Geoff Metcalf.

The source doesn't show WND claiming 8 million visitors a month, it says they claimed as of June 2000 to have a total readership of 250,000. The second source is an estimate, and it estimates WND stats at around 15,000 visitors a month from America. That is a long way from 1 million people a day, so unless I am missing something the entire paragraph makes no sense. I've moved it here for further consideration and sourcing. Weakopedia (talk) 15:18, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

"Quantcast" appears to have some reporting anomaly inre WND. Alexa appears to reflect relatively the same traffic statistics shown by Quantcast before whatever it was that caused the WND downward spike in Quantcast reporting. According to "Quantcast", in early March 2009 WND generated around 2.7M views?/month, actually exceeding that of MSNBC. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Are those views or search results? And is there a way of tying all this together to include in the article, or are the units too difficult to compare? I started by trying to fix the paragraph, rather than delete it or move it here, but it was like comparing apples and oranges with the source material. Weakopedia (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Are those views or search results?

Views I would assume. The Quantcast "monthly traffic" stats are presentable as either "people" or "visits" per day/week/month (which are proximate anyway). In their sidebar referencing MSNBC, they report that "This site reaches over 2.9 million U.S. monthly people." However, the link to define their terminology is broken and the operation appears to be suffering from hardening of the arteries.

Alexa defines "page views" as...

...the number of pages viewed by site visitors.

My feeling is that Alexa's "people" and Quantcast's "people" both represent "unique" visitors...but I could very well be wrong.

That being said (and believing "Alexa" to be a fairly reputable source), some text quoting (but not defining per se) the traffic statistics would be illuminating and encyclopedic. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Alexa do seem to be regarded as a reliable source, depending on the ranking of the site in question. Due to their sampling procedures smaller sites have less accurate statistics. 1 is reliable, 100,000 and above completely unreliable, so at 2000 or so WND falls right in the bracket where Alexa are said to be best at providing accurate statistics. Weakopedia (talk) 02:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

As you are aware, the subject of Alexa as WP:RS is currently under discussion in WP:RS/N. There has been some additional discussion since your last input and any further thoughts on that topic would be appreciated. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

World Net Daily Sues WHCA

Comments are solicited as to the inclusion of the following text...

On April 13, 2010, WorldNetDaily reported that a "...lawsuit has been filed in Washington accusing the White House Correspondents' Association..." of allegedly failing to designate appropriate 2010 dinner seating accomodations as per an alleged prior arrangement with WorldNetDaily [3].

JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Um, secondary sources. I raise you a lawsuit filed in a court in Trenton New Jersey. --TS 22:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

As cited within the WHCA "Talk", I believe those should be adequate. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:56, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

PolitiFact

I've restored text that was removed on the premise that it was sourced from the "unreliable" PolitiFact. In fact that service is a fact-checking operation run by the St. Petersburg Times and has won a Pulitzer for its work. --TS 22:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

um what the editor meant by the statement, but the source does not fit the statement being made. Politifact critiques one statement they made as false not everything they report. So i see the IPs problem Weaponbb7 (talk) 00:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I've been unable to locate nor does "Politi-fact" link to the purported source of the alleged WND "lie". I would be interested in viewing the "source" both for WP:V and context. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Could have just been a summary of an article, but it doesnt matter for our purposes. Weaponbb7 (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Politi-fact states that the alleged WND "lie" appeared in a purported WND advertisement that was hosted by Human Events. Even were a link provided to the alleged "source", I'm unclear how this allegation, single sourced, would rise to satisfy WP:N. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Jake, its gone from the article Weaponbb7 (talk) 00:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm both aware and concur (pending any further comment) in its removal. However, your statement...

...critiques one statement they made as false...

...assumes a fact that hasn't even been established. I just wanted to clarify both that and subsequent WP:N problems were the source for the "lie" even to become available. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

WND "far right" text

In the recent editing, text was deleted stating that WND had been described as "far right". While the Corsi cite was inappropriate to support that assertion, it doesn't mean the text itself was inappropriate, only that it was now unsupported. I have re-inserted/re-worded the text with a CN tag and moved it to the "Description" section. As I believe I have seen several descriptives of this type in reputable publications, supporting cites shouldn't be too difficult to find. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, WND used to, I believe, describe itself as a "conservative" site. Nowadays it does more than that by associating with e.g. the "Birther" movement, maybe text describing some ideas WND supports would be a descriptive (and easily sourced) way to say that WND is "hard right" (with which I agree). --Dailycare (talk) 20:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

If your proposed additional text has the breadth of RS'ing you suggest, find it, cite it and incorporate it. Simple. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

There. --Dailycare (talk) 22:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I have moved your suggested text from the introduction and incorporated it into the main body. As with much of the remainder of this article, WP:OR issues arise. Can you cite some sourcing suggesting that WND's alleged "association" with an anti-abortion position rises to satisfy WP:UNDUE? JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm ok with the move and have no strong opinion on exactly where in the article the text should go. I added another source for the anti-abortion view. --Dailycare (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The source you have provided is another from WND. That WND is predominantly conservative in its outlook is self-acknowledged and "pro-life" is generally considered to be a more "conservative" position. How does it improve this article by citing a WND position on an issue that is already a given and where (outside of WND) has their position been the subject of other RS consideration?

I also take issue with the use of "birther" in the descriptive. It is a pejorative term and is decidedly POV. Can you suggest an alternative? JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure I agree either that pro-life and anti-abortion are the same thing, or that conservatism necessarily implies either of them. I selected these two items as shorthand for the "far right" expression which is harder to source. I don't know of a completely non-pejorative expression for the "birther" idea, do you? --Dailycare (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The burden of proof lies with the person adding the information. It also is upon us to add only what is verifiable. It may be that WND have a position on abortion, but we don't know that any position they take is worth mentioning here without that appearing in a secondary source. Adding links to WND pieces about abortion is not enough to show that the opinions being expressed are notable.

The source provided does not associate WND with a birther movement, it says that Farah is, which is a big difference. Find a source to say that WND are associated with the birther movement and then include it, or add the information to the article on Farah.

Finally the 'far-right' thing may be citable, but until it has a citation the proper thing to do is move it to the talkpage of the article to await sourcing, which I am doing now. Weakopedia (talk) 23:49, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"WND has been described as "far-right" ."

Hi, I frankly don't see a problem with using WND as a source on WND's own views in the WND article. The wording I originally used did attribute the material (also) to Farah, not just WND. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, the problem is not that they have views, it is which views to report here. For that we need the secondary reliable sources - WND have views about all sorts of things, so for us to pick one of the things they have views about and not the others is giving significance to that one view and not the others. When we pick one viewpoint like that without a reliable source talking about why we should, then it is original research - we may not pick ourselves which views to represent, only report what is in the secondary sources we find. Weakopedia (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I would avoid the term far right which normally refers to extremely reactionary groups that reject democracy, e.g., fascists. The term has been gravely overused in the United States, but really adds nothing to the article. we can find sources for example that the Republican Party has been described as far right. TFD (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that "far right" is probably not a good term to use here as a description, if only because there's no clear line between "right" and "far right", and "far right" could be interpreted as pejorative. It would be less problematic if we could say that a particular source has described them as that though. We could include a sentence along the lines of "WorldNetDaily describes itself as 'conservative', but has been described by (Group X) as a far-right news outlet" if we can find a cite from someone reasonably credible making that assertion. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC).

The 'far-right' bit used to be in the criticism section, but was moved to the description section. If a source was found describing them as far-right it would be most likely of use in the criticism section - I think it would take more than one source to show that they are far-right and include it in their description.

@Lankiveil, there are enough sources describing WND as conservative that it changes slightly the emphasis. We could write something like 'WND has been described as conservative by the media, although some have described them as far-right', rather than WND describe themselves as conservative. My point above is that if there is just one person calling them far-right then that should go in the criticism section, unless maybe it was someone more influential than the sources describing them as conservative. But I agree there is a place for the information if properly sourced. Weakopedia (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

RV User 24.215.150.119

I'm not sure just where to begin addressing the WP:OR problems with this edit. I have invited User:24.215.150.119 to comment here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I corrected some of the issues with OR. I don't typically edit wiki pages, but I felt it important to note that many of WND's claims regarding President Obama's eligibility for office have been completely factually erroneous. I replaced some of the "original research" with sources from Factcheck and Mother Jones. We could probably copy and paste significant parts of the "Obama conspiracy theories" page into this section about WND, because much of that page is about claims made by Farah and other WND columnists.

I felt it important to note that many of WND's claims regarding President Obama's eligibility for office have been completely factually erroneous.

Undoubtedly you do, but you need to find a reliable source that has already made that assertion. Under WP:OR (about which you apparently need to become more familiar), you cannot tie disparate sources together to make a new statement of fact that is not attributable to an already existing reliable source. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

After checking his/her references, I'm not convinced the user's addition constitutes WP:OR on the basis of "analysis or synthesis by Wikipedians of published material." Synthesis is not forbidden except "where the analysis or synthesis advances a position not advanced by any of the sources." The positions stated were indeed not only advanced by the published sources, but in most cases were the central point of the cited articles. There may be some other basis for judging WP:OR, but no hard feelings, JakeInJoisey -- I'm reverting. Rangergordon (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

This is most definitely original research. Original research is not necessarily about putting words in other peoples mouths - the sources cited are fairly represented, the original research part is the attribution of notability to this subject. You should read WP:SYN for the guidelines on this, where it says 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.'.

There are two claims here - the first is sourced, to Mother Jones. I don't know if they are considered a reliable source, but what is in this article does represent what they said (minus the bit about Farrah yet to prove otherwise, that has no source). The second part, however, takes a statement from WND and then a statement from Factcheck about 'birthers', and tries to tie the two together in a way that isn't represented by any source. If Factcheck had said 'WND' instead of 'birthers' then we could discuss whether Factcheck is a reliable enough source to establish notability of these claims, but as it is Factcheck didn't mention WND so adding a general criticism they made about 'birthers' is undue synthesis. We shouldn't put words in Factchecks mouth, they are capable of mentioning WND by name if they wish.

I will trim out the synthesis and leave others to the question of notability. Weakopedia (talk) 11:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a "synthesis" is not inherent in what remains and, as you have pointed out, a question of WP:UNDUE naturally follows the juxtaposition of sourcing. It amounts to an argument on an aspect of the birth certificate issue which is more appropriate to Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. WND, after all, doesn't "own" that issue and its position on that issue is already well demonstrated in the section.

As to "Mother Jones", it is a partisan source "rooted in liberal and progressive political values." That "partisan" character, I'd suggest, mandates the provision of additional RS sourcing for anything they might have to offer. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Nicely trimmed, User:Weakopedia. And good catch on the weasel-words, User:JakeInJoisey.

Certainly any reasonable person would grant that Mother Jones (magazine) has a political slant -- just as WND does. So, if MJ is characterized not entirely WP:RS on the basis of its "'partisan' character," then of course the same standard should apply to WND, correct? Rangergordon (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. If Wikipedia is to be truly encyclopedic and something more than a medium for disseminating ideological "spin", I believe that inclusion of content from ANY source widely recognized as "biased" or "partisan" in their offerings should be subject to increased Wikipedia mandates for additional RS just as the increased sourcing for biased content is POLICY-elevated for BLP considerations. That "POLICY" mandate, as I understand it, is to insure that content, if it is to be incorporated from a "biased" source, still has some foundation in "fact" (even "Fact" about "Opinion") and is WIDELY reflected in additional RS sourcing. For proposed content falling under this type of consideration, WP:RS and WP:UNDUE are, even moreso than for accepted WP:RS sourcing, joined at the hip and inseparable.

This "quasi-RS" status, however, has become problematical with the increasing stratification and ideological politicization of just about any subject deemed to be susceptible to such treatment and the proliferation of ideologically inspired media/web entities designed specifically to both explore and exploit those susceptibilities (see "Media Matters", "Newsbusters", "Keith Olbermann", "Sean Hannity" for starters). This has lead to the a propensity for the "coatracking" of inherently biased and trivial, non-encyclopedic content that is so prevalent in these articles today. No answer for that I guess, other than a change in perspective for editors deeply engaged in the dissemination of "spin" and/or those just as engaged in seeing it kept at bay. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I don't think that having a 'political slant' makes them a non-RS. Most newspapers and media stations are described as 'left leaning' or 'traditionally supportive of party x' or 'liberal' or whatever, but we still use them. I don't think that Mother Jones is generally thought of as innacurate or false in it's reporting, so I think we can use Mother Jones but that we should attribute anything we use by them to them. Like for example we could say 'according to the liberal news magazine MJ' or something like that. A political slant doesn't mean we can't use it, it just means we have to be a bit more careful!

Jake has made a good point tho - what is left after the trimming may be verifiable, but it doesn't fit well where it is. The information is probably better incorporated into the bit about Obama directly above it, if it stays. Like Jake says, MJ may be a reliable source but we should be careful of using them as our only source for any controversial claims, and make sure we have other sources to back them up and provide the notability we need for inclusion on Wikipedia. Weakopedia (talk) 07:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Tags

Are the neutrality and accuracy tags on the criticism section still warranted? Weakopedia (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

While I still have problems with some article content, unless those tags are being actively discussed, I believe they should be removed...as well as the RFC tag within this talk section. JakeInJoisey (talk) 11:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Replaced multiple tags with single tag in support of "Dispute" section below. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

DISPUTE - "Criticism" - Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

After having viewed a source (You Tube: video time=1:19/2:24) for Keith Olbermann's "Worst Person" reaction to Joseph Farah's commentary of Dec 20, 2008 [[4]], it is clear that Olbermann, himself, was confused as to the document to which Farah had referred (the "Obama Website" graphic, NOT the "FactCheck.org" graphic) in his (Farah's) commentary (which I explained in some detail above). It also appears that Farah, himself, may not have recognized Olbermann's confusion in constructing his (Farah's) rebuttal to Olbermann's "Worst Person" comments.

For the record, here is a transcript I made of Olbermann's comments which I believe to be an accurate presentation...

But our winner, Joseph Farah, the proprietor of WorldNetDaily. He is now denying that his lunatic-fringe, right-wing website verified the president-elect's birth certificate and, in so doing, destroyed an industry of conspiracy theorists who believe that Obama is from Kenya or, possibly, the moon. He says, quote "Nothing could be further from the truth". He adds "He did offer up to forgery experts a facsimile of a partial birth certificate. None of them could report conclusively that the electronic image was authentic or that it was a forgery.

Yeah (ed. in sarcastic tone). Joseph Farah's WorlNetDaily on August 23rd of last year posted and copyrighted this article by its guy, Drew Zahn. Quote (ed. and displayed in a graphic): "A separate investigation into Obama's birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic." ed. link

Oops. That would make Mr. Farah of WorldNetDaily not just a bald-faced liar but one whose claim is easily disproved by his own website. Well, why do you think they call it the lunatic fringe.

Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily, today's "worst person in the world".

This presents somewhat of an interesting conundrum in terms of WP:V and WP:UNDUE. While Olbermann's comments might be citable under WP:V, his now obvious error (and subsequent reports of those error-based comments) was neither challenged by Farah nor corrected (that I can find) anywhere else. Perhaps that may be attributed to a relative lack of notability for Olbermann's "Worst Person" comments in the first place.

IMHO, while legitimate arguments might be (and have been) raised as to Olbermann's "stand-alone" RS status under WP:UNDUE, this error-based commentary is even more troubling and I don't believe it rises to satisfy WP:V and WP:UNDUE criteria and its inclusion constitutes WP:POV.

Comments? JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)