Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

NOTICE: Per the probation sanctions logged here
this article is currently under a 1RR editing restriction.

NPOV tag, again

As near as I can tell, HiP re-added the tag purely because V called him an SPA (bases on HiP's comments). This is clearly wrong; also, again as far as I can see, HiP's reasoning has been rejected by numerous editors. so I've re-removed the tag William M. Connolley (talk) 08:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Has the POV dispute been resolved? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:19, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Please state the nature of the POV dispute in two sentences or less, and I will reply to your question. Remember, the burden is on the editor adding the tag, not removing it. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

See the other section with the word "NPOV" in the title, which editors were directed to in the text of the tag by way of explanation, and which WMC apparently missed. I will be readding the tag now. WMC, you are not to remove the tag until the dispute is resolved as officially stated. "I don't like it" is not an argument.--Heyitspeter (talk) 15:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed that this page is on 1-revert. I'll readd the tag after 24-hours are up, though I encourage another editor to do it themselves when they see this. It requires only an undo of WMC's most recent. Cheers.--Heyitspeter (talk) 15:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

And, I'll be removing the tag. Heyitspeter, the links you provide in your above reply do not answer the question I asked at all, and in fact, have nothing to do with this topic. It's entirely possible that you made a mistake and added the wrong links, but you need to stop threatening to hold this article hostage because you think it deserves a POV tag. That's not how we edit Wikipedia, and if you persist, you could be blocked. To recap, the person adding the tag has the burden of proof. If you can't answer a simple question about why you feel the need to tag this article, then the tag obviously doesn't belong. Viriditas (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

You are threatening to make a direct violation of WP:HEAR. It isn't threatening and is of course actionable. Happy editing. I will not be commenting further in this section.--Heyitspeter (talk) 15:39, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The dispute has obviously not been resolved. I am restoring the POV tag. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What dispute? Please provide what, specifically, violates NPOV. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Please provide what, specifically, violates NPOV. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 15:40, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

You can find my suggested rewrite of the lead here.[6] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

"I'd like to rewrite the lede" != POV tag William M. Connolley (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What he said. "Please provide what, specifically, violates NPOV." Hipocrite (talk) 16:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Weight isn't being assigned accordding to proportion presented by reliable sources. Now, I've given you the reason along with my suggested fix. What more do you want? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed the problem by removing who orchestrated the scandal. I hope that allays your concerns. Hipocrite (talk) 16:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope. How does that even address my concerns? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Weight on what? If you want to tag this article, it should be clear why William M. Connolley (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Weight to the critics. There's no explanation of what there claims are in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Which claims from critics need mention in the lede, specifically? Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 16:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Claims that climate scientists:

1. Colluded to withhold scientific information
2. Interfered with the peer-review process to prevent dissenting scientific papers from being published
3. Deleted e-mails and raw data to prevent data being revealed under the Freedom of Information Act
4. Manipulated data to make the case for global warming appear stronger than it is A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you provide sources, and the current status of those charges? How should we include charges that are now debunked? Would you like a seperate paragraph in the lede detailing each of the charges, and then how those charges were debunked? You agree it would obviously be a violation of NPOV to say "skeptics charged that scientists colluded to withhold scientific information," without also including the sourced fact that "charges that scientists colluded to withold scientific information were rejected by XY and Z, right? Hipocrite (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Per H. Those claims have all been examined and refuted by investigation. They are part of the *history* of the incident, but not part of its current state William M. Connolley (talk) 16:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

"Could you provide sources, and the current status of those charges?"

Sure, but give me some time to find them. I'll get them to you within the next day or so. Is that acceptable to you?

"How should we include charges that are now debunked?"

I think that should be included as well.

"Would you like a seperate paragraph in the lede detailing each of the charges"

No, just a single sentence would be fine.

"and then how those charges were debunked?"

That should be there, too.

"You agree it would obviously be a violation of NPOV to say "skeptics charged that scientists colluded to withhold scientific information," without also including the sourced fact that "charges that scientists colluded to withold scientific information were rejected by XY and Z, right?"

Yes, I do. We should include both POVs and assign weight based on their prominence in third-party reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm waiting on your sources. It's a shame that you couldn't work this out on your own - I mean, who would ever propose an entire change that merely reflected their own personal PoV on a contentious page like this and expect it to reach consensus? How many times do people need to realize that you have to insert a little of something you don't want and a little of something you do want? Hipocrite (talk) 17:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite, you've been editing this article for months. I assumed that you were already familiar with the article topic by now. In any case, I will honor your request and provide sources within the next day or two. I hope that we can work together to resolve this dispute. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Given the fact that the claims have all been refuted, what exactly would be the purpose of putting more emphasis on them in the lead? We are not back in December 2009 when the full facts weren't yet known. The verdicts are in and the scientists involved have been given a clean bill of health, as Lord Oxburgh put it. If there's one thing we mustn't do with this article, it's give a false impression about the status of the now-refuted claims. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Because this is an article about a scandal. It behooves us to explain what all the fuss was about. Also, the charges were largely discredited, but not completely. The FOI charges turned out to be legit, and there's still an charge against Mann that remains outstanding. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

A fabricated scandal with unsustainable allegations, it behooves us to take more care with these blp issues. The FOI charges turned out to be misrepresentation of an informal briefing, and the current investigations into FOIA issues have not yet reported. As for the "charge" against Mann, that report certainly seems to have got lost in the long grass. Presumption of innocence remains. . . dave souza, talk 19:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Everything will be sourced to third-party reliable sources with a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, and in strict accordance to our policy on biographical information on living persons. But if you spot any specific BLP issues, please let me know. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What sources? Also note that incorrect claims must be shown in the context of their refutation to meet the high NPOV standards required on blp issues. As I'm sure you know. . . dave souza, talk 23:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Please, give me some time to find them. With the ArbCom case and everything, it'll take a day or two. Yes, absolutely the claims should be should in context with their refutation. BTW, it looks a recent edit is being sourced to a blog. That probably needs to be taken out. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:21, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The Gaggle

I really wish you'd read WP:RS, specifically the part that reads ""Blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs. Some news outlets host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." Hipocrite (talk) 01:28, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have read WP:RS many times and I'm one of the regular contributors to the Reliable sources noticeboard so I am familiar with this guideline. In any case, is this blog subject to the news outlet's full editorial control? If so, please state your evidence. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

(a) Apparently current practice is to assume as much; (b) this is not a BLP issue, so that's beside the point. Guettarda (talk) 01:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Newsweek publishes official announcements on the gaggle - see [7]. That makes it quite clear that their official blog is under their editorial control. Hipocrite (talk) 01:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, which part of that link supports the argument that this blog is under their full editorial control? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The part where they publish official statements on the blog. What part of that is hard to understand? What leads you to believe it's not under their official control, exactly? Do you apply this assume-not-official stance to all blogs in all articles you follow? Could you show me some examples of you suggesting other blogs are not under editorial control? Hipocrite (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they issued an official statement about a blog. I'm not sure what that has to do about whether their blogs are under their full editorial control. Can you please just answer my question: which part of that link supports the argument that this blog is under their full editorial control? Yes, I do assume that all blogs are not under the full editorial control unless evidence is provided otherwise. You can check my contributions to the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article if you want evidence. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No, they released an official statement ON the blog. Please read the links I provide for you, in full, thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 01:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

But I don't see where it states that blogs are under their full editorial control. Can you please point me to the statement where it's stated that it's under their full editorial control? I've asked you three times now (this makes four) and so far, you have failed to do so. BTW, you are now citing a blog as evidence that a blog is reliable. The standards for reliability are really starting to drop, methinks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand - you insist that I provide a statement from newsweek, not on the blog, that says "the blog is under our full editorial control?" I suggest you wait for results from RSN - please don't disrupt that process. I'm not jumping through your hoops anymore. Hipocrite (talk) 02:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to argue that this blog falls under the full editorial control, then you should provide evidence. OTOH, if you think that WP:RS is wrong, I suggest that you take this up with the editors at WP:RS. If you can get the editors there to change the guideline, please let us know. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:15, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:NEWSBLOG applies. . . dave souza, talk 07:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite:

• You asked what the POV dispute was about and I've provided an explanation about the weight issue.[8]
• You asked what specific claims I think should be added to the lead and I've given you a list of the specific claims.[9]
• I've also provided my suggested fix.[10]
• Now, you've also asked for me to provide sources and here they are.[11][12][13][14][15]

I've done everything you've asked of me. Is there any other information that I can provide for you? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes - you could read what has already been said to you. The point is that newspaper reports from back in November, or those that pre-date the reviews findings, are badly out of date. So you need to review your list of newly provided sources and remove those that pre-dates the inquiries. On a quick scan, they all fail William M. Connolley (talk) 11:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Those articles are all old. I thought you were going to put each of the claims in context - to note that all of them have been rejected by further findings. Are you not doing that - above, you agreed it would obviously be a violation of NPOV to say "skeptics charged that scientists colluded to withhold scientific information," without also including the sourced fact that "charges that scientists colluded to withold scientific information were rejected by XY and Z - but you only provided the charges, and your proposed change only adds the charges to the lede, unless I misread something. Hipocrite (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't even make any sense. Are you saying that the critics didn't make these charges? If not, why were there investigations? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if you might consider choosing your words somewhat more carefully, as well as reading mine somewhat more carefully. Yes, it makes sense. The point is that newspaper reports written *then* don't really describe the situation *now*. Without checking, I would guess that our article on WWII doesn't have in the lede stuff from 1939 newspapers about how maybe there might be trouble ahead. You see the point, I hope William M. Connolley (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, fine. Provide reliable sources about the article topic that don't explain the article topic. I've provided my sources, now you provide yours. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you renegging on your statement that merely including the charges, without including the resolution of the charges would be a violation of NPOV? Hipocrite (talk) 11:55, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not. Your suggestion is fine with me. Both the accusation and the refutations should be included. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you intentionally proposing edits that fail NPOV, then, or are you just providing a framework for someone else to fill out when they get around to it? Hipocrite (talk) 12:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not. The refutations are already in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that if you're going to include specific charges in the article, it's imperitive that right after said charges are noted, it's also noted that they were all rejected. I mean, it's like saying "Timothy Evans was accused of murdering his daughter. He was convicted of the crime. (many paragraphs about the trial, his biography). Timothy Evans was actually innocent." You might want to read Timothy Evans to see how we deal with charges that are later proved wrong. Hipocrite (talk) 12:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggestion with the caveat that the charges were largely rejected. The FOA violations turned out to be accurate and there's still an outstanding charge against Mann. Can we please write this article in a neutral way? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't speak for your ability to follow NPOV. I've tried to include the information about largely rejected charges in the lede. Hipocrite (talk) 12:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

@ A Quest For Knowledge, your assertion that "The FOA violations turned out to be accurate" is badly wrong, the serious accusations against individuals have been rejected and the case against the university is still under investigation. The outstanding charge against Mann has been presented with a clear understanding that he'd previously been cleared of similar accusations. Please read the article and relevant sources more carefully. . dave souza, talk 17:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe this New York Observer article settles the question definitively, as it describes the editorial regime for "The Gaggle": [16] It's edited by Newsweek's senior editors. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The Gaggle - the link in the New York Observer article is broken. Q Science (talk) 23:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The NY Observer article is nearly four years old, so evidently "The Gaggle" changed its URL in the meantime. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

So how do you know it is still accurate? Might they not have changed their approach within the past 4 years? This assumes, of course, that your interpretation of what the referenced article actually states is accurate to begin with. That's not entirely clear either. --Rush's Algore (talk) 01:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't be absurd. The article is crystal clear. The blog was established by the magazine's senior editors. It's written by the reporters and edited by the editors, just like the rest of the content. There is no reason why that arrangement might have changed and no indication that it has. If you genuinely doubt that the arrangement no longer holds, as opposed to bad-faith wikilawyering, the onus is on you to find some evidence of that. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:37, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree The Gaggle is a RS, but I object to calling it Newsweek and am properly identifying it in the lede. Yopienso (talk) 09:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC) (Or it could be reverted back to "Newsweek's blog." Yopienso (talk) 09:17, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The link to a grounded skein was a bit misleading, and we don't have an article yet so I clarified it more informatively. Alternatively, we could go back to "Sharon Begley of Newsweek" . . dave souza, talk 09:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

@ScottyBerg Thank you for moving this item to a more appropriate place. I have reverted back to "Newsweek's blog" since that's what it is. (See my post just above of 9 July.) Not accurate to say "Newsweek magazine." No need to go to all the detail of "Newsweek's online blog, The Gaggle." Just saying "The Gaggle" doesn't put the weight of Newsweek behind it. --Yopienso (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

It's the magazine's official blog, written by its regular reporters, hosted on its website and edited by Newsweek's senior editors. In what way does this not have the weight of Newsweek behind it? -- ChrisO (talk) 21:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

It does have the weight of Newsweek behind it--see my note of 9 July--but if we just write, "The Gaggle says..." the general WP reader will not notice that. Therefore, the most concise and accurate way to identify this source is to call it "Newsweek's blog." That term distinguishes it from the print magazine but shows it is under Newsweek's aegis. --Yopienso (talk) 21:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

@WMC: Please self-revert. (You missed the apostrophe, anyway.) --Yopienso (talk) 21:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Since today is D-Day

Actually, I just happened to be doing some work on this subject when I discovered that today is an important day, and I have updated myself (somewhat) on the two preceding reports. First, I would suggest that the Select Committee's report ought to have an article of its own. Perhaps the Muir Russell report being published will accentuate this need. Also, as I read the Guardian article which currently references 6 items in our article, I understood that the Select Committee's report came with a considerable caveat lector being that "MPs admitted that their enquiry into the emails was limited in its scope as only a single evidence session was held and the committee's deliberations had to be rushed through ahead of the general election." Skeptics have also latched onto this weakness. Should our article not mention the cursory manner in which the parliamentary committee conducted its investigation? I cannot see any allusion to this at present. __meco (talk) 10:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It's out now - [17]. Nothing too unexpected, pretty much in line with the other reviews. StuartH (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the update [18]. Looks fair eough so far. After this has settled I'd say the whole article ought to be up for whatever re-org is needed to move this from a current controversy to a past-tense kerfuffle William M. Connolley (talk) 12:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It's being treated by the American media as a full vindication[19]. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Criticism by skeptics

This article is totally lacking in any kind of neutrality. Reporting one side of an ongoing debate is not NPOV. I suggest asking at ClimateAudit for some help, if you genuinely can't see that there are serious problems with these reports. The Commons Select Committee member largely responsible for structuring the inquiries has complained about the 'sleight of hand' involved in the way they've been carried out - see the BBC iPlayer for Today. Whether or not there has been a whitewash, there is certainly a debate over it. 94.170.107.247 (talk) 04:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

I've just taken out the recently-added "whitewash" stuff. If we need to cover that it should be in a properly balanced way William M. Connolley (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The criticism needs to be mentioned, but not as a separate section with "whitewash" in the header. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

And definitely not as a straight copyvio from the Times article, which the original addition was.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

After nearly half a dozen serious investigations by competent bodies have unanimously found that the allegations of dishonesty and manipulation are unsustainable, we'd need an exceptionally competent body, indeed one that was beyond reproach, to be used as a source for any claim to the contrary. The usual contrarians may grumble, but those chaps are very far from the mainstream. They've had their fun, and now the facts have been established by some of the most reliable sources we could ask for.

Criticism by the likes of Lindzen, Storch, Zorita, even Judith Curry, should however be taken seriously where it is based in climate science or scientific ethics. What I'm arguing against is simply application of undue weight to the understandably disappointed parties who raised or promoted the allegations of dishonesty. Most of those claims were obviously unlikely to prevail from the start, though it's always a good idea to investigate the facts in such cases, as was done here by five distinct bodies. Tasty monster (=TS ) 20:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

That's the unfortunate thing about conspiracy theorists. There's no such thing as vindication, only a wider conspiracy. StuartH (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Please Tony and Stuart, no editorializing, just make suggestions on how to summarize the new report into the article. Cla68 (talk) 20:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Whoever did the summary paragraph forgot to mention the negative findings that the panel made, which I added. I think it now completely summarizes the report. Cla68 (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The complaint made in the petition that initially asked for these inquiries was that the researchers acted in a partisan way. As far as I remember there was no allegation of lies or manipulation of data, only that researchers who were known to be partisan could allow this partisanship to affect their judgement when deciding the best way to handle data. The best that can be said is that the report cleared them of accusations that were not being generally made and failed to investigate or clear them of the accusations that were being made. This is just like the WMD inquiries ... Blair was always "proved" innocent by each and every inquiry, but the vast majority of the public still held the view that Blair like Jones had not been cleared. 85.211.162.77 (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey all. I didn't realize this till halfway into my attempt to edit the NY times article info into the main page, but it's already included in the last section on the page, including the negative findings. Best,--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Weighting Independent Climate Change Email Review

I note with dismay that the Independent Climate Change Email Review appears to include editors from both sides choosing what parts are notable. Reviewing the reliable secondary sources on the matter, we have [20]. I have reweighted this section to match the weight provided by the NYT. Hipocrite (talk) 21:04, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

In the interest of clarity, this is what you've done. While we look it over it'd be great if you could retract your accusation of WP:OR, which displayed confusion over the content of that policy and violated WP:AGF.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

You take everything so personally. You'll note that I removed cherry picked quotes from both sides. Hipocrite (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It felt personal. You reverted an edit I had just made per WP:OR(?), where the edit was explicitly cited by the NY times article you link to in this section.

I think it's best practice to admit that one has made an edit due to the belief that the edit was an improvement, rather than hide behind policy that probably doesn't have something to say about it. The latter can throw people off.

In any case, while I don't see your edits as improving weight (it's still about half "they think the CRU are awesome" and half "they think the CRU fucked up" and mostly paraphrased the previous), I think they're alright. I vote keep unless anyone else has any objections.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I do think "commissioned by the University of East Anglia" should replace "announced in December 2009," but let's see if other editors have an opinion on that.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd note that my reversion of your edit was due only to an edit conflict. But, please, take it personally. Hipocrite (talk) 21:24, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

(ps) I was about to revert back in your edit but couldn't find in the NYT article where it mentions it was comissioned by the UEA. Could you point that out? Found it.Hipocrite (talk) 21:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh cool! Thanks for adding that! :)--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Hipocrite's most recent edit is a step in the right direction. The OR claims are without merit, and vindicating findings of the review have been excised for little to no reason. As time progresses, we should be including third-party sources, but picking one third-party source and claiming it's the benchmark for due weight isn't the right way to go, particularly if inconvenient findings in the article are removed anyway.

(ec)If the removal was accidental due to an edit conflict, the material should be added back in. StuartH (talk) 21:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Is there another source I'm missing? If there is another weighting we can use to evaluate, as opposed to editors digging into the primary sourced report to find quotes they like, let's use that. Hipocrite (talk) 21:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The "rigour and honesty" quote was in the NYT article, and there are refs which are already used which address the other concerns (e.g. both the peer review and available data statements are found in [21]). I understand that we should be using third-party sources rather than the report itself, and that there's no rush to include things as if wikipedia were a news outlet, but both the report itself and most news sources lean much more heavily towards vindication and we should reflect that. StuartH (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

After reading the report, I seriously doubt that too many secondary sources will use words like "vindication" to describe its findings. Phrases like, "mostly cleared" are more likely. Cla68 (talk) 22:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The just-published Independent leading article for today: "Climate change science is vindicated" [22]. I hope you didn't put money on that prediction! -- ChrisO (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it says "Climate change science is vindicated". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:14, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Cla68, you may not remember this now but Lord Oxburgh has already declared them "squeaky clean", so it's not as if we needed an extra reason to describe this comprehensive vindication by five separate investigative panels for what it is. Tasty monster (=TS ) 23:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Today's report did not find them "sqeaky clean." As far as this article is concerned, we just report what the report says and then report any further fallout from this incident, which I believe there will be for some time to come. Cla68 (talk) 01:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

"which I believe there will be" Boys and girls, can you say WP:CRYSTAL? I knew you could.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:10, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, there will be plenty more fallout, just not fallout the "skeptics" will be comfortable with. But back to the article... StuartH (talk) 01:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Stuart, you appear to be taking this a little personally. Remember, Wikipedia doesn't take sides. Here's some aftermath I think we should watch:

• Whether Penn State takes any further action on the remaining ethics concern on Mann which the first inquiry tabled.
• The results (if any) from the police investigation into the theft of the emails and documents.
• What organizational and procedural changes East Anglia makes, if any, in addition to changing Jones' job duties. I imagine they will add additional oversight and auditing procedures to their FOIA response process, but that's just speculation on my part.
• Future reports on if the Climate Audit crew or anyone else has any further problems with their requests to the CRU or Mann for the data from their research so their results can be replicated.
• What effect this has, if any, on the peer review and drafting process for the IPCC's next four-year report.
• Whether the CRU follows the Royal Statistical organization's advice and uses some of their grant money to hire a full-time statistician for their research team.

That's all I can think of right now. Cla68 (talk) 04:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

A few days ago, Penn State released a second report which said that "... there is no substance to the allegation against Dr. Michael E. Mann ..." [23] This is already in the article. Cardamon (talk) 09:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Check that one off. Cla68 (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Cla68, you can also cross off the question of whether the Climate Audit people will have problems replicating the CRU data. The recently released report found that any competent person should have no problem producing such a replication--they themselves commissioned such a replication and it was done entirely from public sources within two days with no help from the CRU. See Section 6.4. Whatever the Climate Audit people were doing, it wasn't an honest attempt by competent individuals to replicate the temperature data. Whatever problems they may have in replication has absolutely nothing to do with the CRU.

You can also write off any direct effect on the drafting process (though obviously the IPCC has continued to make incremental improvements and the AR5 process will be better than the AR4 process, which was better than TAR, and so on). The Muir Russell report found that the CRU did not adversely influence the content of AR4 (not at all surprising).

But I would like to add the following:

• Whether the ICO will give guidance, as recommended in Paragraph 34, Section 6.10, on how to handle the repetition of orchestrated campaigns of FOIA requests that have the capacity to overwhelm the resources of small research departments.

In my opinion this would be as important as the anticipated move by UAE to respond to the stinging criticism of its compliance with the relevant legislation (FOIA and other acts). --TS 22:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

--TS 22:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

• I don't believe the FOIA regulations make any allowance for government or government-funded agencies to abdicate their public-reporting responsibilities based on limitations in their staffs. If they don't have enough staff to respond to FOIA requests, then they'll need to use more of the grant money they receive to hire more FOIA staff or else ask for more funding to do so. As far as this article is concerned, we should watch to see if East Anglia does this and if anyone has any further issues with receiving timely and complete responses to their FOIA requests. Cla68 (talk) 22:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Your beliefs are irrelevant, Cla, please find proper sources rather than speculating. . dave souza, talk 22:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm just pointing out issues we should watch out for. After all this, if anyone in the future has any more problems extracting the data from CRU's staff, I think we'll probably hear about it in the media fairly rapidly. Cla68 (talk) 03:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Phil Jones

The current version of the article incorrectly states that Phil Jones has resumed his former post. As I understand it Jones has been appointed to a newly created post of Director of Research, leaving him free to run the scientific work while allowing the University to fulfil its administrative responsibilities without overburdening the academics. Tasty monster (=TS ) 23:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

How's this [24]? Comments/objections? StuartH (talk) 00:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I was just about to speculate that the university would probaby make some organizational changes in order to be able to show the UK and US government agencies who control the grant money that they had taken steps to resolve the issues highlighted in today's report. It looks like this may be one of them. Cla68 (talk) 01:05, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that the US government controls a significant amount of the UEA's grant money... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

That's not what I've read. I read that it was the US Department of Energy which funded CRU's development of the code used for its research. Isn't that one of the reasons why so many of the Climategate emails cc scientists working for the DOE? Cla68 (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't sound likely. Perhaps you ought to find out before adding any more speculation? William M. Connolley (talk) 12:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The FOIA file contains an excel file of grants Phil Jones had received between 1990 and 2006. Total £2730742 of which £937032 (34%) was from the US Department of Energy.91.153.115.15 (talk) 13:14, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The UAE has a staff of about 3000 people. Assuming a conservative UKP 100000 per employee per year, their yearly budget should be somewhere around UKP 300 million. 30% soft money gives 100 million per year, give or take an order of magnitude. So we talk about less than 0.1% of the grant money. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The CRU (Climatic Research Unit) is a part of the UEA (University of East Anglia). Phil Jones is a person working for the CRU. 34% of grants to him (a person) is a lot. But as you correctly point out this is nothing compared to the UEA total budget.91.153.115.15 (talk) 13:43, 8 July 2010(UTC)

CORRECTION: I missed a few grants. It's 43% of all his grants (£1 168 587)91.153.115.15 (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's some sketchy documentation:

• From a US Senate committee (Yes, Inhofe, but I must assume it's reliable, being under the aegis of the US govt.--I'm hoping that no-one there realizes I have a US DoE grant and have had this (with Tom W.) for the last 25 years.Phil Jones, CRU)
• From the CRU itself: Since its inception in 1972 until 1994, the only scientist who had a guaranteed salary from ENV/UEA funding was the Director. Every other research scientist relied on 'soft money' - grants and contracts - to continue his or her work. Since 1994, the situation has improved and now three of the senior staff are fully funded by ENV/UEA and two others have part of their salaries paid. The fact that CRU has and has had a number of long-standing research staff is testimony to the quality and relevance of our work. Such longevity in a research centre, dependent principally on soft money, in the UK university system is probably unprecedented. The number of CRU research staff as of the end of July 2007 is 15 (including those fully funded by ENV/UEA). At the bottom of the page is a long, alphabetized list of donors, including BP and Shell, the Sultanate of Oman, the United States Department of Energy, and the United States Environmental Protection Agency.
• Also from the CRU is this list of recent grants, which includes £99,785 from the US DOE. It's impossible to ascertain from this list what other US funds may have been indirectly given by means of donations or grants to a larger fund. (I don't see, for example, anything from the EPA, although the CRU acknowledges their funding.)
• The previous page from the CRU claimed 15 staff members in 2007. This apparently more recent page claims 30. It's misleading to count the 3000 UAE staff, since we are dealing only with the CRU. The Unit undertakes both pure and applied research, sponsored almost entirely by external contracts and grant from academic funding councils, government departments, intergovernmental agencies, charitable foundations, non-governmental organisations, commerce and industry.
• It would be helpful if the IP editor would provide a link to a reliable source. --Yopienso (talk) 14:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The file is: "FOIA/documents/pdj_grant_since1990" in the leaked FOIA.zip ... and yes this is original research but I just wanted to deflect obvious bullshit.91.153.115.15 (talk) 17:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

{Outdent}This link may be easier to access. I'm reading it slightly differently. I see 8 grants from the US Dept. of Energy totaling over a million pounds received by Jones and/or Wigley from 1995-2001 and in 2004. As I said above, I don't see the grants given by the US EPA or by many others on the list of acknowledged donors. Please don't construe this as criticism of Jones or the CRU; this is how projects are funded. I do object to denial of the facts, though.--Yopienso (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks IP and Yopienso, I think you've settled the argument here. The CRU receives significant funding from the US government. Cla68 (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Significant compared to what? £1m over seven years is a pretty small amount - only about £140k per year. What percentage is that of CRU's total funding? -- ChrisO (talk) 21:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Jones has received £13.7 million in grant money since 1990 (according to that spreadsheet), so it's about 8-10%. NW (Talk) 22:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. You are right. I divided by the last cell in the column instead of the sum of the column.91.153.115.15 (talk) 04:23, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

And like I said before, a good number of the emails contain correspondence between DOE scientists and the CRU-associated personnel. In my opinion, East Anglia is probably assuring the DOE, as well as the others they receive funding from, that they have taken steps to rectify the FOIA issues. If any of this is ever mentioned in a RS, which I believe it will be once more books start coming out about it in a few months time, we can put it in the article. Cla68 (talk) 22:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Has this stuff been discussed in reliable secondary sources? If not, what do we know about its significance? This worries me a bit because it seems to follow directly from a statement in which Cla68 openly stated that he was engaging in speculation. --TS 22:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

At this point, we don't know its significance. One of the strong criticisms from reviewers was a lack of transparency; this seems to extend to the entire University, as a password is required to access budget information. (Try clicking on anything to the left.) I'm somewhat familiar with UCLA, who gives easy online public access to its budget. (Am I seeing the British stiff upper lip? Or just being an impertinent Yankee?) Here's the most recent list of grants I can find, in which the US Dept. of Energy gave approx. 6% of the funding. Maintaining a modern, updated website seems to be the least of the CRU's worries. But since we don't have everything together on one page, we can only say the US govt. helps fund the CRU. We can be sure (or at least reasonably presume) much more money than what shows on these charts has been granted, but we can only speculate about the percentage of overall funding the US govt. provides. Speculation has no place here.

Today, CRU is still dependent upon research grant income to maintain the size and breadth of our research and student communities. The European Commission of the European Union (EU) provides the largest fraction of our research income under the Environment and Climate Change Programme. Since the mid-1990s, CRU has co-ordinated 9 EU research projects and been a partner on 16 others within the 4th, 5th and 6th Framework Programmes. Although EU funding is very important, we also endeavour to maintain the diverse pattern of funding reflected by the research described in this "history of CRU" and in the list of Acknowledgements below.

My conclusion: This is adequately dealt with on the Climatic Research Unit page. The only reason it would belong here is because the spreadsheet was part of the stolen emails. --Yopienso (talk) 23:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

BY the way, Cla68, I hope you're not referring above, when you refer to "books", to books by cranks and whatnot. We've had enough of that nonsense on other articles. --TS 22:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Tony, any book used in this article will be in compliance with our RS policy, whether or not any of us feel the author may or may not qualify as a crank. If any of us disagree with the truthiness of an author's opinion on this incident, we can insist on attribution in the text. Remember, we don't take sides on this issue. Cla68 (talk) 22:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

As you've already been reminded, Cla, our Verifiability policy requires careful evaluation of the reliability and suitability of sources, and RS isn't a policy. Remember, we don't give undue weight to fringe pov pushing. . . dave souza, talk 22:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Dave is correct to interpret my statement as referring to due weight. Handling opinions from dubious sources can be done, but it must be done with care. Taking facts from dubious sources must not be done. This is well established on Wikipedia. Cla68's comment on "truthiness" has nothing to do with the matter, and indeed the problem with using dodgy sources is that they do not handle the primary source material in a straightforward manner but tend to use it to enhance their inner agenda. We'll stick to secondary sources that have a reputation for accuracy--and that applies separately and severally to publisher, author and work and in the context of the author's competence with the subject matter. Dan Brown's opinion on sausage recipes, and Dan Brown's handbook on arc welding techniques, are entirely different from Dan Brown's guide to writing a best-selling thriller. --TS 23:11, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Several of you posted while I was writing. Feel free to move my post down if you wish. --Yopienso (talk) 23:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure that when the books start coming out, and I imagine that the respective authors will take different sides on the story, that we'll work together in the spirit of collaboration, cooperation, and compromise and that we'll find a way to include all their opinions in the article in a fair and balanced way. Cla68 (talk) 00:11, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a mistaken belief in some quarters that we're supposed to be stenographers, mindlessly copying and pasting from anything that's been printed no matter how fringey or disreputable the source. This is not how it works, as Tony rightly points out. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think you're presenting a strawman there, Chris, but please explain what you feel our role is here. Cla68 (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

It's best to assume good faith and not dismiss other editors' concerns as a strawman. While of course I can't speak for Chris, my assumption would be that both you and he would agree that our role here is as set out in WP:5P. . . dave souza, talk 04:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, and the point I was making is simply that we have to exercise judgement about which sources we use rather than mindlessly copying whatever's been published. A book by a non-scientist that presents a fringe viewpoint is a much poorer source than, say, a peer-reviewed academic work by an expert in the field. Both would be "books that have come out", as Cla68 puts it, but only one would be substantially reliable. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking academic books are not peer reviewed. However, most academic books / book chapters are written by experts in their field who typically have had the bulk of the books/chapters content previously published in peer-reviewed journals. The authors can in theory (and practice) pad the content with previously unpublished material. Articles, in good journals, are the gold standard. Anyone can write a book and get it published.91.153.115.15 (talk) 10:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Information Commissioner decision

This was done again - here Rumping interprets a primary source. This is not how article are written - we don't select which parts of a primary source should be included - instead, we rely on secondary sources to evaluate primary sources. Hipocrite (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This was deleted from the article[25]. I think it is a continuation of events described in the previous paragraph. If it is an inaccurate summary of what was said, perhaps someone else might look at rewriting it. --Rumping (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In a decision published on 7 July 2010 on various requests from David Holland to UEA about CRU correspondence with the IPCC, the Information Commissioner ruled that UEA had in some cases failed to respond within the prescribed timetable set out by the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR), in breach of regulation 14(2), and in other cases had failed to respond at all, in breach of regulation 5(2). He was also concerned that the requests in this case were not considered under the EIR despite the clear provisions of regulation 2(1), and that although the emails on the internet indicated prime facie evidence of an offence under regulation 19 of the EIR, the Commissioner was unable to investigate because six months had passed since the potential offence had been committed. It was of considerable concern to the Commissioner that the emails suggested that some requests for information were considered an imposition, that attempts to circumvent the legislation were considered and that the ethos of openness and transparency the legislation seeks to promote were not universally accepted. Information Commissioner's decision on one of the climate data FoI requests, FER0238017, republished by the Guardian

Is there a reliable secondary source that discusses this primary source? Hipocrite (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that British newspapers are not a secondary source? The Guardian reported and quoted a primary source with the comment "The retired engineer and climate sceptic David Holland had made repeated freedom of information requests for climate data of the University of East Anglia and its Climatic Research Unit. He complained to the Information Commissioner's Office about the way the requests were handled – here is the ICO's response". Should we remove all UEA quotations from this article? --Rumping (talk) 14:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that there's no discussion of this primary source in reliable secondary sources. We include the UEA responses because they are central to the issue - this is not. Hipocrite (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm having trouble understanding what's wrong with the passage in question. It may be a bit verbose, but apart from that, what's the problem? The Guardian is an RS. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian didn't write that text - the guardian merely linking to "Scribd" which is not a reliable source. Even if the Guardian hosted the document, it would not be the Guardian's document, it would be a primary source. Hipocrite (talk) 14:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Then a secondary source, which is preferable, should be substituted. With all the media coverage, I can't see how that can be a problem. In the Times story today it says "Echoing the findings of an earlier report by a parliamentary committee in London, the reviewers criticized the scientists at the Climatic Research Unit for consistently 'failing to display the proper degree of openness' in responding to demands for backup data and other information under Britain’s public-record laws." Isn't that what we're basically talking about here? ScottyBerg (talk) 14:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not. We're discussing the ICO here. If a secondary source adresses this issue, it should be included - I agree. My concern is only about editors evaluating primary sources on their own, as opposed to relying on secondary sources. Please find a secondary source that adresses this information - like I asked the first time I removed it. Hipocrite (talk) 14:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clarifying that. I agree with you in general on secondary sources being preferable. But until one is found, I'm not clear that there is a major problem here, or that it should be removed in toto. My concern about the passage is that it might be too long, considering that it appears to be collateral with all the other references to FOI violations. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying this may not be the ICO decision? The Guardian, as a secondary source, says it is and embeds it in their page. Where is the evaluation in the paragraph in italics? It is intended to be a summary. --Rumping (talk) 15:02, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, it was a misunderstanding on my part. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a summary by you - it is your personal interpretation of a primary source. This is not how we write articles. Hipocrite (talk) 15:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy to consider any alternative summary you may wish to suggest which conveys what the Information Commissioner decided.--Rumping (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I have rewritten the section to match exactly what the summary paragraph stated. I still feel that we should have waited for a reliable secondary source before writing anything. Hipocrite (talk) 15:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

and Rumping has immediately reinserted his personal research that "together with attempts to circumvent the legislation and prime facie evidence of an offence of deleting information" is relevent. I suggest that your insertion of parts of the report that you think are interesting is problematic - stick to the summary. Hipocrite (talk) 15:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Paragraphs 46, 50 and 51 are all clearly relevant to the controversy. I think 49 is too, but I won't press the point at this stage. --Rumping (talk) 17:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

That appears to be your original research. Please stick to the summary as provided. Hipocrite (talk) 17:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite has a good point, that in summarising this document we shouldn't go beyond the summary provided by the ICO. In view of the BLP issues with the untested allegations, I've rewritten the clause accordingly. While it's noticeable that the case is about requests by Holland for correspondence, that's not in the summary so I've replaced it with a closer paraphrase. Given the campaigning and misrepresentation by the press of earlier ICO statements, care should be taken to find a balanced and reliable third party source to go beyond this summary. . dave souza, talk 17:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I've reworked it further. I think it's worth reminding people of the rules for using primary sources (at WP:PRIMARY). Primary sources have to be reliably published. This criterion is met; although it's hosted on Scribd, it was uploaded by Adam Vaughan, the deputy editor of the Guardian's environmental section, and presented on the Guardian's official website. He has also provided a short summary.[26]

Second, and this is for Rumping, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge ... Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source." Rumping's addition of personal interpretation is clearly not allowed. I've added a quotation directly from the source and made the text match exactly what the UEA was found to have done wrong. There will no doubt be further secondary sources commenting on this in due course. Until then, we should refrain from adding anything that seeks to interpret the ICO's decision, as opposed to simply citing what is in there. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Stylistically, I thought it better to quote the acronym used by the IC within the quotes, putting the explanatory expansion outside the quote marks. If anyone takes issue with this, you're welcome to undo my change without that specific undo counting in terms of 1RR. . dave souza, talk 18:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that is definitely better. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I give up. My secondary source reference has become a primary source reference. The acronym has gone wrong. I am no longer convinced everyone has actually read the ICO document. Since people keep accusing me of putting my personal interpretation on this rather that being decriptive, though without saying where the interpretation is, I will simply show what the ICO actually said at the end of its document here and let other editors consider the issue, comparing what follows with the paragraph at the top of this thread.--Rumping (talk) 20:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

46. The Commissioner’s decision is that the public authority did not deal with some of the requests in accordance with the requirements of the EIR in the following respects: it failed to provide a refusal within 20 working days in respect of the request of 31 March 2008 and therefore breached regulation 14(2); and it failed to provide responses in respect of the requests of 27 June and 31 July 2008 and therefore breached regulation 5(2).

47. As the complainant has indicated that he is content not to proceed with his complaint in relation the public authority’s failure to provide him with the information he had requested on 27 June and 31 July 2008, the Commissioner requires no further steps to be taken with regard to these requests.

48. Although they do not form part of this Decision Notice the Commissioner wishes to highlight the following matters of concern:

49. The Commissioner notes the delays in compliance on this particular case. It is also of concern that the requests in this case were not considered under the EIR when the subject matter quite clearer falls within the definition contained in regulation 2(1).

50 The wider circumstances of this case, in particular the placement of a substantial number of emails allegedly from CRU onto the internet, has attracted considerable attention (November 2009). The emails suggested that some requests for information were considered an imposition, that attempts to circumvent the legislation were considered and that the ethos of openness and transparency the legislation seeks to promote were not universally accepted. This is of considerable concern to the Commissioner and in keeping with his duty to promote observance of the legislation he will now consider whether further action is appropriate to secure future compliance.

51. The complainant made an allegation that an offence under regulation 19 of the EIR had been committed. Although the emails referred to above indicated prime facie evidence of an offence, the Commissioner was unable to investigate because six months had passed since the potential offence was committed, a constraint placed on the legislation by the Magistrates Court Act 1980.

Thanks for that, hope the Commissioner doesn't get after us for copyvio! The above was not accurately summarised by you, which is why it's better to go with the ICO's summary until such time as a reliable independent source or sources give a proper analysis for us to base the paragraph upon. . dave souza, talk 22:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Significance of FOIA decision

{{od}} I have to wonder how significant this issue really is. It's been two days now and the Guardian appears to have been the only major media outlet to have raised this issue (and even then it didn't cover it in a report). The attention we are paying to it may well be excessive given the lack of press coverage. I wonder if we should hold off from covering it until we get a better idea of its significance? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

My concern too, that it might be collateral. However, it should be mentioned at an appropriate length. It shouldn't be excised solely on the grounds of being a primary source. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this decision may turn out to be the only significant thing on the page, in a few years' time, so hold your horses... I don't think the article currently expresses it well, but David Holland himself considers this the most critical passage:

“The Commissioner’s considers that it is not necessary for information to have a direct effect on the environment for it to fall within the definition in the EIR, only that it needs to be linked to a relevant subsection in regulation 2(1). He is of the view that the phrase “any information…on…” contained in regulation 2(1) should be interpreted widely and in line with the purpose expressed in the first recital of the Council Directive 2003/4/EC which the EIR enact.”

This puts a new onus on anyone involved in any kind of climate research, and is more notable than it first appears. 94.170.107.247 (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

There has been discussion of the chilling effect this has on communications between colleagues, and of the effect of FOIA requests forcing premature release of research information. This will affect science generally, and introduce hitherto underfunded costs of the bureaucracy needed to deal with such requests, at a time of budget cuts. As the ICO note, their remit is set by parliament, and the government may wish to review these effects of legislation and amend relevant acts. Pretty sure I've seen that in print, we need to find and cite reliable secondary sources for the article. . dave souza, talk 04:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Dave, one of the emails is from East Anglia's FOIA officer warning the CRU staff to keep their emails professional as they might be subject to FOIA release. Just my opinion, but they probably should have followed his advice. As far as "premature" release of data, I would think that scientists would appreciate having someone checking their research, for free, as it progresses. Cla68 (talk) 05:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Can we try and get some NPOV going here?

Whatever you think of the state of proof or otherwise of our climate theories, this is an article about the interaction between some climate scientists and some skeptics, not about the climate science. It provides no indication that there is, or was, a controversy about how to interpret the emails, and what conclusions to draw from them. It provides no indication that this controversy is ongoing, or what it is actually about.

It is not NPOV to draw conclusions, and it's not what Wikipedia is about. The article very strongly reflects the evident beliefs of the authors that Climategate was a right-wing conspiracy, which frankly is itself in the realms of conspiracy. Real scientists agree that the Climategate emails are, at the very least, evidence of poor practice. The ICO has categorically ruled that there has been a breach of UK law in regards to FOI - they were only barred from applying criminal sanctions by the statute of limitations. There is a scandal here, and although there's a real question about how much of a scandal it is, and how much weight it has, this article presents it as if there was never anything wrong at all. 94.170.107.247 (talk) 02:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

I've pointed this out also above. The problem is that no single reliable source (like say, a book) yet has really tried to put the whole thing together, although The Hockey Stick Illusion did to some extent. Like I said above, books on this incident should be forthcoming presently and we should be able to use those to fix the issues in the article that you're identifying. Cla68 (talk) 04:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The article reflects the views of mainstream sources as well as giving due weight to minority scientific and political views, as required by WP:NPOV. The ICO has only ruled that there has been a breach of the regulations by the university in a decision which will be resolved under the current act, it has stated that it has carried out no investigations of the alleged criminal breach as that is time-barred by the magistrates act. Tnere's a complex scandal here, including the scandal of misleading press and media coverage. As reliable sources are found, these issues can be given more coverage in the article. Note that books aren't the most reliable sources in this area, and all sources have to be assessed in accordance with WP:SOURCES policy. . . dave souza, talk 04:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Dave Souza, I may be an IP user, but I've played this game before. The policy relevant here is WP:IAR. Your contention regarding NPOV is simply false. This article doesn't report accurately, let alone neutrally. I notice that you reverted my edits in toto, despite the fact that some of the changes were purely corrections of factual inaccuracies: Phil Jones has been promoted to a new position, not reinstated, and there were not three independent UK inquiries - whether you mean independent of CRU, or independent of each other, it still isn't true. Back to NPOV again for a moment, though. The article at present does not present the skeptic's side of the story. It's not about weighing one up against the other and deciding which to report; both need to be included because this article is supposed to tell the story of what happened.

Cla68, we don't need books when we have primary sources. It is plainly ridiculous to suggest that a statement like 'Steve McIntyre claims the inquiries were flawed in the following respects...' is original research and cannot be attested to by a link to the relevant ClimateAudit post.94.170.107.247 (talk) 10:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

@ IP, sorry to hear that you're playing games here. As for your comment, my statements about NPOV are accurate, but I'll be glad to discuss any detailed points where you differ in interpreting the policy. Our sources say he was reinstated, but as you note he was effectively promoted to a new position and I've used a better source to clarify that point. The "skeptic's side of the story" is given due weight, after considerable discussion. Feel free to propose detailed improvements. As for primary sources, you don't seem to have studied WP:NOR policy, that's a useful link. . . dave souza, talk 11:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Can't help playing games - Wikipedia is a giant game of Nomic, rendered non-pointless only by WP:IAR. IAR has to take precedence here, because you're arguing that something very obviously true cannot be stated in the article. In this case we can interpret 'published' in a liberal sense to include the blog-publications that are at the heart of this article. The lack of mention of the background is what I'm calling NPOV. You can argue whether it is or it isn't, but it still needs to go in either way. My opinion of neutrality is irrelevant to the issue of being informative. I can't understand why the 'responses' section doesn't include an entire half of the response: the critical half from the blogosphere which was the origin of the controversy. The entire article is meaningless without it.94.170.107.247 (talk) 12:35, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

Blogs are not reliable sources. Hipocrite (talk) 12:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Don't be utterly ludicrous, please. Blogs are reliable sources when we're talking about those blogs. If I want to justify the statement 'Steve McIntyre alleged ...' then I don't need a newspaper article saying so - I can point directly to where that has been published on ClimateAudit.

The article is entitled Climatic Research Unit Email Controversy, but it only consists of statements that the controversy was unjustified. It doesn't say what the controversy was. This information is actually obvious enough not to require sourcing at all, really - see the "Paris is the capital of France" example in WP:NOR. For this article to be in any way useful or complete, it requires a section about what was alleged to be wrong about the content of the emails.94.170.107.247 (talk) 13:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

You might want to read Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#Content_of_the_documents. Hipocrite (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Further - have you ever edited the encyclopedia under a user name? Hipocrite (talk) 13:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this IP user is making a good point. When this article was first started it was established that ClimateAudit was not a blog of enough importance and value to quote while the notoriously biased RealClimate was just perfect. I think with the latest inquiry report this has changed. Even two qualified super green journalist Harrabin (BBC) and Pearce (Guardian) agree that Steve Mcintyre and ClimateAudit are the best source of in depth critique and the underlying source of the controversy. At least some key post should be linked to. I think this merits further discussion. (aka IP 132.xxx)91.153.115.15 (talk) 13:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

No, this was discussed at length previously (see this talk page's archives). Blogs can only be cited as in certain very limited instances. In this case, two blogs - RealClimate and Climate Audit - were directly involved with the hack. Both were targeted by the hacker, who hacked RealClimate and attempted to use Climate Audit to promote the hack. This article cites what their authors wrote about the events of the hack solely in relation to how they affected their own blogs. This complies with the rule in WP:SELFPUB that "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves" (bolding as in the original). While RealClimate and Climate Audit have gone on to publish many posts about the controversy, those posts do not meet the criteria set out in WP:SELFPUB and are therefore not quoted here. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that blogs are good sources when writing about what blogs say - anything else is plainly daft. I think the bit you're missing is that the controversy is what ClimateAudit say it is. Because of that, you've actually quoted the wrong bit of wp:selfpub - what you wanted was this bit: "Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." We're under the "caution should be exercised" section, because there's no doubt that in this field, Steve McIntyre is the expert. My impression is that very few newspapers have ever accurately reported the details of what is actually controversial. This is extremely important to get right, because without it, it's not comprehensible as to why this controversy is on-going.94.170.107.247 (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

Do you guys have a specific edit and a specific source you'd like to suggest, or are you just complaining in general? Hipocrite (talk) 13:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why it's relevant if I've ever edited under a username rather than an IP, but the answer is no.

I have read the section in question - it alludes to the skeptic's claims, without actually saying what they are. The skeptical position is still that their points have not been addressed, but it's impossible to say so or to explain why without a much fuller explanation of what they are.

I am at this stage suggesting a comprehensive re-write is required, and seeking consensus on that before starting, since even my minor, factual edits were reverted when made without discussion. I'm willing to withdraw my contention that the article is NPOV as such, in favour of a suggestion that it merely doesn't do what it says on the tin. If there are neutrality issues, they are secondary to the incompleteness. This article needs to be mostly about the core issues of Climategate - it needs to show why the emails were controversial in the first place. The reaction is largely secondary in this respect.

Worth noting that blog posts from ClimateAudit are already used as references to the article, by the way.94.170.107.247 (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

I don't think a rewrite is needed, but if you must, feel free to do so in a subpage of this talk page (Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy/iprewrite, for example) and we can evaluate it. Hipocrite (talk) 14:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

PS - lest you feel that your edit was ignored, I re-evaluated the edit you called "minor, factual" ([27]), and would like to stress to you strongly that you edit was not minor, as it added to the lede, and was not "factual," - you state that the inquiries were "widely criticised as whitewashes," and "hold little weight amongst those in the sceptical community who called for them," and that "Skeptics allege that the inquiries did not focus on the true issues raised by the Climategate emails, and so generally do not believe the conclusions hold much weight." I suggest that these are all either your own personal beliefs, or expand the actual opinions of specific individuals to encompass "skeptics" generally. If you'd like to add content in the future, please be certain it is sourced, as opposed to stuff you know to be true. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you parsed my sentence how I meant it - I made one 'Edit', consisting of a number of smaller edits - I was complaining that even those sub-edits that were indisputably factual were removed, but perhaps you just reverted the whole thing? I think it's important to realise that skeptics generally have not accepted these inquiries, and it's in no way contentious to suggest they're widely considered a whitewash, so I wasn't necessarily editorialising. It's not possible to be a skeptic and accept the inquiries, I suspect, so whilst it is undoubtedly a generalisation, it's one as true as saying, say, that Frenchman consider the Eiffel Tower a national icon. 94.170.107.247 (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)Dave

This IP has a valid concern about use of the blog ClimateAudit as a source. It seems to be used, in this case, because of the specific set of circumstances involving this controversy. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Correct, see my explanation a short distance above. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

<ec> It gives one of the first reports of the stolen emails, but is a primary source for that and it will be better if we can find a reliable secondary source to cite for the same point. . . dave souza, talk 18:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

That's not quite accurate. The posts aren't "reports of the stolen emails" - they are the blogs' owners' accounts of the hacker's interactions with their blogs. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Good point, I accept that clarification. The sources are valid, but I still think it's worth looking for a good secondary source covering the developing incident. dave souza, talk 23:17, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Per now archived (34), here are the CRU email controversy references for discussion; Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency and U.K. ... WSJ

OK, thought discussion question was deleted, but now see that it is in "Archive 34" ... Here is one of the WSJ articles: Report Backs Climate Data, Scolds Scientists: U.K. Inquiry Concludes Researchers Didn't Skew Findings, but Says They Failed to Display a 'Proper Degree of Openness' and previously (Tuesday 6.July.2010 page A10) Review Finds Issues at Climate Panel: Dutch Agency Backs U.N. on Warming, Spots Error, Calls for Broader Summary. 99.29.185.123 (talk) 22:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, they do mention it briefly but seem rather muddled and I think we've already got better sources in the article. If you're the same editor that added this, your IP number has changed so you've missed the talk page message I left for you. It's a good idea to get a user account so we know who we're discussing this with, and you can build a good reputation. . . dave souza, talk 23:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

A "user account" doesn't mean you "know" anything. Even one's "authentic" reality, is ultimately just faith, at least that is what i believe. 99.102.176.120 (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Climategate and Holocaust Denial

In the "Holocaust Denial" wiki, the information pertains to "Holocaust Revisionism" i.e. only certain aspects of a large event are called into question. The controllers of that wiki admit this. They maintain that the wiki must be titled "Holocaust Denial" rather than the more accurate "Holocaust Revisionism" because it is referred to as "Holocaust Denial" by "reliable sources". It does not matter to them that "denial" is a pejorative, nor that it is manifestly incorrect. On this wiki, we have the opposite. "Climategate" as dubbed by the media, is not allowed because "-gate" is a pejorative. Never mind that this is the term used by "reliable sources". This discrepancy needs to be addressed by someone with the proper permissions, on this "free" encyclopedia.

I find it especially odd that these two cases are wrongly applying the wiki rules in the most destructive way possible. Holocaust "denial"/"revisionism" is the expression of an opinion. "Climate Research... whatever (honestly?)"/"Climategate" is the exposure of misdeeds. Yet, it is the former that is presented in the pejorative and the latter that is presented as neutral. This baffles the mind. How did these crooks at wiki even come up with the name for this article?

We're supposed to be neutral and name our articles based on the most commonly used name. "Holocaust denial" is the most commonly used name for that article topic. So the editors at Holocaust denial are correct. However, the most commonly used name for this article is "Climategate". So, why isn't this article named Climategate? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably because that claim is complete nonsense, as you well know. Only those Wikipedians who seem to support the manufactured scandal refer to this article with that denier-created term. Everyone else refers to it by its current title. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

While you might personally think that reliable sources are wrong, arguments based on WP:TRUTH have no merit here at Wikipedia. No, Wikipedians who are trying to follow WP:NPOV also use the common name. Not that it matters what Wikipedians are calling it. What matters are what reliable sources are calling it. What's the most common name for this topic as evidenced by reliable sources? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Let me repeat what you said above: "However, the most commonly used name for this article is 'Climategate'." - NOT TRUE. The most commonly used name for this article is the title. The most commonly used name for this manufactured controversy is "Climategate", which is not the same thing as what you said. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see you've misunderstood the topic of this discussion. The OP was asking about the name of this article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't responding to the OP. I was responding to you. In your comment above, you said that everyone referred to this article as "Climategate", so I responded by saying that obviously was incorrect. I was not commenting on what people call the actual incident, because that was not what you said. Anyway, it is all rather academic because my response was evidently based on something you miswrote, rather than any misunderstanding on my part. I accept your apology. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

He also defended "Holocaust revisionism" as "more accurate". I hate to resort to an obvious ad hom, but sometimes it's required. As the grandson of a Nazi, I believe there is no room at the table of civilised discourse for those who deny the Holocaust. And I've yet to come across someone who advocates for the "revisionism" label without actually embracing the belief. Guettarda (talk) 06:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably because it's a proverbial third rail of civilized discourse. I'm not sure if the media will continue to refer to this episode as Climategate or not in the future. It all depends on what the ulimate fallout is, and it will be awhile before that becomes evident. Cla68 (talk) 06:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

AQFK has compiled a long list of RS's that use the term "Climategate." It is surely the most common term for the row, and we see "Climatic Research Unit email controversy" is so unwieldy that SCjessey, who with no documentation insists that's what most people call it, resorts to calling it "title." :D We do need to agree "controversy" refers to the emails--the theft, publication, and storm of accusations and defenses that followed--and not to the science itself. --Yopienso (talk) 07:15, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

That's a list of articles that contain the string "climategate". Given the term is inherently loaded, that "-gate" suffixes should be avoided under wikipedia policy, and that it's inevitably tied to fringe viewpoints, the argument for changing the title needs to be more compelling. Indeed, one of the last times the name change topic came up, I went through every reference in the document and found that most sources don't use the term, and almost all the remaining sources make it clear that it is a term used by others that they do not use themselves (e.g. "dubbed 'climategate'"). This is why the phrase most often comes with quotation marks: because the reliable sources tend not to use or endorse the term themselves due to its loaded nature. Things may have changed since then, but the situation is the same - the argument to change the title needs to be more convincing. The current title was the result of a compromise, and is an appropriate compromise that is consistent with wikipedia guidelines. StuartH (talk) 08:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Can people stop using the Fringe-argument all over. It doesn't get more correct even if you repeat it in Ad nauseam without WP:RS sources backing it). It may be covered partly by our article, but it's used to move "skeptics" papers outside "significant-minority views" as described here WP:FRINGE as far as I see.

Look also at this list Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy/Climategate usage and what Jimbo Wales has stated "I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for "Climategate" as the name for the article [...] but with a pretty silly title that no one uses. The scandal here is clearly not the "hacking incident" - about which virtually nothing is known. The scandal is the content of the emails, which has proven to be deeply embarrassing (whether fairly or unfairly) to certain people.) The result of the silly title is that there is traction (unfairly) for claims that Wikipedia is suppressing something.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)"[28] and "It is not up to Wikipedia to decide what it is called - it is up to the world at large, and they have - overwhelmingly - decided.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)" [29] on his talk page. Nsaa (talk) 10:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo is welcome to edit if he wants. But he is wrong: the scandal isn't the emails, which have proved on examination harmless. The scandal is the "sekptic" and media responses to the manufactured controversy; this is becmoing ever clearer William M. Connolley (talk) 10:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the emails have not been proved harmless, but have proved the scientists were not open, for which they have been formally criticized by reviewers. --Yopienso (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. But why are you going over all this again? If you have some proposal for changing the article content, that would be different William M. Connolley (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Because you are disagreeing with the facts as ascertained by the Russell review. I don't like to let disinformation stand. "'We do find that there has been a consistent pattern of failing to display the proper degree of openness, both on the part of CRU scientists and on the part of the UEA,' the report, commissioned by UEA, said." And a RS commentary on the review: "'The damage done to the credibility of the anthropogenic climate change argument will remain, as much for the tone of those notorious e-mails as for their precise details,' writes Janet Daley in the Daily Telegraph." My proposal, it's true, isn't to change the article content but to be free to use "CG" on this page to refer to the scandal without being corrected or hushed. --Yopienso (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Argumentum ad Jimbonem failed at the time, and it's no more valid now. If anything, the recent investigations have shown how even many respected individuals may have jumped the gun. George Monbiot has admitted as much himself.[30] I think we should reach a decision based on the arguments, not on who is making them. StuartH (talk) 10:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

"Jumping the gun" is a nice euphemism for completely failing to investigate a story and report it accurately. If the media can't do their jobs, then what is it exactly that they are doing? Viriditas (talk) 11:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

WMC, StuartH and Viriditas are arguing The Truth®. I suggest that if this is what they want to do, they find a 9/11 "truthers" forum where the rejection of reliable sources will be welcomed with open arms. But here on Wikipedia, we don't care about The Truth®. What we care about is verifiability. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your insightful comment! Yes, now that I think about it, this article must have a section devoted to biased media coverage, especially the missteps, poor reporting, multiple apologies and retractions, and attacks upon the climate scientists. I want to thank you for a wonderful idea, AQFK! Viriditas (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

"Given the term is inherently loaded, that "-gate" suffixes should be avoided under wikipedia policy" There is no rule against article titles using -gate suffixes. Nor is there a rule against using a title that expresses a viewpoint. See List of articles whose titles express a POV. The key question here is simple: What is the most commonly used name for this article's topic? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The important thing to note about all of those examples is that they are historical examples. While it appears to have been cut during a recent Manual of Style clean-up and simplification, the sentence I referred last time this came up was "They should not be used in article titles except in historical cases where the term is widely used by reputable historical sources". This would clearly disqualify "climategate". At the time I also expressed concern about how common the name was, given that most of the references used managed to avoid it, and many of the remainder only used it in quotation marks. To override the importance of a neutral article title as set out in the NPOV policy, the alternate name needs to be used by a clear consensus of reliable sources. I'm open to compromise on the issue, but if I'm to change my mind on this issue, I'll need to be satisfied that the policies and guidelines have actually changed to accommodate "-gate" titles on current affairs, and that since the last discussion the use of the term has increased to the point of being used by a clear consensus of reliable sources. StuartH (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The NYT piece SCjessey quotes says, "Perhaps now we can put the manufactured controversy known as Climategate behind us and turn to the task of actually doing something about global warming." Everybody get that? ...KNOWN AS CLIMATEGATE... No "scare quotes," even. --Yopienso (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I didn't quote any article. Please strike out your comment. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for misrepresenting your manufactured controversy (stamped 23:54, 11 July 2010) as a quote when in fact it was an allusion, or perhaps you were only repeating what other editors had said and not alluding to the Times at all. I meant no harm and am happy to strike my reference to you. Please forgive. --Yopienso (talk) 22:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The policy is about whether a title appears in "a significant proportion of English-language reliable sources", not a single article referred to using a large font. Last time this came up, I was able to go through the references and came to the conclusion that this condition was not met, and from the failure of the rename request, this conclusion was shared by others. I might be prepared to try something similar if a rename request comes up again, but I do have better things to do with my time, and I think people have a right to be hesitant about repeated attempts to push for a rename that has been repeatedly rejected. StuartH (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If you only looked at the articles from the last two months the task would be less of a burden and at the same time more accurate as the story has matured. I would also wager that the press supports the use of climategate by now.91.153.115.15 (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The press has always used climategate, but if you googlenews for Climategate from Apr-Jun, 2010 you get 435 hits. With scare quotes you get 392 hits. All the MSM call it climategate mark nutley (talk) 18:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The arguments presented here that claim "Climategate" is not in general use in the MSM are examples of the bias and advocacy to which I alluded above under "Manufactured controversy" etc. & NPOV in my post of 05:20, 12 July 2010. As I've said before, since there's a redirect from "Climategate" I don't care what you call the article; it does, however, prove the bias is not only alive and well but controlling. --Yopienso (talk) 18:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

@StuartH: The trouble with this is that some editors discount RSs they don't like. AQFK's list is actually quite accurate, and very long. Last time I bothered to supply a current reference it was totally ignored. (Not actually sure it was the last time. One time.)

An editor who prefers not to be named or quoted asked in March for a good source that used the term "Climategate" consistently and also asked why we should use it. This was my response:

We should use it because it is the most widely used and recognized name for it and is far less awkward "The Climate Research Unit hacking incident." The "ClimateGate" affair - the publication of e-mails and documents hacked or leaked from one of the world's leading climate research institutions - is being intensely debated on the web....As the repercussions of ClimateGate reverberate around the virtual community of global citizens... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8388485.stm Yopienso (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

That article uses it one more time: "...these are questions that have become much more important in the wake of ClimateGate." And then again in a heading inviting comments: "Does the ClimateGate affair have implications for the way science, and climate science in particular, is run?" And then 26 times more in reader comments. (Yah, they don't count as RS, but do show the public says "Climategate" instead of "CRU email controversy." (The word controversy appears only twice on that page, both times in reader comments, and neither time to name the hacking incident.) But that article is so last year...

• Here's the BBC on 7 July: No "controversy," but "Climategate" in the title and twice in the body: "The rigour and honesty of the scientists at the heart of the "climategate" row is not in doubt,..." "...Gavin will be discussing the implications of the report and the whole 'climategate' affair in the studio."
• How many time does the Guardian use "Climategate" as a title on this page?
• Title and body of USA Today
• Sub-title and body of LA Times.

Can anyone find "Climate Research Unit email controversy" as a title? I've googled it and found it only on WP mirrors and on this and related pages. This one's close. I think the fact that "Climategate," with or with "scare quotes," with or without a hyphen, with or without a capital "G," is by far the most commonly-used term is amply manifest. --Yopienso (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I don't think we need to demonstrate that "Climate Research Unit email controversy" is widely used. Based on the WP:TITLE policy, we have two choices for the article title - "Non-neutral but common names" and "non-judgmental" "descriptive titles". The initial presumption should always be in favour of neutrality, and many of the editors pushing for "climategate" have been rather non-neutral themselves, pushing opinions of the "controversy" that have been eviscerated by multiple reviews into the e-mails. Given the phrase "climategate"'s ties to the manufacturing of the "manufactured controversy" here and in the denialosphere, we are right to exercise caution and require a strong and convincing argument for using "Non-neutral but common names".

I can only speak for myself, but not all sources are reliable, and not all reliable sources support "climategate". How best to gauge the consensus of reliable sources isn't an easy problem to solve, but having gone through the sources already vetted as reliable (by appearing in the article), I wasn't convinced. At the time, the term was largely being used as a pejorative and ignored by the wider media except when referring to the response of "skeptics". On the other hand, as the misconduct claims started to evaporate, the pejorative lost its impact and "climategate" became more of a failed smear campaign. So the context is a little different now.

There have also been policy, guideline and manual of style inconsistencies on this that need to be resolved. Perhaps the usual suspects aren't in the best position to decide? I still maintain that Jimbo Wales is but one editor who I often feel is in a lesser position to judge individual issues than most concerned editors, but to his credit he rarely exercises his administrative power. However on questions of policy rather than fact, the input of a wider range of uninvolved administrators and users might be needed here. StuartH (talk) 05:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful input, Stuart. In response,

1. What I find at WP:TITLE is:

Every Wikipedia article must have a unique title.[1] While not always possible, the ideal title is:

• Recognizable – Using names and terms commonly used in reliable sources, and so likely to be recognized, for the topic of the article.
• Easy to find – Using names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles).
• Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
• Concise – Using names and terms that are brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.)
• Consistent – When other criteria do not indicate an obvious choice, consider giving similar articles similar titles.

"Climategate" is recognizable, easy to find, as precise as is necessary to identify the topic, and concise. "Climatic Research Unit email controversy" is more precise, but is not a name or terms commonly used in RS, is not easy to find, and is certainly not concise. (I do not understand how the last point would apply to this subject.)

2. Earlier you said, "The policy is about whether a title appears in 'a significant proportion of English-language reliable sources', not a single article referred to using a large font." So why do you say, "I don't think we need to demonstrate that 'Climate Research Unit email controversy' is widely used?"

3. Please provide 3 reliable news sources (sources, not individual articles) that do not use the term "Climategate." I know the University of East Anglia doesn't, and the Muir Russell report uses it only in quoting titles. But they are primary sources, not news media.

4. I would appreciate acknowledgment from those editors who up until now have maintained the opposite is true that "Climategate" is presently being used widely in the MSM to refer to the incident and its aftermath. I'm not asking for people to like it or use it or even to change the title of the article. I am asking to be able to use it myself on talk pages without being accused of being a denier or worse. (I would prefer on talk pages to call it "CG" as a shorthand just as we use "WP" for Wikipedia.) --Yopienso (talk) 07:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

While "climategate" has always had wide usage in some MSM, it's not a neutral term and it would be premature for Wikipedia to support one side of a developing debate. Once the dust settles it would be appropriate to review this. The issue has again been the subject of MSM debate and there do seem to be signs of widening usage, but this is rather a busy time for editors and reopening the issue right now is just once more distraction. dave souza (talk) 08:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

1. Unfortunately on this issue there is no ideal title. Some of the criteria for an ideal title point towards "Climategate", and some point towards "Climatic Research Unit email controversy". The former is more concise, the latter is more precise. While it's a unique event, the latter is more consistent with a general avoidance of "-gate" suffixes from the title guidelines. The use of redirects should resolve the ease of finding it, and "climategate" might have a slight edge on recognisability. But we also need to consider the neutrality of the title under the policy, and the current one is sufficiently concise and recognisable in its own right to be used if "climategate" fails on neutrality grounds.

2. We don't need to demonstrate that the current title is widely used because the current title is a descriptive title, not a common name unlike "climategate". The policy differentiates between the two cases.

3. Having done a few Google searches, it doesn't appear that there are any news organisations who have avoided the term altogether. But it is a little difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff with a google search, with blog comments and without the context. Maybe I've missed them, but it seems most have used the term at some point or another (since it's what I found, it's only fair that I state it). Whether or not the consensus of reliable sources requires a consensus within the reliable sources (something that isn't as clear), I'm not sure. Another policy question perhaps best left to uninterested editors, perhaps.

4. "Widely used" is relative. It's possibly more widely used than a few months ago when this was last discussed. On the other hand, it's often referred to, but not directly used, by reliable sources. It has been much more widely used by one side of the debate than the other, which is another concern. But I should make it clear that I don't consider everyone pushing for "climategate" to be a denier, or even those much more critical of the CRU scientists than myself (although it's clear that many of these people may have been mistaken). But most climate change articles seem to get a lot of attention from the deniers and that almost all of them are pushing for a pejorative title should be telling. StuartH (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well lets see, who is currently using it. George Monbiot [31] Such an alarmist i`m surprised he has not melted. Mike Hulme and Jerome Ravetz use it [32] As does Scientific American [33] and the British Medical Journal [34] It still is and always has bee ncalled climategate mark nutley (talk) 13:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

We've wasted enough time over arguing about this article's title. None of this stuff is new. Why is this a useful use of anyone's time? William M. Connolley (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well pointing out the obvious: It appears to worth your time.91.153.115.15 (talk) 14:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been avoiding this whole discussion because I was annoyed by the implicit equating of Climate Change with the Holocaust. This has become yet another discussion of the title, which was settled a while ago. Can't we get back to improving this article? ScottyBerg (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's any point in reopening this issue. It's all been discussed before and the arguments on both sides have not changed. If anything, now that the initial claims have been disproved or non-substantiated, there is even less justification for using a POV term that intimates wrongdoing. Can we not move on to something more productive, as ScottyBerg asks? -- ChrisO (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

ChrisO: The validity of the allegations has nothing to do with the most common name of the article topic. The claim that we shouldn't use a POV term has no basis in Wikipedia policies. In fact, WP:NPOV says the exact opposite: "proper names for people or events which incorporate non-neutral terms - e.g. Boston massacre, Tea Pot Dome scandal, Edward the Confessor, Jack the Ripper - are legitimate article titles when they are used by a consensus of the sources.". It is not realistic for you or anyone to expect this issue to go away so long as we continue to use the wrong name. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length and settled. If you want to be constructive, move on and do something more useful. Obsessing about the article's name is not constructive. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

All the more reason to fix the article title. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah. Chris is right. The unequivocal exoneration of the scientists and the confirmation that their science is sound is proof that resistance to the scandal/"Climategate"/leak/fraud nomenclature preferred by the promoters of this manufactured controversy was well founded. While poor-quality reporting by discredited media organs through the use of opinion pieces pushed the denier agenda, this article remained a beacon of objectivity. Continued demands to change to a POV title like "Climategate" boggle the mind, quite frankly. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What boggles the mind is how few editors are showing up on this page. And all the same people have the same opinions. Apparently persistence is the only thing that counts. Sad. I'm getting a beer.91.153.115.15 (talk) 19:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey: Thanks for your comments but they have no basis in Wikipedia policy. As long as we continue to violate WP:NPOV, this issue will keep coming up. Live it, learn it, love it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

@ A Quest For Knowledge, sorry to hear that you intent to continue violating NPOV, you are strongly urged to cease this disruptive behaviour. . dave souza, talk 19:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

(after ec, @AQFK) - I'm not violating any policies, and the current title isn't violating any policies either. I get that you seem disappointed that science and reason have prevailed over the energy industry and deniers, but that's not my problem. The current title is perfectly okay. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Dave souza: Where did I say that I intend to violate NPOV? Exact quote, please. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey: Discuss the article, not editor's motivations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:08, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever. -- Kettle (talk) 20:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Calm down please, both of you. AQFK, this is an issue that has been discussed at great length. What we have now is the result of compromises on both sides. "Climategate" exists as a redirect to this article. The term is mentioned in the very first sentence of the article. The reader is not inconvenienced in any way by the article title being as it is. Both sides have had to compromise to get to this point. You'll recall that there was resistance to even including the term in the article in the first place. The arguments over the title wasted a huge amount of everyone's time that could have been put to much better use doing other things.

You need to be pragmatic here and accept that neither side is going to get 100% of what it wants. By their nature, compromises won't satisfy everyone completely. Please accept that a compromise has been reached and move on from this issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I was much happier when 'climategate' wasn't mentioned until deep in the second paragraph, when the text was explaining the way that bloggers and some parts of the media got hold of the story. If we're going to use it, though, I would like to see a small section about the origins, meaning and usage of the term by various parties at different times, which can be duly summarised in the lede. In particular I'm interested in the fact that a whois query shows that the internet domain climategate.com was first registered on 5 Jan 2008, nearly two years before the theft, by an organisation based in Arizona. So, no, none of us have all we want. --Nigelj (talk) 20:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not planning on suggesting a new article name right now. I'll wait until ArbCom makes its decision. I suspect they'll rule against SPOV and in favor of NPOV, but let's wait to find out. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I've missed a few of the administrative developments in the last month or two - could someone point me towards the ArbCom case or quickly bring me up to speed? Thanks. StuartH (talk) 05:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I haven't heard of any ArbCom case either. Second the motion. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I presume he means Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change. Needless to say, there's zero chance that ArbCom will dictate the name of this or any other article. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I'd like to know why the hell I wasn't notified by the agenda-driven editor who posted this "evidence", as required by process. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't notified, and I doubt if anyone else targeted by this person was notified either. However, I don't think process has ever been an issue for him. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

It ain`t over till the fat lady sings

It appears not all are happy with the Muir Russell or Oxburgh whitewashes. Graham Stringer is not happy at all in fact, [35] [36] Neither is Phil Willis [37] “Quite frankly, I couldn’t believe it. …There has been a slight of hand in that the actual terms of reference were not what we had been led to believe.” Were in the article should this go? mark nutley (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There should be a complete rewrite starting with the name. But a name is just a name. The real issue is that we are not much better off after the 3+ inquires. As I gather Lawson now wants an inquiry of the inquires! Maybe it would be best to wait a week and see if there is any other fallout? It would cut down on the aspirin consumption.91.153.115.15 (talk) 20:01, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Work on this? [38]91.153.115.15 (talk) 20:04, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology holds its own hearings on the matter, we can, of course, include mention of it in this artice if it is discussed in reliable sources. Cla68 (talk) 07:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

It's very unlikely that it will. My understanding is that Stringer was the only member of the committee to have complained about its earlier hearings, though as he appears to have denialist leanings that is probably not surprising. However, any decision to reopen the investigation would have to be agreed by the full committee. I very much doubt that they would want to reopen an issue they've already declared closed, especially as it's already been thoroughly investigated elsewhere. It's safe to predict that nothing will come of Stringer's demands. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

You must have missed Harrabins interview with Phil Willis? [39] Willis sounded fairly annoyed.91.153.115.15 (talk) 09:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if this is going to be the pattern for the ArbCom case? If the committee doesn't find/state/conclude that all scientists are lying crooks and that GW is a communist conspiracy, then it too will be called a whitewash with cries to re-run it over and over until people get the result they want? Reliable sources may one day tackle this phenomenon wrt CRU, and then we can report on their coverage here. Until then there is no more need now to run with the extremist fringe than there was over the last six or eight months. Eventually sensible coverage will prevail, and then we will be glad (again) that we bided our time and kept the article sane until there were notable things to report. Not news, no rush, no deadline. --Nigelj (talk) 10:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I think you put it quite well with "no rush, no deadline". The inquiries clearly left lingering doubt and this has nothing to do with any conspiracy either way. At least it appears so due to the lack of major edits to the article. The new article in the Economist is particularly revealing [40]as their prior coverage has been tilted the other way. (The well rounded comments are also worth reading.)91.153.115.15 (talk) 10:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

That is an excellent article. Cla68 (talk) 10:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it is rather poor, in that it fails to ack the regrettable role of the media (inc the Economist) in this kerfuffle. The NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/opinion/11sun2.html?_r=1 is much better William M. Connolley (talk) 14:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

That's an op-ed editorial about Climategate. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

W00t. You're not bitter, are you? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, is that leetspeak? Bitter about what? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:28, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

(restoring indent) The Times editorial cited by WMC should be cited, given the newspaper's influence, especially on US policymakers. It's an editorial, the voice of the newspaper, not an op-ed. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

There is also a piece in the Columbia Journalism Review that is well worth reading. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:52, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Shall we follow the NYT editorial (and others) and call it what it is - a manufactured controversy? Right now, that's only present in the lead, and only as the opinion of one source. Which, of course, it isn't. Guettarda (talk) 15:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Why not? As long as the viewpoints, in for instance the Economist[41], are also included. An entry such as "Climategate has been called a manufactured controversy by xxx but...yyy says..." Quite reasonable and supported by current sources.91.153.115.15 (talk) 16:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

No one seems to mind, so I've added the Times editorial to the lead. It's strong language by Times standards, and I think its prominence deserves mention prominently. I've also done a little tweaking, as the language of the lead seems dense.ScottyBerg (talk) 17:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to summarize the Economist's article, but I'm having trouble getting my arms around it, as the wording is so hedged and mealy mouthed. Perhaps somebody else can take a crack at that. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I feel the Newsweek portion is a bit too much as it was published before the report came out. I would like to add the following directly after your last sentence. " The Economist, stated[42] that "The Russell report is thorough, but it will not satisfy all the critics. Nor does it, in some ways, fulfil its remit." highlighting that the not all emails were reviewed. The Economist also stressed that none of the inquiries reviewed the accuracy of the science and that "The mode of production has been found acceptable, but the product is for others to judge." ".91.153.115.15 (talk) 17:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Scotty; Would you be so kind to make the addition? The article is locked again.

Sure. I think that's a reasonable summary. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Stated or found?

Good grief! No more warring on this, please. Why aren't you guys discussing it? My two cents: "Found" is better. Of course they stated it...after they found it. You could always say they "concluded" if somebody's really all that worried they "found" something that wasn't there. "Concluded" shifts the assertion subjectively back to people and away from the objective "found." --Yopienso (talk) 09:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

By the way, Wealths wealth (talk · contribs) is pretty obviously a Scibaby sockpuppet. No point discussing anything with him... -- ChrisO (talk) 09:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Grumble. I would prefer "concluded", rather than "found". (I'm sure they found something which wasn't there, but I don't have any hard evidence.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Concluded" seems fine to me. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Concluded is good. Verbal chat 10:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Concluded" or "found" are both fine for me - the key is that it was the result of a deliberate investigation, not a of-the-cuff statements. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Manufactured controversy" etc. & NPOV

With recent additions, the article seems to be veering off NPOV. I think we need RS'd adds pointing out that not everyone is happy with the way the CRU (etc) inquiries were conducted. I'll be on the lookout. Pete Tillman (talk) 21:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure I understand you. Why is "manufactured controversy" off NPOV? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

See above. If there are differing opinions in the media, then each can be attributed..."The New York Times stated that it was a manufactured controversy, but the Economist opined that it raised legitimate concerns." or something along those lines. That's how to keep it NPOV. Cla68 (talk) 22:45, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. There is no doubt that this was a manufactured controversy, a highly notable fact. But there is little evidence in reliable sources to suggest "legitimate concerns". -- Scjessey (talk) 23:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe that this is what the sources are reporting. The Associated Press article on the release of the report gave several paragraphs to the concerns over CRU's and Mann's behavior, noting that they had rejoiced over the death of a sceptic. Cherry picking media sources to add opinions to the lede is not very helpful. Cla68 (talk) 23:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Every single significant investigation and report has completely exonerated the scientists, and reliable sources have given this fact significant coverage. Inevitably, this has been followed up by sources confirming what we all already knew - that this controversy was manufactured. Some sources also note that the faux controversy has also demonstrated that scientists aren't very good at handling criticism (what a big surprise!) or repeated requests for information from climate change deniers hellbent on attacking their good work (another big surprise). That aspect of it is hardly newsworthy, and has little coverage in the mainstream media. So it isn't cherry picking. It is simply noting the signal and ignoring the noise. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added the Economist summary suggested above. If there are continued POV problems, I can think of several possible solutions. One is to move the paragraph in question elsewhere in the article, leaving a summary of the press reaction. Another is to add more press reaction. Re the "cherry picking" comment: if there are other major media editorial commentaries, feel free to add them. I'll look around myself. The Wall Street Journal is one likely possibility for balance. POV concerns in this article need to be taken seriously, and while I don't agree I can see why that objection might be raised. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Searching the Wall Street Journal, I came up with this op-ed article dated 7-12: "The Climate Change Whitewash Continues."[43]. That should be added, but what I'm looking for first are editorial commentaries, rather than op-eds by one side or the other. This one is by a professor and Cato Institute fellow. I'll keep looking. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I've moved the Economist piece down to the report it deals with. The other two discuss the controversy - it appears the Economist is only discussing the Russel report. I also question - Newsweek and the NYT get one sentence with one quote each when they say something, why did you provide three sentences and two quotes to The Economist saying something? After EC - that's an opinion piece and should not be weighted equally to editorials. Hipocrite (talk) 00:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me like there are so many opinions on the significance of the incident that trying to quote them all will be unwieldy for the lede and the paragraph should be moved to the bottom of the article. A summary for the lede saying something like, "Media reactions to the controversy were mixed, with some calling it a manufactured scandal but others opining that there was more to the incident than the investigations had revealed." or something like that. Cla68 (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If it's correct that media reaction is mixed. We need to compare apples with apples: staff commentaries and editorials (such as the Economist, Times and Newsweek) can't be mixed in with op-eds such as the one from the Cato Institute gent in the Wall Street Journal. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you've found a source that says that in their own words. You can certainly keep looking. Media reactions appear to be universally stating it was a manufactured controversy, while noting that skeptics still feel there's some there there. Hipocrite (talk) 00:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

WMC: You ask, "why is 'manufactured controversy' off NPOV?" Because it's an opinion--a point of view--that supports one side of a controversy, and is therefore by definition not neutral. I think you would agree that there are people out there who hold a contrary opinion, as some number of them post here. One gets the impression that the inclusion of the sentence is meant less to describe the controversy than use the article to argue in favor of a position.

If we are to include editorials and opinion-based magazine articles, including balancing opinions would definitely appear to be in order. DGaw (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey: I would also note it's not clear to me what "manufactured controversy" means, here. It appears clear that there are people who believe the leak revealed evidence of professional malpractice, and people who believe it did not. Regardless of who is right, and what investigations determine, the disagreement between these groups appears to represent real controversy. What was manufactured? DGaw (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The plain meaning of "manufactured" is obvious, that this is a phony scandal, concocted by skeptics. More importantly, I disagree with Hipocrite's moving the Economist text out of the lead. It's needed for balance. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

And I have a real problem with the fact that you misrepresented the Economist's views. Please review your initial sentence regarding .3% and determine if it's saying that the review should have looked at more emails, or if it's saying something else. I have real problems with you taking the IP at face value. You are responsible for all of your edits - and this one was irresponsible. Hipocrite (talk) 00:21, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If you feel it's wrong or misstated, feel free to fix it. However, I do think something from the Economist, or some other publication, is needed for balance in the lead. NPOV concerns can't just be shrugged off. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure, as soon as someone can find a source that says it's not a manufactured controversy, we can put that up there. Of course, we could use the Economist to say that skeptics remain unsatisfied - I'd be fine with that as the counterpoint to the media saying they think it was manufactured. Hipocrite (talk) 00:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not necessary to find a source that says it's "not a manufactured controversy." The declaration that it is, however, is a point-of-view, and it is necessary to either balance the article with alternate opinions or strike those that are unbalanced. Question for those who believe this belongs: in what way do you believe the opinion that it was a "manufactured controversy" improves the article? - DGaw (talk) 00:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Hip, that's not the only comment that needs to be balanced. Also I tend to feel that the paragraph is becoming unwieldy for the lead. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Dgaw, to answer your question: I think the fact that two reputable, influential, mass-circulation publications use nearly identical and very strong language to refer to Climategate is extremely important for this article and deserves a mention (if not at current length) in the lead. Both articles, especially the Times, raise a significant point: which is that Climategate is harmful to the public interest by falsely discrediting a cause of great public importance. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

ScottyBerg: You sort of touch on my concern, here. As you know, the purpose of Wikipedia is not to "advance the public interest" or address issues of "great public importance." While we all might have strongly held opinions about the controversy, it should be impossible to determine from the article. Hence: "Wikipedia is not a soapbox". Our job as editors is to describe the controversy without taking a position. While not perfect, the first section seems to do a reasonable job of maintaining a neutral POV--right up until the last paragraph, where it run off into opinion. - DGaw (talk) 01:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec)DGaw, the idea that it's a 'manufactured controversy' is supported by the results of the various investigations. The sources simply provide the label. More to the point, this conclusion is attributed, and the alternative view is also represented. The alternative view is less notable, since it's based not on the investigations, but rather on people saying "not good enough". Oddly reminiscent of their response to all evidence for climate change. Guettarda (talk) 00:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Guettarda: I agree that the results of the investigations are encyclopedic, and belong in Wikipedia. It's less clear that the opinion that those results represent a "manufactured controvery" is similarly appropriate. Simply providing a label that is POV is perfectly OK in an op-ed, but not in an encyclopedia. - DGaw (talk) 01:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

These are not op-eds but the editorial voices of both publications. I think that's an important distinction. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

That opinions happen to come from reporters and editors who work at the NYT or Newsweek seems somewhat immaterial as far as neutrality is concerned. Wikipedia is held to a different standard of neutrality than are those publications, no? My sense is the article would be stronger without any of this editorializing, and that if this paragraph belongs at all, it belongs down in the Reactions section, not the intro. If, however, we're going to leave it here, I think it still needs a bit of work. The NYT and Newsweek quotes offer opinion supporting one side of the controversy, while the Economist reference simply comments on the other side, without providing a balancing opinion. I'll go ahead and cite an RS which does, and, let's see how that works. - DGaw (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of that paragraph is to add perspective to the article, by providing a fair assessment of independent media reactions. Yes, that would be the staff of reputable publications, as opposed to partisans. The question is whether it fairly represents the reaction to the studies of the scandal. Are there other notable reactions we need to include and, if so, do they make that paragraph too large? Should there be a media reactions section? ScottyBerg (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

(de-indenting) Here's another reaction article. [44]I suggest that we either add this to the lead or elsewhere, with a summary in the lead section. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

DGaw - can you explain what you mean by "it's less than clear" that this POV - present from the start, but now substantiated by the reports - should be in the article? I don't quite get the basis for your assertion. Guettarda (talk) 05:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure. As you know, Wikipedia's job is to describe a controversy, including a fair characterization of both sides, not take a side in it. Neutrally stating the positions of both sides of the disagreement, including what the reports found, is entirely appropriate. Reading the last paragraph, I instead get the impression from the tone that the editor(s) who drafted it agree with the opinions presented in the NYT and Newsweek, and are including them here to advocate for them--as if the article should persuade the reader that the scientists were right, and the skeptics were wrong. (This may not be how the editors feel--but it's how the sentence comes across.) Maybe it just needs a bit of work. - DGaw (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Certainly the controversy was "manufactured" in that the perpetrators who released the emails were deliberately provoking a scandal designed to draw the public's attention to the skeptical viewpoint of climate change, derail or at least hinder the aims of Copenhagen summit, and penetrate the insular world of CC scientists. In this they succeeded. Where this WP article is NPOV is in assuming the scientists were above reproach and the perpetrators, beyond the criminality and breach of privacy entailed in the theft and publication themselves, are maliciously spreading false accusations against the innocent. Advocacy has sometimes held sway, although I don't want to exaggerate the case--a good deal of balancing material has been allowed to stand. A fair complaint is that the opinions of some editors are markedly exhibited, whereas ideally, our opinions should be wholly hidden, Cronkite-like, behind our strict neutrality.
The Russell review examined three areas: honesty, rigour, and openness. (See p. 10, point 8.) The scientists went 2 for 3, and we need to present that as verifiably and neutrally as humanly possible. Also see p. 94, point 32: The Review found an ethos of minimal compliance (and at times non-compliance) by the CRU with both the letter and the spirit of the FoIA and EIR. We believe that this must change and that leadership is required from the University‘s most senior staff in driving through a positive transformation of attitudes. Public trust in science depends on an inherent culture of honesty, rigour and transparency. --Yopienso (talk) 05:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

As the inquiries found, the honesty and rigour of the scientists is unimpeached, climate change science has already set a level of transparency going beyond most other fields of science but the proposed openness to meet the demands of internet access and blogging is an untried experiment. As both Mann and Jones have stated, this ends emails as a quick and informal method of private discussion, and considering every word for possible misinterpretation will take time and involve extra costs which will have to be funded if progress is to be maintained. Something our article should cover. It'll be interesting to see if governments remain keen on this degree of public scrutiny of private communications. . . dave souza, talk 19:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

That is false. None of the inquiries dealt with the "rigour" of the scientists, and climate change science has set a level of hiding the raw data untried in other fields of science. (Many other fields don't make the raw data available, but climate change science is the only field where it is denied that the raw data (or even the list of ground stations) still exists, without noting that it discredits the irreproducible results.)

The Mann and Jones comments about E-mail seem relevant, but that's not the only thing going on. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to check your facts. For a start, the scientists couldn't possibly hide the raw data because they're not the collectors or keepers of the raw data. The raw data can only be hidden by the national meteorological services that are responsible for collecting and preserving them. Your claim that "none of the inquiries dealt with the 'rigour' of the scientists also has no factual basis, as the latest report specifically upheld the "rigor and honesty" of those involved.[45] Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

It is original research, but I don't see how point 18 of the executive summary is consistent with scientific rigor. Personally, I would want outside, even critical, researchers to be able to confirm my results. But that may just be my personal quirk.

The Russell review at executive summary point 8 specifies: "It is important to note that we offer no opinion on the validity of their scientific work." Some people are conflating scientific (or academic) rigour with scientific accuracy.

As for governments, the US Government has required that Barack Obama's BlackBerry automatically archive sent and received messages. I agree that it probably does make things more difficult for the President, but.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The next big question to tackle is if the reports were done by people of neutral or bipartisan viewpoints. If the investigation was done by people who agree with the CRU, what's the point in even listening to their conclusions? PokeHomsar (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

No, we don't have to tackle that question here or anywhere else. As encyclopedia writers, we do not investigate the viewpoints of individuals or engage in witch hunts based on preconceived conclusions. We leave that kind of nonsense to the pundit puppet show of Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Fox News, and their gullible, uncritical audience who lap it up, spoon after spoon, hour after hour. And it's not a coincidence that they are the very ones pushing this now debunked and discredited story. The line must be drawn here. Viriditas (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can tackle that question, if it's discussed in reliable sources. It's not absurd to conjecture that — at least for the reports requested by CRU — that the committees were selected to be people generally familiar with the scientists in question, who might be disposed toward those scientists. We can't say that if not reported in a reliable source, but we can say it if is is reported in a reliable source. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Shorter Arthur Rubin: let's add conspiracy theories to the article! I can't see how anything could possibly go wrong with that... -- ChrisO (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

We already have a conspiracy theory in the article, right there in the lede, although it's brief: "highly orchestrated, manufactured scandal". So far, no evidence has been presented to support this alleged conspiracy, but that's typical of conspiracy theories. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, we have a lot of evidence that newspapers and media outlets run by a singular entity pushed a false news story in the press which promoted false claims about climate science and misleading quotes attributed to sources who have denied making them. We also have a previous record of the same entity doing the exact same thing on other issues in the past, establishing a consistent pattern. This is academic. Viriditas (talk) 03:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Please identify the "singular entity"--I'm lost. --Yopienso (talk) 14:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Media reaction section?

I wonder if there's any interest in building a "media reactions" section, with a cogent summary in the lead paragraph? I'm not around for much of the next week, but perhaps others could do this. I think it would be helpful to have a thorough discussion of the media analysis, so as to provide a bit of context, especially on its impact on GW generally. More can be made of the Christian Science Monitor article, for instance, and the recent Guardian article should be cited if that hasn't already been done. The objective is to provide a representative sampling of media reaction, which I would define as reaction by professional journalists and not reaction by partisans/scientists/activists. My initial observation is that the US media seems more to take the "they've been exonerated" stance, while the UK media is more nuanced, more focused on the lack of transparency.

I was struck by the comparable and harsh wording used by Newsweek and the NY Times. I think that that needs to be specifically mentioned in the lead, in summary fashion, while expounded upon in greater detail in the separate section. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

"Media reaction" sections are generally abused by POV pushers, as such sections allow editors to cherry pick whatever opinion they want. Two examples of this problem that come to mind are Sicko and A New Beginning. What we need instead, is coverage of of the meta-media reaction, in other words, reliable sources which have analyzed the controversy as it was reported by the media. This will cover the poor reporting, the manufactured allegations, and the personal attacks that occurred as a coordinated attack against key climate scientists, which used conservative media outlets as a soapbox to push an anti-climate science agenda and pursue the scientists in the op/ed sections of certain newspapers. Yes, we need this section. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, fair point. However, I think that we need the media mentions in the article, preferably somewhere other than clustered in the lead. At the moment, the only meta article I know of was in CJR. [46] ScottyBerg (talk) 14:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The info in this paragraph from that article, Scotty, could be worked into ours; I think we've reached a consensus on everything in it except for the use of the term “Climategate.”

"In a similar vein, the 'Climategate' investigation in the U.K., which was called for by the University of East Anglia but run independently by former civil servant Sir Muir Russell, criticized climate scientists for 'a consistent pattern of failing to display the proper degree of openness' with regard to dealing with public requests for information and complying with freedom of information laws. Both the Dutch review and the Russell report are, however, just the latest in a series of reviews dispelling the notion pushed by many global-warming skeptics this winter that climate science is a corrupt field coming apart at the seams." --Yopienso (talk) 05:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem with a lot of sources is that they sound like they are repeating information from a press conference without any critical thought. Really bad MSM journalism. Then we have the hardcore right wing nuts. Guess what they write? The really critical in-depth coverage is hard to find. I would put the CJR article in the (mostly) non-critical bin. The writer is an environmental reporter with a "proven track record". Guess his focus? So what is good and what is bad? I think a "media reactions" section could work but to make it in a fair an balanced way all media reports should be cataloged and sorted and then a few representative samples selected. That's way too much work but that's what I think it would take.91.153.115.15 (talk) 17:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Dirty tricks

This topic has ratfucking written all over it, but not a single mention of the dirty tricks tactics that were used against the climate scientists. I suggest that this angle be taken up, and sources found to support its inclusion. Viriditas (talk) 23:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I found at least one source on this topic:

The irony of this story is that climate change deniers are notorious for their dirty tricks. During the Bush administration, satellite images showing the shrinking ice cover in the Arctic – an emblem of the damage done by climate change – were kept secret. In 2007, a committee on US government reform criticised systematic efforts “to censor climate scientists by controlling their access to the press and editing testimony to Congress”...The book Climate Cover-up by James Hoggan and Richard Little­more documents minutely how naysayers manipulated and fabricated data to support their position. A case in point is the way one relatively cool year (2008) – a widely predicted blip – has been used to suggest that the world is cooling when, as Ed Miliband keeps reminding us, we have had nine of the 10 warmest years on record in the past 15 years....Much of the denial industry is driven by the oil and coal industries. A conference in New York in March, entitled “Global warming: was it ever really a crisis?”, was organised by the Heartland Institute, funded by Exxon Mobil until three years ago. And a leaked memo recently revealed the much-quoted Professor Michaels is funded by an electricity company running coal-fired power stations...This lobby has succeeded in confusing the public. A recent poll in Britain suggests around one-third think the link between climate change and man-made emissions remains unproven, and 15% do not believe global warming is happening at all. The instinct for balance in the serious media is partly to blame for this because of the platform these titles give to climate change creationists and the way analysis often treats both sides equally. Meanwhile, several of the right-inclined tabloids are overtly sceptical. Recently Sir Nicholas Stern, the government adviser on the economics of climate change, compared the naysayers to “flat-earthers”. “If you look at all the serious scientists in the world, there is no big disagreement on the basics of this,” he said.[47]

Viriditas, do you have a source which specifically states that there were any "dirty tricks" here, besides the discussions among the CRU staff about strategies they could use to get away with not responding to FOIA requests? Remember, if the statute of limitations hadn't expired, Jones and others at East Anglia would now be potentially facing criminal prosecution. Also, the emails help show the concerted, behind-the-scenes effort to get Amman's paper, which helped "save" the hockey stick, published in time for it to be used in the IPCC report. Some of these efforts appear to have attempted to subvert the peer-review process, although not enough, evidently, to result in a finding by the investigations. There are "dirty tricks" on both sides. We should report on all them as they appear in reliable sources. I think when the first books start coming out in a few months we'll have ample sources and information to do so. Cla68 (talk) 00:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

"I suggest that this angle be taken up, and sources found to support its inclusion." No, no, no. That's a recipe for a bad article. Instead, you read your sources first, and then base your article content on the sources, not the other way around. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, the campaign being waged against climate science and climate scientists is well documented and has been going on for years. This topic is only the latest example. The angle I am talking about is already well sourced, and should become a part of this narrative. Viriditas (talk) 02:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but you should be cognizant of WP:SYN issues. In any case, we should start with the sources first, not seek out sources to support some pre-conceived notion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Viriditas, I haven't seen much documentation on "dirty tricks" used by the sceptical lobby, besides blog posts in RealClimate and DeSmogBlog. If you're talking about fake grass-roots groups set up by lobbying interests, I haven't seen much in any sources stating that they had anything to do with what these scientists were saying to each other in these emails. It's true that Mann, Jones, and some of the others did appear to have a siege mentality, but most of their ire was directed at McIntyre and others who had legimitate concerns, including papers published in peer-reviewed journals, criticizing their work. That's one of the reasons for Mann's famous email diatribe against that science journal which printed a paper he didn't approve of. No dirty tricks there, at least from the sceptical side. In my opinion, the main story here is not dirty tricks by the sceptical side, but the constant, ongoing tug of war going on over the veracity and credibility of the hockey team's and CRU's research methods, using tree rings, weather reporting stations, etc., and how the data was collected. This story isn't well represented in this article but I expect that forthcoming books will explore it more completely. Cla68 (talk) 02:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I do agree that environmental issues bring up some rather dirty tricks and there is some merit in including this as background information. But the thing is dirty tricks go both ways. I remember being recruited (unsuccessfully) into a environmental group that used tricks such as breaking and entering, vandalism, sabotage of day-to-day operations etc etc. Big business of course also tries to protect its interests but in general legal means suffice. With the exception of heated debate and bizarre arguments this has been a mostly disorganized war of words. Also I don't get the logic of blaming oil and coal while missing the point that the nuclear lobby is winning. We just got 3 new nuclear power plants approved here in Finland. Thank you climate change!91.153.115.15 (talk) 07:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• The source Viriditas has found is from the early days of this topic, and while it does state "This is a reference to “Climategate”, the row over leaked emails... The irony of this story is that climate change deniers are notorious for their dirty tricks.", it's a comment piece by Anne Johnstone whose credentials are unknown to me. As and when better sources analysing this aspect are found, we can duly consider the reliability of these sources and as appropriate add a summary of their statements to the article. A couple worth examining: Part two: How the 'climategate' scandal is bogus and based on climate sceptics' lies | Environment | guardian.co.uk, and Part 11: 'Climategate' was PR disaster that could bring healthy reform of peer review | Environment | guardian.co.uk, to be read with the linked response by Santer. . . dave souza, talk 08:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Dave, I've sent a note to Anne Johnstone regarding her credentials. No idea when or if she will respond. Meanwhile, you will appreciate this later column of hers. Note the paragraph beginning "Ergo..." that discusses what we call undue weight. --Yopienso (talk) 08:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

At first skim, "The irony about the UEA story is that, if anyone is routinely manipulating data, it’s the deniers" is an interesting comment. A bit old now, there's a more up to date news story in The Herald. . .dave souza, talk 09:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. My object was in reading more of Johnstone, not in reading more about "Climategate" (as both Johnstone and the anonymous author of the 8 Jul 2010 report call it.) My thought was that you would consider her a RS. The "Ergo..." paragraph speaks of overdone "fairness and balance." Johnstone herself has no worries about balance as she rushes to defend the CRU's honesty and rigour and disparage those who questioned it. She offers insightful comments on how the CRU should adjust to the 21st century with its attendant cares of transparency and public relations. The even-keeled tone of the report to which you link, though differing nothing in substance, is more to my personal taste and what I'd like to see at WP. --Yopienso (talk) 09:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

As most of you know The Guardian published a series of articles, 12 in total, by Fred Pearce. Highly recommended reading! While there is no lack of material it also presents a great opportunity to pick and choose soundbites. The articles are quite nuanced. Has anyone read the book he wrote? I've heard very little about it.91.153.115.15 (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

The Grauniad articles are poor, in my opinion [48] William M. Connolley (talk) 08:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

My feeling is that Fred Pearce has problems with going too far in being "fair and balanced", which has put me off buying his book. However, the newspaper report series is still one of the better sources on the controversy, so far. . dave souza, talk 09:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with Viriditas. This is viewed by many, and possibly titled at one point, as a "hacking" scandal. It was correct not to make that the title, but there could be more on the illicit aspects, if sourcing exists. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

  The police investigation is ongoing, and as is normal in the United Kingdom the police do not say much until they have completed their investigation, except for instance to make appeals for witnesses to crimes. So there's nothing much to say. --TS 00:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Cla68, I meant it when I said we won't be using books written by cranks as reliable sources on factual matters on Wikipedia. --TS 00:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Tony, to be honest, that sounds like censorship of views and opinions you don't approve of. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it's the minimum requirement for representation of verifiable facts.

Books by cranks can be cited to represent the views of the cranks, where it is appropriate to do so, and with consideration to due weight. So for instance we wouldn't want to give anything like as much space in this article to a book on the subject by a blogger without any qualifications as to a report by a committee of experts who have interviewed the principals and deliberated on the charges.

Note my correct distinction here and in my previous comment on how we source facts on Wikipedia. --TS 00:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. This is not censorship of disapproved views and opinions; it's a necessary focus on mainstream reliable sources. The situation might be different if the book had been written by an established scientist with a publication history in this field, or perhaps even if it had been written by a mainstream journalist. But a debut book by a blogger with no relevant qualifications is a very different kettle of fish, particularly when the view it presents is decisively rejected by the experts and when the book itself has been ignored in print outside a very small circle of like-minded individuals. This is a simple issue of basic quality control. We wouldn't use a book by a creationist blogger in an article about evolution, nor one by a moon landing conspiracy theorist in an article about the Apollo programme. The fact that fellow creationists or moon landing conspiracy theorists make favourable comments about such books would not by itself make such a book a reliable source, nor one worth citing. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Both are you are at odds with our RS guideline, which is why your views amount to censorship, IMO. The question is not if to use sources like those, if published by independent publishing houses, but how. Cla68 (talk) 00:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. Don't forget that WP:RS requires sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. WP:FRINGE/PS also applies in this situation, since Montford argues a pseudoscientific POV: "editors should be careful not to present [pseudoscientific] views alongside the scientific consensus as though they are equal but opposing views." -- ChrisO (talk) 00:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please name the book we're discussing here? I know I'm a bit behind in my talk page reading, but I read through the conversation here and I found no previous reference to a book. Perhaps I missed it. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:22, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The Hockey Stick Illusion by Andrew Montford ("Bishop Hill"). Currently under discussion at Talk:The Hockey Stick Illusion and WP:RSN#Can the book The Hockey Stick Illusion be used. Basically, Cla68 and Marknutley are pushing for it to be used as a source, while lots of other editors disagree. This has prompted a very lengthy discussion of the book's reliability and suitability as a source. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Cla68 if you think either of us is at odds with the reliable sources guideline, I suggest you read it again. It is a question of if as much as how we use a source. Firstly we don't ever use unreliable sources for factual statements, least of all where factual claims are contradicted by more reliable sources. Secondly we don't give undue weight to sources that represent a fringe point of view. This includes but is not limited to those that allege a conspiracy in the face of the evidence as judged by the preponderance of reliable sources on the facts.

So the fact that a minority view exists should certainly be mentioned, but that should not be given undue weight, and detail may be inappropriate. Where a factual claim (rather than an opinion) is asserted by a source such as a blogger with no competence on the facts, particularly where that factual claim is contradicted by more competent, reliable sources, the factual claim cannot be asserted as a fact on Wikipedia. Finally, where the only source for an opinion or factual claim is crank books and blogs, we may not source some crank sources at all (and I suggest that this will often be the case here, where a very, very conclusive result had been found). But we'd have to have a specific source and a specific citation form to discuss before we can be sure.

In reply to Scotty, I have no specific example in mind and I don't think Cla68 has one as yet. Cla68 seems to be thinking of future books that support his unorthodox take on the facts. We've had problems in the past with editors including Cla68 trying to cite unreliable sources, I think on one of the articles about the IPCC. --TS 01:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Tony, you might have missed the discussions elsewhere on using The Hockey Stick Illusion as a source. Cla68 is specifically pushing to use it as a source in a range of articles. See my comment to Scotty above for links. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Chris, I needed a laugh. From a glance, Cla68 appears to be advocating exactly what I feared he planned to do: that we cite a book written by a non-expert to support a factual statement. Is that correct, Cla68? --TS 01:41, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to mention Talk:Hockey stick controversy#New source, where Cla68 makes his view pretty clear at the outset. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, looking at the discussion I see that I did comment. Cla68 unashamedly states his opinion that by virtue of being a book the Montford work is a more reliable source on the hockey stick than blog postings written by climate scientists including Zorita and von Storch who have written peer reviewed papers on the subject. Honestly I'd forgotten all about it. --TS 01:58, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

"The Climategate Whitewash Continues"

Opinion piece by Patrick Michaels:[49] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Is there a point to this, other than pushing your own agenda? OpEds are not reliable sources, as you should know by now. Tarc (talk) 15:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

They are a reliable source for the opinion of the source, in this case the Patrick Michaels, who is notable. If this is not the case, then material sourced to Revkin, Monbiot and other commentators have to go as well. WVBluefield (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Are the others specifically from the Opinion section, as this one is? Revkin and Monibot's do not appear to be so, but if there are problems with using them as sources, the solutino is not to pile on worse ones. What I object to here is this sort of simplistic link-dropping, a "look at me, I found someone out there who supports my point-of-view!" thing. That's all that this is here, soapboxing, with no suggestion for how, why, or, where it would be included in the article. That is what his page here is for, discussing article inclusion, not link-bombing the OpEd du jour. That's the kind of stuff we used to have to deal with the dearly-departed Grundle2600 in the Obama-related articles. Tarc (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with including a mention of this article somewhere. It seems to be a comprehensive enunciation of that point of view. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that as one of the few actual climate scientists with such extreme views Patrick Michaels' combination of qualifications, experience and willingness to go on the record with those views combine to make a good case for mentioning that article. --TS 02:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)