Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

Yet another edit to the lead without consensus.

This edit to the lead, which is not discussed, moves the word "many" from being a descriptive term about the people who "suggested that it was intended to sabotage the then imminent December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit." to being a descriptive term about the scientists that consider it a smear campaign. This is a violation of Wikipedia:FRINGE#Particular_attribution. I don't quite know why people are making substantive changes to the lead without attempting to reach consensus or explicitly offering to revert their changes, and not even disclosing these substantive edits in their edit summaries. Ahh well. Hipocrite (talk) 18:42, 12 January 2010 (UTC)= (e/c)Maintaining the basic meaning of the lede, as a summary of the article, is made more difficult by misleading edit summaries like this one. "More descriptive, better flow" you would not expect to describe moving the word "many" from describing those who have "suggested that it was intended to sabotage COP15" to describing the number of "other scientists" who disapprove of the attack (I paraphrase here). If Heyitspeter (talk) feels that that wording better summarises the cited information in the body of the article (which it doesn't), the place to state a case would have been here, not under the cover of such a misleading edit summary. --Nigelj (talk) 18:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

What we’ve got here is a failure to AGF. First, the original sentence was long and rambling. Heyitspeter’s edit broke it into two, more easily digestible sentences and moved the word “many”. The break into two sentences matches the edit summary “better flow”. As for the word many, it then (and now) modifies a phrase including only two names. The lede isn’t referenced (that’s acceptable) so we look for sabotage in the main article and we find it, with one reference attached. The reference is bad, but purports to support a claim from one person, Trenbeth. Even if you track down the right reference, I don’t think anyone would argue that Trenbeth supports the word “many”. In contrast, the first part of the sentence, where “many” was moved, does make reference to many entities. So the edit description, “more descriptive” is warranted. I think the edit is better, although there is still work to do. Reference #50 is bad, and needs to be found. Even if found, the lede mentions sabotage claims by Pachauri and Brown, but I don’t see them in the main article. SPhilbrickT 22:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you try searching for Pachauri and Brown in the main article? Hipocrite (talk) 23:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I was rushing to meet my ride, and didn't search for Brown. I now see the reference to Brown in the main text, but this just makes the situation worse. We use a very strong- value laden word like "sabotage" in the lede, but the statement supporting the lede doesn't use the word, not is it in the cited reference. We do have the word "sabotage" in the main article, but that isn't in support of the word in the lede, it is a different usage. Furthermore, we don't know for sure that the main article usage is supported by the cite, because the cite is bad. We have a sentence claiming that "many" suggest sabotage, but the related sentence doesn't use sabotage and doesn't support the usage by anyone, and only two if one argues that "undermines" justifies "sabotage" (it doesn't) but even that strained argument doesn't support "many" Two doesn't imply many. So there are lots of problems. The edit by Heyitspeter was a good edit, cleaning up a couple of the problems. Why on earth was it reverted? There's no good justification for a reversion to a version that is badly flawed.

I think it should be returned to the Heyitspeter version, I request that you undo the reversion (I'd do it myself, but I'm not quite sure how to count reversions - and there are strict limits here - however, I'm sure you can undo your own edit without problems. Do you agree?--SPhilbrickT 02:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

To explain my revert of Sirwell's latest edit, "Michael Mann, Eric Steig and Richard Somerville have described the incident as a smear campaign" is misleading, since it gives the impression that this claim was only made by these three people. Guettarda (talk) 03:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Smear Campaign

The following is currently in the lead: "The University of East Anglia, other scientists, scientific organisations, elected representatives and governments from around the world have described the incident as a smear campaign, and many, including British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, and IPCC's head, Rajendra Pachauri suggested that it was intended to sabotage the then imminent December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit."

There are a lot of things claimed in this snippet, and I don't that they are all supported by the body of the article. Who has actually called this a smear campaign:

• UEA: check
• Other scientists: some have claimed this, but a greater number of the uninvolved scientists currently in the article are quoted expressing concerns than are quoted calling it a smear campaign (note that claiming "this doesn't affect the science" is distinct from calling it a smear campaign). At best, this should say "some other scientists".
• Scientific organizations: the only scientific organization quoted in the article that claims anything like this is the AGU. At best, the accurate statement would be "one scientific organization"
• Elected representatives and governments from around the world: Not at all in the current article. The only person quoted making a statement at all like this is Gordon Brown, and it's hard to extrapolate "representatives and governments from around the world" from one person.

I don't think that this sentence is at all justified by the body of the article, and I don't see why the opinions of several scientists that did have concerns don't merit a significant mention. Oren0 (talk) 05:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The above referred to this revision. I since modified the lead in this edit. I believe the current lead better meets WP:NPOV and is more in line with the content of the article. Oren0 (talk) 05:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Oren0. Sirwells (talk) 06:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In defense of the following sentence: "[S]ome scientists have described the incident as a smear campaign...[s]ome other scientists have stated that the incident reflects a problem", in the Climatologist section I count 4 responses from uninvolved scientists indicating 'smear campaign' (Wegley, Pierrehumbert, Karoly, and Pitman) and 3 who claim it indicates a problem (Michaels, Curry, Von Storch). Both points of view, plus the one that it doesn't affect AGW science, are all significant in the article and should therefore all be mentioned in the lead. Oren0 (talk) 07:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

1. And what's your defense for the conversion of decent prose into bad prose?
2. I take it that you satisfied yourself that before you chose to count names in this article, you satisfied yourself that this is representative of the balance of what's been said? I take it that you're not using this article as your source? Guettarda (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Please be civil.--Heyitspeter (talk) 00:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I note that your edit to the lead again violated Wikipedia:FRINGE#Particular_attribution, in that that you again attribute the Copenhagen disruption to merely two of the multiple citations. Please correct this. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 11:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

@Hipocrite: I didn't change the attribution of the Copenhagen statement. It is exactly as it was in the Guettarda's previous version. @Guettarda #1: If you think my writing is bad, please improve it or suggest how I might do so. I don't claim to be the world's best writer but the previous revision contained a 50+ word sentence that I found very unpleasant to read and I find my revision more readable. But I have no ego about such things, so feel free to fix it and I don't believe such a fix would count as a reversion. @Guettarda #2: The lead should be representative of the article. I have made the reactions mentioned in the lead reflect the major ones in the "reactions" section. If you think that section is unbalanced, then that section should change first and then the lead should change to reflect that. Oren0 (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

That's not accurate, Oren0 - specifically, your edit here removed "and many, including," which makes it appear that only Brown and Pachauri suggested that it was intended to sabotage. Hipocrite (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right, I did change the meaning there. But I don't believe that "many" is sourced in the article. Currently, the only people in the article who make this claim are the two in the lead and Trenberth. Are there others quoted as saying this in reliable sources, or are there sources that claim that many people have said this? If so, those sources should be in the article. As it stands, I don't think the "many" claim is justified by the body of the article. Oren0 (talk) 21:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The lead should summarise the article. That's not the same as saying "the lead should consist of original research drawn from the article. Guettarda (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The use of "Smear" in this context is confusing and probably linguistically incorrect. The supposed hacking of the information itself could not be said to be a smear campaign, even by the definition of a smear campaign from a very general point of view. By the comments of those closely involved, the disemination of information was not coordinated in any specific sense. The Hackers (if you will) simply released thousands of emails and other documents into the wind with no specific focus on any of them. Now it could possibly be said that some have taken the information and presented it in a way that is considered to be a "Smear Campaign", however to take that approach changes the focus of the article from a simply hacking incident to the more commonly used term "Climategate" which could then, by definition, be called a smear campaign. The other alternative is that the information release was done by a whistle-blower in an attempt to discredit EAU and the named scientists, but under this alternative, it also becomes "Climategate". So, "Smear Campaign" should not be used because it does not correctly follow the meme that is currently being presented. Arzel (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The paragraph as rewritten was putting undue emphasis on the "smear campaign" statement, though a number of commentators have noted the attacks being made on the reputations of scientists rather than credible attacks on the science. To emphasise more significant points, I've changed it to "The University of East Anglia and climate scientists have described these interpretations as incorrect and misleading, with the extracts being taken out of context in what has been described as a smear campaign." The sentence "Some other scientists have stated that the incident reflects a problem with scientists not being open with their data." promotes a fringe view without giving the clear expert majority view that 95% of the data is publicly available, the remainer being witheld by national met offices and not be the scientists concerned. I've rephrased it as "Though nearly all climate data is freely available, a number of scientists have said that the incident reflects a general problem of scientists not being more open with their data." Of course there has been a subtext of complaint that the scientists were not more open with their private emails, and we need to clarify the context of that. As for the meme of "Climategate", that is essentially a one-sided partisan label and needs no further promotion from us. . . dave souza, talk 19:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The sentence "Some other scientists have stated that the incident reflects a problem with scientists not being open with their data." promotes a fringe view without giving the clear expert majority view that 95% of the data is publicly available. What evidence do you have that this is a fringe view? We currently quote 3 climatologists, two of whom are not AGW skeptics, making this claim in the response section. Again, the lead must summarize the article. If you think the response section is giving undue weight, fix it there first and then the lead should reflect that. As for "Climategate" in the lead, that has been discussed to death and there has been a consensus that as the most common term in reliable sources it belongs in the lead. You're welcome to bring this up again of course but if you do I ask that you do it in a separate section as it's unrelated to this discussion. Oren0 (talk) 21:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Your wording presents it as if it were an either/or case, which it isn't. Your presentation also gives equal weight to both opinions, when in fact, few people appear to have said much about the "open with data" idea. It may or may not be a fringe view, but it's certainly not a view that deserves equal - or even roughly equivalent - weight. Guettarda (talk) 22:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

If "people appear to have said much about the "open with data" idea", then why are both UEA and Mann's university both launching investigations? This is a major theme of this incident. Madman (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

@Guettarda: I feel like I'm repeating myself here. About as many scientists are currently quoted in the article expressing this "trouble with data openness" idea as are quoted claiming "smear campaign" (3 and 4, respectively). Therefore, the two should be presented roughly equally in the lead. If you think the article should be proportioned differently, propose that. But the lead is currently an accurate representation of the views in the article, in proportion to the number of people quoted who make them. Oren0 (talk) 03:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The lead should accurately reflect the article, yes. But not so as to be misleading. The article uses illustrative quotes. One of the unfortunate side-effects thereof is may be to create a false sense of equivalence. Not good, but difficult to avoid. When writing the lead, we need to take that into account. The lead needs to represent the article, but it really needs to be written with an eye to the underlying sources. To count quotes in an article and then use that to determine due weight is deeply misleading. It's taking the article as a data source, and using it to come to a conclusion about notability. That's totally unacceptable. Guettarda (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence

Why is Climategate removed from the lead sentence over and over again by some authors? Ok, they hate it, but it's established beyond doubt that this is the name used by (nearly?) everyone including (most of?) the (AGW standing) Newspapers. So please restore "Climategate" in the lead section as a compromise since some of the newspapers uses that. Who coined it has nothing to do in the first lead section by WP:UNDUE. And it should be in bold per WP:BOLDTITLE

Proposal change from "The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 with" to Climatic Research Unit hacking incident (commonly known as "Climategate") came to light in November 2009 with". Nsaa (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree. The most common term in reliable sources shouldn't be buried. Oren0 (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Except that most reliable sources don't call it that. So we shouldn't either. Guettarda (talk) 21:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Why is it inserted over and over? It's not the name of the thing. Most reliable sources use it in quotes. The name is part of an attempt to spin the thing into a made-up scandal. And we really shouldn't be using Wikipedia for advocacy. Clear enough? Guettarda (talk) 21:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - "Climategate" already appears in the article's introduction in a non-neutral manner. I see no compelling reason for it to be in the first sentence, since there would not be room for the necessary explanation of the term to be included. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

  There is no need for a detailed explanation in the lead. Arzel (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree - "Climategate" should be the article title. That is how sources on both sides of the issue refer to it. It is how the Wall Street Journal and MIT refer to it. Since a number of POV pushers won't allow that, it should be in the first sentence. Oh, and claiming that "Individuals who oppose action on global warming called the incident 'Climategate'" is completely bias. There is no way anyone has a reliable reference for that. Q Science (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

  Er... no. The MIT source puts "Climategate" in quotes, indicating it isn't their own usage. The WSJ only uses it in the title of that opinion piece, and the WSJ is tainted by the small matter of its biased owner. And we aren't even talking about the title in first place. And referring to fellow Wikipedians as "POV pushers" does not assume good faith. Fail all around, really. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

  In titles, many people use quotes to draw attention to a specific word. This is frequently done because bold and Capitalization can not be used to set off a word in a title. Through out the rest of the article, the word is used with capitalization to set it off, and without quotes. If you watch the "The Great Climategate Debate" video (2 hrs, at the bottom of the page), you will here the term "Climategate" used regularly by people on both sides of the controversy. Your claim makes no sense. As for whether or not the WSJ is biased, that is irrelevant. It is a reliable source for this type of information. And there are hundreds of others. (Such as Climategate: Anatomy of a Public Relations Disaster published at Yale.) It appears that the only people not using "Climategate" are those trying to do damage control. Specifically, people with a very strong POV, such as Greenpeace and the embarrassed University, refuse to use the term. Q Science (talk) 08:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree - There is little doubt that "Climategate" is the primary reference to this incident. I had not even heard of the other terms "Swifthack" and one I can't remember until I saw it being discussed here. Regardless of whether the scientists actually did hide or delete data or did manipulate the review process, the general concensus is that what they did was not quite right. Arzel (talk) 00:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

  Regardless of what you may think, we simply cannot use this POV term without some explanation. There is not enough room in the first sentence to do that explanation any justice. The current treatment is perfectly acceptable. Also, your "general consensus" about their actions is complete nonsense. Their reaction to McIntyre's badgering was perfectly reasonable. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:47, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

  "POV term" used by everyone? The term do not need an explanation more than that it's commonly used? The first paragraphs don't explain things, it's just a summary of the article without citations (which should be present further down in the main body of the article) Nsaa (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

  (e.c) Swifthack has only one WP:RS source and some 10 more blogs referring to it. Terms like Warmergatedailymail,E-mail-theft-gate (used by Senator_Barbara_Boxer ) [6], Climate Denier Gate [7], Climategate controversy Scientific American[8], Climategate scandal belfasttelegraph nearly all looks more used … Nsaa (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

So you're saying they all should be treated as names? Guettarda (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The logic here is simple. Any name that can be reliably sourced can be mentioned in the "naming" section, with proper attribution if it's only used by a small number of sources. The most major name in reliable sources (Cliategate) should get the most exposure there, and the lead, being representative of the article, should mention that name. Per the manual of style, alternate names mentioned in the lead should be bolded and appear in the first sentence. Therefore, "Climategate" should appear bolded in the first sentence, and other names should not per WP:WEIGHT. Does anyone here dispute that of all the alternate names "Climategate" is used in more reliable sources by at least one order of magnitude? Oren0 (talk) 17:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no policy (or even guideline) that states (or even suggests) that "the most major name [] should get the most exposure", nor any that say that common redirects must "appear in the first sentence." So let's have no more of this made-up "logic" okay? The term is given adequate billing in the lede, with alternative terms being banished to a section later in the article. This is consistent with the advice given at Wikipedia:Lead section#Alternative names, which quite clearly states:

"If there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves."

Not only do we have three or more alternate names ("Climategate", "Warmergate", "Swifthack"), but we also have something notable to say about them (we have already discussed the TIME article). Logically, the current arrangement is the most appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

If those other names were being used even remotely then I would agree. However, there is simply no question that "Climategate" is the by far the most widly used term. Climategate outnumbers them in reference by at least 25:1. Arzel (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Climategate is not the title - it is an alternative name (see Scjessey just above here), it shouldn't be bolded but instead described in a section on names/etymology. Let it go people, this has been discussed to death several times. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

And that means what? It is only being discussed because of some irrational fear of having it included into the lead. Arzel (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that you're only discussing it because of some irrational fear you have, but as you're not a mind reader you must assume good faith and accept that others have rational reasons for concern about undue weight being given to a propagandistic term. . . dave souza, talk 23:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

How in the world can one give undue weight to the term that is used over 95% of the time to describe the incident? And who is claiming it is a propogandistic term? I will accept rational reasons for concerns, but to this point I have yet to see any. Arzel (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you read the arguments put forward by those who see this differently. You're under no obligation to agree with other people, but it's sort of expected that you read what people have said, if you're going to engage in a discussion. It's especially rude to demand that people repeat themselves, just for you. Guettarda (talk) 05:38, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree.--Heyitspeter (talk) 23:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose per Kim, Guettarda, and Scjessey above. Using such a title poisons the well, instituting a particular assumed frame of reference that necessarily favors a particular (and possibly inaccurate) expectation of the incident. The governing policy is WP:NPOV; this primary concern has nothing to do with how many or which ideologues use the term, which is irrelevant. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree Lionelt (talk) 01:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

"Agree". A quick search finds 56 million hits to "Climategate". "Jesus" has barely twice as many. Let's please have some honesty and recognize that the continued blocking of the use of climategate is a rather obvious attempt to diminish possible impact of the event by partisan editors. Such behaviour is what brings Wikipedia into disrepute MarkC (talk) 20:34, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree JPatterson (talk) 18:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

• Agree. A analogous situation would be the nasty nickname you got in school. That's who you are known as regardless of how hard you try to persuade people with logic and reason. Crying, begging and pleading won't help you either. (IP xxx aka Flounder) 130.232.214.10 (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree..the way that the benefactors of the MMGW fraud are bullying honest people who want to expose the evil at East Anglia University and indeed amongst the entire MMGW obsessed crowd. You're telling me calling it a hacking incident doesn't completely erroneously suggest that the negligent scientists are in fact the victims here? And all this when they've been victimizing honest working people for over a decade? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.158.136 (talk) 13:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Er... thanks for that, but I think the opinion of someone referring to the work of university researchers as "evil" can be safely ignored. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Problems with "Naming of the incident" section

This section opens with a quote from "Fact Check", which seems to have nothing to do with the history of the name.

Here's the FC quote in full:

Analysis Skeptics claim this trove of e-mails shows the scientists at the U.K. research center were engaging in evidence-tampering, and they are portraying the affair as a major scandal: "Climategate." Source

Note that the title of Fact Check's article is “Climategate” -- our quote (by my reading) simply reiterates the article name. So this quote appears inappropriate for this section's lede.

The entire section appears overweight and, to my eye, appears to exist mainly to provide a justification for removing Climategate from the article lede. Am I missing something? --Pete Tillman (talk) 04:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a source that has been seen as neutral by editors of different sympathies in the debate, and its analysis of the debate clearly indicates that the term is used in "portraying the affair as a major scandal" rather than a tempest in a teapot, as others would have it. The section describes naming of the incident, and the WP:LEAD summarises the content of the article so, if anything, the section provides justification for the inclusion of "climategate" in the lead. The views of any other similarly neutral observers on this topic will also be welcome provided of course that they're attributable, so do please find sources we can add. . . dave souza, talk 17:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I note the present wording, "Individuals who oppose action on global warming called the incident Climategate, which became a commonly used term for the incident." Um, seriously? "Individuals who oppose action on global warming" named the incident "Climategate"? Um, it just got called that by the media, and those who don't like the name probably just need to get over it. This is original research, and bias, and just plain wrong. Alex Harvey (talk) 04:18, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It does seem to be a rather blatant example of poisoning the well. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty well established that the term was coined by anti-science activists in the blogosphere. The media latched onto it because it's catchy and because they're lazy - they didn't coin it. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

This very article suggests that it isn't well-established. --Heyitspeter (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty well established? You say that, giving not a single piece of evidence, just like the article. What evidence can there be; RealClimate didn't use the term, ergo...? Evidence, please. This is sheer fantasy. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I wonder how the newly minted "glaciergate" can be compared with "climategate" in relation to the naming issue? I would suggest that an editor create such an article. Ref.[9] P.S. I sincerely hope I haven't screwed anything up as this is my first edit on wikipedia. 130.232.214.10 (talk) 14:39, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yet another pov name for an issue, one that's covered at Criticism of the IPCC AR4. . dave souza, talk 18:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Fact Check citation inappropriate for subsection: proposed removal

This discussion got kind of de-railed. I take your point to be that the Fact Check article doesn't appear to be asserting that skeptics named the incident "Climategate" in that quote, and that it should be taken out of that section. Is that fair? If so I'd agree.--Heyitspeter (talk) 20:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't say whether or not skeptics introduced the term, it does express the view that they're using the name and why. A neutral finding. . . dave souza, talk 20:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it doesn't say that skeptics use the term. Re-read? It's weirdly phrased.--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It's clear enough–"Skeptics claim this trove of e-mails shows the scientists at the U.K. research center were engaging in evidence-tampering, and they are portraying the affair as a major scandal: "Climategate.".... We find such claims to be far wide of the mark." Clearly that's what they're portraying it as, and the name they're using. Pretty obvious. . . dave souza, talk 18:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course they're using the name - that isn't informative. Even MIT is using the name. As this section is about the "naming of the incident," and not "the way the incident is being referred to," we should remove that sentence. Agreed on this count? I'm willing to cede on your interpretation if/given that the removal stands on these (separate) grounds.--Heyitspeter (talk) 01:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm willing to accept your concession, but consider this independent source on the naming and framing of the "controversy" a useful clarification which belongs at the start of the naming section. The fact that MIT World™ used the term in announcing a debate doesn't mean that MIT have officially adopted the term, and is synthesis – if you can find a third party analysis stating that the term has entered the mainstream, that would be useful. However, picking examples, expecially where reporters distance themselves from the term by using inverted commas for "climategate", is original research and not the way to go. Hope that helps, dave souza, talk 10:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I've not picked any such examples...

Be that as it may, and backed by a rather ingenious double deployment of "modus tollens+the two preceding comments" and modus ponens, here I go:

It simply isn't true that

Skeptics claim this trove of e-mails shows the scientists at the U.K. research center were engaging in evidence-tampering, and they are portraying the affair as a major scandal: 'Climategate.'

means

Skeptics are using or have named the affair 'Climategate'.

To argue the contrary one must break WP:OR. The sentence is uninformative and irrelevant to the section. It should go. QED.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/28/cru_foia_guilty/ - UK Authorities wanted to prosecute those at CRU, but loopholes in law wouldn't allow it. The 'email hacking' incident has uncovered highly suspect behavior, regarding evasion of FOI requests, prompting a desire to change relevant laws. "The leaked emails are widely believed to be the work of an insider in response to the delaying tactics." I and many people have commented on this issue, THAT THE HACKING INCIDENT WAS NOT VERIFIED AND THAT THE MEDIA REPORTS SUGGESTING SUCH WERE UNFOUNDED.128.61.127.19 (talk) 17:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Death threats redux

I would like to propose two changes to the article. Firstly, I would like to change the following sentence of the lede:

"Law enforcement agencies are investigating the matter as a crime, and are also investigating death threats that were subsequently made against climate scientists named in the e-mails."

I would like to replace this with:

"Law enforcement agencies are investigating the matter as a crime, and also subsequent threats made against climate scientists named in the e-mails."

It shortens what I believe to be an awkward-sounding sentence, but also removes the "death" qualifier. Not all of the threats made against the climate scientists were death threats. With that in mind, my second proposed edit is to change the section header "Death threats" to just "Threats". -- Scjessey (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Can I take it from the silence that nobody objects? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

While I've some sympathy with your proposals in principle, the proposed short sentence seems grammatically odd, and doesn't say what anyone's doing about the "subsequent threats". As a first stab at it, "Law enforcement agencies are investigating the matter as a crime, with reference to the unauthorised release itself and to various threats that were subsequently made against climate scientists named in the e-mails." . . dave souza, talk 15:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

That seems a bit wordy. Here's an alternative:

"Law enforcement agencies are investigating the unauthorized release as a crime, as well as subsequent threats made against climate scientists named in the e-mails."

How does that sound? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. How about "Law enforcement agencies are investigating."? It's short, simple, to the point, and without the WP:NPOV violation. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused. What NPOV violation? -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? Most WP:RS hardly mention the death threats. Featuring them so prominently in the lede is giving undo weight to them. This has been brought up numerous times before and is one of the reasons why there's a NPOV tag on the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know why someone is trying again to push this into the article as thought it has high importance or relevance. Seems like a desperate attempt to generate sympathy to me. JettaMann (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed, I actually removed the "death threats" aspect from the text. I'm not trying to push anything. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

It's curious that some people (not you, Scjessey) apparently don't want to say what the police are investigating... -- ChrisO (talk) 21:39, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. It's pretty obvious that what they're investigating. For example, "Last Tuesday, armed gunmen broken into a bank and stole 8 million dollars. Police are investigating." Is it really necessary to say that they're investigating the bank robbery? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

<ri> Probably better with "Law enforcement agencies are investigating the unauthorised release as a crime. After the release some critics issued threats against climate scientists named in the e-mails, and these threats are also being investigated as crimes." Looks a bit clearer to me. . . dave souza, talk 11:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

"The police are investigating the unauthorised release as a crime; they are also investigating threats that were subsequently made against climate scientists named in the e-mails." Suggestion made for grammar and style. Although it isn't a big deal for me, I'd prefer "police" to "law enforcement agencies", which sounds American to my ears. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

You make a good point about "law enforcement" sounding American. I'm not a fan of "they are also" constructs, and I'm not all that excited about having the word "investigating" twice in the same sentence. An alternative:

"The police are conducting a criminal investigation into the unauthorised release and threats subsequently made against climate scientists named in the e-mails."

Is that in improvement? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. BTW I think "law enforcement" triggered memories of U.N.C.L.E.. But perhaps they ought to be on the case too. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll make the changes then. What's the worst that can happen? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the meaning is not so clear now. Can we say "personal threats", to distinguish the meaning from possible misunderstandings, like threats of disciplinary action, threats of losing their jobs etc. Also (and this is a normal question - I think I missed it) where is the discussion where we agreed that this was not in fact a theft, but an "unauthorised release"? That phrase makes the new sentence harder to parse too. --Nigelj (talk) 15:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

We didn't agree it was an unauthorised release rather than a theft. We've never agreed anything, have we? But it is neutral and correct. "Theft" of data is inexact. It isn't defined in English law AFAIK. What we do know absolutely certainly at this point is that there was a release of data/files/computer stuff and that UEA didn't authorise it. So my view is that "unauthorised release" is good enough. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

As far as i know "data theft" is defined in British law, and at least the e-mails are covered under the Data Protection Act. And as for "release" - please see several discussions where this wording was discarded. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a standard term (see [10]), and the sources are clear that the data in question was stolen, so I don't know why "release" is being used. If money is stolen from a bank it's not an "unauthorised release" of cash, is it? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring over the language is stupid, people. All I did was propose that we cut out the "death" aspect of it (because not all the threats were death threats), and then after some discussion we came to what seemed a reasonable solution. And then you all had to edit war over it, because that's apparently the way things work around here. If people are unhappy with "unauthorized release" then discuss it here like adults instead of edit warring. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Compromise proposal

Right now, it says:

"The police are conducting a criminal investigation into the data release as well as into personal threats made against some of the climate scientists mentioned in the documents."

How about as a compromise, we change it to the following:

"The police are conducting a criminal investigation into the matter, as well as into personal threats made against some of the scientists mentioned in the documents."

Will that make everyone happy? -- Scjessey (talk) 21:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Try "The police are conducting a criminal investigation of the server breach and subsequent personal threats made against some of the climate scientists mentioned in the documents." That reflects what they've said; we mustn't insinuate that they are investigating the scientists, who are the victims here. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

That seems okay to me, although I think the "climate" qualifier before "scientists" is redundant. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:54, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I've removed that word. I've also changed "documents" to "emails" - I believe the documents have been pretty much innocuous (at least I've not seen any significant coverage of them) but the threatened individuals, whom I understand are Mann and Jones, are in the limelight because of the emails. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Excellent (in best Montgomery Burns voice). -- Scjessey (talk) 19:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Nope. Still doesn't address the undue weight issue. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

What undue weight issue? -- Scjessey (talk) 22:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The one I've been talking about for the past 2-3 months. Per WP:WEIGHT, "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." Most reliable sources don't even mention the death threats when discussing this topic. Giving them such high prominence by mentioning them in the lede is giving undue weight to a minor aspect of the overall topic. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying that the death threats against the scientists aren't important in comparison to the data theft, right? You are saying these ☠ death threats ☠ are a "minor aspect", correct? Would it come as a great surprise if I told you that I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point? Try to understand the problem here. There are literally thousands of science-denying idiots furiously writing opinion pieces and blog posts that misrepresent comments made in a few private emails, doing their level best to make the biggest fuss they possibly can. Their number include "journalists" and energy-backed politicians, working hand-in-hand with a lazy media that has eschewed investigative journalism in favor of being spoon fed bite-sized chunks of convenient talking points. Meanwhile, a tiny handful of real journalists have reported that threats have been made against the lives of scientists, but their voices are drowned out by the science-denying echo chamber. So I think you have it all backward. The science-deniers represent the minority viewpoint (or "fringe"), but the reporting about the death threats is represented by a majority viewpoint, expressing indisputable truth. These threats are both real and significant, and they are covered by reliable sources. As such, they should definitely feature prominently. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

"There are literally thousands of science-denying idiots furiously writing opinion pieces and blog posts" Huh? When have you ever seen me cite an opinion piece or blog post in relation to this article? I'm afraid that you might be confusing me with someone else. I'm talking about news articles (not opinion pieces) from the high end of journalism market such as The Guardian[11], The Washington Post[12], The New York Times[13], The Times[14], Reuters[15], The Associated Press[16], Time Magazine[17], etc. most of which don't even cover this aspect it's so minor. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You have completely missed my point. I'm saying that the death threats have received meaningful coverage in reliable sources and the facts are not disputed. Also, the death threats mostly occurred after the main news cycle that covered the CRU incident, so they never received the attention they deserved; nevertheless, enough coverage exists to justify this notable information appearing in the lede. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I get your point, but it's completely wrong. The death threats have NOT received meaningful coverage in reliable sources in proportion to other aspects of this topic (see the articles I pointed to in my last post which don't even mention the death threats). Further, not only were they not widely covered by reliable sources at the beginning of the controversy, they're hardly mentioned ever since. This is a classic case of WP:UNDUE weight. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The issue that there are police investigations into the computer crime and into the various threats is significant, brief coverage in the lead as proposed is appropriate. . . dave souza, talk 14:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If the death threats are so significant, how do you account for the dearth of coverage in reliable sources? I've asked this question before and to the best of my knowledge, no one's been able to answer this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I already answered that question above. The death threats came after the initial media circus surrounding the incident. Furthermore, the death threats have not benefited from the science-deniers' echo chamber. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

"The death threats came after the initial media circus surrounding the incident." But that's not true. They were reported early on and rarely mentioned again. If you disagree, show me some articles with dates that prove otherwise.

"Furthermore, the death threats have not benefited from the science-deniers' echo chamber." So what? We're not supposed to introduce bias to counter bias of reliable sources. If reliable sources don't think it's that important, then neither do we. To do otherwise is a violation of WP:NPOV.

If you can provide an answer as to why the death threats are important enough to mention in the lede despite the dearth of coverage by reliable sources that doesn't violate WP:OR, WP:V and WP:NPOV, I'd love to hear it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget that this is now an account of a one-off historical incident. It happened about 2 months ago and the death threats happened soon after and were clearly related. This is all in the past now, and the facts of the coverage at the time is not in dispute. The only ongoing thing has been what's been called here the 'echo chamber', but that is not the incident and is increasingly irrelevant as time goes on. Just because the climate-denial echo chamber has not picked up the threats, does not make them any less significant: of course threats against personal safety are more important than threats to alter the peer-review process, or threats to delete an email, or to truncate a graph. The fact that the denial echo-chamber has not gone on and on about them does not alter the historical fact of their existence or significance at the time. Of course when the official investigations are in, or if any arrests are made, this article will come to life again, but until then we are just tidying an article on an historical event. --Nigelj (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean by "echo chamber". I'm referring to third-party, reliable sources with a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. If by "echo chamber", you mean blogs or opinion pieces, then I ask that you address what I am saying and not some magical Straw man. As for "threats against personal safety are more important than threats to alter the peer-review process", what reliable sources actually say such a thing? Honestly, that sounds like pure WP:OR. Original research is strictly forbidden in Wikipedia articles. In any case, WP:NPOV requires that we assign weight roughly in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course you know what is meant by echo chamber, unless you couldn't be bothered to read my reply above that included the link to it. Reliable sources note the death threats (I linked to one in a section below, for example), and that is all that is needed. Surely you don't think a data theft is more important than a death threat? I'd much rather have my computer files stolen than get stabbed to death, personally. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't. Echo chamber is not part of any Wikipedia policy or guideline that I am aware of. The issue of whether reliable sources mention the death threats is not in dispute, so I don't know why you mention it. Focusing on straw men only distracts from the central issue here. Again, the dispute is whether reliable sources have given so much attention to them that they are important enough to be mentioned in the lede. So far, the answer is a resounding no. "Surely you don't think a data theft is more important than a death threat" What I think is irrelevant. Again, it's not our place as Wikipedia editors to say that reliable sources are wrong. That's called WP:OR; Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. "I'd much rather have my computer files stolen than get stabbed to death, personally". Again, your personal preference is WP:OR and completely irrelevant in this context. Do you have an argument that is supported by WP:RS and doesn't involve violating WP:OR, WP:V and WP:NPOV? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Stop referring to everything I say as WP:OR. It isn't. Original research applies to articles, not comments on talk pages. There are plenty of sources that note the issue of the death threats, and also about how they are being investigated. The brief mention that the matter is afforded in this article in no way violates WP:WEIGHT, so quit saying it does. Repeatedly banging on about this, despite an overwhelming consensus for inclusion, is tendentious. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You're justifying article content based on original research. Stop doing it and I'll stop pointing it out. "The brief mention that the matter is afforded in this article" Again, that's not the issue. We're supposed to give weight in proportion to prominence in reliable sources. Most reliable sources don't even mention this aspect of the topic as I've already demonstrated several posts previously. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, that's a false argument you are using. If you actually read WP:WEIGHT, the concern is more about giving minority viewpoints (like climate change denial, for example) too much prominence. Reliable sources are more likely to give coverage to things that are controversial, but that is not the same as "prominence". The death threats are no disputed, and so they aren't controversial; nevertheless, reliable sources that have reported these facts give prominence to these threats, even if the number of reliable sources reporting about them are fewer. The fact remains that enough sources exist to justify the brief mention these threats get in the article. And since most people agree with me, I'd say that is pretty much the end of it. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you read WP:WEIGHT, it says "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints." It also applies to article content. In determining weight, we're supposed to base it on its prominence among reliable sources. Since comparatively fewer reliable sources cover this aspect (most don't mention it at all), it's a violation of WP:UNDUE to mention them in the lede.

Please stop repeating the tired straw man that this is about whether it gets mentioned in the article. No one's saying that and that's certainly nothing that I've ever said. So if that's what you think this is about, then I suggest you go back and re-read my posts a little more carefully. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Whatever. At this point you are really just talking to yourself, because there is a solid consensus for inclusion. Sorry, but there it is. Call it a case of WP:IAR if it makes you happy. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's not how consensus works. Invoking WP:IAR is a poor substitute for a valid argument. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Quest is not "just talking to himself" and there is not a solid consensus for inclusion. Look at it this way: Both the Penn State investigation and the "death threat" investigation are investigations. Neither are concluded. Both have similar arguments for / against inclusion in the article. And yet both Dave Souza and Scjessey are arguing both cases, conveniently choosing which side best suits thier POV. (apparently AGW POV is more important to them then any of the cited wikipedia rules.) It's amusing when you think about it. Sirwells (talk) 22:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, he's clearly not talking to me because I gave a full explanation above, which he somehow didn't hear. Here it is again without the metaphor that he didn't understand: Don't forget that this is now an account of a one-off historical incident. It happened about 2 months ago and the death threats happened soon after and were clearly related. This is all in the past now, and the facts of the coverage at the time is not in dispute. The only ongoing thing has been some further media discussion of allegations based on the e-mail content, but that is not the incident and is increasingly irrelevant as time goes on. Just because this coverage has not repeated much discussion of the threats, does not make them any less significant: of course threats against personal safety are more important than threats to alter the peer-review process, or threats to delete an email, or to truncate a graph. The fact that the media debate has not gone on and on about them does not alter the historical fact of their existence or significance at the time. Of course when the official investigations are in, or if any arrests are made, this article will come to life again, but until then we are just tidying an article on an historical event. --Nigelj (talk) 23:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

"Just because this coverage has not repeated much discussion of the threats, does not make them any less significant". Actually, it does. Per WP:UNDUE, weight should be attributed based on its prominence in reliable sources. By your own admission, reliable sources haven't paid much attention to the death threats. It is a violation of WP:NPOV to add weight that does not exist in reliable sources. As you point out, this is a one-off historical event. Perhaps one day, reliable sources will add such weight. But that hasn't happened yet. Until such time, mentioning the death threats in the lede is a violation of undue weight. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is just complete nonsense. The matter of the death threats was covered by reliable sources appropriately when the issue came to light. But after that, there was nothing more to say so coverage ended. This is in stark contrast to the hacking incident, which has ongoing coverage. That is why you cannot compare one with the other. At the time the story of the death threats came to light, coverage of the death threats was featured prominently in reliable sources. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It was hardly mentioned then, and it's rarely mentioned now. WP:UNDUE clearly applies. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, i see a clear and convincing argument made by Quest, evasion and casuistry by those responding.—eric 01:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Imagine this scenario fifty years hence. Suppose it turns out that Inhofe, Exxon and Fox News were able to use "Climategate" to sway public opinion and thwart all attempts at mitigating CO2 emissions. It also turns out that Mann et. al. were exactly right, the earth has now warmed precipitously and faces catastrophe. A historian in that day, trying to figure out how the hell this could have happened would surely be left scratching their head if our article were their only resource. S/he would be left to wonder how a "third rate burglary" (sorry, couldn't resist) could have derailed the march to global consensus that seemed to have been moving right along until then. Our article, with it's focus on downplaying the content and up-playing the immorality of the hack angle, can't explain the social and political impact that, right or wrong, this incident has already had (hint: I haven't seen any calls for Congress to investigate cyber-security due to this incident), much less the future impact, because it doesn't reflect reality as it exists.

In this thoughtful retrospective, Dr. Hopper strikes the proper tone. He writes, "The various [e-mail] revelations should be treated rationally and cautiously and not simply used as a blunt weapon to discredit opponents." Amen. He also writes, "Climate change science and appropriate policy responses remain crucial issues, and ultimate decisions should be made on the basis of a calm assessment of the facts rather than simply siding with whoever has captured the headlines." Couldn't agree more with this statement as well. But here he is speaking of science and policy, not the history of an incident that impacts both. For our purposes, headlines and gasp, even blogs matter, because that's where Climategate will(has) play(ed) out. If we can't or won't take note of it, we do our future readers (and WP) a real disservice. JPatterson (talk) 01:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That's just gazing into a crystal ball and it doesn't help us here. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, it's been been a while since someone last weighed in on this WP:UNDUE weight issue. Are there any valid objections to fixing this that don't involve violating WP:OR, WP:V or WP:NPOV and doesn't invoke WP:IAR? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No objections here.....Sirwells (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

In a section below, I objected to the inclusion of reference to the personal threats in the lede. Scjessey asked that I contribute my objection to this section, rather than the one below. I’ve reread the last three sections discussing this issue, and it is clear to me that the inclusion is not the result of consensus but included over the objections of several. I’ll add myself to the list of those objecting. The coverage of the threats is minor, the coverage hasn’t demonstrated that the threats were anything more than the usual idiots blustering anonymously, and the lack of any arrests or further coverage adds to the likelihood that it wasn’t any more than blustering. Should actual trials occur, I’ll be happy to revisit my conclusion. Until then, it is arguable whether it deserves any mention in the article, and certainly does not rise to the level of importance to be included in the lede. The lede should summarize the most important aspects of the incident, not coatrack everything written on the subject. SPhilbrickT 16:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable source that says that the threats were made by "the usual idiots"? Who are these idiots that they can make such threats and it doesn't count? This is an article on what is now an historical incident. The threats were made at the time and were taken seriously at the time. The passage of time does not change history. People who want to rewrite history do that, and that surely does not include any of us. --Nigelj (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Despite the promising start, I believe this discussion has degenerated into something that is unlikely to yield anything useful. I propose that we put this on the back burner while we address the "'Climategate' in the first para" issue, and then come back to this in a new section that jettisons all the animosity and trench-building above. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Reactions to the incident: Climatologists

I suggest Richard Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who explains what the CRU documents reveal: “They are unambiguously dealing with things that are unethical and in many cases illegal. … We have scientists manipulating raw temperature data. The willingness to destroy data rather than release it. The avoidance of Freedom of Information requests.” "The Great Climategate Debate", 10.Dec.2009, time index 17:25 [18] Alternatively, Mohib Ebrahim, who has compiled a 30-year pictorial history of the development of this problem [19] has said: "Science has come full-circle, taking a page from the medieval Church by using fear and persecution to silence sceptics. The oppressed have become the oppressors. Given that most professional scientific bodies and peer-reviewed journals have been active accomplices in this scandal, one wonders how many other so called scientific consensuses have been similarly engineered and waiting for their own ClimateGates before truth is known."Oiler99 (talk) 03:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, whilst I agree with you I can't see how that helps contribute to the article. 88.109.170.186 (talk) 23:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The article is quite unbalanced. Of the 15 individuals and 2 entities (UEA, MET) referenced, only one, Michaels, is unambiguously stating that the revealed conduct was reprehensible. No one states the common view that the data are now suspect. Most of those quoted are related to the Hockey Team or the IPCC. Large numbers of perfectly honest scientists are of the opinion that the conduct revealed is much more important than the mode of revelation (cf. Pentagon Papers). Linzen is particularly notable, and should certainly be represented. Perhaps the title of the article produces an unfortunate limiting bias, and there should be a separate article for CLIMATEGATE SCANDAL.Oiler99 (talk) 08:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Your view seems rather unbalanced, and the claims cited above have been refuted since that debate. Even the Telegraph now presents the view that the hacking incident was over-hyped,[20] and the idea of it being a "scandal" has been questioned. There are genuine concerns about making data and methods more freely available, but no evidence that the gossip in the emails went beyond gossip – indeed categoric statements that the data is as freely available as contracts allow, that no emails were destroyed and that the papers the scientists criticised as unsuitable still appeared in the IPCC report. A more recent and well considered statement by Linzen would be interesting, but overblown statements in an early debate are unsuitable. Perhaps the real scandal wil turn out to be the misuse and exaggeration by denialists. . . dave souza, talk 10:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"The Himalayan howler is ... much more serious than the overhyped "Climategate" row".[21] What a good job we kept our heads when all about us were losing theirs. Even the most right-wing commentary sources are backing down on this incident already, ahead of the UEA and Parliamentary inquiries. They're still trying to make something out of 'Glaciergate' though. Stupidly, it will turn out, as it's not as if the main thrust of the AR4 argument was based on that 2035 date! It was only window-dressing at the most. Wikipedia will turn out all the stronger for having maintained sensible coverage of these issues while the mad media wolves howled. Not that they will ever credit us for that, having attacked us with red tooth and claw at the time. --Nigelj (talk) 10:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia unfortunately is progressively covering itself with shame as a result of its deliberate obfuscation of this matter. Rather than turning out stronger, it's becoming an object of disdain, much to the delight of those, of every political persuasion, who predicted that it could never be a reliable source of information. Those who thought it was serving as a shining example of the value of socialism in action are now despondent. And as a practical matter, it would seem prudent to cover your bets. But no, that's not the way the Holy Office works. Oiler99 (talk) 22:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there any point to this screed? Please don't use article talk as your soap box. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Well after reading and making some suggestions on this and some other pages I have found that it helps my focus to think I'm talking with multiple clones of the Comic Book Guy. [22] But seriously, you have a point. There appears to be place for a lot of introspection for both users and editors. In the case of this article I glanced at versions of this page in Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, German, Dutch to get some perspective. The German one appears to have a similar discussion going on. The Danish one is short and to the point. The Dutch version appears focused and to the point. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, 91, the Italian treatment is excessively brief. But if an example of NPOV is needed, as it seems to be, the French account is not a bad model: admirably even-handed with a minimal AGW bias that most skeptics would not, I believe, object to: L'incident des emails du Climatic Research Unit, plus souvent appelé Climategate, est une affaire résultant de la divulgation, dans la seconde moitié du mois de novembre 2009, d'un ensemble de courriels et de fichiers, entre 1996 et le 12 novembre 2009, attribués à des responsables du Climate Research Unit (en) de l'université d’East Anglia et à leurs correspondants[1]. Ce centre de recherche est l'un des plus influents de ceux étudiant les changements climatiques naturels et anthropiques et nombre des correspondants concernés font partie de l'encadrement du Groupe d'experts intergouvernemental sur l'évolution du climat (Giec)[2]. La divulgation des fichiers a eu lieu deux semaines avant le début du sommet de Copenhague[3],[4].

Le Climategate est décrit par les uns comme un des plus grands scandales scientifiques de notre temps[2],[5] et par les autres comme un événement de peu d'importance[6],[7]. Pour les premiers, les courriels et fichiers du Climategate suggèreraient que les scientifiques du climat les plus influents dans le monde de la climatologie et du Giec[8] auraient été coupables de graves dérives déontologiques[9], agissant de concert[10],[11] pour afficher un consensus de façade, manipuler les données ou leur présentation et ainsi exagérer le réchauffement climatique ou son interprétation, faire de la rétention d'information[12], interférer dans le processus d'évaluation par leurs pairs afin d'empêcher la publication d'articles divergents et détruire des courriels et des données brutes pour empêcher les audits indépendants. Les scientifiques directement mis en cause répondent que ces éléments, cités hors contexte, seraient en réalité bénins. La communauté des climatologues est partagée quant à la portée morale et technique des éléments révélés par le Climategate à l'encontre des scientifiques directement concernés. De nombreux scientifiques[13] réaffirment leur soutien à la thèse du réchauffement climatique anthropique[14],[15].

The entire article is well worth taking to heart, as it devotes most of its space to the allegations of scientific misconduct, and the denials of same [23] Oiler99 (talk) 08:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes Oiler, you are absolutely correct about your analysis of the reactions section. Several times it has been brought up that the reactions only seem to be coming from pro-AGW theory scientists, whereas the *much more interesting and relevant* reactions from the AGW skeptical scientists are absolutely verboten in this article. This of course makes no sense. If this article is to even appear remotely balanced we must include reactions from scientists such as Richard Lindzen. The quote you supplied looks like a great candidate to include. JettaMann (talk) 17:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Addition to similar incidents

Wouldn't be the case to add the glaciergate to the similar incidents section?194.74.151.201 (talk) 12:11, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

That is not a similar incident. The -gate suffix is just tacked onto it for no reason. Ignignot (talk) 15:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The similarity between the acquisition of tapes of Nixon and the release of emails in climategate and the revelation of an attempted coverup, mean that -gate is not an unreasonable name for this scandal ... and to be honest I can't think of another name so that's why its become the de facto name in every media except Wikipedia. In contrast the lie revealed about the Glaciers, is the publishing of false information, not the cover-up of wrong doing, and to be honest unlike climategate, the himalayan glacier untruth could just possibly be an (almost) honest mistake by an over enthusiastic copyist just embellishing the certainty of the WWF quote. 88.109.170.186 (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

While I agree with you about the Himalayan glacier error being a near honest mistake, even the Telegraph now thinks the hacking incident was over-hyped.[24] . . . dave souza, talk 10:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The glacier "error" could not be an honest mistake without massive incompetence. Anyone with any knowledge of glaciers knows the statement was laughable. SPhilbrickT 16:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

... and it even a honest mistake! [25] I'm actually pretty shocked about that one. The IPCC process is not as bad as some people make it out to be. Someone should have reacted. 130.232.214.10 (talk) 21:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is a third issue that's surfaced with IPCC report. However, I do not think this or the glacier issue can or should be dealt with under an article about a hacking incident. However if the article is changed to deal with the controversy colloquially know as Climategate this could be appropriate as a similar controversy. [26] 130.232.214.10 (talk) 18:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Banner Review

So this talk page has quite a few banners over it, and some of them seem to be out of date, although I am unsure. Specifically (and feel free to discuss separately):

• the rewrite banner and outline seem to be stalled / dead
• the move request seems to be finished / archived / dead
• the POV issues seem to have settled down somewhat on the main article and (personally) I think the banner of shame can be removed.
• the faq can probably use updating but I have not gone through item by item.

Ignignot (talk) 19:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that 1, 2 and 3 can go now, AFAIK. The FAQ is probably OK and should stay, just in case it's useful in the future. --Nigelj (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The issues I brought up previously have not been resolved, nor even addressed. The POV tag should remain until neutrality is achieved. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Most editors seem to agree that the POV issues you seem concerned about are nonexistent. If a consensus is reached among regular editors that this article is neutral, the POV tag should be removed from the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Careful... Regular editors only? In any case, I don't think the article is NPOV in its current state. --Heyitspeter (talk) 09:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a question of ownership. It's a simple fact that "regular editors" are always going to have more say than the usual "drop-in" IPs, SPAs and socks. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:55, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

To-do list (bee in bonnet). Let's all agree the to-do list! Itsmejudith (talk) 20:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I believe we have already addressed the neutrality concerns. This article should not be held hostage by one or two dissenters. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If the Boston Red Sox baseball team wrote an article about the 2004 World Series, and the Saint Louis Cardinals baseball team (against whom the Red Sox played) protested that the article wasn't neutral, then the article isn't neutral. ChrisO, Scjessey, Guettarda, KDP, NigelJ, and the "Iron Fist" believe the article is neutral. In order to declare the article neutral, however, a couple of middle-of-the-road skeptics would need to agree, also. If you can't get even ONE skeptic to assent that this article is neutral, then it's not. Sphilbrick has been a voice of reason, from time to time. Perhaps the AGW supporters know of a few others? Nightmote (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I consider myself to be more aligned with Pielke jr's views than most of the people listed (and I have sometimes disagreed with things they have said, and agreed with things you have said). I think the POV-ness has been brought down enough to lose the tag - I'm not saying there is no disagreement but that the disagreement is no more than found in say, the hockey stick controversy article, or the global warming article. Ignignot (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

A consensus is what is needed. We don't need to make special cases for certain groups. I'm a firm believer in the usefulness of the POV tag, because I think it pushes editors into trying to resolve conflicts. But when it is used when there isn't any non-neutral stuff in an article, it becomes a badge of shame applied by agenda-driven editors who don't agree with what most of the universe thinks. It is rare for a POV tag to remain on an article for more than a few days, so unless editors can come up with legitimate neutrality concerns (and I am aware of none) it should be removed. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"ChrisO, Scjessey, Guettarda, KDP, NigelJ, and the "Iron Fist"..." What happened to the whole "focus on content, not contributors" idea? Guettarda (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I believe that I understand your position. I disagree with it. In the spirit of compromise and consensus, in recognition of the changes that have been made since the banner was applied, and in acknowledgement of my own bias, if a reasonable skeptic or two can be persuaded to honestly assess the article as neutrally-biased I will withdraw any protest. It would be unreasonable of me to seek universal approval, but if it's truly neutral, surely *someone* on the skeptic side of the house will be willing to say so? If, as Scjessey asserts, this article is being "held hostage" by "one or two dissenters", then other skeptics will come forward and the banner will be removed very quickly without the need to enter into yet another revert war or seek yet another block on the article. Nightmote (talk) 17:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The "skeptical" position is very much a minority position (in fact, almost to the point of being a fringe position), so why should we seek the approval of this particular group? A simple consensus (which roughly equates to a decent majority, I suppose) should be more than sufficient. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to frame this as a skeptic vs. non-skeptic thing. I'm not a skeptic, and I think this article has huge NPOV issues.

The CRU hacking incident has created a controversy that occupies the main stream presses, and it just is the case that it directly concerns skeptic groups, whether these groups are fringe or not. So even following WP:Fringe to the letter, treating of the so-called "minority position" is warranted (though it's hardly the minority).--Heyitspeter (talk) 09:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are completely wrong about this. It is a fringe position, and throwing up US-centric polls that don't fairly reflect world opinion isn't going to change that for a second. Pretending this isn't a two-sided debate isn't helpful either. I've learned that more can be achieved by accepting this fact, as evidenced by my recent efforts to get "Climategate" into the first para of the lede. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying both that skepticism about AGW is not a fringe position and that even if it were a fringe position WP:Fringe wouldn't suggest or require categorically denying input by those who hold it. --Heyitspeter (talk) 23:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

p.s., here's your UK-centric poll: [27]--Heyitspeter (talk) 23:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

And p.p.s., though now I just feel clumsy, the "sides" of most of these confrontations/debates on this and similar articles clearly are not divisible into "skeptic" and "non-skeptic" camps. There are people making POV edits at the expense of accuracy, and both skeptics and non-skeptics alike fall into that category. There are also people attempting to minimize these biased edits and salvage these articles, also including members of both "skeptic" and "non-skeptic" camps. There are also people that don't fit into either of these very specific and circumscribed (in modern jargon) categories.--Heyitspeter (talk) 23:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

@Guettarda - The editors I identified have been fairly consistent regarding their opinions on this article, where the emphasis should be, and which descriptors are "neutral". I have no opinion regarding your other contributions or positions, but I believe that it would be fair to characterize you as a believer in AGW, and someone who feels that the focus of this article must be on the theft as opposed to the subsequent consequences. Nightmote (talk) 17:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Your beliefs about other editors are irrelevant to this talk page, and characterizing other editors is equally offtopic. Please desist. Thanks, dave souza, talk 17:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

@Nightmote. As I've said elsewhere, the believer-nonbeliever dichotomy should be (and I think is) irrelevant with respect to editors on this talkpage. Stick to discussing the edits themselves. --Heyitspeter (talk) 09:55, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Good idea to remove the "neutrality" tag from the article, in the absence of any substantive discussions that comply with WP:TALK about the neutrality of the article as a whole. . . dave souza, talk 17:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC) @Scjessey - as I pointed out earlier, consensus among those who already agree is fairly easy to achieve. I'm not asking anybody to convince *me* or GoRight that the article is neutral. The bar is set much lower than that. Simply find a genuine skeptic or two who will agree with you that the article is neutrally-biased. That's hardly unreasonable, given the level of disgagreement that has been exhibited in this space. Nightmote (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It appears your condition has already been passed - User:Ignignot. Hipocrite (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Discussions re neutrality are ongoing and no consensus has been reached. I think we need a RfC to get some neutral eyes on this. JPatterson (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd say I am more skeptical, I don't know if I am in the skeptic camp. Maybe I'm skeptical about my own skepticism? In any case the change changing from the dispute banner to the review npov banner is a good step, I think. Ignignot (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

@Dave, this is a discussion of NPOV. Having and expressing a point of view is the discussion at hand. I'm reasonably confident that Guettarda understands my point, though disagreement is not out of the question. Nightmote (talk) 17:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

@Hipocrite - Ignignot is neutral, and I respect that. Good point. Upon due consideration, and despite the absence of a second skeptic (I did say one or two) I withdraw my objection. Nightmote (talk) 17:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm glad that finding a middle ground worked, yet again - using pov-check as opposed to npov seems to work untill such time as we get a real opinion about existing concerns. What would probably be helpful would be a tick-list of issues that people who believe the article is not neutral currently have - and please try to be reasonable in listing issues that would likley be able to get some sort of consensus. Hipocrite (talk) 18:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree and I like the compromise of changing NPOV dispute to NPOV discuss. I would suggest that if we do try to tick off NPOV concerns, that they are put into a new section on the talk page. As a side note, I removed the link to the rewrite because it appears defunct / stalled. If this is in error feel free to re-add. Ignignot (talk) 18:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec)OK. In good faith, then. Some people believe that the content of the emails demonstrates unprofessional behaviour on the part of the scientists. Some do not. Some people believe that the content of the emails disproves the AGW hypothesis. Some do not. These groups are not identical; and to identify those who feel the scientists behaved badly as AGW skeptics is biased. The statement " ... Individuals who oppose action on global warming called the incident "Climategate" ... " is to suggest that if one supports action on AGW, one must therefore reject the possibility that wrongdoing took place. The language is slippery, here, and subtle, but I feel reasonably confident that what I'm saying is correct. There is the theft (CRU Hacking Incident), there is the resultant scandal (Climategate), and there is the impact of the scandal on the AGW hypothesis (scientific consensus). Because we are arguing about three different events and three different levels of significance, we are finding consensus very difficult to achieve. I'm not prepared to suggest an alternate format, but it might help to re-structure the article to reflect the three phases or aspects. Nightmote (talk) 19:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is that the basic hypothesis above, that Global Warming is like a baseball match, is wrong. This isn't a 50/50, equal-chance issue. The position that, "Here we have a graph. It went up. Now, what's it going to do next? Up or down? Fifty-fifty, place your bets" is fundamentally flawed. As is the view that what we need here is a view that's neutrally sceptical: "Some scientists say up, some right-wing commentators say down, we need editors who don't know which to believe, to give both camps equal weight". You don't get that false 'balance' on creationism vs evolution, or on any other scientific topic versus those who don't understand, or 'believe in' (or want to believe in), that science. So, of the three 'aspects', only the first one is notable for serious coverage: We note that there was a 'scandal' among the uninformed, and that everyone who understands the issues says that there is no impact on the overall science, and that's it. As to whether "the emails demonstrate unprofessional behaviour on the part of the scientists", we are bound by WP:BLP to remain dumb on this until we have the results of reliable and official inquiries that either apportion blame or not. Those are the reasons why the article is as balanced as it can be as it is. --Nigelj (talk) 19:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you and Nightmote are talking about different things here. He specifically said that it wasn't an issue where there were just two sides defined - instead he was pointing out that there are many issues that get tied up under the umbrella of global warming, and that trying to put people into one of those two groups always results in difficulty in achieving consensus. I agree completely with that. It isn't comparable to the creation vs evolution argument, specifically because there are so many shades of grey.

Currently the overall structure of the article is something like: 1) hack timeline, 2) description of the content 3) reactions to the content. I think the suggestion that there be a section on how the reactions (particularly the investigations) change how climatology science is viewed, how the peer review is run, and how the IPCC is structured is something to keep in mind. However, it is just too early for there to be much to put into such a section. When the academic and criminal investigations reach some conclusions there will be more content on that topic, but at the moment it would be almost entirely speculation.

In the reactions section we certainly can mention that some people believe that the emails raise questions as to the way the involved researchers apply the scientific process. For example (although not exactly RS) Jon Stewart of The Daily Show, certainly not a skeptic or a "right-wing commentator" criticized the researchers specifically because the research was so important, and that "cutting corners" is a terrible thing to do for something that impacts everyone. The reaction and its results, particularly from the investigations, could eventually be the majority of content in the article, depending on how much happens in Parliament and the other venues of inquiry. Ignignot (talk) 21:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"we are bound by WP:BLP to remain dumb on this until we have the results of reliable and official inquiries that either apportion blame or not" This is blatantly false and has absolutely no basis in any Wikipedia policy or guidline. As has been pointed out repeatedly, it is not a WP:BLP violation if we follow reliable sources. The rare exceptions (such as outing someone's sexual orientation) do not apply to this situation. Please stop spreading obviously false information. If there are any newbies here, they're not going to realize that this argument is complete bullsh*t. BTW, if you disagree, please bring up this "Wikipedia must be dumb until official investigations are complete" argument to the WP:BLP policy page where it will be soundly rejected. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Scjessey says "The skeptical position is very much a minority position (in fact, almost to the point of being a fringe position), so why should we seek the approval of this particular group?"

The skeptical position is in fact the default position of the scientific method, upheld by a substantial number of old-fashioned scientists, hardly a minority. That the reliability of the data has become suspect surely deserves mention. And even if the data were valid, the case for anthropogenesis is disputed by many notable climatologists. NPOV in this article remains at least in dispute, if not presumptively absent.Oiler99 (talk) 09:32, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The "skeptical" position is misleading code for uninformed criticism, the scientific method requires peer reviewed publication – so we need good sources, not just the fringe rantings of bloggers. Amusingly, intelligent design proponentsists also claim to be supported by a substantial number of "skeptical" scientists. A much misused word. WP:NPOV requires due weight to the majority view, and requires the minority view to be shown in the context of the majority view. This article must present that balance. . . dave souza, talk 10:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's not lose sight of what the article is about. It's not about global warming. It's about a political controversy and the potential misconduct of 3 or 4 scientists. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No it isn't. It's about the theft of private emails from a research center by means of hacking, the illegal dissemination of that material, and then the controversy hyped by skeptics and deniers. This misrepresentation of yours has really got to stop. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

To quote the boys from Monty Python, this sketch is getting 'too silly'. Scjessey is quite correct that this is NOT about Climategate. I have no complaint about someone describing the (alleged) hacking at East Anglia. I have a very strong complaint that a redirect to this article is being used to drop Climategate down the Memory_hole. I also agree with A Quest For Knowledge that Climategate itself is about something quite different. I part company with him/her in that I think that this widening scandal has grown enormous. It encompasses much of the scientific establishment and the traditional Fourth_estate beyond just the world of the 'hockey team' and their young discipline(s). Indeed, the scandal now includes Wikipedia itself. Wikipedia *will* self-correct eventually, but it is looking increasingly grim. WRT to the bullet points at the top: Re: "I think a move request is well within order." -- The fact that so many who would support a move have been chased away, banned, etc does not mean that those points of view no longer exist. Re: "* the POV issues seem to have settled down somewhat on the main article and (personally) I think the banner of shame can be removed." -- You just have to be kidding. No article bearing the current name could ever be considered NPOV. Certainly the article itself is egregiously POV to the point of just being silly. Re: "* the faq can probably use updating but I have not gone through item by item." Last I went through the FAQ it seemed to be a nest of weak apologia for the obvious criticisms one might raise and (very thinly) veiled threats against anyone who would have the temerity to attempt to put this article right. As I said before, this *is* an article about a breach of certain servers. That's fine. However, it is masquerading (via a redirect) as a discussion about the very much broader and very much different topic of 'Climategate'. I have spent a long time looking at this and related stuff on WP and elsewhere and there is no question in my mind that this entire thing is grotesquely aberrant. I fully expect it to become a sorry footnote in the history of WP. Meantime, though, as long as it remains in this state (and actually the entire 'climate' universe and constant references to 'Stance on Global Warming') it continues to erode the reputation of an enormous body of work at Wikipedia. It is a shame, and anyone with a modicum of decency who has spent a long time sparring here will recuse themselves and refer this up the chain for correction. It is unfair to continue this charade and taint the work of huge numbers of innocent contributing editors. A few hundred articles mangled by a small cadre of editors with an Axe to grind is calling into question the quality of literally millions of articles written by hundreds of thousands of editors. If nothing else, it should offend your sense of fairness. Yuck! DeepNorth (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Bravo!! The best solution, I suggest, is to break the discussion into two parts: the theft or liberation of the FOIA documents; and the conduct and attitudes and intentions revealed by the mother lode. To this latter can be appended the NOAA data scandal recently revealed, and perhaps even the (minor) glacier scandal. This discussion calls the mind the operations of the Holy Office in the defense of matters of faith. Show them the instruments...Oiler99 (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

UK Parliament Investigation

It looks like the Parliament has taken an interest in this matter [28] "THE DISCLOSURE OF CLIMATE DATA FROM THE CLIMATIC RESEARCH UNIT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF EAST ANGLIA

The Science and Technology Committee today announces an inquiry into the unauthorised publication of data, emails and documents relating to the work of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA). The Committee has agreed to examine and invite written submissions on three questions:

— What are the implications of the disclosures for the integrity of scientific research?

— Are the terms of reference and scope of the Independent Review announced on 3 December 2009 by UEA adequate (see below)?

— How independent are the other two international data sets?

The Committee intends to hold an oral evidence session in March 2010. " Ignignot (talk) 17:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Very useful, looks like it should get a mention in the #Elected representatives and governments section. . . dave souza, talk 17:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The most interesting part of this statement is that they don't call this a theft, but instead use the more neutral "unauthorised publication of data, emails and documents ". I suggest that we do the same. Q Science (talk) 20:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That certainly would be interesting if it were not a half-truth. Later in the same document, they refer to "hacked e-mail exchanges". -- Scjessey (talk) 20:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, we do not use the word theft in the article at the moment except when quoting and paraphrasing, due to incredibly uninteresting UK theft laws. The committee is focused on the ethical questions raised by the content of the email. That they are not investigating any criminal activity associated with obtaining the documents does not indicate that the UK government thinks no criminal activity occurred - on the contrary, they are letting the police and the NDEP do the investigation. Over the weekend there will almost certainly be secondary sources we can reference which will include mention of the Parliament's actions, and will perhaps have some interesting analysis. Ignignot (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You cannot use the word "theft" for the simple reason that there is no evidence of theft. They lost the decline - why didn't they just loose some datadisk and when no IT staff owned up to leaving the disk on the train, etc. 88.109.170.186 (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. They have said explicitly that the server was hacked. I understand that the official enquiry, which is due to report next month, will confirm that and provide some more details about the circumstances (see below). -- ChrisO (talk) 00:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Chris,as has been pointed out to you many times, "hacked" does not necessarily imply "theft".SPhilbrickT 17:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Since the UEA has said unequivocally that the material in question was stolen, your semantic objection is moot. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Chris, you’ve got that exactly backwards. Q Science was making the interesting point that the Parliament wording carefully avoided the use of the word “theft” and you made the semantic argument that theft was implied, because they used the word “hacked”. Your semantic argument fails. We shall learn, hopefully soon, whether there was an actual theft, but at this point we do not know. The UEA claim is not definitive. I’m not claiming the Parliament wording is definitive in terms of rejecting the claim, but neither is it definitive in supporting the claim, as you implied. It won’t surprise me if there was a criminal act, but my lack of surprise is not the hurdle for inclusion.SPhilbrickT 15:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Parliament, inevitably, means politics, which means politicking. We should not be writing our coverage around what they say William M. Connolley (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparently (see #Mass reversion), in law, there is no such thing as data theft, it is an 'imprecise' term. What we have are breaches of the Computer Misuse Act 1990, the Data Protection Act 1998 (section 55), and Oxford v Moss, we are told. Our on-wiki 'legal advisor' (User:Rodhullandemu) may not be correct, but that's the best we have at the moment. These are still crimes, but not 'theft'. There is no doubt about the 'hacking', though. That is well-sourced and makes sense however the data got out, unless we take the view that the management of CRU/UEA explicitly asked a member of staff to publish it as part of their normal work. --Nigelj (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Re WMC: I was suggesting that the reactions section be expanded to include Parliament's statement on the subject. I haven't found any secondary sources on this yet though, although I thought it would be reported somewhere. I haven't been looking very hard though. Is anyone up to the task? Ignignot (talk) 15:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Non skeptic sources using climategate

Note that many don't even bother to explain it anymore, that's how engrained the term has become.

• Cambridege Scientific Alliance: 'Climategate' – the furore over the implications of the leaked emails from the Norwich-based Climate Research Unit [29]
• New Zealand Herald: First came Climategate, the row over leaked emails that raised doubts about data used to confirm global warming by the influential United Nations panel on climate change[30]
• NYT: The question of whether the planet is heating and how quickly was at the heart of the so-called “climategate” controversy that arose last fall when hundreds of e-mail messages from the climate study unit at the University of East Anglia in England were released without authorization.[31]
• AFP: The so-called "climategate" controversy that exploded last fall on the eve of UN-sponsored climate talks unleashed a furor over whether the planet was heating and, if so, at what pace.[32]
• Time: Has 'Climategate' Been Overblown?[33]
• Discover: Just when the whole “ClimateGate” affair had retreated from the headlines, other climate scientists have stepped in to shoot themselves in the foot in the public spotlight.[34]
• WSJ: ClimateGate's Michael Mann Received Stimulus Funds
• NPR: The have a topic portal entitled ClimateGate [35]
• Economic Times: NEW DELHI: Barely recovering from Climategate, IPCC’s credibility has come under a cloud yet again in the wake of Glaciergate. [36]
• NYT: Mr. Blankenship invoked the recent “Climategate” e-mail scandal, in which messages purloined from a server at a British climate research center suggested that some prominent scientists may have fudged some data to support evidence of human-driven global warming.[37]
• Washington Post: In the ensuing "Climategate" scandal, scientists were accused of withholding information, suppressing dissent, manipulating data and more.
• Revkin (NYT DotEarth): I've asked him if he can parse out how much was "Climategate" compared to the climate talks. I'll post an update if I hear more. [38]
• Times Online:Steve Dorling, of the University of East Anglia’s school of environmental sciences — yes, the UEA of “climategate” email fame — warns that it is “wrong to focus on single events, which are the product of natural variability”. [39]

• Irish Times, Damaged credibility doesn't alter climate facts: It Has been a bad winter for the environmental movement. It started with climategate. [40]
• The Metropolitan: The level of confusion and misinformation surrounding the real and perceived issues of “climate change” related to CoP 15 in Copenhagen is enormous[41]
• The AlterNet, "Climate-Gate" Pseudo-Scandal Just Slanderous Nonsense:[42]
• Rachael Maddow (MSNBC): MADDOW: Yes. And on climate change. There are a lot of interesting ways to talk about the right way to respond to that, but instead, it‘s Climate-gate, it‘s all made up.[43]
• LA Times: Meanwhile, the December climate change summit in Copenhagen was done few favors by the Climategate scandal -- the incident in which a number of e-mails were made public that suggested climate scientists were cherry-picking data and tampering with peer review procedures in an effort to downplay anything that might serve as ammunition for global warming skeptics.[44]
• LA Times: Also absent from the discussion in Copenhagen is the Climategate scandal. Recently leaked e-mails reveal climate scientists have a long track record of manipulating data to hide scientific evidence that contradicts the global warming establishment. [45]

JPatterson (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Jeez, not this again? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not productive talk page behavior. Sourcebombing over something we reached hard-fought consensus over (albeit, whilst you were banned) dosen't seem like a way to move forward. I'm not even going to adress your sources, but in the future you will suggest edits to the article when making new talk page sections, or you will, yet again, get to take a break from this talk page. Hipocrite (talk) 19:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. The argument gets made over and over that there is no RS using climategate, or no non-skeptical source using climategate, or ... What could be more productive in moving towards consensus than proving one side of the argument is without merit? JPatterson (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that there is no dispute about sources using climategate, and it is fully covered in the article. Please propose a change to the article that you believe has even a remote posibility of garnering consensus amongst all good-faith contributors. (IE, if you're going to propose renaming the article Climategate, YET AGAIN, just don't.) Hipocrite (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It would appear from this discussion that no consensus has been reached but that the majority favor using Climategate in the lead sentence. JPatterson (talk) 19:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"Climategate" is a convenient moniker, but Wikipedia isn't as lazy as the mainstream media. Also, some of the sources you list do not support what you are suggesting. For example, the Maddow source is actually the highly partisan "NewsBusters" reporting that Maddow was making fun of the ludicrous "Climategate" moniker. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

If you are proposing a change to the lead sentence, then propose that change. Instead of doing that, you just pasted in a list of sources that don't seem to mean or do anything. There's a section (OH LOOK, YOU LINKED TO IT!) discussing the lead sentence. Why not use that? Hipocrite (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I wasn't trying to imply anything by starting a new section. The assertion about no RS and no non-skeptical sources are spread out over that discussion up, this was just a convenient place to reply to them all at once. JPatterson (talk) 20:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Jpat, There is no point in furthering this argument, we all know that Climategate is what it is called, but what we know and what can be resolved vis-a-vis consensus are two different things. Best to just let WP wallow in its self-perceived righteousness. Arzel (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Please read the earlier discussion. There is no concensus to change the title. The Four Deuces (talk) 20:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I know but the discussion here is re the lead sentence. It is now not mentioned until the second paragraph. In the view of many, the focus of the first four or five paragraphs are not aligned with reality. JPatterson (talk) 21:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, given all these sources, the lead should say "The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident, also known as 'Climategate', came to light...". Why doesn't it? This should be uncontroversial, given the number of sources listed above. If there was a consensus I missed, please point me to it, because I didn't find it in a casual read of this talk page. ATren (talk) 22:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Because you can't just get everything you want. You have to compromise with people that disagree with you. How does your proposal compromise with people that want "Swifthack" (sourcable) in the lede? How does it compromise with people that want to include the information about who started calling it "Climategate" (sourcable) in the lede? Hipocrite (talk) 22:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I've read perhaps 100 articles on this subject, and this is the first time I've seen "swifthack" what is that the way some people remove my comments as soon as I make them? 88.109.170.186 (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

There are multiple sources listed above calling it "climategate". It is common to include nicknames of topics in the lede. If "swifthack" is similarly sourced, then add that too. And no, it's not common, nor is it necessary, to discuss the etymology of the term in the lede. If there are sources on that etymology, then it can be written about in the body. Right now, given its extensive usage, I see no justification for suppressing "climategate" as an "aka" in the first sentence. ATren (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to have it read The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident aka Swifthack aka Climategate. Will that work for you? Hipocrite (talk) 22:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I would be fine with that, as long as it can be demonstrated that swifthack is also reliably reported. Is it? (I really don't know) ATren (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It's is. Time magazine. Hipocrite (talk) 22:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Anywhere else? One shot names are hardly notable, and border on UNDUE. Arkon (talk) 22:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Time seems pretty notable to me. I mean, it's Time Magazine. But, of course, if you want to compromise...Hipocrite (talk) 22:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you list the link here? If it's only that one source, I don't know if it carries the weight of "climategate". Also, the line about skeptics creating "climategate" should also be removed from the lede - the origin can be discussed later if it is well sourced. Perhaps "swifthack" could be discussed later in the article, along with climategate, in the context of etymology (again, as long as sources can be found) ATren (talk) 22:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Sorry, I can't agree with a proposal that reads "I get everything I want, you get nothing you want." I'm going to have to ask for some consessions here. Hipocrite (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hold a second, there. Just because something can be sourced doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Unlike "climategate", very few reliable sources use the term "swifthack". As I point out above, WP:UNDUE should be followed when determining content issues. ATren's proposal seems reasonable. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Arkon (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh. I guess we'll have to go back to compromising, since you won't let me get everything I want while still feeling like things are fair. I was even prepared to let climategate be the first aka if you had asked, or even add warmergate! How about the current version, then, since I don't think "you get everything you want, I get nothing I want" is very fair. It's not like I'm excluding your magic word or anything, just asking that it be put in the sourced context that it so richly deserves. Hipocrite (talk) 22:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Non-responsive. Arkon (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Collapsed side discussion -- this section is discussing including AKA in the lede. Please keep on topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The title of this article has nothing at all to do with climategate. The title is about the alledged theft of emails - there's no evidence to suggest this wasn't a data disk lost on a train, or a laptop or a thousand other potential avenues for loosing this information (they lost the decline!). With no more having come out of the supposed police investigation, there's nothing to add -- the title is a none issue, a far from notable event except for its association with climategate. Climategate, isn't about the leak of emails, it is about the content of those emails. Out of hundreds I've seen on climategate, only one went into any details about the mechanism of leaking, and even that spent much time of the content of the emails. Therefore it is absolutely crystal clear to me that the title is pure POV push. The title doesn't fit the issue, which is essential the scandal regarding what was revealed in the emails. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop get rid of this POV push article title and unless someone can think of a title that even barely resembles the issue that is actually being covered: CALL IT CLIMATEGATE because that is what it is known as by anyone who wants to read about it. 88.109.170.186 (talk) 22:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC) 88.109.170.186|88.109.170.186, You hit the nail on the head on one of the other major POV issues with the article. The topic is being spun to make it look like the issue is about the hacking when the real story is about subsequent political controversy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC) A Quest For Knowledge, that is why it is painfully obvious this article has been taken over by insiders to the climategate incident: only those on the inside would ever think a pretty minor release of a few academic emails would qualify for an entry in a college newsrag let alone be of significant international interest to be included here. The real issue is the unscientific culture and repression of peer review etc. revealed in the content of the emails not the method of release to the public. So why does the title zero in on the method of release, an issue only of interest to a few embarrassed insiders? 88.109.170.186 (talk) 22:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

88.109.170.186, well, I'm not sure I'd go that far, but there's certainly a huge WP:NPOV issue with this article. I hope you'll help us resolve these problems. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:59, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite, would you please post the Time magazine link? ATren (talk) 22:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Have you browsed the article for "swifthack?" It seems to me that reading through the article would be one of the first things you'd do before showing up trying to modify the lede. But, for your convience, it's [46]. Hipocrite (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't modify the lede, I'm simply discussing here. Thank you for the link. ATren (talk) 22:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It does look a little odd that the aka Climategate is in the second paragraph, while the style guide says very notable aliases should go into the lede. By the way, the first hit on google for climategate is our article here! Ignignot (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Using google news

• Swifthack - 4 hits, not notable
• Climategate - 855 hits
• Climatic Research Unit hacking - 66 hits
• "Climatic Research Unit hacking" - 1 hit, it simply refers to this page (searched using double quotes)
• "Climatic Research Unit" hacking - 2 hits shown of 40 total (searched using double quotes as shown)

So, no swifthack is not notable. Q Science (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The statistics clearly show that climategate is the preferred name in the press - but of course there are certain people who actively edit anything said in favour of climategate as the proper name so if you want to read my full comments please read the censored history. 88.109.170.186 (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The Time article is about the naming of the controversy and includes both Swifthack and Climategate, though Climategate is in the title. I think an argument can be made that Climategate should go into the lede without Swifthack, but I would not be opposed to including both, with Climategate first. Now, later there is already discussion of etymology of both terms, so there is no need for the Climategate etymology discussion in the second paragraph, that should be removed in favor of the extended discussion further below - that section, by the way, should probably be trimmed, but that's a different discussion. ATren (talk) 22:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Would not "Climatic Research Unit controversy" followed by AKA "climategate" be fairly short, descriptive and to the point? 91.153.115.15 (talk) 23:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it would. Excellent suggestion, 91.153.115.15. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This is all vair silly. Climategate is already mentioned in the lede; it is as prominent as it needs to be William M. Connolley (talk) 23:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Google gives 29800 hits for quoted "Climatic Research Unit" followed by the word controversy. Searching these results also show climategate. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:Naming_conventions_(precision)#Treatment_of_alternative_names, "An article can only have one name; however significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph (see Lead section)." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Taking the above into consideration "(The) Climatic Research Unit controversy" appears short and logical. Add in climategate after that. I am of course working under the presumption that "The Climatic Research Unit" has not previously been involved in a controversy of any note. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 23:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed wording

I propose the following opening line:

• The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident, also known as "Climategate", came to light... - climategate is the predominant nickname, and I don't think a single mention in Time justifies the use of "swifthack" in the lede -- it's already mentioned further down in the body.

I also propose to remove the following sentences:

• Individuals who oppose action on global warming called the incident "Climategate", which became a commonly used term for the incident.

  This is redundant if Climategate is in the lede.

• British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change head Rajendra Pachauri are among those who have suggested that the incident was intended to undermine the then imminent December 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit. Though the vast majority of climate data have always been freely available, the incident has prompted general discussion about increasing the openness of scientific data. Scientists, scientific organisations, and government officials have stated that the incident does not affect the overall scientific case for climate change.

  This is too much for the opening section. A simple statement giving both sides is sufficient.

ATren (talk) 01:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed on 1 and 2, the third could be useful in the body though (it may already be there). Arkon (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd like constructive comments on a re-write of the lead I've posted here. Please note that I'm note proposing this as a change to the article but rather as an example of what I consider neutral, factual language that frames the controversy accurately and in rough order of its off-wiki coverage. My objective here is to give critics a target to shoot at so as to gain a better understanding of the contention here. Obviously the first sentence will be controversial. I tried to come up with something that would have broader appeal but failed. I couldn't come up with anything better in terms of succinctness, flow and accuracy. Fire away! JPatterson (talk) 01:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• Absolutely not to both proposals. No attempt whatsoever is being made to adress concerns about this raised by multiple people who are not on your "side" of this issue. Hipocrite (talk) 01:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are you turning this into a "side v. side" issue. Sides have nothing to do with it. This is about due weight and what the entire world, sans WP, is calling the incident. It is known as Climategate, and the equivalent of WP putting its head in the sand will not change this in the least, we should at least be honest with what everyone else (save a small minority) are calling it. Arzel (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

You might be forgetting that Wikipedia has neutrality rules that "the entire world", as you put it, does not. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

What? If I understand you correctly, NPOV states that we cannot present a majority view of what Climategate is called without presenting the minority view of what a very small number of people call it? It would seem that the reverse of this is not true with regards to Global Warming, which would lead me to believe that the rules are arbitrary. You cannot have it both ways. Arzel (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Its incredible that this is still getting discussed, despite multiple previous discussions during the last month. People, consensus can and does change - but it doesn't change this fast. Repeating this discussion every week or so, seems to be more of a "lets see if we can wear people down this time" kind of thing, rather than an attempt to improve. The pertinent question is: What has changed? And the answer to that: Not a lot. We have a naming of the incident section, and climategate is in the lede, the redirect still exists, and the guideline about "-gate" naming still exists. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Where is the consensus you refer to? ATren (talk) 03:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with calling it "Climategate" in either of the ways mentioned. I do agree with those noting that newspapers will mention a term like this for various reasons, not meaning that it is a neutral description for an encyclopedia article on the topic. One of the New York Times articles calls it "so-called." Many of them are in quotes. These are indications that they're using the term at arms length. I haven't followed the previous discussions, but I think the way it's included currently is just about correct for an encyclopedia article. Mackan79 (talk) 03:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty much my take as well. It's a partisan term, coined by partisans, used for partisan reasons to convey a partisan message (i.e. that the matter is a scandal - see -gate#Etymology, usage and history of -gate for more on the etymology). You rightly note that many of the media outlets use the term at arm's length, probably for this very reason. It makes sense for us to do the same. -- ChrisO (talk) 03:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Can we at least agree that the sentence that contains "Climategate" needs to be moved? As it stands now, it sits between the sentence that outlines the allegations, and the one where the CRU responds ("..have described these interpretations"), orphaning the "these" in the last sentence. I would suggest moving it to become the closing sentence of the first paragraph. JPatterson (talk) 03:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with the current placement. It makes sense to me, in that it explains why some have referred to it as Climategate. The fact is, at least as far as I read things, that to call something "x-gate" these days is a statement about an incident that is most likely either accusatory or ironic, if not both. If something is accusatory, then you have to present it as such, not present it as if it's a neutral summary. I could see us writing, "A lawyer, also known as an ambulance chaser, a counselor, or a prostitute, is someone who practices law..." It seems clear enough to me that calling it "climategate" is an interpretation so I'm also not sure what about the current grammar is incorrect. Mackan79 (talk) 08:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Climategate is the term used everywhere - why deny it? "Climategate" can still be in quotes, and it could be worded "colloquially referred to as..." if "aka" is unacceptable. Also, I agree with JPat that the sentence mentioning climategate is in the wrong place, and there's also too much explanation for the opening section. The origin of the term is dealt with later; all that matters in the opening section is to identify it as the commonly used term. Personally, I don't even see the resistance to "climategate" - it doesn't name anyone, it doesn't describe anything about the controversy, it's just a quirky moniker that caught on. What's the big deal? ATren (talk) 03:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not just "a quirky moniker that caught on". It was coined by anti-science activists in the blogosphere in a deliberate and apparently fairly successful attempt to frame the incident as a scandal. The terminology is not neutral. As CBS News has said, the "-gate" construction is used to "suggest unethical behaviour and a cover-up". That's why it needs to be kept at arm's length. -- ChrisO (talk) 04:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

We shouldn't be part of "framing". That's all. Report, don't advocate. By pretending that this is the name for the incident, we join in the framing. Which we can't do. Guettarda (talk) 04:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you think the current framing which emphasizes the hack so prominently accurately reflects how the controversy has played out in real life? Nobody but we are talking about the hack aspect. We don't even know for sure it was a hack, yet it's in the title and prominently in the lead. Isn't that joining in the framing? JPatterson (talk) 04:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not framing, it's a descriptive name. "Climategate" is not remotely descriptive - it's a partisan nickname chosen to convey claims of impropriety and cover-ups. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

None of that really matters, Chris. It's the name that stuck, and it's in common usage now. ATren (talk) 13:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course it matters. Wikipedia isn't a forum for promoting anti-science activism, and we don't apply the same (low) standards as the media. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It matters to you, a person who is passionate about the issue. But it doesn't matter to most of us who don't give a hoot. Most importantly (and indeed, the only relevant consideration here), it doesn't matter to the reliable sources which have extensively used the term. ATren (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It is not anti-science activism. Chris, you may not like the fact that this is called Climategate, but that does not change the fact that it is. Hundreds of reliable sources are calling this incident Climategate. It looks like WP is trying to hide the facts. It looks like WP is part of the controversy. It looks like WP is trying to rewrite history. Arzel (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support ATren's commonsense proposal. The way language works, something is called what it's called. The origin is almost irrelevant (but should be mentioned in the article). This has gone on far too long. Pete Tillman (talk) 04:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Support ATren's above proposal. The argument that this term is only used by skeptics is shown to be without merit above. 'Swifthack' has been used by approximately one reliable source ever, compared to at least hundreds using 'ClimateGate'. The argument about 'mainstream sources are lazy, WP isn't' doesn't make sense either, as we must report what the majority of sources do. Also, the repeated suggestions of tit-for-tat ("you can't get something without giving up something") are completely contrary to how consensus should work. This isn't a negotiation; we should determine what is correct irrespective of 'sides' or what the current article says. Oren0 (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
• I oppose the wording per ChrisO, Hippocrite et al above. Gives it undue weight and prominence. Verbal chat 19:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

What is "Climategate"

I think it is worth saying that the specific incident this article seeks to describe is not exactly equivalent to "Climategate". In essence, "Climategate" is the moniker given to the controversy/kerfuffle that erupted following the hacking of the CRU server. If the hack was the cause, "Climategate" was the effect (as are the investigations). I think this is an important distinction that goes a long way to explaining why there is such vehement disagreement among us about the use of this term. It may also form the basis of a compromise. I'd like to propose a new approach to how we could neutrally incorporate "Climategate" into the first paragraph of the lede:

The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 when it was discovered that thousands of e-mails and other documents had been obtained through the hacking of a server used by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, England. A controversy, dubbed "Climategate", developed over the content of the material. The University of East Anglia described the incident as an illegal taking of data. The police are conducting a criminal investigation of the server breach and subsequent personal threats made against some of the scientists mentioned in the e-mails.

This version gets rid of "unauthorized release" by shifting the focus to the discovery of the hack, and specifically mentions "Climategate" as a term given to describe the controversy (rather than the incident as a whole). I'm not necessarily advocating this particular text, so much as the approach itself. What do y'all think? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that this article is not focused solely on "Climategate". Maybe these two issues should be split up into two separate articles? One that only deals with the hacking and another dealing with the resulting controversy? 91.153.115.15 (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I like it a lot. It captures what I was trying to get to by defining Climategate as the furor that resulted from the hack, but succeeds where I failed by also getting in a smooth reference to the hack in the lead, which was a significant part of the controversy, especially at first. It also neatly solves the problem I alluded to above re moving the climategate sentence. I think we'd have to expand on what the controversy over the content a bit although I don't think we need the litany that's in the present article. Something like "A controversy developed as to whether the contents of the e-mails indicated mis-conduct by some climatologists"?JPatterson (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

In general it is ok, but it is not quite accurate. This wording seems to imply that the terminology of "Climategate" and the corresponding controversy developed after it was known that the servers were "hacked", when people were calling this Climategate before it was even confirmed that CRU's servers had been "hacked". Focus on the actual disemination of the data was an effect of the discussion of the data and the implications of what the data might show. Arzel (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

To my knowledge, it still hasn't been confirmed that the servers were hacked. But given the title is locked and "hacked" is in the title, what else could we do (short of changing the title which doesn't seem possible at this point)? I think it is true that the term "Climategate" has become associated with the controversy over contents, and that obviously that association developed after the release of the data. JPatterson (talk) 17:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Would "The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 when it was discovered that thousands of e-mails and other documents had been illicitly obtained from a computer used by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, England.", satisfy the concern?

I tend to agree with JPat, Scjessey's version looks good with JPat's suggestions worked in. Here is a modification with JPat's suggested mods:

The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 when it was discovered that thousands of e-mails and other documents had been illicitly obtained through the hacking of from a server used by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, England. The material was subsequently released publicly, and a controversy, dubbed "Climategate", developed over the content of the material, as to whether the contents of the material indicated mis-conduct by some climatologists, a charge denied by the climatologists involved. The University of East Anglia described the incident as an illegal taking of data. The police are conducting a criminal investigation of the server breach and subsequent personal threats made against some of the scientists mentioned in the e-mails.

(Bold shows additions, strike-through shows removals) This uses "illicitly obtained" rather than hacking, and adds some other summary points. The only potential issue is the last sentence: if the investigation into the theft is mentioned, perhaps there should also be a sentence about the investigation of involved scientists. ATren (talk) 17:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of "hacking" is not acceptable - "illicitly obtained" is just more weasel wording. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer something like "stolen" or "illicitly obtained", but I wouldn't object if hacking was kept since a lot of sources have used that term. ATren (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I would have to object to this revised wording, per ChrisO's concern and also the reintroduction of "released" (albeit in a different context). I think it overcomplicates things by trying to explain stuff that is better explored in the body of the article. I also reject Arzel's point above. As I stated in my initial comment, "Climategate" is the moniker given to the controversy that developed following the hack. It was this clear distinction that gave me the idea of how to incorporate the term. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Per ChrisO, with the added concern that "as to whether" seems to me to require an "or not" construction (as in "as to whether or not"). Without an "or not", it kinda leaves you hanging. Guettarda (talk) 18:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This has become an example of "give an inch and they take a mile". I threw out the "Climategate" bone with my initial suggestion, but several editors are trying to grab a little more than they should. Baby steps, people. Take what you can get before it gets withdrawn. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

First off, I'm not "taking" anything, whether it be inches or miles. I'm discussing an article. Second, there is nothing her for you to "give", since nobody owns this article. So why don't we stop the "us-vs-them", "you can't have that unless I have this" approach, and try to work together to address the concerns, ok? ATren (talk) 20:04, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is a need for any steps. The existing lede is fine: we have 'climategate' introduced as soon as you possibly can, in any sensible context. Everything else either summarises points made in the body, or has stood the test of time for some weeks now. The next time we have to do something major to this article will be when the inquiries begin to report. I see that ATren has closed down discussion on that below, but it will all come out in the wash. --Nigelj (talk) 18:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

←Here's another effort:

The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 when it was discovered that thousands of e-mails and other documents had been obtained through the hacking of a server used by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, England. The subsequent dissemination of the material provoked a controversy, dubbed "Climategate", over allegations the content indicated misconduct by climate scientists. The University of East Anglia described the incident as an illegal taking of data. The police are conducting a criminal investigation of the server breach and subsequent personal threats made against some of the scientists mentioned in the e-mails.

As before, I am not necessarily advocating this text, but offering it as an approach that may help to resolve the dispute. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it's mostly fine. However I think that a sentence about the independent review should also be there, i.e. "The University of East Anglia has announced that an independent review of the allegations will be carried out" at the end of Scjessey's paragraph above. I also think the entire second paragraph of the opening section should be removed, since it mainly contains details that are not necessary in the introduction. ATren (talk) 20:04, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure about this. I cannot see how the independent review is all that significant that it needs to be covered in the first paragraph of the lede. Certainly it isn't as important as the criminal investigation. Dunno about the second paragraph. It seems like it would need to be changed if this idea for the first para is adopted, but not deleted. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Support. This is as neutral as it can be. Hacking or not will be shown as more information becomes available. However, I suggest this article should only cover the hacking. Create a new article titled "Climategate controversy" and move relevant portions there. What is relevant? Discussion, please. The reason for this suggestion is that in this way we create one nice tidy WP article and shift the problem... well... hopefully not under the carpet. Divide and conquer. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No. That would be a WP:POVFORK. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure? (I'm not familiar with what is appropriate.) I must have misunderstood you earlier when you tried to distinguish between the hacking and resulting controversy. A logical conclusion would be to split the article as the hacking and resulting controversy are disconnected. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No. See WP:POVFORK. The two are very much connected. Don't forget that from the scientists' perspective, this attack by anti-science activists on a respected scientific institution is quite unprecedented. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:12, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I still don't see it. The hacking incident - actually as I just found out is already covered at the CRU wiki page. That's one article max. "Climategate" would/should concern the allegations against the scientist from the CRU and elsewhere, their defense and counterarguments. This article could well be called "The Climategate controversy" as both the allegations and the counterarguments constitute the controversy. It could be made fairly short with links to relevant WP pages on climate science and relevant external links. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not, per WP:POVFORK. We've been down this road before, and the fork was deleted. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

This looks pretty good to me (Scjessey's most recent suggestion), and I think it's well worded. It seems a little more elegant than the current wording, and I think "dubbed" gets the tone about right. I assume the sentence about Climategate would just be removed from the next paragraph, then? I don't see a problem with ATren's suggestion either, as I don't think it's especially contentious to note that the university is having a committee look at it (who doesn't have a committee look at it?). Mackan79 (talk) 08:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I suggested at the "Criticism_of_the_IPCC_AR4" page discussing the factual part of "Glaciergate" to create a redirect there as otherwise someone will create an article titled Glaciergate. [47] As this so called "Climategate" article stands it is IMO better to redirect to a short set of facts then to show an equivalent of this page. 91.153.115.15 (talk) 09:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It's mostly fine although this sentence, "The subsequent dissemination of the material provoked a controversy, dubbed "Climategate", over allegations the content indicated misconduct by climate scientists", is still a bit awkward. To "provoke a controversy doesn't seem quite right" and "controvery over allegations the content indicated" is difficult to parse. How about, "The subsequent dissemination of the material caused a controversy, dubbed "Climategate", about whether or not the e-mails indicated misconduct by climate scientist"? I think the meaning is the same but to my ear, this flows better. JPatterson (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I think this is much better. Ignignot (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I think Jpat's update works too. Creating formal change proposal below... -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support SC Jessey's last proposal. Thanks for making a reasonable effort to address our concerns. We would need to bold "Climategate" per MOS. Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 17:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  I do not see "Climategate" as being an alternative title for this article, so I don't agree that bold type is necessary (or desirable). The redirect gets very few hits, if I recall correctly. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Public reaction

I'd like to expand the first sentence of this section from "The incident took place during a time when public certainty in the United States about the cause of global warming was declining." to "The incident took place during a time when public certainty in the United States about the cause of global warming was declining, even as the scientific consensus for a human contribution to global warming was growing stronger". If there is no objection, could someone make this change? I assume someone here can suggest an appropriate source for the additional clause. I also thought it would be kind of cool to include a small graph showing the poll results with our timeline superimposed. If I create such a graph, is that considered OR? Thanks. JPatterson (talk) 23:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the sentence is OK, if it can be sourced. Don't know about a graph, though, not sure how that meshes with WP:SYN and WP:OR ATren (talk) 14:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the entire section is worthless, quite frankly. I would be in favor of completely eradicating it. At best, it is only tangentially-related to the incident. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

For JPatterson. Here is a reliable source with a table to link to.[48]130.232.214.10 (talk) 11:01, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry! Only states "deal with global warming"130.232.214.10 (talk) 11:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

My first reaction is close to Scjessey’s. I would prefer to find a way to improve it, rather than remove it, and I believe that’s JPatterson’s goal, but I see the proposed change as a step in the wrong direction. On the surface, it looks like it contrasts two different groups showing a markedly different outlook on the same question. However, the positions are not as opposite as they appear. The scientists statement is unexceptional – does man contribute in any way to global warming? The answer (from both the scientist and me) is a resounding, “of course”. (I question that the trend in that answer is statistically significant, as that conclusion has been true for some time).

When it comes to the question asked of the general public, one has to be careful to interpret it. Dropping “confidence in global warming theory” can simply mean that some of the details which were presented as settled now don’t seem quite as settled as before. This doesn’t mean they are rejecting the notion that man contributes, they may just be rejecting that we know exactly how much or how everything works.

However, even if we were to clean this wording up, it would be relevant, if anywhere in an article about global warming, which is not this article. A poll about whether the CRU incident affected one’s thinking is potentially relevant, and I think that’s why it is here, but without an explicit question, one can only infer it based upon the timing of the poll, and to state it explicitly would be OR. So we are left with a statement that, as Scjessey notes, is only “tangentially related to the incident”.SPhilbrickT 12:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I see your point but note that there's a fair amount of OR in your remarks. We seem to keep stumbling over the same log, namely the WP standard for inclusion is verifiability, not Truth. I believe that, rightly or wrongly, most climatologists believe not just in AGW but that AGW is a significant threat to the planet and that, at least prior to the latest series of scandals (for lack of a better word) the trend towards consensus in the scientific community was moving in the opposite direction to that of the US public. Assuming there is a RS that agrees with that assessment (I have not yet looked for one), its inclusion would provide some context for understanding the social and political impact of the revelations (again I tend to think of the reader twenty years hence), a subject which interests me. YMMV. JPatterson (talk) 15:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Deleted Context in E-mails

As quoted here the e-mails are lacking context which is present in the original leaked versions. One particularly grievous example is the "Trenberth e-mail of 12 Oct 2009". The last line as quoted is "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." This an often-quoted version, and seen by some as the "smoking gun" of the hack since it implies an attempt to make the climate data fit the model.

In the original (as archived here), that was not the end of even that paragraph, much less the article. The paragraph it is cut from goes: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate." The rest of the message and the article it is marked as referring to go on to expand on this idea.

This is a clear case of cherry picking, the edit completely changes the meaning of the message. While the author's response to the reaction is included, using a deliberately edited version is still a violation of Wikipedia's neutrality.

• The part immediately before, "How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!", is in fact from a separate message and has been edited in with the line from 10-12 as though they were part of a single message.

The First part of the quote is from a different 10-14-09 message, part of the same exchange as the "how come you do not agree" section. As with the 'travesty' line, this is the first line of a long message and has a completely different meaning in context.

The section needs to be re-written to clearly show that this is not the complete text of a single message, but also to restore the context to the respective elements.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.18.61.242 (talk • contribs)

Agreed. Not only is the context obfuscated, but the content comes from different emails. This will need to be addressed. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well. Ignignot (talk) 15:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that we're stuck with quoting only what has been published in a secondary source. This allows all sorts of mischief on both sides. Since the CRU has vouched for the validity of the data, is there a problem with quoting any email discussed in a RS in enough detail as to provide the proper context, even if that complete context was not provided in the referenced source? JPatterson (talk) 20:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

JPatterson is right. We're in between a rock and a hard place here. While you may believe that there has been cherry picking, we are bound by WP:BLP to only quote reliable sources. We can only give exactly as much context as the sources have, if you believe this is cherry picking your issue is with those sources and not with this article. Oren0 (talk) 07:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

This may be one of the rare instances where a strong case can be made that WP:Ignore all rules. applies. In thinking this through, the standard I would propose is that the e-mail in question has to have been discussed in a RS, but once that threshold is met, we provide as much context as necessary to frame the issue fairly. JPatterson (talk) 19:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

From my reading, Trenberth himself chooses to quote that part alone, and respond to it without bringing in other quotes. If we cover his response adequately, there should be no need to invent a defence for him. . . dave souza, talk 19:45, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

More Literature

• The Hockey Stick Illusion - Climategate and the Corruption of Science, Andrew W. Montford[49]

Publisher: Stacey International[50] (2010)

This book is NOT self-published. Please add this to the article. 85.76.37.150 (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Add what to the article? You have not suggested any content that would use this book as a source. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:58, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Two books have covered Climategate. One was suggested in the subsection below (hidden) and found unsuitable so I suggested this one instead. Why not add a passage such as "The resultant controversy has so far inspired two books covering the controversy." Or "a book", take you pick. I find this a fairly reasonable request. 85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The book isn't notable enough to garner a section in this article. No reliable secondary sources adress the book in nearly enough detail to make it, in and of itself, even a footnote. Hipocrite (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find any reviews of it in the mainstream press or scholarly journals. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I find it notable in the extreme that two books have been published regarding a hacking incident at a University in little less than two months after the fact.85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not what you find notable; our inclusion standards look at what third party sources find notable (through book reviews, cites, etc.). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It's on the Dutch version of this page. I would like to take this to a vote: "raise your hands" if you find it notable that two books have been published in record time regarding a controversy regarding a hacking incident at a University. As simple yes on no will do.85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:26, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

We don't vote here. Hipocrite (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Look at it this way. If we were talking for instance about a persons biography we would note "... and has published two books." That is common sense notable. There is no need to explain the contents in detail. Writing a book is a major endeavor that should be recognized.85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If we were writing about an author, there would be a source demonstrating the notability of that person. We do not mention that there are thousands of books on David_(Michelangelo). It's just not a notable feature of this controversy that a bunch of blogers wrote vanity press books. Hipocrite (talk) 20:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree. The merits of who wrote the book can have no bearing on the notability of the action of writing a book in this context. If the hacking incident were not notable there would be no page to write about and no point to our discussion. As there is a page there is a point.85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. Who wrote a book is unimportant in most cases. But in order to have the book mentioned in this article, it itself should be notable. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

A blogger who thinks McIntyre is wonderful writes a book, and tacks a topical few words at the end – "Note that it was largely written before the emails from CRU became public, though there is a final chapter dealing quickly with them." Clearly reflecting fringe views, not a source for the science. . . dave souza, talk 20:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not talking about science. The science is not a concern. The controversy has resulted in two books, a major endeavor. The quality of content is irrelevant.85.76.37.150 (talk) 20:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

We don't care if it took ten years to write a book. If it's not notable, it doesn't belong here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

This article isn't really about a scientific topic though. If a layman writes a book about this specific incident and gets widespread coverage then it could potentially be mentioned here. That hasn't happened so far though. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Here are the rankings. But I would like to point out they are the #1 and #2 ranking books on Climategate. ;-) What ranking is needed to qualify?

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,268 in Books[51] Amazon.co.uk Sales Rank: #1,373 in Books[52]85.76.37.150 (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazon rank, Amazon rank... nope, not in Wikipedia:Notability (books) --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

85.76.37.150, do you have anything to do with the book's publishers or authors? Because this looks very much like an attempt to promote a non-notable book. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely no connection. I haven't even read the books! The book could be complete crap or excellent for all I know. (P.S. could be a new IP yet again...)130.232.202.241 (talk) 09:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

My primary motivation was irritation with Scjessey on his "fair" review on Amazon.com as he had not even read the book. Bad form.130.232.202.241 (talk) 09:45, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

In your opinion. I would classify it as the mostest awesomest review in the history of the world, EVAR! -- Scjessey (talk) 14:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I would call it a factual assessment of your review. You should not judge a book by it's cover. This review should be held against you to show prejudice. My motive, irritation, gave me the energy persevere with a fact based and logical response. I managed to separate feelings and prejudice when suggesting this entry. My suggestions was debated in a constructive manner and I hope this gave something of value to the debate. Goodbye for now as I need to take break for paid work. (Oh. Amazon rankings were mentioned in Wikipedia:Notability (books), a gray area I think.)130.232.214.10 (talk) 17:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Literature

Self published print on demand books are not reliable sources
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
From the dutch (Nederlands) version of this page if found this book. The Crutape Letters-Mosher, Steven & Fuller, Thomas W.-2010 Please add this to the article. 85.77.195.39 (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC) Self published print on demand books are not reliable sources. Hipocrite (talk) 16:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Article move

Does this have any sort of consensus? Hipocrite (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I`m for it :) --mark nutley (talk) 18:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you believe it has any sort of consensus? IE - is it an appropriate thing to do? Hipocrite (talk) 18:37, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Clearly the title you have reverted to is improper and misleading. The notability of the event is only in a small part related to the hacking. Most of the coverage has been a discussion about the contents of the e-mail and the ensuing controversy. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

As discussed previously, it all arises from the hacking incident. Your proposal doesn't cover all of the hacked material, and misleadingly suggests that they were internal emails. Inappropriate. . . dave souza, talk 18:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you think we should rename watergate to "break in at a hotel"? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I've renamed the article to reflect that it's not just about the hacking incident. There was an effort to split off the controversy over the e-mails, but as that hasn't been done this title better reflects the broader scope of the article and its contents which covers not only the hacking but the controversy over the e-mails. This seems the best approach to have neautral wording and an appropriate title that encompasses all apsects of the events and their ramifications. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Of all the names the article could have this one must be the worst. And it gives no respect at all for the patient and collaborative efforts Scjessey has put in to suggest all sorts of names for discussion. It won't do and can't stay. Was there not controversy over more than emails? Over computer code, for example? Itsmejudith (talk) 18:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Just so. It's a disruptive move without any consultation, and for a start fails to cover the data and programs that were also hacked and illicitly distributed. . . . dave souza, talk 18:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I've undone the move. I'll just chalk this one up to a failed attempt to BRD, but let me note that moving a page should not be boldly attempted when we've discussed it to death a billion times. Hipocrite (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Please don't return the article to a misleading and innaccurate title. The subject and the contents are not just about the hacking, but about the controversy over the e-mails themselves. That's what most of the coverage in reliable sources discusses, well beyond the hacking incident. So a return to the former title would be very misleading and innacurate. If there is a better title let's use that one, but this one is a clear improvement over the improperly narrow title that was being used previously.

An article's title must reflect the article contents. An effort was made to split off the controversy over the e-mails, but that was reverted. The present title is misleading as it addresses only the hacking, a small part of the coverage, and ignores the much bigger issue about what was in the e-mails and the ensuing controversy. I'm okay with having separate article on the hacking and the e-mails if that's the way to go, but we can't have a distorted article that is titled and stilted to address only the hacking, as if the e-mails themselves aren't the center of the controversy and what makes the subject so notable. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Although I dislike the current title, consensus has not been reached and this move should be reverted. Moves like this threaten the progress we're started towards a more collaborative editing environment. JPatterson (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment as to how appropriate the current title is, but this article is under probation and we should be reaching a consensus before doing anything so dramatic. Ignignot (talk) 18:54, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll add my support to those arguing that this was an improper and unsupported move. Verbal chat 18:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Completely improper move, with inappropriate wording and inaccurate to boot. Knock it off, CoM. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The present title is inappropriate, inaccurate and misleading, as has been noted repeatedly by numerous editors. So reverting to this title was improper and disruptive. It restores a contentious article name that is not supported by the sources or a consensus of editors. If there's a better solution than the neutrally worded title the I moved the article to, then please present it instead of disrupting discussion to engage in attacks on good faith contributors working to fix and improve our article content. Thank you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

CoM, the article title has been the subject of a huge amount of controversy. It's unwise - no, strike that - it's completely stupid for you to jump in and start changing the article title, one of the key flashpoints on this talk page, without any prior discussion whatsoever. Persuade editors that your preferred title is better. Do not attempt to impose it. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Leaving aside your personal attacks for the moment, I agree that the present title that it's been reverted to is contentious and a flashpoint. It reflects only one side of the dispute and does not cover the most notable aspects of the controversy. It's completely unacceptable and reverting to it despite all the opposition is disruptive. There were some quibbles made about the new title not including note of the data that was also released. We should focus on addressing those concerns instead of making knee-jerk reversion to a version of the article that is not neutral or accurate, and that doesn't meet our standards such as WP:MOS that indicate the most notable aspects of a subject should be presented in the lead instead of being buried further down in the article. Please focus on the article contents and our editing guidelines instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me ask you a very simple question: you agree that the title is contentious and a flashpoint. Why then did you attempt a unilateral renaming and major changes to the lead without bothering to discuss them first? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

When there is a problem I try to fix it and to resolve the dispute instead of perpetuating it. By reverting without explanation and continuing to preserve a contentious, disputed and misleading article title and a poorly organized lead that ignores the most notable aspects of the controversy, you have exacerbated the problem. Your focus on other editors rather than the article contents, relevant guidelines, and sources, is also disruptive. If there is reasoning behind your content changes then please explain what it is. I have explained the changes I made and other editors have explained why this title is unacceptable. Using the article to focus mostly on the hacking is improper and neglects the most notable aspects of the controversy. This violates wp:npov wp:mos and wp:weight. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

CoM, your actions give the unfortunate impression that you're acting disruptively to push through a scientific fringe viewpoint and give undue weight to minority scientific positions. Please discuss proposals before making such changes to well discussed aspects of the article. . . dave souza, talk 20:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The impression is the reality, unfortunately. Unilateral renames of this article should be met with an instant article ban IMO, as this has been a source of much contention over the last few months here. Tarc (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I do feel this, and the comments above, warrant an enforcement action. Verbal chat 21:22, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Then file one. Merely talking about filing one won't achieve anything. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:25, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I wont file one if others reasonably think it is unwarranted. It's too late here anyway for that kind of work :) Verbal chat 21:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I just move-protected the page, so any future moves will have to go through the WP:Requested moves process. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:45, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Very good idea. Verbal chat 21:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I think an enforcement action should be filed - we're all experienced editors here. There is no reason to make personal attacks on each other, regardless of the status of this article, and this one is under probation for pete's sake. This is some of the worst behavior that I have seen from people who actually make many valuable contributions. It actually makes me feel ill. Ignignot (talk) 22:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

If you are feeling physically ill while reading Wikipedia please consider seeking medical assistance, it may not be that Wikipedia is the cause but something in your environment. Weakopedia (talk) 23:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't like the current name either, but given the probation and the previous discussions this move was obviously boneheaded. Did you really think it wouldn't be immediately reverted? Why not propose a new name and start a move discussion? Oren0 (talk) 07:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Problematic Trenberth edit

Instead of simply deleting content, good manners would suggest we discuss the issue here first, even if the article were not under probation. The material in question is easy sourced, e.g. here and here. Please revert this change and add the references. Thanks. JPatterson (talk) 18:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I'm trying to use your sources to find Trebberth writing all three of those quotes in one email. Could you provide that? Hipocrite (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

While it might have been more collegiate to have started with a tag, the sources suggested have problems. The first one seems well balanced, but doesn't seem to mention this particular point in the article. Comments won't do. The second one is based on spin by a research associate at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and contributor to OpenMarket.org, unsuitable for describing the science. . . dave souza, talk 18:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

All that is required here is that the quoted content be published in a reliable source. Both of these sources qualify as [WP:RS] JPatterson (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I'm trying to use your sources to find Trebberth writing all three of those quotes in one email. Could you provide that? Hipocrite (talk) 19:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

All three are in the same e-mail thread, the entirety of which was posted on both RC and CA. However, I agree that the top quote "Saying it is natural variability is not an explanation. What are the physical processes? Where did the heat go?", has not been published in a reliable source. If consensus is that we can't use RC or CA then that portion of the quote should be removed. The rest should be restored. JPatterson (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you asking me to restore the false and possibly defamatory statement that these statements by Trenberth are all from a "Trenberth e-mail of 12 Oct 2009?" I'm sorry, I can't do that, since I don't attempt to falsify the encyclopedia. However, if you'd like to propose a replacement to the removed text that is neither false nor defamatory, I'd be happy to edit that in. Hipocrite (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The context you removed was in support of Trenbreth's explanation that he was discussing energy balance and not AWG. If you asked him, I'm sure he would prefer the original. My position is we should provide as much context as possible in fairness to the scientists and our readers. Towards that end, I would like to attempt a re-write based on this analysis from Yale, which examines the entire thread. Before I do though, I would like consensus that

1) We should provide more context than is currently provided

2) The Yale analysis is an acceptable source.

I of course will seek consensus here on the wording. JPatterson (talk) 18:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The sentence remaining is better than the Frankenstein creation of pieces from 3 messages it was, but still misleading. The information given later in the section as his explanation is also given in full in the original e-mail, but as it reads now it looks like an excuse after the fact. The two pieces removed were from messages later in the conversation (linked above) and could possibly be used to clarify further. The published versions are so hacked up by the denialists that Trenberth could probably win a libel lawsuit over them; this restriction to using only that material will make representing any of these e-mails fairly an exercise in futility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.18.61.242 (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Other expert commentary section

Just to make an observation here, but isn't it a bit of an undue weight problem to devote an entire subsection in this article to one man's opinion? This rather lengthy paragraph may need to be cut down and merged elsewhere in the article, unless more material can bolster and balance the section. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The statement is incorrect anyway. Creationists do this for biology all the time, and they have even gotten their views taught in American public schools a few times in just the last decade (before having them legally forced out each time). The tactics are largely identical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.18.61.242 (talk) 05:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

These are valid views by an expert historian, it might be possible to reconsider other section headings to merge the information elsewhere but they provide a significant expert outside view rather than the views of participants in the debate. It would be useful to find more such expert commentary for the section. Anon's view is unsupported by evidence, and to the best of my knowledge creationists haven't gone so far in trying to damage professional reputations. . . dave souza, talk 05:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed change to the first paragraph

A rough consensus is forming (see earlier section) for the following text to replace the first paragraph of the lede:

The Climatic Research Unit hacking incident came to light in November 2009 when it was discovered that thousands of e-mails and other documents had been obtained through the hacking of a server used by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, England. The subsequent dissemination of the material caused a controversy, dubbed "Climategate", about whether or not the e-mails indicated misconduct by climate scientists. The University of East Anglia described the incident as an illegal taking of data. The police are conducting a criminal investigation of the server breach and subsequent personal threats made against some of the scientists mentioned in the e-mails.

I am, therefore, turning this into a formal proposal and seek to build a consensus. I believe this has reasonable support from both "sides" of the debate, and so I request supports/opposes/comments to get a general idea of how this might be received. If adopted, it will mean the second paragraph will also need a little bit of revising, but we can get to that next. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC) - Note: This subsection broken out of earlier section and moved here. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support - as proposer. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
• Concern "dubbed" by who? Hipocrite (talk) 13:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  That's a valid concern, but I believe the assertion is well qualified in the body of the article with the "Naming of the incident" section, although "Naming of the controversy" would be more accurate. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support - takes a refreshingly neutral approach with no clear injection of opinion, well weighted. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 13:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• CommentSupport – In many ways, a nice improvement over the existing wording, reflecting the opinions of many contributors. While I personally don’t feel the coverage of the personal threats belongs anywhere in the article, I don’t feel strongly enough to fight for its removal. However, it doesn’t come close to meriting a mention in the opening sentence. If a period is placed after “breach”, I’ll support. SPhilbrickT 13:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  Er... that bit is already in the first paragraph; the result of an earlier consensus-building discussion. The new bit under consideration is the second sentence, and the rest of the paragraph is there for contextual convenience. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  I’m under the weather at the moment, so not up for the research necessary at the moment, but my recollection is that I and others have objected numerous times to the inclusion in the lede. At one time, it said deaths threats – if “personal threats” was the result of a census based compromise, I may have missed it, but it doesn’t change my opinion – the coverage of the personal threats has been tiny, and there’s no evidence that they amounted to anyone other than usual bluster of idiots. I’m not challenging that some coverage exists, but if this coverage is sufficient to deserve mention in the lede, every single article on every single President would have an entry in the first sentence. SPhilbrickT 14:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  The sentence you are talking about is covered in another section on this talk page, and you are free to address this matter in that other section. This discussion is about the new sentence that seeks to address the concerns of those who want "Climategate" covered in the first paragraph. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  I reviewed the other sections and added my objection there. My reading of the discussion is that it did not receive consensus, but merely remained due to exhaustion of the participants. I like most of what you wrote, but it contains phrasing which was not the result of consensus.SPhilbrickT 16:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  Changed to support subject to the condition that my support not be construed as support for the inclusion of the “personal threats” phrase, and after we complete this discussion, I will open a discussion about that phrase (discussed without reaching a consensus upthread)SPhilbrickT 17:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  Thank you. I'd like to reiterate for the benefit of all interested parties that comments in support of the proposed wording shall not be misconstrued as comments in support of the entire paragraph. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - support if the new text reflected what's already in the article per Scjessey's observation above, change to something like "...dubbed Climategate by climate change skeptics..." Also support Sphilbrick's suggestion to delete the attack portion.Mirboj (talk) 14:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  Who actually "dubbed" the controversy "Climategate" is not easy to fairly encapsulate with the brevity expected in the lede of the article. I'd much rather see this vaguely summarized in the lede (as in this proposal) and have it properly explored in the body of the article. Again, what you call the "attack portion" is not under discussion in this section, and trying to cover that ground here may potentially derail this effort. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  As currently written, the article attributes use of the term "climategate" to skeptics, if the lede reflects what's in the article this change should garner more support. Mirboj (talk) 15:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  Well you would think so, but this is a more complex situation. This is an attempt to erect a "bigger tent". Many of the contributing editors here are unhappy with the specific language in the body of the article that you refer to, but are still keen to see the term "Climategate" appear in the first paragraph of the lede in some form. By being deliberately ambiguous about the term's origin in the lede, we are able to (hopefully) come to an agreement that gives that first paragraph some stability. The lede has been the primary reason for edit warring on this article, so stability is an admirable goal. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support -- Seems reasonable NickCT (talk) 17:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment The trouble with this argument is that by "seek[ing] to address the concerns of those who want X" and attempting to erect ever bigger tents, it means that for every half-dozen new WP:SPAs that extreme right-wing and other fringe blogs can send us, provided they have the tenacity to add to the disruption for a few weeks, we will erect a bigger tent, incorporate a bit more of their views, and eventually, their purpose is served and WP suffers a little more. --Nigelj (talk) 17:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  While I appreciate your concern, I think it is reasonable to say that we are quite capable of identifying the difference between regular editors and SPAs. As long as the origin of the term "Climategate" is properly exposed covered in the body of the article, I do not see this as a slippery slope issue. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

  I wish Nigel would stop throwing out inflamatory remarks regarding people that he disagrees with. Continued attempts to frame this as right-wing extremism is certainly not a very civil approach, and it makes it hard to believe that you can compromise with anyone that you don't agree with. Arzel (talk) 15:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  That is not a helpful contribution either. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support - Thanks for taking the lead on this. JPatterson (talk) 18:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I'm surprised there haven't been more responses yet. It seems that everyone is too busy with teh dramaz to care about improving the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  The problem, it seems, is the all-or-nothing crowd, which has members on both "sides" of the debate. Just because we can't find consensus on everything all at once doesn't mean we can't make positive changes in one or two areas at a time. It seems everyone agrees that the proposed edit is a move in the right direction. For now, let's stick with that. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 18:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  Thus far, most of the responses have come from the those who are generally skeptical of AGW (with one or two exceptions). I'd like to see responses from some of the others before declaring any sort of consensus. There will come a point, however, where WP:SILENCE kicks in. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support Seems like a fair compromise to me over everything which has been debated. --mark nutley (talk) 12:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support with condition Climategate needs to be Bolded in the section. It is the term to which this will be known for all time. Arzel (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  That is not the case. "Climategate" refers to the controversy that followed the hacking incident. It is not directly synonymous with what this article describes, but merely a subset of it (albeit it a significant one). As such, it is technically incorrect for "Climategate" to be rendered in a bold typeface; however, it is certainly something that can be discussed. Are you explicitly stating that you are opposed to this proposal if your condition isn't met? I feel I should point out that if no consensus is found here, the existing text will remain in place. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:06, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  SCJ: per WP:MOS & WP:REDIR, redirects to the main title are to be bolded when used in the article text. Also note that "redirects are not covered by Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy." --Pete Tillman (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  That's not strictly correct. Both of these are just guidelines, and can easily be overridden by local consensus; nevertheless, it remains an open question and I am personally okay with it being in bold type if this proposal is implemented. Do you support this proposal, or did you just want to comment about this related issue? -- Scjessey (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

  Not to speak for Pete, but I would suggest that in the interest of moving things forward, the question of whether to bold the word "Climategate" or not should probably wait until consensus is determined for or against the proposed wording. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 23:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I like to see closure on this issue. I think the proposed change would allow us to take a big step forward toward removal of the non-NPOV banner. It's been up for days now, the comments have been positive from one-side of the gully and silence from the other. I'd say that's about as close to consensus as we get around here. Going once, going twice? ... JPatterson (talk) 15:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's been 2½ days, with no "opposes" and plenty of activity in other threads. I hate to claim consensus by virtue of WP:SILENCE, but we are getting into that territory. Let's wait until the 3-day mark (approx midnight UTC) before doing anything. In the meantime, we should give a little thought as to how this change will impact the second paragraph. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

WTF? Is "concern" not an "oppose" unless it's bold? Hipocrite (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I read "concern" as "question", so I provided what I thought was a reasonable response. I took your lack of response to my comment as an agreement that your concern had been addressed. Sorry if I misunderstood. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I raised a concern, and I don't believe it was adressed. I can't agree to the inclusion of climategate without mention of who uses and created the name - the bigger tent argument is great and all, but it dosen't seem like there's any give at all from the other "side" of this tent, so, no. Hipocrite (talk) 16:01, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's handled by the "Naming of the incident" section, although I think it should be "Naming of the controversy". -- Scjessey (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Would it help to alleviate your concern if we added "(see Naming of the Controversy)" after "Climategate") in the proposal above? JPatterson (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

So let's remove "climategate" from the lede alltogether, because it's handled by the naming of the incident section. Or, we could add "swifthack," because that's included in the naming of the incident section also. Hipocrite (talk) 16:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you must have missed much of the conversation that led to this proposal. It was based on the fact that "Climategate" refers to the controversy (not the incident). "Swifthack", in contrast, refers to the incident itself. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Rather, swifthack refers to the same thing climategate refers to, except to note that it is, in the opinion of the person calling it swifthack a manufactured controversy. I'm not willing to give an inch to have a mile taken here, so sorry. The current lede works fine. Hipocrite (talk) 16:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support - The proposed text is significantly better and clearer that what we have - and I see consensus supporting this change as well. We're not going to get 100% agreement here. Time to implement. Ronnotel (talk) 16:23, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

  I would still prefer to give it a little more time, since this is the first paragraph of the lede. I don't want to jump the gun and start an edit war. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Concern about redirects

I am concerned about the increasing number of redirects to this article, particularly those that seem pointy in nature, such as:

• "Pachaurigate" - created by Nsaa
• "Glaciergate" - created by Nsaa
• "Amazongate" - created by Nsaa

As far as I can tell, none of these are related to the CRU hack in any significant way. Besides these, there seems to be others that I would regard as implausible (such as "HARRY READ ME.txt"). What does everyone else think? -- Scjessey (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't heard of these names, but going by this blog entry (I'm not claiming RS, calm down) they aren't relevant to this article. I don't think WP:pointy applies, but I agree they should definitely not redirect here. How does one keep an eye out for these? --Heyitspeter (talk) 18:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You can monitor such things here. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks.--Heyitspeter (talk) 18:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Code section

The code section was utter rubbish, based on a misunderstanding by Newsnight on the difference between research / graphical code and the actual code used to construct the series, so I've removed it William M. Connolley (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I reinserted it, you need to prove newsnight was wrong with reliable sources, newsnight say they got it right after all. --mark nutley (talk) 11:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Newsnight isn't a RS for code. They are hopelessly wrong; and you don't have the ability to judge either. Incidentally, complaining about blind reverts which aren't is a bit off when blind unthinking reverting is exactly what you've done - have you considered being civil? William M. Connolley (talk) 11:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

What makes you think it was a blind revert? I read it first. Newsnight is a RS, it does not matter if your pov thinks it is not. As stated, give reliable sources proving newsnight got it wrong or leave the text in. --mark nutley (talk) 11:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW, do not lecture me on being civil after saying this and you don't have the ability to judge either I am capable of reading and understanding a great many things --mark nutley (talk) 11:35, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Relax, everyone. No need for this fuss. I've commented on WMC's talk page asking him to seek consensus for bold removals. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes i saw that, thank you. mark nutley (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:OR and WP:V aren't going to allow you to remove Newsnight. --Heyitspeter (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

P'raps WMC has a reliable source which backs his claim. Then again, p'raps WMC should brush up a bit on WP:OR. Nightmote (talk) 17:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the Newsnight stuff was roundly discredited. Our own article has a source on this matter, so it seems that WMC was right. That's not an excuse for carving it out without prior discussion though. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't say one way or the other. Newsnight's "expert" (I don't know the fellow) says it's climate change code. The author of the opinion piece says it's not. Probably the author spoke to someone or read something that contradicts that position but (as the author points out) Newsnight hasn't retracted the story and the author didn't produce a name or any touch-and-feel truth. Until a reliable source refutes it, the statement bears weight. Nightmote (talk) 19:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that you chose to respond here and ignore my points below, NM. However, if you read the Guardian piece you will find, "Neither of the two pieces of code Newsnight examined were anything to do with the HadCRUT temperature record at all, which is actually maintained at the Met Office". That is a statement of fact, not opinion. Myles Allen is head of the Climate Dynamics group at University of Oxford's Atmospheric, Oceanic and Planetary Physics Department, so it is reliably sourced to an informed and capable scientist. That one fact means that all the speculation in the world about how bad the code was is irrelevant - we don't know what it was written or used for. --Nigelj (talk) 19:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The "Guardian piece" is an op-ed.--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't "ignore" anything, Nigel. Little quick to jump to conclusions, there. You will forgive me, I'm sure, but I must have missed the part about what Myles says the code was for. He does claim that it's not part of the HadCRUT record, alright, but as far as I can see that's kind of where he stops. Is that record available to the public? Has anyone compared it to the Newsnight-identified code? A comparison like that would certainly be a great reliable source, I'd say, and would definitively show that the code wasn't used there. Good catch! Nightmote (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed removal

Following Nightmote Hipocrite's reorganization of this section, I'd like to propose we remove the second paragraph completely. Stuff like "various editorials and blogs have stated" and a quote from Declan McCullagh that adds nothing but crystal ball gazing "what-iffery" isn't worthy of this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

(insert joke) That is *not* my child. Nightmote (talk) 19:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. My bad. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi. That edit is mine. It was undone. I support redoing it, and I also support removing the second paragraph wich adds nothing. Hipocrite (talk) 18:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

There are sources, reliable sources and then there's reality. In reality no one actually knows what that code was used for, if anything other than experiments, teaching and playing. There are hundreds of useless sources (blogs etc) that would like to use the code to prove all kinds of nonsense, there is even one 'reliable source', that as WMC says were well out of their editorial depth and allowed a piece of nonsense to be aired. Then there are a few actual reliable sources like The Guardian above who actually know that the code proves nothing until we know what it was used for. I don't think we can really be expected to give equal weight to all the nonsense next to the reality. Once the investigations are in, we may know what the code was used for, and where they keep the real stuff that was used in the published papers. Until then, can we trim this section down to saying that there was some code, but no one knows what it was written or used for? Which accords with reality. --Nigelj (talk) 18:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Mark Nutley has presented it as a reliably-sourced fact, Nigel. If you don't like it, the burden lies with you to find a relibale source that proves that the code is something other than what his source says it is. Otherwise this article becomes nothing more than POV-pushing from the uninformed who are unable (or unwilling) to understand the science. Nightmote (talk) 19:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Well that's not really true, is it. We have it on good authority from an expert in this field that the Newsnight piece was pretty much nonsense, akin to criticizing a clay mockup of a car for the way it drives. Also, one actually has to question whether or not Newsnight is any more valid a reliable source as the opinion piece in the Guardian. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you paste specific sentences? or simply a proposed "final" version? As people have indicated the section is still actively/currently edited.--Heyitspeter (talk) 19:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are you guys debating this twice, here and in the subsection above? And if that's how you want to debate it, why don't you read the other thread? Myles Allen, head of the Climate Dynamics group at University of Oxford's Atmospheric, Oceanic and Planetary Physics Department, said (in print, in the Guardian) after the Newsnight broadcast, "Neither of the two pieces of code Newsnight examined were anything to do with the HadCRUT temperature record at all, which is actually maintained at the Met Office". That is a statement of fact (not opinion) reliably sourced to a domain expert. He went on to say that they said "this is climate change code", which means nothing until you know what, if any, use it was ever put to. So, while it is a fact that Newsnight wasted time and money on creating and broadcasting a meaningless piece of journalism, it is also a fact that we do not know what the code was written for. I think you need a reliable source that does know what it was for if you want to ignore the refutation of the Newsnight position ("this is climate change code" without saying what it was ever used for). --Nigelj (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, this section should really be removed completely, since it is mostly based on Newsnight's mistake. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"Current" version

The CRU files also included temperature reconstruction programs written in Fortran and IDL, programmer comments and a readme file. In a BBC Newsnight report, software engineer John Graham-Cumming found the code to be "below the standard you'd expect in any commercial software" because it lacked clear documentation or an audit history. Graham-Cumming also reported finding a bug in the code's error handling that could result in data loss. Other investigations posted in various editorials and blogs have stated that the comments and readme files indicate that the temperature reconstructions hide and manipulate data to show a temperature increase and question the accuracy of the instrumental temperature record. In his CBS News blog, columnist Declan McCullagh stated that "East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit might have avoided this snafu by publicly disclosing as much as possible at every step of the way."

Myles Allen, head of the Climate Dynamics group at the University of Oxford, said that the code investigated by Newsnight had nothing at all to do with the HadCRUT temperature record used for climate reconstructions, which is maintained at the Met Office and not at CRU. When he challenged Newsnight on this, they responded that "Our expert's opinion is that this is climate change code" and declined to retract the story. He commented that on the same basis the quality of code he put together for students could be used to discredit other research code.

--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed version

I propose the following, shortened version, written to take account, from the start, of our (i.e. everyone's) current ignorance as to purpose:

The CRU files also included temperature data processing software written in Fortran and IDL as well as programmer comments and a readme file. There is no indication as to the purpose of the code, nor any that it was ever used in the preparation of data for publication. Various sources, including a BBC Newsnight report, have found the code to be "below the standard you'd expect in any commercial software" possibly including bugs and poor error handling.

Myles Allen, head of the Climate Dynamics group at the University of Oxford, said that the code investigated by Newsnight had nothing at all to do with the HadCRUT temperature record used for climate reconstructions, which is maintained at the Met Office and not at CRU. When he challenged Newsnight on this, they responded that "Our expert's opinion is that this is climate change code" and declined to retract the story. He commented that on the same basis the quality of code he put together for students could be used to discredit other research code.

--Nigelj (talk) 20:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Support - Fine with me. Either that or get rid of the whole section. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I oppose it as is, but I'm fine with working on it and have specific contentions that can be addressed. The "possibly including" is OR. Newsnight reported a bug, they didn't say that the code possibly included a bug. This sentence - "There is no indication as to the purpose of the code, nor any that it was ever used in the preparation of data for publication" - needs to be clearly cited and/or teased out so it's clear that the sources Newsnight, Washington Times and Computer World support it. --Heyitspeter (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

In order to define a 'bug', you would have to know what the code was supposed to do. I believe the bug was that the software could drop or omit some data points. Without more detail, that might have been exactly what the code was meant to show students how to do. --Nigelj (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:OR.--Heyitspeter (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Your other point is a negative. Someone else would have to provide a source that did show that it was used for some purpose, e.g. publication. --Nigelj (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

:) You appear to be saying that we should include unsourced assertions in the article until their contraries are sourced. I hope/expect that's not what you mean. Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, and all that.

In any case, I think I've been misunderstood. My point is only that the sentence needs a clear citation or needs to be removed. --Heyitspeter (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

It all needs to be removed. Newsnight screwed up. Funny thing is, a couple of months ago all the skeptics were apoplectic about how the "biased", "pro-AGW" BBC sat on the CRU data. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the connection to that affair, nor have I heard of it. As for Newsnight, it doesn't matter whether they screwed up. Remember WP:V. Feel free to find RS' that support your claim and add them to the article, though. As is we only have an op-ed piece. --Heyitspeter (talk) 23:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

[53] Ypur reliable source is an op-ed in CIF? no way, get a decent one please. Neither of the two pieces of code Newsnight examined were anything to do with the HadCRUT temperature record at all, which is actually maintained at the Met Office How can that statement even be right? Do you expect me to believe cru had no code at cru to work with? It was all kept at the met, pull the other one. Plus i have actually looked through a lot of the code files myself, it is most certainly what newsnight said it was. mark nutley (talk) 23:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Expert speaking on the topic of his expertise. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Come now kim, less sarcasm please. If our roles were reversed you would be asking for reliable sources would you not? mark nutley (talk) 07:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Marknutley, your assumption of sarcasm is unfounded. The opinion published in the reliable source is that of a published expert on the subject, whose views could be acceptable for use as a rs even if self-published. Op-eds are inappropriate because newspaper editors aren't published experts on the specific subject, this is an expert opinion. . . dave souza, talk 07:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Newsnight is not a WP:RS on computer code. Myles is correct: the code concerned is not the code that constructs the record. MN is, as usual, defending anything anti-GW, regardless of reality William M. Connolley (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Please comment on edits, not editors. In any case, according to WP:RS, "For information about academic topics, both scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are acceptable, depending on context." I don't see how anyone could argue that Newsnight (i.e., the BBC) is not an RS, especially given that they incorporated experts into their review process.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The quality of arguments against shortening or removing this section are very poor. I say, "No-one knows what the code is for" and everyone screams, "Prove it! Get a citation!". You don't need to cite a negative, you need to find a citation that does reliably know what the code was written for. It is obvious that no one knows, as there is no reliable source that says, "This code was written for X", there is only supposition. We have a reliable cite that Newsnight got it wrong and had no counterargument when this was pointed out. ("It's climate change code" doesn't help, it still leaves the question, written for what use? For testing? For teaching? As part a post-grad student's homework?) In the absence of any more rational argument I shall make the change proposed above. --Nigelj (talk) 10:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason you need a citation before adding that sentence is that its addition without the citation would be in direct violation of WP:PROVEIT, which states that "the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation," (not my emphasis) and of WP:OR.

(You are currently arguing that you don't need to cite statements phrased in the negative! If this were true it would be completely acceptable for me to add the sentence, "The CRU does not plan on continuing operations past the year 2011" to the lede of this article, since it's in the negative, and good luck finding a citation that states "The CRU is planning on continuing operations past the year 2011.")--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:21, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

This is in direct opposition to your position under #E-mail row unit 'broke data law' below, where you encourage people to add information (that you approve of) without discussion of the reliability of the source or their interpretation of it here. Once something is in, you fight like this to prevent it being removed or summarised differently. The Newsnight findings have been publicly discredited, yet we quote them as fact. The sentence you are so worried about is cited, to [54], which was always cited at the end. (I have explicitly cited the sentence itself now above.) The cite says, "Presumably, then, the quality of the code I use to put together problems for our physics undergraduates shows that we should not trust results from my colleagues who work on the Large Hadron Collider on the grounds that "it is all physics code"." How much clearer could he be? This is code that could have been used put together problems for undergraduates. It could have been used for anything! Find a reference to say what it was used for, or we will have to say, "There is no indication as to the purpose of the code, nor any that it was ever used in the preparation of data for publication", as in the proposal above. --Nigelj (talk) 13:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Information Commissioner’s Office

Apparently as a part of the investigation the ICO has found that FOIA requests were not handled properly. It has not yet hit a reliable secondary source, or even the ICO website, but eventually someone will mention it. Something to keep an eye on (not add until RS'd) Ignignot (talk) 20:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

As presented, this appeared to me to be a clear breach of WP:CRYSTAL and WP:TALK on a sensitive subject, so having commented I archived it. As requested, I've restored your comment. . . dave souza, talk 06:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is sourcing for the ICO finding. We now know that the FOIA requests were mis-handled, which is a material element to this issue. This should be mentioned in the article. Ronnotel (talk) 13:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's already in the article, but thanks anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:57, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right - I missed it. It's not in a very logical place I think - I was looking under the section on government reaction. Ronnotel (talk) 14:01, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

As discussed below, Heyitspeter added a mention under Emails, while I added a more detailed account to the Jones e-mail of May 2008 section which relates to the period and the emails the ICO discuss. No objection if others think these would be better merged and moved to the government reaction section. . . dave souza, talk 14:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring it - I can see how it would appear that way at first glance. I've since located it online [55]

The University of East Anglia breached the Freedom of Information Act by refusing to comply with requests for data concerning claims by its scientists that man-made emissions were causing global warming... could not prosecute those involved because the complaint was made too late, The Times has learnt. The ICO is now seeking to change the law to allow prosecutions if a complaint is made more than six months after a breach.

This should probably be worked into the section on reactions, specifically the results of investigation. There is plenty more in the article though. Is there any view as to the reliability of the Sunday Times? It looks like a reputable paper and RS.

(PS) (e/c) (e/c) - ah. Didn't see it in there. Ignignot (talk) 14:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The Sunday Times is definitely a reliable source when it is doing straight reporting, but obviously its generally conservative bias (News Corp ownership) must be considered when it comes to their editorial content. Like many newspapers struggling to handle New Media pressure, its "straight reporting" suffers from more and more editorial comment as it tries to compete for increasingly bored readers. In this instance, the reporting on the ICO findings is accurate, but the reporters haven't been able to resist using headline-grabbing buzzwords like "scandal", "stolen", etc. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, agree. Some of their reporting on this issue has been questionable, this one looks generally OK but I thought The Guardian's report was more informative, and likely to be seen as fairer. A quibble, as a weekday report this one is from The Times rather than its Sunday sister paper. . . dave souza, talk 14:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added the OIC's statement to the Timeline section, which seemed appropriate, given that's where their involvement is discussed. I sourced the update from several news outlets, which will hopefully forestall any disagreement over which are RS and which are not. I also stayed as close as possible to the OIC's wording, for the sake of accuracy. --DGaw (talk) 15:36, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

E-mail row unit 'broke data law'

E-mail row unit 'broke data law' A university unit involved in a row over stolen e-mails on climate research breached rules by withholding data, the Information Commissioner's Office says. Off2riorob (talk) 03:48, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Remember you can just add this content to the article yourself. Posting RS links here first introduces a middleman unnecessarily, as far as I can tell. I've just added it myself, though, so don't worry about it. --Heyitspeter (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know about that middle man thing but thanks, I have added things to climate change articles a couple of times and just got reverted, so I don't bother now, I just posted it to the talkpage as it was breaking news and that it could well be worthwhile content.Off2riorob (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

<edit conflict> Thanks, good to have reliable sources appearing on this. I've added some detail based on the Guardian's story which was pretty informative. The ICO have yet to make the press release available on their website, don't think a FOI request will be needed to get it from them. Added: don't know if Heyitspeter's addition is superfluous, others can review. Talking first is often a good idea, well done. . . dave souza, talk 07:26, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Cool, thank you. Off2riorob (talk) 07:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think in the light of the article probation, discussing significant changes here in advance' is definitely a good idea. --Nigelj (talk) 10:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Be bold. Make appropriate edits; improvements to an article do not require anyone's prior approval. On the other hand, be smart: make sure edits are well-sourced, word them neutrally, and if you expect others might object (a safe bet in a controversial subject area), post your rationale for the edit to the talk page at the same time, and invite others to adjust your addition of offer alternatives rather than simply reverting your change. It makes it easier to identify and address who is editing constructively if there is conflict. --DGaw (talk) 14:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

If I anticipate an addition is likely going to be controversial or contentious, I always propose the addition on the talk page first. Hair-trigger reversions are common here, and boldness is usually interpreted as being inflammatory. Sad, but true. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a matter of adding one RS-backed sentence. If editors have to worry about that something's going wrong. --Heyitspeter (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow...so the criminals are going to get off on a legal technicality. According to this source[56], the ICO wants the law changed so that complaints made more than six months after a breach of the act can still result in prosecutions. Should this be added to the article? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a very important finding (WP:WEIGHT) in my view. It should have more weight than CRU's response for instance. I am not sure that the current reading gives it this weight as finding it in the current revision is difficult (I searched for breached). It also affects the timeline, and the response section. How do we do that without making this thing more verbose than it already is?Atandb (talk) 14:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's probably important. So little reporting has been done on this that we are having to look into the crystal ball a wee bit and indulge in a little recentism. After a few days, the level of coverage will become clearer and it will be much easier to determine the appropriate level of weight. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Considering BLP, how will "wrongdoing" be handled?

As I understand it, the Freedom of Information Act was "breached". So wrongdoing is no longer "alleged" (per the lede), it has been (in this instance) identified. That having been said, certainly there was no court conviction (statute of limitations) and I'm not sure whether any names were named. How can this be handled neutrally yet decisively without violating an individual's right to freedom from presumed guilt? Nobody has been "convicted" of anything, and quite possibly nobody ever will be. As the story develops, there will be other findings. Some will deal with the CRU as a monolithic institution, some with day-to-day procedures, and some with individual staff members. How will this article address non-judicial findings? Nightmote (talk) 18:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think a case by case basis is appropriate. In this instance, the ICO simply said that they had found the FOIA to have been breached, so we can say that they said that. If they later put together a case demonstrating how they want to change FOIA requests to avoid the situation in the future, we can attribute that as well. Ignignot (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2010 (UTC)