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About me

Essays

Trinkets

Trivia

Visited

Talk

I recognize that this user page belongs to the Wikipedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.

My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns if you don't want to post.

Here about a BLP that's persistently getting vandalized and you want me to semi protect it? Leave a note below, (User:Lar/Liberal Semi is no longer in use) and I or one of my TPWs will get it.
Here to leave me a message? Response time varies depending on where I'm active... Ping me if it's truly urgent, or find another admin.
Here about accountability? see my accountability page.
Note: The apparent listification of the category (it's back but may go away again) does not change my commitment to my recallability in any way

Please read the two blue boxes :).

A Note on how things are done here:

Being a "grumpy old curmudgeon", I have certain principles governing this talk page which I expect you to adhere to if you post here. (This talk page is my "territory", (although I acknowledge it's not really mine, it's the community's) and I assume janitorial responsibility for it.)

Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here.
I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. If I inadvertently change the meaning of anything, please let me know so I can fix it!
While I reserve the right to delete comments I find egregiously poor form, I am normally opposed to doing so and use ~~monthly~~ random archives instead. If you post here, your words will remain here and eventually in the archives, so please do not delete them, use strikeouts. In other words, think carefully about what you say rather than posting hastily or heatedly.
Edit warring here is particularly bad form. One of my WP:TPW's may well issue a short block, so don't do it.
When all else fails, check the edit history.

(cribbed from User:Fyslee's header... Thanks!)

(From User:Lar/Eeyore Policy)

A Note on threading:

Interpersonal communication does not work when messages are left on individual users' talk pages rather than threaded, especially when a third party wishes to read or reply.

Being a "bear of very little brain", I get easily confused when trying to follow conversations that bounce back and forth, so I've decided to try the convention that many others seem to use, aggregation of messages on either your talk page or my talk page. If the conversation is about an article I will try to aggregate on the article's talk page.

If the conversation is on your talk page or an article talk page, I will watch it.
If the conversation is on my talk page or an article talk page and I think that you may not be watching it, I will link to it in a note on your talk page, or in the edit summary of an empty edit. But if you start a thread here, please watch it.

I may mess up, don't worry, I'll find it eventually. Ping me if you really need to.

please note this is a personal preference rather than a matter of site policy

(From User:Lar/Pooh Policy)

Following up on concerns about User:Ash's use of citations

Please see this draft RFC/U. I'm not sure why this couldn't have been dealt with at ANI, but since it wasn't I'm following up with an RFC/U as suggested. I have told Ash of my intention to file this, for what it's worth. Let me know if you have any comments or additions (feel free to just make changes). I'll submit it in the next day or so, depending on the feedback I receive. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The link Dc has provided you where he states he "told Ash of his intention to file" this is incorrect. Ash has not been properly advised of Dc's intent. 207.237.230.164 (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why, how helpful of you to turn up to point this out! What matters most is the notification itself, not who does it, so why don't you be even more helpful and go notify Ash yourself, whoever you are? ++Lar: t/c 01:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

</your sarcasm>. 207.237.230.164 (talk) 05:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Point stands nevertheless. Whoever you are. ++Lar: t/c 15:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't create the RfC and so it was not my responsibility to notify the subject...who, BTW, has been notified properly now. PS- Have you read WP:WAE? "While having a username has a lot of benefits, editing already existing pages without one is perfectly acceptable, and in fact, is very much welcome." 207.237.230.164 (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We welcome editing by IPs. IF they don't have an account. If they do, then they ought to use their account so we have proper context. If you have an issue with how DC set up the RfC why bring it to me? I find your contributions here on my page less than helpful, and not particularly welcome either, although I have an open door policy under which I don't remove comments merely because I find them unhelpful. Your edits show essentially no article space editing, which is what that IP policy is intended to foster. If you want to participate in WikiPolitics (which appears to be the sole area of interest) and you want my respect or acknowledgement, be a mensch, don't use an IP to hide. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lar, I doubt this will come as much of a surprise... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My recent actions and comments regarding WMC

You might have wondered about my motivation for acting in the manner I am, so I am laying my cards on the table. I intend to be considered by the majority of reviewers as someone acting firmly but, within a reasonable definition, fairly in respect of WMC. Once this reputation is firmly established among all but a few editors, all of whom are noted to usually speak and act in accordance to WMC's own inclinations re CC, I can then abuse my flags to remove WMC (a very well informed contributor to the subject of AGW) from the subject area for a minor infraction (or simply make one up) and then suggest that the reaction is typical of that on the previous many instances where I have acted appropriately. It is important that my recent efforts appear both to be fair, and habitually decried as nonconstructive or biased by certain inclined parties for this to work.

WMC has been reacting appropriately, and I must say I am disappointed that you seem to have missed this strategy. Perhaps I should have emailed you before setting out on this strategy. Nevermind - I suppose I can trust you to keep this to yourself. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I did miss that missive. Not to worry, though, No one will know. Tis a cunning plot. ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How will anybody find this out? LHVU has hacked all DNS servers to point to a copy of Wikipedia. Only you can see this text! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is LHVU holidaying in the East? ++Lar: t/c 03:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I told you! Nobody can see this but us! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please semi-prot Hank Johnson?

[1]

A lot of blogs are talking about a really stupid comment he made regarding Guam, and while there is video it is possible this is simply a well-executed April Fool's joke. I've explained in more detail on the talk page there. Cheers, TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What specific edits are vandalistic? Please provide diffs. I'm not going to get involved in a content related matter regarding this article. ++Lar: t/c 20:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh it has already been semi-protected (one of the reasons I asked here was because I knew it was watched so much). The main problem is that a lot of the edits about this (well worth the watch if you haven't seen it) were being sourced to blogs. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Community sanctions

You're correct[2] in that its my first visit to this sanctions page; I've been active with a few others, IIRC all were ArbCom sanctions, except for the Sarah Palin probation. There seems to be a new level of failing to AGF that admins in these areas are doing their best for Wikipedia, and their utmost to examine evidence given and behavior of involved parties and be fair to all concerned. I also contributed to an instance on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement (#Gatoclass) and the editor who filed first demanded I produce difs to support my view; when I replied my view was based on examining the difs and contribs in the case, s/he implied directly that I had not "actually look[ed] into [his/her] contributions" and demanded I "provid[e] differences to support the verdict" - and I saw similar complaints on MastCell's talk page, where demands were made of him that he "produce difs" to support his view. This is backwards-think; its not up to the 'judge', so to speak, to provide the evidence, but to examine and weigh it. When did this start, and have you any thoughts on how to educate and counter this trend? Or am I overly concerned with a couple of new editors who don't understand the process, and seeing a trend where there is none?

Btw, I do appreciate the welcome to the community sanctions, and will continue to try to help there when I can. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 15:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think providing diffs is a good practice, to be encouraged, but I agree with you that it's not up to the admin being asked to act, it's up to the request initiator. ++Lar: t/c 21:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that's not what I was asking about, right? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 11:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you were asking if this practice, which we both agree is bad, is an aberration or a new trend, and if the latter, how to counteract it. I'm not sure when it started exactly but I don't think it's been around all that long. I hope it's an aberration, but sometimes aberrations become accepted practice if not nipped. I'm not quite sure how to counteract it other than by saying "no, that's not how things are done". ++Lar: t/c 11:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, yes. I had hoped you'd have a brighter idea than mine, but at least we agree on the one approach. :-/ KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 13:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible?

To indefinitely semi-protect naked short selling? It is clear as day that the IP's, likely from free hotspots he found somewhere, are the topic banned user known as "Mantamoreland." TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have you asked at WP:RFPP ? You also might consider filing an WP:SPI to have a CU look into the matter. ++Lar: t/c 20:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't heard of RFPP before, but I don't think the issue is one of sockpuppets so much (it may be I haven't looked too much into the history), but rather he is using IPs for a few edits that are pointless (and probably harmful) to ban. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll want to take this to the ArbCom enforcement board maybe? I'm reducing my current involvement to a few limited areas. ++Lar: t/c 21:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'll look into that, thanks. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sticky prods

Hi Lar'! You participated earlier in the sticky prod workshop. The sticky prods are now in use, but there are still a few points of contention.
There are now a few proposals on the table to conclude the process. I encourage your input, whatever it might be. Thanks. --Maurreen (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notice, but with SlimVirgin, Crum375 AND Jayjg involved... I think I'll pass for now. I've got enough stress in my life as it is. ++Lar: t/c 11:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assumes facts not in evidence

This is a statement that you shouldn't be using - especially not with comments like the following diffs, note that it is pure coincidence that this is mostly from a WMC case - i took comments from your contribution list one by one:

[3](no evidence of poisoning environment)
[4](no evidence of "hindering that process more than helping it")
[5](no evidence of any group thinking anything)
[6](no evindence given for baiting at all, or even statements about what Mark was (attempted?) to be baited into)

While people can hold (and do) many different opinions about the validity or the veracity of the above comments [which i'm not in any way going to discuss, or be interested in discussing] - they all fall into the "assumes facts not in evidence" category. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suffice it to say for now I disagree. More later. ++Lar: t/c 17:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought I'm not sure it's a good use of my time to rebut someone that apparently doesn't admit they are wrong. Why bother? The science club will deny there is a problem, regardless of what you do or say, apparently. And that's a big part of the problem, how they close ranks and defend at all costs. ++Lar: t/c 00:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Throwing accusations of bad faith on top. Is not really helping is it? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal Semi

Hello Lar, I was wondering if you might be interested in redeploying your Liberal Semi criteria as an addition to the Protection Policy? The process you used may be inactive, but I think the idea of it is logically sound. Since it seems we're never getting flaggedrevs, it might be a worthwhile stopgap measure. The Wordsmith^Communicate 13:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you elaborate? I'd love to see the criteria we were using at LS added to the protection policy but I wasn't sure that was workable... it was enough that they were within discretion. I'm game though. ++Lar: t/c 18:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't have thought it was workable either, and before now it probably wasn't. In fact, not too long ago, I hated the liberal semi idea. However, with mounting frustration over us not having FP/PR, as well as the remnants of the BLP movement's momentum, I think we would probably have a reasonable shot. I'll look into drafting a proposal to make it happen. The Wordsmith^Communicate 18:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rollback?

Hi mate, i have been doing some recent change patrol and came across a tool called huggle whic hmakes life easier. But it says i need something called rollback? What is that and am i allowed to have it? mark nutley (talk) 14:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:Rollback for more information. Typically rollback is granted to non admin users who have a good history of sound edits and of not edit warring, because it is a tool that can be misused to make edit warring easier. There is a page to apply, or you can ask an admin directly, as you apparently are doing here. (see Wikipedia:Rollback#How_to_apply for more specifics) Based on your prior history I'm not sure I'd grant rollback to you at this time, I'm afraid. ++Lar: t/c 18:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worrys mate, i did find that request page and did request :-) i suspect they will also say no lol, a well i`ll have to continue to do it the old fashioned way, thanks mark nutley (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLIX (March 2010)

The March 2010 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 22:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Macai; discussion before CC topic bans?

You are absolutely correct at the WP:GS/CC/RE page that I was remiss in not ensuring that my explanation was posted. It might be buried in the sections above, but I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Should always topic bans be discussed here? regarding whether we should encourage or require that lengthy sanctions be discussed at that page. Personally I could go either way so long as we are clear about it, but I would really like to hear what others have to say. Regards, - 2/0 (cont.) 04:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should opine again. I feel rather the only enforcement admin there, beleaguered by a bunch of non admins and admins who don't enforce, at least not at that page. ++Lar: t/c 23:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I read through that discussion this afternoon it seemed to have turned into precisely my least favorite type of conversation, full of posturing, hard lines, and people talking past each other (not to mention the classic signal/noise problem). I will go see if I can refocus a bit on the issue of long term sanctions being placed before the moot before or after being enacted, but it is late here and my brain might abandon me before I can write something cogent. I think I can definitely see the logic at least to calling in a sanity check in cases where time is not of the essence, or even encouraging discussion if that will make the probation run more smoothly. On an unrelated note, I think that that section title might be evidence that I need to hang around with more native English speakers. - 2/0 (cont.) 04:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty apt summary. Which is why I think hearing from more admins that actually work there might be good. As for the subject line, I was tempted to change the word order but I figured it would break a fair number of links. Maybe I should anyway. For the record, I was not aware you were not a native English speaker, your phrasing and word choice surely don't give such away. ++Lar: t/c 05:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to change it - {{anchor}} will even preserve section links (though I suspect setting the HTML id= directly might be kinder on the servers). I made a stab at Wikipedia talk:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Refocusing - when time is not of the essence; maybe we can close down that thread soon.

And thank you, but I actually am a native English speaker :). I work in physics, though, and spend a fair bit of time in the minority in that regard. This leads me to pick up somewhat idiosyncratic speech patterns sometimes, such as a tendency to arrange word order by importance instead of grammar or asking "what means foo". - 2/0 (cont.) 16:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I am any judge of character, you are far too smart to make a POINT of this first point ... How can we de-escalate this? I really do not see the point to most of the verbiage over at that talk page over the last few days, and it is starting to generate bad blood. I am reticent, though, to attempt to close down discussion among long term reasonable editors - do you have any advice? Would an appeal to reason actually do any good in a thread like that, or should I just let it burn itself out and take to heart smidgens of solid advice concealed in the drama? - 2/0 (cont.) 23:15, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making a point. I think talking first works better. But I am very willing to try not talking first and seeing how well it works. That's not making a point, that's experimenting. Because maybe I'm wrong! Who knows. Those accusing me of WP:POINT seem to be... well... not very collegial. You'd think they had already prejudged that it wasn't going to work. ++Lar: t/c 23:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My point precisely :). But seriously - if that discussion were on an article talk page I would already have requested people to take their drama-llama elsewhere. I am not posting here in some back-handed attempt to make it out that you are the problem or the instigator or anything like that. It simply pains me to see that level of unlevelheadedness on a discussion page devoted to calming troubled waters (yes, this is part of why I mostly avoid ArbCom); you are quite generally thoughtful and clueful, and I genuinely do not know what I can do to nudge that page back towards collegial collaboration mode. Ah well, I am out for the night now anyway - good luck. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well another approach might be to not even announce, just start blocking people that are bringing more heat than light to the enforcement page and see what happens. It's tempting. But no. Have fun. ++Lar: t/c 23:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether this is getting through to you

There is absolutely no way in which an action by an administrator can be limited by the prior existence of the probation. If you want a talking shop, that's fine, but the talking shop cannot pre-empt the power of an administrator to take action on the basis of the probation. Subsequent discussion of the action is appropriate, but obviously you wouldn't want to stop administrators taking what they regard as appropriate action, as 2over0 believes he did.

I thought at first that you were being ambivalent about this, then I thought you had definitively affirmed the probation, and then I found that you had apparently said it was subject to evolution on the page (which would be okay, though it would have been nice to know in advance that what we were agreeing to was in fact, the reverse of what we thought we were agreeing to--to wit, a reduction in administrative discretion under the guise of an express enhancement of administrative discretion).

I think you're bobbing around and looking for tactical advantage on this one. I have the tactical advantage that I'm not. This won't work. It's too ridiculously bureaucratic. --TS 22:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree and I'm not sure where to even start but here goes. The status quo at a page is what is done at that page. You can't deny that the way the page operates is that we mostly talk first. The log of enforcement actions proves it. Maybe you think it's wrong. Maybe it is against how other pages do it. But it's how it's done on that page. And it works well enough that I'm not going to push for change in the status quo. You can if you want. You'll need to seek consensus for it though. (subject of course that local consensus doesn't override global once you get the global consensus). Maybe I'm dense. Maybe you and KC are, dunno. Maybe we're actually agreeing and don't know it. ++Lar: t/c 23:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

220 questions, 221 questions, whatever it takes

You're talking at cross purposes here. Let me try a new approach - bear with me, I think this is worth trying, if you'll be patient and go with me for a bit:KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 16:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, as long as you answer my questions too. Minus snark. I don't like being condescended to. ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Try this first. I'm thinking we need to start with Shared Ground first. Tiny increments. If it doesn't work, then I'll try your attempt. Fair enough? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 20:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. One question for one question, or I don't want to play your game. I've answered one, it's your turn. ++Lar: t/c 21:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My god, what are you, five? No, I was going to try to start with common ground and lead up to the point where views diverged, as it seems obvious to me you simply do not understand what TS and I are saying, since your arguments simply do not apply. But this bullshit of "I won't take your help unless you jump through my hoops" is just too juvenile and silly to even contemplate. I tried; you wanted to play games. I'm done. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So I won't play on your terms? Sorry, but that is how it is. This is not a matter of my needing your "help" with anything, it's a matter of you being confused and intransigent, and apparently having too much invested in being right. Whatever. It seems to be a defining characteristic of your interaction with me, that you are always trying to lecture me about something, from a position of perceived moral superiority, rather than treating me as an equal. Very immature of you. You don't get to come in and dictate terms of how to discuss things and your continuing condescension is noted. Go try to talk down to someone else, it won't wash with me. Come back when you're ready to collegially and civilly discuss matters rather than lecture. Or don't come back at all. Because your unwillingness to answer reasonable questions proves that you're not interested in discussion. ++Lar: t/c 18:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong about my intent, my feelings, and my opinions. You are also quite wrong about my confusion; I am not confused. You are in error about my "playing" - I was in all sincerity attempting to help resolve what seems to be a complete failure to communicate. I was not in any way, ever, "talking down" to you nor "playing games". You want to stay utterly wrong and clueless about what TS and I were talking ab out; your choice. I tried. Let me know if you prefer not to remain ignorant by choice and will try to explain again. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I calls them as I see them. I see someone quite stubborn and someone not really interested in discussion, just lecturing. Maybe that's not you, but it's the perception I get. I look back at the witch hunt thing a few months back... same thing. You hector but you don't listen. Maybe that's not you, but it's the perception I get. ++Lar: t/c 02:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are misinterpreting my passionate desire to be clear, which leads to verbosity and sometimes very detailed explanations, as being lecturing or condescending.

And now I *am* confused: what are you talking about, "witch hunts"? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 06:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: User_talk:Lar/Archive_59#History_and_conflation You were wrong then, and no amount of explanation would get you (or Durova) to stop hectoring me. So why bother? ++Lar: t/c 14:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You must be joking. I cannot believe you are actually linking to the one place where Durova and I agreed in the last three years; namely, where your extreme ignorance and belligerent and bellicose arguing against every historian ever, that somehow you didn't say what you said. That's something I'd think you'd be embarrassed to link to, Lar, not use as some kind of "proof" of anything. Although now that you've reminded me of it, I now do recall that you get so bullheaded that no one can talk to you, and claearly this is one of those times. I am now done with this. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 20:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You were wrong then, and no amount of explanation would get you (or Durova) to stop hectoring me. Sorry if you're too bullheaded to see it. As for being "too embarrassed" to link to it. I'm not. But you should be. Not your finest hour. ++Lar: t/c 23:06, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

KC's questions

Lar, do you agree that Admins can block? (KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 16:07, 9 April 2010 (UTC) )[reply]
- Yes. ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you agree that Admins can block without discussion (although they should probably discuss if a block is likely to be controversial)?

Lar's questions

KC, do you agree that the page, as it is now, and as it has been for at least the last three months, is "mostly" talk first and block later? ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment from Bozmo: as for me I agree but think this is unquestionable a bad thing. Another comment from BozMo: you have said (fairly reasonably) that you will block WMC if he say septic again. So you do accept a certain level of appropriateness in admins making blocks relative to climate change without talking it to death. So what is TS complaining about I missed the first diff? --BozMo talk 07:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please repeat that at the talk page because it's an important perspective. As for the septic thing, I'm trying it on for size, to see how it would be not to do things the way we have been. So far it's going rather poorly, I think. But perhaps my mistake was in even announcing intentions. ++Lar: t/c 18:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is WMC afraid of?

See, for example this removal. Charming. ++Lar: t/c 00:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why should he be "afraid" - as opposed to simply not wanting your input? Methinks you are getting a bit too personal on this issue. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those who sweep away some, but not all, discussion on a topic usually are afraid of something. It's much more convenient when everyone's singing from the same songsheet. Methinks you are getting a bit too personal on this issue. Have been for a while, actually. ++Lar: t/c 02:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The keyword in your sentence is "usually", the contradiction is your inference is certainty. Or in more plain words: Jumping to conclusions. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 04:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The small fraction remaining is usually (there's that word again) explained by bad manners. As for the fraction of the fraction, dunno. Obstinacy? ++Lar: t/c 14:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you've reflected poorly on yourself.[7] Or at least that's what I heard he said she said. lol. Mackan79 (talk) 05:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty typical of his behavior (I've experienced the same thing and watched it occur to others). Luckily for us all wikipedia welcomes ~~everyone~~ people to work in this lovely collaborative environment. FYI Lar I'm thinking of filing a request for enforcement against you but I'm not sure if it would violate my probation sanctions. TheGoodLocust (talk) 09:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? Typical of the behavior of which person? As for opening an enforcement request, if you feel you should, you should. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Typical of WMC's behavior. I was sort of joking about filing a RfE against you though (I expect one will be filed against you soon though by others). In reality I've been playing with the thought of challenging 2over0's topic ban since he didn't go through the proper channels and his evidence was rather weak and/or misrepresented (e.g. the first sentence of this response would've been used as evidence for a topic ban if I'd made it at the time), but I'm not sure if I should waste my time with the effort (I'm not getting paid for this crap!). TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We were having a quiet chat on my talk page. You weren't welcome to butt in. Meanwhile, there are unanswered questions for you on the sanctions talk page: you still haven't backed up your undue weight assertions William M. Connolley (talk) 13:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1) Noted. On the other hand all are welcome here and I have nothing to hide. I never remove comments individually, I have better manners than that. You, on the other hand?... actions speak louder than words. But your words speak pretty loudly.

2)Sure I have. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but that's OK. Apparently nothing is ever to your satisfaction if it goes against what you yourself think, but if it agrees, almost anything is. That may be a false impression but that's the impression I get in looking over your interactions. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs are needed not vagueness William M. Connolley (talk) 14:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In your view. I feel I've supplied enough information in this particular case, although I do agree that in many cases, diffs are what is needed. ++Lar: t/c 15:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I too share your high ideals. I have never removed a comment on my own talkpage. Somtimes others have done so and I have not undone their revisions. However, I am getting increasingly alarmed by your highly personal commentary. I respect you but every time I see your edits in this area I get more worried that you are way too involved on a personal level. This is so very unhealthy that I am getting more and more inclined to take this further. I saw your crazy oppose on a recent RfA and I defended you from the backlash by immediately voting for you on the meta. However almost every comment I have seen from you in the climate change area of wikipedia has led me to reconsider my initial assessment of you as an editor. In my opinion your neutrality is completely blown. I do not wish to waste my time proving this and request you withdraw from the area. I am fairly sure you will ignore this request but that does not affect the fact that your credibility in the climate change area of wikipedia in my opinion is zero. Polargeo (talk) 09:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mentorship?

Do you want to adopt mbz1? That might be one way of moving forwards, but be prepared to have people running to you fairly often. Unomi (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mbz1 is already sort of a mentoree as Mbz1 comes to me from time to time with questions and concerns and requests for advice. So yes, I could. If that's a way forward. My track record with mentors is poor though. ++Lar: t/c 04:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Lar. The 48 hours block for for that edit [8] that was made at AE appeal request simply to clarify some Wikipedia policy. There was not a single word said about conflict no matter how broadly constructed my ban was. I discussed Wikipedia policy only. If 48 hours block for that edit was justified, then I am really not sure what my ban is about, but I know I am getting very desperate, and thank you for your help. I assure you, if you are my mentor, and my ban is lifted you will not hear any complain about me.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was just a thought, personally I think it is best if mbz1 simply stays away from I/P for awhile, I don't think anyone is worse off from it. The 48h block was for jumping unsolicited into an ARBPIA AE request right after being banned from I/P broadly construed, I think the block was justified and entirely avoidable if she had simply modified her watchlist or exercised some self-restraint. Sandstein has been getting a lot of flack from both sides so I think it is a good idea if more admins get involved in policing, as it were. Unomi (talk) 04:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That does seem to be how it is likely to come out, yes. My offer stands if things turn out differently. Thanks for suggesting it, regardless of what transpires. ++Lar: t/c 02:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to log...

....this at Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Log#Log_of_sanctions. And not that i'm contesting it (in fact i am for a general 1RR policy), but what exactly made you pick that particular article? It doesn't seem to have been in any serious problems for a bit - since most reverts have been vandal/anon reverts. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I did log it, although maybe not quite right? (perhaps after you posted this?) It's hard to decide what order to do things in, do you log first or the sanction first? As to why that one, I thought that was the article that was in question, it seemed to be the one that sparked the discussion, and the one that I thought other admins were saying needed 1RR. I may have erred, though, I will review. 18:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This seems to have been a mistake by you - Peterlewis hasn't edited GWC ? Do you think you meant Global warming conspiracy theory? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been reading that page over and over and going blue in the face from doing it, it's gotten so stale. Take a look at Ratel's first numbered point of the request. I've looked at that point's diff a few times now, and... it's not the article he names in the point. I 1RRed the article he named, not the article he gave diffs to. Clearly an error. Thanks for spotting it. ++Lar: t/c 18:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem - i just noticed the same discrepancy :) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorted now, I think. Thanks again. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Wikipedia:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement#1RR_restriction_on_Global_warming_controversy. I think the only useful order is log, then tag. This avoids unresolved references. The sanction goes into force only after both actions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be right Stephan, log first, then tag. Also, we should stash the edit notice verbage somewhere I think? Here's a link (to the one you added, thanks for that!) so I can find an example later [9] ++Lar: t/c 20:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stuck onto the probation page, also with a link to WP:Editnotice. See [10]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that! Should help in future. ++Lar: t/c 11:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		Dear Lar, Thank you very much for your time and kind understanding of my situation. I'll never forget you have agreed to be my mentor. I could not have wished for a better one! --Mbz1 (talk) 02:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 11:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification Request

Lar, I appreciate your insight on the CC request involving me, but I would like a little clarification here. Two years ago, I reverted an edit by a user, calling it bad faith in the revert description. The user went to my talk page, complaining about my choice of terms. I explained my reasoning (again on my own page) but used the word "vandalism" in connection with the incident. Within 15 minutes, and no other action on my part, I had received a 24-hour block from any and all edits, courtesy of admin BozMo. I didn't question his decision then, nor do I now. I went away, and I think came back a better editor for the emotional detachment it forced upon me.

However, I do question what appears to be a very real flaw in the level of the playing field here. What this user did today to me was so far beyond what I did that words can't express it. A groundless charge that wasted the majority of my day, accusations of bad faith, intentional disruption, insults, snide remarks, which continued even after multiple requests to adhere to AGF and civility. Worse, he vented not only upon me, but upon other editors for doing no more than defending my actions, going so far to accuse one of sock puppetry, and make blanket accusations against admins. He further said he was "unable to detach his anger" from his editing, and that he felt "we both should be banned", which certainly appears a tacit admission he felt his actions deserved it.

Yet no action whatsoever is being taken, not even a request for him to apologize to me (which I would certainly be satisfied with). Now, I'd like to think that perhaps Wikipedia is just a warmer and cuddlier place today than it was then. But realistically, I realize had I myself engaged in even half this behavior against an established editor on the other side of the fence, I'd now be looking at a lengthy topic ban, if not worse. So I'm going to repeat my earlier request. I feel that, at the very least this user should either formally apologize, or at least be prohibited from making any similar charges against me for a period of time.

Thank you again for your attention to this. FellGleaming (talk) 04:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FG: I see your point. But I'm not sure support would be there for more than what I've proposed. The playing field isn't level. It isn't likely to get level all at once, either. It isn't fair. But Wikipedia isn't guaranteed to be fair. ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it was a waste of time but I don't buy into the CC sanctions and so will not comment there. This is after dealing with sanctions in the Balkans area of wikipedia, which are far more heated than this CC nonsense which should never have been initiated. What you should have done is grovelled to Hipocrite that you had made a mistake and what Hipocrite should have done was complain on talkpages and not bring this to CC sanctions. However, you do have a tendency as a newish user to edit first and explain later but this doesn't need to be an issue. Polargeo (talk) 10:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was a bit of an ironic joke about grovelling but I hope you get my meaning. Best to appease other editors when you make a mistake. This doesn't absolve Hipocrite from making an over-zealous sanctions report. Polargeo (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Polargeo: I'm afraid I am still not sure exactly what point you are making. Would you be so kind as to try again? ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No I think I will not be so kind as it appears that you do not yourself extend this courtesy to other editors :) Polargeo (talk) 11:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find that bringing in new editors helps resolve unreasonable people issues (and shows me when I am the unreasonable one!). Then it isn't just a case of you versus them, so you can also be more detached and enjoy the Wikipedia experience more. Stephen B Streater (talk) 11:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen: I agree that more eyes often help. The CC enforcement area could use more eyes, for sure. ++Lar: t/c 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The CC enforcement area could use a lot less bias from Lar. New editors who don't know wikipedia rules should not be taken to CC enforcement as in this case but they also should not be appeased to the extent that Lar appeases them when established editors report them for what is often the tip of the iceberg. I personally was struggling with this particular user's edits on a completely unrelated article and could easily have taken the case to enforcement myself. Polargeo (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 239: / Line 239: @@
 * I find that bringing in new editors helps resolve unreasonable people issues (and shows me when I am the unreasonable one!). Then it isn't just a case of you versus them, so you can also be more detached and enjoy the Wikipedia experience more. [[User:Stephen B Streater|Stephen B Streater]] ([[User talk:Stephen B Streater|talk]]) 11:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 ::Stephen: I agree that more eyes often help. The CC enforcement area could use more eyes, for sure. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 11:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
+:::The CC enforcement area could use a lot less bias from Lar. New editors who don't know wikipedia rules should not be taken to CC enforcement as in this case but they also should not be appeased to the extent that Lar appeases them when established editors report them for what is often the tip of the iceberg. I personally was struggling with this particular user's edits on a completely unrelated article and could easily have taken the case to enforcement myself. [[User:Polargeo|Polargeo]] ([[User talk:Polargeo|talk]]) 12:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)