Talk:Gender-critical feminism

Potential sources

This is an MA thesis so it's probably not appropriate as a source in itself, but it contains a thorough literature review that may be of interest to editors working on this article: https://refubium.fu-berlin.de/bitstream/handle/fub188/32780/MASTERS%20THESIS_Simon%2c%20Braedyn%20Ezra.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 13:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Anti-gender movement

Perhaps the article should explain early on (incl in the lead) how gender-critical feminism is related to the broader anti-gender movement? I'm thinking specifically of how TERFs and the conservative anti-gender movement have converged, how they increasingly cooperate, how TERFs/gender-criticals have embraced the worldview and terminology originally associated with the conservative anti-gender movement, as many sources have discussed. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 13:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I added something in the lead about the anti-gender movement. NHCLS (talk) 15:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Prospective additions

I haven't checked whether enough Julie Bindel material has been added to the UK section - could someone do that?

Also, while I'm not a Telegraph fan, this piece might provide useful, non-Stock-dominated, "free speech" coverage from the UK. Newimpartial (talk) 14:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Titles/names

For reference: In Google Scholar there are

• 227 results for "trans-exclusionary radical feminism", 382 for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist" and 594 for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists". In total 1203
• 99 for "gender-critical feminism", 105 for "gender-critical feminist" and 176 for "gender-critical feminists". In total 380
• 88 for "trans-exclusionary feminism", 56 for "trans-exclusionary feminist" and 101 for "trans-exclusionary feminists". In total 245
• 59 for "transphobic feminism", 41 for "transphobic feminist" and 41 for "transphobic feminists". In total 141
• There are also 1,150 results for "terf" AND feminism

--Amanda A. Brant (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I think I'd support moving the page title to 'trans-exclusionary radical feminism' in that case. NHCLS (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

From a personal point of view, I don't have very strong objections to the term "gender-critical feminism", but the numbers here make a pretty strong case for reversing the order in the first sentence and using trans-exclusionary radical feminism as the title. It is possible that "gender-critical feminism" may be a mainly British term, whereas Americans and others prefer TERF/"trans-exclusionary radical feminism". --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I still think editors should refrain from launching a COMMONNAME battle that will inflame the ants, require the apparent reversal of previous RfC closes (including one at ANI), and not coincidentally pick what I believe to be the declining over the rising label. Could we please not do that, just because one term would be technically more common? Newimpartial (talk) 16:45, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with gender-critical feminism for now. I think it's useful to be aware of the fact that most sources use a different term, though (it's more than three times as common, not counting the sources only mentioning the acronym), and that we may have to revisit this question at some point. Perhaps the article should also include something about the prevalence of the different terms. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 16:54, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Let's also take into account the fact that, in this rapidly-shifting field, scholarly sources from the last two years may be considerably more "accurate", or at least well-grounded in their assumptions, than ones from 5 or 10 years ago. This is especially true of terminology IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 16:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Of the 227 results for "trans-exclusionary radical feminism", 93 are from either 2020 or 2021, and 42 are from 2021

Of the 99 results for "gender-critical feminism", 56 are from either 2020 or 2021, and 25 are from 2021.

Of the 1,150 results for "terf" AND feminism, 520 are from either 2020 or 2021, and 255 are from 2021.

I didn't bother analysing all the terms mentioned above, because I think we get the picture: "Trans-exclusionary radical feminism" and the acronym TERF remain more widely used in the most recent scholarship, although gender-critical is emerging as an alternative term. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

"Sometimes referred to as a fringe movement"

For statements like this, in the lead as well as body, we are going to need to provide immediate inline citations. There is no point painting huge citation-needed targets, even on a draft article.

(This kind of thing, by the way, is the rationale for the bare links I have occasionally inserted: before suggesting any names, I am making sure that reliable sources actually describe the person or org as feminist, and gender-critical or trans-exclusionary. So the LGB Alliance may not fit here, because I'm unaware of any reliable sources actually labelling them "feminist".) Newimpartial (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it would be odd to have an article on TERF/gender criticals that didn't mention LGB Alliance, one of the main TERF groups. TERF/gender-critical feminism is a specific phenomenon, so whether they present themselves as focused on feminism (in general) isn't the key issue. Finn Mackay refers to LGB Alliance as a GC (the common abbreviation of gender-critical feminist) group[1]; Pedro Monque mentions LGB Alliance as a TERF group[2], for example. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 17:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The article includes a specific quote (by Butler) referring to TERF as a fringe movement. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 17:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

My support for for this article's existence and development is contingent on its being limited to feminists. This represents an advantage of the current title, because "gender-critical feminists" is, in its signification, restricted to (those presenting themselves as) feminists, and the scholarly literature on them does the same AFAIK. This differs from the term "TERF", which is widely applied to figures like Graham Linehan and J.K. Rowling who are not described by reliable sources as (or known as) feminists. Amanda, if you insist that everyone who has been labeled "TERF" or "gender critical" therefore belongs in this article, setting aside the issue of feminism as not the key issue, then I don't think this article will be fit for purpose in an encyclopedia and will oppose its move to article space. I am not interested in a COATRACK or a catch-all, here.

As far as the Butler citation goes, I am suggesting that it needs to be placed in the lead, and if they are the only one that has used that phrase, it should be attributed to them. Newimpartial (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Look, I'm not "insisting" on anything at all. This is a draft, not an article yet, where there should be room for editors to present their ideas for the development of the article, and what it should cover. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)