User talk:Justanother

I like to keep both sides of my discussions together, so if you leave me a message here, I will reply here.
If I left a question on your talk page, please reply there; I'm watching your page so I will get back to you as soon as possible.
And thanks for writing!

Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Fair use • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Build consensus • Resolving disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Achive1 Achive2 Achive3 Achive4

Watchlist

/junk

In case you missed it...

You might be interested to know that Terryeo has now been blocked entirely from Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Terryeo_indefinitely_blocked. BTfromLA 18:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think you did influence him toward moderating his behavior but, even then, he was beyond the pale--the final episode had him posting "religiousfreedomwatch" slurs on particular Wikipedia editors and pretending that he was just innocently curious about whether the claims were true: as he'd done that sort of thing before, an administrator finally decided to pull the plug. By the way, that religiousfreedomwatch page, which appears to be produced with the full blessing of the CoS, reflects very poorly on the character of Scientology in my view--it strikes me as downright sleazy and creepy. I'd be interested in your perspective on that "dead agenting" side of Scientology, should you care to share it. BTfromLA 16:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I have responded in turn on my talk page. BTfromLA 00:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And again. BTfromLA 18:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Another follow-up, trying to clarify the dead-agent question, awaits. BTfromLA 15:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I've responded to your recent question (though I'm not sure I fully understood what you were asking for) on my talk page. BTfromLA 07:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your recent comments on my talk page and would like to continue the discussion, but work demands won't allow me time for a thoughtful reply at this point. Please bear with me, I will pick up the thread within a few days. BTfromLA 17:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a note to say that I haven't forgotten about our conversation--I remain bogged down in work for a few days yet, though, so I ask for your further patience. I see that there seems to have been a bit of strange and faintly scandalous behavior from Wikipediatrix while I was away--I sure didn't see that coming. What's next? BTfromLA 22:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to VandalProof!

Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, Justanother! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Prodego ^talk 15:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ref desk reminders

In regard to your recent comments on the reference desk, I just want to reiterate that for the moment I'm proposing reminders, as you say, and not removals. In the long term, users who continually don't listen to reminders will have to be dealt with somehow, of course, but as I've said I'm more inclined toward the dispute resolution process.

Your help with reminders, in cases you think they're appropriate, would be greatly appreciated! -- SCZenz 03:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course. That's one of the reasons I'm calling for many users to work together on this. -- SCZenz 04:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment requested on User:light current's one week block

I, and User:Gandalf61, and others, feel that the action of User:Friday in blocking User:light current for a week was unwarranted and excessive: [1]. We would appreciate your comments in this matter. Thanks. StuRat 10:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice Work

Great job on the Lisa McPherson article. It is reasonably neutral and readable now. Well Done. ---Slightlyright 15:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

A word to the wise

Just to say not to get too angry with Friday (unless of course youre and admin too)--Light current 01:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Paid in BS?

Hi, I thought I'd reply to your first comment on the "Paid in BS?" section here because the discussion on the page is too complicated to fork...

Listen, we do what we do for the reasons we do it. It is really not up to anyone to judge our reasons, only our output and contributions. I like the BS and consider it part of the recompense for my efforts here; the other parts being satisfaction of "getting it right", the enjoyment of helping another and my "knowledge buff" tendency. No particular order there. So I, for one, get partially paid in BS. You get paid in what you get paid. The BS is normal banter that happens when people get together and have fun doing useful work. It should not be suppressed. If you don't like then don't read it. Or do you think that you should dictate the working conditions here? Is that what this is about? --Justanother 23:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Um... I think Wikipedia policy dictates the working conditions here, yes. I don't know of any other page where Wikipedians are required to accept users' unhelpful contributions along with helpful ones, or where there is so much active objection to removal or even criticism of unhelpful content. The reference desk is very public; it should look like it's a place whose primary purpose is the asking of questions and giving of answers. And in fact, usually it does—but if asking it to look like that is "dicatating the working conditions," then yes, that's what I want to do. -- SCZenz 01:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Just that you seem to have objected to the fact that some might enjoy the lighthearted banter. Maybe I misinterpreted your attitude. If so, sorry. I don't think wikipedia policy says anything about that. Other than that a sense of lighthearted irreverance pervades the entire project and I can point you at many many policies and advices that are written in a lighthearted irreverent vein ex. WP:BOLLOCKS, WP:SNOW, many more. Regarding the real issues I think that we have already decided that we agree that abuse of the RD is inappropriate so a lot of this is now starting to seem like redundant. Not you particularly, just this whole intermittable dialogue. All of us, me included but I think I am done now anyway, I've said what I have to say. Last word, if you are trying to make the RD all serious looking, if you are trying to make the RD look like article-space rather than community-space then I think you are fighting a losing battle. I think it is community-space. The best it will be is effective. I think we agree that actions which seriously reduce its effectiveness are inappropriate. --Justanother 01:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be community space, but it is not just community space. It's also part of the face we show to the world, in a way that policy pages like WP:SNOW are not. Lighthearted banter is fine if it doesn't interfere with the question... unless it's potentially offensive, at which point it puts off users and is bad. But when I cite banter being offensive as a reason for it being bad, I get accused of censorship and having ulterior motives. So I would genuinely like your input: is the best way to deal with offensive banter to a) reduce all banter, b) disallow banter that can reasonably be expected to offend some uses and doesn't really contribute, or c) something I haven't thought of yet? -- SCZenz 02:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you said it yourself "Lighthearted banter is fine if it doesn't interfere with the question". The question is deciding when it interferes with the question. I think a very light touch is called for. I think that if someone makes a non-offensive joke that seems on the "flow of consciousness" then leave it alone, maybe leave two in a row alone. If a thread of jokes or indeed any disruptive off-topic thread starts then just move the thread to the talk page and note the removal in the answer stream. But it needs to be obviously off-topic or obviously jokes that are not addressing the question (i.e. non-offensive joke embedded in valid attempt to contribute is always OK) and it need to be a contiguous thread before I would consider that it is interfering with the question. Hope that helps. --Justanother 02:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

StuRat's comment

I believe a new sub page is about to be born on the Purpose of the RDs. Perhaps you both would like to join in the discussion?--Light current 01:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Rules for deletion

Would you care to comment on my proposed Ref Desk Rules for Deletion: [2] ? I would like to build a consensus on which rules should be followed. StuRat 07:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Rules for Ref Desk opinions ?

Would you care to comment on rules for Ref Desk opinions: Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Next_item_for_consensus_discussion:_Opinion ? StuRat 17:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Opinions on Ref Desk template removal ?

Sorry to bother you again, but would you care to comment on: Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Opinions_on_template_removal ? StuRat 21:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Outlawing responses

Any notion of "outlawing" a certain kind of response misses the point- we have no ability to enforce such a rule. We're all volunteers, and some people do sometimes answer with things like "try google". If you think this is bad, feel free to explain what a better answer would be, but any desire to "outlaw" a certain answer is completely misguided. Friday (talk) 21:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Hope you are not thinking I am getting personal with you? Because I am not. We are having a lively discussion on policy related to the Ref Desk. --Justanother 21:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Not at all- and don't worry about offending me in any way- I'm usually fairly thick skinned. Friday (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Good deal cause I am way too fat to tiptoe. --Justanother 21:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, general comment not very relevant to WT:RD. Use of language like "let's outlaw this!" demonstrates a lack of understanding of Wikipedia. I'm really not trying to insult anyone, but I can't get past the thought that almost all the discussion at WT:RD is only happening because people are trying to make policy without a proper understanding of how we do things here. Friday (talk) 21:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Many things are "outlawed" at wikipedia. Disruptive sockpuppetry. Original research (in articles). Personal attacks. On this issue, I think that you need to readjust your thinking, not me. It is totally OK for the community to decide that some questions and some answers have no place here, i.e. they are outlawed. We just don't use that term. --Justanother 21:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This isn't because of rules- it's because our goal is the encyclopedia. By simple common sense, behavior that hurts the encyclopedia is severely frowned upon. This point is subtle but vitally important to understanding what we do here. See WP:5P where it says "Wikipedia does not have firm rules." Friday (talk) 21:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, and saying "Go Google" hurts the RD, IMO. Should be outlawed. Excuse me, should be discouraged. BTW, discussing this on two fronts is giving me headache. --Justanother 21:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Accidental Deletion

Sorry Justanother, the edit look alot like vandalisim, and I appologize for my actions, I still must develop the ability to discern ligitimate edits from vandalisim. Dfrg.msc ^{1 . 2 . Editor Review} 03:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Sick Puppy

Hi, and thanks for your "PROD" message.

So you arrived at Sick Puppy because there is a link to aphrodisiac from it. Looking over your contributions, I see that you have never edited a single literature page, your edits mainly concerning matters of Scientology and your own user page.

I suggest you carefully read Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/GeneralForum and the most important pages related to the novels project. There are hundreds if not thousands of similar pages out there which concern a single work of literature: Are you planning to tag them all and subsequently have them all deleted?

We're moving in ridiculous circles here. Anyone can classify any piece of any information as "indiscriminate", especially if they are on unfamiliar ground. I suppose we're trying to build rather than destroy an encyclopaedia here. And I suppose we're working together, not against each other. "Only" a plot summary may mean the article is not finished yet, but is that a reason for deletion? You can't have a stub first begging people to expand it and then, once it has been expanded, want to delete it. I remember that in the old days anyone complaining that an article lacked something was given the advice: Well, go change it!

Please tell me precisely what you want me to add to the plot summary, and I'll try my best. I am usually very reluctant to remove a tag, but in this case I think I'll have to make an exception (and anyway, I'm practically invited to do so in the wording of the tag itself). And the deadlines are getting shorter all the time: now it's only five days.

I'd appreciate a thorough answer from you because to me this process really deviates from the norm. All the best, <KF> 22:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, editor sees article that violates WP:NOT, editor tags for delete, is very "normish". I just don't see every book ever written as notable for this encyclopedia so, IMO, you gotta give more if you want it here. --Justanother 00:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been enlightened on the consensus that almost all books belong here (my paraphrase) but have agreement that Sick Puppy, as a bare plot outline, is in violation of policy and needs work if it is to remain so the PROD was fine though another might have handled it elsewise. --Justanother 01:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the smile and the laugh! -- Karen | Talk | contribs 03:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC) (who is still not a tengrem)

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In response to your email;

You state my site is "beneath me":

For a start, all my site does it take statements Tom has made himself and put them back to back, and also some satirical material that has been produced by others - all of this already exists on the net and all of it is freely available. Nothing here has been produced by me. Not one single thing.

So, does bringing Tom's own statements and the work of others together make me anti-Cruise? or does it simply mean that there's a lot of people who have a lot to say about him, his actions, and/or his religion and here's a place they can freely and anonymously express them. It's amazing how many emails I get stating that they are so grateful because they have been too scared...

But my reasons were/are as follows: I believe the statement Tom has made recently stating that people should not be using (certain) prescribed medication is not only ignorant but darn right dangerous. Life threatening in fact. Tom states that Brooke Shields and Matt Lauer are ignorant about the history of psychiatry - well he is most certainly ignorant of the circumstances of every medicated individual in the world, and as such his comments were outrageous.

No one could possibly argue that it was not completely irresponsible for Cruise to effectively tell every man, woman and child on prescribed medication for any mental illness (or other 'chemical imbalance' such as depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia, ADD/ADHD...) to suddenly stop their medication and "start exercising and taking vitamins"

Think about how many people his statements could have (and from the dozens of emails I've received HAS HAD) on those who are unwell?

But to be clear I am not "anti-Cruise", and I have at least 6-8 of his films. But, his statements were irresponsible, ignorant and dangerous and if my site pokes a little fun at him for doing that and possibly makes those people think twice before following his advice then I'm happy.

Its had over 10 millions visitors, literally saved one life that I know of, and helped hundreds see the stupidity in his statements - so no, its far from "beneath me"  Glen  18:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Did he really say "I can fly around and move stuff with my mind"? [3] --Justanother 18:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats not mine - thats a copycat http://www.scientomogy.info  Glen  18:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC) (for some reason the link isnt working... will fix or see [4]

Oh, then I will not say another word against it until I have a chance to look it over better. On first glance I must say that yours makes more "sense" to me as simply putting Tom's statements and actions up for people to judge as they will. Perhaps you see why I might find the other considerably more objectionable and would wonder whether it was "beneath you". --Justanother 18:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

For background, here is my email in full (personal info removed)

Hi Glen

Aren't you the body builder at (removed)?

I would think that someone with as much "on the ball" as you would consider creating a site dedicated to denigrating and mocking two other fellow human beings, Tom and Katie, to be beneath him.

I can respect Operation Clambake and Andreas Heldal-Lund because there I see a forum for presenting what might be legitimate criticism of Scientology and/or the CoS.

Don't you think that your site is beneath you? Aren't you lowering yourself to maybe what you perceive the level of the CoS to be?

Anyway, that is my only point.

Take care.

Justa Notherguy

--Justanother 18:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Please vote on attempt to delete new Ref Desk rules

Vote here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Reference desk/rules. StuRat 01:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding?

That is transparent trolling. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No prob with removing the Santa question the first time if done politely but the explanation is plausible so we must AGF. --Justanother 19:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No, we must not. "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary." Do you think the series of questions from this editor present evidence to the contrary, in the light of what is currently ongoing on the RD talk page? Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Legit question about piles (which you sloughed off and gave a "no answer", BTW) followed by the Santa question. OK, looks strange; delete. OK. IP comes back with a totally plausible explanation (I have kids). You blow him off. Please knock off the crusade. If this guy was trolling then he won that round. Big deal. If he trolls again we will have him. --Justanother 19:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not real, but even if it were.. What reasonable parent would allow their 6 year old near the "edit this page" button? Ned Wilbury 19:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

He said he helped he. I can totally see that happening. Please let's do this in one place - the talk page. --Justanother 19:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"woops - should look before I leap"

Heh heh heh. (That is, I got a big grin out of your double-take, there. And don't feel bad -- *I* had a big huge double-take at Hipocrite's paraphrasal, too!) —Steve Summit (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I did not realize that his was an answer to yours as I had not read yours. Both straw men point out valid issues. --Justanother 22:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Disruption (from Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/guideline#Disrepute)

Replying here since Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/guideline is strictly for talking about Wikipedia:Reference desk/guideline, and this is turning into a side conversation about disruption at this point. Yes, you're right- we need observable disruption to conclude that there's disruption, not just suspected disruption. This is already a widely accepted idea. Ned Wilbury 00:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

But I observed a tendency to delete posts based on suspicion. It is not big deal to pull them once the troll is confirmed. Why hurry? --Justanother 00:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

People will frequently disagree on when to decide someone is no longer worth the time. However if a few different people agree that something is trolling, they're usually right. If you wanted to be extra sure, you could at that point give the editor in question a "last warning" along the lines of "Look, several of us think you're just trying to cause trouble. However a few people wanted to give you another shot, so that's what we're doing, this last time." Then you re-explain the problem to the user and give them another shot. Honestly, the whole issue of problem editors is mainly something admins deal with, and unless you want to be one, you may want to avoid that whole mess. Ned Wilbury 00:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To be blunt, this occurred because one editor deleted questions because he did not AGF the OP's totally plausible explanation. That he was right is irrelevant. There was no "first warning", let alone a "last warning". Again, we have to avoid getting "too smart" here. It is OK if we miss a few. "Fool me once". We have to let them fool us once if they do a credible job of fooling us. You can be suspicious; check their history; even "tail them" (keep an eye on their contribs) if you like; but do wait for them to make the telling mistake before taking any action, either as an editor or an admin and any editor can help out with trolls and vandals. Usually it does not take long for them to reveal what they are really about. --Justanother 00:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, an editor does not have to be an admin to help out in that way. If you're into giving people that extra benefit of the doubt, that's good- the project needs people willing to do this. Best thing to do in that case is leave them a friendly talk page message asking them to clarify, or whatever is relevant to the situation. I specifically recommend leaving the message on THEIR talk page instead of on the reference desk, because it's more relevant there. With so many contributors, pages can become difficult to edit and read if off-topic things are going on everywhere. Ned Wilbury 00:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

These were WP:POINT trolls by unlogged users. I almost always discuss issues I have with editors on their talk page or leave some sort of message there if they are not clearly cognizant of what is transpiring. Most issues are ongoing ones and the parties are watching everything. --Justanother 00:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The "calculus" of criticism

Hold on - I am going to write something here. --Justanother 15:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hi! Thanks for the message. You have no idea how happy I am to see another Scientologist editing the Scientology pages on here! REally cool. Sorry if I did it wrong, or did this message here wrong, feel free to change it, I think I just saw something that was written wrong that I wanted to changed right away. Feel free to message me if you want to discuss any Scientology pages that should be edited and how we could re-write it! Bye!<Johnpedia 16:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)>

^_^

Haha, I'm not the kind of person to attack people like that so don't worry, but I will edit other pages first, and I will try and get sources. I'm a busy person and when I have the energy, I'll be going through the Scientology pages and trying to correct them. It'll be fun. Considering it's something that has pretty much nothing but positive things about it, and pretty much everything on here about it is negative, it's a little odd, so I'd like to change that. <Johnpedia 04:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)>

What are you doing ?

Can you please let me know what is being moved where ? StuRat 15:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I am doing what I suggested earlier which is to put it all on one page where it can be sorted out. There are redirects. I am in the midst so please give me a few minutes. --Justanother 15:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you're in the middle of something. But, what we have right now is all screwed up. The proposed policy itself should be on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/whatever page. It's talk page would be Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/whatever. Right now you've got the policy ON the talk page, so there's no place to talk about it. Ned Wilbury 16:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Re:Salt

Yup, you're probably right. Something does smell fishy around here... Ilikefood 22:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice answer

HAHAHA Nice answer to that question on the reference desk about questions that waste time. That was hilarious. Ilikefood 00:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks --Justanother 00:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

Hi there! If you turn a page into a redirect, you should remove its contents. If you don't, it won't be visible anyway to users, but it may appear in whatlinkshere and search lists, thus causing confusion. If your intent wasn't to remove the content, you should probably add a link instead of making a redir. HTH! (Radiant) 12:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I don't quite follow that discussion you linked to. It appears to be arguing about the proper way to create subpages following policy? I'd say that it's more important to have an arrangement that's practical (such as it is now) - in particular, keeping the debate on one page instead of four. Product trumps policy. (Radiant) 14:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done!

I know we've not always seen eye-to-eye, and all too often simple disagreements turn unfortunately personal for no good reason. However I just wanted to say that this edit is outstanding. Keep up the good work. Friday (talk) 19:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Justanother 19:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Err?

You put this back? Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing we can do with this. There's not even a question to be answered. What purpose do you think can be served by this? Friday (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

A request

Hi Justanother. Can I request that you take a look at User talk:StuRat#AGF and BITE, and have a word with him about it if you think appropriate? I worry that StuRat continues to try to polarize the debate (e.g. by categorizing everyone into his two list headings), and that this will get in the way of other users who are trying to compromise... But what it is imperative to fix quickly are incidents in which his polarized view causes him to be rude to new (or possibly new) users. I tried to explain this, but (perhaps understandably) he has no desire to listen to me. I'm hoping that, since in his view you're kind of "on his side," a comment from you would be more productive. Thanks for your consideration. SCZenz 05:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. -- SCZenz 17:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Chips

Example sidebar discussion --Justanother 02:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Is borscht cheap ? I've never checked out the price (because the thought of it just leaves me cold). StuRat 12:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Is borscht cheap? Heck, its price can't be beet! Atlant 13:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you red too much into my reply. :-) StuRat 01:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Countering Systemic Bias in Religion!

I like you!NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 03:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the song - I'm going to check that guy out. You're right, that would be an excellent theme song. I like the second verse:).

As for my troubles - worry not my friend. I got my computer professionally set up with all the latest (should have done it a while back, though). Cheers and sunshine!NinaEliza (talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 03:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Antwort

First off, you know nothing about the situation under which I said that. Second off, do NOT try to 'scold' me and evaluate my behavior. You sound like someone who has done some Scientology training or processing and has let it go to their head a little bit, and now takes every thing they learn extremely literally. If somebody is repeatedly undoing the improvements in structure and layout I have done to a page because they started the page and they don't like someone fixing 'their' page, but using the reason that it just doesn't need to be changed (when it does because of recent progress in the subject changing the matter of importance), it bugs me that they would be so petty, and yes,someone who is letting something like that get in the way of what would be better for wikipedia, yes that IS a bit of a power trip or a bit of a control issue, or something along those lines, and I am not okay with things like that. Johnpedia 06:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow

Thanks! You are SO amazing! I am in awe of your skills and everything you have learnt in Scientology! You really are a hero, and I wish all of us could be a bit more like you! Continue this subconscious feeling of superiority to other people and eagarness to show off, it's great. You're abusive to everything that Scientology is about. It's about learning things for your own and adapting them into your own and using it as a tool for yourself, not becoming what you learn and getting further away from yourself, so you come off quite ridiculous without even realizing it. Oh yeah and all the lies about Scientology on wikipedia don't even really matter,if someone is going to get into Scientology, they're not going to be thrownoff by an encyclopedia that is known for being inaccurate because its written by anyone with a computer, and you take it so seriously like it's really going to affect things and this is some warzone we need to fight, it's not going to stop scientology so don't worry about itJohnpedia 01:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Antwort

Wrong target? Don't tell me what the 'target' is, you don't decide that for people. I barely come on wikipedia as is so threaten me all you like, and what is the purpose of telling your friend about this and asking him to come say something to me on my talk page? are you trying to bore me ? Johnpedia 09:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, my last post, is cause for you to post something on mine saying last warning I'm going to be banned? I didn't 'accuse' you of enlisting someone else, I thought you had but you didn't it turns out, so basically by saying "are you trying to bore me?" that is why you are threatening to ban me? YOU KEEP POSTING ON MY TALK PAGE. STOP POSTING AND COMPLAINING AND THEN POSTING AGAIN. I'm not doing anything wrong. Take some responsibility Johnpedia 11:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Keeping my distance

Just moved my note from above down here to avoid confusion with Johnpedia's replies: Hey, I hope you have no objection to my jumping into that discussion--I spotted the exchange and thought that it should be made clear to him that the problem wasn't restricted to a question of what makes a good Scientologist. Of course, others had asked him to be civil already, so maybe it wasn't needed. I've been poking around Wikipedia again the past few days--procrastinating on multiple projects, I won't be able to do this for long--and I find myself growing increasingly frustrated by the large number of users, including admins, who don't seem to have reached the age of majority, and behave accordingly... If I stick around, I'm afraid I'm going to turn into the cranky old man with the shotgun, screaming "get off my lawn!" at the neighborhood kids. BTfromLA 17:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Re personal attacks and incivility

As far as I can see, there's no hard and fast rule about going one route or another. Putting a clear and concise note on WP:AN/I along the lines of 'I'm having trouble with persistent incivility and personal attacks from User:So-and-so and he has received warnings from me and other editors (link, link, link), can someone keep an eye on this editor?' will usually result in a rapid investigation and response.

If an admin has had previous dealings with a particular editor (in their 'admin' hat and not as part of a content conflict; the latter may create a conflict of interest), then you can also notify them. Otherwise, asking for a single specific admin to review a case is a bit of a murky area. You run the risk of creating a perception – deserved or not – that you're cherry-picking an admin who is predisposed to treat your side of the dispute more gently. (Which leads to the 'ZOMG! Teh cabal is repressing me!' paranoid ranting.)

Sorry to take so long to get back to you, by the way. I've been quite busy in the real world of late. I'm assuming that your question was about Johnpedia, in which case it appears that the matter is being monitored. (Incidentally, if you have a question about how to handle a specific situation, it's often best to simply come out and say so; couching the issue as a hypothetical, general question can make things needlessly complicated.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

So (and at the risk of putting words in your mouth) I am taking your reply as that it is generally best to post the problem on the noticeboard. Cool. No prob with the delay. I appreciate your taking the time to answer. I did not mention Johnpedia because I was not particularly looking for you or anyone to intercede there but left it general as I doubt that this is the last time I might need admin help. Re Johnpedia, I just asked him again to stop and hopefully he will respect my wish. If not I will post it on the noticeboard. So I do not think I was complicating anything, in fact I was trying to simplify. Sorry if it did not come across that way. I was not asking how to handle Johnpedia, just what is the etiquette on individual admin vs. noticeboard. I decided to cut him one last bit of slack as I had "asked for it" a bit by scolding him and so I gave him a few more free shots at me than I usually do (I usually only give one free shot). BTW, why do you say "it appears that the matter is being monitored"? Later --Justanother 15:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Lucas cells for radon measurement.

A tag has been placed on Lucas cells for radon measurement., requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

unneeded redirect of odd usage

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet very basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Justanother 16:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

That redirect is not a candidate for speedy deletion because it satisfies none of the speedy deletion criteria relevant to redirects. Its target is an existing page in the article namespace, and it is not the result of an implausible typo. Therefore, if you really want to see it die, bring it up on Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion.

Better yet, just leave it alone, because it's not hurting anyone. Redirects are cheap, and there are plenty of more important things to worry about.

In any case, why bother me with it? I didn't create anything with that title, I merely moved the existing article at "Lucas cells for radon measurement." to "Lucas cell". —Keenan Pepper 17:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey

Hey Smee. Good job on starting the RfC. Where in the world did you get the idea that you should divide the comments into vested or "neutral"? That is insulting and deserving of an RfC of its own. Please knock it off and remove them. Thanks --Justanother 20:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove these sections. They are not insulting at all. Comments are only supposed to be made by uninvolved editors coming from the RFC request, not from individuals who have previously commented on the talk pages. This is a common practice. Thanks. Smee 20:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

• Please see User:Pastordavid's comment below on this issue. Thanks. Smee 20:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
  • As an aside, I find the division of this RfC helpful. I have found, on other RfCs, that the involved parties often dominate the comments, making it difficult to tell what is an "outside opinion" and what is an "involved party." - User:Pastordavid.

Johnpedia

I am not confrontational. I am not uncivil. I feel you are being extremely dramatic. Do not threaten me. If you actually want this to stop, you would not keep posting on my talk page, correct? Yes, correct. I'm not interested in this anymore. Johnpedia 10:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Practice what you preach

It's a shame that you cannot apologize to StuRat for saying that he made a "fishy pussy" joke when he never used the word "pussy". You don't understand subtleties? He said the question was fishy. You're the only one who ever used the word "pussy" either in the original page or on StuRat's talk page. Your comment on his page was an error and you should admit your error and apologize, just as you admonish him to do. You set a poor example for him to follow. t h b 12:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I only used "pussy" instead of "vagina" on Stu's page, not on the original page, and because, at that moment, I was ticked over the mercury thing and I apologized to Stu for using that term. I really do try hard to apologize when I have erred; I just don't think that my interpretation of his "fishy" comment was an error. --Justanother 15:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

That's absurd, THB. Justanother made a fair and reasonble judgement about StuRat's intended joke, and he was right that the joke was not appropriate. Your argument here is an effort to game the system and get on peoples' nerves; in other words, it fits the classical definition of "trolling." Please stop; Wikipedia is not a place for stupid games. -- SCZenz 12:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

SCZenz is right. Justanother, thanks for your helpful and mature actions here, and I wouldn't worry for one second about THB's objections if I were you. This game of "You can't prove what I meant" was already old the first time I saw it. To continue it now is just childish and unhelpful. Friday (talk) 15:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No prob. --Justanother 15:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the inflammatory comment using pop-ups before I realized that there was already a discussion of that comment elsewhere. My talk page is reserved for insulting me, not others*, although I do not object to civil disagreement which is why I only removed the last comment. (*before someone chimes in that uncivil, insulting behavior is inappropriate here as well as elsewhere, please realize that I am being sardonic.) --Justanother 01:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Apostate not pejorative?

That is untrue. It is sometimes used as a word of abuse by certain faiths. Andries 21:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was under the assumption that it was more value-neutral as someone that has left (or given up on) a faith and that is how my American Heritage describes it but I see from here that it definitely can also have negative connotations as often used. --Justanother 22:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Like you I am interested in describing religious movements aka cults without exaggerating its faults. I think this is the case for most if not all editors here, but of course these good intentions do not stop strong disagreements. I have to admit that due to a very bad experience, I tend to distrust a certain type of NRMs. I had several colleagues who were into Scientology. Andries 22:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Clearly some valid criticisms of cults are simply special cases of criticism of religion. Andries 22:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and some criticism of cults can be simply special cases of criticism of single-minded, demanding, purpose-driven groups such as the USMC. I do not know if we have an article on that (smile).

Not sure this was a good idea

Not sure this was a good idea. We probably only encourage more of this by responding in a chatty way. Friday (talk) 20:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I am insulted by Hipocrite's preemptive strike which assumes that the RD editors cannot add to the discussion of those questions without violating the principles that we have spent months discussing! Especially as the worst offenders are seriously chastized. I am insulted. If the question or part of the question is offensive then remove it but don't try to "be the boss of us". I am a grown-up and the only boss-of-me pays me a lot of money. That was mild compared to what I really think. --Justanother 20:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you disagree, there are better ways to express that. I don't see that anyone was chastised- I just see someone trying to nip this in the bud. If everyone had the sense not to respond to trolling, that would be ideal, but we've seen over and over that this isn't the case. I don't see why you'd take this personally- is there something I missed? This could have been removed IMO but removals have raised a huge stink. I thought the preference lately was to do things other than outright removal. Friday (talk) 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

PS- Actually, I suppose the merits of Hipocrite's template ought to be discussed at WT:RD. Friday (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Nothing personal but the implied assumption that "OK, one grownup answered the question and I don't trust the rest of you." But I am not a on a crusade and I expressed my displeasure already and to the degree that I care to. I just want it on record that, as a precedent, IMO Hipocrite's action stinks. I think removal of the porn part or division into two questions would have been better had someone wanted to address it. I never even saw it before Hipocrite did his thing so I do not know what I might have done; likely divided into two questions. --Justanother 21:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You don't think we should discourage people from responding in cases like this? Is there some better way to do it? Friday (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Development of policy and enforcement of policy, in a nutshell. Removal of inappropriate questions and inappropriate responses. Exactly the direction we were moving in, I thought. --Justanother 21:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved to RD Talk Page

--Justanother 21:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Labelling someone as a "zealot" or a "fanatic" is a personal attack. I don't care if you euphemise it by saying "sounding like a... " in front. Please do not restore that comment again. Proto::► 15:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hardly. I think that is your opinion. The opinion he expressed is the very definition of those terms. Please do not remove my answer to his question. --Justanother 16:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, the comment was misplaced, and should not have been made. I do believe you meant it in the way you state above, but it didn't quite come across in that way, it did come across as a personal attack. If you have to explain why a comment isn't a personal attack, the comment probably shouldn't be there ... I've made that mistake before. It's no big deal, just please try and think about how you use such labels, and how their use can be misconstrued by others.

Others agree (note the question has been closed), and please note how the anon who also had their comment removed accepted it with good humour ([5]). I do want to apologise for threatening to block you, though - that was out of line, and I am sorry for that. Take it easy. Proto::► 18:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Apology accepted. No hard feelings, then. --Justanother 18:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment to BabyDweezil

Justanother, thank you for your comment to BabyDweezil on Brainwashing. Tanaats 20:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No prob. --Justanother 21:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

RfC

Thanks for the heads up, but I'm not able to weigh in at this time--I'm dealing with the sudden death of a close family member... I'm sure you'll understand my non-participation here for a while. I'll be back, sooner or later. Best wishes, BTfromLA 07:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Understood. My heartfelt condolences. --Justanother 14:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Mye quesstion

Why tuou remoobed my quaaestion? What means this wordd "Scam""? Please tell me urgenatily!!

Dr.Ing. Remmino skala. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.120.193.125 (talk) 20:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Haha Doc. See here. Happy 419 (though I know you are just fooling around). --Justanother 20:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

How did you know I was fooling aarounnd? Col.Dr.Ing. Ren Min Zhuo Skala IV 89.120.193.125 20:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, for one thing you did not put a contact e-mail which you would have had you been "serious" and for another, I've done the scammer-baiting thing, and they are not that illiterate. Too many errorrrrrs. --Justanother 20:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I see. However, the reference desk explicitly states "don't post your e-mail address" (or something like that). I couldn't just go ahead and blatantly break the rules like that. And the errors are just fun to type. Greeting you from Romania and wishing you the lucky clouds of Enki, Colonel Engineer Prof.Univ.Dr. Rimini Scala & Kolacny Brothers the Fourth (or maybe Fifth). Cheers and Mucha suerte, hermano! 89.120.193.125 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a 419 scammer would not want to break our rules (laff). Muchas gracias. Vaya con Dios, amigo. Pero no jodas mas, OK? --Justanother 20:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how I knew that you speak Spanish, but I just did. Either way, I had just read some BJAODN and felt like having some fun with my IP. Now I feel bad for taking up server space. Oh, well. Thank you for keeping your calm. Matei Tache 20:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am glad that you feel some remorse (smile). No harm done. Good guess on the Spanish. I can get by in Spanish when I need to. I would love to live in a Spanish-speaking country for a bit and polish it up. --Justanother 20:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Response

• Responded on my talk page. Smee 04:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Out of curiosity, what is your level on the road to total freedom? Smee 05:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Quite sufficient but, sorry, I do not go into more detail than that. --Justanother 05:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, did not mean to be short but I was in the midst. Did you have a question other than about personal details that I have decided to hold close to my chest? --Justanother 05:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I am also curious, why is your OT-Level or lack thereof personal for you? Is this something also considered "personal details" by other Scientologists or information they share freely with each other and with friends? If so, why or why not? Smee 05:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Read my user page. --Justanother 05:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Does not address my specific questions from my last posting. Acknowledging your own OT-level would not be that revealing, would it? And if so, is this something that most Scientologists reveal about themselves proudly and publicly, or not? I am curious. Smee 05:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

I do not talk about myself in that way. End of story. --Justanother 05:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not though? Or do you also not talk about why you don't talk about it? And what about other Scientologists? Do they? Or is it a general practice not to? Smee 05:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Oh. No, Scientologists are proud of their progress up the Bridge and are happy to discuss it. I have chosen to remain anonymous here though and so have chosen to not reveal much detail about myself. I can see no upside to it. --Justanother 05:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I can certainly respect that. But I gather from other sources and reading that if Scientologists were to be editing the article Xenu for example, those Scientologists would have to be OT-III or higher, according to doctrine? Smee 05:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

No, a Scientologist in good standing cannot edit the articles on OT from a first-person perspective. That would constitute revealing material that they have sworn to keep confidential. --Justanother 05:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh. So according to doctrine, really no Scientologists should be editing articles on Wikipedia pertaining to levels OT-III and higher, unless they are specifically told to by some sort of office like OSA or something probably...  ? Smee 05:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Don't know about OSA but any Scientologist could, however, wear his editor's hat, and work to see that materials such as Xenu conform to wikipedia policies of WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV, i.e WP:PILLARS.

So in more direct response, I cannot see any Scientologist in good standing making the confidential material "right". Personally, I usually don't mess with it. What I might do on occasion is clean-up in relation to wikipedia policies. There is a whole lot more to Scientology than the confidential materials so there is plenty of work to be done and I wish a few more Scientologists would come on board here! --Justanother 05:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Do Scientologists lower than OT-III know enough to know that they are not supposed to know anything about Xenu and try to avoid it, or do they just not know anything at all about this? Smee 05:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

I really don't know enough to generalize. The confidentiality of the upper levels is serious business in Scientology. I think that most non-Scientologists cannot really grasp what it all means anyway so when they walk in the door it would likely be handled as "the internet is full of misrepresentations; now let's see about getting you on course so we can do something about . . ." And that is the truth: "the internet is full of misrepresentations" and worse. And it has little to do with whether Scientology can help someone live a better life. --Justanother 06:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Kommentar

I checked out the Hein quote on Scientology being a hate group in the "NRM" article that you referred to on another user discussion board. As I understand it, "hate group" is a term with an established meaning--it refers to far-right groups which spread open, direct hatred against Jews, blacks and other ethnic groups. Period. It is inapplicable in referring to Scientology's policy of harassing opponents; it is also inapplicable in referring to ex-member critics of various purported cults. Both of these usages are cheap analogies representing a highjacking of an established term. The citing of "hate group" accusations in the context of the pro and anti cult debate should only be for the purpose of showing how heated rhetoric gets out of control on both sides. It is worth no more than a sentence in the NRM article, and if indeed the use of such rhetoric is not widespread I would advocate removing it altogether as useless information. I should add that I am opposed to Scientology's theological doctrine re harassment of opponents, but I think your church has probably suffered a lot more from its application (through negative publicity that has made millions of people regard Scientology as a "scary" organization) than its critics have. L. Ron Hubbard was always a man who changed with the times (look at how his science-fiction themes and styles changed). Maybe you need to change on this (just as the Mormons changed their doctrines on race, leading to a large upsurge in membership around the world).--Dking 18:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I truly appreciate your thoughtful commentary. Thank you. --Justanother 18:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Justanother,

How can I contact you by pm? I can't find your talk page. Tried to delete the block warnings on Antaeus and Tilman, but it did not work.

Also I would like to know, how does one give someone a barnstar?

Much obliged,

S. M. Sullivan 20:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

Hi. You can email me through the wikipedia system. But be aware that I have no secret email information to impart that I will not impart right here on wikipedia. Nor do I co-ordinate editing wikipedia by use of private email. I can do all the co-ordinating I need to do right here. I have nothing to hide. However, if you need help with something personal or have a question that you are not comfortable posting here then go right ahead. Re barnstar, you just go to WP:BARNSTARS and find one you like and copy it to the talk page of the person you want to give it to. Also, please use the talk pages for communicating with editors, not their other user pages. --Justanother 20:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		for helpful advice to a newcomer S. M. Sullivan 23:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks S. M. Sullivan! I appreciate it. --Justanother 23:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Justanother, this place is overwhelmingly strange to me. I will be doing LOTS of reading and very little editing for a while. My tendency IRL has always been to jump right in and take over, but in a place based on consensus that obviously won't work. Besides, I still have no clue what needs doing around here. I saw things that were obviously wrong and tried to handle unilaterally (Now we both know what happens when editors do this...) Any suggestions about work that needs doing? I'd like to help.

S. M. Sullivan 00:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. My best suggestions are in my welcome message and on my user page which has a link to my "write-up". You cannot "unilaterally" change things if that means put in what is important to you without citing sources and nor can you remove stuff that is important to others that is correctly cited. You can put in things that are important to you if you cite them and you can challenge stuff you don't like and insist that the folks that want it there source it properly. Just watch and stay polite and you can, to be honest, make all the mistakes that you need to. You will get corrected and will eventually get it. What will get you in trouble (and banned from here) is getting personal or upset or retaliating. You gotta be Teflon, let it all slide off (I do not always take my own advice . . . but I try to.) --Justanother 01:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

RV

I have seen that an edit you made using popups to Dalip Singh came out like this "(Revert to revision $1 dated $2 by $3 using popups)" ,I have the same problem..do you know what might be causing the problem..???--Cometstyles 14:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Just some bust in the server-side script most likely. I am sure it will be repaired soon. have a nice day. --Justanother 14:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

You're both missing the popupQueriedRevertSummary= command at the end of your monobook code. Mine looks like this below.

// [[User:Lupin/popups.js]]

document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="' 
             + 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lupin/popups.js' 
             + '&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>');
popupQueriedRevertSummary='Reverted to version by $3 on $2 - Using popups';

- X201 17:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll check it out. Was working fine up to yesterday or today. It is already noted on the User:Lupin/popups.js talk page. --Justanother 17:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Lupin has this

'defaultpopupQueriedRevertSummary': 'Revert to revision $1 dated $2 by $3 using [[:en:Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups|popups]]'

and

newOption('popupQueriedRevertSummary', popupString('defaultpopupQueriedRevertSummary') );

Maybe the error is in there. --Justanother 17:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup I agree, it was working fine till yesterday but I dont know what happened and I thoughtit was because of that updating messages we were getting by Topaz..Anywayz mine is not fixed and now Iam getting "Reverted to last edit by $3"..Lupin should fix this..--Cometstyles 17:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

You can try adding that line as a workaround. I am not really too concerned as the function still works. I am sure it will be repaired soon. If not I can use VP or try the workaround. --Justanother 17:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I just found out that Lupin has change his User:Lupin/popups.js(check in the History)

yesterday to Development version and thats whats causing the problem..Iam not sure what to do..I think I'll wait till someone complains to him about his changes..--Cometstyles 17:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Try using Mozilla or try using IE7 because the popup error only has a problem with IE Version 6...Iam using Mozilla Firefox right know and its working quite fine..cheers--Cometstyles 19:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I will see if it sorts out by tomorrow. If not I will try the workaround. Take care. --Justanother 19:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

awrite, waddabout this

Am I being thickheaded as usual, or is this mess sheer mendacity? n.b. the admin's actions. BabyDweezil 20:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)