Talk:Style of the British sovereign

of Great Britain Queen?

Why is the title of the British sovereign "X, by the Grace of God, OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND QUEEN" and not "X, by the Grace of God, QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND"? Before the union with Ireland, the style was "X, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain," and then after the union it became "X, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland King," why the change? I get that the title in Latin has "Queen" after "of Great Britain," but an accurate and correct translation should still be "Queen of Great Britain," right? And, after Ireland separated from the UK, the title, under George V, "by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King" and not "King of Great Britain, Ireland, etc." WHY is King/Queen AFTER the title!?

These just are the gazetted, official English titles. (Please sign your posts.) Errantios (talk) 13:50, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Request for outside input: Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act, 1927

There's currently a discussion at Talk:Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act about the constitutional significance of the Act and its impact on the relationship between the UK, the Crown and the dominions. The problem is that the article as it stands makes some very sweeping but questionable claims about the impact of the Act on the status of the monarch vis-a-vis the dominions. Input from anyone with any knowledge of or interest in this area would be greatly appreciated. This notice may be put up on a couple of other talkpages. Iota 00:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

British Monarch

I have a question after I read the following passage in the Wiki-article "Peerage":

All British honours, including peerage dignities, spring from the Sovereign, who is considered the fount of honour. The Sovereign him or herself cannot belong to the Peerage as "the fountain and source of all dignities cannot hold a dignity from himself" (opinion of the House of Lords in the Buckhurst Peerage Case).

It seems to me that the above passage is not correct, because British monarch could hold ohter aristocratic titles besides the title King, for example:

Lord of Man, Prince of Orange(William III), Elector of Hannover(George I), Duke of Normandy(Henry II) etc.

Could anyone please explain to me ?

--Siyac 14:37, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

• The British monarch can hold [i]foreign[/i] titles and honours since as they're not [i]British[/i] honours flowing from the Sovereign. Lord of Man is a feudal title that was George III got when he bought the island from the family that owned it. (Alphaboi867)

A few questions

Q: Does anyone know an example of a member of British royal family who is a commoner ?

--Siyac 12:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Define commoner. Under the strictest defination anyone who is neither the soveriegn or a peer is a commoner; according to this Princes William and Harry are both commoners. Of course most people don't consider Prince/sses and other titles persons commoners. The highest ranking members of the royal family to lack titles of any kind Princess Anne's kids, Peter and Zara Phillips. Their father was a commoner who declined to Queen's offer of an earldom. (Alphaboi867 23:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC))

Q: Who is "Mary Queen of Chile" ? That doesn't make any sense - somebody needs to clean up this article. (Charlie (talk) 04:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)) 04:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Welsh

Can somebody please add an explanation as to why the Welsh translation is included? I suppose it's the one language other than English regularly used in British government, but why should it be used in this article if it's effectively a translation?

Yes, why is it also in Welsh? GoodDay 23:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Presumably because it is the only other language in which the style is officially defined. Even a translation will have nuances, so is worth including. I think that if this were an article about the style of the sovereign a non-English-speaking country, we would include it in all the languages in which it was officially defined, as well as in English. TSP 23:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

See United Kingdom fo similiar arguement on the UK's official language. If Welsh is added, Scottish & Irish should be too. GoodDay 00:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you're making the question too broad. The issue is not what the UK's official language(s) is/are, but simply in what languages the Style of the British Sovereign has been officially defined. Sources are provided for the two existing languages. If you can find sources which state what the style of the British sovereign has been officially defined to be in either Irish or Scots Gaelic, then absolutely they should be included; but we should not be saying what languages these things should be defined in, merely reporting what languages they are defined in. TSP 11:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was just 'surprised' that there's no 'Scottish' or 'Irish' transilations. GoodDay 21:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There are different issues here. Welsh has always been a living language in active use in Wales; the lowest its use has dropped to is 21%, and it is now rising from that. Scots Gaelic was rescued from near extinction during the latter half of last century, and only a few percent of the population speak it as a primary language. Irish, while spoken widely in some parts of the Republic of Ireland, is rarer in Northern Ireland (with a predictable political divide), and has no official status (though there are proposals to give it one). In a lot of areas of UK government, the two languages that material must be made available in are English and Welsh. TSP 22:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Should it be noted that these are the only languages the monarch is currently styled in? 67.176.160.47 (talk) 04:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

2 questions

Why does the list only begin in 1066? And why aren't places like Australia and Canada listed for the current monarch (after all, Scotland is listed and that was only a personal union, same with Normandy, etc.)? TharkunColl 23:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the list should go back to 'at least' Egbert of Wessex, and Secondly, that's a UK, first among equals VS All are equal Commonwealth question. GoodDay 23:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, and please stop characterising my arguments thus - they are nothing of the sort. This list includes both England and Scotland when they were in personal union. So why should it not list Australia, Canada, etc.? As for Egbert, he was never king of England. TharkunColl 23:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

List should go back to Alfred the Great of England & Kenneth I of Scotland. Sorry 'bout characterization. GoodDay 23:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

PS- Where's the Scottish monarchs from Kenneth I to Mary I (Mary, Queen of Scots)? GoodDay 23:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Should" seems an odd question to ask. This is about what titles were used, isn't it? We can't go adding to the titles of historical monarchs because we feel they should have used a different one.

By my understanding, until their various independences, Australia, Canada and the like were simply British colonies. Some monarchs chose to recognise some or all of the colonies in their titles ("the British Dominions beyond the Seas" and the like), but ultimately they were monarchs of the colonies because they were monarchs of Britain.

At independence, the monarchies split, and the Queen's position as "Queen of Canada" is theoretically separate from her position as "Queen of the United Kingdom". I'm not aware that a compound title is ever used.

But, yes, it is entirely valid to ask why this page traces the English line back and not the Scottish. I would have thought that it would be best to trace back to James I and VI, and have separate pages (or at least sections) for the styles of English and Scottish monarchs. Arguably it should only go back to Anne, but if the monarchs in question actually did use a compound style it seems simpler to keep them as one list rather than have two separate ones. TSP 23:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It should only go back to Anne, then. She's is the 'first' British monarch. GoodDay 00:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

From 1603 to 1707 the crowns of England and Scotland were legally separate, yet both are listed here. So why don't we list the Commonwealth realms under Elizabeth II? TharkunColl 10:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Possibly I'm misunderstanding your point. Both are listed here because the monarchs in question used a single style including both. The Commonwealth realms are not listed because Elizabeth II, in her role as British monarch, does not use a style including them. As I say, I'm not sure that should comes into it - this page is reporting what styles were/are used, not saying what styles should be used. TSP 11:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have WP:BOLD been bold and divided the 'Styles' section into English, Scottish (currently blank), English and Scottish and British. There seems no neutral reason to trace the history back along the English line but not along the Scottish. TSP 11:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

With regard to your previous point, the list is incorrect anyway. James I adopted the title "King of Great Britain" in 1604, despite the fact that the two kingdoms of England and Scotland remained separate. So the list as it stands most definitely does not reflect what the monarchs actually called themselves, and seems instead to simply describe what countries they were monarchs of. In which case, there is no legitimate reason to exclude the Commonwealth realms under Elizabeth II. For example, the list currently includes such places as Normandy and Anjou, which were never part of the English monarchy - they just shared a monarch. TharkunColl 14:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, that's a problem - it's true that this page is a bit low on sources. This page purports to be a list of the styles actually used by British monarchs - I think it's clear that all the "By the Grace of God" bits wouldn't be included if the intention was to "simply describe what countries they were monarchs of". If it isn't accurate, we need to fix that; but that isn't a reason to say that we might as well throw accuracy to the wind and just list what we think the titles should have been.

I seem to remember that in the case of places like Normandy and Anjou, and certainly France, for a lot of the time they appeared in the monarch's title, the monarch didn't even rule those places; they were included in the style of the British monarch purely as claims that the British monarch was also entitled to rule those places. In the case of Australia and Canada, as I understand it, the monarchies are very explicitly separate, and different styles are maintained (the Canadian one of which mentions the UK; but the Australian one doesn't) and used in the various territories. TSP 19:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, the English/British monarchs from 1328-1801. Styled themselves as King/Queen of France. As for the Commonwealth monarchies? Head of the Commonwealth is acceptable. GoodDay 20:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

-the title 'Head of the Commonwealth' refers to the British monarch's ex officio position as Head of the Commonwealth of Nations; which is not a monarchical title; and it does not refer to the Commonwealth realms. The phrase 'and of her other realms of territories' is the phrase used in the titulary of the British monarch that refers to the other Commonwealth realms; and is used in this way in each and every other commonwealth realm too in respect to the Queen's title as regards each respective realm. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Defender of...

"...Defender of the Earth." Shouldn't that be faith?68.175.19.252 20:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete

This article is incomplete concerning its Scottish section. The Scottish monarchs go back before 1603 (like the English monarchs). Would somebody please correct this. GoodDay (talk) 17:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

And the English ones go back to before 1066 as well. The whole thing is just incomplete. But please don't let them add the Pictish ones as well! TharkunColl (talk) 17:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The Picts can't be added, unless the Wessex are added. Actually, this article shouldn't even have the English and Scottish monarchs. This article's earliest date should be 1707. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:76-834.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I have suggested merging Most Excellent Majesty, Most Gracious Majesty and Britannic Majesty to this article simply because those articles are little more than stubs and will always be subsets of content on this page. I suggest creating a section with the forms of Majesty used by the British sovereign and the context under which they are used rather than having three little articles on the very closely related subjects. Charles 22:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. They are all variants of Majesty.--Gazzster (talk) 13:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps also add the information to Majesty? DBD 13:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Howabout giving these articles a chance to expand? GoodDay (talk) 14:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

How could they expand, buddy?--Gazzster (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, DBD. A template at the section on British variants of Majesty can notify the reader to also see Style of the British Sovereign. GoodDay, some article will never expand... We don't always have to be so inclusionist with individual articles for absolutely everything. Charles 16:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ya mean there's nothing more to put in them? GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I admit I dont know much about them, but how big could they get? Beyond stating what the style is, a bit of history and the circumstances in which they are used, what else?--Gazzster (talk) 16:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It appears merge is the preferred option. Best I go with the majority. GoodDay (talk) 16:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The information is now at Majesty#The United Kingdom (also, if anyone thinks they can clean it up a little, please do :) ). I can work on adding it to this page as well but I have a lunch meeting to go to shortly. Cheers! Charles 16:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Good job.--Gazzster (talk) 16:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Highess, Grace, Majesty

"Majesty", however, was not used exclusively; it arbitrarily alternated with both "Highness" and "Grace", even in official documents. For example, one legal judgment issued by Henry VIII uses all three indiscriminately; Article 15 begins with "the Kinges Highness hath ordered," Article 16 with "the Kinges Majestie" and Article 17 with "the Kinges Grace."

-Highness, Grace and Majesty

I would be interested in a citation for this one legal judgement, not because I doubt it (I don't really), not so much that I think it should be there (it should, of course), but that I'd like to read it.

-SM

I don't think what's said in the article is correct. My understanding is that the Emperor had been using the style Majesty for some centuries before the kings of England & France adopted it. Peter jackson (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Frankreich

Have you not left out the &c or etc. after "beyond the Seas" that came into use after the 1763 Treaty of Paris? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cphilips (talk • contribs) 13:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Ha(n)nover

Didn't the promotion of Hanover to a Kingdom come some time after the Act of Union 1801? —Tamfang (talk) 03:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Congress of Vienna, wasn't it?--Gazzster (talk) 06:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The Electorates were abolished along with the Holy Roman Empire, so the Elector of Hanover was made a King instead.--Gazzster (talk) 06:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

-the British government did not acknowledge the abolition of the Holy Roman Empire on August 6th, 1806. Thus; the British monarch continued to use the electoral titles pertaining to Hanover until the creation of the Kingdom of Hanover in 1814 and continued to use the Electoral bonnet over the inescutcheon of the Hanoverian dominions in the royal arms; quite strangely up until 1816. Similarly; Hesse-Cassel continued to use the electoral style after the abolition of the Empire.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:17, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Irish and Scottish

How come there is only the Welsh translation of the full styles of Elizabeth II? Someone should include the Irish and Scottish version of it.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, this is discussed above. The only officially defined versions are in English and Welsh. And just a pointer, there are 2 "Scottish" languages - the Scots language & the Scottish Gaelic language. Scroggie (talk) 22:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Berwick-on-Tweed

Wasn't Berwick-upon-Tweed sometimes mentioned separately? I seem to remember something about Elizabeth I being Queen of England and Berwick-upon-Tweed. See also Wales and Berwick Act 1746 etc. AnonMoos (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC) -No; that's just an oft-repeated misconception. It's true that Berwick had a separate status from the rest of England; that of a Royal Borough (but it was legally still part of England; and the same is equally true of the counties palatine of Cornwall and Lancaster, and previously of Durham and Chester) that English law did not apply to Berwick (or Wales) unless explicitly mentioned in the particular Act; but the British monarch did not have any particular title in the royal style as regards Berwick; and never did. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:24, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

King of France

"George III used the opportunity to drop both the reference to France and "etc." from the style."

Why would he want to do that? 81.68.255.36 (talk) 12:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Might be something to do with the Napoleonic Wars. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

More specifically, it became awkward for the British king to claim to be king of France while at the same time insisting that the exiled Bourbon pretender was the legitimate king of France. Of course, the Stuart pretenders managed to pull of the trick of claiming to be the king of France while at the same time living as guests of the actual kings of France. --Jfruh (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey thanks! 81.68.255.36 (talk) 10:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Welsh etc

I think the article should make it clear that the legislation that actually confers these titles on the Monarch confers these titles only in the English and Lating languages. At the moment it is really misleading. NelsonSudan (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Different style for George III?

I saw the text of the Treaty of Paris (1783) and it uses a different style for George III: "George the third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France and Ireland, defender of the faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunenburgh, Arch-treasurer and Prince-Elector of the holy Roman Empire, &c." [1] Hot Stop talk-contribs 04:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC) -The above style is the correct one. The title was never formally 'Elector of Hanover' (and likewise; neither did any of the other electors bear such titles as 'Elector of Brandenburg'; 'Elector of Bavaria'; etc.). JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Henry II or John

There is contradiction in text and in table about beginning of use titles "King of England, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine and Count of Anjou" instead of "King of English, Duke of the Normans, Duke of the Aquitanians and Count of the Angevins"... 1154 or 1199? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.141.150 (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Lady of the English, Queen of England and Duke of Normans

This is Modern English, but Matilda (if somehow she'd learned English) would have used a form of very early Middle English. Wouldn't it rather have been in Latin or Anglo-Norman? 129.79.203.172 (talk) 15:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• English wiki is in English, understand?--Yopie (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Chile?

Attributed to Mary and Philip:

By the grace of God, King and Queen of England and France, Naples, Jerusalem, Chile and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Princes of Spain and Sicily, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Milan, Burgundy, and Brabant, Count and Countess of Habsburg, Flanders, and Tyrol

Chile was added 25 Mar 2011 (by someone with only one other edit) with this summary: Philip was made King of Chile before his marrige so he would have an equal title, it was included in there style. Hm. It's not mentioned in Philip's own article. Was the name 'Chile' known in Spain by then? —Tamfang (talk) 08:30, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

It's unsourced and extremely dubious. I'm removing it. Surtsicna (talk) 08:39, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Stewart kings styled themselves "King of Great Britain".

This article is inaccurate. From as early as 1603, King James VI / I customarily styled himself "King of Great Britain", rather than "King of England, Scotland, etc.", and the other Stuart monarchas (Charles I, Charles II, James II) followed suit. True, the parliaments of England and Scotland were not yet united, but the Stuart kings RULED England and Scotland as a single entity, Great Britain. Paintings of Charles I, for example, are labeled "Carolus Rex Magnae Britanniae". JD — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.156 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 25 September 2014‎ (UTC)

You would need to find a reference to a published reliable source for such a change. --David Biddulph (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia etc.

The Latin version of the style is undoubtedly correct, but does anyone know why it uses the English form of the name ("Elizabeth") rather than the Latin form, "Elizabet(h)a"? Looking back to previous Monarchs, the Latin styles always used the "proper" Latin forms of the names – Georgius, Edwardus, Guilielmus, Maria, Anna, Carolus, Iacobus, etc. P M C 09:32, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Coins of the pound sterling#Regal titles notes that Edward III and both Elizabeths use(d) the English versions of their names. History of the English penny (1154–1485) suggests the names used in the legends weren't standardised (Henri (II), Henricus, Edw (I), Edward (III), Edwardus, Ricardus, Ricard (II), Henric (IV)), even to the point of not changing for Richard I and John; while Crown (English coin) shows Edvvard VI. Tudor pennies shrank the legend further (H, E, P Z M, E). It looks like they didn't really standardise on the Latin forms until James I and VI. I would speculate that Elizabeth II was following the precedent of Elizabeth I's crowns, choosing on aesthetic grounds, or both.—dah31 (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

One may add to that: the May 1953 London Gazette gives in the titles 'Fidei Defensor' when surely this should read 'Fidei Defensatrix'. To this day, the Fid Def abbreviation on the coinage is an abbreviation of the latter. The 1953 coins also were minted Elizabetha. All other Latin genders take the feminine for the duration of the present reign, which makes it strange that the London Gazette should have printed what it did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.51.170 (talk) 12:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Which 1953 coins have "Elizabetha"? A quick search shows "ELIZABETH II DEI GRA BRITT OMN REGINA F D" on all circulating coins but the sixpence (which had "FID DEF" on the reverse) and "ELIZABETH II DEI GRATIA BRITT OMN REGINA FIDEI DEFENSOR" on the Coronation crown. "VIVAT REGINA ELIZABETHA" is the edge inscription of the 70th birthday five pounds.—dah31 (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of titles and honours of the British Monarch which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:47, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Has been moved. Errantios (talk) 01:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Britanniarum omnium

What's the correct translation of Britanniarum omnium? The article currently says "of all the Britons", but I don't think that's right. I don't know much Latin, but I believe Britanniarum is the genitive plural of "Britannia" - the place - and not whatever the Latin word for Briton (a person) is. Shouldn't the translation be "of all Britains" or "of all Britannias"? I found some confirmation of this through web searches, but only in message boards, so not reliable sources. Indefatigable (talk) 17:37, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Britannia has a plural: Lewis & Short, Latin Dictionary [2]. Why it should have been used here is beyond me. Errantios (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I've inserted the option "of all the British lands". Similarly, "of the British lands" in efns in the list of British titles .Errantios (talk)

Latin translation

This needs updating to Rex, etc. 185.48.63.1 (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Been done. Errantios (talk) 14:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Title Change, or a lack thereof

Unless I am mistaken, Charles III's ascension to the throne has not changed the Royal title beyond the gender and the top of "List of changes to the royal style" states that "Changes that only take into account the gender of the sovereign (such as replacing "King" with "Queen") are not indicated". 2A00:23C5:A180:2901:2CD4:CEF7:1AEE:B6F6 (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

You are correct: the Accession Proclamation of 2022 makes no other change. Errantios (talk) 22:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

"By/by" and "God,"

Checking against the Gazette issues all the British titles from 1901 on, I've corrected all "By" to "by" and removed all commas after "God". I've then done the same for earlier British titles, assuming that they were in the same form—but subject to re-correction from their own sources.

Similar changes may be appropriate in the other lists. Happy to discuss: my French is very good and my Latin possibly adequate. Errantios (talk) 14:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)