Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
Undid revision 1121084461 by 85.132.96.210 (talk) Stale, removed three (now four) times already, just readding it is getting duisruptive so please don't |
Acroterion (talk | contribs) →Result concerning Saucysalsa30: TB for six months |
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::::::Response to Saucysalsa30's latest note: ANI is not an appropriate place to discuss anything that involves private information, and is for current, ongoing problems that require immediate attention, not things that happened in August. If the arbs declined to act, then the subject is closed, as it must be here. Please do not litigate that issue here or anywhere else, I am focused on conduct on the relevant topic areas. I am reviewing the other material, please resist the urge to enlarge on the dispute. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 12:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC) |
::::::Response to Saucysalsa30's latest note: ANI is not an appropriate place to discuss anything that involves private information, and is for current, ongoing problems that require immediate attention, not things that happened in August. If the arbs declined to act, then the subject is closed, as it must be here. Please do not litigate that issue here or anywhere else, I am focused on conduct on the relevant topic areas. I am reviewing the other material, please resist the urge to enlarge on the dispute. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 12:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:My general impression on reading through the extremely lengthy talkpage discussions and diffs is that there is a thread of [[WP:IDHT]], which extends to this discussion, in which Saucysalsa is focused on portraying other editors as aggressors or rehashing old disagreements after being advised to stop. The sheer volume of words is indicative of a tendency to bludgeon discussions, even here. I can't say that either TTAAC or Saucysalsa30 have been shining examples of civility or righteous conduct, but I'm seeing a consistent thread of tendentiousness in Saucysalsa's overall conduct with respect to Iraqi attacks on Kurds and with respect to Galbraith. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 01:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC) |
:My general impression on reading through the extremely lengthy talkpage discussions and diffs is that there is a thread of [[WP:IDHT]], which extends to this discussion, in which Saucysalsa is focused on portraying other editors as aggressors or rehashing old disagreements after being advised to stop. The sheer volume of words is indicative of a tendency to bludgeon discussions, even here. I can't say that either TTAAC or Saucysalsa30 have been shining examples of civility or righteous conduct, but I'm seeing a consistent thread of tendentiousness in Saucysalsa's overall conduct with respect to Iraqi attacks on Kurds and with respect to Galbraith. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 01:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::Suacuysalsa's insistence on attacking the source of the complaint rather than responding to its substance, together with their tendentious behavior in the subject area and in this discussion, lead me to conclude that a topic ban, broadly construed, on Kurdistan-related topics is needed to deal with their consistent battleground conduct. This includes Peter Galbraith, Iraqi use of chemical weapons, and related matters. I'm setting the topic ban for six months. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 00:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC) |
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*I read all that and reached the same conclusions as Acro. Report seems legitimate and actionable, and SS’s extreme bludgeoning is largely unrelated. Instead, they argue that they are a victim and they are being harassed by the OP, and falsely claim that OP has been warned for that. This was highly misleading, and the misleading, attacking, bludgeoning and disrupting of the process here appears to be a reflection of the problem. [[User:Swarm|<span style="color:black">'''~Swarm~'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Swarm|<span style="color:DarkViolet">{sting}</span>]]</sup> 02:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC) |
*I read all that and reached the same conclusions as Acro. Report seems legitimate and actionable, and SS’s extreme bludgeoning is largely unrelated. Instead, they argue that they are a victim and they are being harassed by the OP, and falsely claim that OP has been warned for that. This was highly misleading, and the misleading, attacking, bludgeoning and disrupting of the process here appears to be a reflection of the problem. [[User:Swarm|<span style="color:black">'''~Swarm~'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Swarm|<span style="color:DarkViolet">{sting}</span>]]</sup> 02:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 00:10, 11 November 2022
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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USaamo
USaamo's topic ban expanded to cover all of WP:ARBIPA, appealable no sooner than six months from now signed, Rosguill talk 21:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning USaamo
Apart from 2 of these diffs, he has also violated his topic ban on August 2020,[3] and also on May 2022.[4] Both times he was clarified that the topic ban is broadly construed. I hadn't reported either violation, only asked him to back off, but both times he was not understanding how he is violating the topic ban. When he violated it last week, I reported at User talk:EdJohnston#Continued topic ban violation by USaamo, where he again failed to accept the topic ban violation. WP:IDHT again. Few weeks ago, I already provided my comment just above at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement_by_Aman.kumar.goel that why USaamo needs a broader topic ban himself, given his long-term inability to edit in this area. These recent topic ban violations just prove it further. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 03:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
@RegentsPark: A topic ban violation is a topic ban violation. Why a warning? This is USaamo's 4th topic ban violation since he has been topic banned. He deliberately violated the topic ban on 6th October even after being told about it. You can take a look at his response here. He is still not accepting his topic ban violation and assuming bad faith with his WP:BATTLEy response. I still recommend extending topic ban or a block for violation at minimum. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 17:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
@Vice regent: With this falsification of evidence, you are complying with a WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior for which you were already warned by WP:ARBCOM during Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics#Vice regent warned. Contrary to your false claims, this report was filed not after "getting into content disputes" but a number of topic ban violations by USaamo because he is refusing to understand the definition of his topic ban. The content was added by a sock months ago. Not to mention the sources are weak and even cite unreliable ones. I made many attempts to describe USaamo a few times on his talk page but he was ignoring it.[8] To claim that "Aman.kumar.goel's edits violated policy" and "Usaamo modified the article text to match the sources", is absurd because it was already made clear to USaamo that Pakistan is not a regional power and it has been already extensively discussed but he ignored all inputs and continued to edit war, just like he did on 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault and is now edit warring at Talk:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault. This edit is not a revert, neither this edit is any BLP violation or undue. If you seriously thought that these diffs are going to divert from USaamo's behavior then your behavior is even more concerning. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 02:51, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning USaamoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by USaamoA useless report and yet another attempt to drag me to AE to frustrate me out. I suggest AE should have a preliminary scrutiny for reports to be formally accepted for proceedings here. It will not only save their time but will also protect users from being dragged into baseless and frivolous reports. Update (Please allow it if it gets past 500 words) I really intended no edit war from start but somehow I was dragged into it as some editors with no prior editing history at 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault (but significant interaction history with OP[19]) showed up and reverted me one after one but I shouldn't have involved in edit-warring from my side which I highly regret, perhaps I should have been more patient in the process. As to the new edit-warring allegations brought up by Aman.kumar.goel on behalf of one of those editors, I only meant to improve the RfC discussion at talkpage as I filed for RfC close after editors suggested for convenience of the closer and gathered relevant responses as the discussions have been quite long and messy over there per WP:TPG. As to the moving one of comment below I wasn't sure that RfC can be restarted after template was removed month prior and the editor who started it also viewed about summing it up month ago. I even asked about it from other editor whose comment was being moved. USaamo (t@lk) 17:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC) @EdJohnston:, @Swarm:, @RegentsPark:, @Hut 8.5: I showed my resolve to abide by topic ban and regretted edit-warring from my side but still if it's necessary to sanction me and that will make Wikipedia better, fair enough. But there's an important note at the top of this AE which states:
I don't understand even after highlighting the problematic behaviour of the OP from edit-warring to POV pushing, see VR's statement and report below for further illustration, there's not a single word from Admins, not even mere warning against him. Best of luck for AE's neutrality! USaamo (t@lk) 09:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeI recommend not expanding this to "pages that mention an India-Pakistan war"; that's a recipe for wikilawyering, and giving opponents a chance to play Gotcha. Is there a reason to prevent Usaamo from editing Henry Kissinger? If Usaamo is skirting the edge of the ban, I recommend broadening to an Indo-Pakistani conflict TBAN, or enforcing the ban with escalating blocks. If there's confusion about the edges of a TBAN, Usaamo ought to be aware that asking is better than assuming the TBAN doesn't apply. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by KoAVanamonde, I was curious to dig a little after seeing your comments, and your thoughts would directly contradict the topic ban. Here was EdJohnston's close That's not to comment on the merits of this request at all, but I am wary of DS sanctions being undermined by those claiming the DS are being weaponized, playing gotcha, etc. when the broadly construed boundaries of those sanctions were already laid out. This topic ban was pretty clear as day, and broadly construed sanctions like that are done for a reason. If someone is pushing the boundaries, that is on the topic banned person regardless of if they are being WP:HOUNDed or not. KoA (talk) 18:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by Robert McClenonI was quoted above (correctly) as having offered to mediate a dispute. I will only mediate any dispute between editors who are free to edit in the area in question. I will instruct the editors not to edit the article in question, but the editors must be in good standing to edit. The editor to whom I made that offer has been topic-banned, so that that offer is moot. I am again willing to try to mediate another dispute, but only if there are no topic-bans. So I was probably pinged above merely as a courtesy note. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by Vice_regentIMO, admins should not levy any sanctions until the behavior of all users in this dispute has been examined. There is a pattern of behavior of Aman.kumar.goel getting into content disputes and then using this board to have their opponents sanctioned. In fact, Black Kite observed this pattern earlier: "
Statement by Oriental AristocratAKG's own conduct is questionable and they seem to be a serial disruptor. Let's take for example this revert they made. They call other's edit as disruptive editing without assuming good faith and make a revert that removes large chunks of long-standing text without giving any reason. I see that a WP:BOOMERANG is in offing as they clearly show a behavior of someone who's WP:NOTHERE. Oriental Aristocrat (talk) 00:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by Fowler&fowlerI don't know anything about U Saamo, but I have just edited the lead of Two-nation theory and disabused it of its exceptionally deliberate and deep-rooted pro-India-POV, and by that I mean a pro-India slant that is nowhere to be found in the scholarly consensus. It was so deliberate and so pervasive that I was left aghast. Whatever U Saamo's antecedents maybe, removing POV from a toxic Wikipedia article should not be considered a violation of a topic ban. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning USaamo
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Saucysalsa30
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Saucysalsa30
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:07, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Saucysalsa30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 or Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 18:37, 29 October 2022: Revert 1.
- 21:58, 29 October 2022: Revert 2.
- 23:01, 29 October 2022: Revert 3.
- 03:09, 27 October 2022: Talk page comments that may run afoul of WP:BLP.
As explained in full at BLP/N, Saucysalsa30 reverted three times in less than 24 hours to accuse Vermont Democrat Peter Galbraith (who sought the gubernatorial nomination in 2016) of singlehandedly concocting ("his claim of"
) additional Iraqi chemical attacks on Kurdish civilians following the end of the Iran–Iraq War (during Galbraith's tenure on the United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations), but "Despite Galbraith's claim, physicians from the United Nations, International Red Cross, and Turkey did not find any evidence of chemically inflicted wounds."
Saucysalsa30's reverts actively removed the subject's direct response to this accusation and incorrectly portrayed Galbraith as the only source for the chemical attacks reported. Absent a consensus on whether (and how) to include criticism of Galbraith's report, I believe that the material should be excluded per our BLP policy, as I explained on the talk page—not edit warred in over and over and over again.
Meanwhile, at Talk:Peter Galbraith (albeit prior to being notified of the AP2 sanctions), Saucysalsa30 made additional unsourced claims that Galbraith acted as a "controversial politician making a claim and attempting legislative action on something that wasn't true to push his long-running political agenda that he would eventually and profoundly benefit from financially", which heightened my BLP concerns. Furthermore, Saucysalsa30 incorrectly labelled my own edits to the article as "vandalism" and "disruptive editing."
To me, this behavior is unacceptable in any article that falls within a DS topic area. And, while I drafted this as an AP2 complaint, I doubt that the Kurds and Kurdistan topic area benefits by having an editor who incorrectly states that only 100 people died in the Halabja massacre (which is not consistent with declassified Iraqi military intelligence documents), or that the Anfal campaign was "made up" by Kanan Makiya (citing a source that directly, repeatedly contradicts this assertion).
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 18:09, 29 November 2020: Blocked 60 hours by Drmies for edit warring following a BOOMERANG at WP:AN3.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above, as well as these diffs: [34], [35].
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Saucysalsa30 incorrectly states that this diff constitutes a formal warning to stop WP:HOUNDING him from EvergreenFir. However, the note, which does not mention HOUNDING, concerned a dispute at just one article (Racism in the Arab world), whereas "Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia."
Furthermore, the context is very different from what Saucysalsa30 describes: At the exact same timestamp (23:41, 31 January 2021) EvergreenFir left identical warning messages on both of our talk pages ([36], [37]) advising both Saucysalsa30 and myself "to WP:DISENGAGE either from that page or from interactions with that editor."
Saucysalsa30 responded to EvergreenFir's message with a lengthy tirade accusing me of "slander,"
prompting EvergreenFir to post a second, more forceful warning at User talk:Saucysalsa30 at 05:39, 1 February 2021. It seems evident that Saucysalsa30 frequently misstates or exaggerates what diffs (and other sources) say—something that was recently noted by several editors at ANI. For example, Praxidicae referred to Saucysalsa30's "greatly exaggerated claims," while Drmies pointed out: "That diff doesn't say what you want it to say. It's really simple. ... And you are either willfully misrepresenting me or you don't get it."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- While irrelevant to Saucysalsa30's disruptive editing at Peter Galbraith, the claim that Qahramani44 or I edit-warred to reinstate a WP:COPYVIO at Ba'athism in early 2021 is incorrect. In actuality, a COPYVIO was identified by Saucysalsa30, Qahramani44 rewrote the text, and Berrely incorrectly stated that the issue had not been resolved. However, Berrely quickly corrected his mistake: "Qahramani44, apologies, I was looking at the edit summary of the previous diff and got confused. I have reinstated the edit." Berrely's self-revert should have been the end of it, but Saucysalsa30 continued to incorrectly insist that "Berrely: You were right the first time, as the content still contains some copyright violation," citing this as justification for additional reverts.
- As this thread makes clear, EvergreenFir did not consider Saucysalsa30 to be
"on equal footing"
with Qahramani44 and myself at the time. - Saucysalsa30's description of HandThatFeeds as an administrator is incorrect; the latter's userpage states
"This user is not an administrator and has no desire to be one."
TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Saucysalsa30
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Saucysalsa30
The last paragraph is false accusations and he had also hounded me on Anfal page, where he spent days bludgeoning and attacking multiple users when consensus and sourcing was against him. His first edit in that Talk page was to attack me with similar misrepresentations/insults, which I and others refuted him on such as this[38].
TheTimesAreAChanging made this request right after an edit with personal attacks and falsities about me, including the very first sentence[39]: "Saucysalsa30 has a reputation as a remarkably extreme pro-Iraqi Ba'th Party partisan editor"
. I have no such "reputation", this is a WP:PA violation.
While he's WP:HOUNDING/attacked me in the past and an admin gave him a formal warning to stop doing so, in this latest instance, TheTimesAreAChanging followed me to an article where he had no prior activity, and engaged me in his edit summaries. He noticed on 10/27 I had activity on Peter Galbraith [40] in which I fixed failed-verification/OR/BLP violations, and explained my changes in the Talk page with sources. His edit summaries comprised false accusations/attacks and OR, which I refuted in the Talk page.
Contrary to the claim, TheTimesAreAChanging started edit warring, with his first edit on the article being a partial revert, and made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours.
- Revert1: 08:18, 29 October 2022: Partial revert of my edit with a false accusation/attacks in the edit summary
- Revert2: 21:22, 29 October 2022: Full revert by TTAAC
- Revert3: 22:45, 29 October 2022: Reverting all additions I made to the article
He did not bother to explain his changes in the Talk page, like I had, demonstrating an unwillingness to build consensus.
This accusation by TheTimes is false: Saucysalsa30 made additional unsourced claims that Galbraith acted as ...
and he deliberately misrepresents it by leaving out the last part of the quote: ", already noted in this Talk page and article."
[41] It's clear that TheTimes' didn't read Talk page and article before making this accusation. Galbraith's controversial relationship with and financial benefits from Iraqi Kurdish groups was discussed in two Talk page sections, and there's a section on the article about it.
TheTimes' other accusation is wrong. I never said Galbraith "singlehandedly concocted it", and his embellishment demonstrates the deceptiveness of his request. Galbraith drafted a bill making the claim he championed before the US government. Saying "his claim" is correct. Here is a definition of "claim". Galbraith made a statement that something was true, with the addition of not being proven, and introduced legislation in the US government.
TheTimesAreAChanging had been indefinitely blocked before on the topic of American politics[42] for disruptive editing and not gaining consensus, and in this case he did not seek consensus either. He was also blocked for violating the topic ban. He later requested for it to be lifted, and given his continued disruptive behavior on Peter Galbraith and other articles the the original topic ban was for, it appears justified to reinstate it. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
In his addendum[43], TheTimesAreAChanging admits to being warned by EvergreenFir to WP:DISENGAGE from me yet has still hounded and engaged me on Wikipedia multiple times since then as I proved. In fact, he had hounded me in that very situation in which EvergreenFir had to intervene. On Jan 19-20, 2021, TheTimesAreAChanging and another editor Qahramani44 stalked me, immediately following an unrelated content dispute, over to Racism in the Arab world and Ba'athism where I had just a few days earlier fixed copyvio and other issues. TTAAC had no prior activity on the first article/Talk page, and only previously had a few sporadic unilateral reverts on the second. Qahramani44 had no prior edits on either article/Talk page. Here is my initial diff on Racism in the Arab world [44]. Qahramani44's first edit on the page [45] and TTAAC's first edit [46] came only after mine, and they made a number of Talk page comments directed at me and edit warring following that. EvergreenFir had to intervene, removing TTAAC's last Talk page comment and telling him to "Stop the bullshit". TTAAC defiantly reverted it[47] calling EvergreenFir's actions "wildly inappropriate". EvergreenFir re-reverted this[48] and temporarily protected the article.[49]
The story on Ba'athism is the same. I made my first edit [50]. TheTimesAreAChanging's edit[51] and Qahramani44's[52] stalked me to this article too, with more comments and edit warring to follow by them like in the other article. EvergreenFir intervened here too temporarily protecting the article[53] and EvergreenFir agreed with the copyvio I originally fixed when attempt to re-introduce it was made.[54]
Uninvolved editors have politely asked TTAAC to stop harassing me and other editors, such as [55][56][57][58] In one example, admin HandThatFeeds had to correct TTAAC's false charges against an editor multiple times: "Why are you using the “tenacious hacks” comment to rebut GregKaye’s statement that (sic) you are the first person to accuse them of tendentious editing? Are you not understanding the difference in those words and conflating their use of them with your accusation of their behavior?" and "I think you’re misreading GregKay’s statements. ... Nothing in those quotes is worthy of sanction."
In an attempt to defend himself in an ANI section about his conduct, he falsely accused me of making a real-world threat/crime in August 2022, claiming that I somehow know his address and sending him "fan mail" making a threat. He got the dates wrong in this ridiculous accusation too; his attacking me came in January 2021 (EvergreenFir intervention case), not March 2021 as he falsely states where I had only 2 unrelated edits[59][60], so his "during the height of our previous dispute"
is a proven false statement. TTAAC's accusation was elevated to ArbCom by the admin Barkeep49[61][62][63][64], where it was presumably thrown out as a ludicrously false accusation. At this point, his false accusation about me making of real-world threat is an egregious WP:PA violation. (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Extra note: Repeatedly, TheTimesAreAChanging casts false aspersions based on not understanding what words mean. Like his previously noted confusion about the word "claim", and his accusations refuted by HandThatFeeds, he doesn't know the definition of the word "slander", which he believes only means making legal threats[65], of which I've never done. Here's the definition:
"the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation"
. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:08, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding [66]: There's still no defense from TheTimesAreAChanging has for the proven fact that he very deliberately stalked and attacked me and engaged in disruptive behavior on multiple instances, such as in January 2021, August 2022, and most recently in October 2022, as I proved above, among other occasions not detailed here.
- TheTimesAreAChanging's stalking, false accusations, refusal to engage in consensus building and constructive Talk page discussion, and personal attacks on Peter Galbraith has already been proven since my first statement section[67]. His continued attempt at shifting blame instead of explaining his disruptive behavior is because he knows he did wrong. Let's recall the situation on Peter Galbraith happened because TheTimes chose to stalk and harass me in the first place.
- TheTimesAreAChanging's latest claim is wrong. As I already provided above, EvergreenFir did take my side and reverted Qahramani44 for re-introducing a copyright violation [68]. Quoting EvergreenFir from Feb 1, 2021:
"(Undid revision 1004094635 by Qahramani44 (talk) with tweaks. WP:STATUSQUO had copyvio issues. These two versions are very similar, but i tweaked it a bit. Qahramani44 you are party to this dispute and edit war. Please do not continue warring)"
Berrely is not an admin and was an uninvolved editor who was misled by Qahramani44's erroneous statement. Yes, you are correct in that I fixed Berrely's misled error which he made on Jan 19[69]. EvergreenFir agreed with me that it was a copyright violation because on Feb 1, the end result on this whole situation was EvergreenFir removing the copyright vio, putting to rest Qahramani44's and TTAAC's disruption and Berrely's misled error.[70] EvergreenFir would not have done that if TTAAC's and Qahramani44's editing was not disruptive. I was correct in removing a copyright violation.
- In that case, it's good that HandThatFeeds is not an admin. It means someone with no responsibility to do so proved in detail that TTAAC was making false accusations against a good editor with the ANI report, even telling TTAAC to
"Just drop this diversion"
.[71] They weren't the only one, either. Admins didn't appear to bother with TTAAC's report because it was based on false representations and accusations, and no action was taken against GregKaye. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 06:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 1 to @Acroterion and other admins: The above statement is now 500 words according to wordcounttools.com. Kindly requesting to go above 500 words to point out other disruptive editing and conduct and casting false aspersions by TheTimesAreAChanging on Peter Galbraith and other articles he mentions such as Anfal campaign, and pointing out other recent misconduct against me personally like his ludicrous and self-disproving accusation of real-life threats in an ANI discussion on his disruptive editing and personal attacks? Also, I just noticed the below clarifying comment to ParadiseChronicle had been moved here, which it wasn't here originally.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 2 to admins: With this 'addendum'[72] added by TheTimesAreAChanging, he has increased his request to 708 words, far past the 500 word limit, when copying everything under "Request concerning Saucysalsa30" to the end of the added content. Like proven of his other accusations, these are likewise deceitful misrepresentations and fluff). Even if we go with the "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy" and under, it's still 623 words. Only if we omit the diffs and other information critical to the statement, it gets close to 500). Saucysalsa30 (talk) 23:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 3 to @Acroterion: Thanks for your response. In addition to demonstrating I was hounded/harassed on 2 separate articles in the case EvergreenFir had to intervene in the first place, I took the opportunity to point out a false accusation that TheTimesAreAChanging made against me in August 2022 that I made real-world threat/crime against him. He's yet to receive consequence for this excessive WP:PA violation) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- It appears my Note 3 practically overlapped with Acroterion's, so I missed their response before publishing. Regarding [73], thanks for clearing that up. This would mean that other than the Peter Galbraith issue, which I've demonstrated TTAAC hounded me on, none of his other charges are relevant seeing as they had already been brought up by TTAAC in relevant ANI sections. I refuted his misrepresentations in any case. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 3 to @Acroterion: Thanks for your response. In addition to demonstrating I was hounded/harassed on 2 separate articles in the case EvergreenFir had to intervene in the first place, I took the opportunity to point out a false accusation that TheTimesAreAChanging made against me in August 2022 that I made real-world threat/crime against him. He's yet to receive consequence for this excessive WP:PA violation) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 4 to @Acroterion: Re [74]: With Barkeep49's input (thanks Barkeep!)[75], it appears ArbCom hadn't considered it in the first place, not being at their level of action. Even if it is put aside despite the gravity of such a lie (one that could carry legal charges against me given the false accusation describes criminal offense) and severe WP:PA violation this false accusation entails, it is still evidence of extreme dishonesty. For clarification and follow-up, would you suggest that I report the false accusation to ANI given it wasn't taken up at ArbCom's level after all? Thanks.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 5 re @Paradise Chronicle: Unfortunately, Paradise Chronicle is also guilty of WP:HOUNDING me on Peter Galbraith, with their only edit there[76] being made right after I had activity on the page, within a few hours of this AE request being created[77], and in less than 2 hours of my first response on this AE request.[78]. PC is wrong in saying "no-one opposed it" about the change he mentions in his statement, seeing how I kindly asked for Buidhe's approval[79] on their re-introducing poor content, and it didn't have better contextualization as P.C. claimed. Waiting on a response from buidhe and the hope that PC would fix their error, I didn't respond further. This was only one change of many made by PC on the article which were unilateral, and the others had no Talk discussion by PC regarding including or re-inclusion content. To give just a few of many examples of POV and/or unilateral edits on Anfal campaign (not including other articles PC makes edits on despite being formally warned on the topic of Kurds and Kurdistan:[80][81][82]. PC's warning[83] was for
"Paradise Chronicle is warned to avoid casting aspersions and repeating similar uncollegial conduct in the future."
It is unfortunate that PC has not heeded by these warnings as shown in this AE request and on Anfal campaign, and again, I am not mentioning other articles that PC edits on in this topic area in the same manner). Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:06, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 5 re @Paradise Chronicle: Unfortunately, Paradise Chronicle is also guilty of WP:HOUNDING me on Peter Galbraith, with their only edit there[76] being made right after I had activity on the page, within a few hours of this AE request being created[77], and in less than 2 hours of my first response on this AE request.[78]. PC is wrong in saying "no-one opposed it" about the change he mentions in his statement, seeing how I kindly asked for Buidhe's approval[79] on their re-introducing poor content, and it didn't have better contextualization as P.C. claimed. Waiting on a response from buidhe and the hope that PC would fix their error, I didn't respond further. This was only one change of many made by PC on the article which were unilateral, and the others had no Talk discussion by PC regarding including or re-inclusion content. To give just a few of many examples of POV and/or unilateral edits on Anfal campaign (not including other articles PC makes edits on despite being formally warned on the topic of Kurds and Kurdistan:[80][81][82]. PC's warning[83] was for
- (Note 6 to @Acroterion: Thanks for your response! I will take no further action then on that. I appreciate Barkeep49 having taken the initiative even if he had removed the whole ANI section which included other conduct violations by TTAAC. These kinds of personal attacks are not uncommon for TTAAC, as I gave a few diffs including in my first statement regarding the Peter Galbraith issue, the unacceptable insult "Saucysalsa30 has a reputation as a remarkably extreme pro-Iraqi Ba'th Party partisan editor". His last block[84] had also been for personal attacks, on a rare occasion that an editor had challenged his disruptive editing. There's other cases of him calling me a child and other insults for no good reason, but I'll keep it recent. I will note for clarity that TTAAC has already brought up all (refuted) accusations except the current Peter Galbraith matter before in ANI and other boards. In staying current, we have a case then just in the last week where he 1) hounded/harassed me, 2) made direct insults, 3) cast false aspersions, 4) disruptive editing including edit warring.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Note 7 re[85] I was not the first to bring up old disagreements, but only did so because 1) I will address misrepresentations, personal attacks, and aspersions (most of the 'tendentiousness' here and on those articles), and 2) it demonstrates here that TTAAC is not a editor who suddenly came across me, but someone who has actively harassed me over a long period of time. There isn't such tendentiousness with other editors. In the two most recent instances as already proven: in the first, consensus, sourcing, neutrality were overwhelmingly on my side against TTAAC which he didn't take kindly, and in the second (Galbraith), I provided reliable, balanced sourcing and explanation (not a REDFLAG bibliographical note contradicted by any books/articles on the topic), pointed out OR+BLP violations that even TTAAC agreed with most, but I was still stalked and insulted in both cases because TTAAC didn't like that.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Note 8 re:[86] Thanks for your response Swarm, but it appears there's a misunderstanding, as I didn't make a false claim. This[87] and telling him to "Stop the bullshit" by an admin or block for personal attacks isn't a false claim. If you're referring to HandThatFeeds, it's new to me that non-admins could have stylized usernames (I've only seen admins have those), so that was an error on my part, not a false claim, and does not change that an uninvolved editor repeatedly refuted TTAAC for making false accusations against GregKaye, as he does here. I proved and demonstrated multiple examples of stalking and harassment across multiple articles with diffs. This includes the most recent case on Peter Galbraith, which aside from the demonstrated hounding me a couple days after my edits on an article TTAAC had no prior activity, included blatant personal attacks and casting aspersions in edit summaries such as[88].
- For the record in case this was missed earlier, I didn't "introduce" calling Galbraith a "liar" or a "conflict of interest" as TTAAC falsely claimed in this AE section and in this edit summary[89], which I'd disproven earlier here. I didn't add or edit anything related to the "Oil controversy" section, which describes Galbraith's conflict of interest and which has been there for over a decade, that TTAAC accuses me of in that edit summary. TTAAC is misleading with "controversial politician making a claim..." comment because I made that in the Talk page not the article as he implies, and there's a whole well-sourced section about it in the article. You can see me explain that clearly here[90], summarized with
"This has already been talked about in a couple other Talk sections too and has been in the article and sourced since the 2000s."
. Therefore, the premise laid out by TTAAC is false as I have not introduced such a matter as alleged. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 10:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by RAN1
I'm only filing this statement since I DS-alerted Saucysalsa30 (in fact, my alert is the only one that appears in the DS tag search). I only became aware of Saucysalsa30's actions through TTAAC's BLP post. The post ran long, so I didn't look through any of the 10+ diffs in it, and assumed this was a recent development and that Saucysalsa30 hadn't been alerted before today. I researched the relevant citation, verified it and reverted Saucysalsa30 because they claimed the material failed verification before their edit summary war with TTAAC. I then alerted both them and TTAAC on the Kurds DS. I didn't think there would be a prior deleted notice if this was at BLPN, so I didn't see Saucysalsa30 had been alerted 3 months ago until after this AE section showed up in my watchlist. RAN1 (talk) 02:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- @RAN1 Just want to point out for the sake of balance that TheTimesAreAChanging received the same alert before from the same editor ParadiseChronicle on July 31. [91] Saucysalsa30 (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Paradise Chronicle
As I have been mentioned I want to explain a bit. I gave the DS awareness note on Kurds and Kurdistan to both editors here and here as they appear to have an issue in the topic area and if only one knows about the DS the other editor might be surprised (blocked, TB'd) that there apply different rules for the topic area than in the "normal" wikipedia.
That said I believe the issue escalated into an ArbCom case per email in which case some Admins might be more familiar with the issue between the two.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
On the AE side for Kurds and Kurdistan. I also have noticed that Saucysalsa30 is rather doubtful of Kurdish victims during the Halabja chemical attack or during the Al Anfal campaign. For the Admins and also the reporting and discussing editors sake I'd say its more efficient to strongly warn (once more and a temporary block is in place) them for bludgeoning and disruptive editing as their numerous talk page edits are often of 1000s of bytes with a lot of text not really on the topic and to produce and read the diffs is rather a tiring work.
At Peter Galbraith they are number 1 Here and assembled a 30% share of added content in 3 days.
and at Al Anfal they are way off the top here with a ca. 2/3 share of added content in the entire existence of the article within less than 2 months. This is way more than all editors together in the top 10 combined.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Saucysalsa30, yes I meant to link to the talk pages. Talk page edits is what WP:BLUDGEON is about. To find your argument which is at best one or two lines within the several WP:WALLOFTEXTs doesn't help to find consensus. Read WP:WALLOFTEXT, its very descriptive of your talk page edits.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- In the last phrase of their answer to me, there is a good example for the editing of Saucysalsa30. Not an issue in the current discussion they bring an edit of me. For what, lack of consensus? I opened discussion on it the same day of my edit and no-one opposed it. The edit was on the existence and location of detention camps and the opened discussion included an invitation to reword the section. Saucysalsa30 answered in the discussion but didn't change anything. And now I have searched diffs and texted for probably about half an hour for an answer on 1 phrase in 1 of their WALLOFTEXT. Imagine dealing with several phrases in about 30 WALLOFTEXTS by Saucysalsa30.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- For anyone who reads the two edits above and doesn't know why I wrote it, I want to point out that my two edits above (not the first one) were an answer to this edit which Saucysalsa30 removed the same day.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- If this accusations of Saucysalsa30 are going to get an issue, let me know, but I am not going to invest time into answering to an edit that a few hours later gets withdrawn.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- For anyone who reads the two edits above and doesn't know why I wrote it, I want to point out that my two edits above (not the first one) were an answer to this edit which Saucysalsa30 removed the same day.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- In the last phrase of their answer to me, there is a good example for the editing of Saucysalsa30. Not an issue in the current discussion they bring an edit of me. For what, lack of consensus? I opened discussion on it the same day of my edit and no-one opposed it. The edit was on the existence and location of detention camps and the opened discussion included an invitation to reword the section. Saucysalsa30 answered in the discussion but didn't change anything. And now I have searched diffs and texted for probably about half an hour for an answer on 1 phrase in 1 of their WALLOFTEXT. Imagine dealing with several phrases in about 30 WALLOFTEXTS by Saucysalsa30.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Result concerning Saucysalsa30
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Saucysalsa30: A 1500+ word response is not even close to 500, and permission to exceed limits should be requested first, not ignored and blown through. Please reduce your comments to the required limits, or your comments may be truncated. Verbosity is not a virtue, and your history of talkpage discussions includes walls of text that are not appropriate in this venue. Acroterion (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Saucysalsa: yes, because they've replied. So can you, just keep it short and to the point, and please resist the temptation to gradually add back what you removed. Part of the complaint involves your tendency to bludgeon discussions, which will not be tolerated here. Acroterion (talk) 22:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Unless @Barkeep49: has anything that they can mention concerning the "fan mail" allegations, I'm going to set that aside as old news, now resolved, that was within the remit of the arbitrators, not this noticeboard. It does not appear to be directly germane to the issue at hand. Acroterion (talk) 02:15, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- If T&S and arbitrators did not take action in August, it's not going to happen here. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I would have liked to see arbcom take action in this case owing to the sensitive evidence but the general opinion of other arbs seemed to be that the incident did not rise to the level of ArbCom action. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. Since private evidence can’t be submitted or considered here, the “fan mail” issue must be set aside. Acroterion (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Response to Saucysalsa30's latest note: ANI is not an appropriate place to discuss anything that involves private information, and is for current, ongoing problems that require immediate attention, not things that happened in August. If the arbs declined to act, then the subject is closed, as it must be here. Please do not litigate that issue here or anywhere else, I am focused on conduct on the relevant topic areas. I am reviewing the other material, please resist the urge to enlarge on the dispute. Acroterion (talk) 12:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. Since private evidence can’t be submitted or considered here, the “fan mail” issue must be set aside. Acroterion (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I would have liked to see arbcom take action in this case owing to the sensitive evidence but the general opinion of other arbs seemed to be that the incident did not rise to the level of ArbCom action. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- If T&S and arbitrators did not take action in August, it's not going to happen here. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- My general impression on reading through the extremely lengthy talkpage discussions and diffs is that there is a thread of WP:IDHT, which extends to this discussion, in which Saucysalsa is focused on portraying other editors as aggressors or rehashing old disagreements after being advised to stop. The sheer volume of words is indicative of a tendency to bludgeon discussions, even here. I can't say that either TTAAC or Saucysalsa30 have been shining examples of civility or righteous conduct, but I'm seeing a consistent thread of tendentiousness in Saucysalsa's overall conduct with respect to Iraqi attacks on Kurds and with respect to Galbraith. Acroterion (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Suacuysalsa's insistence on attacking the source of the complaint rather than responding to its substance, together with their tendentious behavior in the subject area and in this discussion, lead me to conclude that a topic ban, broadly construed, on Kurdistan-related topics is needed to deal with their consistent battleground conduct. This includes Peter Galbraith, Iraqi use of chemical weapons, and related matters. I'm setting the topic ban for six months. Acroterion (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- I read all that and reached the same conclusions as Acro. Report seems legitimate and actionable, and SS’s extreme bludgeoning is largely unrelated. Instead, they argue that they are a victim and they are being harassed by the OP, and falsely claim that OP has been warned for that. This was highly misleading, and the misleading, attacking, bludgeoning and disrupting of the process here appears to be a reflection of the problem. ~Swarm~ {sting} 02:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Toa Nidhiki05
Toa Nidhiki05 is indefinitely topic banned from post-1992 American politics --Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:07, 5 November 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Toa Nidhiki05
Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it. ––FormalDude (talk) 12:32, 30 October 2022 (UTC) More issues
Discussion concerning Toa Nidhiki05Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Toa Nidhiki05What a ludicrous report. There’s no consensus for this edit (numerous others have rejected it), as others have noted, and more importantly it isn’t backed up. I should be a bit nicer, but frankly my patience for regurgitation of base hyperpartisan talking points (which both FormalDude and Viriditas have insisted on making}} to justify inflammatory and unproductive edits is minimal. Repeated claims like “this is a fact” while citing to left-wing think tanks are not what I’d consider to be productive discussions. What's abundantly clear is that FormalDude either does not understand that partisan think tanks are not reputable sources of fact, or he doesn't care. And now it’s clear that, rather than actually present quality referencing or engaging, FormalDude just wants to remove me. This case should be summarily closed and returned to the talk page. For some examples of what's been going on on the page, which includes less-than-polite discussion from both sides.
All of this because some editors object to a hyperlink in a subheading. It's clear this discussion has become heated, but FormalDude's report here is simply not helpful. At all. I urge people to actually look at the edits FormalDude has posted and see what they are responses to. We're here to build an encyclopedia - not to regurgitate the opinions of left-wing think tanks as if they are the light and truth and all that is good and beautiful in the world. We would not use the Heritage Foundation or the Cato Institute or Prager University to claim that Democrats have bad policy, nor should we. All I ask is the same thing be applied both ways. Toa Nidhiki05 12:44, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Reading the arbitration remarks - and having cooled down a bit - I can't disagree that my primary issue in this topic area is reverting too often. I imagine this is frustrating for everyone involved. That being said, I have a long history of work in the AP2 area; my barstars include creating the 2010 United States state legislative elections article (a series I should continue), policing the Center for Immigration Studies and John Tanton articles (where racist trolls repeatedly attempt to whitewash ties to white nationalists and eugenicists), and "Herculean labours nominating ancient, ill-sourced articles on non-notable political parties and groups for deletion". I also engage in the creation of electoral maps, routine cleanup, and policing the addition of entries on endorsements, and all sorts of routine anti-vandalism efforts across a field where this is a frequent issue. If the issue here is edit warring, wouldn't a 1RR or 0RR sanction (with exceptions for vandalism) be more appropriate? This would enable me to continue the things widely regarded as productive, while cutting out the problem area. Toa Nidhiki05 01:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Response to FormalDude - Thie RfC was started at the behest of other editors, who suggested it would be a good idea. Multiple other users said it should be started, and anyone could do it - I chose to do so because nobody else did, and this should resolve this issue permanently, meaning an end to this lengthy discussion. I fail to see how this is disruptive, and several other editors seem to agree - in fact, already several other editors who had not previously engaged in the discussion already have. That's a good thing! Toa Nidhiki05 02:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC) Black Kite, I would recommend you read MOS:WEASEL. Wikipedia policy tends to point against broad, unsupported claims like "widely regarded as", especially when sources don't support them - so narrowing it to what the source does say is common-sense. The reason I did not include the claim about "voters" is that it's rather vague; "voters" is, broadly, too large a group of people. It's akin to saying that "people" like something, whereas "celebrities and activists" is more specific. If you disagree, you are welcome to change or modify it, or to discuss it on the talk page, and I'd invite you to do so. I'll also note that the source says negative things about Abrams that I did not add - it says, for example, that Republican critics regard her as divisive (who would have imagined that political opponents regard their political opponent in negative terms?), that some Democrats are uncomfortable with her personal ambition, and that some Black Democrats dislike her "disruptive" influence on the Democratic establishment in Georgia. I didn't add any of these to the article of lead - in fact, I didn't add anything negative about Abrams at all in my edit! I did not make this edit to prove that "'ordinary people' didn't credit Abrams" - in fact, I didn't make this edit to prove anything. I made the edit because the existing content was unsupported by the sources listed. I would invite you to assume good faith in the future rather than casting aspersions or assuming you can read my mind. Toa Nidhiki05 13:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Quick response to SPECIFICO - I don’t believe I’ve engaged in any edit warring on the Stacey Abrams article, and I’m extensively discussing it on the talk page while there are probably a dozen or so reverts going around on main over the last few days. This is an extremely contentious discussion, apparently, and I trying hard to keep my cool on the talk page. In the last 24 hours, however, SPEFICIO is at 3 reverts ([96] [97] [98]). I find it a bit frustrating to be accused of edit warring by someone who is more involved than myself. Toa Nidhiki05 22:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC) Some more context: Generalrelative, another user involved in the dispute there and who has commented here, is also at 3 reverts, and 4 or 5 over the last two days ([99] [100] [101] [102]). Once again, I think the situation on these pages is fairly volatile, and I'll do my best to bring the volume down. Toa Nidhiki05 00:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Black Kite, I am not edit warring and I would suggest you retract that statement. I have reverted exactly once on the Stacey Abrams page in the last 3 days - in fact, I've only edited the page 4 times this month, far less than the dozens of edits (many of them reverts) by other involved editors. The one revert I have made in the last three days was this edit, which reverted an addition by Generalrelative that synthesized reliable sources. This violates Wikipedia policy; you can't combine multiple sources to make a claim that neither makes. I did not revert Generalrelative's subsequent edit, as the content cited ("widely attributed") is reflected in the source itself; this corrected the issue I had, an example of a productive exchange that benefits the encyclopedia. The other edit you cite was not a revert; it was correcting a factual mistake and reflecting what the New York Times source actually says ("Celebrities, activists and voters across Georgia credited Ms. Abrams with moving past her loss). You are an experienced editor, surely you would agree that it is against Wikipedia policy to cite claims that sources don't make, to selectively cite only specific parts of what sources say, or to combine multiple sources to make a claim that neither makes? Additionally, I will once again note that Black Kite has not engaged in this discussion at all, either on Talk:Stacey Abrams or the BLP noticeboard thread, where I have engaged - and am engaging in - lengthy discussions on the page and policy in general. Toa Nidhiki05 13:47, 4 November 2022 (UTC) Last I checked, SPECIFICO, there's no policy that says BLPs can only present subjects in a positive light, especially for a subject as serious as election denial. Toa Nidhiki05 22:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by The Four DeucesThe edits that Toa responded to were outrageous suggestions, so their edits calling them that was an accurate response. For example, in the first example presented,[103] Toa was responding to a proposal that the lead for Republican Party (United States) should be changed to begin, "The Republican Party is a far right, anti-democratic, authoritarian, pro-Russia political party that believes that one person, one vote should be repealed by a constitutional amendment." (Viriditas 03:32, 27 October 2022) While Viriditas may have been expressing a valid opinion that would be acceptable in some fora, obviously the tone and emphasis would be inappropriate for Wikipedia. Even for articles about far right parties, the phrasing is more nuanced. Viriditas was trolling and Toa's replies should be seen in that context. There should be some way to stop that so that discussions remain constructive. While there's a vague line between legitimate edit proposals and trolling, Viriditas has crossed it and their edits should have been included in this report. Incidentally, RationalWiki is not a "fringe website," but a respected source that debunks pseudoscience and its supporters. TFD (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Comment by GoodDayWith the 2022 US mid-term elections just days away & the possibility of Trump becoming the 2024 Republican presidential nominee? Perhaps, administrators should keep a closer eye on the aforementioned discussion at the Republican Party's talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 15:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Letting administrators know. I've advised Toa 'not' to edit Abrams' page & to concentrate on that BLP's talkpage, instead. I understand how frustrating these things can be & so I believe a gentler approach is best. GoodDay (talk) 14:08, 1 November 2022 (UTC) FWIW - Abrams' discussion has moved to the WP:BLPN board. GoodDay (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Recommend administrators hold off from any decision, until after November 8, 2022. The US is in the last week of its mid-terms campaign & emotions can get heightened. Again patients & a gentle approach is best. GoodDay (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC) @SPECIFICO:, The decision is up to the administrators, not me. They will decide on what is best. GoodDay (talk) 21:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by AndrevanI am involved in some of the disputes with this user but I must agree they are not consistently civil and frequently make borderline or outright personal attacks. "Two wrongs don't make a right." This user frequently violates WP:AGF and makes statements questioning the impartiality or competence of editors. This user exhibits an WP:OWNership mentality about their articles that they patrol or contribute to about politics, frequently reverting without discussion with an edit warrior mentality. Their rationales are often terse such as "not an improvement" or no reason given. This user should be sanctioned. Andre🚐 16:21, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by NableezyThe line The Republican Party is a far right, anti-democratic, authoritarian, pro-Russia political party that believes that one person, one vote should be repealed by a constitutional amendment was not a serious proposal, and the person who said that said as much. That said, talk pages are for discussing the topic of the article, not bantering back and forth and seeing which one can make the silliest argument with a straight face. That this generated an equivalently absurd response reminds me of the adage on playing stupid games. Suggest closing this with a reminder to all parties what the purpose of a talk page is. nableezy - 16:32, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The edit-warring while at AE is mind-bogglingly lacking in awareness. Thats 1, 2, 3 reverts just outside of 24 hours, a few days after the edit-war in the same article on October 25. Certainly not the only user edit-warring, but the please do not edit war edit summaries while edit-warring is a bit too rich. How do yall not get the process here, edit is disagreed on stop and get consensus on the talk page. In the highly likely event that the people edit-warring cannot reach a consensus, open an RFC. In the highly likely event that the users involved do not agree on the consensus of the RFC, request a formal closure. Rinse and repeat. Edit-warring has always been a topic-bannable offense, doing it while at AE is just asking for it. nableezy - 17:45, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by Black KiteI am not a regular editor in the AP2 area, but I am not going to post in the uninvolved admin section here either as I have argued with T05 before over their obviously POV editing. I have noted them having serious problems with Democratic female politicians of colour (see their very extensive edits to shoehorn anything negative into Ilhan Omar, Stacey Abrams and Karine Jean-Pierre - the latter article being one that they were blocked for personal attacks on other editors in June this year). Oddly, that problem doesn't extend to Republican female politicians (i.e. Mayra Flores ). A significant number of their other edits are bludgeoning debates, and not really caring about NPA whilst they're doing it [108]. A significant number of their edits are reverts, or have been reverted themselves, which suggests that they are not following WP:BRD. It is probably time that an AP2 ban arrived at this editor's door. Black Kite (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
More issues
And still ...... edit-warring to get the most negative slant possible on the same BLP. [109] [110]. Black Kite (talk) 13:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by SpringeeI'm certainly involved in this debate. I think it would be best if everyone toned things down a few notches. Personalizing these debates isn't helpful and neither are the over the top comments that can come across as trolling. Tongue in cheek the best thing to do would be lock the page until after the 2022 elections in just over a week. Springee (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2022 (UTC) I do think some of the reverts should be seen in context. Until very recently there was not a consensus for the changes various editors are making. What we have is a conflict between Toa enforcing what they, rightly saw as a NOCON state of the discussion, and other editors deciding they were right in "winning" an edit war because there were more "supports" vs "opposes". Those supporting the change should have just waited until it was a clear CONSENSUS. That doesn't excuse excessive reverting but an editor who restores a new, disputed change without consensus is also violating policy. Toa needs to tone it down but those who were restoring when consensus hadn't been established should also note their own part in escalating this issue. Springee (talk) 19:51, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Vanamonde93, I think you might not be giving the 1RR restriction enough of a chance. You are correct, such a restriction doesn't prevent one from going to the talk page and saying, "You're a jerk Dent. A complete kneebiter." However, since the ability to actually change the article in question is curtailed it ends up creating two positives. First, no edit warring. Second, it does force one to think more carefully about one's arguments. Sure, you can try to bludgeon the discussion but others can simply ignore you since you can't "revert to win". If I'm frustrated with your newest edit, I revert it. You say I'm wrong and revert my edit and that's it. All I can do is plead my case. If my case isn't good I'm not likely to convince others. The intent of any sanction should be to pick the smallest one that fixes the problem. Hence, we have single page blocks now instead of block or no block. If is warned about civility and gets a 1RR block the message should be clear. I'm sure any ANI complaint after that would be happy to throw on an AP2 if things are still an issue. However, if the 1RR is sufficient and gets Toa to spend more effort on the quality of their arguments, or at least keeping things from being personal, is that sufficient? Toa, I will say, from my own experience, you should always avoid trying to personalize things in any way. Yeah, we all know that calling someone as idiot is not OK. Calling their arguments stupid is also a bad idea since it tends to escalate emotion. Another one which I have some trouble with but can be very powerful... don't use too many words, don't reply to everything (I'm sure some of the editors I've debated are snickering right now). But really, you will actually be more effective at making your point if you slow down and think it out rather than argue too much. I'm certain some will think that is rich coming from me but I'm comparing me to older me :D Springee (talk) 04:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanToa keeps accusing other editors in a personal attack fashion of being partisan, but their own argumentation chooses partisan talking points and spin over what RS say. We are supposed to prioritize the latter, including wording. Toa is forgetting a founding principle here. "Verifiability, not truth" reminds us that personal opinions about what is "true" do not trump what RS tell us. We apply this every single day when we insist on writing "anti-abortion" rather than "pro-life" (which redirects to Anti-abortion movements). We do not adopt the deceptive talking points of those who advocate fringe positions. When RS describe the abortion stance of conservatives, they often say "anti-abortion", and so should we. The GOP talking points and spin are that their voter suppression methods are for the sake of "election security" (based on Trump's big lie of a stolen election). When they close polling places in minority areas, forcing people who don't even own a car to travel long distances to vote in white areas, that's voter suppression, and RS call the GOP's methods "suppression". The GOP knows that minorities tend to vote for Democrats, and that there are fewer registered Republicans than Democrats. If they can make it harder for legitimate, registered, minority voters to vote, they have a better chance at winning, so they do all they can to make it much harder for them to vote. They use myriad methods: gerrymandering, closing polling stations in minority districts, limiting voting hours, voter intimidation, rejecting ballots, and purging voter rolls based on last names that sound minority. The GOP makes minorities jump through hoops not required of their privileged, white, elitist base. We have articles about this, but Toa opposes we even wikilink to our properly-sourced articles. That's a problem. That's what started this mess. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Toa is continuing their edit warring right now. Also templating the regulars with spurious warnings. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by Jayron32
Statement by SPECIFICOToa Nidhiki05 is continuing to edit-war on Stacey Abrams. Also, I would have thought their talk page access would have been included in the block on Republican Party (United States). SPECIFICO talk 11:53, 1 November 2022 (UTC) Regarding Stacey Abrams: TN wrote above I'll do my best to bring the volume down. Meanwhile, it feels like he's been trolling me on my user talk page here. And he's continuing to deny the BLP problem on the article talk page. If there's a TBAN, it should perhaps be a ban from BLP in addition to AP. SPECIFICO talk 00:45, 2 November 2022 (UTC) @GoodDay: That can't be serious -- proposing that the stalemate, prolonged BLP disparagement and negative framing continue on talk/article/noticeboard pages so that our readers land on it when looking for information about election candidates and their positions? This matter needs to be wrapped up as promptly as possible. SPECIFICO talk 21:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by GeneralrelativeJust piping up to say that while there's nothing sancionable in this exchange on Talk:Stacey Abrams, it doesn't bode well if what we're witnessing is Toa Nidhiki05 on their best behavior. Generalrelative (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Toa Nidhiki05
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TheCurrencyGuy
TheCurrencyGuy has been indefed by Tamzin. Unblocking admins should consider a topic ban as part of the unblock conditions --Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning TheCurrencyGuy
On 30 October (before TCG was alerted to the the Troubles DS), TCG added John MacBride (a participant in the Easter Rising) to our list of people who were executed, later reverted by Scolaire who pointed to a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Were the Easter Rising leaders criminals? where it was argued that Easter Rising participants should not be deemed war criminals. However, in the above three edits (all made after TCG was alerted), TCG twice restored their preferred version of the page (revert to first two edits here, to the third edit here) within a few hours, despite intervening reverts by Scolaire and Spelodrach. This should be a case of IDHT, if not of a breach of 1RR. There are also other cases of TCG adding the criminal infobox to Easter Rising participants (which can be found in their contribs), but I will leave them out because they were not yet alerted of DS when those edits were made. I understand that Arbitration is a serious matter, and I hope I didn't err too much in my first enforcement request; I apologize for any wastage of time that this request incurs. Thank you all for your time. NotReallySoroka (talk) 04:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Not applicable.
I would like to fix a ping. @Spleodrach: NotReallySoroka (talk) 04:53, 2 November 2022 (UTC) I have moved "On 30 October... for your time" one section up (under the diffs) and the ping-fixing comment to this section. Thanks. --NotReallySoroka (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2022 (UTC) @Scolaire: In this edit, you did remove MacBride. Thanks, NotReallySoroka (talk) 19:38, 2 November 2022 (UTC) On one hand, TCG declared that they have "abandoned" their account. However, I am inclined to take it as AE flu, since their previous attempt at declaring abandonment (in July) lasted for about a day. For details, please peruse the history of TCG's user page. Thank you. NotReallySoroka (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TheCurrencyGuyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TheCurrencyGuyWhat Scolaire had done was not recategorise but removed the individuals entirely, something Spelodrach did again, somehow implying these people were not executed, I have not altered it since they were retained but shunted into a different category. I added the "criminal conviction" infobox in good faith after noting it on the articles of similar individuals likewise guilty of politically motivated crimes and I considered it an omission. The argument over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Were the Easter Rising leaders criminals? is hard to follow. It is my position that if a person was lawfully executed and whose charge, conviction and execution is a pertinent aspect of their lives then it ought to be included in their infobox and should be supported by the categories the article is listed in. I am unsure whether the charge of treason by "levying war against the government" is technically considered a war crime, But I would have been happy to be advised to simply move them to another section. The heavy handed complete removal of them is what spurred my reversions.
Statement by M.nelsonThe discussion at WT:IE#Were the Easter Rising leaders criminals? is not all that hard to follow - it's clear that there's significant opposition to TheCurrencyGuy's changes, which was apparent before their post-DS alert reverts. Their response here is WP:IDHT - trying to explain why they're right and everyone else in that discussion is wrong. -M.nelson (talk) 09:28, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by The BannerRather concerning is that The CurrencyGuy not only depicted the leaders of the Easter Rising as criminals but also as war criminals (example: [112]) or just branded a fighter as a murderer (example: [113]). The Banner talk 12:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by ScolaireI think this is a bit excessive. 1) three diffs are shown where in fact there were only two reverts: WP:EW defines a revert as "an edit or a series of consecutive edits", so the first two diffs make one revert (two is still too many, but bear with me). 2) Adding John MacBride to the List of people who were executed is a red herring, since it was not a revert. 3) The notice on TheCurrencyGuy's talk page was clearly about the articles where he was editing the infobox – a friendly warning not to revert any of those articles, which he did not. 4) Not having experience in Troubles-related articles, it would not have been obvious to him that List of people who were executed would come under the Troubles ArbCom's remit; that was not made clear in the notice, and NotReallySoroka did not take the trouble to explain that to him. I don't think any action should be taken here. Scolaire (talk) 12:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by SarekOfVulcanIt was pointed out in the thread that by TCG's definition above, Jesus should be listed as a criminal in the infobox and categories. While I don't think action should be taken at this time, he does need to rethink his actions. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:30, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My KenIt appears that TCG has, um... retired. 23:11, 2 November 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning TheCurrencyGuy
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