Talk:Nazi symbolism

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2022

NAZI Symbol must be written as what it is known in history i.e. Hakenkreuz . HOLY SWASTIKA is symbol of well-being in Hinduism. Using it wrongly gives wrong message and insult to one of the oldest civilization on the earth. CHANGE suggested by Ashutosh Pandey. Ashusrk007 (talk) 04:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

•  Not done. Your suggestion ignores the very well established historic usage of the word "swastika" by English language scholars in the 19th century, before Hitler was born. Binksternet (talk) 04:57, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

• Also per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the common English language name for things. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

• I've added a banner above, and an editnotice, similar to those used on Talk:Nazism to deal with requests that Nazism be labelled "far-left". Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Context and adoption of the Swastika

We have had several attempts to give the symbol one of it's earlier names Hakenkreuz (I've just reverted one hence this topic).

Historically the symbol has 'spent' far more time being used in other contexts and with names that have spanned centuries than the very brief period when it was 'appropriated' the Nazi party.

While Swastika is used and named correctly in this article some background to the adoption of the Swastika by Hitler and the Nazis as a central symbol is quite interesting and would, I think, also assist in easing the tensions felt by those who feel the symbol was stolen by the Nazis and is therefore misrepresented.

See for example The Man Who Brought the Swastika to Germany, and How the Nazis Stole It and The Origins of the Swastika

I would write a short section on this but being a sensitive area I invite a more experienced editor to tackle that. If no one else fancies it I will have a go. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 05:57, 16 March 2023 (UTC) I realise some of this is covered elsewhere I think the development of this as a Nazi symbol could do with more coverage here.

My attempt:

THE HISTORY OF THE SWASTIKA

The swastika is an ancient symbol that was in use in many different cultures for at least 5,000 years before Adolf Hitler made it the centerpiece of the Nazi flag. Its present-day use by certain extremist groups promotes hate.

In 1871 Archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann, continuing the excavations started by British archaeologist Frank Calvert at a site known as Hisarlik mound, on the Aegean coast of Turkey, found the ancient city of Troy.  The site held seven different layers from societies going back thousands of years and shards of pottery and sculpture with at least 1,800 variations of spindle-whorls, or swastikas.

Schliemann connected the symbol with similar shapes found on pottery in Germany and speculated that it was a “significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors.” Other European scholars and thinkers linked the symbol to a shared Aryan culture that spanned Europe and Asia.

“When Heinrich Schliemann discovered swastika-like decorations on pottery fragments in all archaeological levels at Troy, it was seen as evidence for a racial continuity and proof that the inhabitants of the site had been Aryan all along,” writes anthropologist Gwendolyn Leick. “The link between the swastika and Indo-European origin, once forged was impossible to discard. It allowed the projection of nationalist feelings and associations onto a universal symbol, which hence served as a distinguishing boundary marker between non-Aryan, or rather non-German, and German identity.”

German nationalist groups like the Reichshammerbund (a 1912 anti-Semitic group) and the Bavarian Freikorps (paramilitarists who wanted to overthrow the Weimar Republic in Germany) used the swastika to reflect their “newly discovered” identity as the master race. The original meaning, that it traditionally meant good fortune, or that it was found everywhere from monuments to the Greek goddess Artemis to representations of Brahma and Buddha and at Native American sites, or that no one was truly certain of its origins no longer mattered

In Germany, after World War I, a number of far-right nationalist movements adopted the swastika. As a symbol, it had became associated with the idea of a racially “pure” state, a symbol of “Aryan identity” and German nationalist pride. The Nazi Party formally adopted the swastika or Hakenkreuz (Ger., hooked cross) as its symbol in 1920.

In Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler wrote:

“I myself, meanwhile, after innumerable attempts, had laid down a final form; a flag with a red background, a white disk, and a black swastika in the middle. After long trials I also found a definite proportion between the size of the flag and the size of the white disk, as well as the shape and thickness of the swastika.”

As the swastika became more and more intertwined with German nationalism, Adolf Hitler’s influence grew—and he adopted the hooked cross as the Nazi party symbol in 1920. “He was attracted to it because it was already being used in other nationalist, racialist groups,” says Steven Heller, author of The Swastika: Symbol Beyond Redemption? and Iron Fists: Branding the 20th-Century Totalitarian State. “I think he also understood instinctually that there had to be a symbol as powerful as the hammer and sickle, which was their nearest enemy.”

To further enshrine the swastika as a symbol of Nazi power, Joseph Goebbels (Hitler’s minister of propaganda) issued a decree on May 19, 1933 that prevented unauthorized commercial use of the hooked cross. The symbol also featured prominently Leni Riefenstahl’s propagandist film Triumph of the Will, writes historian Malcolm Quinn. “When Hitler is absent… his place is taken by the swastika, which, like the image of the Führer, becomes a switching station for personal and national identities.” The symbol was on uniforms, flags and even as a marching formation at rallies.

The connotations of the swastika had forever changed. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 07:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thoughts:

THE HISTORY OF THE SWASTIKA

The swastika is an ancient symbol that was in use in many different cultures for at least 5,000 years before Adolf Hitler made it the centerpiece of the Nazi flag, altering its symbolic meaning forever. Its present-day use by certain extremist groups promotes hate. The second sentence isn't really part of the history.

In 1871, Archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann, continuing the excavations started by British archaeologist Frank Calvert at a site known as Hisarlik mound, on the Aegean coast of Turkey, found the ancient city of Troy. The site held seven different layers from societies going back thousands of years and shards of pottery and sculpture with at least 1,800 variations of spindle-whorls, or swastikas. Schliemann connected the symbol with similar shapes found on pottery in Germany and speculated that it was a “significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors”. Other European scholars and thinkers linked the symbol to a shared Aryan culture that spanned Europe and Asia.

“When Heinrich Schliemann discovered swastika-like decorations on pottery fragments in all archaeological levels at Troy, it was seen as evidence for a racial continuity and proof that the inhabitants of the site had been Aryan all along", writes anthropologist Gwendolyn Leick. “The link between the swastika and Indo-European origin, once forged was impossible to discard. It allowed the projection of nationalist feelings and associations onto a universal symbol, which hence served as a distinguishing boundary marker between non-Aryan, or rather non-German, and German identity.”

German nationalist groups like the Reichshammerbund (a 1912 anti-Semitic group) and the Bavarian Freikorps (paramilitarists who wanted to overthrow the Weimar Republic in Germany) used the swastika to reflect their “newly discovered” identity as the master race. The original meaning, that it traditionally meant good fortune, or that it was found everywhere from monuments to the Greek goddess Artemis to representations of Brahma and Buddha and at Native American sites, or that no one was truly certain of its origins no longer mattered. Three different ideas with "or" disconnecting each sounds too speculative I think, guessing what the original meaning was in getting across the main point that the symbol meaning was now being used in a distinctly different way.

In Germany, after World War I, a number of far-right nationalist movements adopted the swastika. As a symbol, it had became associated with the idea of a racially “pure” state, a symbol of “Aryan identity” and German nationalist pride. The Nazi Party formally adopted the swastika or Hakenkreuz (Ger., hooked cross) as its symbol in 1920.

In Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler wrote:

“I myself, meanwhile, after innumerable attempts, had laid down a final form; a flag with a red background, a white disk, and a black swastika in the middle. After long trials I also found a definite proportion between the size of the flag and the size of the white disk, as well as the shape and thickness of the swastika.”

As Hitler's influence grew, the swastika became more intertwined with German nationalism and he adopted the hooked cross as the Nazi party symbol in 1920. “He was attracted to it because it was already being used in other nationalist, racialist groups,” says Steven Heller, author of The Swastika: Symbol Beyond Redemption? and Iron Fists: Branding the 20th-Century Totalitarian State. Citing two books sounds more like boasting his abilities than citing the required work. “I think he also understood instinctually that there had to be a symbol as powerful as the hammer and sickle, which was their nearest enemy.”

To further enshrine the swastika as a symbol of Nazi power, Joseph Goebbels (Hitler’s minister of propaganda) issued a decree on May 19, 1933 that prevented unauthorized commercial use of the hooked cross. The symbol also featured prominently Leni Riefenstahl’s propagandist film Triumph of the Will, writes historian Malcolm Quinn. “When Hitler is absent… his place is taken by the swastika, which, like the image of the Führer, becomes a switching station for personal and national identities.” The symbol was on uniforms, flags and even as a marching formation at rallies.

Otherwise this seems good, I'm not an absolute expert on the subject but this writing seems useful enough to include, I think. ButterCashier (talk) 08:47, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Exceptionally poor article

I've just removed a wide variety of material that was either totally unsourced, clearly WP:OR (links to various postcards), and poorly sourced (like to symbols.com). This is an improvement, but the article is still a confused, poorly-sourced mess. We need extensive discussion from and citations to the extensive scholarship on this topic. The state of this article is currently unacceptable and I've tagged it for a rewrite. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on this edit? I think Hitler's personal interpretation of the Swastika's symbolism is very relevant (as long as it's clearly labelled as his interpretation). — Czello 15:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes—Hitler is obviously not a reliable source for anything and his words should never just be taken at face value. His objective wasn't communicating truth, including when he discussed himself. We need secondary discussion from scholars providing context. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, we're not really claiming he's a reliable source on anything other than his own views on the matter. That's what I mean by saying it should be fine if we clearly label it as his own interpretation. — Czello 16:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Without context from experts, for all we know Hitler could have said multiple different things about this over multiple years. Hitler is after all a WP:PRIMARY source here. It shouldn't be difficult to find discussion from scholars about Hitler's claims. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Then can’t you just go and… um… find it? Dronebogus (talk) 17:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Bloodofox's radical changes to the article do not have consensus. Please discuss them here. Give your justification for each of the majaor changes you propose, and do not restore the edits without a consensus to do so. Please do not edit war. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)