Talk:Conservatism

Bibliography

A bibliography is more useful if it is selective rather than exhaustive. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

'The conservative case'

Please add page. Its on page 16. 81.0.166.183 (talk) 19:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Should read "nuclear family"

"Other major priorities within American conservatism include support for the traditional family, law and order, the right to bear arms, Christian values, anti-communism and a defense of Western civilization from the challenges of modernist culture and totalitarian governments'." The above quote should say "nuclear family" and not "traditional." Traditional is an entirely subjective term placing one tradition over others. The link goes to the "Family" page, which itself discourages the use of such a politically loaded term. 4Tildes 208.125.143.178 (talk) 12:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Remove Paragraph about RWA Scale

The third paragraph in the Psychology section fabricates a tendency of political conservatives to possess right-wing authoritarian “RWA” values. This is based on the claim that conservatives are likely to score higher than liberals on the RWA scale. Well, no shit. Every conservative is, by definition, closer to RWA than a liberal. That would be like listing communist tendencies under the psychological section of liberalism. This is a politically-active passage disguised as scientific research and should be removed. Sidotl (talk) 09:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

i do not understand your objection. If conservatives score higher on the scale than liberals, isn't that evidence that the scale works? In comparison, heavy objects score higher on a weighting scale than lighter objects. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with the scale. TFD (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Parliamentary government

I checked the source on the statement on the first paragraph that "...depending on the particular nation, conservatives seek to promote a range of social institutions such as ... parliamentary government" and I don't think the source supports this statement. The only time the source mentions "parliament" in the chapter on conservatism is in the following places:

• "[Tzar] Nicholas’ successors stubbornly refused to allow their power to be constrained by constitutions or the development of parliamentary institutions. In Germany, constitutional government did develop, but Otto von Bismarck, the imperial chancellor, 1871–90, ensured that it remained a sham"
• "The unwillingness of continental conservatives to come to terms with reform and democratic government extended well into the twentieth century. For instance, conservative elites in Italy and Germany helped to overthrow parliamentary democracy and bring Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler to power by providing support for, and giving respectability to, rising fascist movements."
• "‘Tory’ was used in eighteenth-century Britain to refer to a parliamentary faction that (as opposed to the Whigs) supported monarchical power and the Church of England, and represented the landed gentry; in the UsA, it implied loyalty to the British crown."
• "Christian democratic thinking has nevertheless had a wider impact, affecting centre-right parties in France, the Benelux countries, much of Scandinavia and parts of postcommunist Europe which are not ‘confessional’ parties or formally aligned to the Christian democratic movement. This certainly applies in the case of the European People’s Party (EPP), the major centre-right group in the European Parliament and the Parliament’s largest political group since 1999"

I'm going to remove the statement about parliament, but if anyone objects then feel free to revert it and explain your reason for doing so. --Spekkios (talk) 03:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Reactionism

The two paragraphs under the heading "Reactionism", about the difference between those conservatives who support the status quo and those who support the status quo ante, originally added to the article by JohnAdams1800 a few days ago, and as yet not discussed here in Talk, have been twice removed. When the two paragraphs were removed, the picture of former president of Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro, was also removed.

Both of these items seem clearly to the point and well referenced. The reason given for the original removal was "removal of newly added section due to irrelevance: "reactionism" is not the same as conservatism and is therefore not one of the major themes in conservatism; also "reactionary" is an obscure term that is mostly used pejoratively".

While not all conservatives are reactionary, many are, especially today, when many conservatives call for and enact legislation requiring a return to the days before Roe v. Wade, before rules requiring Black votes to count as much as White votes, and so on. Far from being "obscure", I hear the word "reactionary" often on the daily news.

For the removal of the picture of Jair Bolsonaro, no explanation has been offered.

I think both belong in the article. I post this here in hopes of gathering a consensus. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:20, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The problems associated with the ”Reactionism” section are too many to even count, but I will do my best to enumerate as many as come to mind. They are all very grave and exclude all possibility of reasonably including this section in the article.

1. ”Reactionism” is not even a word, the real term is reactionary.

2. The term is normally used as an ideological buzzword by political opponents, never ever used by conservatives themselves and only rarely used by neutral commentators. It is the equivalent of calling left-wingers degenerates.

3. The term is loose and obscure and is possibly not limited to conservative politics. Many communists believed in the idea of primitive communism – that the primordial social order was communistic and that society should return to this way of living. Paul Johnson claimed that no British politician has ever won an election on any other promise than that everything should become like it used to be. Does this mean that all of these people are reactionary?

4. It is a fallacy and a prejudice to suggest that conservatives are opposed to change or creation. After all, it was conservatives who created the European Union (Konrad Adenauer, Alcide De Gasperi, Robert Schuman). It was conservatives who created the first welfare states (Otto von Bismarck in Germany, Benjamin Disraeli in Great Britain, Rudolf Kjellén in Sweden etc.) National romanticism was primarily a conservative cultural project. In literature, J. R. R. Tolkien was a conservative traditionalist who basically created the modern fantasy genre. And so on and so on.

5. There are many more principal themes in conservatism than ”reactionism”. As an authority on the subject, who is familiar with most of the best literature written about conservative philosophy, I can name plenty: family values, patriotism, loyalty, authority, faith, culture, property rights, monarchy, law and order etc.

As for the picture of Jair Bolsonaro, it had to be removed because it interfered with a template. And templates have priority over images. Trakking (talk) 13:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I have not reviewed the edits in question, but this response gives me pause because it's a collection of what appears to be personal opinions about the concept. What should be focused on instead is the quality of the sources used. If an editor is "an authority on the subject," then the best way to express that is to lay out verifiable sources to support these positions, or in the alternative, sources that demonstrate why the sources that were introduced regarding "reactionism" are not verifiable. Show, don't tell. ~TPW 14:09, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with TPW. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

1. I agree. The title of the section should be "reactionary", not "reactionism".

2. The term "reactionary" is a perfectly good English language word. Conservatives rarely call themselves "reactionary" and liberals rarely call themselves "pro-abortion". People usually phrase their beliefs using words that will make those beliefs sound good. Instead of calling their view that we need to return to the status quo ante "reactionary" a conservative might call their beliefs "moral". Instead of calling their belief that abortion should be legal "pro-abortion", a liberal might call their belief "Right to Choice". Reactionary is a well-understood, relatively neutral word.

3. "Reactionary" is not loose. Merriam-Webster defines it as "relating to, marked by, or favoring esp. political reaction" and defines "reaction" (4) to turn back or revert to a former condition. The word is not obscure. Most people understand perfectly well what it means. You are right that "reactionary" is not limited to conservatives. Neither are "patriotism", "loyalty" or any of the other words you say are "principal themes of conservatism" limited to conservatives.

4. Wanting to return to a former condition not "opposed to change". It is in favor of change. You list a number of conservatives. Pointing out that not all conservatives want to return to a former way of life does not change the fact that many conservatives are reactionary.

5. The article mentions most of the qualities you describe as "principal themes in conservatism". It should also mention the reactionary views of many conservatives. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, there are better ways to fix a picture that interferes with a template than deleting it. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

1. "Reactionary"—an adjective—as a subheading? That is awkward and unconventional.

2. You just admitted that it is not a neutral word: "Conservatives rarely call themselves 'reactionary'…" If it was neutral, then no conservatives would have any problem of using the label. Thus, it is not neutral.

3. My dictionary defines the term reactionary as "strongly conservative". This is how the term is normally used. And yet, used in a broader sense, it could be applied to proponents of all ideologies. Consequently, it is a loose and obscure term.

4. Do you have any sources that indicate that "many conservatives are reactionary?" Who says that they ought to be labeled reactionary (whatever this even means) and not—plain and simple—conservative, traditionalist etc.?

5. There definitely are more themes to add to the list—with more reliable sources. I have thought about discussing this for a while. But "reactionism" is not among them. Scholarly works on conservative philosophy mention themes such as authority, family values, moral order, etc. Trakking (talk) 15:03, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

A rather futile discussion. We already have an article on the term reactionary and its history, and it is part of the template on conservatism. And "reactionism" is perfectly good English.:

• • "In ideology, reactionism is a tradition in right-wing politics; the reactionary stance opposes policies for the social transformation of society, whereas conservatives seek to preserve the socio-economic structure and order that exists in the present. "
  • Try using relevant sources, instead of silly dictionaries. Dimadick (talk) 11:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Dimadick: The term reactionary is included on "Related topics" on the template for Conservatism, which indicates its peripheral place within the ideological tradition. It is a related term, that's all.

  If you're so fond of relevant sources, try to find one that explicitly identifies "reactionism" as one of the major themes in conservatism. You won't. But there are many scholars that claim the exact opposite, that "reactionaries" are outside mainstream conservatism or that they even are anti-conservative. Here's a quote from Andrew Sullivan in The Reactionary Temptation (2017):

  Reactionism is not the same thing as conservatism. It’s far more potent a brew. Reactionary thought begins, usually, with acute despair at the present moment and a memory of a previous golden age. It then posits a moment in the past when everything went to hell and proposes to turn things back to what they once were. It is not simply a conservative preference for things as they are, with a few nudges back, but a passionate loathing of the status quo and a desire to return to the past in one emotionally cathartic revolt. If conservatives are pessimistic, reactionaries are apocalyptic. If conservatives value elites, reactionaries seethe with contempt for them. If conservatives believe in institutions, reactionaries want to blow them up. If conservatives tend to resist too radical a change, reactionaries want a revolution.

  And here's a quote from Mark Lilla in The Shipwrecked Mind: On Political Reaction (2016):

  The reactionary is anything but a conservative. He is as radical and modern a figure as the revolutionary, someone shipwrecked in the rapidly changing present, and suffering from nostalgia for an idealized past and an apocalyptic fear that history is rushing toward catastrophe. And like the revolutionary his political engagements are motivated by highly developed ideas.

  I will remove the section on "reactionism" in the article as it clearly is not supported by the authoritative literature. In fact, the literature states the exact opposite, that "reactionism" is revolutionary and anti-conservative. The term does not represent mainstream conservatism and it is absolutely not one of the major themes within the ideology. Trakking (talk) 17:08, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

  I think it looks bad for me to be the only one reverting this poster. I hope some of the other people who have posted here will restore the referenced sentences Trakking repeatedly deletes. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, your obstinacy looks really bad.

  The burden of proof lies on you for changing an article. And you have proven NOTHING. The "Themes" section is restricted to the central themes in conservatism, and "reactionism" is not among them. You have no reliable sources behind you that indicate such a thing. All the most authoritative literature on the topic refute your thesis with brutal force. See my former post: the quotations are written in stone.

  The most well-established and oft-quoted summary of conservative philosophy is made by Russell Kirk, who developed six canons of conservatism:

  • A belief in a transcendent order, which Kirk described variously as based in tradition, divine revelation, or natural law;
  • An affection for the "variety and mystery" of human existence;
  • A conviction that society requires orders and classes that emphasize natural distinctions;
  • A belief that property and freedom are closely linked;
  • A faith in custom, convention, and prescription; and
  • A recognition that innovation must be tied to existing traditions and customs, which entails a respect for the political value of prudence.

  Other users as well have urged you to support your edits with reliable sources. Please educate yourself thoroughly on a topic before you take action. Other authoritative scholars on conservatism are Robert Nisbet, Yoram Hazony, Roger Scruton, and Peter Viereck, who have written encyclopedic works on the topic. Start there. Trakking (talk) 10:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

  I think Rick Norwood has the stronger argument here. I've restored the content in question and provided an additional scholarly source: Corey Robin's The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Donald (Oxford University Press, 2018). Generalrelative (talk) 22:28, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  I thought this discussion was settled, but okay… I will invite some people who have written extensively or authoritatively about conservatism lately: @GreenLoeb, @Gondolabúrguer, @Alejandro Basombrio, @Mureungdowon, @JPratas. You should have more objective expertise on the topic than Rick Norwood and Generalrelative, who both are left-wing activists and whose only source (Corey Robin) is another left-wing activist, which is just poor scholarship. Robin's The Reactionary Mind has suffered scathing criticism, whereas Mark Lilla, whom I quoted above, is known as a serious scholar on the political left, and he refutes the notion that conservatism is the same thing as ”reactionism.”

  The question here is whether ”reactionism” is one of the central themes in conservatism—and the answer is that it simply is not. No reliable sources are cited that indicate such a thing. In fact, the most reliable sources state the exact opposite. They identify "reactionism" as revolutionary, utopian, and strikingly non-conservative.

  Literally NONE of the most prominent conservative politicians were ”reactionaries,” trying to restore some old order from a bygone age—not Disraeli, not Bismarck, not Adenauer, not Gaulle, not Reagan, not Thatcher. In fact, all of these people transformed their societies in new and adaptive ways: Disraeli managed to combine Toryism with socialism, Bismarck unified the Germans into an empire, Adenauer was one of the architects behind the European Union, Gaulle created a syncretic ideology (Gaullism) in the aftermath of WWII, Reagan became the forefather of modern American conservatism, and Thatcher liberalized the entire nation.

  The history of conservative thought is complex and dynamic and it ought to be treated with respect and discretion. ”Reactionary” is a term that conservatives themselves abhor and that serious scholars criticize. It is normally used as an insidious slur by left-wing activists to refer to things like good old historism and traditionalism. In a similar way, articles on socialism should not dedicate entire sections on GODLESSNESS and LEVELLING, when the neutral terms are secularism and egalitarianism. Trakking (talk) 11:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)