User talk:Makeandtoss

Hi again

I am trying to sort out some of the Lebanese villages (adding 1838 stuff from User:Huldra/Robinson). Lots of merging at Wikidata (because editors start articles about villages, without checking if articles about the same place exists on other wikis).

Now I have a problem: Majdel Balhis (in Rashaya District) is linked with one article on ar.wp: ar:مجدل بلحيس

Alas, we also have on Italian wp the article it:Majdel Balhiss (also in the Rashaya District), and that is linked with ar:مجدل بلهيص

Which of the Arabic articles is the "right" one? Or are there two articles for the same village on ar.wp?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I think I figured it out: the :it: article was linked to the wrong :ar: article (at least according to Localiban-spelling?) Huldra (talk) 23:58, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I also have a problem with Qelaya, see top of User:Huldra/Robinson#p._141. So according to Robinson/Smith; the corresponding article on ar.wp must be ar:قلايا.......but what then is it:Kelya (with its linked ar.article ar:قليا)? Huldra (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

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Hi

If you have a moment, can you join the convo re Hashemite custodianship of Jerusalem holy sites at Once's talk page (at the bottom headed "Busy?"~). Cheers. Selfstudier (talk) 08:50, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Amman Bus moved to draftspace

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United States

Unintended on my part...just got swept up in the mix of what I was working on...sorry about that. Vjmlhds 13:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

GAR notice

Amman has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 04:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Complaint

This is obviously seen as a justification for terrorism by quoting sources such as that. You know most people will read as an ‘eye for an eye’ when that was clearly not the case, this was clear cut terrorism as clear as the light of day. Salandarianflag (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

February 2023

Hi. I was just wondering why you think that "Islamic" doesn't apply to the Hashemites. M.Bitton (talk) 13:27, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: There’s nothing Islamic about Jordanian royal family. They do not rule using Sharia law nor do they aspire to. They’re secular and do not support political Islam, Islamism. They’re actually directly opposed to that ideology. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:31, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Islamic simply means "related to Islam" or "connected with the Muslim religion" (which, as Sharifians, they are), it doesn't necessarily mean that they rule using Sharia law. M.Bitton (talk) 13:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Islamic monarchy by definition according to sources I could find online is where monarchial and religious authorities are intertwined. This intertwining is not the case in Jordan, and is actually more of a case in the United Kingdom where the monarch is head of church of England. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

The wiki definition (the only one I could find) is unsourced. Do you have a link to the sources in questions? M.Bitton (talk) 13:51, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Arab Orthodox Movement

On 17 February 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Arab Orthodox Movement, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Arab Orthodox Movement aims to Arabize the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, a church whose laity is mostly Arab but is led by Greek clergy? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Arab Orthodox Movement. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Arab Orthodox Movement), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

-- RoySmith (talk) 00:03, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

1RR

Please remember that all content related to the Arab–Israeli conflict are subject to a 1 revert rule -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 17:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@Guerillero: Exemptions include reverting users who are not allowed to edit. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Not great RM

You should really have looked for the existing Wadi Hilweh page before starting this. See talk. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 4: Clarification request closed

Hello Makeandtoss,

the clarification request regarding Palestine-Israel articles 4 has been closed with the following summary, referring to Dovidroth:

There is a rough consensus that there is no conflict of interest issue with this particular editor, and as a general principle, simply being the employee of a government does not prevent all editing in a contentious topic that involves that government.

Best regards,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

June 2023

Hello, I'm AgisdeSparte. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz seemed less than neutral to me, so I removed it for now. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. AgisdeSparte (talk) 12:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Arab Orthodox Movement

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Dispute re:Palestine

Please be advised that I have taken the dispute about the State of Palestine to WP:DRN. Your contributions would be very much appreciated. RomanHannibal (talk) 19:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Double check

I think you got confused here. Why do you think the editor can't edit? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Not allowed to edit + reverting other unconstructive edits. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Your request for arbitration

I have no idea but, why did you add an empty duplicate section above your request for arbitration? Toadette ^(chat)/_(logs) 11:17, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I do not remember adding it honestly. I only clicked on the add request button and changed below accordingly. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:18, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey, Makeandtoss. I'm not an admin and have no authority to tell you what to do. This is just advice based on hard-earned experience, which you are free to act on or not as you see fit. I think you should stop talking about your concerns about Dovidroth being an employee of the National Library of Israel. It's making you look bad. If you mention it just once, then it looks like you're just providing some context for the new accusations, but if you mention it over and over, it will look like you're WP:FORUMSHOPPING. People will think you only want a do-over of the COIPOLITICAL issue because you got an answer you didn't like. This will make them overlook any new issues raised. I read the April filing, and you raised a few good points, but so did the other editors. It's one thing to revisit an issue if new evidence comes up or something important changes or even if a lot of time has passed, but none of this has happened this time.

Don't worry that people won't notice the previous accusation. After all, I noticed it.

Dovidroth shouldn't have called your edits stupid. You've presented the community with what looks like a fair case. Don't get yourself WP:BOOMERANGed when all you have to do is sit back and let people read it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Noted, thanks. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:52, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Need Arabic help

Hi, Make&toss, there is an Arabic name question at Talk:Hebron#Al-khalil_al-rahman that you might be able to help with. Thanks. Zero^talk 13:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

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Al-Kindi

Hi, please consider WP:BRD and don't engage in edit-warring when you are reverted, take your concerns to the talk page instead. Thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Please use edit summaries

Can you please use edit summaries for every edit you make October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict? Many of your edits[1] remove references or material without explaining why. VR _talk 15:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vice regent: Noted. Mostly unnecessary, for example the Indian references. Or a live CNN source. Or just redundant. It seemed to me as if sources from every news article have just been dropped in the lede for no good reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

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2023 Israel–Hamas war lead section

Hi, thanks for your active editing on the 2023 Israel–Hamas war article. I was about to make some significant edits to the lead section but saw you were still actively making changes on the area, and wanted to be in sync with you first:

A problem with the lead is that the second paragraph focuses largely on the background, rather than the characteristics, effects, and responses of the attack. I think all that background info should be moved to the Background section. For reference, September 11 attacks does not discuss Al-Qaeda’s grievances or the history of U.S. foreign policy in the lead at all.

What do you think? You or I could make the edits; I just didn’t want to interfere with any edits you plan to make. Merlin^sorca 10:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Merlinsorca: Thank for the notice. Please be aware of MOS:LEDE which states: "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents." A lede serves as summarization of the body, and by extension, the background; I see no reason why a background summary shouldn't be in the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Your latest edit goes also against MOS:OPEN: "The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it." Makeandtoss (talk) 11:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Happy to edit it further - I just moved content around as my first edit.

The first paragraph had no detail and only described the names of the operations. Merlin^sorca 11:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

With this edit, it had too much detail and specifics. Needs a short sentence or two to describe the conflict. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I’ve added a single sentence to summarize Merlin^sorca 11:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Merlinsorca: The sentence you added does not make much sense. Israel has also moved tanks, helicopters, and fighters jets; so, what's the point of mentioning this in the lede? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I can see how you disagree with adding this info, but I don’t see how it "does not make much sense". Surely it makes sense to include info that makes the initial attack unusual? When have militants entered Israeli territory with air, land, and sea vehicles before? The 9/11 article mentions that the attackers used commercial airliners. Merlin^sorca 11:21, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you really saying "don’t mention that the attackers used airliners in 9/11 because the U.S. used airplanes when bombing the middle east"? Merlin^sorca 11:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Merlinsorca: Reread the article title. This article is about the war, and not about the Hamas attack exclusively. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Noted, so we can add a sentence summarizing the Israeli response - airstrikes, ground invasions, shutting off services, etc. I hadn’t gotten to that yet. Merlin^sorca 11:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Merlinsorca: I don't see how that would be beneficial to the article. Look at Iraq War, Russo-Ukrainian War; none of the opening paragraphs have details on the proceedings of the war, but rather the context in which it happened. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts:

- Seems the bigger issue is that the article is called a "War" but the first paragraph only mentions the invasion. Would you agree on resolving this discrepancy by rewriting the first paragraph to refer to this as a war?

- My aim was simply to highlight what makes this war notable / significant in the first paragraph. Specifically, how unprecedented the initial attack was (in terms of coordination, surprise, quantity, and vehicles during incursion), and how heavy handed the response is. As it stands, it is lacking. I’ll consider in a little bit and share with you. Merlin^sorca 11:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I see news sources use the word "unprecedented" to describe this. Perhaps the first few sentences should be:

The 2023 Israel–Hamas war is an ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas. Part of the broader Gaza–Israel conflict, it began with an unprecedented (I could see this word being omitted. If not, I would include references, and perhaps include a note explaining why it is unprecedented) militant invasion of Israel from the Gaza Strip on October 7, 2023. In response, Israel formally declared war on Hamas on October 8.[2] Merlin^sorca 12:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Merlinsorca: The 2023 Israel–Hamas war is an ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas. Part of the broader Gaza–Israel conflict and following an uptick of violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the war began with an militant invasion of Israel from the Gaza Strip on 7 October 2023, followed by an invasion by Israel of the Gaza Strip.

This could be an appropriate initial iteration. Israel's declaration of war is only a formality. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

"Israel's declaration of war is only a formality" - perhaps, but my idea of this is to provide a date of their declaration regardless, so readers have a good grasp of the timeline.

The 2023 Israel–Hamas war is an ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas. Part of the broader Gaza–Israel conflict and following an uptick of violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the war began with a militant invasion of Israel from the Gaza Strip on 7 October 2023. In response, Israel declared war on Hamas on October 8 and launched an invasion of the Gaza Strip.

Also, there is a discussion on splitting the article and creating a new one for the initial attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Proposed_article_split_for_the_initial_attack

If you agree to split, would you consider adding your opinion there? Merlin^sorca 12:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

You’re right and I agree the lead should summarize the background. I would say that it’s going beyond summarizing and including too much detail (it seems to be redundant, duplicating most of the info there). Wouldn’t a single line suffice? Merlin^sorca 11:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

How is the background paragraph, the second paragraph, duplicating any information in the lede? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The paragraph in the intro currently reads:

The war represents a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the Gaza–Israel conflict, which followed a violent year that saw increased expansion of Israeli settlements and clashes in Jenin, Al-Aqsa mosque, Gaza, which killed almost 250 Palestinians and 36 Israelis; Hamas cited these events as justification for the attack and called on Palestinians to join the fight to "expel the occupiers and demolish the walls"

The body section paragraph reads:

In 2023, there were several violent flare-ups in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Prior to the attack, including combatants and civilians on both sides, at least 247 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces, while 32 Israelis and two foreign nationals had been killed in Palestinian attacks.

The lead section mentions both the locations and number of dead in background events. Too much detail. It also includes a quote by one side justifying the war. The other war articles you referenced as examples do not include quotes from one side justifying their side of the war. Merlin^sorca 11:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:1RR at 2023 Israel–Hamas war

Please be careful to not violate WP:1RR at 2023 Israel–Hamas war. In the past 24 hours, your reverts include but aren't limited to:

1. 11:07, 11 October 2023, reverting this edit
2. 09:42, 11 October 2023, reverting this edit
3. 23:26, 10 October 2023, reverting this edit

Remember that {the term "revert" is defined as any edit (or administrative action) that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, and whether performed using undo, rollback, or done so completely manually. A series of consecutively saved reverting edits by one user, with no intervening edits by another user, counts as one revert.

The reverts at 09:42, 11 October 2023 and 23:26, 10 October 2023 are particularly problematic, because they are edit warring over the same content. Some of this can still be self-reverted; please do so, to bring yourself as close to compliance as you can. BilledMammal (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)