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m moved Talk:K.D. Lang to Talk:K.d. lang: Per consensus at WP:RM
Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)
 
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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=C|listas=Lang, K.d.|
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{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=Start|priority=|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Lang, K.D.|nested=yes}}
{{WikiProject Biography|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=mid}}
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{{WikiProject Canada|class=Start|importance=Mid|music=yes|nested=yes}}
{{WikiProject James Bond|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Canada|importance=Mid|music=yes}}
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{{WikiProject Pop music|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Women in Music|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject LGBT studies|person=yes}}
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}}
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== Capitalization and the MOS ==
== External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
[[WP:MOSCL]] states "For proper names and trademarks that are given in mixed or non-capitalization by their owners (such as k.d. lang, adidas and others), follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." That seems to directly address whether to capitalize K.D.Lang's name throughout the article. Standard text formatting and capitalization rules are to capitalize proper names. It even goes on to say that "[t]he mixed or non-capitalized formatting should be mentioned in the article lead, or illustrated with a graphical logo." I fail to see any ambiguity here, and I can't understand why anyone would continue to revert standard capitalization back to all lowercase. [[User:Andyparkerson|Andyparkerson]] ([[User talk:Andyparkerson|talk]]) 00:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:Cause that portion of the MOS is stupid. Especially in cases like this where lang is NOT known anywhere under the capitalized version of K D Lang and when we make arbitrary exceptions for things like iPhone. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 02:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
::If you don't like the MOS, change it. That is where this argument needs to occur. [[User:Andyparkerson|Andyparkerson]] ([[User talk:Andyparkerson|talk]]) 17:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
:::[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]] already says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." The most common name of k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K.D. Lang. {{unsignedIP|85.178.12.52 }} 13:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::::[[WP:COMMONNAME]] does not address matters of capitalization with a single word. But it does link to [[WP:MOSTM]], which provides detailed guidelines for handling nonstandard capitalization (and by and large suggests to dismiss it). Our guidelines for music related articles ([[WP:MUSTARD]]) also link to that page, in the context of band and artist names. – [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] <sup>([[User talk:Cyrus XIII|talk]])</sup> 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::[[WP:MOSTM]] is about trademarks and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. K.d. lang is a person's name (not even a "stage name" as you keep pretending), not a trademark. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 14:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::exactly how do you define "stage name" so that it does not include lang's lower case spacing adjusted monicer? -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::A stage name is a type of [[pseudonym]], a name that is significantly distinct from one's official, legal name, and taken for use as a performer. Using one's initials, or using a full name and an initial, or using only one given name when one has several, or using a nickname that is derived from one's given name, doesn't qualify as a pseudonym. Using any one of the last names one has legally borne in the course of one's life doesn't qualify as a pseudonym either. [[Whoopi Goldberg]] is a stage name for Caryn Elaine Johnson. [[George Burns]] is a stage name for Nathan Birnbaum. But [[A. A. Milne]], [[C. S. Lewis]], [[J. R. R. Tolkien]], [[E. B. White]], [[E. E. Cummings]], and [[E. M. Forster]] are not pseudonyms for Alan Alexander Milne, Clive Staples Lewis, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Elwyn Brooks White, Edward Estlin Cummings, and Edgar Morgan Forster. And [[k.d. lang]], with ''any'' capitalization and ''any'' spacing between the initials, is not a pseudonym for Kathryn Dawn Lang. It's just the version of her name that she uses professionally. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 21:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Hurrah! Her name isn't capitalized! Thus ends (I hope) one of wikipedia's more ludicrous disputes and its root, a flaw in the MOS. [[Special:Contributions/81.132.83.199|81.132.83.199]] ([[User talk:81.132.83.199|talk]]) 10:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


I have just modified 2 external links on [[K.d. lang]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777948566 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
== Capitalization discussion at the manual of style ==
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110517101343/http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3159573.ece to http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3159573.ece
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222100831/http://www.playbill.com/news/article/182058-Grammy-Winner-KD-Lang-Will-Make-Broadway-Debut-in-After-Midnight to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/182058-Grammy-Winner-KD-Lang-Will-Make-Broadway-Debut-in-After-Midnight


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For all interested parties, there is a discussion going on right now at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Capitalisation| the Manual of Style]] about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes (like k.d. lang, for example). -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 16:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


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==[[WP:MOSCAPS]]==
[[WP:MOSCAPS]] is quite clear that this article can and should be renamed: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources." In addition to the singer's own web site (a primary source) we do have reliable third party references proving that k.d. lang is correct. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
== Requested move ==


== External links modified ==
{{movereq|k.d. lang}}


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
[[:K.D. Lang]] → [[k.d. lang]] — As [[WP:MOSCAPS]] says, "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles '''may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources'''." (emphasis mine) The all-lowercase spelling of "k.d. lang" is verified through multiple third-party sources in the article, indicating that the all-lowercase spelling ''is'' the most common use. Therefore, the article should be moved to match. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 18:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

*'''''Note to closing admin''''': This page's title has been edit-warred over in the past, so I would recommend a move-protect. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 18:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I have just modified one external link on [[K.d. lang]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813538555|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*'''Agree''' It should be moved. as per [[WP:MOSCAPS]]. [[User:Jenafalt|Jenafalt]] ([[User talk:Jenafalt|talk]]) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080615142157/http://www.afterellen.com/archive/ellen/Music/kdlang.html to http://www.afterellen.com/archive/ellen/Music/kdlang.html
*'''Agree''' The correct title of this article is lowercase. '''[[User:GB fan|<span style='color: #ffac2c;background-color: #00422f;'>~~&nbsp;GB&nbsp;fan&nbsp;~~</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:GB fan|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 01:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

*'''Support''', k.d. lang is one of the most prominent people who don't capitalise their name. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 09:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
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*'''Neutral''' - there's considerable outside use, but I'm not sure why we should allow people who decide on a whim not to capitalize their name to do so when we explicitly do not endorse the same from any other subject. [[Special:Contributions/81.110.104.91|81.110.104.91]] ([[User talk:81.110.104.91|talk]]) 18:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Per [[WP:MOSCAP]]. -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 20:07, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
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*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:MOSTM]]. Typographical eccentricities are not an inherent part of a name. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 01:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

:'''Comment''' You're citing the MOS guideline on trademarks, but this is a personal name, which is covered elsewhere in the MOS. -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 12:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 23:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' it appears from the logs and talk page archives that the page was originally at the all lowercase spelling, and there was consenus against moving it to the capitalised title in 2005. It was subjected to various move wars, including at least one cut and paste move in 2007-8 with the outcome of all discussions on the talk that the correct title is [[k.d. lang]]. It was seemingly then moved to the present title, against consensus, last year. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

:*The article can always be move-protected. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
== "Lang" or "lang" in text? ==
:**Whatever the outcome of this request, I think move protection might not be a bad idea given the history. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

*'''<s>Oppose</s> <s>Weak</s> Support''', wasn't there already a discussion/consensus on keeping with the caps? See also caps at [[E. E. Cummings]]... I'll try to provide more rationale when I get the time. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 02:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Coming here after a discussion at [[tatiana de la tierra]] ...
::E. E. Cummings explicitly didn't self-identify in lowercase. [[Special:Contributions/81.110.104.91|81.110.104.91]] ([[User talk:81.110.104.91|talk]]) 16:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

:*Changed vote to Weak support per nom citing MOSCAPS; see also [http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Winners/Results.aspx Grammy website] (search k.d. lang; results come in lowercase). It's weak because I still seem to recall some sort of caps consensus; also I personally just don't like the lowercase. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 02:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
[[MOS:LCITEMS]] says "{{tq|Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference}}", according to which, as I read it, the surname should be "lang" not "Lang" except where it starts a sentence. This article seems to use "Lang" pretty consistently in the text. I haven't made any changes, as this is a high-profile article with which I have no involvement: I just bring it to your attention. Happy Editing! [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 08:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
::*[[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT|I don't like it]] is not a valid reason to support or oppose anything. Regarding the consensus, as far as I can see from the talk page and its archive there has only ever been consensus for lowercase. {{unsigned|Thryduulf}} 09:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

:::*Yep, that's why it's a support rather than oppose. If consensus has been lowercase (which it appears to have been, by looking at talk), then my consensus argument could obviously be disregarded without comment from me; my [[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT]] is just my opinion, and wasn't meant to influence move consensus. Either way, these can be disregarded because I have....
== Approbation of Leonard Cohen himself? ==
:::*Changed vote to "'''Support'''" because though this is not, in my opinion, a 'personal name' as mentionned at MOSCAPS, there seems to be precedent with band names such as [[moe.]] and [[múm]]; this 'artist name' should be no different. Also as I mentionned previously, there is general usage (ie Grammys) of lowercase. Sorry for the confusing [[Flip-flop (politics)|flip-flopping]]. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 17:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

*'''Support''', per above this should have happened a while ago. [[User_talk:Benjiboi| -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj<font color="#FF4400">e</font></u><u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b<font color="#AA0022">oi</font></u>]] 15:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Greetings - I have just read a YouTube comment (please, no eye rolls) that stated k.d.lang sang "Hallelujah" when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and that hers was his favorite version of the song. Is there any truth to this? If so, a brief mention would be good. Thank you for your time, [[User:Wordreader|Wordreader]] ([[User talk:Wordreader|talk]]) 12:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 07:10, 13 February 2024

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"Lang" or "lang" in text?

[edit]

Coming here after a discussion at tatiana de la tierra ...

MOS:LCITEMS says "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference", according to which, as I read it, the surname should be "lang" not "Lang" except where it starts a sentence. This article seems to use "Lang" pretty consistently in the text. I haven't made any changes, as this is a high-profile article with which I have no involvement: I just bring it to your attention. Happy Editing! PamD 08:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Approbation of Leonard Cohen himself?

[edit]

Greetings - I have just read a YouTube comment (please, no eye rolls) that stated k.d.lang sang "Hallelujah" when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and that hers was his favorite version of the song. Is there any truth to this? If so, a brief mention would be good. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 12:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:K.d._lang&oldid=1206832680"