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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=C|listas=Lang, K.d.|
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{{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=Start|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Lang, K.d.|priority=}}
{{WikiProject LGBT studies|class=Start}}
{{WikiProject James Bond|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Canada|class=Start|importance=Mid|music=yes}}
{{WikiProject Canada|importance=Mid|music=yes}}
{{WikiProject Pop music|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Women in Music|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject LGBT studies|person=yes}}
}}
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== Capitalization and the MOS ==
== External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
[[WP:MOSCL]] states "For proper names and trademarks that are given in mixed or non-capitalization by their owners (such as k.d. lang, adidas and others), follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." That seems to directly address whether to capitalize K.D.Lang's name throughout the article. Standard text formatting and capitalization rules are to capitalize proper names. It even goes on to say that "[t]he mixed or non-capitalized formatting should be mentioned in the article lead, or illustrated with a graphical logo." I fail to see any ambiguity here, and I can't understand why anyone would continue to revert standard capitalization back to all lowercase. [[User:Andyparkerson|Andyparkerson]] ([[User talk:Andyparkerson|talk]]) 00:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:Cause that portion of the MOS is stupid. Especially in cases like this where lang is NOT known anywhere under the capitalized version of K D Lang and when we make arbitrary exceptions for things like iPhone. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 02:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
::If you don't like the MOS, change it. That is where this argument needs to occur. [[User:Andyparkerson|Andyparkerson]] ([[User talk:Andyparkerson|talk]]) 17:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
:::[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)]] already says "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." The most common name of k.d. lang is k.d. lang, not K.D. Lang. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/85.178.12.52 |85.178.12.52 ]] ([[User talk:85.178.12.52 |talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> 13:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::::[[WP:COMMONNAME]] does not address matters of capitalization with a single word. But it does link to [[WP:MOSTM]], which provides detailed guidelines for handling nonstandard capitalization (and by and large suggests to dismiss it). Our guidelines for music related articles ([[WP:MUSTARD]]) also link to that page, in the context of band and artist names. – [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] <sup>([[User talk:Cyrus XIII|talk]])</sup> 14:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::[[WP:MOSTM]] is about trademarks and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. K.d. lang is a person's name (not even a "stage name" as you keep pretending), not a trademark. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 14:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
::::::exactly how do you define "stage name" so that it does not include lang's lower case spacing adjusted monicer? -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:medium;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::::A stage name is a type of [[pseudonym]], a name that is significantly distinct from one's official, legal name, and taken for use as a performer. Using one's initials, or using a full name and an initial, or using only one given name when one has several, or using a nickname that is derived from one's given name, doesn't qualify as a pseudonym. Using any one of the last names one has legally borne in the course of one's life doesn't qualify as a pseudonym either. [[Whoopi Goldberg]] is a stage name for Caryn Elaine Johnson. [[George Burns]] is a stage name for Nathan Birnbaum. But [[A. A. Milne]], [[C. S. Lewis]], [[J. R. R. Tolkien]], [[E. B. White]], [[E. E. Cummings]], and [[E. M. Forster]] are not pseudonyms for Alan Alexander Milne, Clive Staples Lewis, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, Elwyn Brooks White, Edward Estlin Cummings, and Edgar Morgan Forster. And [[k.d. lang]], with ''any'' capitalization and ''any'' spacing between the initials, is not a pseudonym for Kathryn Dawn Lang. It's just the version of her name that she uses professionally. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] 21:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Hurrah! Her name isn't capitalized! Thus ends (I hope) one of wikipedia's more ludicrous disputes and its root, a flaw in the MOS. [[Special:Contributions/81.132.83.199|81.132.83.199]] ([[User talk:81.132.83.199|talk]]) 10:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


I have just modified 2 external links on [[K.d. lang]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=777948566 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
Yes, but the first paragraph makes a point of saying that there is no space between the initials and cites two references. One of which is her own site, which doesn't appear to say anything on the subject at all (although their typography suggests that her webmaster prefers to set it without a space), and the other is Who2.com, which clearly uses the space. I think it's fine to treat the space as a matter of style and leave it out, but to specifically state that it must be left out appears to be not correct.[[User:Vanhorn|Vanhorn]] ([[User talk:Vanhorn|talk]]) 05:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110517101343/http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3159573.ece to http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3159573.ece
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222100831/http://www.playbill.com/news/article/182058-Grammy-Winner-KD-Lang-Will-Make-Broadway-Debut-in-After-Midnight to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/182058-Grammy-Winner-KD-Lang-Will-Make-Broadway-Debut-in-After-Midnight


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== Capitalization discussion at the manual of style ==


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
For all interested parties, there is a discussion going on right now at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Capitalisation| the Manual of Style]] about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes (like k.d. lang, for example). -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 16:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:: "...about whether or not to capitalize people's names against their wishes...." How very Wiki-ish. Is this an inbred "culture" or what?


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:52, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
==[[WP:MOSCAPS]]==
[[WP:MOSCAPS]] is quite clear that this article can and should be renamed: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources." In addition to the singer's own web site (a primary source) we do have reliable third party references proving that k.d. lang is correct. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


== Requested move ==
== External links modified ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
The result of the proposal was '''Moved''' to k.d. lang. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 18:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


I have just modified one external link on [[K.d. lang]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813538555|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080615142157/http://www.afterellen.com/archive/ellen/Music/kdlang.html to http://www.afterellen.com/archive/ellen/Music/kdlang.html


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
[[:K.D. Lang]] → [[k.d. lang]] — As [[WP:MOSCAPS]] says, "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles '''may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources'''." (emphasis mine) The all-lowercase spelling of "k.d. lang" is verified through multiple third-party sources in the article, indicating that the all-lowercase spelling ''is'' the most common use. Therefore, the article should be moved to match. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 18:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Agree''' It should be moved. as per [[WP:MOSCAPS]]. [[User:Jenafalt|Jenafalt]] ([[User talk:Jenafalt|talk]]) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Agree''' The correct title of this article is lowercase. '''[[User:GB fan|<span style='color: #ffac2c;background-color: #00422f;'>~~&nbsp;GB&nbsp;fan&nbsp;~~</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:GB fan|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 01:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''', k.d. lang is one of the most prominent people who don't capitalise their name. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 09:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' - there's considerable outside use, but I'm not sure why we should allow people who decide on a whim not to capitalize their name to do so when we explicitly do not endorse the same from any other subject. [[Special:Contributions/81.110.104.91|81.110.104.91]] ([[User talk:81.110.104.91|talk]]) 18:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Per [[WP:MOSCAP]]. -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 20:07, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:MOSTM]]. Typographical eccentricities are not an inherent part of a name. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 01:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' You're citing the MOS guideline on trademarks, but this is a personal name, which is covered elsewhere in the MOS. -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 12:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' it appears from the logs and talk page archives that the page was originally at the all lowercase spelling, and there was consenus against moving it to the capitalised title in 2005. It was subjected to various move wars, including at least one cut and paste move in 2007-8 with the outcome of all discussions on the talk that the correct title is [[k.d. lang]]. It was seemingly then moved to the present title, against consensus, last year. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
:*The article can always be move-protected. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
:**Whatever the outcome of this request, I think move protection might not be a bad idea given the history. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''<s>Oppose</s> <s>Weak</s> Support''', wasn't there already a discussion/consensus on keeping with the caps? See also caps at [[E. E. Cummings]]... I'll try to provide more rationale when I get the time. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 02:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
::E. E. Cummings explicitly didn't self-identify in lowercase. [[Special:Contributions/81.110.104.91|81.110.104.91]] ([[User talk:81.110.104.91|talk]]) 16:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
:*Changed vote to Weak support per nom citing MOSCAPS; see also [http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Winners/Results.aspx Grammy website] (search k.d. lang; results come in lowercase). It's weak because I still seem to recall some sort of caps consensus; also I personally just don't like the lowercase. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 02:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
::*[[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT|I don't like it]] is not a valid reason to support or oppose anything. Regarding the consensus, as far as I can see from the talk page and its archive there has only ever been consensus for lowercase. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Thryduulf|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> 09:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
:::*Yep, that's why it's a support rather than oppose. If consensus has been lowercase (which it appears to have been, by looking at talk), then my consensus argument could obviously be disregarded without comment from me; my [[WP:IDON'TLIKEIT]] is just my opinion, and wasn't meant to influence move consensus. Either way, these can be disregarded because I have....
:::*Changed vote to "'''Support'''" because though this is not, in my opinion, a 'personal name' as mentionned at MOSCAPS, there seems to be precedent with band names such as [[moe.]] and [[múm]]; this 'artist name' should be no different. Also as I mentionned previously, there is general usage (ie Grammys) of lowercase. Sorry for the confusing [[Flip-flop (politics)|flip-flopping]]. -'''[[User:M.nelson|M.Nelson]]''' ([[User talk:M.nelson|talk]]) 17:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''', per above this should have happened a while ago. [[User_talk:Benjiboi| -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj<font color="#FF4400">e</font></u><u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b<font color="#AA0022">oi</font></u>]] 15:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
== k.d. lang, not K. d. lang ==


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 23:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the debate to move was to make the title of the article k.d. lang, not K.d. lang, which is what has actually happened. I think it needs to be moved again. [[User:Jenafalt|Jenafalt]] ([[User talk:Jenafalt|talk]]) 09:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
:[[WP:NCTR|Page names cannot start with a lowercase letter]]. Hence the use of {{tl|lowercase title}} to pretend that it does. [[Special:Contributions/81.111.114.131|81.111.114.131]] ([[User talk:81.111.114.131|talk]]) 01:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Is fixed now, thanks. [[User:Jenafalt|Jenafalt]] ([[User talk:Jenafalt|talk]]) 07:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


== "vegetarian" vs. "vegan"? ==
== "Lang" or "lang" in text? ==


Coming here after a discussion at [[tatiana de la tierra]] ...
(Sorry, seems my account has gone.)


[[MOS:LCITEMS]] says "{{tq|Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference}}", according to which, as I read it, the surname should be "lang" not "Lang" except where it starts a sentence. This article seems to use "Lang" pretty consistently in the text. I haven't made any changes, as this is a high-profile article with which I have no involvement: I just bring it to your attention. Happy Editing! [[User:PamD|<span style="color: green">'''''Pam'''''</span>]][[User talk:PamD|<span style="color: brown">'''''D'''''</span>]] 08:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
In the article, I see k.d. lang described as [[Vegetarianism|vegetarian]], while at the same time, she's listed in the [[List of vegans#Musicians|list of vegans]]. Should this be changed here? --[[Special:Contributions/78.53.218.135|78.53.218.135]] ([[User talk:78.53.218.135|talk]]) 22:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
:If you can find evidence of one or the other make the change, but they aren't mutually exclusive and "vegetarian" is the safe option.[[Special:Contributions/78.86.61.94|78.86.61.94]] ([[User talk:78.86.61.94|talk]]) 03:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


== Approbation of Leonard Cohen himself? ==
== Poor photo ==
Surely there must be a better photo than that. It looks like [[Paul Whitehouse]] choking on a [[phlegm]]-ball, or a lemon. [[User:Melonbonce|Melonbonce]] ([[User talk:Melonbonce|talk]]) 10:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
::I found one with the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Upload&uselang=fromflickr right license] at flickr and uploaded it. Let's hope this one meets your standards. --[[User:CutOffTies|CutOffTies]] ([[User talk:CutOffTies|talk]]) 13:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


Greetings - I have just read a YouTube comment (please, no eye rolls) that stated k.d.lang sang "Hallelujah" when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and that hers was his favorite version of the song. Is there any truth to this? If so, a brief mention would be good. Thank you for your time, [[User:Wordreader|Wordreader]] ([[User talk:Wordreader|talk]]) 12:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
== Requested move: k.d lang → K. D. Lang ==

{{Requested move/dated|K. D. Lang}}

[[K.d. lang]] → {{no redirect|1=K. D. Lang}} – We have guidelines that stipulate the use of conventional capitalization for musician names ([[MOS:MUSIC]]), for trademarks ([[WP:MOSTM]]), and in article titles ([[WP:CAPS]]). All three apply here. So case closed? Not so fast. There is some curious language in [[WP:MOSCAPS#Mixed_or_non-capitalization|MOSCAPS]] that carves out an exception tailored to this article. As the guideline explains, “Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized." This is terrible logic and the potential for mischief is obvious. (“If Lang can get an exception, why can’t [[Seven (Korean singer)|Seven]] be Se7en?”) So I’m hoping that after we move the article we can cut this cute little pustule out of the guidelines. The subject’s name is given in the proposed form by [http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SHOWBIZ/Music/05/10/the.cars.new.album/index.html?iref=allsearch CNN], [http://www.amazon.com/K.-D.-Lang/e/B000APUQCW/ref=ntt_mus_dp_pel Amazon], and the ''[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/k_d_lang/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=K.D.%20Lang&st=cse New York Times]''. The libraries are all cataloging her work under “K D Lang”, according to [http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3ALang%2C+K.+D.&qt=hot_author Worldcat]. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 15:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The '''relevant guidelines''' are:
*“Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists.” ([[MOS:MUSIC]])
::<small>The “standard rule" is as follows:</small>
:*'''8.4''' '''''Capitalization of personal names.''''' Names and initials of persons, real or fictitious, are capitalized.” ''[http://www.amazon.com/dp/0226104206/ref=rdr_ext_tmb Chicago Manual of Style]'', p. 388. ('''P. D. James''' is given as an example.) CMOS provides this explanatory note on its Web site: “Occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently."[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ProperNames/ProperNames21.html]
*“Choose among styles already in use...and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English” ([[WP:MOSTM]])
*Adhere “to conventions [for capitalization] widely used in the genre.” ([[WP:CAPS]])
*"Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, [[k.d. lang]])." ([[WP:MOSCAPS#Mixed_or_non-capitalization|MOSCAPS]]) [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 15:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
===survey===
*'''oppose'''; I see lowercasing as significantly less problematic than all-caps, ''especially'' for personal names (as opposed to stage names). There is a long tradition dating back at least to [[e.e. cummings]] of using lowercase, and it presents as significantly less self-aggrandizing than all-caps. I see this as akin (though not perfectly so) to the capitalization exceptions we make for [[iTunes]] and [[eBay]]. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 19:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
**Cummings never wrote his name that way. Others merely wrote it that way because he rarely used capitalization in his work.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 21:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''oppose''' See above debate, [[WP:MOSCAP]] -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 20:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''oppose''': This has already been established as the case for all lower case names and set up as an exception per previous consensuses.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 21:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''oppose'''. referenced as lowercase everywhere. <span style="text-transform: lowercase;">[[User:Alarbus|Alarbus]] ([[User talk:Alarbus|talk]]) 22:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)</span>
::So the ''[http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/k_d_lang/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=K.D.%20Lang&st=cse The New York Times]'' doesn't count? I was sure this nomination would get some kind of reaction. But it doesn't look anyone bothered to read it. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 23:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Comment.''' The singer has trademarked the name in the form "k. d. lang". So "k. d. lang" is indeed a trademark, and when ''used'' as one, attracting the rights that trademarks are intended to confer (in commercial or public life), it therefore comes under [[WP:MOSTM]]. But the story is complicated. That MOS page includes these provisions (beyond what has already been pointed out above):
:*Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names
:*Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official"
:*Trademarks rendered without any capitals are always capitalized
:So ''if'' we are citing the form "k. d. lang" as it is used in commercial or public life, and ''if'' that is truly the relevant consideration, then clearly the title ought to be "K. D. Lang" ("Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if ...").
:This argument is not to be dismissed lightly. At a recent RM, [[Bollinger Bands]] was kept capitalised ("Bands") at the insistence of Bollinger himself, on the basis that it happened to be recently trademarked (though it is a generically used technical term that the article did not even mention was trademarked). From this and some other recent cases, it seems that there is a job of clarification to do at [[WP:MOSTM]].
:<font color="blue"><big>N</big><small>oetica</small></font><sup><small>[[User_talk:Noetica |Tea?]]</small></sup> 06:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – per [[MOS:TM]], even though it's not perfect. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 07:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': We should be using MOS to ensure articles are written in a suitably consistent style, not as an excuse to amend people's identities. It's her stage name - WP:V is a policy, MOS is a guideline. [[User:Ben MacDui|<font color="#6495ED">Ben</font>]] [[User talk:Ben MacDui|<font color="#C154C1">Mac</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Ben MacDui|<font color="#228B22">Dui</font>]] 12:45, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Is there an [[Wikipedia:Creep#Avoiding_instruction_creep|actual problem]] here? No. It's widely known that the singer in question styles herself "k. d. lang"; what's the problem with using this style in Wikipedia? Equally, if the article had been titled "K. D. Lang", would that be an actual problem to be changed the other way? No. This discussion is just another example of a desire to impose unnecessary conformity. If all the time that editors spend arguing about fringe matters of style were spent on creating and correcting content, Wikipedia would be much better. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 12:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:*I think I answered these questions already in the nomination. Yes, it's creating a problem. The problem is not so much with the article title itself, but rather the fact there is a special loophole in the guidelines tailored to this article. This allows editors to argue that if Lang can have her lowercased initials, celeb X should be able to have his all caps/numeral/dollar sign whatever. There are three separate guidelines that stipulate standard capitalization for musician names in article titles. So there are plenty of instructions already. All that needs to be done is to remove the language that creates the loophole. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 13:35, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::*<font color=green>Yes, it's creating a problem.</font> No, at most it creates a ''potential'' problem. There's no actual problem. So there's no need for any change. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 14:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:::*At any rate, the argument is one that several editors are currently deploying. Otherwise, I would never have heard of this singer or article. There are certainly plenty of sources to justify moving the subject's name to the proposed form. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 14:53, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::::*I don't see the problem with drawing a line between respecting an artist's desire to have her personal name lowercased, and accommodating similar requests for uppercasing or special characters. That may not be where some people want the line drawn, but it's where the line has been for a long time. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 15:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::*''"Is there an [[Wikipedia:Creep#Avoiding_instruction_creep|actual problem]] here?"'' Yes. Either a reader is familiar with K.D. Lang or is not. For readers familiar with her, there is little potential for confusion if her name is capitalized (i.e., there are no other K.D. Langs). However, for readers unfamiliar with her, a lowercase personal name in English is incongruous at best and confusing at worst. There is a reason Wikipedia has a style manual: to reduce confusion and reach as broad an audience as possible, not just readers of a certain age, background, or nationality (see the intro to [[WP:MOS]] as well as [[WP:BIAS]]). Cutesy typography, even if temporally and geographically appropriate, is not worthy of a general reference work with a worldwide purview. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Georgia">&nbsp;'''AjaxSmack'''&nbsp;</font></span>]] 19:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. The use of the "consistency" argument as a tool to fix a "[[WP:IDONTLIKEIT|I Don't Like It]]" is inappropriate. Consistency is to use the name of the artist as used by the artist. -- [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 17:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per nom, in particular the citation: ''"occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently".''[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ProperNames/ProperNames21.html] Wikipedia has a style manual — let's use it. In addition, Wikipedia is a serious general reference that strives to present a wide scope of information to a worldwide audience (see also [[WP:BIAS]]) It is not a fansite or even a music encyclopedia (cf. [[Allmusic]]) so it should eschew nonstandard typography that serves to obscure the nature of the subject to a reader unfamiliar with it. — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"><font face="Georgia">&nbsp;'''AjaxSmack'''&nbsp;</font></span>]] 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
**Indeed, we do have a rule that we apply consistently. It's a policy, at [[WP:COMMONNAME]], and it takes precedence over guidelines such as the MOS. [[User:TechnoSymbiosis|TechnoSymbiosis]] ([[User talk:TechnoSymbiosis|talk]]) 22:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support''' It is less-than-encyclopedic to be using stylized forms of stage names such as “k.d. lang”, “[[Misha|Mi$ha]]” and [[Eminem|EMINƎM]]. More encyclopedic titles for this particular entertainer are “Kathryn Dawn Lang” or “K.D. Lang”. Search-field entries such as “k.d. lang” can simply redirect. This isn’t about picking on Kathryn or her fans, but in properly addressing the concerns of fans and certain editors active on articles for ''other'' entertainers. These people, faced with push-back on having titles with stylized stage names, question what they perceive as a double standard. [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 02:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Ke$ha]], not Mi$ha]]. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' "k.d. lang" is correct. "K.D. Lang" is not correct. There is no justification for misspelling a person's name. [[User:Chrisrus|Chrisrus]] ([[User talk:Chrisrus|talk]]) 05:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' Popular music is an odd intersection of art and commerce, where "breaking the rules" is accepted practice. It is also accepted practice here at Wikipedia, per [[WP:IGNORE]]. We should be embracing complexity and reflecting it accurately, not working to over-simplify and whitewash over it. We need to leave this article name alone, strengthen the "loophole" that has got some of y'all's undershorts into uncomfortable positions, and then rename [[Kesha]] to [[Ke$ha]] just to prove the point. Otherwise, we'll be on the slippery slope toward renaming [[Madonna (entertainer)]] to [[Madonna Ciccone]] because "any reasonable person would expect her to have a last name." -- [[User:Foetusized|Foetusized]] ([[User talk:Foetusized|talk]]) 15:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''', the MOS is a guide intended to help present information consistently, it is not a purpose or goal in and of itself. The authors of the Chicago MOS, which our MOS aficionados appear to hold in high esteem, state that if a MOS interferes with the presentation of accurate information, the MOS should be disregarded. The 'problem' as described is also a red herring. Unusual capitalisation of the name of an individual or product is not confusing to the majority of the English-reading public, because the majority of sources outside Wikipedia don't worship their own style guides as badly as Wikipedia does. People are accustomed to seeing unusual capitalisation in names, and it's not Wikipedia's purpose to serve itself in the face of common usage. [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and [[WP:V]] both apply here, Wikipedia should not be altering the capitalisation (and thus the meaning) of names in this manner. [[User:TechnoSymbiosis|TechnoSymbiosis]] ([[User talk:TechnoSymbiosis|talk]]) 22:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
:*How many times do I have to ask people to read the nomination? Next time, I'll try using hieroglyphics. There are authoritative sources that give the subject's name in the proposed form. It is certainly verifiable. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 03:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
::*I read the nomination and I'm well aware some sources use name-casing. Did you read the link two words prior to [[WP:V]] in my response that mentioned [[WP:COMMONNAME]], part of our [[WP:AT]] policy? [[User:TechnoSymbiosis|TechnoSymbiosis]] ([[User talk:TechnoSymbiosis|talk]]) 05:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
:::It's odd to invoke COMMONNAME, implying that you think that k.d. lang and K. D. Lang are not the same name. I believe the rest of us see it as a styling question, since sources, including here trademark registration, make it clear that they are the same name. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
::::They're not the same name. I've stated numerous times in the past, including directly to you, Dick, that capitalisation alters the meaning of words. Capitalisation is not, nor has it ever been, a purely stylistic concern. You're welcome to speak for yourself on what you see as a styling issue, naturally, and I think others can speak for themselves. [[User:TechnoSymbiosis|TechnoSymbiosis]] ([[User talk:TechnoSymbiosis|talk]]) 22:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I already opposed, but if anyone, including [[WP:RS]]es upon which the article is based, spells her name "K.D.Lang", they are wrong. The proper spelling is "k.d. lang" because that's how she spells it.

In English, individuals determine the correct spellings and pronunciations of their own names. If other sources want to ignore that and spell it wrong, that's their decision and their right. You have a right to be wrong, but you're still wrong. I don't want Wikipedia to spell her name wrong, and you'll never get consensus to change it to K.D. Lang because I'm not the only English speaker on Wikipedia that cannot be swayed from this conviction despite your rational, coherent logic that we should spell it "K.D. Lang". Thanks for opening this thread 'cuz it's been fun, I understand how you feel about what guidelines say and all, but this proposal has lost. [[User:Chrisrus|Chrisrus]] ([[User talk:Chrisrus|talk]]) 23:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
:Chrisrus, this is just a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&diff=470066398&oldid=470064608 self-admitted crusade] on Kauffner's part to eliminate any sort of leeway in [[MOS:TM]] and the other manuals of style when it comes to people's stage names. Kauffner, Dicklyon, and Greg L are simply editors who think that the manual of style is a set of rules written in stone. I believe they are seeking to make a [[WP:POINT|point]] after I attempted to get some clarity at [[WT:AT#Names of individuals]] over the apparent kerfluffle I started when I requested that [[Kesha]] be moved to "Ke$ha", with an RM at [[DJ OZMA]], based on the fact that this page is at [[k.d. lang]] and we have pages like [[bell hooks]], [[brian d foy]], and [[will.i.am]]. I believe everyone in here should add their opinion to the discussion at WT:AT, because this very vocal minority of 3 editors should not be the ones to enforce a set of guidelines as unbending rules, such as Greg L's insistence that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&diff=469430185&oldid=469429250 "<nowiki>[he] can only assume that a bat-shit-crazy, rabid following on [k.d. lang] established a local consensus in violation of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS</nowiki>"].—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 23:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
:Yeah, I was thinking about that; that's the most important thing, IMHO, if it's true: is there wording in the style manual that we could call for shortand "the k.d. lang exception"; to clarify that the correct spelling of someone's name is determined not by us but by the person in question? Let's fix that. [[User:Chrisrus|Chrisrus]] ([[User talk:Chrisrus|talk]]) 04:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
::Spelling is not in question here, just styling. The trademark "k.d. lang" is registered to an individual named K. D. Lang according to the US PTO. But like most outfits, they probably have no idea how people want their names styled, and they probably store it without a case distinction and then reproduce it using standard rules for names. Or maybe they do store it with case, and that's the way she wrote it on her application. Don't really know. But it's her trademark and she's free to style it as she likes. Personally, I'd prefer that WP style it more normally, but I'm more willing to tolerate these lowercase names than all-caps names. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 06:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
:::It doesn't matter if it's a trademark. It's how they write their name. Why should we, as an encyclopedia, change this?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 06:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
{{od}}
Because *facts* ''(*sound of audience gasp*)'' matter, as do proper encyclopedic practices. K.D. Lang [http://guaranteedautographs.com/laklisiaupop.html '''''doesn’t''''' write her signature like our article currently has it.] As you seem to earnestly desire (do as they actually write their name); I’m all for it. If ''don’t'' actually mean “how they write their name” and instead mean “write it as their publicist and agents demand it be formatted for commercial and promotional purposes,” then no, I disagree with you; Wikipedia is an ''<u>encyclopedia</u>'', not a vehicle for her promoter. [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 20:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
:I don't see why we needed to outdent that, but enough on that tangent, and that does not seem to be a recent photograph or autograph by the woman, and enough on that tangent. Whatever the fact of the matter is, reliable sources and the subject (whether herself or her publicists actions) refer to the subject as "[http://www.kdlang.com/bio k.d. lang]" and not "K.D. Lang" or any other variation, regardless of it existing as a trademark or not.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 21:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
::Quoting you: {{xt|Whatever the fact of the matter is}}, well… I wouldn’t want to inconvenience you with “whatever the facts are” or anything so onerous. I’ve seen this sort of debate tactic before, where ample evidence is presented to disprove a point you raise, only to be countered with a *new and improved* reasoning du jour (also known as “catch me if you can”). Doesn’t impress. [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 22:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
:::If everything from her or her camp uses the name "k.d. lang", why should we switch to a house style? This is the form accepted under the current capitalization policies and guidelines. Why should a bunch of MOS warriors such as yourself and Kauffner who refer to the situation on this page as "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&diff=469430185&oldid=469429250 bat-shit crazy]" or refer to the endeavour as "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&diff=470066398&oldid=470064608 a war]" suddenly decide to change the status quo? There was a decision made on this page ages ago to use lang's preferred form, or at least the form that is used to refer to her all over. All of the arguments towards moving this page are along the lines of "I don't like how this page is an exception to the norm" instead of allowing the exception to the norm for capitalization when [[Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Mixed or non-capitalization|it's already written in the manual of style to allow it]] and it's been that way since [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters&diff=131928422&oldid=131791679 2007]. Clearly there's an allowed site-wide consensus for this title, the title of [[brian d foy]], and the title of [[bell hooks]], and not the "bat-shit-crazy, rabid following [that] established a local consensus" as you referred to it, Greg. And while we're on that topic, the Chicago Manual of Style allows this kind of stylization: {{cite news |author=Dinitia Smith |title=Tough arbiter on the web has guidance for writers |work=The New York Times |quote=But the Chicago Manual says it is not all right to capitalize the name of the writer bell hooks because she insists that it be lower case. |url=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/books/28chic.html}}.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 23:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::Every RM is a proposal to change the consensus and status quo. CMOS gives "bell hooks" as an example of an "unconventional spelling", i.e. an exception to the rules. They don't have a special rule about lowercasing names equivalent to ours. If this article was doing its "local consensus" thing, I would never know or care about it. The idea here is get the "k.d. lang exception" out of the guideline before someone tries to add a [[Kesha|Ke$ha]] exception, [[Pink (singer)|P!nk]] exception, [[Melody Miyuki Ishikawa|melody.]] exception, EMINƎM exception, [[Seven (South Korean singer)|Se7en]] exception, [[Talk:DJ_OZMA#Requested_move:_DJ_OZMA_.E2.86.92_DJ_Ozma|DJ OZMA]] exception, or other such nonsense. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 03:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::But this "k.d. lang exception" has existed for 5 years on the English Wikipedia and exists within the CMOS as well. Clearly, the site-wide consensus on the English Wikipedia is that the "k.d. lang exception" is already in force, and allows for other pages like [[bell hooks]], [[brian d foy]], etc. It is already entrenched in our house style and this is just a knee jerk reaction to my [[WT:AT]] thread seeking to get the status quo on all stylizations to change. This is, as you put it, a "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles&diff=470066398&oldid=470064608 war on clownishly capitalized and punctuated celebrity names]", after all.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 04:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::There is no K. D. Lang exception in CMOS, no general exception for lower-cased names. Only bell hooks is mentioned as an exception to the rule. “Occasionally a celebrity can get away with demanding special treatment, but since editors cannot know the personal preferences of every person, we prefer to follow a guideline and apply it consistently."[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ProperNames/ProperNames21.html] [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 05:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
::::The simplicity of this is being bogged down with too much camouflage and spurious issues. The article states this fact: {{xt|known by her stage name '''k.d. lang'''.}} Hmmm… “'''stage name''',” huh? Well, [http://www.eminem.com/ EMINƎM] also prefers that particular form for ''his'' stage name. Yet we don’t use that stylization here. Why not? To seize your reasoning right from your very fingertips, I could write {{xt|If everything from his camp uses the name "EMINƎM", why should we switch to a house style?}} Marshall Bruce Mathers{{nbsp}}III (a.k.a. Eminem) might legitimately visit Wikipedia and wonder “Why do I suck?!?” The answer, of course, to why we ought not use vanity (“see me… I’m *special*”) stage styles is “Because Wikipedia is an ''encyclopedia'' and is not MTV, nor is it a black-light poster in the bedrooms of [http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/beavis-butt-head-20100714-153552.jpg Beavis & Butthead.] Moreover, ''even a rapper'' probably has fancier footwork than K.D. Lang; I went to one of her concerts and she clomps around on stage like [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGQwUS73pVg&feature=related Herman Munster.] So I see can perceive zero justification for the double standard and see every reason for consistently using normal English conventions. [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 00:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::I don't see Eminem referring to himself with the backwards E anywhere other than in his logo and he doesn't go out of his way to include the backwards E in print material [http://www.eminem.com/news/default.aspx?&in=14 like this]. And as I pointed out in my last post, the Chicago style guides allow all lower case names, meaning "k.d. lang" is no more special in these regards, as she is included amongst people such as [[bell hooks]], [[brian d foy]], [[will.i.am]], [[apl.de.ap]], etc.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryulong</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="Gold">竜龙</font>]]) 01:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::I see can perceive zero justification for any double standards and see every reason for consistently using normal English conventions. And that means that if the majority of English-langauge RSs don’t use Japanese diacritics, then Wikipedia ought not either. English is English and it is not within the proper purview of [http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/comfortable_nerd.jpg mere wikipedians] (I’m not suggesting that’s you by any means) to exploit Wikipedia as a tool in hopes of effecting change in how the English language is actually practiced. You seem to think using a non-conventional stylized “stage name” (along with [[Ke$ha]] and the many other “I am *special*” entertainers who are full of themselves) is encyclopedic. Just pardon me all over the place and allow me to disagree. M’kay? As I wrote above, K.D. Lang [http://guaranteedautographs.com/laklisiaupop.html '''''doesn’t''''' write her signature like our article currently has it.] When I saw that your response to that was a [[Falsifiability|non{{nbhyph}}falsifiable]] …{{xt|does not seem to be a recent photograph or autograph by the woman}}, I realized it was pointless further trying to debate anything with you. [http://www.adlantic.com/HughBeaumont.jpg Goodbye and happy editing.] [[User:Greg L|Greg L]] ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]]) 01:13, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Are you trying to use that autographed photograph to argue that k.d. lang capitalizes her name when she signs it? Because I certainly don't see it. The 'l' looks lower-case to me, and the 'd' is certainly not capitalized. The 'k' is disputable, but the difference between a capital 'K' and a lower-case 'k' are pretty minimal, and when examining handwriting, I just don't see your argument. -- [[User:Irn|Irn]] ([[User talk:Irn|talk]]) 06:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::[[http://guaranteedautographs.com/laklisiaupop.html|Here]], as all can see, she writes it '''“Kd lang”''', in which the first two letters are united, the last three are united, and it also it should be noted that she fudges the “n”. Look at it along with me: http://guaranteedautographs.com/laklisiaupop.html
:::::::::The first letter is a K, uppercase. First, it’s very large compared to the rest of the signature. Second, while the point where she starts the second stroke of the K isn’t exactly as high as the first, it’s pretty darn close. And very close to the top points of the other top risers of the signature, those of the lowercase “d” and the “L”. The second stroke of a lowercase “k” doesn’t start so high.
:::::::::Definitely an uppercase “K”, but it’s unusual in that the second stroke ends up instead of down, and this is clearly because she’s going to begin her “d” with the same stroke.
:::::::::She finishes the letter “d” with a separate stroke. As anyone can see, this is a lowercase “d”. “Kd”, the second stroke of which is the last stroke of a K and the first stroke of a “d”. Vertical stroke, finishthe”k”startthe”d”, vertical stroke, Kd. No doubt at all.
:::::::::Does she always sign her name this way?
:::::::::Then it’s a uppercase “L”, but here you have to look closely and carefully to notice. But while the lowercase “l” is simply a vertical line, she clearly ends it with a horizontal bit. It’s small but noticeable. If you look very closely it actually turns up a bit at the very end. Lowecase “l”s don’t have those. Do you see it?
:::::::::She does the last three letters in one stroke, fudging the letter “n” badly. She really didn’t write that letter clearly at all, so much so that without the context a person might not be able to read the word.
:::::::::This signature obviously says “Kd Lang" http://guaranteedautographs.com/laklisiaupop.html. [[User:Chrisrus|Chrisrus]] ([[User talk:Chrisrus|talk]]) 07:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


*'''Support''' not using vanity decapitalisations, like we don't use vanity capitalisations. --<small>[[User:Ohconfucius|<span style="color:Black;font:bold 8pt 'kristen itc';text-shadow:cyan 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em;">Ohconfucius</span>]] [[User talk:Ohconfucius|<sup>¡digame!</sup>]]</small> 06:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''—As far as I'm aware, our guidelines permit the current form. However, there is a philosophy that to change the guidelines one ought to start at article talk pages in discussions like this and then change the guidelines to reflect what is happening on the articles themselves—I'd rather it was the other way around, but somewhere the logjam has to break. So I'll say here that I think ''style'' ought to be consistent across all of Wikipedia, and only things like the name itself and spelling should be determined by reliable sources. So we should use capitalization conventions on people's names, even if the people themselves and some RS don't. [[K. D. Lang]] is the result using that method, as far as I can tell. [[User:ErikHaugen|ErikHaugen]] <small>([[User talk:ErikHaugen|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/ErikHaugen|contribs]])</small> 22:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. There are good reasons for not allowing vanity capitalisations, and these same reasons apply to decapitalisations. The guidelines should be changed if necessary to indicate this. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 04:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

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"Lang" or "lang" in text?

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Coming here after a discussion at tatiana de la tierra ...

MOS:LCITEMS says "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference", according to which, as I read it, the surname should be "lang" not "Lang" except where it starts a sentence. This article seems to use "Lang" pretty consistently in the text. I haven't made any changes, as this is a high-profile article with which I have no involvement: I just bring it to your attention. Happy Editing! PamD 08:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Approbation of Leonard Cohen himself?

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Greetings - I have just read a YouTube comment (please, no eye rolls) that stated k.d.lang sang "Hallelujah" when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and that hers was his favorite version of the song. Is there any truth to this? If so, a brief mention would be good. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 12:27, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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