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Restructuring

The subsections U.N. condemnation, MacBride commission and Israeli Kahan commission are listed under the section "Postwar testimonies by Lebanese Forces operatives" despite having nothing (or very little) to do with the testimonies. I propose to restructure the article to move the postwar testimony paragraph to a subsection of "Role of various parties" and to rename the section about the UN condemnation and the two mentioned commissions to something along the gist of "International Response and Investigations".

Sharon libel suit

I think it is worth mentioning that Sharon pursued a similar suit against Time in an Israeli court, which was settled by both parties with compensation which was reported as substantial ("Neither party would disclose the amount of the payment, but the Israeli radio reported that the figure was substantial" - https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/23/nyregion/time-magazine-and-sharon-settle-the-libel-suit-he-filed-in-israel.html).

typo: Germanos' report says twenty children

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= oder |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

You could also add information from Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout's book but it's not necessary:

named, missing (persumed dead): "32 females (women and young girls)" p. 292
female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.292)
for children she says "In List 3, age is only sometimes mentioned: for 585 victims out of a total of 906. Of these, children account for 108 (18.46%)." (p. 292)

List 3 are those named and confirmed dead.

Why it should be changed:

typo. The linked source says twenty but an editor must've misread tweleve.

References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.291 not p. 292). sorry. "in List 3, they totalled 201 (22.18%)."

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

here is the source (it's currently linked in the article), showing they are 20 not 12 kids in the report: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@thetechie@enwiki what do you mean? The current version of the article says 12 but links a source that says 20 children.

here is the source, that the article is currently using: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 07:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will let someone else re-open if they wish. Do not re-open the request. Archive.org usually isn't reliable. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@thetechie@enwik ah I see the confusion.

archive.org is not the source, the source is the book: Israel's lebanon war by Ze'Ev Schiff.The book is available online on archive.org for free, namely page 282. (archive.org is never a source, it's an archive of documents. the archived document can be reliable or not)
This book is already being used in this section of the article to reference this specific claim. An editor just made a mistake. The phrase reads "includes fifteen women and twenty children" but they misread it and wrote 12 in the wikipedia article.
Regarding the other details, they are not necessary. They are from "Sabra and Shatila: September 1982" by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout if anyone wants to improve the next bullet point.

Please reopen the request, so someone more familiar can handle it. Thanks. Bowad91017 (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTechie re-pinging since the first ping was a typo, sorry Bowad91017 (talk) 20:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done ✅ IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll changes

I changed the estimated death toll from 700 minimum to 1,300, as the 700 number is from Israeli state estimates, not an RS. Per the RS cited in the 'Number of victims' section of this article, 1,300 is the lowest estimate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the due diligence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

I undid this revision by @TRCRF22 because I believe this event is frequently characterized by the majority of sources as a massacre but not as a “genocidal massacre”. There are accusations of genocide, but it is not the preponderance of reliable sources. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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+{{WikiProject Lebanon|importance=Low}}
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-| b5 <!--Supporting materials   --> = <yes/no>|organizedcrime=yes|organizedcrime-imp=Low}}
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@@ Line 39: / Line 32: @@
+== typo: Germanos' report says twenty children ==
-== Elie Hobeika ==
-There needs to be an emphasis on how Elie Hobeika's forces were the perpetrators throughout the text. The blame should not be put on the [[Lebanese Front|Lebanese Front]] organization collectively! [[User:Prodrummer619|Prodrummer619]] ([[User talk:Prodrummer619|talk]]) 13:10, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
+{{Edit extended-protected|Sabra and Shatila massacre|answered=yes}}
-== Fix citation ==
+<!--Don't remove anything above this line.-->
-On section "Ariel Sharon's "personal responsibility" for massacre", the cited quote is wrong.
-Sentence should be changed from:
+* '''What I think should be changed (format using {{tl|textdiff}})''':
+{{TextDiff|Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and 12 children.)|Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and 20 children.)}}
+You could also add information from  Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout's book but it's not necessary:
-The [[Kahan Commission]] concluded Israeli Defense minister Sharon bore personal responsibility "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed."
+* named, missing (persumed dead): "32 females (women and young girls)" p. 292
+* female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.292)
+* for children she says "In List 3, age is only sometimes mentioned: for 585 victims out of a total of 906. Of these, children account for 108 (18.46%)." (p. 292)
+List 3 are those named and confirmed dead.
-to:
-The [[Kahan Commission]] concluded Israeli Defense minister Sharon bore personal responsibility "for having disregarded the prospect of acts of vengeance and bloodshed" and "for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre."
+* '''Why it should be changed''':
-See page 282-283 of the citation source: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa0000schi/page/282/mode/2up?view=theater [[User:Slavery-slasher|Slavery-slasher]] ([[User talk:Slavery-slasher|talk]]) 16:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
+typo. The linked source says twenty but an editor must've misread tweleve.
-== Motive and Perpetrators ==
+* '''References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button)''':
-Currently the motive is given as "Assassination of Bachir Gemayel", it should read as "Response to assassination of Bachir Gemayel". Also should the motive be included in the infobox? It seems like it may be too complex/nuanced for the infobox, especially since it involved at least two different parties/perpetrators, presumably each with differing motives to some degree.
+[[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
-Also we may consider presenting the perpetrators section of the infobox as:
+<!--Don't remove anything below this line-->
+:* female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.291 not p. 292). sorry.  "in List 3, they totalled 201 (22.18%)."
+:[[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
+:here is the source (it's currently linked in the article), showing they are 20 not 12 kids in the report: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 [[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 01:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
+{{reftalk}}
+:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> <span style="font-family:monospace; font-weight: bold"><span style="color:ForestGreen">[[W:EN:User:TheTechie|<span style="color:Green">thetechie@enwiki</span>]]</span>: [[User talk:TheTechie|<span style="MediumBlue">~/talk/</span>]] <span style="">$</span></span> 03:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
+:@[[User:TheTechie|thetechie@enwiki]] what do you mean? The current version of the article says 12 but links a source that says 20 children.
-Lebanese Forces<br/>•Supported by Israeli Defence Forces
+:here is the source, that the article is  currently using: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 [[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 07:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
+::I will let someone else re-open if they wish. '''Do not re-open the request.''' Archive.org usually isn't reliable. <span style="font-family:monospace; font-weight: bold"><span style="color:ForestGreen">[[W:EN:User:TheTechie|<span style="color:Green">thetechie@enwiki</span>]]</span>: [[User talk:TheTechie|<span style="MediumBlue">~/talk/</span>]] <span style="">$</span></span> 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
+:::@[[User:Thetechie@enwik|thetechie@enwik]] ah I see the confusion.
+:::* archive.org is not the source, the source is the book: [https://books.google.de/books/about/Israel_s_Lebanon_War.html?id=z99HgBsKp3sC&redir_esc=y Israel's lebanon war by Ze'Ev Schiff.]The book is available online on archive.org for free, namely page 282.  (archive.org is never a source, it's an archive of documents. the archived document can be reliable or not)
+:::* This book is already being used in [[Sabra and Shatila massacre#Number of victims|this section of the article]] to reference this specific claim. An editor just made a mistake. The phrase reads "includes fifteen women and twenty children" but they misread it and wrote 12 in the wikipedia article.
+:::* Regarding the other details, they are not necessary. They are from "Sabra and Shatila: September 1982" by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout if anyone wants to improve the next bullet point.
+:::Please reopen the request, so someone more familiar can handle it. Thanks. [[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
+::::@[[User:TheTechie|TheTechie]] re-pinging since the first ping was a typo, sorry [[User:Bowad91017|Bowad91017]] ([[User talk:Bowad91017|talk]]) 20:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
+::Done ✅ [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 21:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
+== Death toll changes ==
-Rather than listing them both as "Lebanese Forces" & "Israeli Defence Forces (indirect)"
-[[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 00:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
+I changed the estimated death toll from 700 minimum to 1,300, as the 700 number is from Israeli state estimates, not an RS. Per the RS cited in the 'Number of victims' section of this article, 1,300 is the lowest estimate. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
+:Thanks for the due diligence. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 21:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
-Regarding this edit dispute [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1189918353]: Many/most Wikipedia pages for massacres don't include the motive parameter. Often it is something too complex to simply summarise and thus doesn't belong in the infobox, and it is unecessary to include in the infobox anyway. [[MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE]]: "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance."
+== Infobox  ==
-For example in this case, even <s>the lead of</s> this article includes the following regarding the motive: "Fawwaz Traboulsi writes that while the massacre was presented as a reaction to the assassination of Bachir, it represented the posthumous achievement of his "radical solution" to Palestinians in Lebanon, who he thought of as "people too many" in the region. Later, the Israeli army's monthly journal Skira Hodechith wrote that the Lebanese Forces hoped to provoke "the general exodus of the Palestinian population" and aimed to create a new demographic balance in Lebanon favouring the Christians."
+I undid [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre&diff=1214019052&oldid=1212868338 this revision] by @[[User:TRCRF22|TRCRF22]] because I believe this event is frequently characterized by the majority of sources as a massacre but not as a “genocidal massacre”. There are accusations of genocide, but it is not the preponderance of reliable sources. [[User:Wafflefrites|Wafflefrites]] ([[User talk:Wafflefrites|talk]]) 23:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
-@[[User:Skitash|Skitash]], [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 21:30, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
-== Whitewashing concerns ==
-'''Note that this is not an accusation, but a raising of concerns which I believe ought to be discussed'''
-Recent edits by [[User:Homerethegreat|Homerethegreat]] here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre&diff=1190747825&oldid=1190208214] (which were reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre&diff=1190761998&oldid=1190747825]) ''seem to be'' attempts to [[w:Whitewashing (censorship)|whitewash]] the role of the Israeli military in this event.
-I fear [[User:Homerethegreat|Homerethegreat]] may have [[WP:CONFLICTOFINTEREST]] or [[WP:ADVOCACY|political bias]] regarding this subject, specifically a pro-Israel bias. Recent contributions also seem to suggest this.
-Pinging @[[User:nableezy|nableezy]] as well, who reverted the edits.
-[[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 20:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
-Also note that "it is not a personal attack to question an editor about their possible conflict of interest on a specific article or topic", per [[WP:WIAPA]]. [[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] ([[User talk:IOHANNVSVERVS|talk]]) 20:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
-:Hey there, so the statement, especially its strong wording can be considered as casting asperations. However, I believe this stems from a misunderstanding. The sources <ref>[[Robert Fisk]], [https://books.google.com/books?id=VrXpeELOUNsC&pg=PA374 ''Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War''], Oxford University Press 2001 pp. 382–383.</ref><ref>[[William B. Quandt]], [https://books.google.com/books?id=-rmCPnSghbcC&pg=PA256 ''Peace Process: American Diplomacy and the Arab-Israeli Conflict Since 1967''], University of California Press p. 266</ref><ref>[[Yossi Alpher]], [https://books.google.com/books?id=eCxyBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA48 ''Periphery: Israel’s Search for Middle East Allies''], Rowman & Littlefield, 2015 p. 48</ref><ref>[[Nathan Gonzalez]], [https://books.google.com/books?id=HypnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA113 ''The Sunni-Shia Conflict: Understanding Sectarian Violence in the Middle East''], Nortia Media Ltd,  2013 p. 113.</ref> which were referred to as supporting the statement that Israel supported the massacre actually have no such wording. Since the sources do not support the statement that Israel supported the massacre and the several changes done in the past 2 months from what I saw that seemed to have changed the nature of the lead and led to what I described in my edit summary as - ''gross misrepresentation of historical events, oversimplifying narrative and ommitting important detail and context''.
-:It is important for the encyclopedia not to misinform the readers. According to sources as well as legally as per the Kahan commission, the Israeli military bears indirect responsibility, with Israel firing the Defense minister as well as holding personnel responsible for not having intervened.
-:Therefore, the sentences need to reflect the above, that the IDF holds indirect responsibility. However, not that Israel supported the massacre since that misinforms and implies that Israel supported the idea of massacring; that is counter to the sources. [[User:Homerethegreat|Homerethegreat]] ([[User talk:Homerethegreat|talk]]) 07:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-{{reflist-talk}}
-::As a random page watcher, the assertion that an editor having a political opinion/bias is tantamount to a [[WP:Conflict of interest]], if I'm understanding {{U|IOHANNVSVERVS}}'s argument correctly, is contrary to policy and should be stricken. Furthermore, evidence of any genuine COI (if it exists) would need to be presented in an appropriate administrative forum, rather than this talk page. Regards,[[User:TheTimesAreAChanging|TheTimesAreAChanging]] ([[User talk:TheTimesAreAChanging|talk]]) 08:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-:::Hello @[[User:TheTimesAreAChanging|TheTimesAreAChanging]] thanks for stopping by. I assume that @[[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] did not do this out of ill intentions and of course I'll be happy to work together on the issue of the discussion. If it's ok with @[[User:IOHANNVSVERVS|IOHANNVSVERVS]] I'll be happy if we can continue the discussion under a new topic title :). @[[User:TheTimesAreAChanging|TheTimesAreAChanging]] Thanks for stopping by. [[User:Homerethegreat|Homerethegreat]] ([[User talk:Homerethegreat|talk]]) 20:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::The claim that Israel did not support the massacre is completely fabricated and based on absolutely no sourcing. See for example
-::::*{{cite book | last=Lewin | first=Eyal | title=Ethos Clash in Israeli Society | publisher=Lexington Books | year=2013 | isbn=978-0-7391-8407-3 | url=https://books.google.com/books?id=LDXQAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA6 |quote=The Christians entered the Sabra and Shatila camps during the evening, and very soon the IDF was asked to help them by firing illuminating flares over the whole place. In spite of preliminary warnings and immediate reports that were forwarded to headquarters in real time, the IDF officers as well as the Israeli political leadership failed to restrain the Christian phalangists. For forty-eight hours the Christians massacred the Palestinians of Sabra and Shatila; the Israeli command turned a blind eye and ordered the IDF troops to keep the camps sealed from the outside and to continue firing illuminating flares.}}
-::::Israel provided support and cover for their allies who performed the massacre. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  22:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::: Exactly, and there are plenty of sources like that. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 23:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2024 ==
-{{Edit extended-protected|Sabra and Shatila massacre|answered=no}}
-Please change the highest estimated number of casualties from 3,500 to 4,500, as stated by [https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/AHRC48NGO68_210921.pdf this UN report]. [[Special:Contributions/5.61.122.219|5.61.122.219]] ([[User talk:5.61.122.219|talk]]) 13:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)