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Undue mentions

Not being selected in a country's 5G rollout is not due by itself in the lead. There was an edit conflict so I was not able to change things around exactly. Unrelated changes were also caught up in Amigao's revert. CurryCity (talk) 22:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Costa Rica's restriction [1] is not a ban to target Huawei because the new rule affects South Korea, Russia, Brazil and others based on a country's, not company's, position. CurryCity (talk) 23:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is still a restriction on Huawei, as explained quite well in the citation. We follow what the WP:RS says. Amigao (talk) 23:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a restriction or ban against Huawei specifically, therefore it is undue about Huawei. Here is the RS wording "5G company restrictions", "decree's ban applies to tech companies", "only firms based in nations endorsing the Budapest Convention on cybercrime will be eligible." The criterion is home countries' status, not Huawei. CurryCity (talk) 23:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source does appear to mention Huawei specifically. Perhaps it could use less weight, but it is in there. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You mention some edits where there is disagreement, and some edits that may have been erroneously caught up. What's the specific disagreement? JArthur1984 (talk) 23:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added this context. Perhaps it satisfies both of your positions. JArthur1984 (talk) 00:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and the Convention on Cybercrime is good context. Thanks. Amigao (talk) 00:06, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, glad I could help. JArthur1984 (talk) 00:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Huawei being left out of bidding is not by itself due for inclusion. We don't mention being left out of proposals on every company's article. Huawei should be at least a target, preferably named so we don't need to guess, by a ban or restriction for it to be included in this article, because it is really about the company, not about Costa Rica, China, some other national policy or broader topic. CurryCity (talk) 02:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Huawei is explicitly called out in those WP:RSs so no guesswork is needed. Amigao (talk) 14:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The section about Meng Wanzhou should be minimal because it is mostly about her case, the information is mentioned in other sections as well and has its own article. CurryCity (talk) 04:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Amigao, I also tend to think this section is too long, or at least has more citations than necessary. What do you see as the advantage to using the "Excerpt" format? JArthur1984 (talk) 15:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The extradition case of Meng Wanzhou lede needs some work, but the excerpt is far better than the prior summary, which was an extreme oversimplification of the matter. Amigao (talk) 15:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How does the excerpt format work from a technical standpoint? Does it automatically pick up changes from the lead of the page where the excerpt comes from? I.E. to trim material on this page it would have to be trimmed at the case page? JArthur1984 (talk) 15:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, you got the gist of it. See: Template:Excerpt. Amigao (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use of Template:Excerpt is fine. However I added back the following for context behind the extradition request: In December 2012, Reuters reported that "deep links" existed as early as 2010 between Huawei through Meng Wanzhou (who was then CFO of the firm) and an Iranian telecom importer named Skycom.^[1] The US had long-standing sanctions on Iran, including against the importation of US technology goods into Iran.^[2]^[3]^[4] ^[5] DunnsMainDeliFan (talk) 19:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Qiushufang (talk) 23:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would recommend that you include that context in the lede for extradition case of Meng Wanzhou instead and it would still appear in the excerpt. It's much cleaner that way. Amigao (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could put the excerpt in a sub-heading a level deeper since it is specifically about the extradition case. Amigao (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

~~Like how you implemented the excerpt in a sub-heading. DunnsMainDeliFan (talk) 21:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)~~ Blocked sock. Qiushufang (talk) 23:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the name of the last section because we have added different types of information there. CurryCity (talk) 07:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Stecklow, Steve; Rochabrun, Marcelo (16 September 2020). "Top Huawei executives had close ties to company at center of U.S. criminal case". Reuters. Retrieved 18 September 2020.
^ Reisinger, Don. "Huawei caught up in legal mess over cell equipment sales to Iran". CNET. Archived from the original on 7 April 2019. Retrieved 7 April 2019.
^ Warburton, Moira (28 May 2020). "Timeline: Key events in Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou's extradition case". Reuters. Archived from the original on 28 May 2020. Retrieved 15 June 2020.
^ Zhong, Raymond (7 December 2018). "Meng Wanzhou Was Huawei's Professional Face, Until Her Arrest". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 8 December 2018. Retrieved 8 December 2018.
^ Wakabayashi, Daisuke; Rappeport, Alan (5 December 2018). "A Top Huawei Executive Is Arrested in Canada for Extradition to the U.S." The New York Times. Archived from the original on 6 December 2018. Retrieved 6 December 2018.

Wiki Education assignment: Writing Workshop

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wikiallshi (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Wikiallshi (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Wearables"

Section only mentions the watch(es), but they do fitness trackers too. I really should downgrade this to C-class, but then again, I don't want to do WP politics. jae (talk) 18:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Stecklow, Steve; Rochabrun, Marcelo (16 September 2020). "Top Huawei executives had close ties to company at center of U.S. criminal case". Reuters. Retrieved 18 September 2020.

[Reuters-partner-2] Reisinger, Don. "Huawei caught up in legal mess over cell equipment sales to Iran". CNET. Archived from the original on 7 April 2019. Retrieved 7 April 2019.

[Warburton_2020-3] Warburton, Moira (28 May 2020). "Timeline: Key events in Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou's extradition case". Reuters. Archived from the original on 28 May 2020. Retrieved 15 June 2020.

[4] Zhong, Raymond (7 December 2018). "Meng Wanzhou Was Huawei's Professional Face, Until Her Arrest". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 8 December 2018. Retrieved 8 December 2018.

[auto6-5] Wakabayashi, Daisuke; Rappeport, Alan (5 December 2018). "A Top Huawei Executive Is Arrested in Canada for Extradition to the U.S." The New York Times. Archived from the original on 6 December 2018. Retrieved 6 December 2018.

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-==Nortel==
-The [https://www.afr.com/technology/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a source] actually says {{tq|Shields doesn’t know who hacked Nortel and doesn’t believe it was Huawei, at least not directly}}. I don't understand how a certain editor has been able to keep pushing an alternative version with misleading statements in the intro.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huawei&diff=next&oldid=1167173328][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huawei&diff=next&oldid=1167326983] [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 07:49, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
-:I am paywalled and can't read the source to check this myself and see what other context exists. A discussion of this also appears in the body. Unless there's some context I'm missing, your quote raises the question to me whether Shields should be in the article at all. [[User:JArthur1984|JArthur1984]] ([[User talk:JArthur1984|talk]]) 15:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
-:Which bit is misleading? [[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye's Back|talk]]) 15:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
-::They actually had a good relationship for some time, with Nortel outsourcing to Huawei a lot of work that was less profitable to do itself. The hack is widely believed to be from China but Huawei's part if any was very speculative. Nortel got into a lot of other mishaps,[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23743869] and the hack may not have been as game-changing as Shields has described. Some in the industry swear by the story, however, and it makes for notable headlines, so here we are. Reporters just don't bother interviewing most other workers. [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 22:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
-:::We don't say that they had a bad relationship the whole time. We cover those mishaps, we do not say that the alleged Huawei stuff was game changing. So what was misleading? [[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye's Back|talk]]) 21:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
-::::You and [[user:Jagmanst|Jagmanst]] wanted to include different versions of the text for different reasons, even though the source doesn't support either Nortel the company or its former employee attributing that hack to Huawei? [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 06:12, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::My view is the Huawei hacking Nortel claims are so speculative and lacking in evidence, it shouldn't even feature in the article, except perhaps to show an episode of media craziness. However at least some editors want to insert the claims into the article, in which case at bare minimum the claims should be stated accurately. [[User:Jagmanst|Jagmanst]] ([[User talk:Jagmanst|talk]]) 03:51, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::<del>It is likely that Huawei took advantage of the good relationship but need not speculate further. Sources speak for themselves. [[User:DunnsMainDeliFan|DunnsMainDeliFan]] ([[User talk:DunnsMainDeliFan|talk]]) 17:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-::::::We don't get to second-guess the reliable sources because we think that this is a case of "media craziness" (unless of course you have a RS which says that this is a case of media craziness) [[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye's Back|talk]]) 17:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::1) Not every unconsequential thing has to go into the article. Wild unsubstantiated speculations by one former employees does veer towards inconsequential. 2) If it must be included, then it should be stated accurately. No second guessing needed. [[User:Jagmanst|Jagmanst]] ([[User talk:Jagmanst|talk]]) 04:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
-::::::::We have significant coverage so it clearly wasn't unconsequential unless one wants to second guess the sources which covered it. [[User:Horse Eye's Back|Horse Eye's Back]] ([[User talk:Horse Eye's Back|talk]]) 18:52, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::More importantly the changes Dunns made re-introduced inaccuracies even taking the sources at face value. [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 07:18, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
-::::::::<del>The way that it has been presented in [[Criticism of Huawei]], where there are additional sources, shows that these charges of industrial espionage have factual basis rather than being media craziness. [[User:DunnsMainDeliFan|DunnsMainDeliFan]] ([[User talk:DunnsMainDeliFan|talk]]) 12:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-:::::::::It was not traced back to Huawei according to the sources here and on the criticism page. The onus is on you. Do not restore inaccurate information. [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 02:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
-::::::::::<del>This statement is well-supported:</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-::::::::::<del>''several rivals like [[Nortel]] and [[Cisco Systems]] have traced industrial espionage and intellectual property theft back to Huawei.<ref name="Kehoe">{{cite web |last=Kehoe |first=John |title=How Chinese hacking felled telecommunication giant Nortel |url=https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190607204151/https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a |archive-date=7 June 2019 |website=[[Australian Financial Review]] |date=26 May 2014 |access-date=7 June 2019}}</ref><ref name="bnnbloomberg.ca">{{Cite web |date=16 December 2021 |title=Chinese Spies Accused of Using Huawei in Secret Australia Telecom Hack |url=https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/chinese-spies-accused-of-using-huawei-in-secret-australia-telecom-hack-1.1697167 |website=[[BNN Bloomberg]] |access-date=8 May 2022 |archive-date=17 December 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211217193233/https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/chinese-spies-accused-of-using-huawei-in-secret-australia-telecom-hack-1.1697167 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref name="news.com.au">{{cite news |last=Chang |first=Charis |date=December 17, 2021 |title=Key details of Huawei security breach in Australia revealed |work=[[news.com.au]] |url=https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/key-details-of-huawei-security-breach-in-australia-revealed/news-story/ad329132e7b1d552ba1fb77fcc3f8714 |access-date=July 27, 2023 |archive-date=9 March 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220309134958/https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/security/key-details-of-huawei-security-breach-in-australia-revealed/news-story/ad329132e7b1d552ba1fb77fcc3f8714 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=Inside the Chinese military attack on Nortel |url=https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/ |access-date=2023-10-18 |website=[[Global News]] |language=en-US}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |last=Berkow |first=Jameson |date=February 25, 2012 |title=Nortel hacked to pieces |work=[[Financial Post]] |url=https://financialpost.com/technology/nortel-hacked-to-pieces |access-date=October 18, 2023}}</ref><ref name="WSJ 2019">{{cite news |author1=Dan Strumpf |author2=Dustin Volz |author3=Kate O'Keeffe |author4=Aruna Viswanatha |author5=Chuin-Wei Yap |date=2019-05-25 |title=Huawei's Yearslong Rise Is Littered With Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics |newspaper=[[The Wall Street Journal]] |url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/huaweis-yearslong-rise-is-littered-with-accusations-of-theft-and-dubious-ethics-11558756858 |url-status=live |url-access=subscription |access-date=14 June 2019 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190614010340/https://www.wsj.com/articles/huaweis-yearslong-rise-is-littered-with-accusations-of-theft-and-dubious-ethics-11558756858 |archive-date=14 June 2019}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last=Worth |first=Dan |url=http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2216692/cisco-upbraids-huawei-over-source-code-copying-claims |title=Cisco upbraids Huawei over source code copying claims |publisher=V3.co.uk |date=12 October 2012 |access-date=22 June 2013 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130303144133/http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2216692/cisco-upbraids-huawei-over-source-code-copying-claims |archive-date=3 March 2013 |url-status=live }}</ref>'' [[User:DunnsMainDeliFan|DunnsMainDeliFan]] ([[User talk:DunnsMainDeliFan|talk]]) 18:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-:::::::::::<del>It wasn't just the hack into Nortel that Brian Shields discovered, there was also the fibre card purchased from a Nortel facility in Texas that Huawei disassembled and reverse engineered. I'm not surprised that recent reverts have removed mention of the Texas incident. [https://nationalpost.com/news/exclusive-did-huawei-bring-down-nortel-corporate-espionage-theft-and-the-parallel-rise-and-fall-of-two-telecom-giants] [[User:DunnsMainDeliFan|DunnsMainDeliFan]] ([[User talk:DunnsMainDeliFan|talk]]) 19:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-::::::::::::That was a belief it is not due to be highlighted in the lead. [[User:CurryCity|CurryCity]] ([[User talk:CurryCity|talk]]) 05:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::<del>On one hand you wanted to highlight the Australian telecom hack in detail while omitting any mention of Nortel in the intro, although there are several instances of espionage that Nortel documented. [[User:DunnsMainDeliFan|DunnsMainDeliFan]] ([[User talk:DunnsMainDeliFan|talk]]) 13:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</del> <small>Blocked sock. [[User:Qiushufang|Qiushufang]] ([[User talk:Qiushufang|talk]]) 23:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small>
-::::::::Not exactly sure what you mean by "taking the sources at face value." One is ''supposed'' to follow what multiple [[WP:RS]]s have reported. [[User:Amigao|Amigao]] ([[User talk:Amigao|talk]]) 18:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 == Undue mentions ==