Talk:Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart

Archive 1

Results on Req for Rev

Was recently delisted after months of being listed. Complaint was NPOV. This was not a very specific complaint - no instances or examples were given. I am requesting a review and comment so that it may be relisted if possible. --Overdubbed 11:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I would of cited some specific problems, except the entire article is basically one big problem. References are also rather sparse. Homestarmy 20:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I examined part of the article on the Elizabeth Smart talk page, if anyone wants to take a look. Homestarmy 16:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Remain delisted; renominate and put on hold: I have just taken a look at the page. The article has several problems:

1. Apart from a few external links, there are no inline references. Especially where quotations are included, we need to document them a bit more formally. Not to do so would be considered plagiarism in some circles. It is also not quite in keeping with WP:OR, WP:CITE and WP:V.

1. I agree that the language, in general, is not neutral. It makes value judgements and statements of facts without citing sources for them, and so has Wikipedia taking positions. For example, in the Abduction section, we state: "This backfired," "Mary Katherine pretended to be asleep," "The man threatened Elizabeth with a gun" and similar things. This, in part, is a language issue. Since this is an encyclpedia, we should be using summary style or news style. It's not that we should be including negative information, look to portray anyone badly, etc. It just we are a tertuary. We summarize or report the words of witnesses see Primary sources or the analysis of others. see Secondary sources. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 18:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Question: Did these actions NOT backfire? Didn't Mary Katherine pretend to be asleep? Didn't she say "The man threatened Elizabeth with a gun"? How are these not factual statements? I think the problem of language is your personal opinion and not a wikipedia standard. --Overdubbed 16:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

• After just reading the Abduction section, the article fails the criteria. Changes to make to that section :

• First of all, all the items in the list should be footnoted.
• POVness or needed cite :
  • Returning home, the family had evening prayers together and kissed each other good night.
  • By listening to the creaking floor as Elizabeth and the kidnapper walked, Mary Katherine thought she could tell where the kidnapper and Elizabeth were, so when it seemed safe she hopped out of bed to tell her parents, but froze in terror when she nearly ran into the abductor and Elizabeth as they seemed to be looking into her brothers' bedroom.
  • Although this caused some problems with crime scene contamination, it was never a major cause for problems in the investigation.
• Using the technology of the Internet and the media, the search for Elizabeth Smart moved into high gear., what is high gear?

  Endorse delisting. Lincher 23:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

GA review

There are more unreferenced statements (especially in the section Details of captivity but I, in good faith, believe that the reference section covers for them. In that light I would grant the GA status altough it has to go back for another round of GA candidacy. Lincher 17:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to do more work on it, but I wanted to see if your objections were handled. --Overdubbed 18:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

As I see the article now, the concerns have been handled and been taken care of. Lincher 23:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll drop by later to do a detailed examination of the article for you. This will take me out of the picture for reviewing the article, because it will make me something of a participant here.

Let me say that I appreciate the work that has been done here. None of my comments should be taken as personal or as suggesting that good work hasn't been done here. Please do not take them as such or feel you have to defend it. What is here may be fine in contexts other than an online encyclopedia. My comments are directed at trying to help you all bring the article to GA standards and wiki style, no more or less. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 11:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not insulted or upset by your comments. I am not the sole author of the article. I have considered the article to be in need of work for a while, particularly with references. But I do not generally agree about the concepts of "tone" that are raised. I think that an NPOV perspective does not have to be dry and lacking in narrative tension, which I think exists to a degree in the article.

I am also not concerned about whether the article is a "Good Article". It is so easy for it to be delisted that it is a meaningless designation. However, I want to handle the objections as much as I can. I look forward to your specific inputs. --Overdubbed 12:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

GA needs some improvement, without a doubt. I don't know about meaningless, but it really is a small encouragement. I'd like it to come to mean "you can trust the info here." That we are close to. It is still very easy to get on and off the list. Standards are climbing a bit, but more formality would not hurt it.

On the critique side, you all are, of course, welcome ignore it. It's just the way I see things. I think I'm fairly typical of a regular GA reviewer and my advice just may be helpful in reaching that status and beyond. If none of that matters, all I really care about is accuracy.

My observation on tone is simply, in my opinion, that an encylopedia article is not a dramatic piece. It is meant to convey information, no more or less.

I agree that the mission is to convey information. I do not agree that this is subverted by dramatic prose.--Overdubbed 01:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV issue is a different matter. The policy is there to make it possible to write on controversial topics, which this is not. Still, if we are going to have a standard, we should try to meet it. I'll go through the article from start to finish and detail my reactions here. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 13:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, for some people this can be a controversial topic. You may not be aware of this and that could color your review. --Overdubbed 01:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Detailed Discussion

Lead

The lead is well done, is in summary style and suitable for an artcle of this length. The only thing I would change is spell out "9" as nine, and that only because it looks kind of funny to me. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 13:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Although not in perfect form (very few anywhere in the Wiki are, so no biggie), the article is now fairly well cited. I'd add the site and database record title to note one. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 13:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to get the cites first and then perfect them later . I will also be citing in the rest of the article. I think perhaps it has too many footnotes, but I will put them in first and delete overuse or redundancy later. --Overdubbed 01:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Abduction

Unnecessary Detail

"Returning home, the family had evening prayers together and kissed each other good night.[4] As the family got ready for bed, Ed made sure the doors were all locked, but he didn’t turn on the alarm. "If the children got up and moved (in the night), it would set the alarm off. And so we just, we’re not going to bother with it," Lois later explained.[5]"

and later gave these hints as to what happened:

• A white man about the height of her brother Charles (5'8")[10] about 30 or 40 years old, wearing light colored clothes and a golf hat. [11] [12] (He was actually wearing black, did not have a golf hat and was 49).[13]
• He had dark hair, also has dark hair on his arms and on the back of his hands.[14]
• The man threatened Elizabeth with a gun[15] (it was actually a knife but Mary Katherine thought it was a gun).[16]
• When Elizabeth said "ouch" after stubbing her toe on a chair the man said something that sounded like: "You better be quiet, and I won’t hurt you."[17]
• She heard Elizabeth ask "Why are you doing this?" and though the answer was not clear Mary Katherine thought the answer might have been "for ransom".[18] [19]
• The abductor was soft-spoken — even polite, calm and nicely dressed.[20]
• Although the stranger spoke to Elizabeth quietly, Mary Katherine thought the kidnapper's voice seemed somehow familiar. But she couldn’t pinpoint where or when she had heard it.[21]
• She never got a good look at his face.[22] This fact was kept a secret by the police during the investigation.

It is acceptable to keep this detail in a GA article, but would not be in an FA. (see WP:FA)--CTSWyneken^(talk) 13:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe the detail is important. My insights into this are based upon constant interaction with a variety of people all over the internet who had opinions about this case, chiefly suspecting the parents but also suspecting others. This list of details was very important to these people and wikipedia says that the editor must consider the questions that a reader may have. So I do not agree that this is too much unnecessary detail. --Overdubbed 01:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV/OR Constructions

None in this section. Citations have resolved any present before. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 13:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful comments. --Overdubbed 01:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Article name and its appearance in categories

I came across this Elizabeth Smart page in a very odd and slightly disturbing manner. I was on the Category:Latter-day Saint musicians page, and was surprised to see Elizabeth Smart kidnapping listed there. My first thought upon seeing the listing was "what idiot had the poor taste to name their band something like that?" Thankfully, it's not the name of a band, but this really ought to be fixed. Elizabeth Smart is LDS, and is a musician, but she certainly doesn't go by the name "Elizabeth Smart kidnapping" as a LDS musician. She should either be removed from Category:Latter-day Saint musicians (she is by no means famous as a LDS musician, or as a musician at all), or this article needs yet another name change. To see Elizabeth Smart kidnapping listed alongside Warren Zevon and Mack Wilberg is just bizarre.

In fact, the title of this article becomes an issue with regards to all but one of categories it is included in. Any category that is comprised of a list of people such as Category:1987 births, Category:American children, Category:Kidnapped children, Category:Living people and Category:People from Salt Lake City should, I would think, only have the names of people included in them, not the name of an event. Obviously it wouldn't be too terribly shocking to see Elizabeth Smart kidnapping on the Category:Kidnapped children page, but it makes no sense for any of the other categories.

So I guess the issue here is: if this article is going to be referenced in both 'people' categories and 'event' categories, it needs a name that is appropriate for both. What was wrong with "Elizabeth Smart (kidnap victim)?" Not PC or something like that? How about "Elizabeth Smart (kidnapping survivor)?" --JenR 15:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be better placed using just her name. Obviously, the kidnapping would be a large part of the article, but other information could be added about her musical talents, etc., in order to flesh out the article a little more. I'm sure she'd prefer to not have everything in an article about her focus on only the event that made her name well known. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm just going to pull it out of the category -- I happened on this page the same way. If/when she makes a career as a musician, a general-purpose article about her (with music focus) would be appropriate for the category. But as it stands, her being a music major now is incidental to the main topic of this article. VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 15:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

What about this article's appearance in the other categories? If you read the middle paragraph of my initial post on the subject above and look at the other categories this article is listed in, the title is still an issue. In fact, it seems to me that to be a biography of a living person, the title should refer to the person as a person, not as an event. If Elizabeth Smart was notable for some additional reason, then it would be appropriate to have a page for her as a person and a page for the kidnapping event. But I think we can easily say that isn't the case at this time. Does anyone have an objection to changing the title to "Elizabeth Smart (kidnapping survivor)?" It's accurate and I don't think it could be considered offensive or non- PC. JenR 05:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Smart is not (in late 2006) notable as a musician. The only thing encyclopedic about her is as the victim of a notorious kidnapping. Gwen Gale 18:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Successful use of the internet?

One of the most important impacts of this kidnapping was the family's successful use of the media including the Internet. Numerous volunteers searched throughout many areas, coordinating their actions through a centralized web based search center. The case also helped publicize the AMBER Alert system. Daily media attention brought about much sensationalism and pundit speculation. Night after night, talk shows such as CNN's Larry King Live featured numerous commentators with one opinion or another regarding the kidnapping.

Did the family actually successfully use the internet or the media? As far as I can tell from a quick look through the article especially the timeline, whatever the family may have done it didn't actually do much. What lead the the breakthroughs in the case were: 1) The sister remembering the voice/who it was 2) The sketch resulting from 1 appearing on America's Most Wanted. I guess the second could be called a successful use of the media, but it doesn't appear to have to do with the internet at all. The Daily Media attentions and AMBER alert also doesn't really appeared to have done anything much Nil Einne 13:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a joke, right?=

This entry in the timeline is either a joke or vandalism, right?

"15 Jan. 2007 -- Elizabeth Smart undergoes plastic surgery to become a man"

I'll strike it out unless somebody says otherwise...

147.145.40.44 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

1. It is vandalism, as I can't seem to get to the right place to edit this... 147.145.40.44 22:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Not to be rude but you can't get a sentence without a citation. It's very well cited, yes, but over cited. Three through six are the same, and some don't have links. Do one cite for that, at the very end. If they don't have links, write "according to..." It makes my head spin.-Babylon pride 18:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Sadly, this article must go do to a ruling from administrator Newyorkbrad that names of minor sex assault victims must not appear on Wikipedia. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_May_28 John celona 23:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge

There isn't much here (and there isn't much to write about) except the kidnapping and its aftermath. Similarly the article Brian David Mitchell is only about the kidnapping because that is all there is to write about that individual. I have moved this article from the name of Elizabeth Smart to the name "Elizabeth Smart kidnapping", which was already a redirect to it, and I think we should turn this into a merge and redirect. This will allow us to concentrate all writing about the event in one place instead of having different, probably unbalanced, treatments of the same event in different articles. --Tony Sidaway 15:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reversed the move and added a tag for more input. I think the move was not smart. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sigh, now I have to revert all of those double redirects I fixed. :-( --Iamunknown 23:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, what the hell is wrong with you? The case is notable, the two people are notable for the cas,e but you insisit on presenting ti as a biography, to the extent of reverting a well-reasoned move. Why? What is the fucking point? The content is there, it's just that we don't pretend it's a biography, in line with the sources which also lead on the case. Are you ever going to get it— Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs)

If "getting it" is simply marching along with this nonsense, then no. Nice move protection, Doc. Way to force your way again.--badlydrawnjeff talk 23:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) On the whole, I prefer Elizabeth Smart (abductee) on the grounds of categorization above. Also, the two articles are largely disjoint, surprisingly so, and would be very long if merged. Tony, can you explain the advantages either of the merger or the name change at more length? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • And could we at least pretend to keep this civil? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Jeff this is an article about a kidnapping. You reverted a move without discussion, because you are now simply opposing every attempt to deal with biographical issues. I have protected this from further moves. If you think the move unwise, please give a full explanation of how Wikipedia is better served by having information about a kidnapping kept as a pseudo-biography.--Doc^g 23:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)