Talk:Church of Kish

Dispute about church

I also wanted to upload two pictures of the church but couldn't figure out how. Pls. help.

I removed POV claims included in the article with reference to Armenian sources. Please use reliable third party sources. It is well known that this church belonged to Caucasian Albanians and it had nothing to do with Armenia. Grandmaster 07:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, reliable third party sources are needed.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 14:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a source from Russian Ortodox Diocese in Baku which is neutral as it is non-Azeri.--Dacy69 15:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Added another ortodox affiliated source from Russian--Dacy69 15:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Whats random articles relating to the visit of Russian patriarch have to do with anything. They seem simple news articles, and please show where your quotes were proven, I couldnt find them skimming through the article. Also, the Russian Priest would not be able to speak freely in Azerbaijan or criticize them for obvious.

You have to stop calling them POV claims based on nationality of author or website. I thought we went through this on your arbitration cases :). The article is written by an expert on Armenian architecture who cites his sources.Hetoum I 18:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

what is you doing is pure vandalism and admin should take note. You removed 3 sources. It is not up to you to decide that russian ortodox sources are POV. BTW, information which you put on website contradict second sources listed in references. All sources, except Armenian, say it is Caucasian Albanian church.--Dacy69 19:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, you just beat around the bush instead of directly going to issue.

I did not say anything about Russian sources, so do not put words in my mouth. I found nothing relating to the citations it referred to in Russian articles. Show the citations for those statements! Hetoum I 22:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

1-[1] "На земле Азербайджана христианство появилось еще в апостольские времена. По преданию, первыми проповедниками там были святой апостол Варфоломей (здесь же и принявший мученическую смерть) и ученик апостола Фаддея – Елисей, которого местная традиция именует апостолом Албании" - In the land of Azerbaijan Christianity appeared long ago in time of disciples. According to historic narratives, first preachers were Saint Bartalomew and Faddey's disciple Euliseus, who is called Albanian bishop, according to locals.

В 2003 году албанско-удинская христианская община, возглавляемая Робертом Мобили, прошла государственную регистрацию. Это стало возможным после восстановления древнего Кишского храма в Шеки (по некоторым данным, фундамент его был заложен еще апостолом Елисеем). In 2003 Albanian-Udi christian community, led by Robert Mobili was registered by the state. It became possible after the restoration of ancient Kish temple in Sheki (according to some sources this was founded by Disciple Euliseus)

2- [2] "Так, христиане Баку свято почитают место мученической смерти апостола Варфоломея в Ичери Шехер, недалеко от Девичьей Башни. И одним из таких памятников, безусловно, является церковь Киш и результаты исследований, которые ведутся вокруг этого памятника, стали еще одним доказательством раннего бытия христианства на Кавказе... Что касается церкви Киш, то деятельность всех проповедников христианства связана со строительством новых храмов, и у нас в Азербайджане есть устойчивое предание, которое связывает церковь в селении Киш с именем св. Елисея, ученика апостола Фаддея." - Christians in Baku pay tribute to the place of martyr's death of disciple Bartalomew in Old City. And one of such monuments is certainly church in Kish and research done in this area proves the early appearance of christianity in the Caucasus... As far as Kish is concerned... there is certain historical narratives which connects chruch in Kish with St.Euliseus.

3- [3] Зарождение христианской общины на территории современного Азербайджана связано также и с именем св. Елисея...В Кише (сохранившемся до наших дней) Апостолом была построена церковь – «праматерь всех церквей на Востоке» - Birth of Christian community in modern-day territory of Azerbaijan is linked to St. Euliseus... In Kish the Disciple built a church (remained untill now) - "Mother of All Eastern Churches"

Such disputable articles should be written based on neutral sources. You are bringing definitely biased one - whether it is Armenian or Azerbaijani. And again - you are just distorting information. You put two references - one from Armenian site and another from Azerbaijani. Information which you've put in the article is based only on first one. Finally, Norway government would have never paid for restoration of the church and allowed to call it Albanian had it been Armenian one.--Dacy69 00:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum, you cannot base the article on Armenian sources, which have strong bias in this issue. Please find reliable thrid party sources. I don't think you would be happy if I use Azerbaijani sources to back up my edits to Yerevan or Zangezur. Grandmaster 04:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I also refer you to Wikipedia rules:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. [4]

The source that you used is neither third party, nor reliable. So please rv the article to the previous version and cite third party sources. Grandmaster 04:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Moses Kalankatuatsi the church in Gis/Kish was built by St. Eliseus:

Ученик же его, святой Елиша, возвратился в Иерусалим и рассказал соапостолам о вожделенном мученичестве его. Там, по внушению Святого Духа, Елиша был рукоположен [в епископы] святым Иаковом – братом Господним, первым патриархом Иерусалима. Затем, взяв себе в удел Восток, он из Иерусалима направился в Персию и, минуя Армению, пришел к мазкутам и стал проповедовать в [стране] Чола [***]. И в разных местах учил он многих, возвещая о спасении. Оттуда с тремя учениками он прибыл в гавар Ути, в город Саhарн [***], однако родственники их, некие безбожники, погнались за ними. Один из учеников его [попал к ним в руки] и принял от них мученическую смерть. А двое других оставили блаженного Елиша и пошли за надменными мужами – убийцами. Святой же епископ, прибыв в Гис, построил там церковь и отслужил обедню. На этом месте была основана наша, Восточного края, церковь. И стало [то место] духовной столицей и местом просвещения жителей Востока. Уходя оттуда [Елиша] проходил через небольшую долину Зергуни, где находилась жертвенница идолопоклонников, и там он принял венец мученика. И неизвестно, кем было совершено это злодеяние. В общую яму для приговоренных к смертной казни были брошены и благородные останки его и засыпаны на долгое время, в местечке, называемом hОмэнк [***]. [5]

And this is from the website of Russian orthodox church in Baku:

По традиции «местечко Гис» идентифицируется с селением Киш Шекинского района, а церковь, построенная Елисеем, идентифицируется с церковью селения Киш. Эта точка зрения подтверждается многими свидетельствами проповеди святого Елисея в левобережной Албании. Эта часть территории Албании в грузинских исторических источниках именуется Элисени. Многие церкви здесь носят имя святого Елисея. Конечно, современная постройка никак не может быть отнесена к столь раннему периоду. Однако, обнаруженные археологическими раскопками в церкви и на ее территории древние фундаменты, культовые погребения и утварь, говорят о том, что церковь стоит на участке, издревле почитаемом, и ее наиболее древняя постройка относится к первым векам по Р.Х.. [6]

Grandmaster 10:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

These are religious in nature sources from an institution located in Azerbaijan, thus their reliability is close to nil. To solve this problem the article needs sources by actual historians.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

One source is historic chronicle, and not all Russian sources from Baku Orthodox religous establishment. One is from Russian religous one. Dispute tag can remain for now, but reference tag should be removed.--Dacy69 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

First off, reach consensus before reverting. Second, I can cite reasons for why the sources your provide are NOT RELIABLE and MAY LACK CREDIBILITY. Baku diocese simply repeats claims of Azerbaijani "intellegentsia" and propaganda, which is made up and HAS NO REFERENCE sources. Similiarly, reading the Norwegians report, you see his NIL credibility as his work is marred by errors and he has no idea on dates. Armenian researcher article cites every comment he makes and is comprehensive. If we find an Azerbaijani source strongly citing references as did Armenian article. I will be willing to accept it.

Some of the claims you make are EXTRAORDINARY themselves, so lets not kid ourselves as well. First Caucasian Albanian church? Mother of God of all east?

So, lets take this a step at a time. First off, I approve of the Movses K. refewrence, only issue being the name of the saint. I googled the different versions we have been fighting over and found St. Elisha (Yeghishe) is correct name translation of the saint and most commonly shows up on internet hits. Hetoum I 04:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC) So, instead of you guys trying to edit war, lets try to take this one step at a time. First off, I am ok with the

The Armenian source should be removed from the article, it is not third party. Hetoum, check the rules, you cannot use that one here. All the claims based on that source should go as well. And Russian Orthodox Church is third party, it is not controlled by Azerbaijani government. Stop edit warring and do not make changes that have no consensus and are not supported by reliable sources. Grandmaster 05:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

SO WHAT IF IT IS NOT THIRD PARTY? Stop this RACISM! It cannot be reliable because it is Armenian and Armenians are LIARs right? WRONG! The author cites sourced and brings strong credibility?

What is credibility of the Russian Orthodox article? Did it CITE sources? Is it EXPERT on region? NO! You have to show better reason than that and just drop it because the source is Armenian and you DONT NOT LIKE what it says.

P.S. on the Movses reference you included, I checked, and I suspect this refers to a different locations.

The Confusion Respecting the Toponyms of Kish and Gis. Archbishop Sargis Jalaliants, a prominent topographer, was the first to muddle up the historical village of Kish with Gis_*1, but later the same confusion also occurred in other researchers' works _*2. Led astray by the phonetic similarity between the toponyms of Gis' and Kish,' they presented the history of Gis Settlement, Hayots Aghvank, as that of Kish Village, located in Boon Aghvank, thus giving rise to a lot of misunderstanding., thus giving rise to a lot of misunderstanding. B. Ulubabian was the first scholar to distinguish between Kish and Gis, taking into consideration the records provided by different sources _*3.

)

Hetoum I 21:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I remind you the Wikipedia rules again:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. [7]

We are not interested in what Ulubabian and other modern Armenian sources claim. Please find a third party source to support you claims and stop reverting the article without consensus on talk. Grandmaster 04:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It is amazing to see a newcomer to blame me in being inactive. Ulubabiyan has BIG conlfict of interest with given article. You are very welcome! --Ulvi I. 05:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I added info about the research by Norwegian scholars. Grandmaster 07:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I see you guys reverting without actually talking. First off, you must discredit Ulubabian for reasons other than his race. And I already cited why you cannot cite the Movses quote since KISH is different from GISH, see source.

Norwegian source can be cited for some things, but his work suffers from credibility since he makes numerous errors in his work, and is basically handed materials by his Azerbaijani Tatar colleague, and he fails to objectively analyze all sources on this topic. Also, Norwegians are known for supervising the destruction of Armenian inscriptions on ANOTHER Armenian church in Azerbaijan so he is not exactly impartial either. Hetoum I 04:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

That is "good reasoning". Norwegian and Russian orthodox sources are not impartial but Armenian is.--Dacy69 04:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You violate the rules, Hetoum. I already quoted the rules, you cannot use Ulubabian and other Armenian sources, they are not third party and have conflict of interest. Norwegians are perfectly neutral, and you cannot remove them just because you don't like them. Grandmaster 09:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum complaining about our indication of Ulubabian's ethnic origins and our suspicion that he would be biased in this issue, now uses extremely hateful racist expression about us - calling an Azerbaijani a "Tatar" a name given and used by Russian colonialists two centuries ago. You know what - Nizami Gandjavi too in one of his verses said his mother was "Gord", i.e. brave, the same thing as "Gordon", or "Gordiy" mean in Indo-European languages today, but we cannot prove until very today to the Iranian scholars who insist that Nizami meant "Kord", i.e. "Kurd" - ethnicity. Let's leave your "Gish" vs. "Kish" problem to where it belongs. --Ulvi I. 14:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

hmm, I thought Tartar was term commonly used by not only rest of world but by current people known as Azarbaijanis as well, anyhow, it really does not matter, if it offends, maybe I can use Caucasian Albanian or something :) - whatever you prefer. I am not one to spew racist comments, so sorry if this is what you interpreted ;) - I am better than this.

Actually Iranians make a point that Gord and Kord are not the same place like KISH and GIS are NOT same either. Is Armenians and Iranians liars together, or something wrong with revisionists? :)

I am not discounting the Norwegian not because I do not like what he is saying, but what he is saying is a WRONG interpretation and terminology. Anyhow, I will redo this article in the sandbox in detail to avoid this silly edit warring. :) Obviously, I wasnt clear enough on emphasizing misinterpretations of certain individuals.

I will deal with basic errors this silly Norwegian makes, and why his work lacks credibility. In the meantime, lets try to get an administrator into this as quickly as possible. Seems more than one are tryng to avoid this sticky icky. Cheers. Hetoum I 00:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I will remind you the rules again. You should use reliable third party sources, so Armenian online propaganda ones are not acceptable. I'm not using Azerbaijani sources either. You are not allowed to do any original research, so there's no way you can prove that Norwegians are wrong, unless there's some third party source that contests their findings. Take care. Grandmaster 04:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dedication

Is the church dedicated to some particular saint? --Ghirla^-трёп- 15:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The extraordinary assertion that the core of the church predates the Great Pyramid of Giza, needs to be substantiated by reliable academic publications. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The article actually says that the cultic site dates 3000 years, that's quite possible. The church itself was of course built much later. Grandmaster 06:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's interview with the Norwegian scholar who led the researches in Kish: [8]

He said, inter alia:

Generally, archaeologists can expect to find a reliquary (a box with a relic that relates closely to the person or the saint) buried underneath the church altar, especially if the place of worship has been named or dedicated after an individual or a saint. We found no such evidence at Kish. Instead, beneath the altar lay irrefutable evidence of an Early Bronze cultic sacrificial pit, yielding secrets of ceramic fragments, charcoal, charred bones and two skulls of sheep or goats. The carbon dating eventually yielded up the secrets of the pit, dating the contents to around 3000 B.C.

Grandmaster 06:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Rewrote - heavily sourced

Problems with sources.

Orthodox in Azerbaijan – This is not a center of udi culture. You lie and falsely misinterpret facts. Sentence says – restoration of church possible after registration of udi community. Whats this mean? It is a center of udi culture? Are there udis here? The Azerbaijan magazine says it will be a museum.

Baku Branch is also not free to speak because of religious danger and thread to them. Also, recent expansion of diocese might make it conflicting interest to call a place Armenian. Also, are they experts on architecture and history of the region? They sure as hell do not cite sources. Are they monks or reasearchers on the topic?

Also, no sources for dating of church in Norwegian article. They tested stuff buried in the church yard from 4500 years!!! All below church, no definite conclusion on date!!!! Also how can church from 13th century be Caucasian Albanian when they had disappeared from face of history by then.

Also, Norwegians not impartial, even they say themselves. This article cites info accurately, and takes care of Albanian construction fairy tales. Enjoy  Hetoum I 01:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

We have no reliable source to support the claim that church was Armenian. Stop inserting unreliable info. Grandmaster 06:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

page is vandalized by anon editor. It should be protected from anon contributors.--Dacy69 19:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice try calling it anon vandalism, you are the one removing sourced information. Sorry I did not log in, I was busy with other things in my life. Please revert to my version, I discussed all sides and cited sources. Cheers.Hetoum I 19:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed this issue previously. You need submit neutral sources.Moreover you are using incivil comments [9] that should be taken into account by admins. You just admit that these anon edits were yours but you forgot to login. It is rather strange you made 4 edits and all 4 times you forgot to login. --Dacy69 20:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Look stay on topic and stop barking like a dog at me, and on top of that making crap up. Who is the one on revert parole here? You! And are you trying to teach me to be civil in the meantime? Looks so! Wow, hypocrisy at its bets! I bow down to you.

And second, I didn't say I forgot to log in liar, I said I was too busy to log in with other things. My sources are fine, and unless you can find sources to contradict mine, my version should stay. I included your sources, and mentioned the errors they made. cheersHetoum I 23:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)