Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The Policies that most directly relate are: Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to WT:V.

Meltyukhov in general and his 'Soviet-Polish Wars' in particular

Mikhail Meltyukhov is a modern Russian historian, mostly unknown and uncited in the West (which is by no means a hint of his reliability or lack of it, most scholars from non-English speaking countries are unknown and uncited in the West; this only makes estabilishing their reliablity more difficult as it is hard to find reviews and commentary on them in English). His work Stalin's Missed Chance (from 2000, albeit due to poor reference formatting and my lack of command in Russian I cannot vouch for the data of publication) was apparently quite a hit in Russia, in has brought him to the attention of some Western historians. Later, however (2001?), Melt. published a book that has proven to be much more controversial: Soviet-Polish Wars. Political and Military standoff of 1918-1939. The book was first brought to our attention when User:Irpen started using it as a source about attrocities allegedly committed by the Polish Army during the Polish-Soviet War. Since those allegations were quite new to us, questions related to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and particulary Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources were raised. Two academic reviews in English were found, both very highly critical of Melt.'s work in general and this book in particular:

Peter Cheremushkin (from Moscow State University), Russian-Polish Relations: A Long Way From Stereotypes to Reconciliation, InterMarium Volume 5 (an academic journal of nstitute of Political Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences and Columbia University's East Central European Center). With reliability of author and publisher estabilished, let me bring a few quotes from the journal: p18: "Russian historians were unable to take a united stand against those who claim that “nothing wrong happened in Katyn.” Some historical publications have appeared in this context, such as a book by Mikhail Meltyukhov called Soviet-Polish Wars: Military and Political Confrontation in 1918-1939.42."[...] "This [Meltyukhov's - note by P.P.] point of view can be used to justify the execution of the Polish officers in 1940." [...] "But can this point of view be considered correct if it is so close to Stalinist and neoimperial concepts?"

Polish professor of Jagiellonian University, Andrzej Nowak, in his conference paper writes (p.9): "It would be possible to indicate various examples of more subtle apologias for the Empire, linked with the rejection of all arguments for its victims or critics. Examples which dress themselves in the trappings of the most academic monograph. [...] A more brutal example of the same tendency is expressed in the book by the professional historian from Moscow, Mikhail Meltyukhov, dedicated to the Polish-Soviet conflicts of the twentieth century. These conflicts are, for him, fragments of eternal Western aggression against Russia. When Russia (in this case, Soviet Russia) comes into conflict it is only to take what is rightfully hers. Stalin appears as a genial successor to Catherine II. The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and the involvement of the USSR in the attack on Poland in September 1939 are presented as purely defensive postures, underlining the primacy of Russian raison d’etat. This posture represented not only Stalin’s profound realism but also historical justice and even – argues Meltyukhov – humanitarianism. In this context the mass deportations of more than half a million people from the territory occupied by the Red Army in September 1939 to camps in the depths of the Soviet Union is presented as a “peacekeeping mission” which prevented the murder of those Poles deported to Siberia by protecting them from the Ukrainians panting with thirst for revenge...". Please also note a damning footnote: "M. Meltyukhov, Sovetsko-polskie voiny. Voienno-politicheskoe protivostoianie 1918-1939 gg., Moskva 2001 – compare my comprehensive review concentrating on the shocking falsehoods in this book – in: A. Nowak, Od imperium do imperium. Spojrzenia na historię Europy Wschodniej, Kraków 2004, p. 258-271."

In light of those two reviews, it has been proposed at Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Criticism and Talk:Mikhail_Meltyukhov#Request_for_positive_reviews_of_Soviet-Polish_Wars, that unless positive academic (and preferably Western) reviews of Melt.'s works are presented (or critical reviews of Cheremushkin and Nowak works as partisan are presented), Melt.'s works should not be used as references for alleged Polish attrocities in particular, and areas where his "Stalinist and neoimperial" bias can affect in general (or at least, that such bias should be noted in text). Since in two weeks since discussions at the above discussion page stopped no requested positive reviews have been presented, I would like to ask editors interested in reliablity whether they feel it would now be justified to remove the controversial references to Melt. from our project? Note that nobody is questioning the Melt's reliablity where the references to his work concern purerly military matters (numbers, dates, strategy), only where they concern the issue of national POV, neutrality and undue weight/fringe to controversial statements (ex. about Polish army alleged attrocities not confirmed by any other work).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Update. Nowak in his 2004 book in detail lists bias and inaccuracies concerning Polish-Russian relations in this book, primarily pointing out that Poland is always portrayed as an aggressor and many instances of Russian aggression toward Poland are ignored: Bar Confederation for him is not a 'pro-Polish independence movement' but only an 'anti-religious tolerance' one; for a comprehensive study of Polish-Russian relations, there is no mention of Polish-Russian War of 1792 nor of Targowica Confederation; in another example, he claims that 60,000 Soviet POWs died in Polish camps during the Polish-Soviet war, and all Polish POWs were returned safely - ignoring the recent finding of both Polish and Russian historians that for both sides, POWs losses were similar (15,000-20,000) (For more on this subject, see Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924) and Polish prisoners and internees in Soviet Union and Lithuania (1919-1921)); Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is declared non-infringing on Soviet-Polish Non-Aggression Pact and as containing no anti-Polish aspects; Soviet invasion of Poland is termed 'peace operation' and 'liberation'; and main concern of Soviet government during its occupation of Poland was... the well-being of Polish citizens (deportations were meant to safeguard Poles from retribution of now-liberated minorities in that region, and Katyn massacre is justifed due to "60,000 Soviet POWs murdered during the Polish-Soviet War". Nowak also criticizes the work on methodological grounds, noting its reliance of Soviet sources like Nikolai Kuzmin Kruszenije trietjego pochoda Ententy (1958) or Paweł Olszański's Riżskij dogowor (1969) and near complete omission of any works from Russian authors who would disagree with his claims, Polish or Western historiography.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Melt. certainly seems to be a biased source... but I hesitate to clasify him as unreliable, even for his POV claims of attrocities. He meets our guidelines for being published etc. Once again, I find that Fringe and undue weight might well apply but not RS. If it must be used, a direct text attribution seems to be the way to go. Blueboar 19:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you expand on your statement "He meets our guidelines for being published etc."? Do you mean that we must accept as reliable every work by him? Balcer 20:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar is certainly correct with pointing out the importance of Fringe and Undue Weight, however I'd like to note that Fringe policy is part of RS (per WP:RS#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources) and it advocates that mulitplie reliable sources should be presented to back up his exceptional claims. Yet here those claims are backed up only by his work (Soviet-Polish Wars), already criticized by two respected academics and not endorsed by any. Further, WP:ATT/FAQ#What_kinds_of_sources_are_generally_regarded_as_reliable.3F notes that reliable books are ones not just published but published by universities and known publishing houses and written by widely published authors. Melt. has not been widely published outside Russia (and how widely pubished in Russia he is also a matter of debate), and to this day we don't know who was the publisher of his works (for all we know they could have been self-published online). Finally, I believe that WP:ATT/FAQ#Does_this_mean_we_have_to_include_every_crank_view_that_can_get_itself_published.3F answers the issue well, and he cannot be considered a reliable and neutral source on the raised issues.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider it a crank view. I consider it erratic, but necessary to be considered. Once a reputable scholar has published a work, and it has been taken sufficiently seriously by other scholars to refute it in academic periodicals, it may be wrong, it may be fringe, but it is no longer negligible. I've seen the same tendency in other articles to ignore minority views by classifying single books by qualified people that take a strongly revisionist position as crank. . One reputable person is enough. Since other people have commented, you just give all the views. In this case, as his work has not yet been translated into English, you could say that. But his Russian books are held by the major US academic libraries. Minority views do not disappear by calling them crank. Crank in this would be an erratic view expressed only in a blog. DGG 01:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The book is scary, but that might be a reason to keep it. Other editors have added some well-founded criticism to the article. My impression from a quick overview is that Meltyukov may represent a certain current of opinion within Russia, however irrational it might seem to us. Stalin was probably not the only one who thought those massacres were justified. This discussion would be different if he were truly an isolated crank, representing no-one but himself. EdJohnston 18:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That raises an interesting question. When do certain views cross from WP:FRINGE into a controversial but notable mainstream? Fringe is not only, after all, consisted of isolated cranks: there are relatively large communities of neo-Nazis, Holocaust denialers, Stalinism fans and such. Yet despite relatively high notability we don't, for example, cite David Irving or Stalin Society. As Nowak notes in his 2004, indeed, Melt. is not isolated and does indeed represent with his biases a clear trend in Russian historiography. There is however no proof that anybody outside Russia is treating this trend as reliable, and instead, when it's rarely commented upon, we have only critical academic reviews of it. Certainly, this trend is notable enough to be described in articles about it (such as Melt.'s bio) - but I don't see how a view "close to Stalinist and neoimperial concepts" can be considered reliable or even 'duly weighted' and be cited in other articles?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  11:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

it can be cited as a direct quote if a brief explanation of his position is included, which can be done as a ref. e.g.The neo-Stalinist [ref] Russian historian Melt. says that " ". I would not use a quote from that book to justify a statement of controverted fact without some qualification, but I see no reason to omit such sources altogether. DGG (talk) 00:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Man vs Wild: Sources for criticism section

Ive (unfortunately) gotten myself neck-deep into a longstanding argument on the Man vs. Wild Talk Page, in which one user in particular has attempted to put forth a criticism section that states that elements of the show are staged using sources that myself and a few others feel is flimsy at best. However, as the debate has begun to turn nasty, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if it is agreed to be reliable here.

The following are sources which have been used for criticism sections, all of which was removed.

1. [1] This picture, which user Rei has put forth that it appears that the raft was cut rather than fireburned, as the episode apparently stated. The problem I have with this is that his analysis is not backed up by any source other than photograph itself, which appears to me to be a violation of WP:OR, while another user, grahamdubya, has suggested that the image itself isnt strong enough evidence regardless.

Analysis of a photograph, if controversial, is certainly WP:OR. As such, until a reliable source describes the photograph, this claim should not appear on Wikipedia.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

2. [2] A youtube video of an episode where the unregistered user who used it as a source by stating that at one point in the video, a harness is visible. Again, no secondary source corroborating this claim, only the primary source from which the claim is based.

Analysis of videos posted on youtube with no secondary claim to introduce or corroborate that analysis was common on the original criticism section. For example this video, [3], from 4:44 onward, was used as a reference for a claim that because the cameraman followed the host, Bear Grylls, as he jumped off of a crevasse, the height of the crevasse wasnt as high as he claimed.

The rest of the evidence used for the criticism section can be seen in context here: [4]

YouTube is a source of poor reliability, in essence, a self-published source. See more at Wikipedia:V#SELF.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

3. Forum posts had been frequently implemented to present theories viewers had questioning the narrative presented in the show, including this forum post [5] questioning the opening sequence of the pilot episode.

Forums are not reliable. See WP:ATT/FAQ#Are_web_forums_and_blog_talkbacks_reliable_sources.3F.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

4. The original criticism section also included 2 google searches elsewhere [6][7] in order to show how there is widespread viewer criticism of the shows content.

Google searches are not reliable sources. Somebody there should really read WP:V and WP:RS.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

If these are deemed to be acceptable sources, then I will reinstate it myself, but I am highly doubtful that it is.--Tao of tyler 07:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Replied under your points above. Hope it helps.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus has the right of it. Every source they are using violates our guidlines on reliable sources and using it may be considered a violation of WP:BIO. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 14:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

RFC opened on use of translated court documents as source

An RFC has been opened regarding the provenance of material that was originally published by Baker's defense. Talk:Nick Baker (prisoner in Japan)#Request for comments: Use of translated court documents as a source I appreciate comments from uninvolved editors. -- Sparkzilla talk! 16:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Court documents are primary sources and not considered reliable sources. Court decisions may be used, but affidavits, evidence etc/ should not be used in articles, in particular in BLPs, unless discussed in secondary published sources ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This RFC, which was opened on 13 July, was archived that same day to Talk:Nick Baker (chef)/Archive 2#Request_for_comments: Use of translated court documents as a source. I assume that some BLP concern could be behind the speedy archiving. The tide was running heavily against the use of the documents when the archiving occurred, and it was based mostly on skepticism that the documents were real, and absence of the Japanese originals, not so much on the documents being primary. EdJohnston 16:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Not reliable sources? They are reliable in some uses... for instance "X presented evidence Y to support Z", etc. However, if the sources is being used as "X presented evidence Y, so Z must be true" then no, it can't be used. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

RFC regarding source at Right to bear arms

A RFC has been opened regarding the use of a published appellate court opinion as a source in the article Right to bear arms. To what extent does such an opinion constitute a reliable source in articles not about the legal case in which the opinion was issued? PubliusFL 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see Jossi's answer in the section right above.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The section above deals with different types of materials, but looking at the applicable part of Jossi's answer, I guess the answer to my question would be "yes"? PubliusFL 17:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

What appellate court? In the US? A Federal Court? Please provide context. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Federal appellate decision are binding precedent only in the geographic region of appellate jurisdiction, and are just suggestive elsewhere. In the absence of contrary decisions they do represent that state of current legal opinion about what the law is. DGG (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Medical Science Sources

Can someone advise me whether the Statements and Recommendations of the International Herpes Management Forum (Editors of the Journal ‘Herpes’) and sourced from their website, are considered a Reliable Source and Verifiable? I have been reverted several times now, without discussion on the article pages, but generalised comments made on my talk page and on other editors pages to the effect of unsourced material, quote mining, and lack of peer reveiwed sources? The particular quotes used are listed below.

“Current antiviral therapy for herpes zoster is moderately effective. Aciclovir, valaciclovir and famciclovir initiated within 72 h of rash onset reduce viral shedding, new lesion formation, time to lesion healing and time to pain resolution” “Current antiviral therapies provide a degree of efficacy against varicella infection and herpes zoster,”

Where available “Antiviral drugs are useful (for herpes zoster) but have a limited effect on post-herpetic neuralgia prevention.”

“Antiviral therapy, oral corticosteroids and neural blockade are appropriate in the pharmacologic management of acute pain in herpes zoster”, “There is only limited clinical evidence to support the use of aspirin, acetaminophen/paracetamol, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, NSAIDs), opioid analgesics (including tramadol), tricyclic antidepressants (especially nortriptyline), gabapentin and pregabalin in the pharmacologic management of acute pain in herpes zoster “

The following has also been reverted without discussion by the same editor on a separate article on the basis of unsourced material and pseudoscience! And so I seek independent opinion on V and RS before engaging in further attempts at discussion.

Medications are available to ameliorate the pain of PHN, but data suggests these agents provide incomplete pain relief and their use is often accompanied by troubling side effects, especially in the populations of the aged and immuno-compromised, who should be monitored closely. Jagra 04:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I think dispute resolution would be preferable here since this seems to be more complicated than just a dispute over whether they are reliable sources or not. Try WP:RFC because this seems like a broader content dispute. That said, the sources you provided do seem to be reliable, at least at first glance. Sponsorship of medical research is not uncommon but I would advise you to take this to WP:RFC for further investigation and clarification. The appropriate place to file it is here.MartinDK 09:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Check WP:RSEX for some comment on medical sources. Has any claims been presented that your source is not reliable?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes Piotr, leaving aside generalized accusations that arise from this, made on various user talk pages, such as here but more specifically to RS: here 21st june revert and here 1st july revert

I think dispute resolution should be the last avenue, what I would like to know is there a real issue of RS or just editor prejudices/ opinion?Jagra 03:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

From a policy point of view they are reliable. That does not imply that other reliable sources are wrong. It implies that you can cite them but you need to keep in mind that NPOV means that both views should be represented if reliable sources exist. As for the rest of the content dispute and the various accusations you will want to refer to dispute resolution. MartinDK 10:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Opinions on treatment in professional journals often vary. & I would not necessarily use such statements fro ma research carticle. But these sources are explicitly put forth as representing a medical consensus, and are thus suitable unless challenged. I would still prefer to take such a statement from a source that aimed at a non-professional audience, such as PubMed Plus or some similar source.DGG (talk) 00:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Steam

More specifically, Steam_(content_delivery)#Crossplatform_Support. I dont think this should be there because its interpretation of primary sources and the given secondary sources is digg.com . What does everyone think? Corpx 19:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Forums and other user-edited sources are not reliable. I see no reason not to delete it. There is no way we are going to accept digg.com as a reliable secondary source. That whole section seems like the usual complaining by people who can't tell the difference between Wikipedia and the valve/microsoft/find more yourself complaint department. MartinDK 08:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone might re-word the paragraph in that article about cross-platform support, perhaps reducing it to a single sentence (with a reference). The fact that the Steam (content delivery) providers choose not to offer a Linux version is of interest, but the doings on those forums don't seem notable. EdJohnston 19:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be noted, but I dont think we should be interpreting it as criticism when no other reliable secondary sources do so Corpx 22:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Randall Flagg

In the section concerning his last appearence in the Dark Tower, I wrote how his fate was controversial among the fans. Its easily one of the more controversial topics in the last novel and fans are still debating it to this day. I was wondering if using topics from thedarktower.net (one of the largest Dark Tower websites on the internet) would be good enough citation to show the conflicting views between fans.--CyberGhostface 01:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Genrerally forums are not considered reliable, as we have no way to verify who posts to them, or if what they say is accurate. In this case, using thedarktower.net to demonstrate a controversy would constitute original research as the observation of the conflicting views is your own. What I think you need is a third source that comments upon the debates at thedarktower.net (or on the controversy in general). Blueboar 18:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Bluboar that forums are not reliable sources of information. -- Librarylefty 03:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I agree in general that forums are not reliable sources, if there is a claim that something is controversial, or frequently discussed online, then links to such discussions should be acceptable sources for that contention. Corvus cornix 23:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Conference proceedings

Resolved

Trawick, Prof. Margaret (1999), "Lessons from Kokkodaicholai", Proceedings of Tamil Nationhood & Search for Peace in Sri Lanka, Carleton University, pp. 1–10

Does using this violate WP:RS ? This is Professor Trawicks home page. This has been disputed in the Prawn farm massacre article. Thanks Taprobanus 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The book is certainly a reliable source by our standards (it is published by a reputable publishing house). It might count as a biased source... although that is not clear (and is a very different matter - one not within the domain of this guideline ... see WP:NPOV, especially the section on undue weight, for assistance on that), . If so, any statements taken from the book should be phrased as being the view of the author and not stated as fact. Blueboar 18:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

You mean this ?McGowan, William (1992). Only Man Is Vile: The Tragedy of Sri Lanka. Farrar Straus & Giroux. pp. 243–244. ISBN 0374226520. Right ? Because this has also been removed from the article but it is a book, where as the above is a Conference proceedings. I have written to the professor to see whether she has publsihed it anywhere else also Thanks Taprobanus 18:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Conference proceedings are usually published by someone reliable (although sometimes professional organisations, rather than publishing houses.) WilyD 18:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Careful. Not all conferences are peer reviewed. Quite a lot accept papaers based on abstract and are therefore less reliable, however they are published afterwards. Reliable source for what happened at the conference yes, reliable science may be less so. --BozMo talk 18:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Which is why I point to them being published by someone reliable. Conference Proceedings published by American Astronomical Society probably are reliable. Conference proceedings published by West Upstairs Hollywood Herbal Medicine Association probably aren't. Look at who's publishing ... WilyD 18:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As a note, depending on context, a conference proceeding may or may not be peer reviewed. Some conferences are very selective about what goes in proceedings, while others will accept anything for a fee and are essentially no better than self-published. You'd have to look closer to know which this is. Dragons flight 18:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

So if Prof. Margret's paper is considred self published then it can be used in the article with attribution per this. Am I correct in my reading of self published ? ThanksTaprobanus 18:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can call Prof. Trawick's paper "self published"... I suppose you could make the argument that the "Accademic Society of Tamil Students" (who seemed to have sponcered the conference) are the publishers, but not Prof. Trawick. Blueboar 18:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Her bio page says 1999 “Lessons from Kokkaddichcholai.” Proceedings of the International Conference on Tamil Nationhood and the Search for Peace in Sri Lanka, Ottawa: The Academic Society of Tamil Students. Pages 17-49. that means unless the material is used somewhere else or published by a reliable source, we cannot use it ? Taprobanus 21:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Though the material is not self-published in the literal sense, I think similar considerations as used for WP:SPS broadly apply. Here we have an "established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." If it's acceptable to use a blog under those circumstances, it should be equally acceptable to use a conference preprint. (PS: This discussion really should be at WP:RSN, not here.) Raymond Arritt 21:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

No worries, the same information is in Trawick, Margaret (2007). Enemy Lines: Warfare, Childhood and Play in Batticaloa. University of California Press. pp. Chapter 4. ISBN 0520245164. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help). I wil use that instead. Thansk for all your helpTaprobanus 15:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was resolved but the book has been reverted without any comments ? Thanks Taprobanus 15:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone doubt that Enemy Lines is clearly a reliable source under our rules? I have a feeling that what you are dealing with now is a POV content dispute issue and that it should be raised at WP:NPOV. Blueboar 16:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Hipgnosis

Hello, Administrator, I have the following situation:

I have been editing the article on Hipgnosis off and on, adding artwork to the article, as Hipgnosis is a graphic design company that designed some of the most famous album covers of the past 30 years, including Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. By way of illustrating their work, I have been including the various album covers that they designed.

However, User:Moe Epsilon consistently reverts the edits, claiming that the use of the album covers in the article violates copyright. There has been a lengthy discussion, principally with other editors. User:Moe Epsilon's reverts are bordering on vandalism, as no reasonable argument will satisfy him/her.

My position (and that of other editors) is that the use of the album covers to illustrate Hipgnosis' work is warranted—after all, they are an important graphic design outfit. Therefore, including the album covers in the article falls under the rubrick of fair use. User:Moe Epsilon, on the other, clearly does not believe that any use of copyrighted material is allowed in the article, regardless of relevance.

I'd ask someone to please settle this issue, as it is becoming irritating. Thank you. --TallulahBelle 22:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

First, very few of those who respond here are actually admins... most of us are just regular editors who care about reliability. Second, while you are discussing an interesting debate, this is not really the right place for it. Copywrite issues do not fall under the category of reliable sources. That said, I would suggest that you raise this issue at WP:COPY or at the Village Pump. You will get a response from people who are much more qualified to respond than we are (such as people who actually know copywrite law and its ramifications. Blueboar 00:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!--TallulahBelle 17:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Salon as a source at a BLP related article under ArbComm special standards

Resolved

 – Discussed, found that no other review of the book mentioned it, and deemed insignificant by OP. GRBerry

A paragraph was recently added to Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy, an article that needs to comply with WP:BLP and is also subject to this ArbComm remedy. The article has twice gone through a cycle of speedy delete - deletion review overturn - AFD keep. Here is the diff of the addition. The sourcing offered is from Salon.com. I followed the link, saw that it wasn't in the non-subscriber portion of the linked article. So my concerns about the source were aggravated. I then found Talk:Salon.com/as a source for Wikipedia, which seems to demonstrate a consensus that they can be a reliable source used judiciously, but should generally not be used for BLP sensitive details. Since this article is extra sensitive, I removed the paragraph and explained at Talk:Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy#Reversion of book note. Was I correct to do so? Please centralize discussion there. GRBerry 21:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I was able to access the link without being a subscriber or registering or even watching an ad. It looks fine to me. For the citing passage, it's just a review of a book. The author is a regular Salon contributor. Do you see any actual BLP concerns for the statements supported by the Salon source? I don't. The book maybe has an inflammatory title in general, but it's not a BLP concern. ←Ben^B4 05:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The source cited says this:

"Oh god, she is feminism's worst nightmare," said Neil Boyd, an SFU criminology professor who claimed that Marsden harassed him too. Boyd was a vocal critic of SFU's handling of the Donnelly case; his 2004 book "Big Sister: How Extreme Feminism Has Betrayed the Fight for Sexual Equality" was inspired in part by the case. "She used these people, who were only too willing to jump on her bandwagon," said Boyd. "I'm not sure that she ever really presented herself as a feminist as much as she took advantage of an openness to victimization that existed on the university campus at that time."...

By phone, Boyd explained that as he had been a vocal critic of the school's handling of the Donnelly case, he was surprised when Marsden showed up to take one of his classes. The university denied his request to be exempt from teaching her, but agreed that he wouldn't have to evaluate her, since it might be a conflict of interest. Boyd said that partway through the semester, Marsden sent him an e-mail saying that it was going so well, she thought he should be able to grade her. When he refused, he claimed, she began phoning and e-mailing him frequently, asking him out, and "showing up after talks I gave in the community, or after classes, wherever I might be." But Boyd, who has a background in law, kept all her calls and e-mail messages. In 1999, Boyd took these records to the police, who reportedly warned Marsden to stay away from him. According to Boyd, she did.

The passage you removed says:

SFU criminologist Neil Boyd's 2004 book Big Sister: How Extreme Feminism Has Betrayed the Fight for Sexual Equality was partly inspired by these incidents. Boyd had been a vocal critic of the university during the controversy and later had Marsden as one of his students.

Given that those direct quotes by a reputable journalist are substantially more inflammatory than the passage you removed, which really has no BLP issues at all, I would recommend replacing it. ←Ben^B4 06:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad al-Durrah

• "Eyewitness: Anger and mourning in Gaza", BBC News, October 4 2000
• Schary Motro, Helen. "Living among the headlines", Salon, October 7, 2000.
• Orme, William A. "Muhammad al-Durrah: A Young Symbol of Mideast Violence", The New York Times, October 2, 2000. Reprinted at CommonDreams.
• Rees, Matt. "Mohammed al-Dura", Time, December 25 2000.
• "Israel 'sorry' for killing boy", BBC News, October 3 2000.
• "Boy becomes Palestinian martyr", BBC News, October 2 2000.

as well as meny more as citation for this information in Muhammad al-Durrah

was killed

// Liftarn 12:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

If your question is whether these are reliable sources... the answer is "Yes". Blueboar 12:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

My question is if these sources is enough to be able to say he actually is dead even if there is a person promoting a conspiracy theory that say he isn't. // Liftarn

Liftarn, I think the article as written steers a careful course through the various theories. We talk about the New York Times reporting his injuries; the BBC reporting his death etc. We don't state as a fact that he had certain injuries, but nor have we used any weasel phrases like "his reported death," or "his family claimed that ..." I think most readers will come away with the impression that he is dead but that it's a very confusing story, which would be the right attitude to have, in my view. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The article uses a lot of weasly phrases such as "was reported to have been killed", "the reported shooting", "appears to be injured" and so on. Compare with the Elvis Presley article that says "His death" and so on. // Liftarn

I don't think you can challenge inclusion of the conspiracy theory stuff on reliability grounds, and certainly not based upon the articles you link to above. While they all back the "mainstream view" (that the boy was killed, by one side or the other) ... they don't address the contention that the whole thing was staged and that the boy might not have even been killed. The reports you cite all date from shortly after the event, and are, to some extent, superceded by subsequent information such as the existance of the contention that the event was staged. Note, I am not saying that the conspiracy stuff is 'true'... only that it exists and has not been debunked as of yet. This is the current status of the controvery, and that status affects how we phrase the article.

This is not really a reliability issue... more one for WP:NPOV. How much weight to give the theory that the boy lived is a legitimate debate, but not one to be decided here. Blueboar 17:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Given that no reliable source say the boy isn't dead it should be no problem. It may be a case of WP:UNDUE. Anyway, there are more recent articles about it like this from 2007, but they don't add anything new. // Liftarn

Food Intolerance

I would be pleased if someone could advise if the following reference is considered a reliable source and verifiable on the subject of food intolerance, as it seems to have been reverted here without reasonable comment.

Clarke L, McQueen J,and others (1996);"The dietary Management of food allergy and Food Intolerance in Children and Adults". Australian Journal of Nutrition and Dietetics 53(3):89-98.)Full version of this reference together with references concerning food additives,may be viewed at [8] Jagra 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The citation is good... but the link to the website that you use with it is not (all it contains is a citation to the same AJN&D article you cite). Try citing to the original journal article without a link... you can obtain it here - Blueboar 13:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Blueboar for the confirmation and website for the journal. All I could find there in 'archives' Issue 53 (3) was an abstract from this , but a full copy of paper is shown on the website at here and this goes directly to the article now, which I would like to make available as abstract not directly accessed and it does not cover details. If I reference both does that overcome problem? Jagra 08:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Use of Patryk Dole as a reference in history articles

Piotrus has been using an article by Patryk Dole, published online by polonica.net (home page:[9], article:[10] ) as a reference for several articles. The Dole article is heavily cited at Kiev Offensive (1920), which includes the statement "Some scholars stress the effects of Soviet propaganda (Dole citation) in encouraging negative Ukrainian sentiment towards the Polish operation and Polish-Ukrainian history in general."

Dole is quoted at length in the WP article's notes, including the statement that "Most Ukrainians had no idea what Bolshevism was and were easily manipulated by the Russians. Besides, many of the Ukrainian peasants were very simple people who still had memories of serfdom, which was imposed on them by the Polish Szlachta (Nobility)." This language is rather loaded - as is the language in the rest of the article. The WP article's talk page indicates a fair amount of controversy.

Although P. removed many of the polonica.net references in articles yesterday, he has suggested that Dole's publication on that site doesn't necessarily disparage his reliability (Talk:Treaty of Warsaw (1920)). However, Patryk Dole does not seem to be what most of us would consider a reliable historical source. He apparently participates in a blog [11], the "Christian Confederacy of Intermarium", but no academic or mainstream publications contain his work. Dole is mentioned in a discussion thread at University of New York - Buffalo [12], but not as a scholar.

A few sources [13], [14] put "Patryk Dole - The American University of Paris" at the top of his article, but a search for Dole at the AUP website yields no results. Novickas 15:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Some clarifications. Dole's article is one of dozens used in those articles and I feel no special attachment to it. It seemed to offer the most facts (online) for Bezdany raid article which I wrote about a year ago; it doesn't seem to be used extensively in any other article (and even Bezdany can be relatively easily verified with print publications). The above-quoted Soviet propaganda fact is referenced with a source that seems more reliable (written by historian Anna M. Cienciala), and Dole's apparently just offered an online citation (I can't even remember if it was me or some other editor who added him to back up that point). I certainly agree that polonica.net, by itself, is an unreliable portal - but as far as I can tell, Dole's article (published on several websites, particularly in its Polish language version) is as reliable as an average external links, serves simply as a temporary citation till a better one is found, and should not be used for facts if they are contradicted by more reliable sources - but so far I have not seen any criticism of his statements (with more reliable sources showing errors in his piece). In any case, I will see about replacing references in Bezdany raid with a printed source (which I will have access again to in two weeks or so). But I actually not sure if Novickas wants the citations to be removed, or finds any facts controversial?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to discuss the content of the article - it doesn't meet the criteria for reliable historical sources. It doesn't belong on WP as a reference, and should be removed, along with any WP article statements that are supported by it. Its convenience to editors is immaterial. Novickas 11:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You may want to write more articles and seeing what is convenient and what is not yourself. You have yourself added content that is uncited ([15], [16], [17]...). Have all of your refs been from acedemic sources only? Would you now revert all of those and similar edits? We should certainly strive to cite everything with reliable sources; alas this is not the case in most Wikipedia articles. Even worse then poor sources are statements not cited with anything - look, for example, at Lithuania or Poland articles, and see how much material in both is uncited, and how much is cited to a sources of doubious reliability (online newspapers, etc.). Unless you can show that Dole's claims are contradicted by a more reliable source (in which case they should certainly be removed) or are plain ridiculous (granted, its hard to find criticism of some crackpot theories), the right thing to do is to find more reliable citations for them and replace them. Removing all uncited or poorly referenced material from this project would be pure WP:POINT.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• Depends on whom he is. If, for example, he were a recognized historian, then his online essays, though not as authoritative as his peer-reviewed writings, are usable; if he were a recognized non-academic writer on the subject, this too would give his essays a certain though still lesser degree of authority. If he were an amateur with no degree of recognition beyond his web essays, then I would still consider it usable if they are widely cited by RSs, because the citation by RSs would establish some degree of recognition. All this would be especially true for the presentation of non-controversial facts, less true for authoritative opinion of controverted subjects. I cannot find an informative page about him, but see [18] from which it is clear that he is not politically neutral--an avowed Christian conservative with a project to create a central European confederacy. Nor can I find any established authority or RS who cites him. On the current information, I would remove all the references. He has no more authority than any of us. DGG (talk) 22:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with Piotrus' points: 1) references and notes containing historic analyses such as "Ukrainian peasants were very simple people" are acceptable, even if they lack any provenance, since this happens elsewhere on WP; 2) the task of removing four such references is unduly burdensome and disrupts Wikipedia; 3) unreferenced altitudes, holiday traditions, and birthplaces are comparable to these usages in terms of importance. But at this point I've said all I wish to, and will hope for comments from other editors. Novickas 21:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I feel no special attachment to this ref; the only article still using it is Bezdany raid and I will fix it in a week or so. Or perhaps Novickas would try WP:SOFIXIT and do it for me, if he is so concerned about possible inaccuracies from that source?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of a human rights organisation

There is an ongoing dispute at Talk:Prawn farm massacre#UTHR regarding whether a human rights organisation known as the University Teachers for Human Rights is a reliable source. To me, the issue seems clear, but another editor disagrees and I hope an outside opinion could prevent tens of kilobytes of unproductive discussion.

Arguments against reliability

I think the argument of the editor disputing reliability can be summed up by the following quote:

UTHR is all tamil organization and, and they are inherently bias to tamil. They may have criticized LTTE(who won't ??) or the GOSL, but that doesn't NOT change the fact that they are a ALL tamil organization with an agenda against the Sinhalese people.

Note: LTTE refers to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and GOSL refers to the Government of Sri Lanka.

Arguments for reliability

I maintain that the UTHR is a reliable and neutral source, which has criticised both sides in the Sri Lankan Civil War, based on a brief search to see what others had to say about it:

• International Herald Tribune: "the University Teachers for Human Rights, an independent Sri Lankan advocacy group"
• BBC: "a prominent Tamil human rights groups accused the Tamil Tigers ..."
• Chronicle of Higher Education: "The University Teachers for Human Rights is the only remaining Tamil Human-Rights group critical of the Tiger leadership."
• New York Times: "The University Teachers for human Rights, an independent Sri Lankan advocacy group ..."
• Washington Post: "the independent University Teachers for Human Rights ..."

The UTHR is not a pro-rebel group, so the editor disputing reliability has targeted the fact that their membership consists mostly or entirely of Tamils. The allegation that the UTHR has "an agenda against the Sinhalese people" or "is inherently bias"ed toward Tamils does not seem to mesh with what reliable sources have to say about the group.

Comments (here or on the article talk page) are welcome. -- Black Falcon ^(Talk) 19:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

So far you have presented sources for reliability, but there are no sources (only another editors opinion) that it is unreliable - but we should remember that NGOs, even human rights one, have their biases, too - they are not on the level of neutral academic scholarship, after all. As you made the case, the source appear more reliable then not, though. A simple solution: when giving a fact cited to UTHR, state in text that "According to UTHR...". The reader can follow the link and decide if there is any bias himself.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll suggest that and see what happens. I suggested it for another source that is currently in dispute, but the other editor rejected the idea. Thanks, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 05:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Is an article by a newspaper owner self-published?

The owner and editor-in-chief of a newspaper, Nicholas F. Benton, wrote an article we're using as a source. The Falls Church News-Press has a paid circulation of about 30,000 and is the chief newspaper for its community. The paper has a staff of editors. It's not a free paper or a one-man operation. WP editors commenting at Talk:Kenneth Kronberg object that the article is self-published since the same guy who wrote it owns the newspaper. My view is that many reliable sources are owned or controlled by a single person, and that when an owner writes an article it doesn't necessarily have less credibility than when a staff writer does since the reliability of a source is tied to its overall editing process. The newspaper is used as a source in several other WP articles without controversy.[19] Any comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

This is an unusual case, because the article in question is making highly inflammatory insinuations that have a bearing on WP:BLP. It is also, to date, the only publication where these claims have appeared. So, it's not just a garden-variety sourcing issue. --Marvin Diode 22:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I would not consider that article to be a reliable source, even if it's publication usually is. As Marvin says, this is unusual. ←Ben^B4 06:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Out of India theory

Whose source(s) is more reliable? What do the sources say? Topic experts would be nice. Moreschi ^Talk 21:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

As the article states up front, groups of reputable scholars disagree, and it seems to me from a cursory glance that it's clear neither side is really a fringe. The article at present does a great job of making this controversy clear, so I don't think there are any RS issues here. ←Ben^B4 06:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

You are quite wrong. One side is fringe-y, the other isn't. OIT has not appeared in a single mainstream publication, and would be thoroughly discredited if mainstream linguistics scholars got tenure for doing easy stuff like discrediting fringe theories. Dbachmann, who is something of an expert in the area, says it quite clearly. [20]. Hornplease 09:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

this article has got lots of expert attention, but, by its nature as fringe scholarship, also lots of crank attention. The quotes of the JIES debate really say it all. If the article creates the impression that "neither side is really a fringe", it still needs further de-crankification. dab (⁳) 09:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

In a nutshell: mainstream scholarship considers the Indian subcontinent as at best an unlikely candidate for the "homeland" of the Indo-European language family. For a general overview of the "homeland problem" see Chapter 26 of JP Mallory and DQ Adams, The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (a digest form of their Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture), where they enunciate the relevant principles of evaluation for all hypotheses. The one reliable feature of the steady stream of blog-barfers filling WP pages with crankcruft is that they haven't done their homework. rudra 00:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Forbes Traveller etc

What if any value does this forbestraveler.com article have if I wanted to write about the hotel ? Kappa 03:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Similarly can I use this thing from Economist.com city guide to source a "largest hotel claim"? a "has indoor rain forest" statement? Kappa 04:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, why not? The publishers are large, longstanding, and reputable, and their income depends on their accuracy. I strongly encourage you to rely on those sources. Make sure you include any caveats, such as the "mixed results" on the rain forest. ←Ben^B4 06:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm like "the lobby has an indoor rainforest, which, according to an Economist travel writer, had mixed results in injecting atmosphere." ? Kappa 06:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

yes, though even better if you an find a pithy quote where they express that opinion.DGG (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Religion of Peace

IMHO neither the anonymous website www.thereligionofpeace.com nor the contentious claims on www.religion-of-peace.com satisfy WP:RS and WP:V. Can anyone confirm this? --Raphael1 19:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

They're just self-published sites, not reliable per WP:RS. ←Ben^B4 22:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The context of this request is that this source is quoted in the Religion of peace article as an example of a group that uses the words "religion of peace" in a sarcastic way. It definitely does that. The site is not quoted as a source of data for terrorist attacks (although googling any of the attacks reported usually gives gives a news report showing details of the attack). I would say quoting the site as an example of sarcastic use of "the religion of peace" is legit. Quoting the commentary from the site would fail WP:NPOV. Mike Young 05:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't we be citing a source that says the phrase is used sarcastically instead of self-published primaries? Surely there must be someone else who has said it. Linking to those sites or even referencing them by name without a link seems to me to be The Wrong Thing. ←Ben^B4 06:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In the article the prime minister of Malaysia said "Religion of peace" and Bush said "Islam is peace" Mike Young 14:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree to that as Wikipedia is not a soapbox. WP:SPS also states, that "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." "Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves" fails as well since the article in question is about the phrase "Religion of Peace" and not about those websites. --Raphael1 10:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

the religion of peace article is a list of attacks. It does not invent data, so is not "Self Published". Raphael1 you have now reverted the article 12 times and been undone by several editors, please learn the lessons from the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy where doing this got you banned for a year. Mike Young 14:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, http://www.thereligionofpeace.com does invent data. I.e. it states, that only 225 out of between 18,000 and 26,000 civilians killed in 2006 involve American troops[21]. Besides being "self published" has nothing to do with invented data. "self published" only means, that there is no editorial oversight involved, which is certainly true for this anonymous website.--Raphael1 16:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Watchmen

Resolved

I am looking into including more academic sources at Watchmen (found plenty already), and I came across one that I was not sure seemed reliable. Reading Space in Watchmen is by Dr. Spiros Xenos, who calls himself an independent scholar. At the end of the paper, it says, "Dr Spiros Xenos has been researching and writing on comics for over ten years. He has presented papers at international conferences and in Australia, and published articles in general and academic journals. He completed his PhD thesis on spatiality and comics in 2002. He is on the International Editorial Board of the International Journal of Comic Art." The paper is linked to by the University of Technology, Sydney. How would one rate the credibility of this source? It does not seem published anywhere, which is why I was not certain. I have other academic sources that are published, but I am looking to encompass as many as possible. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 14:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It's published on an academic website, and according to [22] and [23], it was pretend/read during a symposium and might have even been published in a collection with ISBN 0646452398. Spiros Xenos doesn't seem to be a classic academic, but at the very least this paper has been given academic reliability by being presented and published there. Unless it is controversial or such, I see no reason not to use it as a source.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your input! It's appreciated. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

globalresearch.ca

I'd appreciate people's thoughts on globalresearch.ca as a reliable source. Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

According to their "about" page, they are an NGO, claiming to have some academic connections. Unfortunatly after some recent edits RS has been significantly gutted of guidelines that would allow us to analyze the reliability of such an NGO, but I'd advise looking for reviews of the organization to see if its considered more 'academic', 'mainstream' or 'fringe'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Michel Chossudovsky seems to be the founder of http://globalresearch.ca.--Raphael1 23:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

An academic, but with visible bias. Perhaps a good solution would be to agree that this source can be used, but if controversy arises, it should be noted that this website is the source? Perhaps the NGO is notable and we could link it, and the article could discuss it possible bias.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree... I would say it is reliable, but with the caveat that statements based upon it should probably be directly attributed (as in "According to globalresearch.ca, such and such is true.") Any bias should also be noted. Blueboar 01:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

DIsagree- I consider them a frankly political group, making no attempt at an unbiased selection or presentation. This is not an academically based relatively neutral NGO in any meaningful sense; it is an NPO, a non-profit organisation, which can include almost anything, and, at least in the US, it certainly does include the entire spectrum politically, and the entire spectrum in terms of responsibility as well. I would accept that what they reprint is correctly reprinted, though I would certainly link to the original source if it can be found. But almost all their content seems to be written by their staff and contributors, and I do not consider it quotable as factual news unless otherwise supported. I see no academic connection at all, except that it says "articles are used as source material by college and university students. " and that academic institutions have "established a link to Global Research on their respective web sites." That perhaps I rather agree with some of their politics is no reason for pretending they are other than they are. 01:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs) looks like you hit ~ too many times :) --Haemo 01:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Choke

An editor has been attempting to add a scan of the purported production schedule for Choke (film), seen at Image:Choke day 1 front.jpg. It is "released" in the public domain, but the editor has not claimed the document as his own, only scanning it and providing it for the article. There's been a disagreement about the appropriateness of this source, especially considering the verifiability and notability of the enclosed information. Is this image appropriately licensed for inclusion, and if it is, is the image appropriate to cite for information about the film? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

So far two of the sources cited in this image as well as article (Hospital & Mesob's) have been verified through third party sources. Details in image include shooting time (25 days) as well as crew members already acknowledged as correct - with over 75 percent of image details as well as other information (plus first hand account) have to assume that information supplied is correct and accurate209.212.28.50 14:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The above user is the editor with whom I am in dispute at the article and not one whose opinion I am not looking for here. Is there a neutral perspective available as to the appropriateness of the image? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm also doubtful as to whether the uploader has the rights to release the document into public domain. Corpx 15:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Francis Crick

A debate is currently ongoing [24] at Francis Crick over the reliability of certain sources being used to verify some claims regarding Crick's alleged involvement with drugs, which a regular contributor to the page User:JWSchmidt feels are "unreliable sources". I'm not too sure, and to be honest I haven't found a conclusive answer in WP:RS. Can someone look in and give an opinion on the sources concerned? They are:

• "For the Record: The Francis Crick Archive at the Wellcome Library" , Chris Beckett, Medical History, v.48,2,245-260 2004. "Medical History" is a journal published by (I believe) University College London, The Wellcome Trust (a British medical research charity) and the British Medical Association. It is is peer-reviewed and edited by two professors at UCL. Full text access is available via pubmed. This is presumably a fairly safe source.

• "Obituary: Odile Crick", Matt Ridley The Independent, 20th of July 2007 (The Independent is a British nationally distributed newspaper with a fairly high reputation. The specific link is to a recent obituary by the science writer and biologist Matt Ridley.)

• Full text of statement, The Times Monday July 24th 1967 This is a reproduction of a statement printed in The Times newspaper in 1967. As far as I'm aware, the newspaper's own online archives do not extend this far. This specific link is pointed at in the peer-reviewed Medical History article alluded to above. The publication of this particular letter is a moderately well-known aspect of British history in the 1960s and can be easily verified independently.

• [25] This a story in the British national newspaper The Mail on Sunday appearing in August 2004. The MOS does not have the reputation of The Guardian or Indy, but neither is it a tabloid rag like The Sun or The Daily Star. Although not universally respected (largely due to its pronounced right wing bias, as is typical of the British press) it is perceived essentially as occupying the middle ground between chip-paper tabloids and more highbrow “broadsheets”.

• [26] A book review from The Guardian, again a widely-read British newspaper with a strong reputation for accuracy, written by Robin Mckie, the science editor of its sister publication The Observer.

I'd be grateful for opinions, particularly on the newspaper sources. Badgerpatrol 17:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Chris Beckett is a reliable academic writer and the journal one of the standards of the field.
2. An ad in the Times is really a primary source, & can not in general be used unless referred to by secondary sources, but it would seem the use by Beckett is sufficient for that.
3. MOS is not acceptable for controversial politics, and for other subjects a little dubious. I'd be leery of anything certified by it alone, For the particular story used, the material cited is about as weak as I've seen--a reporter (Rees) writes that another person (un-named) tells him that he heard a story years before from yet a third person (Kemp--a known illegal producer of LSD) that Kemp had spoken at one point with Crick about Crick's use of LSD. A story indeed in the traditions of British journalism. Appropriate weight for this one would be a link alone, not 3 paragraphs in the article on Crick.
4. RobinMcKie, however, is a respected science ed., and what he writes either in the Observer or the Guardian is an unquestionably RS.

DGG (talk) 23:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a pretty good analysis- my only comment would be that since there's no interpretation of the primary source, it should be reasonable to include it unalloyed. If necessary numerous secondary sources containing the information can be found though, the episode is fairly well known. I also agree [27] [28][29] that the issue is given undue space at the moment. Tomorrow I'll endeavour to cut it back to 3 or so lines and integrate it into the main text rather than a separate section. The MOS source is the weakest, but I do think that all the sources are acceptable per WP:RS- as you say, the relative weight given to each is probably the key issue. Badgerpatrol 01:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The two disputed citations are for:

1. "LSD was allegedly 'drug of choice' for Francis", which cites a book review of a Crick biography. The book reviewer invents a personal interpretation and description of Crick's drug use in order to sensationalize a minor topic from a book-length biography. Since the topic of Crick's drug use is covered by the published biography, User:Badgerpatrol should directly quote from the published biography. User:Badgerpatrol has demonstrated a skill for cherry-picking sensationalized gossip from opinion pieces and other unreliable sources rather than using the published biographical sources about Crick. There is no need to quote a sensationalized phrase from an opinion piece about a biography when the biography itself can be cited. The larger dispute is over inclusion of the topic of Crick's drug use in the Francis Crick article. User:Badgerpatrol refuses to provide a justification for including this topic in the Francis Crick article. Crick's drug use has nothing to do with his work or his fame.
2. "Allegations persist that Crick was a user of illegal hallucinogenic drugs, which may have had some influence on his work", which cites a story in The Mail on Sunday by "Alun Rees". This "news" article claims that, "Nobel Prize genius Crick was high on LSD when he discovered the secret of life". This is the kind of sensationalized fantasy claim that Crick was prepared to sue over as long as he was alive. Why is there only one "news" source that was willing to publish this "news" after Crick's death? This non-reliable article and its sensationalized claim about the role of LSD in Crick's work was explicitly refuted by Matt Ridley in his book-length biography of Crick, as discussed on the talk page (all of this has been discussed there, but User:Badgerpatrol refuses to address these issues there, apparently preferring to come here to forum shop). "Allegations persist" means that one sensationalized tabloid story made the allegation, however no reputable news source has repeated the absurd allegation that LSD influenced Crick's work on the structure of DNA and Ridley explicitly refuted this absurd claim.

Neither of these two sources (above) are reliable sources as used by User:Badgerpatrol and they certainly do not provide the basis for an entire section in the Francis Crick article. User:Badgerpatrol's persistent attempts to keep citing these unreliable sources while refusing to cite the published biographies of Crick is an unproductive waste of time. --JWSchmidt 17:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Okaaay. Well, firstly thank you for joining in the discussion here. This issue is obviously one which has upset you a lot more than I realised, per your earlier edit this afternoon [30]. This is a content dispute and an honest debate over sources. I have no issue with you personally, and I don't think any of my actions have been unreasonable. I genuinely am sorry if I have said something to offend you. I think I have shown myself repeatedly to be willing to engage in discussion over at Talk:Francis Crick, and it is maybe a little disingenuous of you to say I have been "forum shopping" - this is surely the logical first port of call where there is a dispute over the reliability of sources? I have also now posted the issue at WP:THIRD, although that was before I realised that you felt quite so strongly as you obviously now do. If you have any other ideas for a third party resolution, please go forward with it. As for the sources- the Ridley book, the MOS article, the Guardian piece all agree that Crick was an LSD user. You don't seem to dispute this, and it's obviously verifiable. You do seem to dispute the fact that Crick's use of drugs influenced his thinking as to biochemistry. You do seem to dispute whether this should be included in a biography of Crick. To be blunt, I disagree with you. If you want to change the wording then please go ahead and do it and we can come to some sort of agreement. I think though that excising the issue (which contains verified information) wholesale, just because you don't personally like what it contains, is a bit silly. You don't own the article. You cannot dictate to other editors how they should edit, or what specific sources they should use, except in so far as to encourage compliance with policy and etiquette. I have at all times complied with policy and etiquette. I've already invited you to add the material from the Ridley book, which you've read and I haven't[31]. I also agree that it shouldn't be an entire section [32], and I've invited you (and any others who are willing) to work with me to integrate the material into the main text[33]. I've also pared down the material from the excessive length it once had, in proportion to the importance of the topic and the resources at hand. You obviously have a great deal of respect for Crick, as do I. But please don't let that emotion cloud your judgement as an editor. Can we lay off the incivility and threats and work together to come to a resolution and improve the article? Badgerpatrol 17:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It is traditional in Wikipedia to admit newspapers as reliable sources. I accept DGG's ranking of the reliability of the various newspapers that he provided above. Robin McKie's article in the Guardian appears completely credible, but you should note that McKie chooses his words very carefully, and I think we should be similarly careful as to who used what. So far nobody has made a plausible connection between Crick's apparent drug use and his scientific work, so I'd be reluctant to include anything suggesting that. However the mere fact that he used drugs appears to be encyclopedic.

I think it would be hard to defend the complete text of this section about drug use that JWSchmidt removed from the article on 19 August, but some part of that might be retained. EdJohnston 22:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me, although I think McKie is fairly unambiguous really ([Crick] "...came perilously close to being investigated by the police when an acquaintance was jailed for manufacturing LSD (one of Crick's drugs of choice"). Best way forward is for John to alter the section to a wording that he finds acceptable, and we can then discuss it from there. Badgerpatrol 10:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Also, I don't think DGG is so much ranking the sources 1-4 as describing them each in turn with numbers for reference- not sure if that's what you literally meant? Badgerpatrol 10:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My conclusion is that none of the sources commented on by DGG can be excluded using the WP:RS rule alone. They are all from newspapers, and newspapers are considered reliable sources. I don't object to the use of editorial judgment to sift this material down to three sentences or so, because we don't have to include EVERYTHING ever written about Crick. When creating those three sentences, it is useful to keep in mind DGG's observations about the journalistic quality of the newspapers and the writers. I think User:Badgerpatrol might go ahead and draft up new text to propose at Talk:Francis Crick based on whatever he concludes from the comments here. We shouldn't practice content-based censorship (excluding a report of something because of what the report says) but I imagine we could rely more on sources that are perceived to be of higher quality. EdJohnston 15:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've already had a little go at this [34] per DGG's initial comments above, but I think there is still fat to be trimmed and the material should be integrated into the man text if we can find a suitable place for it. Badgerpatrol 15:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• I stand by my personal view that User:Badgerpatrol's approach to editing the "Involvement with psychedelic drugs" section of the Francis Crick article has been an unproductive waste of time. User:Badgerpatrol has taken the position that it makes sense to add into the Francis Crick article anything published by a source calling itself a newspaper. The refusal by User:Badgerpatrol to participate in a reasoned and responsible effort to make informed decisions about what is relevant to the Francis Crick article is upsetting to me. User:Badgerpatrol persists in in the position that Wikipedia should include an absurd rumor about the influence of LSD on Crick's scientific work, a rumor from a non-reliable source. This absurdity has been explicitly refuted by one of Crick's biographers. No reputable news source has repeated the absurd rumor. Has the "news" source that published the absurd rumor shown any journalistic integrity in this matter? The "news" source that published the absurd rumor only published this rumor after Crick died because Crick had promised to sue anyone who published the rumor. If this "news" source had editorial integrity then I think it would now retract the absurd story it published. This is the caliber of editorial oversight that User:Badgerpatrol brings to Wikipedia and persists in forcing on the Francis Crick article. "If you want to change the wording then please go ahead and do it" <-- I have repeatedly requested that someone provide a justification for including mention of drugs in the Francis Crick article. There are thousands of pages of published biographical information about Crick in reliable sources. None of these reliable biographical sources provide any kind of a justification for the idea that drugs contributed to Crick's work or to his fame. Ridley's book about Crick has one small section that addresses Crick's drug use and the main point it makes is that the rumor about LSD contributing to Crick's scientific work on DNA is an absurd claim. Ridley explicitly refutes the story from the "news" source that User:Badgerpatrol insists on adding to Wikipedia. I suggest that User:Badgerpatrol take this crusade to a new Wikipedia page, Sensationalized, absurd and refuted claims about drug use by famous people. "I've invited you (and any others who are willing) to work with me to integrate the material into the main text" <-- I refuse your invitation and I still request a reason for including mention of drugs in the article. I do not think it is unreasonable to demand that such a reason be built upon citation of multiple reliable published sources that explain why drugs are relevant to Crick's life and fame. There are some famous scientists who published descriptions of their drug use and speculated about the role of their drug use in their scientific work. In such cases, there might be reason to mention drug use in a biographical Wikipedia article about a scientist. Crick does not fall into this category. --JWSchmidt 20:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

OK John, I'll keep this short because I'm fed up wasting my time responding to your sillyness:

1) Lay off the personal attacks. if you can't be civil, say nothing. 2) For casual readers of this debate, it's important to clarify that nobody disputes that Crick was an LSD user. All sources agree on this, and I believe John accepts this also. 3) The issue therefore seems to be, is it reasonable to state that Crick's drug use had any influence on his work? Here the evidence is more equivocal. I've invited John to alter the wording of the relevant material to a form that he finds acceptable. He has refused to do so. 4) Until now, the issue of relevance has been subordinated to John's bizarre belief that newspapers are somehow inherently unreliable (as stated above, there are now at least three known sources for Crick's drug use, including two national newspapers and a published biography of Crick by Matt Ridley, as well as numerous contextual sources establishing the involvement of the Crick's with figures in the drug scene. The wording of all these sources is crystal clear and unambiguous). I am happy to work with others (as stated ad nauseum) to pare down this material (and the article generally, which is overlong) to an acceptable length and to give this issue no more than the space it deserves in the context of what it is a biography of Crick's life. Not just his work. 5) Note that it was not me who originally added the material pertaining to Crick's involvement with drugs to the article. I have already worked to cut this material in half, have expressed repeatedly my opinion that it should not constitute a separate section, have added new references and rewritten the material to reflect the nature of the sources and the importance of the topic, have engaged in a civil (from my side) discussion on talk re the whole subject, and I have invited John on numerous occasions to work with me to continue this work and add the reference material that he has to hand and I do not. Without meaning to get personal, diatribes like the one above are the thanks I have received. 6) I will work to pare down the material and integrate it into the main text, per what seems to be the emerging consensus amongst the editors that have contributed so far to this discussion on Talk:Francis Crick and in this thread. If you want to continue this discussion with me John, keep a civil tongue in your head, otherwise say nothing at all. I have treated you with courtesy and respect at all times - I expect the same in reciprocation. If you can't manage that, leave. I will continue to work on Francis Crick in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Do not expect a response from me to personal attacks, incivility and patronising diatribes. Badgerpatrol 21:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Internet Broadway Data Base

Reliable source, or as worthless as it's apparent namesake (IMDB)? WilyD 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• Looks good to me, as they claim to have fact checking - "We will need verification of submissions of cast/crew participation in a show (a copy of the theatre program usually suffices). Please fax or mail the verification along with a note explaining the correction/addition to" Corpx 15:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

LiveJournal and fandom protest reports

Hi, there's a content dispute over whether the recent changes to this article meet WP:RS and WP:NOR's standards. It appears that veteran editors believe the inclusion does not meet the criteria, but it is pretty tricky with the usage of "self-published" news sites to back up the claims of the anons and new users. Looking for some input since this is a, seemingly, gray area. Kyaa the Catlord 21:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• I've had a look at the FireFox News page and I wonder if it would be better described as a blog than a news site? If so I think there would be problems using it as a verifiable source. Xdenizen 22:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely certain. The articles I have read there certainly have some bloggish tendancies and are definately not what I'd call unbiased journalism. They have a "blogs" section and often blur the boundaries between the two. (Such as the author of the story in question having BOTH a blog and a news "byline".) Kyaa the Catlord 22:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Given that established editors have problems with using the FFN info as a verifiable source and the doubts you've raised here, it would probably be wisest if those who wish to include those changes sought a more acceptable source. Xdenizen 23:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

What article are we talking about? Corpx 15:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

LiveJournal sorry I forgot to include that. Kyaa the Catlord 15:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Majid Kavousifar and Hossein Kavousifar

Really not certain what should happen to this page. It purports to be summary of the mob-execution of two men convicted of assassinating a judge. The photos appear to follow the summary, but there is no sourcing, no confirmation that the summary is a true version of what the photos show. For all we know it could be a fiction attached to unrelated photos. And then there's the issue of whether this belongs on the project in the first place, even if it is true. Does not seem to fit any Speedy criteria, and really not sure if it should be AFDed. But I do know that it is improper in it's current unsourced state, and that I simply do not have the knowledge to try to fix it myself. So I hope someone else can help clean it up, or help decide to toss it at AFD. - TexasAndroid

Well, it is sourced (two articles... one from Yahoo news, and one from iranfocus.com), however the sources could be better. The photos come from these two sources, and it is a copywrite violation to use them here. I have removed them. I have also cut the "play by play" summary that followed the photos. All that the article needs to say is that the two were convicted and executed by hanging. That leaves the issue of notability... are these two people notable and/or is their execution notable? It may be too current to tell. Blueboar 15:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

<Sigh> Sometimes I look and look and just do not see. You're right about the sources being there. <Sigh> Still, thanks for the clean-up assist anyway. - TexasAndroid 15:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, as I was updating and cleaning up, it seems the Yahoo article was taken off line (the link is dead). So I have cut that as well. This leaves just the focusiran.com source... which does not really say all that much (also it is a non-profit "news agency" that may not be reliable ... don't know enough about it to say for sure, but it smells like an issue advocacy web site to me.) Definitely needs better sourcing... or perhaps merits a Prod or AfD (but I would need to figure out what category applies before I did so.) Blueboar 15:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I fail to see any historic notability for this incident, per WP:NOT#NEWS Corpx 06:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Skinny Bitch

Hi. I wrote a stubby but properly sourced article about a book called Skinny Bitch. A new editor keeps introducing poorly written and poorly sourced additions about a Chicago radio program. The edits are not vandalism, so I am bound by the 3RR. Can someone help? I already tried politely reasoning with the editor on her talk page, with little result.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Took care of it Blueboar 19:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Blueboar.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 19:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Lords of Chaos (book)

A dispute between me and Cyrus XIII about the NPOV of my contributions to Lords of Chaos (book) has escalated into an edit war. I can't see any substance in his accusations. Lords of Chaos has some - mildly put- controversial content. I disagree with this content, but I definitely think it has to be included in the article. In my opinion Cyrus XIII is referring to WP:NPOV and WP:EL in an attempt to keep this content out of Wikipedia, thus censoring the article. We are both experienced editors and I don't think that one of use is going to make the 'mistake' of braking the 3 revert rule. Zara1709 15:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

NewsInsider.org for Sanctity of Life Act

Is this article a reliable source for the statement, "If passed, the bill would have caused abortion to be treated as murder"? For background please see http://www.newsinsider.org/faq.html -- I note they have an editorial structure, but I don't know if they have a fact-checking system in place. ←Ben^B4 07:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say no. It looks to me like a blog run by a bunch of people Corpx 07:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree... at best it might be reliable for stating: "It is the opinion of Simi Lipsan (the author of the newsinsider.org article) that, if passed, the bill would have caused abortion to be treated as murder." Of course, inclusion of that opinion in a Wikipedia article would depend on the article's topic and whether Simi Lipsan is considered an expert on the subject. Blueboar 14:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Corpx. That site seems like a news-blog to me. If they reorganized in the future it could be a WP:RS - but not at the moment. Like Blueboar says if you were even including a quote from Simi Lipsan you'd need to ask - how much weight does that opinion have?--Cailil ^talk 19:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

www.onlineworldofwrestling.com

Apologies for bringing this to the administrators noticeboard, I'm sure there is a better place for this (and if so please point me in the right direction). How does one judge reliable sources? I have found a site which appears on 2522 different Wikipedia pages, called www.onlineworldofwrestling.com [35] and am finding that a large number of articles are relying on this site as not just their primary source of information, but the sole source of information. Considering that anyone can pay the $25.00 to submit a profile to this site, and then in turn have it used to source a Wikipedia article, I have my doubts as to its reliability. Is this cause for concern, or no big deal? Burntsauce 21:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Reliable Sources/Noticeboard exists for exactly this purpose. WilyD 21:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(the above has been copied to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard at the suggestion of WilyD.)

This is unfamiliar territory for me, but I am writing to inquire about the reliability of sources such as onlineworldofwrestling.com which are being used as primary and in most cases sole sources to create articles about professional wresters, many of whom are living people. Burntsauce 21:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It appears it has less control over content than Wikipedia - here it doesn't cost anything to fix them, there it does. I would believe this is not a reference at all, or if it is, it is certainly not a reliable source and should not be the sole reference. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 21:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Concur. Online equivalent of a vanity press, although they do claim to have some standards. Still not a reliable source by a long, long way. Sandstein 22:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(reindent) If this is consensually deemed as an unreliable source, what is to be done about the hundreds, neigh, thousands of articles in Category:American professional wrestlers and similar categories? Burntsauce 22:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I picked one at random, Colt Cabana, and that has plenty of different sources. You need to make a list of all the articles that only use the unreliable source, or just get that source removed from all articles and put on a blacklist. Though note that I don't really know how this works. Hopefully those who post here regularly will give better advice. Carcharoth 22:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Here are a handful of examples for consideration: Rodney Begnaud, Dwayne Bruce, David Cash, Jonathan Coachman, and Mark Copani. Burntsauce 22:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Untrue, someone familiar with the area of professional wrestling I can confirm everything that I've seen at this site has been researched pretty carefully and reported accurately. I've also spoken to the creator of the site and he seems reliable enough for a source here. Burntsauce, you're just looking for reasons to falsely use WP:BLP and WP:V on the Pro Wrestling WikiProject, which you have been known to do. — Moe ε 22:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with Moe Epsilon. Onlineworldofwrestling.com is perhaps they best professional wrestling site in existence, sometimes even providing more accurate and detailed information than the official company websites. Gavyn Sykes 22:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Moe, you have been warned once before regarding your personal attacks. You are welcome to cite examples where I've falsely applied the BLP policy, otherwise I strongly urge you to retract the statement. Thank you. Burntsauce 23:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticizing your judgement isn't a personal attack, I thought this had been explained to you. You want to know where? Warrior (wrestler), Rodney Anoai, Stacy Keibler, need I go on? — Moe ε 23:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that IMDb is generally not considered a reliable source as well when dealing with the biographies of living people. It may be the "best movie site in existence" just as onlineworldofwrestling may be the best pro-wrestling site in existence. That is irrelevant, and does necessarily not make it a reliable source. WP:ILIKEIT does not apply. Burntsauce 23:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That is not a fair comparison. IMDB is not considered reliable because anyone can edit it and add false information. Not anyone can edit the profiles of Onlineworldofwrestling.com. Nikki311 00:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way Moe, edits like this [36] are totally unacceptable. Burntsauce 23:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

And WP:IDONTLIKEIT applies to you as well. You haven't made a accurate case saying that it is unrelaible and cleverly dodged the fact that I can cite places where BLP was used uncorrectly on your part. And FYI, you're entirely wrong. BLP doesn't apply to the Terry Gerwin article. The commentary has to be contentious for you to remove it and it wasn't simple as that. There is no BLP concern there. BLP doesn't apply everytime an article is unsourced. — Moe ε 23:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Moe. The Hybrid 23:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, OWW is a mixed bag in my view. For the most part, they are accurate..however they have had mistakes as well. In my opinion, they are basically a glorified fansite that wrestling fans take too seriously at times. Sourcing for wrestling articles is an issue: but frankly OWW shouldn't be the only source for articles. I've seen it used as the only source several times, as it seems to be the "default" link and reference listed if people can't (or simply don't want to) find anything else. RobJ1981 01:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Blacklisting the link isn't really a fair choice since this site contains info concerning the early years of several undoubtly notable wrestlers, however wwe.com and tnawrestling.com should be used more often for info inside kayfabe excluding injuries and other legitimate issues, I find it hard to assume good faith here considering Burnsauce's attitude towards wrestling articles in the past. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Burntsauce what is this, the crusade to destroy WP:PW? Anyway, OWW is a reliable source as it provides wrestling results years back and without that website, who knows what would happen with wrestling articles today. Blacklisting it would destroy WP:PW and most of its articles, including John Cena, Dave Bautista and The Undertaker. Cena I've nominated for FA, Batista and Taker are GA and they all have links to OWW. Davnel03 08:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it flawless? No, can anyone edit it? no - can current independent wrestlers get their profile on there for cash? sure they can. But are ALL the profiles there because someone paid for them? Not even close, the majority - 90-99% of them are created and researched by the contributors to the site, not for monetary reasons nor vanity as has been implied. Yeah maybe the "Kidz Kewl" profile is a vanity project, which is why WP:PW has a rule of thumb that says "Just cause it's on Onlineworldofwrestling" doesn't mean it's automatically notable enough to warrant inclusion on Wikipedia. And nor should it in my view be the ONLY source for an article. That's profiles covered, but the site has another and probably more important function, it's a repository of match results from a lot of federations over a long period of time - which is used as a reference when article mention specific matches (the overcitation in the wrestling articles that cause EVERY match to be cited in places is a direct result of the missapplication of WP:BLP that Burntsauce has championed). Are the results reliable? I'd say yes, they're basically a recap of what people have seen on TV, except you can't use your own personal viewing of the program as a source, you need a secondary source - Onlineworldofwrestling provides such a secondary source, it's neutral and recaps the results and happenings without it being a review or a rant or anything like that, just a run down of results and happenings usually. Those results can be verified against 3-4-5 different independent sources in a heartbeat to prove that they are indeed correct 99% of the time. I agree that articles that only cite OWOW need to have more sources added to help establish the notability of the subject but it shouldn't be blacklisted. MPJ-DK 10:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow... with a entry criteria of "no yard tards"[37] and 25$ (or a dvd the site owner doesn't have yet) and "1 year of full time wrestling" I can't believe this is even a debate! OWW is a tertiary source, and as such should usually NOT be relied upon by as the sole source in an article. Also given the exceptionally low entry criteria the site is unusable as a gauge of notability. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 14:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously you are unfamiliar with professional wrestling. The "no yard tards" rule and the $25 submission to have a profile placed on the site makes it extremly more of a valuable source. This requirement will put a limit on unnotable wrestlers going on the site, and I think the owner has been doing a great job of that. We also have a rule at WP:PW that not every wrestler on OWW is notable. No one said we should be using these as a source alone, but blacklisting it because Burntsauce has it in for the professional wrestling WikiProject, is completely nonsense. No one is using as a gauge of notability either. Your points are entirely moot. — Moe ε 15:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't need to know anything to know that this site is about as reliable as any self-published source on the internet. Also, continued attacks on the credibility of those who disagree with you only serve to highlight the fact that you have no actual defense of the credibility of the website. I see no claims that the website has any of the hallmarks of a real reliable source: editorial review, etc. It's not our job to prove it's unreliable - It's your job to prove it is. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, here's evidence it's a reliable source, I've picked a line from The Undertakers article - but finally defeated Kennedy in a Last Ride match at Armageddon 2006[128], which directs to this, which quote: LAST RIDE MATCH: The Undertaker defeated Mr. Ken Kennedy.. The Undertaker tombstoned Mr. Kennedy on top of the hurse and then put the bloody Kennedy inside of the hurse.. . Now, J.smith, please tell me why OWW isn't reliable having just provided you with a perfectly good example of why it is reliable. EDIT: By the way, Burntsauce has gone AWOL since this started... Davnel03 18:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources are fact-checked, peer-reviewed, edited, proof-read, and things like that. There isn't much checking or editing of any sort going on on the site under discussion. What is a hurse anyway? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Davne103, that made me smile. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 14:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that I do not feel that this site is a very reliable source. It has lots of rumors, is far from comprehensive, and has lots of other errors/mistakes. While it is not directly user-generated, much of the info comes from contributors who e-mail them, and a lot of it is not even formatted or checked for spelling. It is a decent fansite, but to use it as a source is asking for trouble. In fact, there is some strange notion that every match by a wrestler needs to be cited, which is probably just a bit over the top, and we should use published sources to document notable facts, not predetermined wrestling matches. Biggspowd 17:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that there shouldn't be a need to cite every single wrestling match event in a wrestling article. Sadly it has happened time and time again that even wrestling results and title lists have been blanked citing "WP:BLP says it should all be cited or deleted" (or references to "mail from Jimbo"), forcing the pro wrestling project to get down and in effect oversource everything to the exessive extent it's seen in places. Considering that this user has the backing of several admins it's seen as a defacto rule and thus to avoid having articles gutted down to "XXX is a pro wrestler" articles go in the opposite direction. It's not by choice, well not the choice of the article editors but the choice of those who remove everything not sourced. MPJ-DK 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability is policy and is non-negotiable. Citations facilitate verifiability. None of this is new. Yes, if something is unsourced and someone questions it... it needs to be cited or removed. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL this is a circular argument isn't it? someone says "it's over cited", I explain why then someone goes "Well it's policy" - Now I'm just waiting for someone come in and say "man those wrestling articles are seriously overcited" to keep this infinity loop of logic going ad nauseum. Count me out, I'm getting off the carousel. MPJ-DK 06:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"The Racial Slur Database", "Roadjunky.com", and two personal homepages

I would appreciate editors' thoughts on the third-party reliability of The Racial Slur Database, Roadjunky.com and two personal homepages that copy verbatim an essay entitled "Japanyes;THE THIRD EDITION" of publicly unverifiable origin [38][39]. All four citations are used to justify the following contentious and exceptional clause in the gaijin article: "...[gaijin] is considered a racial slur by many to whom the word is applied." J Readings 10:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Is "Louis Leclerc" a noted expert in this field of study? I don't see anything that sujusts that this is the case. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting. No, he is not a Japanese linguist, a lexicographer, a literary expert or even a noted Japanese specialist (to my knowledge.) This is part of the problem. Another editor insists that because these sources can be found on the internet, the word gaijin must be considered a racial slur by default. I'd also appreciate your opinion on sites like The Racial Slur Database and Roadjunky.com. Personally, I'm very skeptical of these sources, but I'd like to know what others think. J Readings 21:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these are reliable sources for the claims made. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi in that regard. I don't see any evidence that those are reliable sources. Also, you might want to point out that drawing conclusions based on evidence is the definition of original research. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 14:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wonder World

Looking for additional opinions on an article I've become involved with. There have been a number of fictional theme parks by this name over time, and there was an AFD deleted article at this location at one point on a fan-made theme park within one of the Roler Coaster tycoon games. Recently someone created a stub on another of the fictional Wonder Worlds, that was PRODed, and then convered into a sub-stub about a real Wonder World park in San Marcos, Texas. I then found the page on the Short Pages list and, being from the area, decided I could at least create a viable stub on the existing amusement park. At first I only sourced the park with it's own web page, and the article was properly tagged for sourcing and again PRODed. I have now added several more sources, mostly from travel sites, and officially contested the PROD. I also found that the cave that is the core of the park is an official Texas Historical Site, and tracked down the offical designation page for this on the Texas government web site.

Which brings the article to where it currently stands. The park is well known around the central Texas area, and is mentioned prominently on many pages that talk about what attractions San Marcos has to offer. But these are all effectively "trivial" sources because they really are just mentions. And I'm not 100% certain that the travel sites that I did find would qualify as "reliable" sourcing, though they are definitely not "trivial". Anyway, I would like for some additional opinions on the page and it's current sourcing. Between the travel sites and the official Texas Historical Site designation page, is the article sufficiently sourced now for a stub? If so, would someone neutral please judge if the sourcing tag still belong. Or, on the other extreeme, do I still have more work to make this a viable stub? - TexasAndroid 15:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Lauder

A (terribly polite) dispute at Talk:Lauder on the reliability of older historical works when these do not correspond with more recent interpretations. Any input much appreciated. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really a Reliable Sources issue... it is more a NPOV issue. The older works are certainly reliable by our definition, even if they are, arguably, outdated. This could be solved by textual attribution of who said what (and when) and an explanation of what current scholarship is. Don't claim either view is "correct"... simply present them both with explanation of the pros and cons for each argument. Blueboar 14:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Without delving into the particulars of the situation if older sources disagree with equally legitimate newer sources then the newer sources are usually more relevant. However, if old disagrees with new there is often an important story to be told there. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, newer scholarship is usually more relevant (but not always more accurate)... The point is that when there is a dispute between different sources we don't make the judgement as to which is "right" or "wrong"... we discribe both views and discuss the dispute in a neutral tone. Blueboar 16:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wolfsegg Iron

Seems to be a hoax until there are no real sources. Anyone has an idea for getting facts? Greetings, Conny 19:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC).

Existing in Charles Fort's book would lend at least notability to the subject. Also, the article mentions a Nature article on the subject. If someone can produce that article they could use it rewrite the article. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Relatively minor Martial Arts books about those arts

Okay, I'm thinking of two articles in question with this query, but the principle applies to other articles. There are a number of relatively small martial arts schools with articles on Wikipedia. They have been discussed in multiple independent sources so notability is obvious. Shaolin-Do just survived an AfD with a pretty heavy consensus on the grounds that notability was shown by a number of newspaper articles in major newspapers discussing or mentioning that art.

However, the amount of information in those articles about these arts is usually only enough for a stub. From these newspaper articles you could gather what type of martial art it is (Kung Fu/Karate/Jujitsu/Tae Kwon Do ect), who runs the school, and typically where they teach and maybe a few short snippets of history or philosophy of that school. To get anything more than a stub (or at absolute most, a start-class article) you'd need more sources than that.

However, many of these schools have books about them, which include more elaborate histories, discussions of philosophy and training techniques, and a lot of information that would be useful for creating an encyclopedia article. These books are published by independent, reputable publishing firms, although they are written by heads or instructors of those schools. There has been some dispute over whether these are considered primary sources or secondary sources, and if they are considered reliable sources. They have been written by people very closely affiliated with the subject, but they have been published by an outside reputable publishing house and have presumably thus been through an independent editorial review. It could be seen as a secondary source, since it's not self published and it's been reviewed and approved by a mainstream publishing house which decided to take the financial and reputation risk on publishing it. It is argued by some editors that it is a primary source since it's written by a source very close to the subject.

I was curious what other editors thought about this issue, which would it be considered? --Wingsandsword 23:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Popular books on martial arts styles and schools are notoriously superficial, marked by innumerable errors and clichés. The vetting process in publishing houses is primarily 'will it sell and allow us to recoup, with a profit' the publishing costs, not whether it is 'reliable'. There are excellent books in Chinese, Japanese and Korean with detailed historical accounts of the various traditions surrounding these schools, and those sources are the best. In-house traditions handed down from 'masters' to 'students' who in turn are nominated as masters are highly tendentious, and often reflect sectarian needs to promote an ostensibly novel approach and theory, established by the founding master, to restore a 'tradition' that other schools have lost. In fact, the asserted difference is grounded on commercial calculations (to open a school with a secret tradition passed from one master to another means you can lock in students at higher rates. The tea ceremony or Zen archery can be learnt more quickly than the 10/15 year training formally required by a master to give you a teaching certificate. The lengthy span of time does not indicate difficulty: it simply means more income to the teacher, and more authority over his charges) or personal rivalries, and rarely based on a proper understanding on the intricate politics of martial art schools. The snippets, especially, dealing with 'oriental philosophy' are mainly hand-me down clichés that take on bizarre forms when re-expounded by Westerners who do not have a grasp of the doctrinal backgrounds.Nishidani 09:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I was not clear, I don't mean general-purpose books on martial arts as references in general on martial arts, or mass-market books being used in general martial arts articles. I mean books about specific small arts/schools in articles about those arts/schools. This would seem like an ideal source, but some editors have raised a controversy over these books because they were written by people closely tied to those schools/arts, even if they were published by an outside entity.

Let's say sources are needed for a specific article about (fictional example, there are a number of martial arts articles in this general scenario, I'm using a generic example) Fubuki-ryu Jujutsu, a new style created 40 years ago in Hawaii. This school has a number of newspaper articles and a short magazine article or two about it, but none in particular depth. For the article to be more than a stub you'll need more in-depth sources. However, an instructor of this school has written a book about Fubuku-ryu and it was published by a mainstream publisher in the US. Even an excellent book in Chinese, Japanese or Korean may discuss jujitsu as a whole, but not that form of jujitsu specifically in terms of it's history, doctrine or how it differs from other forms of jujitsu. Some editors have cast doubts on the validity of these books as references because they could be considered Primary Sources since they were written by someone close to the subject of the article, even though they were published and edited away from the source. Thus, I was asking for opinions on whether or not a book in such a circumstance would be considered primary or secondary sources, not whether or not a mass-market book on martial arts would be a good general reference for martial arts articles. --Wingsandsword 12:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Article about Smail ferroudj verification source

if someone knows about this player please send us more informations about him your help is appreciated

Maybe the Reference Desk is what you are looking for? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 00:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Using Michael Neumann as a source for remark on Raul Hilberg

I've been asked to repost this here from 'Reliable Sources'.

'I've been slightly worried, I think needlessly, but I am not expert on these rules, about possible objections to my using Michael Neumann as a source for a remark on Raul Hilberg as a life-long Republican voter. He wrote an 'In Memorian' article in Counterpunch recently. Michael Neumann is, for some (not myself) a controversial figure: Counterpunch is attacked as an, intrinsically, 'unreliable source', a view I find questionable (it depends on who wrote the article: they host people there who have long public records as senior administration officials and tenured academics).

Michael Neumann happens to be the son of Franz Neumann, who was Raul Hilberg's Phd supervisor, and oversaw the drafting of that historical masterpiece. There's a family connection, in short. If someone out there thinks this questionable, I'd appreciate a note.Nishidani 14:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)'Nishidani 08:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Counterpunch

Recently, a feature article by Debbie Nathan appearing in Counterpunch was challenged as an unreliable source in a biographical article. The article is factual journalism, not editorial content, and the challenger has not stated specific concrete objections to the article, since there may be BLP issues. Nathan is a feature writer for New York Magazine, as well as a published author. I don't personally see the sourcing problem, but I respect the editor who's raising the objection, so I wanted to get the views of more editors. --Ssbohio 02:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

After reading CounterPunch, I'm not really sure if they're really a reliable source. They have an editorial staff of two people, with the intent to bring "stories that the corporate press never prints". Just my .02 though Corpx 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

GenerationQ

A similar challenge has been made to the use of GenerationQ as a source. GenerationQ is an online magazine aimed at LGBT young adults, particularly young gay men. It covers news of particular interest to this community. In its favor, it enjoys a broad international readership. However, it is an online rather than a paper source, and some of its reporting has been used in a biographical article that's part of WikiProject LGBT Studies, but that the article's subject self-identifies as not being part of the LGBT community. The article specifically cites facts (and includes references) demonstrating that the subject of the article's business dealings are inconsistent with his public statements. Additionally, the facts stated in the article are supported by two primary sources written and posted online by the article's subject. Similar to the question of CounterPunch, an editor is challenging a reference to this source backed up by references to the two corroborating primary sources. How is the reliability of a source like this determined, and how is that applied when the article is a biography of a living person? Fundamentally, I want to know: is this a reliable source? --Ssbohio 02:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Collective (BBC)

Is this site reliable? This is in reference to its use as a reference in Optimo for a statement that an anonymous editor has just removed for the third time. It seems like some of their content is user-submitted and I kind of doubt they're held to the same editorial standard as the rest of the bbc, although the article in question was at least written by a freelance journalist.--P4k 06:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I would take the article at face value if it's attributed to the author. Also, this seems to be a writeup of an interview for which the audio is available on the Collective site. If this is an interview with the actual musician, and if you listen to it yourself, that might help to confirm what you say. (I didn't try to straighten out all the people's names, so I don't know if the person interviewed is the one whose song is being discussed). The item that this provides a reference for seems to be a fairly minor point, so I don't know how hard you are planning to work to get that fact included. EdJohnston 16:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America sourced for contentious factual claims

I have added tags to those statements in Battle of Jenin for which I could not replace CAMERA with a journalistic reliable source. It seems clear to me both from WP:RS and past editing experience that partisan pressure groups are not generally used as reliable sources. According to the wikipedia page for CAMERA: "News media cite CAMERA as an advocate of Israel [40] and discuss the organization's mobilisation for the support of Israel in the form of full-page ads in newspapers [41], organizing demonstrations, and encouraging sponsor boycotts. [42] Critics of CAMERA call its "non-partisan" claims into question and define its alleged biases." No editors appear to be disputing their partisan nature; according to User:Isarig "You are confusing 'partisan' with 'non reliable'. The two are not same, or even similar. CAMERA meets every requirement WP has for reliable sources." (Note that I am not arguing with use of attributed POV statements from CAMERA expressing their analyses, rather I take issue with their use as a source for wikipedia-voice statements of fact like "Palestinian Minister Abu said X on date Y.^[1]")

On a related issue - and uninvolved editors feel free to refactor out this comment if it's clearly in the wrong place - is not the removal of such maintenance tags ([43],[44]) without some approximation of consensus built on talk considered very bad practice if not outright disruptive editing? Eleland 16:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

CAMERA's claims stated as "Palestinian Minister Abu said X on date Y.^[1]" are footnoted with the name and date of the publication where the quoted individual made the statement. Interested parties cam easily check the named reference and verify it says what is claimed. CAMERA itself denies it is partisan, and WP:RS does not disallow partisan sources - it only asks that they be used cautiously on BLPs. The claims sourced to CAMERA (as a secondary source) which you are objecting to are not 'contentious factual claims' at all - they are quotes of primary sources, with name & date of the primary source provided. Isarig 16:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The relevant footnote is simply "19. ^{^ a b c d e} CAMERA". see ([[45]]) Eleland 17:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The "CAMERA" part of that is actualy a link to a specific CAMERA article, namely this one, where all the claims are duly described with the primary source, e.g.: "April 13, Erekat, on CNN", or 'April 10, Sha'ath claimed, “We have 300 martyrs in Jenin in the last few days.” (Agence France Presse)" Isarig 17:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

comment by involved editor - it doesn't matter what side a source is allegedly supporting as long as it's references and statements are reliable. for the same reason, i cannot remove The Guardian articles or the BBC despite their anti-israel bias (and countless errors). there is nothing beyond "they say they support israel" or "they only correct anti-israeli POV" to justify the claim that the source in unreliable. on top of this many of the "needs more reliable reference" statements have similar statements expressed on other references and up to now camera notes have been fairly easily verified. we are discussing reliability in report and there is no validated reason to suspect camera as more unreliable than the major news medias they are quoting or criticizing... to the contrary even. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment by involved editor - there may be times we use CAMERA for facts (about Israel sources - not about Palestinian sources as we've done in this case). But in general we'd have to treat them as extremely dubious because of their aggression and distortion. Here's a fairly random example of the latter, quibbling about words spoken (likely repeatedly) by Israel's most famous militarist. Moshe Dayan wasn't in the business of claiming land for Israel by buying it! PalestineRemembered 17:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Your example shows that CAMERA corrected a misquote. Nobody is claiming the text, as provided by CAMERA, is incorrect, and tha the text CAMERA complained about was, in fact, inaccurate. It appears to substantiate that it is a reliable source. Isarig 18:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It is nonsense to suggest that Moshe Dayan was going round lecturing students on the acquisition of land by purchase (which in any case only amounted to quite a small proportion of the land of Israel). Dayan was a war-hero with a black patch over one eye, that's why people wanted to here him speak. He was quite open about these things, he said to Rami Tal "in the period between 64 and 67 when there were a lot of incidents on the border between Israel and Syria about 80% of these incidents were started by Israel".

And nobody reading CAMERA's claims would think they were capable of being RS (though I don't doubt many of the individual facts are true, and in some cases, one might wish to quote them). And their "refutation" in this case is based on their insistence that Dayan only said that Israel was all built on places where Arabs had lived once at this particular lecture. Pilger quotes him saying it at his retirement, so CAMERA simply have no idea what he said, they're grabbing at straws. PalestineRemembered 20:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

CAMERA did not correct a misquote, full stop. It restored the original text, and then went on to paraphrase it. Dayan, properly cited, remarks:'-In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages.'

The paraphrase runs:'In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.'

This is highly dubious, if not indeed, an intentionally misleading gloss. For the paraphrase drops the crucial In a considerable number of places (meaning implicitly, '- in many other places what I am saying about buying the land from Arabs where our villages now are does not apply. I.e. that land was taken without purchase). Dayan, contrary to what CAMERA writes, is admitting that in many cases dispossession did occur (He was, admirably, more objective than CAMERA and is on record as admitting many ruses were employed to grab disputed land by pure force). One could name any number of reasons why this is bad reporting (who were the Arabs? The fellahin driven off the fields they had traditionally worked? Or absentee landlords in Beirut and Amman, who sold the lands to Jewish agencies, who then dispossessed the tenants, as was often the case?)

This then is not an example of 'Accuracy', it is a matter of unilaterally spinning information to one party's advantage. Were it to live up to its name 'Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America' it would have a huge amount of its work cut out just correcting the almost systematic way most Middle Eastern Countries neighbouring on Israel are also subject to misreporting. Hence its very name belies, and indeed misrepresents its partisan focus. I commend them for defending the cause of Israel, but they shouldn't pretend that this is an undertaking for a spirit of dignified neutrality on The Middle East. It is a mediatic lobby, which cherrypicks the news like Fox, and, I suggest, most major News Sources, and has an agenda, as we can see in its cleverly misleading paraphrase above, one as strong as Counterpunch's, or any other radical paper. Were it as honest as we are rightly called on to be in here in drafting wiki articles it would replace 'Middle East' with 'Israel' which it won't do, I think to its discredit. For there is nothing intrinsically wrong about a committee devoted to defending any one country's image, and pursuing an ideal of checking and combating perceived abuses in reportage on it. Many countries practice this.Nishidani 20:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So let me get this straight - the CAMERA article, which as you conced restored the original text, and then went on to paraphrase it is 'spinning information to one party's advantage' because it omits the qualifier ("In a considerable number of places"), but the article they were critiquing, which compeltly omitted the conetxt of Dyan talking about buying land - that text is ok, and should not be critiqued? Isarig 21:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

A point on syntactical implications that you appear to be unaware of. You wrote: 'Your example shows that CAMERA corrected a misquote. Nobody is claiming the text, as provided by CAMERA, is incorrect, and tha(t) the text CAMERA complained about was, in fact, inaccurate. It appears to substantiate that it is a reliable source.'

You are saying that, 'no one is claiming . .tha(t) the text CAMERA complained about was, in fact, inaccurate.'

In fact it was claimed, by CAMERA that the text they complained about was inaccurate. That was the reason for their just emendation of the truncated text. You meant, I presume 'accurate'?

(2) It was reliable in correcting a quote, wholly unreliably in explaining that quote, wilfully misrepresenting one of the meanings in Dayan's text. In restoring the quote, they then proceeded to distort its meaning. It's not difficult to check sources. It is quite difficult, I gather, to read them correctly, and CAMERA here is a 'reliable source' for the quote, and a completely unreliable source for its meaning.Nishidani 21:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to your analysis and opinion of the CAMERA explanation, but please realize it is your personal POV. The standard on WP is verifiability, not truth, and we do not engage in editor-generated analysis of sources. If the above quote was used in a WP article, I'd expect it to be presented as CAMERA's opinion, and if a RS commented on their explanation along the lines you have outlined, that could be presented as well. None of this has anything to do with CAMERA's status as a reliable source, certainly when the issues at hand are direct quotes, not explanations of them, cited to a primary source by CAMERA. As you wrote - "'CAMERA here is a 'reliable source' for the quote" - that's all that this dispuet is about.

Okay we are getting seriously sidetracked here, what are we talking about the Moshe Dayan quote for exactly? I mean PR is right, and anyone who knows the full context of this quote (where he talks about provoking border wars with Lebanon in order to steal farmland, etc) can see that, but this quote is not at all at issue in the article I was talking about. Eleland 21:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. What you were talking about is the use of quotes by CAMERA, where the direct quote is cited to a primary source by CAMERA. As Nishidani points out, CAMERA here is a 'reliable source' for the quote,. Isarig 01:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk about selective interpretation! Yes it might be reliable for quotes, but as Nishidani also points out, it is a completely unreliable source for its meaning. Can you guarantee that the source will only be used for quotes and that it will not be referenced for meaning? I very much doubt it. Number 57 08:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)