User talk:JJay

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Speedy tag

The article Woburn Gifted clearly does not fall under the description "it is an article about a real person that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject," with which you tagged it. It is an article about a school department. Please be more considerate with your use of these tags. But welcome to Wikipedia and good luck. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• In this case there was a convenient solution; redirect without merge to the school in question, Woburn Collegiate Institute, an article which in fact has info on this gifted program. This effectively destroys the bad content without needing recourse to AFD. I watched the page to ensure that the vandals do not undo the redirect. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Boltfish

Copyright issues are tricky. As per my comment on the deletion page- The label may be non-profit, but the boltfish site clearly asserts copyright (scroll to bottom of page) and has the same text as Wiki article [[1]] --JJay 23:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree it's a copyvio (and have marked it as such), it's just that for some reason the copyvio speedy criterion only applies to material copied from the website of a commercial content provider. --fvw* 23:25, 14 October 2005

(UTC)

AfD

Hey there! Thanks for helping out with creating AfDs. The one you made for Pandilla Graphica seems to refer to a nonexistent article. Which article was it that you wanted to set the AfD for? --HappyCamper 00:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The Mohican

Hey, thanks for working on RC Patrol to catch copyvios. You might also want to consider plinking the uploading user's page with {{nothanks-sd}}. I went ahead and used it on the anon's page. It's not a huge deal, I only just used it for the first time on the anon that uploaded that article, but I'd like to encourage other users to consider using it as well, just to help spread the gospel of trying to avoid copyright infringements. Keep up the good work! Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 06:23, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

...for extensive work on VFD. Molotov (talk)
23:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Je suis désolé vous n'ayez pas été d'accord avec moi sur le VfD, j'espériez que vous comprenez mon français. Note that I don't speak French. Molotov (talk)
20:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

That's true, how was my French? I imagine pretty bad because I don't speak any Molotov (talk)
21:04, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Your French?. C'est magnifique! --JJay 21:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The full quote is C'est magnifique, mais c'ne'pas le guerre / C'est magnifique, mais c'ne'pas la gare, both of which are actually criticisms. [depending on which version is referred to]. --Victim of signature fascism 15:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Really...it was all done at the electronic translation services, I personally speak Spanish and Portugues...pero no hablo cualquier palabra en francés, pues...adios. Molotov (talk)
21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

thanks for reverting the vandalism on my user page. At least we can't deny the guy/girl's got perseverance. DocendoDiscimus 17:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The Justin Frank article, and the appearance that JM and I are engaged in a flame war

I am sorry it looks like a flame war. I am trying my best to continue to keep my responses to JM as civil as possible, under the circumstances. I know they have accused me of calling them names. The record shows, however, this is untrue.

I have suggested that their edits, and attempts to subvert wiki procedures, give the strong appearance of bad faith. I stand by that. I don't think I am doing the wikipedia community any good by enduring their attacks without comment.

As you can see they have been attacking me personally, my judgement, maturity, grammar, intellectual honesty. And they have been following me around, and slapping bogus {copy-vio}, {AfD}, {npov}, {disputed} tags on just about every article I touch. Or they make massive excisions, unexplained, or with bald explanations like "removing obvious bias". Believe me, it is extremely unpleasant.

I know it is unpleasant to watch a flame war. But I don't think I am flaming back.

I went through almost whole week of unpleasantness from them, misrepresentations of what I said, ignoring my attempts to reach compromise, while I continued to reply in a textbook manner of conciliation and assuming good will. Or, at least, that is how I remember it. Finally their misrepresentations on the {copy-vio} page caused me to be prepared to be more blunt. And I openly said I thought they were giving the appearance of bad faith.

JM is following me around, and every article they see me edit they consider making a target for deletion. This phase of their attacks has been going on for six days now. And my well of ability to "assume good will" on their part is pretty well exhausted. Yes, I reply to those, I reply to their bogus {npov} tags, their bogus {disputed} tags, their unexplained massive excisions. Under the circumstances I think I am as civil as anyone could reasonably expect from me. Could I be wrong about that? Sure. I won't ask you to give our exchanges a more than cursory study. But, if you do give it a more than cursory study, and still think I should be more moderate in my replies to them, please feel free to tell me.

A couple of days ago they made a series of responsible mature edits. And since they were making comments in the talk pages to draw people's attention to the responsible efforts they made I gave them some sincere praise and encouragement, to show that I could assume good will as soon as they started acting responsibly. It seems to have backfired. It seems to have just triggered a further barrage of attacks.

Rolling back Justin Frank

I didn't paste the contents of Bush on the Couch into Justin Frank. You and I started editing out the obvious malice from the Justin Frank article at the same time. You finished first, when you scaled it back to a mere stub. I finished second, with my removal of the attacking material. Do you think I should revert my edit, back to your stub, to accomodate JM?

Do you think I should roll it back to your stub in case the result of the {AfD} is a delete? I think that deletion is unlikely at this point.

But, if you really think it is well advised to scale Justin Frank back to a mere stub, I will do so.

Thanks for your removal of the personal attack. -- Geo Swan 17:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Indu

Just wondering, why did you move Indu to [[2]]? It seems very strange. Thelb'⁴ 16:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

To move an article to a different location, don't include the web address. And you can't just 'move' things from Wikipedia to Wiktionary. Wiktionary is not another namespace. It has to be deleted by a sysop, then created on Wiktionary. Thelb'⁴ 18:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Can Al-Zubair ibn Abd al-Muttalib stay

Hi, I've modified AFD:Al-Zubair with facts and references. It would be nice if you can spare some time to read it, and hopefully to reconsider its deletion (or make some comments on my talk page). -- Goldie (tell me) 22:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scott Feinberg

Is there any reason why you removed a comment on this page? They should be left there as part of the public record. If it was because the comment was not signed, the proper resonse would have been to add the unsigned template. --JJay 13:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, shoddy editing, I did not intend to remove the comment. Rjayres 16:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyrights

Hallo JJay

Because of the articles (Iraqi Kurdistan front), (Action Party for the Independence of Kurdistan), (Conservative Party of Kurdistan), (Kurdistan National Democratic Union), (Kurdish Revolutionary Hizbullah), (Kurdistan Revolutionary Party) and (Kurdistan Socialist Democratic Party) I would like to say to them that the author John E. Pike permission given only whom John E. Pike mentioned becomes

Test

Iraqi Kurdistan Front (Kurdish: Berey Kurdistani Iraq) In 1988 the Kurdistan Democratic Party, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the KPDP, the Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran, and the Popular Alliance of Socialist Kurdistan together formed the Iraqi Kurdistan Front and and and and and

See also author: John E. Pike

Please again back the article (I thanks you) melat 16:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The author (John E. Pike) permitted only to whom its name in the article be stand you understand

JJay see Iraqi Kurdistan Front

you understand now

Hi JJay - I understand a bit of German, so I think I can help out a bit here...looks like he might want the material undeleted or something because he had permission to add it. I'll look into this further. --HappyCamper 17:06, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi HappyCamper

Die ganze zeit versuche ich JJay zur erklären das diese Artikel nur veröffentlichen darf wen der Autor des Artikel John E. Pike im Artikel stehet. ich habe gerade eine Beispiel gemacht in dem ich Iraqi Kurdistan Front veröffentlichte und gezeigt habe wo der Autor des Artikel stehen soll aber es wurde wieder gelöscht schau einfach rein. melat(UTC)

Copyright stuff

I have a feeling that none of that site's content is permissible on Wikipedia and will likely be deleted, if not by me, then by another admin. I've put in a request for Angr to take a look at it because he can speak German very well. See the bottom of his talk page for more details.

By the way, thanks for all your work with tagging copyrighted material on Wikipedia. It's a big help around here. :-) --HappyCamper 20:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll to my best to help ease understanding between Melat and other editors. His German isn't great either, though. Also, User:Melat is not actually a registered username; he edits under User:87.78.47.107, so I have moved User:Melat to User:87.78.47.107. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 21:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and now I'm going to delete that redirect... --HappyCamper 21:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Marevna

Could you kindly go back and have a look at it now! It is still very basic; but perhaps restoring the "stub" tag would help. At this stage it seems a pity to lose the links, since they may help competent editors to expand the article. (Not that they themselves cannot find them, if they have the time to make a search.) Many thanks! 09:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Modojo

You listed this article for CSD, and it was so speedied. The discussion at WP:DRV#Modojo for 3 Nov concludes this speedy was in error: you may like to have a look at the discussion. In general you should not list an article for CSD with half an hour of its creation, and particularly not if it is receiving many edits, even if the article would otherwise qualify. --- Charles Stewart 15:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Right. All editing stopped as soon as you posted your notice. The point is (i) you should not have posted the notice, and (ii) you were probably biting a newbie. --- Charles Stewart 15:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Your comments on AFD Executive Order 12333

I take issue with this comment "Bad faith nom per Geo Swan. --JJay 15:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)" As I said over there, before (or in this case after) you accuse someone of bad faith, why not look at the article, as it existed when the AfD was made. In this case, here is the original text:

Executive Order 12333 extends the powers and responsibilities of US intelligence agencies and directs the leaders of other US federal agencies to co-operate fully with CIA requests for information.

That was it, verbaitm. Is that "encyclopedic"? While we are on the subject, please take a look at the dozens of poorly written articles that Geo Swan has put up, including the ones I have taken the time to fix. I can't keep up with him. Cleanup tags don't work. AfD's don't work. The talk page does not work. For example, please look at the before and after (my edits and his originals) on

• Clive Stafford Smith,
• Gareth Peirce,
• Joshua Colangelo-Bryan (my comments on the summaries are clearly angry and did not help the situation, but it is another example, nonetheless.)
• Abderrahman Ahmad
• Benyam Mohammed but c.f. the current version with my final version, and his original [3]

There's a lot more, but... this should be enough for now. Joaquin Murietta 16:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Please assist with Juma Mohammed Abdul Latif Al Dossary

Would you please take a look at Juma Mohammed Abdul Latif Al Dossary, at both versions and give us your considered advice. I edited the article and Geroge reverted it. I think that his version has clear spelling errors and POV issues. If you run google on the subject's name, Wikipedia] is the first entry, so I think the article should be stronger. Joaquin Murietta 16:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Please assist as a mediator in this dispute. Much appreciated. 209.178.165.187 18:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC) (this is me, Joaquin, I keep getting bounced off, it must be a bug or something.

Got logged back in. Well, George emails and posts to get a posse together, they vote together and generally support each other. I guess that's ok if the articles are well-written and NPOV. See for example, this mass posting, [4]. Then they follow people around and revert. 209.178.165.187 18:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)(Sorry, I keep getting bounced out, whenever I edit now. 209.178.165.187 18:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC) Joaquin 209.178.165.187 18:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

video mr pres

I have deleted The Video Surveillance of Presidents by the Justice Department. In the speedy tag and the talk page you refer to an AfD debate but don't link to it. It is not at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Video Surveillance of Presidents by the Justice Department. So where is it? -- RHaworth 18:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Page Vandal

Why do you keep vandalizing my pages? --Beatyou 03:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyright

I had a conversation with the copyright holder. It can be seen in the Helpdesk-l mailing list archives here, following the "next message" link at the bottom. Generally, don't remove copyvio listings unless you are 100% sure the content was GFDL-licensed. Cheers, [[Sam Korn]] 16:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Ryan Lake

Same goes for Ryan Lake. Do some research before you wantonly tag these things.

Article is now on Afd. --JJay 19:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Dmitri Leybman

I think you're right. I could have sworn I did a cursory search to check the basic facts about the guy when I initally reverted vandalism on him, but it looks like I didn't. Google seems to get only wikimirors and non-related things. Go ahead an AfD. I'll support, unless someone can establish that he is a writer for the Village Voice (though whether that's sufficient notability is also debatable). -R. fiend 23:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Message from User:MarkRyanIversen

The Aetna information I added to thier site was from internal documents as an employee. I am using information we have for press releases and media, so all the info I added to the Aetna site was information that Aetna allows to be published to press, etc. Wikipedia would be considered that.

But the Footballers Wives information, you deleted storylines that were on a fan site that I updated and changed so it wasnt copy and paste and also deleted the following, all of which were not copyrighted: Footballers Wives: Extra Time With the success of Footballers Wives came the spinoff series, Footballers' Wives: Extra Time that began on ITV2 on 26 May 2005. It aired after Series Four of the original and many cast members, including Amber, Harley, Shannon, Bruno, Lucy and Seb, appeared on the series. It ran for 12 episodes.

Foreign Audience Footballers Wives currently airs in Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, Finland and Hungary. It began in the United States in the summer of 2005 on BBC America. It aired Series One & Two and Series Three is scheduled to premiere on 3 February 2006.

DVD Release Series One - Three have been released on DVD in the United Kingdom. Series Four has only been released in Australia. It will be released in the U.K. on 27 March 2006. Series One was also released in the U.S.

• why is stuff I am working on being deleted that Ive worked on. Its a TV show Ive been watching since 2002 and know it inside out. I would like an explanation as to why you are considering stuff as copyrighted when it is not. If the storyline details I write from my head from memory, would it stay on the site? And how come you cant use the logo and screen caps from the show? I see those on TONS of TV sites, both logos and screen caps. And footballers wives: extra time site was fully removed when i only used storyline recap from another website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRyanIversen (talk • contribs) 23:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments on my user page (now moved to talk page). Regarding the Aetna article and articles on Aetna officers, all the information you added was taken verbatim from the Aetna website or Aetna press releases. An example is the company history, which you copied from here [[5]]. The fact that you are an Aetna employee or that Aetna makes this info publicly available does not change that it is copyrighted material. As an Aetna employeee, I am sure you are aware that Aetna prominently displays a copyright notice on their website and other materials. Following Wikipedia policy, unless you can secure a written release from your employer, stating that it is releasing the material into the public domain (per GFDL), it can not be published on Wikipedia and it was therefore removed. Copyvio notices were placed on the Aetna management articles.

Regarding Footballers' Wives, your edits were taken verbatim from [The Custard]. The changes you made to the copied text, were not material and given that it was taken from a commercial site, might have qualified the article for speedy deletion. Instead I reverted your edits. While an episode guide may be a valid addition to the article, Wikipedia does not allow copying one from a commercial provider. If you hold the copyright to material published on custard.tv, please submit it to Wikipedia.

The same is true for Footballers' Wives: Extra Time. The description and episode guides were taken again from [[6]]. As the majority of the article was a copyright violation, a copyvio notice was placed on the article.

As many of your edits have been taken from commercial sites, they have been reverted. You ask the question if "I write from my head from memory, would it stay on the site" . Yes, subject to future edits. This is what wikipedia is all about.

I'm sure you have many great contributions to make to Wikipedia. Just brush up on wikipedia policies and avoid the copyright violations and you won't have any issues with me or anyone else (although I do have comments regarding your Kent School District edits).

Best wishes. P.S. as you make a habit of clearing edits to your talk page, a copy of this will be put on my talk page. --JJay 01:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

User talk:MarkRyanIversen

I'll learn to not do that and when doing storyline issues, to do so from memory (as it is not hard for me to do that). The Aetna one. I am new to it all so it was fun to actually add something. So I will admit to my errors and correct them for future entries.

I resubmitted info on FW:Extra Time and FW that was not copyrighted. The only thing I go from another site that would still be on there would be the premiere date. I know of the year but did need reference to the exact premiere date of the series.

Regarding Kent School District site. I am big on legal issues with various thing and that does hold a close tie to myself. The one regarding myself, that is from my legal files, in court/public record. I was going to delete some and add responses from the other side so it wasn't a one-way issue. I am not against sharing views on both ends. The other legal issues were ones I've had on Word Documents that I assume were from news sites (Ive had them for a while so the exact source I would not know). Feel free to remove any of that. I wanted a fair share of views on a school district and showing "bad" issues to show what the past has been for them. Again, its been less than a week (I believe it is) that Ive discovered Wikipedia and I will be careful in what I do. Please let me know your opinions on this. Again, my appologies. Thank you. Mark

Mark concerning the storylines, its ok to draw on stuff from websites, just don't take it word for word. Rewrite it so it doesn't sound like advertising copy and then cite the source as a link (and try to use mainstream sources).

With the Kent School District, I thought the legal stuff was a good addition but maybe a bit too long. If it can be condensed it would be more effective. Also links to sources or opposing viewpoints are obviously a plus.

Anyway I didn't mean to come down on you and I realize you didn't know the policy on copyvios (which are one of my pet peeves). I've made plenty of mistakes too. Wikipedia can be complicated but its fun and I know you'll enjoy contributing. Welcome aboard. --JJay 01:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Text from www.wga.hu

Hello Cryptic. What's the policy on use of material from www.wga.hu. I've noticed that numerous verbatim articles and images are being submitted from this site. They state their policy as follows:

The Web Gallery of Art is copyrighted as a database. Images and documents downloaded from this database can only be used for educational and personal purposes. Distribution of the images in any form is prohibited without the authorization of their legal owner.[[7]]

Does Wikipedia have blanket approval for using this material? Also, www.wga.hu provides extensive references for their content, which they themselves may or may not have permission to use. See sources [[8]]. At the very least, shouldn't Wikipedia's use of this content be clearly acknowledged on article talk pages. --JJay 19:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

We don't have blanket approval (at least, not to my knowledge). I sent a standard confirmation of permission email to the contact address on the website mentioning only the text of the articles Madonna with Sts John the Baptist and Donatus (Verrocchio), Saint Madeleine (Caravaggio), The Baptism of Christ (Verrocchio), and Narcissus (Caravaggio), and received a reply confirming permission to use these under the GFDL. (The images themselves in these articles are in the public domain.) If someone is claiming that he has blanket approval to use all material on their site under the GFDL, this needs to be confirmed again.

For those four articles (which are the only ones I've looked at), the article talk pages do acknowledge the web site - see {{confirmation}} and its talk page.

If you're referring to http://www.wga.hu/sources.html (which is what the "sources" link on all of wga.hu's pages go to), it's a list of references that they consulted to create the text on their pages. Their sources don't have a copyright interest in the text wga created and granted to us, anymore than the sources listed in the ==References== sections of our articles do. (Of course, if they copied the material from elsewhere, their permission grant is meaningless and we can't use the material. There's no reason to think that, though; when googling for the text in the articles, I did find it on a few other sites, but it looked very much to me that wga was the original source.) —Cryptic (talk) 19:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your speedy response. I've reviewed the new pages submitted by Attilios so far this month. The following are all copyvios from www.wga.hu without any reference on the article talk pages:

...

There are probably many more if I look at edits from Attilios in October or earlier. Unless www.wga.hu has released their database under GFDL, I think we need to state clearly where we are getting our material (particularly as none of the articles have links or sources). Could you let me know how to proceed? I don't really want to tag all this as copyvios, but I will without a clear direction on policy. --JJay 01:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm. The exact wording I got back (from a Dr. Emil Kren) was "Hereby I confirm that permission was granted to use some pages of the Web Gallery of Art in Wikipedia". Sixty-seven (or more!) pages does seem excessive for "some". The logical thing to do would be to email wga.hu, explain the situation, and ask them about it, especially since their usual license isn't compatible with the GFDL. If they again confirm permission, either for the pages you listed or their site as a whole, forward a copy of the reply to "permissions at wikimedia dot org".

You're certainly right about the lack of acknowledgement being a problem. The source of this material should be clearly stated in the edit summary as it's added and on the talk page, both to satisfy the GFDL and to lessen the chance that someone else stumbles on the pages, checks google, and tags them as copyvios. —Cryptic (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Maybe I proceded it with too much enthusiasm. I asked www.wga.hu if could use their pages, and they simply replied I could. I didn't know the exact way to specify in the WIkipedia article that the used text was their. Therefore, what can I do? Now ALL these articles must be rejected? I have to notify www.wga.hu ALL the times I add text from their database? Please notice I never act in a fraudulent way, since in my opinion I DID receive permission to use the text.Attilios.

Thanks for your response. Enthusiasm is good and I'm not accusing you of fraud or anything like that. I am contacting www.wga.hu to secure GFDL permission for all the articles submitted as well as future content. They may very well grant permission for this. In that case, the main thing that needs to be done is to acknowledge the permission on the article talk pages. If they refuse permission, though, then I'm afraid that the copyright material would have to be removed from the articles. --JJay 19:43, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

List of Jewish Fellows in Royal Society

You voted "strong keep" because you suspected bad faith on that vote. I think you are mistaken - according to wikipedia a list can be immediately revoted for deletion if there was a no "consensus" - which there was in the last case. Clearly, with so many DELETE votes now, the call for revote was a good call. Please reconsider your vote for "stong keep" as it will probably slow down the process for the deletion of this - as it may create another "no consensus" - thank you for reading. 65.9.143.84 20:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Since you have no edits to your credit I don’t know who you are or where you really stand on this issue. I will say this: there is a difference between what Wikipedia policy allows and the best course of action. My reading of the last debate for List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society [[9]](in which I took no stand) was that the outcome could have been Keep given signs of sock puppet activity in the voting. The admin called it No Consensus. I see no imperative for the rapid renom- and you provide no arguments against the list- therefore I will not reconsider my vote. --JJay 21:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

CFD and LGBT criminals

Hi - Appearances notwithstanding, I didn't actually mean to single you out in my comment. I apologize if you took this as a personal comment. By and large, I really don't care for any of the "intersection" categories. I'm not sure what to do about this (it's irked me for quite some time), but in this specific instance there seems to be a claim that this category carries an inherent anti-LGBT POV. It might - but, it might not as well. In any event, I thought a personal message about this might be warranted. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Rick, thanks for the note. I didn't take any offense whatsoever. If my response was heated, it wasn't meant that way. Its strange how, um, spirited those discussions can get. I admit I'm surprised by all the support on the Keep Side, though, and can't see the logic or intent of the category. It would seem logical to me to group serial killers together, gay, straight, black, white, etc.

I do understand your concerns though. The category, if kept, will be a POV magnet from all sides. It will be used by pro-gay and anti-gay editors to slander both gays and non-gays. Some will want to pack the category to show that gays are involved in lots of crimes. Some will use it to brand anyone they don't like. Anyone with the most tenuous LGBT connection will be thrown in. People convicted of sodomy will be added, such as Oscar Wilde. Others will want to include people out of a sense of pride (LGBT are normal, they therefore commit crimes like anyone else). Crimes involving homosexual victims might qualify. Should Oscar Wilde be in the same category as a female prostitue who may have suffered LGBT sexual abuse as a child, and then 30-years later killed a series of male clients? When I pointed out a lot of immediate problems with the category, the response is always let's keep it, because those problems will be immediately addressed and won't reappear. In my view, these types of problems reflect an inherently flawed category/list, they can't be fixed and will be a constant problem.

In any case, I'm not trying to get you to change your vote. Just throwing out some ideas, as usual. Take care --JJay 09:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

new category created

User talk:67.171.237.88 created Category:LGBT murderers this morning, you may want to cfd it or watch it so you know when its been cfded. Arniep 16:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. It amazes me that people pull these kind of stunts while the cfd is still going on. I won't be nominating it- have no stomach for starting another debate at this time- but will watch it. -- JJay 17:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Jewish votes

Hi, the sock puppet you spotted, the nominator of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_18#List_of_Jewish_jurists (your comment:Strong Keep. Changing my vote. Don't like anon noms here + 2nd anom vote, both out of Atlanta.-- JJay 05:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)) is back at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_26#List_of_Jewish_American_scientists Thanks Arniep 01:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see my comment at: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_26#List_of_Jewish_Americans. Thanks Arniep 02:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

My Hero

Is you. That was a great response to IZ or whatever his name is on the deletion page for the Jewish categories. I too am sick of the constant nominations and I have been a very strong supporter of categories for every single religious and ethnic group (I was behind Spanish-Americans and Portuguese-Americans, among others). Way to go and it's pretty clear, based on the votes, that these categories aren't getting deleted. I'm just worried that we are now going to get every single Jewish category nominated separately, in which case I am pretty sure that I am just going to remove the AFD on grouds of Extreme Annoyance and the heck with the consequences.Vulturell 07:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought it might piss people off but felt I needed to say it. It did reflect some real anger and disgust. I think the situation has become irrational and the Afd process has broken down. I also don't have time to consider all these lists every day. The only rational solution is to vote Strong Keep across the board until the dust settles. Even if some are repetitive, who does it hurt if they stay? Why the immediate renoms, sock puppets, etc? Right now a whole bunch of AFds are being closed out by a non-admin with a null and void outcome. What the hell does that mean? -- JJay 07:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll explain that situation. Some user (sock puppet?) nominated every single sublist of "Jewish Americans" i.e. "List Of Jewish American Show Business Figures" but didn't nominate "List Of Jewish Americans" itself (that list is a huge list with all the subcategories included). I suggested, not unreasonably, that instead of deleting all these smaller, separate lists, we should delete the content from the main "List Of Jewish Americans" and put in links to the separate sub-lists (which if you add them all up have basically the same content as the main list), thus making it easier to navigate the lists. Mr. Sock Puppet Man agreed and removed his AFD's (the null and void) as soon as I nominated the main "List Of Jewish Americans" for an overhaul, which I think it will get. Vulturell 08:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if its possible for you guys to do this. I reverted one, and other Afds will be reverted also. Once the process starts, it usually continues. Why is a new user so motivated to nom numerous religion lists? Why doesn't he do some edits first? That strikes me as suspicious and I now doubt everyone's good faith. For the time being, I will maintain my policy and votes across the board. The Jewish subcats will be renomed anyway. That I'm sure of. Anyway, I'll check back later in the day. -- JJay 08:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think people like the idea of having "List Of Jewish Americans" be a link to smaller lists - it really helps navigation and space. It's what he have in List of Jews right now. I am also voting across the board and I think you're right about Mr. Sock Puppet Man. If the Jewish cats are re-nominated without the same user nominating some non-Jewish cats first, then I am actually going to remove the AFD on the grounds that I told you (Extreme Annoyance). If am blocked because of this (could be) than I'll just create a new account, "Vulturell's Sock Puppet".Vulturell 08:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see my comments at User_talk:OwenX#User:StabRule. Arniep 16:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The assault on the List of sexual slang

Two users in particular The Literate Engineer & Voice of All(MTG) have apparently made it their duty to get rid of the list and they have been using underhanded tactics in an attempt to do so in any way they can.

But word is getting out, and supporters of the list are starting to rally against them and protect the list (via rerverting vandalism, countering their tactics, etc.).

The results of the 18 October AfD:

• Keep & clean = 3
• Keep, no clean = 11
• Delete = 2

The anonymous clean-up notice

The following anonymous clean-up notice was posted to the list on November 1st:

23:44, 1 November 2005 68.17.227.41

The notice was placed without group consensus, and there was no edit comment. Pretty sneaky.

This was the user's only edit. Nothing before or after. A sock-puppet.

The results of the 10 November Afd

• Keep & clean up =3 votes
• Keep, with no mention of clean up =7 votes
• Delete = 4 votes (including the nomination)

That's 10 votes to keep, out of which 3 voted to clean up. Seven out of ten clearly voiced their desire to retain the list without deleting its entries.

Dishonest report of Afd results

Voice of All(MTG) reported the results as " ", and he and The Literate Engineer used that as the basis to erase the content of the list, which they did in successive edits.

Non-consensual list move

During the 10 November AfD discussion, Voice of All(MTG) moved the list to the new article name sexual slang, citing the introduction at the top of the list as the basis for the move ("it is more than a list"). Several users then used the article title as an argument against including any list entries.

When an article is moved, the change history is moved with it, and a redirect is placed under the original article's title. If the redirect is edited, then the article cannot be moved back. That is exactly what has happened to the list. See Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages for more information.

The current situation

The change history of the list is currently stranded as the change history of Sexual slang.

The content of the list itself has been restored to List of sexual slang, where it was originally. This preserves the spirit of the results of the two AfD discussions mentioned above.

To summarize:

1. On Oct 18 the list was nominated for AfD (article for deletion), but this attempt to delete failed, and the vote was overwhelmingly to Keep.
2. An anonymous sock-puppet placed a clean-up notice on the list. It has been used as a justification to delete entries.
3. On Nov 10, The Literate Engineer made an AfD attempt against the list and it failed too.
4. Then Voice of All(MTG) underhandedly moved the list to the non-list name sexual slang, while the AfD was still underway.
5. Voice of All(MTG)reported false results for the 10 November AfD vote, and he and The Literate Engineer edited out the entire list.
6. I posted a rebuttal to the above antics on the talk page for sexual slang, and reverted the sexual slang article to the November 15 version in the article's change history (the complete list). My username ("Bend over") was banned as inappropriate or offensive.
7. Some editors stated that an article is not the place for a list, and used that as a justification to keep list entries.
8. So I replaced the redirect at List of sexual slang with the actual content of the entire list. Unfortunately, the change history for the list is still part of the change history for the article sexual slang.
9. An attempt is being made to protect the list against vandalism at its original location: List of sexual slang.

Remember, the three reversion limit does not apply when reverting vandalism. Only if enough concerned users participate will this be successful.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Red Rover 21:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Backup needed

JJay can you have a look at the discussion here User_talk:OwenX#User:StabRule. User:StabRule has now placed a third vote on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish jurists and Owenx for some reason is refusing to even warn the user, I don't understand whats going on here. Arniep 22:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar for color transposition

I hearby award you these non-yellow tennis-balls of friendship.

And for your clothing preference: http://www.tenniscompany.com/images/Clothing_Volkl_BlackShorts.JPG

Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey thanks. Not sure if those balls would actually fit in the shorts, but they certainly add color to my drab talk page. At least some people still have a sense of humour here. We need more of that in life. -- JJay 19:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Um?

What in the world are you referring to? Do you really expect me to know what you're talking about? john k 00:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at it now, I have no idea how the revert came about. I was not attempting to revert at all, simply to add a period. I suppose I must have been looking at an old version of the article, or something. At any rate, it was an accident, and I would appreciate it if you didn't make accusations against me, without any specifics, and then refuse to even explain what you mean. john k 04:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

If you had simply said what you were referring to, I would not have responded with annoyance. As it was, I was standing accused of something which I had no memory of doing. Obviously, I was somewhat careless in accidentally reverting. If you had cited the change and asked me why I reverted in your initial comment, I would have quickly seen that I made a mistake, and apologized. As it stands, I'm not going to apologize for anything, because you've been a dick about the whole thing. john k 05:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I may have been a bit quick off the handle here. I apologize for being rude, and I shouldn't have called you a dick. That said, your original comment was one about what was obviously an inadvertent reverting mistake - even if the revert itself had been purposeful, it can be presumed that I wasn't trying to change usage back to "oppresicly." As such, it was, from the beginning, quite likely that I would not be able to gather what you were talking about from your initial comment. This would have been easily solved by you simply saying what you were talking about. I (perhaps rather rudely) responded, indicating that, indeed, I did not know what you were talking about. In your second comment, you continued to refuse to indicate what you were talking about, forcing me to go back through the contributions list and figure out what was going on. Once again, all that would have been necessary to prevent this entire unfortunate exchange would have been if you had simply indicated the article you were referring to in your first comment to me. Most of the unpleasantness could have been prevented if you had simply linked me after my first comment. Basically, people do a lot of stuff on wikipedia. If you provide a completely out of context statement on a talk page, you ought not be surprised that the person you are speaking to does not know what you are referring to. If that out of context statement is a criticism, you ought not be surprised that the person responds somewhat hostilely. And if you continue to act as though they should automatically know what you're talking about, after they've indicated that they don't, you ought not be surprised that they react even more hostilely. This is not to defend my conduct in this exchange - I have clearly not handled this very well - but just to say that my conduct does not arise out of natural irascibility, but as a fairly predictable result of the way you have dealt with this issue. john k 06:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

RFC on User:Antidote

Hi, you may be interested in this: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote. I would appreciate if you could endorse the dispute at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote#Users_certifying_the_basis_for_this_dispute Thanks, Arniep 15:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, if you have time I'd appreciate your looking at this, the user is the same as StabRule (aka HotelRoom + EscapeArtistsNeverDie). They voted multiple times mainly on Jewish lists, most recently on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish inventors. Thanks Arniep 14:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

details of their multi-voting: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/Voting, contributions Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/Contribution_table, comments Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/User_comments. Arniep 14:12, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

HB

I acknowledge that you may be right as for the Hilton Becker thing: I'm a little preoccupied today, and may not have given the merits of the article proper consideration relative to its flaws.

Once I'm finished with my today's (paying) project, I'll go over the relevant pages more carefully and perhaps undelete the page. Or perhaps I'll leave it deleted, but either way I'll let you know. Okay? DS 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Stubs

I'm making them - see Stanford Ovshinsky - so if you have time go ahead and help me out. Antidote 23:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's very impresive. Amazing what an Rfc can do in the way of changes. I'll make some stubs- but I still think you should withdraw your nom on the list, since it's going to be much harder to copy from it once its deleted. -- JJay 23:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm doing this in order to find a consensus with you. If it were done the correct way then all of the red names would just be moved to their corresponding country lists (many of them already exist there anyway) and these extra lists would be deleted (that way Jews can be treated like any other ethnicity on Wikipedia). You just don't see to like to compromise. Antidote 22:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Jewish inventors

It's pretty funny that Antidote recently made Category:Slovak inventors and Category:Serbian inventors under an anon ip and another of his interestingly named accounts User:EscapeArtistsNeverDie, and just said "one does not wish to start a revolution of ethnic battling on wikipedia with List of German inventors, List of Chinese inventors, and List of Native Inuit Eskimo inventors". LOL Arniep 20:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Lots of what he says seems funny or absurd. While I have got him to start making stubs, he wouldn't be making the stubs without the lists, all of which he wants to delete or "reform". He also seems to enjoy ethnic battles. -- JJay 20:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Its not so funny that he wants to remove Jewish people from all the European country lists though... please sign or comment on his rfc Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antidote. Arniep 20:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• The problem with the rfc, is that I haven't had time to review the mass of materials there. I'm also not a huge fan of bureaucracy and don't know anything about the rfc process. I'll try to fous on that later tonight. -- JJay 21:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Appreciate if you put these comments on my talk page so I can comment on them, or else you'll all be left in the dark and assuming what you wish to assume. Thanks. Antidote 21:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• You seem to be doing fine commenting here, so no need to put comments on your talk page. Of course, feel free to copy anything from this page that you think you might need. -- JJay 00:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

www.wga.hu

So how far did it get? Can those articles stay? I would like to end it once and for all. Renata3 22:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Hi, can you fill me in on where you fit in this. I don't remember speaking to you about the WGA problem. -- JJay 22:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Nope, you did not speak with me. You spoke with Cryptic and with Attilios. I discovered one article yesterday and I got interested. And now I want to know if it got settled or just got forgot. Just looking if I can help. :) Renata3 22:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Ok, I'll spell out the situation as best as I can. We have written permission to use "some" of the WGA material. Because Attilios has submitted a substantial amount of articles taken from WGA, I wrote to WGA to ask for clarification. My mails were repetedly bounced, but I have emailed Dr. Krenz twice now without response. I was too busy with work to follow up, but I think a third mail to the WGA would be in order, before we decide whether to keep or copyvio the WGA articles. Obviously, if they are kept, credit has to be shown, which is a big job in itself, particularly as there are more than 63 articles probably well over 100. -- JJay 22:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Is the original permission text available? In any case those articles need clean up. Renata3 22:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

We're all in it together

I'd just like to say 'thanks' for defending List of fictional Elvis impersonators. I am the creator (something I'm not pointing out on the VfD page), but I am by no means the only contributor. I admit it's not something of striking importance, but it's good to know there are other people who consider it worth keeping. -Litefantastic 00:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Well I voted the way I thought best. Everyone has their own definition of what is valuable. If the encyclopedia was based strictly on what I think is meaningful, it would be very small and probably very boring. I therefore try to support things if I think others might find it useful. But as I stated, what annoys me a great deal is the lack of consideration to other editors shown by using AfD as a weapon. -- JJay 00:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

FROM GHava

Please do not delete us. There are tons of Ghava™ collaborators listed on Wikipedia that discuss projects in which Ghava™ has been involved in creatively. We are in the process of adding more information discussing the art exhibitions GHava™ has been involved with domestically as well as internationally.

On a separate note, The Designers Republic are listed here. Why is GH avisualagency™ being marked for deletion. GHava™ is the same type of collective and have collaborated with many of the same people. This is not making any logical sense.--lerner

• Looks like the situation may be out of my hands now. Nothing seems to make any logical sense anymore. Thanks for your message. -- JJay 01:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your reply and honest response. Seeing as how you feel like the situation is out of your hands would you please mind not voting either way by retracting your delete vote in the discussion of the topic? I would sincerely appreciate it. --lerner

Barry Wood

I have created an article about the England cricketer called Barry Wood (cricketer). If the current article in the namespace is deleted as seems likely, I would like to move the article about the cricketer into the namespace. Most of the What Links Here for Barry Wood are for the cricketer. Capitalistroadster 09:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

consumerpedia deletion

Hi JJay,

You voted keep on Consumerpedia. I have lodged a comment on that page disagreeing, with a bit of new information. Please reconsider your vote. Thanks!

DanKeshet 22:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Voila. -- JJay 22:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! DanKeshet 22:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

List of White Americans

I know we've never seen eye to eye, but they're trying to delete this article. Deleting it and keeping NA and Black American lists is just racist IMHO.Gateman1997 00:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• I more or less agree with you. But, what can I do? I'm not an admin an there is a speedy on the article. Even if it went through AfD, the list would probably or almost definitely get deleted, based on the previous vote. -- JJay 00:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  • You could delete the speedy. I'd do it myself but it's against policy since I started the article.Gateman1997 01:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Nah...I'll leave that for the admins to decide. The list may qualify as a speedy. You also should know that I am more interested in process and policy than content (as demonstrated by my recent voting on the Indian List- my original vote had been delete). There is a way that you could get around this in the future I think. Do a sourced list of self-proclaimed caucasians. -- JJay 01:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris streets-list

Hi, I think it would be a pity to have this disappear but it has to be reduced in size to meet wiki standards. The easiest would be to turn it into a top level page pointing to 26 alphabetical linked pages. But I think added value would be got by breaking it down by arrondissement - you ask how would this make it smaller and it's true that some streets would duplicate over of the 20 arrondissement but, even still, each of the 20 articles would be close to the recommended 30K or so. The two solutions are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. Dlyons493 Talk 11:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

That all sounds good to me. How do we go about it? -- JJay 17:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I've added List of streets in Paris, France in alphabetical order into Portal:Paris. It's only got A and B as proof-of-concept but will be easy to do the others in the same way. I'm sure there must be more elegant ways but feel the best thing is to save the data first (I've made a local copy of all the names and can do the other letters quickly). What do you think - if you've a better way let me know or just go ahead and do it. Dlyons493 Talk 21:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• This is really good. If there is a better way, I don't see it now. In any case, it could always be changed later. The important thing is to hold onto the data for the time being. -- JJay 00:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• • More by way of experiment than anything else I've created Rue Zadkine. Comments appreciated. Dlyons493 Talk 02:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

IATCE

I mentioned it because that particular construction is rather confusing. Expand is obviously a keep-style comment, but you didn't actually say "and delete unless expanded", you just offered delete as another, opposing, option. It would have been clearer had you expanded the article (or phrased differently). On the broader point, I personally think those who say an article should be expanded should do some of the legwork they are mandating. That's just a personal opinion, though. -Splash^talk 01:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Aileen Passloff

Thanks for switching to the correct template! Bjelleklang - talk 06:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. -- JJay 06:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

hi

i read your comment on the GH avisualagency AfD page and saw that you have extensive experience on here. i am trying to contribute to the GH article but everyone on the discussion page keeps giving me the wrong advice. most insisted that i have to prove notability, then they said that it was wrong to list articles about the collective. i don't know who to believe as they all keep leading me astray. if you could please offer me any advice on how to make the article better or make any adjustments yourself i would sincerely appreciate it. even if it does get deleted, at least i will have known that i tried my best to make it a better article. thanks so much.

• for editing reference, these lead to some other wikipedia articles i feel are similar: art collective, artist collective, List of graphic designers

Inspectorpanther 16:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Via-à-vis The Three Sounds

Cheers! --Ezeu 14:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Gateman1997

Hi JJay. The guy is obviously getting bothered by your replying to a bunch of his votes on AfD, so see if you can refrain doing it, as things are better when things are mellow. Thanks! Proto t c 15:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your great research

Wondering what you think of exploding animal now? CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Americas Funniest Home Videos/Opening Credits

Hi, how do you go about getting an undeletion vote? The above article was deleted with a 10 Keep/Merge to 12 Delete vote, which sure as hell aint the two thirds majority supposedly needed! Jcuk 07:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You can put in a request at Wikipedia:Votes_for_Undeletion, but I'm not sure how far you will get, as the article was apparently previously deleted and thus speediable. -- JJay 08:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

ok, cheers Jcuk 17:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Jalali calendar

Hmm... so what's the difference in correct usage between copyvio and db-copyvio? Melchoir 08:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Db-copyvio is only supposed to be used for stuff that's taken from commercial content providers, meaning things like newspapers, magazines, books, etc. For everything else, you should use the regular copyvio tag and place a notice on the copyvio page, because it allows editors one week to rewrite the material on a temp page and/or secure permission to use the content. -- JJay 08:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I see. Thanks! Melchoir 08:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Teriyaki Boyz

OK, so I mistagged something a few minutes after entry. I err on the side of dropping an SD tag on most of the questionable Newpage stuff I find. If anything, this appears to be my third mistagged speedy delete out of 471 speedies (inclusive of those three), so overall it's not so bad. Heck, that's better than the US Army right now. It sounded like a stack of nonsense to begin with, and I admit I should've googled it, but I went to Allmusic first and there was no entry for them. That said, I don't think that the album itself needs an entry. Overall, the group doesn't meet WP:MUSIC either, so I'm going to keep an eyeball on it for a little while.  RasputinAXP  _{talk contribs} 14:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy to engage you in debate

1. The AfD discussion was not closed at the point I posted to it, nor was it closed (according to my browser) when I exited it. I assume, this having happened before, that there is some lag time between when an article is closed and when that closure is effective. Whatever the case, I know what I am doing, and at the time I posted my comment, the AfD was still open for comment. I feel no need to apologise for technical issues.

Edit made 7 hours post close- [10]

As I say, I feel no need to apologise for technical issues.

2. I have no idea whether you are just now completing junior high (or whatever you call it where you live) or if you have a Master's degree. I did not venture a guess on that in my post. I can speak only for my experience, not for yours. My remarks concerning your school experience are entirely relevant. Those people who remain connected with their schools have an entirely different perception of the importance of that school than those who do not. Were I to learn that you have not been in touch with your high school since the day you walked out the door, I wouldn't touch your perception as far as I could hurl it. On the other hand, if you have continued to maintain touch with staff and former students, or if you have a child who is attending this school, I would be more than willing to give credence to your account (while still subjecting it to the necessary requirements of noteworthiness).If you are indeed "surrounded by other snickering acne-covered juveniles, many of whom will go on to become distinguished alumni, notable enough to warrant mention on a wikipedia page", you may wish to reconsider an article when in fact these juveniles are actually "distinguished". Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

My guess is you haven't seen the inside of a school since you finished high school [11]

Otherwise, my comments stand.

3. My perspective is well outside the mainstream? Nice try. While school debates are regularly closed with no consensus, it is extremely rare that they are closed with consensus. Heretical? You've only been here a few weeks. I will allow you the right to be wet behind the ears.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashland High School (Ohio), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Quartz Hill High School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wilmington Friends School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stuarts Draft High School, etc.

"Etc" being shorthand for "I can't find any more". This is four out of how many dozen, over what period of time?

4. I beg mercy for the inability to read your mind. "...while I was adding information..." is not exactly a good reason for me to be shouting hurrahs for the completeness of this article. Moreover, your implicit criticism of my inability to type is petty at least.

If you can find me a notable high school beside which I may be properly recondite, fine. I have no issue with articles on schools which are properly notable, and that notability may occur for several reasons. I will not, however, accept, as you appear to, that a school is notable merely because there are students in the building. This is an encyclopedia, not a yellow pages. We require that individuals, bands, businesses, and web sites show some degree of worthiness for inclusion in Wikipedia. In my judgement, if a school has not been deemed worthy of inclusion in some non-school documentation, then it is not worthy of inclusion here. I trust you understand my position now. Please enlighten me on yours. Denni ☯ 01:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

This is also not a debate society. I have been more than gracious to respond to your numerous questions when directed at me. Reread my comments around the site if you really require further details. I will now concede on all points, you may consider that your great knowledge and experience has resulted in another crushing victory. Good luck in your future endeavors-- JJay 01:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for conceding on all points, and recognizing that you have nothing of value to contribute to these arguments. (just kidding. The most important trait of an editor, IMHO, is that s/he appreciates the importance of collaboration with all other editors= in making Wikipedia the best possible source of information. If that is you, I propose we agree to disagree on the issue of schools and work as colleages in other areas.) Denni ☯ 02:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting to keep almost everything

I had noticed you regularly vote to keep almost every article on WP:VFD, especially lists of X. I can assure you that to keep open ended and popular enough list is very hard and unpleasant experience. Maybe if you try to do it yourselves you may change your opinion.

It is quite common for novices to forget encyclopedia is not repository of everything. The task of VFD should be to give more experienced people tool to stick with WP rules and aims. Pavel Vozenilek 03:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comments. Please point me to policy that states Keep is not a valid vote on VfD. -- JJay 03:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say Keep votes aren't valid. I just pointed to need to keep with rules from WP:NOT (section Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). This article doesn't and cannot list all cases but it gives enough of hints what is reasonable encyclopedic topic. Thanks for understanding. Pavel Vozenilek 04:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. You did helpfully point out that I am a "novice". If there is a minimum edit count required for voting please state the figure, so I can try to boost my count from the few thousand at present. However, if there is no rule in this respect, I intend to keep participating and voting keep as I see fit based on existing wikipedia rules guidelines. This will be the case for lists, which are extremely useful and appealing and have always existed in encyclopedias. The possibilities for nurturing, growing and developing lists are endless and one of the true joys and delights of this project. I would also suggest you ponder the statement that wikipedia is not paper. -- JJay 04:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You should not feel this term as derogatory, it simply means that someone is on Wikipedia for short time and may not be fully familiar with its internal processes, trends, abilities and limitations. As for thousands of edits - this number doesn't count that much and vast majority of the edits comes from AfD voting, not from articles creation and maintenance.

I really recommend you to get involved in maintenance of articles about popular topics. This is much unthankful work, practically hopeless under current state of WP, yet much needed. I did so for a year until I got burnt out. Now I concentrate on Czech related topic (which have minimal attention of vandals), and only sometimes deal with administrative parts. Pavel Vozenilek 05:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually you are quite wrong about my edit count. Most of my edits come from maintenance as shown here [12], which is the list of roughly 800 articles tagged for speedy deletion. However I may vote on VfD, my edits have led to the removal of far more articles than have been kept. -- JJay 11:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for being one of the few people who found us interesting enough to keep in the discussion about deleting S23 Wiki. Mutante23 08:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How to win friends and influence people

Mr/Ms JJay thank you for your almost sole vote to keep my article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Promises of troop withdrawal by American presidents. FYI, I have given up on the article, attempted to mend fences with the perp who started this, and now will include the info in Election promise.

I also really liked your wit in the above post when the guy accused you of being a novice because you almost always vote to keep an article. Thank you sir/ma'am.Travb 12:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. I think the topic of your article could be developed nicely, presenting both sides of the issue. However, you were not given a fair shake, or enough time to flesh out the article. It also amazes me that people will vote to keep junk like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Presidential gaffes, but not a potentially serious discussion of presidential issues.

Thanks for the comments regarding my wit. In fact, the guy above is wrong, because I have voted far more frequently overall to delete articles. That never engendered any comment from anyone. It is only when voting keep that you apparently break some unwritten rule and cause a serious breach of etiquette among the old wikipedia boys. -- JJay 12:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Just letting you know that I read what you wrote, and that the information is now at Election promise, I hope this is the last I ever hear of the user. Good luck. Travb 14:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Probably better if you two avoid each other- that is if you ever figure out who he was. I checked out election promise, interesting topic if it can stay balanced. Has the potential to become huge also. -- JJay 01:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Forward-looking statement

I posted my Google search results to the talk page. User:Dzonatas created this page and three templates last night as a result of a discussion about copyediting Joan of Arc.

He asserts that the United States Securities and Exchange Act of 1934 is a usage guideline for medieval history articles. "Forward-looking statement" is not a linguistics term. To toss this together with "gerund" and assert it has anything to do with centuries-old subjects is WP:Complete Bollocks. The term has a very narrow technical application in United States financial law. Either this editor is very confused or it's a deliberate attempt to snow people. Durova 18:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

What's this? You advise me to submit this for regular deletion and then accuse me of bad faith for following your advice. Durova 19:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Please study the substance of my nomination and assume good faith. Your presumption of a dispute bias appears to have colored your response. Durova 20:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

1. As a narrow technical term, the article is a dictdef.
2. The article creator makes fictitious claims in order to expand it beyond a dictdef.
3. If cleaned up for accuracy, we are left with a dictdef - at best a transwiki to Wikibooks.

I request that you strike the accusation of bad faith from your vote. The nomination meets Wikipedia guidelines. Durova 20:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Pilgrim State Hospital

Just wanted to say awesome job on the copyedit and merging! Nice work. Tom Foolery 00:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Romaia's potential

I understand your position (I've seen it e.g., at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TEACCH) and respect you vote. I just want to let you know that I knew what I was doing when I was nominating this page. I could have explained you in more detail, but at the moment it will be just waste of our time. Cheers, mikka (t) 03:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of anti-abortion people

Thanks for helping out on that article. The supporters to keep it really appreciate the feedback, especially me. However, it has, unfortunately been deleted. One of the Wikipedians' rationale for deleting it was the paper thing, and 'that it justifies POV?' Well, as I previously stated, the article could've been edited to conform to NPOV. But you can't stop a deletionist any way you try in most cases. I supposes deletionism is predominant among members of Wikipedia, and thus it would be very difficult to keep any article, even with diligence. I just don't seem do understand it in most cases. But anyway, thank you for all the feedback you offered us Inclusionists, and others against deleting that informative article. Эйрон Кинни 04:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lloyd Robinson

On December 21, you voted on this AfD, stating "Weak keep and cleanup. May be notable as president of the Federation. Need some Australian input."

At the moment, it's 4-2 including your vote, so it's at risk of being a no-consensus keep. Every Australian to vote has voted delete, as he's not notable here. More importantly, however, the article isn't in any way verifiable, and it concerns me that such an article might be kept. Would you consider changing your vote? Ambi 09:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your message. I have been able to confirm some of the info in this, but it looks like it will be deleted anyway. -- JJay 05:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

James Crabtree AFD

Please reconsider your vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Crabtree. I believe the subject of the article being AFDed is not the same person as the Guardian author. His blog seems even less than non-notable, and the article completely vanity. Please see the updates I've posted at the AFD. Thanks. Blackcats 22:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 Afd

Well, I now know personally that you do vote to delete articles, Have you considered the merge option? I have added some comments to the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 page which may help change your mind.Travb 01:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the message. I at first voted keep on this, but then some of the comments got under my skin, hence the change to delete. Based on the votes at this point, the keeps are well ahead so I don't see any point in changing my vote- if it was closer I would switch to abstain. -- JJay 01:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your candor. You probably are talking about "USA is the most hated country in the world" wikipedian, unfortunatly this user begs the question: "if these are my friends, who are my enemies?" I am sorry he got under your skin, he actually got under my skin too. Can I ask you a question. Is it real fair to judge an article for deletion based on a bad experience with another wikipedian? People wanted to delete secret plan because of my actions: "Delete per nom, Travb's attitude"[13] not because of the content of my article. I just feel this is not fair.

I think every vote counts in this argument. Every vote for "keep" is another vote toward a clear consensus. Wikipedians have already elected to delete this article, and it survived. It has been attacked every week since its inception, by people who completly want to delete this rich part of American history from wikipedia. I don't think wiki articles should be held captive indefinatly, under the threat of delete, by such revisionist history wikipedians. Your vote is important. Travb 02:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll give it some more thought. My mind is just not made up at present. Even with a keep though, someone could still renom. -- JJay 02:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks JJay all I ask is you think about it.Travb 02:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

CFD & Power Rangers

Nobody ever said look was a criteria for deletion. We were merely poking fun. We are allowed to have fun, aren't we? Suche4LancerFile:Pennsylvania state flag.png 07:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thou shalt not give Hitler posthumous victories.

Thank you for your comment. Regards, Durova 17:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

South African College

Hey there, thanks for merging the headmaster thing... I wasn't sure what to do there, but the headmaster part I thought would look weird because I just realised I don't have the full list of headmasters from both the high school and junior school and I thought it might look rather dumb... I'll get the full list for the past 176 years and then post it... --KryptonZone 12:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The full list would be good, but it would have to fit in the article. If you post it as a separate list, I'm sure someone will try to delete it. -- JJay 12:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah agreed, I will be able to stick it in, only 9 for the high school and like another 6 or 7 for the junior school. Thanks for the help anyways, it's really nice :) --KryptonZone 13:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Re : Maywood Avenue School

Hi JJay,

Tally count is 10 keep votes, 6 merge votes, and 1 delete. Majority vote 59%. Merge is not very similiar to keep, because the content is brought over to another article, and the original article deleted/redirected. No consensus is just something academic, because by default it is a "keep" conclusion de facto. So there. :)

Let me know if you need further clarification on my talkpage.

- Greetings!, Mailer Diablo 19:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. Take care too, and happy new year in advance! :) - Mailer Diablo 19:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Religion of Karl Marx

Thanks for your comment. I only disputed the inaccurate claim that Marx converted from Judaism: it is misleading to claim that a baptism in childhood in an irreligious family constitutes a conversion. --- Charles Stewart 19:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ayden Scheim

Thanks kindly for the heads-up. I definitely had to weigh in there. I agree that he's kind of a borderline case, but for me he's at least marginally on the keep side too. Bearcat 05:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Wilsonville High School

Thanks for improving this. I've noticed, that lately you've been one of the top, new school article improvers around here; which is nice to see . --Rob 03:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that. The school articles are fun to work on. -- JJay 03:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In that case, you may wish to add your name to Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools#Participants, as your probably a bigger participant than most of those listed. --Rob 05:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I added the page to my watchlist and will use it for reference, but I'm not sure if I fully agree with all the goals listed, so will hold off on adding my name for now. What I'm trying to do is to prevent the schools from getting deleted, particularly as speedies, like Deland High School and Belmont High School. -- JJay 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No sweat. Even if you don't sign up, you're always welcome contribute to it, in any area, like the notable alumni info I'm gathering there. --Rob 06:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Added: If you are really keen on saving speedied articles, you may wish to check out Wikipedia:Watch/schoolwatch/New, as the red-links are generally speedied articles. Often the entire contents are so small they are included in the deletion summary (which you can view). You'll never catch ever speedy-tagged article before delete, so it's worthing noting they're still "saveable" after (mostly, not always). --Rob 07:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, but I caught both of the school articles above before they were speedied- check the edit histories. I save a few articles every day by monitoring the category. You would be shocked by what is being tagged, the abuse of CSD is frightening. -- JJay 07:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Afd comments

JJay,
I've noticed that you're a bit, well, terse in AfD discussions. There are several reasons that this is less than desirable, most of which I've already mentioned. However, it also lends to the less-than-collegial atmosphere of the discussions. We expect that people who nominate will take a little bit of time to explain why they think something should be deleted, and anyone else who takes part in the discussion should also make some effort to add something other than a naked vote. - brenneman^(t)(c) 00:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That was bloody excellent! - brenneman^(t)(c) 00:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

list of insider traders

I wish you hadn't removed my speedy req on the List of insider traders page I started. I want to go back to the drawing board on that one. I think the categories and lists of market stuff are not in good shape, or at least I have a lot of trouble navigating through things that should be related, but I now reckon what I started won't improve the situation. The problems will be with charges being brought as other offences (say securities fraud in the US, I think), with how widespread insider trading was reputed to be in the US in the 1920s (but which will be very difficult to prove enough to add a pejoritive like insider trader to people from that time), and with closely related scandals missed for not quite being literally insider trading (I'm thinking for instance of Sumitomo copper here). So, as I say, I want to revert and look probably at improving the categories, then think carefully about what manual summaries could be maintained. -- Kevin Ryde 01:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:CIV

Please remember to be civil. Your latest comments were in violation of that rule. Also your comment was not changed, the categorization it had incorrectly placed on the AFD was. Please note the difference as you had placed that AFD in a category it did not belong in, that was all that was corrected.Gateman1997 04:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Very funny. To use your own words, "your comments are no longer welcome". Also do you enjoy when people change your user page? -- JJay 04:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know why I bother. You're definitely not one of the more personable people involved in this project are you? I won't be contacting you again assuming you do the same.Gateman1997 04:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent news. -- JJay 05:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding George W. Bush

JJay, I appreciate your sense of humor in the AfD. I got a huge laugh from your idea of having a bot add GWB to every list, indluding List of Elvis impersonators. Thanks. Logophile 16:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Lindsay_Lohan_Remixes

I researched and followed what I believed to be the correct course of action. Did I jump the gun; did I step in where an admin should have trod? Apparently. Was I attempting to "disrupt" something? Absolutely not. Has the assumption of good faith gone out the window? You tell me. One Wikipedian's edit summary—"what are you doing?"—might just as well have included the untyped "the hell" for the tone it took. This was not a pleasant experience... RadioKirk talk to me 23:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering

I was just wondering if it was just me who thinks aladin is notable. Thanks for verifying the Times - although if you see my discussion page girlinwhite did that a while back. Not that they pay any notice at AfD. Now - what more than a three page article in the world's leading newspaper could establish a person's notability? Probably the spread aladin got in the Asian Age! Call me a cynic about this one. Autumnleaf 01:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we have a new team on the aladin page - my subcontinental crew and you! Let's keep on the case. I just realised the photographer is quite famous on the portrait of aladin in Asian Age. Now - who do you know in London who could check up on a few more press things? I am joking of course - I have texted there already. Autumnleaf 02:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Afd and merges

I think you have a somewhat non-standard view of what Afd means, with respect to merges. There's a bit of discussion on this at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#Is_vote_for_merger_binding_on_destination_article.3F that you might want to read. Merges and redirects can be done by anyone at any time. Of course, if there's disagreement, you talk it over on the talk page, just like any other content dispute. Articles are subject to editing at any time. A prior Afd is not meant to prevent normal editing of the article after it's over. Friday (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The situation is relatively simple. You did not perform a merge. I undid the redirect. The AfD outcome was Keep, not merge. The discussion above is not relevant. -- JJay 19:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's relevant to the issue of your understanding of Afd. You were mentioned specifically there. As for the content issue on Mootstormfront, that talk page is the right place to discuss it. Friday (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• Do you really believe I am not aware of that discussion? If you checked the article in question, you would see that the material has been merged, per the AfD, to the general satisfaction of everyone involved. I understand AfD. I also understand the meaning of merge and keep and redirect. I wonder, though, if you are familiar with the concept of a back door deletion? -- JJay 20:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I found nothing to suggest one way or the other whether you knew about it, that's why I mentioned it. I guess we can only conclude that we have different opinions about what a prior Afd means. If you feel that a merge on an article with a prior Afd is a "back door deletion" (and thus a bad thing), I'd encourage you to make this point on Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion where more people would see it. Friday (talk) 20:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Message from Zoe

Please stop attacking AfD nominations and nominators, or I will start deleting your comments. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

• Could you be more specific? -- JJay 03:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to remove all Jewish lists

Hi. An attempt is being made to force the deletion of all Jewish lists from Wikipedia. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion/Lists_by_religion-ethnicity_and_profession#Proposed_amendment:_remove_most_Jewish-related_lists and my compromise proposals at Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion/Lists_by_religion-ethnicity_and_profession#Proposal_to_make_Jewish_lists_and_categories_historical_only. Thanks Arniep 10:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Home and Away

Hi, you have voted in the afd for various Home&Away character articles. I have had a go at combining all the articles in a single article (which I admit still needs a lot of work). You can find it at Current Home and Away characters. I suggest we keep this article are either delete or re-direct the others. What do you think? I've given a couple of reasons on the deletion page why I think one aticle is better than individual ones. Thanks, Evil Eye 13:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

My comments

Please do not hesitate to continue to tell me when I say something you think is out of line. There's no tone of voice in text, and I'm always happy to err on the side of not offending. If you'd like, I'll dig up some diffs where I've given it good to people who nominate with "NN D". A nomination that does not both clearly state its reasoning and provide some evidence that the person had done some research really does no one any good. Not that mine are always perfect, but I do try.

I'm now off to redact.

brenneman^(t)(c) 01:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

RE:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/East Ukraine - Shave a monkey and call him dad. It would have been nice to have seen this one before it turned into a free-for-all. - brenneman^(t)(c) 01:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Zoe and I pretty much share one brain in two bodies... which probably explains our respective behaviors. I won't comment further on the whole inclusion/deletion factionalisation, but I like to think that I'm not in any camp.

When it comes to people's reactions to the manner in which recomendations are expressed, there is a drunkard's walk analogy. If someone came and said "delete everything" than clearly that would not be compatiable with the goals of the project. There would be no project. But if someone says "keep everything" than the arguments as to why that is incompatiable with the goals of the project are more nuanced. Thus (here's the drunkard's walk) extreme deletionists fall into the ditch and vanish, while extreme inclusionists bounce off the wall and hang around.

This means that the distribution of views does not end up being symmetric, but left skewed. Combine this with the fact that deletion debates are structurally slanted strongly in favour of keeping (mostly for historical reasons to do with the way the database functioned) and you can see why people with mid-range views can get frustrated with someone that they perceive as an extreme inclusionist.

And I normally do try to watch out for flare-ups on AfD, but I've been pretty busy trying to make everyone be rational and civil elsewehere! *cough* user boxes *cough*

brenneman^(t)(c) 02:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

List of sexual slurs

You voted to cleanup, can you be more specific. Do you want to prune the list or remove it? Thanks.Voice of Alle^T|@|ESP 19:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ummm

I realize you don't approve of merging, but there is no reason for you to do a merge template removal as you did here. This is unhelpful to the discussion and disrepectful to other editors. I'm glad you explained yourself on the talk page, but where's the harm leaving the template up? It may draw in more people to comment on the merits of the merge. Friday (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I realize you enjoy redirecting, but why don't you start by participating in the talk page discussions? Furthermore, at what point were you respecting other editors when you redirected the page without discussion? -- JJay 19:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Man, you sound like you're trolling when you say things like that. Can we talk about the articles instead of sniping at each other? I didn't redirect it, I put a merge tag on. I was hoping someone else would comment on the merits of the merge. Now that people have, I've added my two cents. Everyone has their own opinions, and I don't object for one second to you opposing the merge. I do object to you removing the merge template prematurely tho. Friday (talk) 19:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you even keep track of your edits? To refresh your memory, here is a link to your edit redirecting the page. [14]. You did not explain this redirect, on the talk page or anywhere else. What gave you the right to shutdown through this unilateral redirect an ongoing discussion on improving the article, in which you were not a participant? You also did not seek to explain the merge tag you later placed on the article until after it was removed. The fact that you do not like an article's contents does not give you license to suppress the article. I would strongly ask that you consider respecting other editors and normal procedure. -- JJay 19:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, you're very right, I had previously redirected. What I thought we were discussing was the merge tag I added later, sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I redirected because I thought it was best. You reverted because you disagreed, now we're discussing it. It's called bold/revert/discuss and it's a very normal way for things to happen. I did nothing that wasn't easily reversable, as you know (having reverted it). I don't see where the problem is. Friday (talk) 19:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

"non-working redirect"?

I was confused by an edit you made with a summary of "rv non-working redirect", please see Talk:Mootstormfront#non-working_redirect. Thanks. Friday (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Arrgh. To me it really, really looks like you're just being intentionally unhelpful here. Please consider how your responses might look to others. Note that the use of misleading edit summaries is highly frowned upon. I asked nicely for clarification, so I don't know why you'd bother responding in such an unhelpful way. Friday (talk) 22:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm rather busy. If you have a problem I can help you with, please let me know. However, your continued disingenuous distortions are growing tiresome, such as above where you first accuse me of trolling, deny redirecting, then admit I was right. In short, I can not devote all of the very limited amount of time I have available for this project in responding to your incessant inquiries. I would strongly suggest that you find a more useful way of contributing to wikipedia. -- JJay 23:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I was honestly asking. The redirect looked ok to me when viewed as a diff, but I see now it didn't really function correctly. I still wish you'd have fixed it instead of reverting it, but I see now that your edit summary wasn't misleading at all. I apologize for assuming otherwise. Friday (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Democracy AfD

You wrote: "What is more troubling is your propensity to only question votes that do not adhere to your line of thinking. In my opinion, that sort of rigid tunnel vision is best avoided if we want to build a viable project that serves the interests of all users. -- JJay 05:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)"

Do you want me to refute that? Do you really want me to provide links to diffs where I give stick to people for saying "delete" with no rational? We're often on the same AfDs, I'm sure you've seen it. And, to be frank, I don't want to build a project that serves the interests of "all users". The project has goals, and I'm interested in users who support those goals. - brenneman^(t)(c) 05:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

If you have some links that are worth seeing, why not? Can you also point me to the page that lists project goals (and I don't mean guidelines or policy). Otherwise, thanks for being frank. -- JJay 05:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Man, that was meant to be rhetorical. Now I have to dig through my contributions! Lucky I'm scrupulous about edit summaries. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Link dump

These are in reverse order, just the last eight (?) times I saw that I gave someone my opinion of AfD. I haven't (willfully) biased the sample, just took what came quasi-randomly. I won't annotate, I'd prefer you just looked for yourself. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]

This is good stuff. I don't have time to make observations right now, but do you have links that date prior to Jan 1? -- JJay 10:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Goodness, you want blood. I'll try, but then I'm afraid I'll hit a rich vein of me giving stick to people who way "keep" and everything will collapse. - brenneman^(t)(c) 10:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Err, too cryptic?

Yea, if it doesn't make sense than revert. I thought that it was totally transparent. Trying to eliminate the most eggregious "stick something in a list even if only twelve people say it" entries using the bluntest of tools.

There are mostly two urls per edit summary, but only for deleted entries. It took me a few tries to figure out what would fit. For things that looked like they were protologisms but appeared to have some provenance, I pasted the link in html comments.

Which entry was footnoted?

brenneman^(t)(c) 09:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

But if you do feel the urge to revert, please try a few of the links first, to get a feel for if you think I've been to aggressive. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The list needs to be pruned. There's no doubt about that and I hope to participate if it survives AfD. The footnoted term you removed was woofter. Also I almost never use standard google for references, I source using books or publication databases. -- JJay 09:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

(Goes back to look at woofter in history.) Oh... an actual proper footnote. So rarely seen in the wild, I did not even recognise it. My apologies. - brenneman^(t)(c) 10:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Your contributions

Please take this in the spirit in which it's intended.

I was looking for a particular item in my history, and couldn't find it. Recalling that you had commented on my comment, I looked at your contribution history. It's pretty striking. In your last 500 contrubtions, over half have been to AfD. That's a lot.

I'm a pretty heavy participant in AfD. Out of my last 500 contributions, 55 have been to AfD, and that includes the ten that I've closed.

I understand that you've got some pretty strong feelings regarding what should and shouldn't be included. I also note that the contributions that you do make to mainspace are fantastic. [23] But your time and energy would be much better spent making more of those and less time arguing on AfD.

The simple fact is that well written, well referenced articles about notable topics are very _very_ rarely deleted. Using the Jewfro example, merges result in no loss of information. I love merges. It's just not efficient to spend your time "saving" things. You'll wear yourself out. brenneman^(t)(c) 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)