Wikipedia talk:Article titles

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WP:COMMONNAME examples (again)

I have noticed that the number of examples given is creeping up again.
How many examples do we need?
Perhaps more importantly, what kind of examples do we need?
Perhaps we need to discuss why each example is given, and come up with a way to organize/group them. For example, "Caffeine", "Down syndrome", and "Guinea pig" are all science related COMMONNAMES "Bill Clinton" and "Lady Gaga" are both people related COMMONNAMES. Blueboar (talk) 13:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Use commonly recognized names

I propose to rename the Wikipedia:Article_titles#Common_names section title to "Use commonly recognizable names in titles".

The current title, "Common names" seems regularly confused as to referring to vernacular or nick names ("common") versus formal names. I think what it means is: "Use commonly recognized names". — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJoe (talk • contribs) 01:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

There was a protracted squabble in Sept. 2009 (around here) about whether commonname was a goal, or a strategy in support of recognizability. I agree with you that it should be in support of recognizability, and that the current section title obscures that. Dicklyon (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks. I had missed that. I think that "common name" can't be a goal without defining "common", and that if it needs definition is is a poor explanation. I meant to put "commonly" in the suggested section title (now inserted), not wanting to break continuity, or recognizability of the section for people expecting to find the old title. I also think the on-screen encouraged shortcut should be changed from "WP:COMMONNAME", given the tendency of many to assume the all-caps oneword is a sufficient summary of what it links to. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:05, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see the shortcut WP:COMMONNAME deprecated. It's often cited inappropriately in move discussions (Talk:Picea pungens and Talk:Medusagyne are recent examples). I'd also like to see the overlooked footnote 3, "Where the term "common name" appears in this policy it means a commonly or frequently used name, and not a common name as used in some disciplines in opposition to scientific name," brought into the main body of WP:COMMONNAME. Plantdrew (talk) 18:59, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I entirely agree. Some editors clearly misunderstand what "common name" means in this context. (They typically also stress this part of WP:AT to the exclusion of the other four principles – how often do you see WP:PRECISION used in a discussion?) WP:COMMONNAME should really be WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

If anyone would read it, WP:COMMONNAME should probably redirect to a section that explains what is not a common name. Sometimes explaining what something is not is better then trying to explain what it is. 23:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Is there no opposition to renaming the section title? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Not from me... I think it is a useful clarification. My call... make the change, and we can discuss further if anyone objects after the fact. I would keep the shortcut, however... people are used to it. Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have been BOLD and made the change. Blueboar (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME - The original 4 examples

These were the original 4 WP:COMMONNAME examples when a list was first merged in:

• Bill Clinton (not "William Jefferson Clinton")
• Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento")
• Venus de Milo (not "Aphrodite of Melos")
• Guinea pig (not Cavia porcellus)

The second in the original list was removed with summary "Pelé is not a good example as "Pele" without the squiggle is the common English spelling" - and reverted "the article is titled with the "squiggle" (accent))"

But is there any doubt that the "WP:COMMONNAME" for Edson Arantes do Nascimento does in fact include an accent?

Firstly we know it does (since it is Portuguese). Secondly in English Google Books:

• Pele footballer -pelé "About 2,750 results" since 2000
• Pelé footballer -pele "About 5,450 results" since 2000

So what is the problem with retaining Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento") as one of the 4 original examples? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that your search omits American sources... try your searches with the word "Soccer" instead of "Football"... I suspect the results would be very different.

Another problem is that using Pele/Pelé as an example needlessly gets us into the "Great diacritics debate". While your hit count would support:

• Pele or Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento")

What you are really asking us to say is:

• Pelé (not "Pele" or "Edison Arantes do Nascimento").

Which is not justified. Both Pelé and Pele get thousands of hits. While both are significantly more commonly used when compared to his real name, neither is significantly more common than the other when compared to each other. The choice between "Pelé" vs "Pele" remains unresolved under WP:COMMONNAME. That's why it is a bad example. Blueboar (talk) 13:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, "Pele footballer -pelé" gets about 7.5 million web hits and Pele footballer -pele" about 2.1 million web hits. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, I thought the purpose of WP:COMMONNAME was to establish commonly used names Bill Clinton (not "William Jefferson Clinton"), Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento"), Venus de Milo (not "Aphrodite of Melos"), Guinea pig (not Cavia porcellus) not to act as some kind of guidance on using basic Anglo ASCII fonts? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

You miss my point. We don't want to use an example that involves three choices. Yes... both Pelé and Pele are more common than Edison Arantes do Nascimento... but there is great debate over the choice between Pelé oder Pele. That choice is more complicated, and involves issues that have nothing to do with the basic concept of COMMONNAME. So, my opinion is that it does not make a good example for use in WP:COMMONNAME... we should not use either Pelé oder Pele, because no matter which we use, it will get us away from explaining clearly the the basic concept behind COMMONNAME. Blueboar (talk) 18:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, But why would anyone even raise the "third" choice - which is no choice, and isn't mentioned. You raised above what was and wasn't missing from the WP:COMMONNAME examples, I'm saying that what was made missing in the removal of "Pelé (not "Edison Arantes do Nascimento")." was the possibility that a Non-basicASCII name could be a WP:COMMONNAME. As it stands the Pelé removed list looks unanimously basic ASCII, it could (and has) lead readers to think that only basic ASCII names are WP:COMMONNAMES. And yet en.wp 100% of Pelé, Antoni Gaudí, Teresa of Ávila, Søren Kierkegaard, François Mitterrand, Tomás Ó Fiaich (to cite those examples used in MOS guidelines) are non-basic ASCII, are none of these examples WP:COMMONNAMEs? Likewise, is Emily Brontë "(not Emily Jane Brontë)", since not basic ASCII, not a suitable WP:COMMONNAME?

PS - On a side issue (but related to your question) in many ways the example on WP:NCP Antoni Gaudí (not Antoni Gaudí i Cornet) is quite important in that en.wp departs from ca.wp and es.wp in not using matronymics. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

But people do raise the third choice... Frequently. A LOT of Editors don't see Pelé and Pele as being simply two variations of the same name (a matter of ASCII typography) either of which could be the title... they see them as two distinct titles and want guidance on which to use. We intentionally don't give that guidance in WP:COMMONNAME, because we realize that often one is not significantly more common than the other (and thus not solvable through an application of WP:COMMONNAME). We leave that debate for WP:DIACRITICS to resolve (note: while the specific issue of Pelé vs Pele may not have come up, editors have gotten into huge debates over other, similar titles ... with both sides of the debate attemptinf to point to WP:COMMONNAME to support their arguments. So far, neither side has done so successfully - precisely because we have intentionally avoided framing the issue in terms of WP:COMMONNAME... leaving it for WP:DIACRITICS to discuss.) Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, well my experience is that it isn't working. Wikipedia talk:Article titles is a "policy", Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is a "guideline", therefore some users may read that the noPelé "policy" trumps the "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich" guideline.

However as a aside, you know that of the circa 2-300,000, European accentable titles on en.wp 99.999% are in fact accented yes? (I'm just checking, some editors will deny this, but I wouldn't expect you would/do).

If you don't deny that, then are there none of those 99.999% of possible titles which are in line with WP:COMMONNAME? If you were asked to cite an en.wp non-basic-ASCII article title which is in line with WP:COMMONNAME which article would you cite? (I would cite Noël Coward FWIW). In ictu oculi (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a distraction from the point of COMMONNAME. The question of when and whether to use diacriticals can have its own place. The fact that this particular article full of guidelines is called "policy" may be a problem, but that's yet again a different problem from what we're discussing here. Dicklyon (talk) 21:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course diacritics does have its own place on WP:AT - the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used since they predominate in English language reliable sources, while for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used., but the fact that Søren Kierkegaard (not Søren Aabye Kierkegaard) can't be mentioned up in WP:COMMONNAME, means that WP:COMMONNAME is going to continue to be misused, misread, and mislinked. The reason we're having this discussion is some editors saying "'Oppose Søren Kierkegaard per WP:COMMONNAME" when Søren Kierkegaard isn't mentioned in WP:COMMONNAME Bill Clinton is. Dicklyon, you have seen that happening, yes? This may or may not be a distraction from the point of COMMONNAME. But the fact that WP:COMMONNAME doesn't even link or hint to the existence of non-ASCII letters when so many 100,000s of AT use non-ASCII letters is what? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There was a time when there was a technical limitation on article titles when mentioning ASCII was pertinent to the debate but that was a long time ago, so Iio why do you use the term ASCII and not the "English alphabet" when discussing this issue? -- PBS (talk) 14:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Convenience/shorthand for the more complicated issue (where I wear two hats, one in university publishing, one in finance publishing) where cost decisions override technical as the main basis of MOS, although technical considerations still have a part. Please ask someone in academic publishing if you are not familiar with the issues. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" issue, it seems to me. By not including an example of a common name with diacritics, WP:COMMONNAME can be read to imply that diacritics won't occur in a common name used as a title. On the other hand, putting in an example with diacritics distracts from the point of the examples. How about putting in a parenthesised sentence saying something like "(For the use of accented characters in titles, see WP:DIACRITICS.)"? Peter coxhead (talk) 14:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

If the feeling is that a accent mark is needed then why not just use one that meets the suggestion in WP:DIACRITICS "In general, the sources in the article, a Google book search of books published in the last quarter-century or thereabouts, and a selection of other encyclopaedias, should all be examples of reliable sources; if all three of them use a term, then that is fairly conclusive". Would a maiden name in place of the less common married name or pen name do eg Charlotte Brontë not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell? -- PBS (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

While I prefer Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento") for page-history consistency, neverthelss would support PBS suggestion Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell) ...and it is possible that the double inclusion of the married name and pseudonym Currer Bell is particularly useful. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

NOTE... The appropriate and inappropriate use of diacritics is dealt with in the WP:AT policy... it is simply dealt with in another section (see WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS). The diacritics issue is quite clearly explained there. There is no need to include it in the COMMONNAME section. Indeed, including an example with diacritics in the WP:COMMONNAME section will simply detract from the basic concept we are trying to explain in the COMMONNAME section (how we determine recognizably), lead to unnecessary arguments, and confuse new editors. It is a separate issue, and thus should be dealt with separately. Blueboar (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but this doesn't preclude putting in a link to where this separate issue is discussed, which is what I propose. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Instruction creep... no need to link... it's further down the page in the same policy. Blueboar (talk) 15:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but when editors follow a link like WP:COMMONNAME, how often do they read further down the page? (Rhetorical question!) Clearly there is a need to cross-link because editor have misunderstood WP:COMMONNAME to mean that diacritics shouldn't be used. It's not "instruction creep" to cross-link; it creates no new instructions. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, I'm afraid the comment "Instruction creep... no need to link... it's further down the page in the same policy." is exactly the wrong point. The whole point of this discussion is as said above that some users are unable to scroll. It's a long way down the same policy, and anyone misciting WP:COMMONNAME and reading "Bill Clinton (not William Jefferson Clinton) as "Bill Clinton has no accent", may not even know that Søren Kierkegaard is a person not a place (I'm serious). However if PBS suggestion Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell) was among the examples, that may remove the need for scrolldown assistance. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with Charlotte Brontë as an example, as the diacritic there seems completely uncontroversial. Don't be surprised if half the readers don't recognize it as a person's name though. Dicklyon (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

However, to my great surprise, Google ngrams show that the form with a diacritic is much, much less common than the form without in all corpora (except French!); see e.g. [1]. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Peter, why would that surprise you. Charlotte Brontë isn't more common in bulk sources any more than the examples we do use Pelé, Antoni Gaudí, Teresa of Ávila, Søren Kierkegaard, François Mitterrand, Tomás Ó Fiaich. No more than Björn Borg, Emily Brontë, Emeli Sandé, Noël Coward, Zoë Ball, Zoë Baird, Renée Fleming... none of these article titles are more common in Google Ngrams. All of en.wp's relevant articles among the 4 million are wrong if we go by counting numbers. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I guess it surprised me because "Bronte" just seems wrong to me, as does "Pele" or "Francois" and because I hadn't realized the degree to which English sources drop diacritics – my reading matter is obviously not typical! I certainly don't endorse just counting numbers; this is an encyclopaedia and we should value correctness over populism. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree, but our guidelines are written (or rather edit-warred) to push the idea that we should value a majority of populist/cheap/old/low-MOS sources other a minority of correct/expensive/accurate/academic/high-MOS sources, and consequently all our en.wp titles are actually wrong according to the guidelines. Or it's possible that the 1000s of editors creating and upgrading articles are right and the MOS-warriored content here is deliberately at odds with the en.wp reality. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:48, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

In ictu... when you use words like "correct" and "accurate" and "wrong"... according to who? If the majority of sources spell the name as Bronte instead of Brontë... then who are we to say that Bronte is wrong, or that Brontë is correct or accurate? They are different, but one is not correct and the other is not wrong. Blueboar (talk) 11:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, sure, answer my questions to you and I'll be happy to answer your latest set of questions to me. This is a discussion, not a one way street after all. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I thought I had answered your questions. Which ones did I not reply to? Blueboar (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The statement "none of these article titles are more common in Google Ngrams" is worse than misleading, since Google n-grams are based on data from books, mostly scanned and OCR'd by a technology that does not see diacriticals. Go into the book search previews (not the snippets) and count some yourself to see... For example, how many of these books omit the accent from Renée Fleming? Dicklyon (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, many thanks for pointing this out! There's nothing so pointless as a discussion based on false data. I ought to have known, since I regularly see how poor is Google's digital version of old botany sources. Scientific names, since they are in italics, are usually among the least likely words to be correctly recognized, and yet they are the very words I want to find. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The section of "Modified letters" in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) has warning on this; "Search engines are problematic unless their verdict is overwhelming; modified letters have the additional difficulties that some search engines will not distinguish between the original and modified forms, and others fail to recognize the modified letter because of optical character recognition errors". -- PBS (talk) 09:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Iio can you prove this statement: "..., but our guidelines are written (or rather edit-warred) to push the idea that we should value a majority majority of populist/cheap/old/low-MOS sources other a minority of correct/expensive/accurate/academic/high-MOS sources", because it seems to me that you a using a old rhetoric trick of omne trium perfectum so beloved of Winston Churchill "we shall fight them on the beaches...". Actually the move was away from using all sources to determine names and towards using reliable sources as defined by WP:SOURCE, (but we do have a specific prohibition of using names that are found only in specialist journals ("Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize")). Iio you often ignore the guidance given by reliable sources by arguing that any source that does not fit your preconceived perception of what is correct, is incorrect. I think that your attitude to this issue is extremely damaging to the project. This is apply demonstrated by your answer to Blueboar's reasonable question "Blueboar, sure, answer my questions to you and I'll be happy to answer your latest set of questions to me". So let me repeat the reasonable question: Iio when you use words like "correct" and "accurate" and "wrong" according to whom? -- PBS (talk) 09:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

PBS, as it happens I think that your attitude to this issue is extremely damaging to the project - and specifically your view that sources which don't carry French accents at all count as reliable sources for whether an accent should be used or not.

But I have agreed with your suggestion to add Charlotte Brontë, let's not mess around further and lets get on with it.

As for Blueboar and my conversation, that is Blueboar and my dialogue, I'm sure if Blueboar wants to answer my question, he will do so for himself.

DickLyon, yes. "none of these article titles are more common in Google Ngrams" doesn't account for OCR errors in Google Books. It is possible that Charlotte Brontë may appear in more books with high MOS than low MOS, but if Google Ngrams include html then that is unlikely. Someone can check if they wish. But overall I agree with you.

Peter, yes, I agree with you. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

"and specifically your view that sources which don't carry French accents at all count as reliable sources for whether an accent should be used or not." Of course all reliable sources should be weighed in the balance, because while it can be argued that educated English speakers ought to have an understanding of French, German, Portuguese and Spanish, and that accents for those languages can be included, the majority of educated English speakers can not be expected to understand accents in all languages (this is the guidance given in Economist Style Guide), the simple solution to this, and the one which Wikipedia follows, is to follow usage in reliable English language sources, which automatically takes care of the issue without the need for a complicated rule or arbitrary cut-offs which tends work most of the time but does not cater for exceptions which the simple rule automatically does. If in your question to Blueboar you mean continental European names you should say that is what you mean, or do you include Britain and Ireland in your grouping of Europe? To answer you question you put to Blueboar about European usage. I have no idea how many, but what I do know there would be a more if those moves you have participated in were to follow usage in reliable English language sources. I think you lack of good faith in this area in not following usage in reliable English language sources has damaged the Wikiepdia project. -- PBS (talk) 16:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

PBS,

Thank you, but I am familiar with Economist Style Guide having contributed to various of their publications. As far as your "To answer you question you put to Blueboar about European usage. I have no idea how many,..." then it is good that I asked Blueboar, seeing as the discussion relates to Blueboar's comments.

Now as below. We need to add Charlotte. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi... Sorry, but I can't find a question for me to answer. However, I may have missed it in all the verbiage, so would you please ask it again? In the mean time, I will ask my question again... "when you use words like "correct" and "accurate" and "wrong"... according to whom?" Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Blueboar the question above is " However as a aside, you know that of the circa 2-300,000, European accentable titles on en.wp 99.999% are in fact accented yes? (I'm just checking, some editors will deny this, but I wouldn't expect you would/do). If you don't deny that, then are there none of those 99.999% of possible titles which are in line with WP:COMMONNAME? If you were asked to cite an en.wp non-basic-ASCII article title which is in line with WP:COMMONNAME which article would you cite? (I would cite Noël Coward FWIW). In ictu oculi (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)" In ictu oculi (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Iio what definition do you use for a "high-MOS" and what is your definition for a "low-MOS" and accept in cases where there is a specific published MOS how does notone ascertain which MOS a particular publication falls into without using the sort of tautological argument you usually present? -- PBS (talk) 16:09, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

PBS, you suggested we add Charlotte, lets get on and add Charlotte. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

@Iio - Re: "of the circa 2-300,000, European accentable titles on en.wp 99.999% are in fact accented yes?" - I don't know whether that is true or not. But for the sake of the discussion, I am willing to assume that it might be true. There are several explanations as to why it might be true... 1) Some of them may be about subjects/topics that are not covered in English Language sources. When this occurs the instruction in WP:COMMONNAME to follow the most commonly used variant found in English Language sources would not apply, and we would follow the common usage in non-English Language sources instead. 2) Some of the articles may have been unthinkingly copied over from other versions of WP... without checking to see if the title needed to be changed to conform to en.WP policy. 3) There are editors on both sides of the "Diacritics debate" who POV push... and either add or subtract diacritics inappropriately.

My objection isn't to titles having diacritics... The reality is that in some titles diacritics are appropriate (and in other titles they are not). What I object to is using a title with a diacritic as an example in the WP:COMMONNAME section of this policy. My objection is because the use of diacritics in titles is both complex to understand and an issue that is likely to lead to arguments and debate. Including a title that has a diacritic this section distracts editors from understanding the basic concept we are attempting to convey through the examples. The reader will focus on the use/non-use of the diacritic and not on the issue of commonality. Blueboar (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Blueboar - the question I asked was "If you were asked to cite an en.wp non-basic-ASCII article title which is in line with WP:COMMONNAME which article would you cite?" - forgive me but I cannot see where you have answered the question? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

There are several good ones at Andre (given name). Blueboar (talk) 01:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

If people think we must include an example with a diacritic... may I suggest one that unequivocally has the diacritic in both options. Something like:

• René Foobar (not "René Middlename Foobar de Unrecognizable")

This would take the issue of diacritics out of the example. Blueboar (talk) 13:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Then Charlotte Brontë as PBS proposal, or François Mitterrand whom we already use in WP:OPENPARA or Antoni Gaudí whom we already use in WP:NCP. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm... what would be the "not" for François Mitterrand? Blueboar (talk) 01:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, please move the cursor to the bluelink in "François Mitterrand whom we already use in WP:OPENPARA" and click. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

So the proposed example would be:

• François Mitterand (not: François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand}

Hmmm... I suppose that might work... Although it seems to be more an application of WP:OFFICIALNAME than an application of WP:COMMONNAME (on the other hand, the two policy points are directly related and overlap... COMMONNAME being why we don't use the OFFICIALNAME). What do others think? Blueboar (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Charlotte Brontë as an example

I don't think she is a good example (and have removed her)... in this case, the WP:COMMONAME point we are trying to highlight is that her maiden name is more commonly used (and thus more recognizable) than her various married names. This has nothing to do with diacritics. HOWEVER, because there is a diacritic in her maiden name, editors may misunderstand the point we are actually trying to make... they will focus on the diacritic in her maiden name - and miss the whole maiden name/married name point entirely. We can find a different example of maiden vs married name recognizably - one that does not involve the side question of diacritics. Blueboar (talk) 13:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Karen Blixen maybe? Has pen-name and maiden name. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm... that is a somewhat complex example... it could be written as:

• Karen Blixen (not "Karen von Blixen-Finecke", "Karen Christenze Dinesen", "Isak Dinesen", "Osceola" or "Pierre Andrézel").

The problem is that she has more than one pen name on top of her a maiden name and married name. The question is whether it is overly complex. I am thinking that each example should clearly illustrate a different (and distinct) recognizably issue. Indeed, it may be helpful to be more explicit as to why each example was chosen... I am wondering whether we should include some text to tell readers exactly what the point of each example actually is. Something like:

• Nicknames that are more recognizable than full names - Ex: Bill Clinton (not William Jefferson Clinton)
• Stage names that are more recognizable than real names - Ex: Lady Gaga (not: Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta)
• Places that are more recognizable under an English Language name than a non-English name - Ex: The Hague (not: 's-Gravenhage)

etc. What do people think about this idea? Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, I think it is pointless, a bad idea, and not listening to the problem. What we need is to add an example with a diacritic to prevent WP:COMMONNAME being misread by readers unable to scroll down, oder add a link to help scroll down. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

No... I am listening to you... I just don't agree with you. I do understand what you want: an example that goes

• Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Bronte).

But that isn't what the example I removed said... Look again at the exact language of the example...

• Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell)

This is a bad example for what you want, because we are not presenting the choice between Brontë and Bronte... we are presenting the choice between Brontë and Nichols (or Bell). And the reason why we prefer "Brontë" has nothing to do with whether her name has a diacritic or not... yet because it does contain a diacritic, editors may get confused and think that the diacritic is the issue (when it isn't). Blueboar (talk) 23:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Blueboar, with respect if you are listening then can you please show where I asked for something "presenting the choice between Brontë and Bronte..." - we do not need any such thing, what we need is to add an example with a diacritic to prevent WP:COMMONNAME being misread by readers unable to scroll down, or add a link to help scroll down. "Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell)" does that job more than adequately. The original example "Pelé (not "Edson Arantes do Nascimento")" also did the job well.

re "I do understand what you want: an example that goes Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Bronte).

I do not "want" any such thing and cannot understand how you could possibly have misread that. PBS, Peter coxhead and DickLyon all managed to understand this clearly. May I respectfully suggest reading more carefully. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Pele is a bad example and was the reason I deleted it in the first case. Given the evidence presented by Peter coxhead, I tend to agree with Blueboar that Charlotte Brontë is not such a good example to use. I think if we are to use an example with an accent mark it should be one where it is clear that it is one where the use in reliable English language sources is unequivocal, or at the very least meets two and a half of the three tests (eg sources in the article and used by modern encyclopaedias (and common even if not the most common in a book search). It may be that Charlotte Brontë meets these requirements. -- PBS (talk) 12:43, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

OK... I will take your word for it. However, I don't think the inability of editors to scroll down is a realistic problem. And if it is a problem, it isn't one that relates to WP:COMMONNAME. I think what you are asking for is nothing more than necessary instruction creep that is more harmful than helpful. So... it seems it comes down to this... I believe that including an example with a diacritic will cause people to misunderstand WP:COMMONNAME, while you think that not including an example with a diacritic will cause people to misunderstand WP:COMMONNAME. We are at an impass. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree, and see what other editors have to say on the matter. Blueboar (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I would not have expected "OK... I will take your word for it." in regard to such an obvious case of not reading. Anyway can you please be more specific than "There are several good ones at Andre (given name)." above, thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure... but not yet... I have answered several questions you have asked me (perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I have answered)... it's your turn to answer a question I have asked... you use words like "correct" and "accurate" and "wrong" in several of your comments throughout our discussion on diacritics in the examples... and I have now asked you several times... according to whom?" Blueboar (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Whether it is or isn't my turn we'll leave. When I said "sources other a minority of correct/expensive/accurate/academic/high-MOS sources, and consequently all our en.wp titles are actually wrong according to the guidelines." "correct/expensive/accurate/academic/high-MOS" would be "correct-according-to-orthography-rules/expensive-according-to-my-experience-in-university-and-business-publishing/accurate-according-to-primary(yes French, German)-sources/academic-according-to-usual-meaning-of-the-word/high-MOS-according-to-general-use-of-"high/low"-in-style-discussions." And "actually wrong according to the guidelines" means according to current ambiguous wording of WP:DIACRITICS to favour number of sources over WP:RS reliablity of source "for the statement being made". So anyway, which André were you suggesting? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

@PBS: Blueboar has correctly debunked the data I presented purporting to show how common the form "Charlotte Bronte" is – it's almost certainly due to digitization of old books which misses diacritics. So I think that "Charlotte Brontë (not Charlotte Nichols or Currer Bell)" is a good example to add. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

@Several editors: please let's not get bogged down in "who said what" (or "who asked what question") discussions and try to keep to the issues (a) finding a good example with a diacritic in it (b) deciding whether the example should be added. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Peter, what is your take on

• François Mitterand (not: François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand}

I think that is the closest anyone has come (so far) to finding an example with a diacritic that I could live with. Blueboar (talk) 02:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

As before I prefer both Pelé for article history consistency, but we already use François Mitterand in WP:MOSPN and it seems that no editor has repeated this edit (which contributed to a topic block). So I'd support François Mitterand or Charlotte Brontë, whichever. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

OK... having thought about it more... I have added Mitterand. I think it is overkill, but not worth arguing about any further. Blueboar (talk) 14:21, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

It does the needed job, thank you. I see not Jack Kennedy has been added, that's also okay. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

COMMONNAME Counter examples?

As long as we are discussing the examples in WP:COMMONNAME, and how they might be misunderstood... I am concerned that editors will misunderstand a key point about WP:COMMONNAME - which is that it is a subject specific application (ie that you can not take the result of a COMMONNAME determination at one article, and apply it as a "rule" in other articles). Offering counterbalancing examples may resolve that. For example, we could counterbalance

• Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton)

With

• John F. Kennedy (not: Jack Kennedy)

The idea is to highlight that applying COMMONNAME does not always give you the same end result. Results are determined by the sources - and since the sources don't follow one consistent "rule" from one subject/topic to another, COMMONNAME will result in WP having inconsistent titles... and that is OK. Blueboar (talk) 12:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

The specific example is fine, but on the other hand, consistency is one of the five principles, so I wouldn't want to imply that it's simply "OK" to have inconsistent titles. Ideally the five principles would produce the same answer, but in practice they often don't, and a balance has to be struck, which may lead to inconsistency in some cases but to a less commonly recognized title in others. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:54, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying... and we certainly don't want to imply that consistency is "bad". However, I think most people would agree that when we balance the five principles, consistency is usually (but not always) the first to be set aside in favor of the others. It belongs in the five principles... but it sort of marches a half step behind the others. My point though was really focused on COMMONNAME (a function of the principle of Recognizability)... and in that context (and only that context) consistency does not enter into the picture, and inconsistency is OK. Blueboar (talk) 02:18, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Links to COMMONNAME section

Should WP:COMMONNAME and similar ones directly link to the article section ("Use commonly recognizable names")? Kind regards, 㓟 (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Um... the shortcut WP:COMMONNAME already does link directly to the article section in question. Or did you mean to ask: "Should WP:COMMONNAME continue to link directly to the section?" My answer to that would be, "yes". Blueboar (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

The links got broken with the change in section title. I changed the redirects to point to the section under its new name. Plantdrew (talk) 22:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah... thanks. Blueboar (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Deadmaus/5 discussion

Check out Talk:Deadmaus#Requested_move_2. Super interesting; doesn't this seem like a logical exception to our trademark policy? Should we rewrite to account for cases where the non-standard-english spelling (Deadmau5) is by far the dominant spelling? Red Slash 09:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

No - we don't follow vanity spellings to keep the fans happy - see also Se7en, etc., etc. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

And as mentioned at the Deadmaus talk, Seven was moved because that name appeared so much in reliable sources... of course, it's mostly because the theatrical posters and official DVDs have "Seven" displayed quite clearly. But here we have a number of sources that use "deadmau5", and it's quite clearly the official term.

Speaking of reliable sources... as they are considered reliable, they are free to ignore basic fact-checking and fabricate any name they please; as they are considered reliable, no one questions them of otherwise, even when errors are brought to light. Yes, the quantity of reliable sources is considered important in this regard. If there are more reliable sources that say one thing, it is generally accepted that we do that one thing. Combine these two things and you get the problem with swearing by all of these reliable sources so easily.

...Oh look, yet another Kotaku article with a clear error, and it even has a link at the end that uses "deadmau5". It's quite obvious what they're doing is intentional. I'm really tempted to open a discussion on them for this alone. Despatche (talk) 12:13, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Wonderful (sigh)... yet another conflict of interpretation between MOS guidance and this Policy. This is a perfect example of where WP:COMMONNAME does apply to "styling". This is not just a "vanity" spelling/styling used by fans... The vast majority of non-fan media and industry sources use "Deadmau5" as well. More importantly they use it consistently (ie the don't spell it "Deadmau5" at the top of the page, and then switch to "Deadmous" in the body of their text) ... nor is it a "logo" issue (it's not like the "BEA_TLES" logo that appeared on Ringo's drums, but not in sources). Deadmau5 is by far the most recognizable (ie common) name. "Deadmau5" is how people are going to search for this topic, and it is the title that they are going to expect to find the topic under.

MOS guidance is good advice... but it should not be applied as a "one-size-fits-all", always to be followed rule ... it has to be applied on a case-by-case basis, with the acknowledgment that there are going to be exceptions. This is one of them. Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

When there does exist an official alternate name over the more common/better recognized but otherwise difficult to write promotional name (Seven vs Se7en, Deadmaus vs Deadmau5) we should use the one that makes it as easy as possible for an English reader to read the text, including the article title - in general that being the alternate name. "Deadmau5", if used out of context, seems unpronouncable, but "Deadmaus" is straight forward. We of course should state upfront these more official names but our writing style needs to be geared towards comprehension over being exact, if being exact is going to lead to confusion. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(ec) And how is Deadmau5 any different from a name with a diacritic in it? Look at Bjursås... your average English speaker will have no idea how that name is supposed to be pronounced. Thankfully, it is explained in the very first sentence of the article so ignoramuses who are not familiar with Swedish (like me) can figure it out. We can do the same with Deadmau5.

You may be different, but I don't find Deadmau5 that hard to understand, read or pronounce (I had never heard of him before this discussion... and yet it took me only a few seconds to see that it was a play on lettering, and how to pronounce it.) I certainly find Deadmau5 is much easier to understand, read and pronounce than most diacritic-ed names.

(Hell... you don't need diacritics... consider Llanfairpwllgwyngyll... your average English speaking reader isn't going to have a clue on that one) Blueboar (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2013 (UTC) Blueboar (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and personally, I fully endorse Andy Dingley's comment in that second move request. If we're going to behave in a stupid fashion, then lets just go full out. Resolute 14:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The relevant discussion is now at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2013 June. Binksternet (talk) 14:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Sarah Brown title discussion

This discussion may be of interest to this page. Talk:Sarah_Brown_(wife_of_Gordon_Brown)#Requested_move_6_.28June_2013.29, as it looks at the question of when should WP:COMMONNAME be used, if the result is offensive to some? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Names of articles relating to districts and wards of Tanzania

There is an ongoing discussion of the names of articles relating to the districts and wards of Tanzania. Those are political subdivisions of the country below the region level. The options essentially boil down to, for example, "Rombo", "Rombo district", "Rombo district of Tanzania", or "Rombo district (Kilimanjaro region of Tanzania)". Please comment as you feel apppropriate at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rombo Thanks. AfricaTanz (talk) 15:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Names of counties of Texas

Why do the article names for counties of Texas follow this format: "Bexar county, Texas"? Shouldn't it be just "Bexar county"? AfricaTanz (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

As there doesn't seem to be another Bexar County, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I'd say so. --Rob Sinden (talk) 15:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

See WP:USPLACE. --Orlady (talk) 16:17, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That's merely a guideline developed by consensus, which would allow any Wikipedia project to do the same, i.e., adopt an unusual article naming convention. AfricaTanz (talk) 20:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe virtually all United States counties are so named (County, State). Omnedon (talk) 20:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And the consensus (or more accurately, the lack of consensus to change or remove the guideline) has been repeatedly established with pretty wide participation beyond any single Wikipedia project. older ≠ wiser 20:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

See the WP:CRITERIA section of the WP:AT policy... where it talks about consistency being a key principle. A majority of place names in the US are duplicated over more than one State (thus requiring the State name to be added to the article title as a form of disambiguation). Because this is so prevalent, it becomes more consistent to include the State name in our title, even when not needed. Your typical Wikipedia reader (ie our audience) has come to expect the title of articles on US places to include the name of the State. Blueboar (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That consistency principle is not followed for articles relating to other countries. Why is the USA a special case? AfricaTanz (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

They are a special case because of the amount of duplication in place names between States. That isn't something other nations have to deal with as much. Blueboar (talk) 23:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe they are the ones who should join the US's method instead of the other way around. --Golbez (talk) 21:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I am trying to convince some peope of that right now but getting nowhere. They prefer "Rombo" to "Rombo district, Tanzania" or the equivalent. They argue that the latter is too complex. I think the former is user unfriendly, especially because it is a Kiswahili word. I think people don't like my proposal because it's coming from me. AfricaTanz (talk) 22:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that would be good in so many ways. However many editors like to see articles at the primary name and don't agree with including more information in the article name, even if the vast majority of readers have no idea what the title is about (Rombo anyone?). One main argument is consistency. Yet, fully disambiguation place names produce the most consistency with the fewest exceptions. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Isn't the Rombo a ballroom dancing style? That's what many people will think. But who cares about them.... Two additional words in the article title would hurt nobody except those obsessed with questionable rules and who have never heard of WP:IAR. AfricaTanz (talk) 01:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Scintillating further reading on this point can be found in this super exciting discussion. Be forewarned: it's not for the faint of heart. AgnosticAphid talk 23:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:USPLACE appears to fall foul of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, but I assume that it would be fruitless to try to change it. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:50, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• I always thought WP:USPLACE applied to cities (or as it says there, settlements). It's pretty well established, through multiple discussions, that US cities are titled Cityname, Statename regardless of whether the city name is unique. This is not just because the US is a big country; it is because Americans virtually always say the names of cities this way; it is the WP:COMMONNAME for US cities. And there are enough people who feel passionately about this that it will not change - not for cities. IMO there is no similar reason for counties to be named this way (and Omnedon is correct; all US counties are currently titled Countyname, Statename). But counties are not "settlements", to which USPLACE applies, and it is not customary to Americans to say the names of counties in this way. As far as I am concerned USPLACE applies to cities, not counties, and I would have no problem with renaming all unique county names to drop the state name - so that well known counties like Los Angeles County as well as lesser known ones like Stanislaus County or Placer County stand alone. (No doubt this opinion surprises the people with whom I have passionately contended about keeping USPLACE for cities - but it shouldn't. In fact I have often teased those people, asking them why they don't go after the county names if they are so committed to eliminating "unnecessary disambiguation", but they never responded.) --MelanieN (talk) 00:38, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Again... the issue here is how much weight to give the principle of Consistency, and how best to apply it. There are a lot US Counties names that are used in multiple states (Take a look at Essex County as a good example)... the articles on these counties need to have the State name attached to the title for disambiguation purposes. Of course, there are also many articles on counties that do not need this disambiguation (if the county has a unique name). When assessing for consistency, we have to compare the relative size of each group. If the number of articles that do need disambiguation overwhelms the number that don't need disambiguation, then we can say: "Adding the State name to all the titles (even when not needed) makes the titles more consistent." Blueboar (talk) 17:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd bet there is no data already existing about how many county names need disambiguation versus how many do not. AfricaTanz (talk) 18:04, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

For counties beginning with A, 11 need disambiguation out of 84. That's 13 percent. That does not argue for putting the state in every county name. AfricaTanz (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

For counties in California (which may not be typical), 9 out of 58 need disambiguation, or 15%. --MelanieN (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe I can gen that up with a script I wrote to aid with township disambiguation. It could easily be modified for counties and uses census data. I will try to do that this weekend. For the record, I entirely agree with Blueboar's statement about consistency. Omnedon (talk) 18:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Even given those numbers, consistency is an important issue. With such a large group of articles, I feel it would be confusing and counterproductive to name some articles in one way (County, State) and others in another way (County). I don't see how this would help either the reader or the editor. Omnedon (talk) 18:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Based on a check of California's 58 counties, it appears that all the uniquely-named counties already have a redirect page under the county name alone. Just FYI. --MelanieN (talk) 18:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

If 13 percent is beyond your threshhold, what exactly is your threshhold? AfricaTanz (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, how did you produce a list of U.S. counties starting with "A"? older ≠ wiser 19:01, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Index of U.S. counties. AfricaTanz (talk) 06:37, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. It can't be relied on for a comprehensive evaluation of ambiguity though. It omits historical counties as well as non-U.S. counties. older ≠ wiser 12:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but what we're talking about here are U.S. counties, I think. AfricaTanz (talk) 12:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the need for disambiguating U.S. counties is not limited to U.S. counties. That is, there might be only one U.S. county with a particular name, but there may be a county in another country with the same name. For example Antrim County. older ≠ wiser 14:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering this, too. If you counted 11 of 84 names that need disambiguation, that means that more than 13 percent of counties starting with "A" have the same name, since more than 11 counties have the 11 names. AgnosticAphid talk 20:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I would say the threshold would be higher than 13%... but I suspect that if you did a complete survey you would find it higher. A look at two other States shows a higher percentage...

For New York... 41 out of 62 counties (66%) need disambiguation.

For Ohio... 64 out of 88 counties (73%) need disambiguation.

It would be interesting to find out which State has the largest number counties who's names need disambituation. A lot of the duplication seems to be repeated use of the names of Founding Fathers and Revolutionary War heroes, with the names of various American Indian tribes running a close third. Blueboar (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I have downloaded the USGS data for the nation and put it into SQL. Of the 3036 entries in the database with a class of "Civil" and a name ending with " County", there are 425 names that are used at least twice. Just for fun, here are the top five:

Lincoln County: 23

Jackson County: 23

Franklin County: 24

Jefferson County: 25

Washington County: 30

A total of 1692 counties, or about 56%, would require disambiguation. Omnedon (talk) 01:04, 17 June 2013 (UTC) Separately from these statistics, I would also argue that since a county is a subdivision of a state, its official name would be (to take the initial example) "Bexar County, Texas". Yes, technically this concept could be extended to the nation, planet, solar system, et cetera -- but the existence of a county depends on the existence of a state, and counties are frequently referred to with the "County, State" form. In addition, including the name of the state better satisfies the titling requirement of conciseness, since a concise name is both short and descriptive (not just short). There are 50 states and thousands of counties, so it's not concise to simply say "Bexar County" in the context of an encyclopedia. Omnedon (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I just do not believe your 56 percent figure. For counties beginning with A and B, the statistic is nowhere close to even 25 percent. Counties, cities, etc. are all creatures of a legislative body. Why counties should be uniquely treated is very weird. Aside from that, the official name of Bexar County is just that - not Bexar County, Texas - regardless of what a county owned website might say. Of course it is more concise to say Bexar County than the alternative. One word shorter. 33 percent more concise. AfricaTanz (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton or Hillary Rodham Clinton?

Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 6 (June 2013)

RfC: WP:AURDNAME as a guideline

I would like to invite the editors here to comment on a proposal to promote WP:AURDNAME (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Australian roads) to guideline status. Please visit the WP:AURDNAME talkpage and discuss.

-- Nbound (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

for those of us not familiar with AURDNAME: WP:AURDNAME is a link to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Australian roads) -- PBS (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Suggestions on examples listed

The section of "Use commonly recognizable names" give a list of examples of article titles. These examples should be edited to included further explanation. What i mean is every example should state what this name is choose over. For example it should say;

• Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton; common name over birth name)
• Guinea pig (not: Cavia porcellus; common name over scientific name)

Also, the list should include one example of exclusion of WP:HONORIFIC's case. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)