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Welcome to Wikipedia's Intelligent Design article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic.

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great article. but maybe a little attention to specified complexity

claps and tips hat to writers and contributers.* This is one of the the most concise and coherent articles i've seen on wikipedia. great job.

however, I did not find the section on specified complexity to be very clear; perhaps some more analogies would be helpful? (unsigned comment of 09:48, 3 April 2006 by Ghaleon)

The second paragraph of Specified complexity does seem to give a more coherent explanation, and the first three sentences of that paragraph could be substituted for all but the first sentence of the first paragraph here. Though of course Dembski's concept may be an unguided collection of theological fragments thrown together by chance rather than an intelligently designed concept ;) ...dave souza, talk 11:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting news article

re evolution Jim62sch 22:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe for a "In popular culture" section

From the Q.E.D. article. I thought this was interesting because ID was used to show that God doesn't exist. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 05:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams hypothesises a dialogue between Man and God concerning whether a creature, the babel fish, which allows anyone who places it in their ear to understand any language, is too useful to have evolved purely by chance and therefore must have been divinely created.

GOD: "I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing."

MAN: "But the babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

GOD: "Oh dear; I hadn't thought of that."

Whereupon he promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

220.239.211.252

Wow, shock of all shocks, anyone care to guess where this IP is from? It's easy.
IP Address 220.239.211.252; AUSTRALIA. And the funny thing is, I've had these arguments with someone from Down Under before. Hmmm. Jim62sch 00:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sarfati and AA? One word: Spite. FeloniousMonk 04:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

==Isnt the world Flat according to Fundamentalists ? Doesnt the sun travel around the earth? This is more fundamentalist bullshit and should be identified as such. The earth is not 8000 years ago simply because you counted up all the peoples ages in the old testament end to end. Wake up world ! Its the 21st century and we have a solar system to explore, its time to get out of the middle ages ! Dem 10:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Jefffire 11:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow I doubt that irony counts as "soapboxing". Jim62sch 20:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Arch-Bish of Canterbury / ideas for Intro

hello all - I've popped up a couple of times here, and once or twice made a couple of changes. Returned recently kind of exepecting some reference to the arch bish. saying basically ID shouldn't be in schools - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4828238.stm - any ideas where it might fit?

Also - and this is a sincere, personal plea - could I ask regular editors their opinion as to the quality of the first three paragraphs as an introduction to this difficult subject. My feeling is that readability and clarity must be improved. Perhaps the archbish quote could somehow be included in a re-written second or third paragraph? - cheers, Petesmiles 08:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried inserting the arch bishop comment a couple of weeks ago, but it was reverted as 'editorializing'. I'm not quite sure what the comment means but I understand that it could be considered inappropriate, especially in the introduction. Perhaps there is a better place for it (if we mention the Arch Bishop we should mention the pope, and all other major religious leaders as well really).

As to the intro, its the same problem as all contentious introductions. Every word has been battled over repeatedly. I'm fairly satisfied with it myself, but even rewriting it for clarity without changing the meaning would require a sustained effort, with community consensus. --Davril2020 08:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ta for the link, it refers to a Guardian interview which is already cited in Theistic evolution#Anglicanism. I'll add the link to the Creation and evolution in public education page. ..dave souza, talk 16:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Inaccuracy:

In the ID in Summary section, the assertation that Evolution relies exclusively on "observed impersonal physical processes such as mutations and natural selection" would not really be accurate. Modern evolution does not solely rely on observed occurrences, as true evolution (one species changing into another) is an extremely long process and cannot be observed. This is the primary reason for such an interest in the fossil record, as well as the reason for the excitement about the coelacanth and more recently the Tiktaalik. We are of course able to observe adaptive evolution, so observation is essential, but it is not the exclusive method through which evolution is understood. Thoughts? --Coldbourne 14:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is wrong for multiple reasons. First, fossils are a record of physical processes, so they are included in the statement. Second, we have observed speciation on many occasions. For a short list of examples see Observed Examples of Speciation] at the TalkOrigins Archive. JoshuaZ 15:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I asserted fossils as an example of observation and documentation of physical processes, thus their validity is not in question. As for the speciation, observable instances of this fall more in line with an adaptive evolution element, rather than full blown Darwinian Evolution. It would seem that if there were in fact cases in which evolutionary speciation was observable, it would fundamentally undermine our understanding of gradual change over time. Regardless, my only quip was that evolution does not rely solely on observation. Much like relativity, the theory of Evolution has certain aspects that cannot be proven by observation alone. --Coldbourne 16:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean, there isn't a different between adaptive evolution and "Darwinian Evolution" you may want to read up on the Modern synthesis. Also, science is never in the business of proving things, at best it can provide overwhelming evidence. JoshuaZ 16:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And you may want to read up on Evolution, and then read you own page (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/modern-synthesis.html). I am not concerned with anything other than one word, Exclusively. It is misleading to advocate that there are not accepted tenants of Biology that are still theoretical. As for the differences, I may have caused confusion with the terminology I used, so my apologies. Specifically I was referring to the differentiation of adaptation against speciation. The former being the modification of a species phenotypes to an environment, the later being the rise of multiple species from a single ancestor. Hybridization is observable, and in some cases could arguably be instances of speciation, and so would justify the observable empirical evidence put forth in the paragraph. The mechanism of evolution still remains theory, not based exclusively on observation, and the paragraph should reflect this. --Coldbourne 21:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Something can be observed and "still remain a theory". I'm just confused as to what "still remains a theory" means. --JPotter 15:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly in reference to the many who say that evolution is science fact, instead of a scientific theory. In a way, they show the same ignorance as the creationists who say evolution is "just a theory" so it can't be taken seriously, without understanding what a theory really is. Both sides have been playing word games to try to bolster their theories, and questions like this are the inevitable result. Izuko 15:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To answer the question, you have to differentiate between two things related with evolution: "existence" of evolution and "mechanism" of evolution. For the former there is plethora of evidence (which has been observed) and hence Biologists consider it to be a fact, while, as Coldbourne pointed out that there are several theories of the mechanisms of evolution. So evolution is scientific fact, but "How did evolution occur?" is scientific theory gunslotsofguns 16:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even then, you have to differentiate between micro and macro evolution. Some people consider that a "buy one, get one free deal." Izuko 16:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guns hit it on the head, and Izuko puts it precisely in what Feynman would call "freshman Terms". I wanted to make sure that it was not implied that all of evolution is supported by observable evidence, as that is a fallacy. It needs to be kept clear that Evolution and the Mechanism of Evolution are not the same thing, and are routinely a "buy one, get one free" escapism used by both sides of the debate. It is vital to differentiate between established fact and current theory, as this misunderstanding is what usually leads to all the problems. --Coldbourne 19:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unclear as to where you are going with this one. It's true that many in this debate misunderstand what "theory" means in the scientific world (gravity is a theory but I don't know anyone who would deny it's reality), but a theory only stands until it has been shown to be false by observations. Theories are developed to explain observed data so I think it is valid to say that current theories are exclusively based on observations. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 20:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to asume you are talking about Einstein's theory of gravitation, as I would hope that you would not refer to Newton's law of universal gravitation as a theory. Let's consult The American Heritage on this one:

Theory → → A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

So we have the facts of Evolution (evolutionary adaptation) but we don't know the Who, What, When, Where, or Why. That part is the Mechanism of Evolution or modern synthesis, and still remains a conjecture. --Coldbourne 20:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

.....but still exclusively based on observations. BTW I was thinking a little broader (gravitation).Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 21:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The modern evolution synthesis is a theory that explains nature, as all theories do. How does that equate to conjecture? It's a fallacy to presume there is more evidence for universal common ancestry than there is for natural selection. --JPotter 00:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Who: Organisms or species, depending on the context. What: Genetic mutations proliferating. When: Mitosis (unicellular)/Meiosis (multicellular), if looked at on the order of individuals. Genetic drift, bottlenecks, founder effect, etc if looked at on the level of populations. Where: Inside the dividing cell (individuals) or within the breeding pool (population). Why: This is the one that's actually's under some debate. But it appears that, no matter what else may cause mutations, the machinery screws up sometimes.

Perhaps you should rephrase that statement. Ladlergo 01:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Conjecture→ → reasoning that involves the formation of conclusions from incomplete evidence. This is an accurate description of our current understanding. Look, to save me from having to keep repeating this, read the wiki article on Evolution and follow up with the FAQ on Talk.Origins. Our current understanding of evolution is two-fold, the fact and the theory. This is well known, I am not advocating any POV with this. --Coldbourne 00:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing between fact and theory is a bit artificial in the context of these discussions. See for example the section in the creation-evolution controversy article. --ScienceApologist 11:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no artificiality in this concept, and to deny that science has to hypothesis about concepts that are not detectable in a laboratory is shear idiocy. Furthermore, to consistently push the POV that science relies solely on uncontested facts is nothing short of lunacy and displays a total disregard for fields such as Theoretical Physics. If such was the case, then absolutely no progress would be made in any field. Hypothesis is the backbone of the scientific method. Furthermore it is MY Conjecture that such scientism laden ravings by dogmatic individuals are the reason that idiots such as creationists can question such well established methods of scientific research. This entire dispute has blossomed out of me wanting to change one word "Exclusively" to "Primarily" as it would fit the context of the statement more accurately. Yet as tends to happen on any polarized wikiarticle, the moment I question ANYTHING regarding either side of the debate, I am then immediately set upon. As far as I am concerned, my entire statement was understood halfway through this little tirade by the user Gunslotsofguns. Micro evolution and Macro Evolution are two tenants of Evolution. One is observed and considered fact; the other can not really be observed at this present time but is still considered very likely. Yet rather than say "ah, I see where you are coming from" or even "Let's discuss the grammatical aspects of this", I am attacked as some sort of bloody creationist. If I am guilty of anything it is being a grammar Nazi, and of becoming frustrated when people do not understand Evolution. From the ongoing debate it is likely that none of you have decided to read through the articles I listed for your convenience. Talk.Origins is hardly an ID site; as a matter of fact I would list it as the antithesis of the Id movement. Wikipedia is what it is, yet I would argue that the evolution article is extremely well done, and you could bet your sweet butt that it has not been allowed to be skewed in any ID direction. As for the intellect that decided to post a large red tag to the current section, unless I am mistaken Mainstream Biological Science is the field of study that deals with evolution, yes? Don't show your ignorance of the topic and lack of discussion ability by lading the talk page with graffiti. If any of you are still unclear on my motivation and the reasons for my initial suggestion, please state so I will be more than happy to continue to clear up this new inquisition. But be forewarned, I am a keeper of the deplorable word "Ni", and I am not afraid to use it. Now bring me a shrubbery. Regards. --Coldbourne 14:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! Maybe we could use a phrase such a "grounded in" or some form to show the primacy of observations to science. "Primarily" gives the impression that other things can be considered equal to this but as you have articulately demonstrated above (!) you know that observational data is the core of all theories and although they may take flights of fancy sometimes they are discounted the moment they are disproved by experimentation. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 15:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh venerable Knight of Ni aka grammar nazi, you articulate your point well. However you must also consider that us poor "evolutionists" ;) have to sometimes go overboard and use words like "Exclusively". However though this (i.e. exclusively) might be considered misleading, might not "primarily" be considered tautological. The impugned sentence already says mainstream biology. Might I suggest not using either word. gunslotsofguns 15:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, well at least I did not have to resort to "Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-p'tang-zoo-boing-goodem-zu-owly-zhiv!". : ) Either idea sounds good to me, whatever floats everybody's monkey. --Coldbourne 01:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tiz done - though I went for the easy option of deleting exclusively. Now about that shrubbery.....Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 08:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At least nobody had to resort to "Peng". Or "Nuuuuu-wom". - FlyingOrca 12:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still clueless

I do not think this article particularly the summary helps to explain an standard definition of what Intelligent Design is, I feel that it is very hard to understand, I don’t think I’m asking to much if you at least attempt to dumb it down a little into lumens terms, also the references in the summary(beginning/introduction) should be deleted they are not helping any, I think most people will agree that it is articles like these that give wikipedia the reputation of being unreadable. Jamie-planetx 00:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems ok to me as a definition of a shifty subject, and is the outcome of a lot of argument between interested parties. However, here's an informal simplification. ID is the claim to have found a scientific theory or scientific evidence showing complexity or improbability in nature that can only be explained by intelligent supernatural intervention. Said designer need not be God, but fits His job description. As "science" it is unusual in undertaking no research or peer reviewed publication, but confines itself to websites, press releases and books. 99% or more of scientists dismiss it as pseudoscience, and a judge's detailed legal assessment of it is that it is not science, and cannot disentangle itself from its creationist roots. Its leading biologist accepts evolution by natural selection for all but certain features which he's not bothered to keep up with scientific research on. but a lot of creationists seem to think it's a decisive refutation of evolution. Coming soon to a movie near you. ...dave souza, talk 23:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That sums it up for me. Pasado 05:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ok so, upon evidence that there is so many things science can't yet or can never explain, is prove that that god/a larger being exists and is the creator of him/her/itself, ADDED upon further research:- and to think all i had to do was look at the main definition in urban dictionary. Jamie-planetx 22:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Am I the only YEC that is patently offended by this "intelligent design" nonsense? Seriously, "Said designer need not be God, but fits His job description." I know that accurately describes what many ID proponents believe, but I can't figure out why they feel the need to go through all this circumlocution. Why not just say it how it is? "God the Father created the universe and designed everything." What's all the fuss about? El Cubano 22:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Considering many of us are not Young Earth Creationists, and they you guys are wrong, probably. In fact, I'm kind of guessing that there aren't many YECs here. Izuko 23:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Perhaps a less confrontational phrasing of the question would be, "Is ID supposed to have a pseudo-secular feel to it? Doesn't this offend other believers as sort of denying God's role in order to sneak this in somewhere?" I guess it is just a bit of a philosophical question. El Cubano 23:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not supposed to be pseudo-secular. It's supposed to be secular. Yes, most of its adherents are religious, but the idea is that the theory, itself, not be. Izuko 23:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying. El Cubano 00:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Improbably enough...

The following weird stuff was added by 86.141.113.40

Nevertheless pointing out the 'unlikelihood' of a scenario does not makes the 'unlikelihood 'argument meaningless. To sum up we can not forget that a theory is scientific unless is falsiable and can not be an absolute theory is if it's discredited, so evolution theory has evolved a lot since Darwin's days. The question is whether an alternative view of origins is acceptable? In all possible answers to this question one can not logically rule out the question in itself simple because is evolution is a better proved view. According to Karl Popper's method one scientific theory is never definitive, especially ehen is falsified.

The whole section doesn't seem up to the usual standard, and this certainly doesn't add clarity..dave souza, talk 00:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch - what was he on at the time? Sophia ^Gilraen ^{of Dorthonion} 13:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revert explanation

I removed the following addition: "Interestingly, however, greater scientists, such as Albert Einstein[7] and Isaac Newton[8], expressly stated belief in or admiration for a divine designer", for several reasons. One, a personal belief by a scientist does not make a concept scientific. Two, such assertions should be referenced. Wikipedia articles are inadequate as sources. Three, the referenced Wikipedia articles do not support the claim implied here; no mention is made of any belief that an intelligent designer directly created individual life forms instead of the scientific explanation that lifeforms evolved over time. I see no mention of their views on intelligent design nor that they were even aware of such a concept. Four, such additions are probably best first discussed on the talk page. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've pointed out on User talk:66.245.212.98 that reliable source states that "Wikipedia itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines", and that Wikipedia:No original research#What is excluded? prohibits introduction of an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source. As "Example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" then shows, your claim of support of historic figures for ID is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article, which is modern ID, not theism. ...dave souza, talk 06:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is the implication of the anon users' edits here, that because scientists today immediately see through the charade in reasoning and even fraudulent tactics of the ID movement, that they are necessarily atheists?? Newton found his faith in the scriptures, and never pretended that his calculus proved the existence of an intelligent designer. It would appear that he clearly understood the difference between his faith and his science (i.e. Natural philosophy). Einstein is even more interesting (without getting into the details here) because when he attempted to apply "God" (i.e. intelligent designer) to his physics, he made his two biggest self-admitted mistakes as a leading scientist (his refusal to accept that the universe is expanding, resulting in his fudging of general relativity with the cosmological constant, and his refusal to accept the Uncertainty Principle-- the famous "God does not play dice" mistake). Science has been through this many times before, and every time a few sceintists (or "natural philosophers") fall into this kind of trap, a number of religious apologists seem to latch onto it and parade it as "proof" of their religious views, and unfortunately are usually dead and gone by the time their ideological descendents are thoroughly proven to be fools. That, among many other reasons, is why a number of prominent scientists find the teleological argument compelling, but generally are wise enough not to confuse it with their science and think they have finally found the proof... Kenosis 06:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, Einstein wasn't really religious in this sense at all. His "god" was "nature". His article discusses this at some length. Cheers, --Plumbago 11:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. Note carefully that I put quote marks on "God" above, but it was Einstein himself who stated the term "God" in his famous statement about quantum mechanics. Einstein plainly meant to say something more than "Nature does not play dice." My main point above being that he plainly had a sense or preconception of the ultimate, which, when he brought it directly to bear on the mechanics of his analysis, was a primary driving conceptual force behind his behind his two most prominent mistakes. Newton I didn't really get into describing either, because he had an extremely mystical orientation. But both of these great thinkers knew better than anyone to use an empirical "method" in their work. When Einstein failed to to so, he erred. That was my primary point. A whole book's worth of material here after all the further parsing is done.

I also neglected to mention, among numerous other closely related issues, that both Newton's and Einstein's work led somewhere for other scientists, as opposed to being a cheap attempted hijacking of the science classroom in order to foist a bunch of tautological garbage upon the next generation. Cheers indeed...Kenosis 14:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, as Kenosis and Plumbago point out our anon friend here misunderstands Einstein's viewpoint and the relevance of Newton. Neither belong in the article. FeloniousMonk 14:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

!!!

Sorry for ranting, but this is a very Middle Age type theory. I mean, this is theology, it is neither philosophy nor empirical science. Evolution in no way denies god, if you believe in god of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mailrobot (talk • contribs)

Quite right, many evangelicals clearly want to drag everyone into the Middle Ages, and a new reality in which Roman Catholics are atheists. Welcome! ..dave souza, talk 08:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Broken wiki-link

The last of the see also links is Wikisource:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District et. al. memorandum, which doesn't appear to lead to anything. Perhaps someone familiar with the document might be able to correct the link? — Knowledge Seeker দ 20:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorted. ..dave souza, talk 22:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Pseudoscience

Meant to say in edit summary that Category:ID is a subcat of Category:Pseudoscience, which itself is overcrowded, so in accordance with guidelines ID shouldn't have Category:Pseudoscience applied to the individual article as well. But pressed the wrong button and saved the page first. Well, everyone please note anyway. ..dave souza, talk 08:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other Countries

Is intelligent design a concept in countries outside the U.S.? If so, it'd be interesting to have a section discussing how people in other countries respond to it. --Whitenoise101 17:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recent anon edits

FWIW, in reverse order of recent anon edits to this article:

68.55.31.179 (talk · contribs), aka the md.comcast.net anon near Bel Air, MD; added NPOV flag without explanation.
165.138.249.251 (talk · contribs), aka the Indiana Higher Education Telecommunication System anon possibly near Richmond, IN; added silly editorial.
24.213.249.236 (talk · contribs), aka the Oneonta Road Runner anon possibly near Oneonta, NY; weird deletion.
66.238.170.33 (talk · contribs), aka the dpspxy3.detroit.k12.mi.us anon, apparently near Livonia, MI; mass deletion.
131.109.73.2 (talk · contribs), aka the Rhode Island Network for Educational Technology anon, apparently near Providence, RI; added silly editorial (and deleted the ip anon user talk page someone added!).
67.53.32.14 (talk · contribs), aka the Westminster Road Runner anon possibly near Westminster, CA; silly addition.
146.186.152.39 (talk · contribs), aka the Penn state anon in State College, PA; probably acceptable edit (but it was reverted regardless).

This seems consistent with more extensive surveys suggesting that the ratio inappropriate to useful anon edits run at something like five to one, or even higher. ---CH 22:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discovery Institute POV

Old intro:

Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."

My proposed version:

Intelligent design (ID), as defined by the Discovery Institute, is an idea which "holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." (See Argument from design.)

As corrected by Kim:

Intelligent design (ID), as defined by the Discovery Institute, is an idea which "holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." (See Argument from design.)

Main difference is that I'm attributing this particular definition to one source, namely, the Discovery Institute. There may be other definitions. We should be clear exactly whose definition it is, which this article describes in each case.

I also took out all the links, because I'm not sure that each of them goes to articles whose topics are about exactly what the words in the definition mean. Okay, "universe" is not too bad - but in general a crucial quote should not be studded with links. I don't know why "living things" needs a link to the Life article.

And I completely disagree with the idea of having "intelligent cause" link to Argument from design. Rather, it should link to whatever cause ID supporters like the D.I. posit for the designer. If they don't posit one, then the link is misleading on that score alone. I preserved the link as a "see"-type link, in parenthesis, because it will be interesting for readers to compare the two concepts: (1) Intelligent Design Theory, and (2) Argument from design. I think we all know that there are significant differences between the two and significant similarities. Let's not blur the distinctions or exaggerate the similarities, okay? --Uncle Ed 20:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"There may be other definitions" Find one related to the subject at hand. Jim62sch 23:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for restoring natural selection. I missed that one! Anyone using that term has to mean the same thing. It's a well-understood, uncontroversial term. Good catch, user:KimvdLinde. --Uncle Ed 20:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Humm, I am not so sure about uncontroversial, but that is more about the to many different definitions that are used by scientists who depending in their own background can mean very different things with it.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean that the concept is uncontroversial - 45% of Americans flatly deny it, on religious grounds. I mean only that there is no significant disagreement about the definition of the term. --Uncle Ed 20:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How many of public that believes in it is irrelevant. ID claims to be a scientific theory. It is in the realm of science and science education that ID is controversial, but there is also no shortage of controversy in the courts as well. This has already been settled, Ed, read the archives before resurrecting previously settled issues. FeloniousMonk 21:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, have a look at the talk page of Natural selection, there is actually, which made the rewrite of the article so difficult. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um, no. What part of all leading ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute don't you understand? There are no other prominent proponents with alternate definitions of ID that are notable enough to warrant a change to the intro. The long-standing intro is accurate and well-supported as it is and there's been no recent developments to justify changing it. FeloniousMonk 20:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One day, I'm sure I'll figure out why this needs to be rehashed every few months. For the nonce, rather than ascribing motive (which is "bad"), I'll just assume a general diminution or absence of cognitive and comprehension-related attributes. Jim62sch 23:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Atheism, ID, and belief in God

I just followed the link from Argument from design (which redirects to Teleological argument) and found this in the first sentence:

A teleological argument (or a design argument) is an argument for the existence of God

So linking the words "intelligent cause" to Argument from design is really the same as linking "intelligent cause" to Teleological argument. I suppose whoever made that link believes that the ID movement is using the evolution issue (and ID itself?) to argue for the existence of God. If so, that would explain why the issue is such a political hot button, as well as why it has been difficult to avoid edit wars at Wikipedia about the matter.

If anyone tries to make the evolution issue into a binary, either-or dilemma, all kinds of hell will break loose:

evolution is true, and atheism is true; or,
evoultion is false, and God exists

I'm not sure this is the kind of debate scientists want to be part of - although there are a few lone (and very famous!) exceptions. But I know that this is the sort of dilemma, if accepted on these terms, must lead to endless fractious political debate. It's the Scopes Trial all over again, isn't it?

I only bring this up to inquire whether ID is seen as fomenting this kind of debate and dilemma. Is this what the D.I.'s "Teach the Controversy" campaign is intended to do? --Uncle Ed 20:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some indeed make this binary distinction, other do not argue this. Neo-Creationist like the binary, as do people like Dennet and Dawkins. However, I think it is a false dichotomy and we just have to loose a lot with that. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The documented relationships are that Teach the Controversy is a stalking horse ID while ID is a stalking horse for Theistic Realism. Theistic Realism, if wedged into the academy, would allow for a science that rejects naturalism and is consonant with Biblical revelation which will in turn lead to "cultural renewal" (whatever that means). Read the Wedge Document.

Johnson and the rest of DI gang knew they couldn't just get TR to be accepted, so they took the long-term view that getting ID into HS science education would bring a new generation, some of whom would end up in science proper, receptive to supernatural explanations. After seeing that ID was not making the inroads into HS science classrooms (due to legal obstacles) and academic circles they hoped, Teaching the Controversy would at least get them started undermining evolution and science's methodological basis. FeloniousMonk 21:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is already evolving towards a new type, nd that is not so muc teach the controversy (which is not really working as well), but to teach critisism to evolution (with which they imply the usual stuff). O well, so much for evolution in action. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 00:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "survival of the fittest" (which, as we know, is not Darwin's quote, but that of Herbert Spencer) applies to mental faculties. Although, regression to the mean might cover it. Jim62sch 20:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unilateral revert

Barely one minute after leaving his comment above, FeloniousMonk decided on his own to revert the combined work of me and Kim. I would have preferred you gave us some time to respond before deciding the matter on your own. --Uncle Ed 21:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in a way, this could also be said of your change, and I think the discussion should be solved here. As far as I can see, the existing intro is supported by many, and I doubt if the new one will be supported by many as well. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is typical behavior for Ed, who is not up to speed on things ID and has a long history of promoting the creationist POV. He'll try to tie us up with tendentious debate over minor points while ignoring supporting cites and uncomfortable facts. Ed can and should expect to be further reverted if he continues to try to force his POV and the issue here. FeloniousMonk 21:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from personal remarks such as

typical behavior for Ed
not up to speed
long history of promoting the creationist POV

The 3rd dig is especially bad because you know it's not true. I'm consistently on record as opposing creationism. You and others will no doubt recall that one of the reasons I've given for opposing creationism is its refusal to accept the fossil record. So not only are your remarks uncivil (and thus a violation of Wikipedia policy), they are untrue as well. Continuing to violate WP:CIVIL or to say untrue things about other Wikipedians will only get you in trouble. But I'm willing to accept your apology. --Uncle Ed 13:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Saying untrue things about yourself only hurts your credibility, not that of others. Your contributions speak for themselves; your record shows you've invariably edited from the creationist perspective. Claiming otherwise does not help your case, but perhaps is explainable as your idea of "turning over a new leaf" as you claim you've done.

You've made sweeping changes with no discussion, and when they're reverted, you say "repeating my request to discuss sweeping reverts in talk FIRST." You've got it exactly backwards, Ed. It's you who should be discussing any sweeping changes in talk first. Failing to do so and edit warring is simple disruption. Your method here has been to toss out an objection or suggestion and quickly make the change before any discussion takes place, and then edit warring when there's no support for your misbegotten changes.

So far, when your objections or suggestions are discussed they've been shown to be in error. But you just ignore the evidence given and restore your factually-challenged removed changes and goi right up to the 3RR limit in so doing, then imply you'll be back at it tomorrow. Again, disruption.

Ed, you're clearly ignoring WP:POINT. The article has been stable for some time prior to your arrival, Ed. Editors knowledgeable on the topic will continue to discuss any proposed changes to the article, but they'll also continue to revert any inaccurate, improper or unilateral changes. FeloniousMonk 17:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current intro has been debated and yet still stands as accurate. Ed - Archives. Jim62sch 23:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revising the intro

No comments having been made on my changes other than "has been debated", I have continued to revise the intro. I haven't seen any vote whose result said that the intro must no longer be revised.

I welcome discussion on these further changes. --Uncle Ed 16:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think we first have to discuss the changes you just made as I think they are not an improvement. So, why did you make specific changes? WOuld you care to explain them? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 16:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Which change(s) do you object to? --Uncle Ed 16:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have rewritten it so completly that it is difficult for me to point out the many differences, but lets start with why it had to be rewritten in the first place? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 16:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm puzzled by your (i.e. Ed Poor's) opening sentence Intelligent design (ID), as defined by the Discovery Institute, is an idea... What about intelligent design as defined by Joan Schmone? This is a very strange way of starting an article. --CSTAR 16:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why was something that had no reason to be rewritten, rewritten? One would need to ascribe motives to answer that, and, as we all know, ascribing motives is baaaad. Jim62sch 20:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't choose that quote, I'm just attributing it to its source. Please say more about Joan Schmone's ideas. I've never heard of her, and there's no Wikipedia article about her.

Are you saying there's a more general definition than the D.I.'s that you prefer? I'd love to see it! --Uncle Ed 16:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well then how about Joe Schmoe? And if there are no other definitions, Joe Schmoe or Joan Schmone than why do attribute it to the DI? --CSTAR 17:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard that John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt has one. Jim62sch 20:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think articles should start out with a definition of the term by a highly biased party. The abortion article doesn't start off with .. "As defined by Pat Robertson, abortion is the act of a mother murdering her unborn child..." No, it has a neutral scientific lead-in. That's what this article needs too. It needs a neutral definition of what intelligent design actually is, not what a biased thinktank group wishes it to be. There's even established case law on the subject we can refer to (see the Fitzmiller case) that clearly established intelligent design as having religious motivations. --Cyde↔Weys 20:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Orr quote

Orr wrote:

"Biologists aren’t alarmed by intelligent design’s arrival in Dover and elsewhere because they have all sworn allegiance to atheistic materialism; they’re alarmed because intelligent design is junk science."

I put that into the footnote in the intro because I had to click on the link and then hunt for the phrase "junk science" to find the whole quote. Having the quote also tells the reader which scientists call ID junk science, and why. Orr's quote has a bearing on the "motivations" aspect of the Creation-evolution debate of which ID is such an integral part.

Is this explanation enough? I can explain each of the others as well, if needed. --Uncle Ed 16:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do, intro's are summaries of the article, not the place to make individual points, you already know this. WP:POINT.

Ed, you really need to stop making unilateral changes to the article and seek consensus here first. You're being disruptive. FeloniousMonk 16:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? I'm not familiar with the concept of "making an individual point"? Can you give me an example of one I've made? It would help if you would explain what you object to, specifically, before accusing me of things like "being disruptive". Unless, of course, you have some sort of special authority. --Uncle Ed 16:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, you are being disruptive because 1) you are making major changes to the article without consulting any of the other editors on the talk page and 2) said editors have already come to an agreement about how to best maintain neutrality of the article. Ladlergo 19:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. We've worked long and hard on this article, and to have someone come in half-cocked and make sustantial changes that a)go against everything we have done, and b) have already been discussed and ruled out for a variety of reasons is disruptive. As I noted earlier, Ed, read the archives.

FeloniousMonk Revert

For the third time, user:FeloniousMonk reverted changes to his preferred version:

ignoring my request to give reasons on the talk page
deleting additional changes made since his previous revert

I've created an extra section for this, so I don't cause an edit conflict here on the talk page, in case FeloniousMonk is busy describing the reasons for his revert.

In the edit summary he wrote:

rv No consensus. Discuss and make your case for changes first, then make your changes

I don't know what this means, especially in light of three reverts by FeloniousMonk without making a case for them before *or* after. Surely this is not an assertion that he "owns the page". Is it perhaps a claim that no one may edit the intro, no matter how small the change, without gaining consensus beforehand? I didn't see any such notice in the article or on the discussion page. --Uncle Ed 16:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, Ed it's the accurate, consensus version .— Dunc|☺ 17:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph statement Ed wants to insert lacks clarity, specificity, and context. It is highly inappropriate to make such sweeping statements in articles of controversial nature. --ScienceApologist 17:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I do not see the changes made by Ed as an improvement as well. As far as I can see, nobody except Ed are in favour of the changes, so the indication of FeloniousMonk in the edit summary of no consensus for the change is accurate as far as I can see. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed has put his finger on exactly what is wrong with this article, and the reaction here only underscores his point. The addition of one sentence on the views of proponents of intelligent design from their own perspective, rather than as characterized by their opponents is here seen as something that must be reverted immediately and Ed must be accused of disrupting Wikipedia. Ed's addition should stay in the article. — goethean ॐ 17:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the reason people object to Ed's prose. The objection is based on making sweeping generalities and are of limited utility for an article which is very clear in making specific distinctions. --ScienceApologist 17:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Then there's also the issue of his method, shoot first, edit war later, discuss only if forced. FeloniousMonk 17:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...otherwise known as 'editing a wiki.' — goethean ॐ 17:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that's called being disruptive. A distinction lost on some. FeloniousMonk 17:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The edit warring – which takes two opposing sides in order to take place – can legitimately be called disruptive. Editing is still allowed on most articles without being threatened with disciplinary action. — goethean ॐ 18:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to chronic troublemakers by restoring improperly removed long-standing, accurate content that enjoys both first-rate cites and strong support is a response to disruption, not disruption itself, and supported by policy and convention. Claiming a response to disruption is disruption is like claiming treatment of cancer is itself a disease. FeloniousMonk 18:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to being name-calling, that doesn't resemble what I claimed. It is you who throws out the disruption charge whenever you encounter something you don't like. — goethean ॐ 18:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the edit history of Ed in this article. It has the features FM describes. I don't think that it is a carelessly-applied charge since the editor in question has a history of disruption. --ScienceApologist 18:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The word "disruption" is being bandied about so much around here, it has lost all meaning. I'll just assume that it means "things you dont like". — goethean ॐ 18:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Goethean, we consider it to be a disruptive activity because many of the editors of this article have already debated this and consider the current article to be appropriate. By making major changes without first discussing them, Ed is ignoring the bulk of the major editors and their compromise. Ladlergo 19:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's a pretty sassy attitude, Goethean. Of course, you do have a history of responding in such fashion. --ScienceApologist 19:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oooooh, this looks like fun. I can't say I really understand the value of the proposed added sentence though. It's already covered in more depth elsewhere in the article, but Ed isn't trying to put it into the introduction, but rather, just somewhere randomly in the article. I'm not sure I understand the purpose. --Cyde↔Weys 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does, Cyde (look like fun). ;) The purpose, of course, is merely to get the proposed sentence into the article. Somewhere. Anywhere. Coherence be damned. Jim62sch 20:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering if FeloniousMonk is trying to further an agenda. The removal of the link to [1] has me scratching my head. Nobel Laureates in the sciences are considered some of the most well known scientific minds in the world. How can their views on Intelligent Design be considered a "minor viewpoint, not notable." That really has me baffled. That would be like calling the dissenting opining of a Supreme Court Justice minor and not notable. What gives? El Cubano 04:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, 1) it's primarily not in English, and what english is present is attrocious, 2) Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig is not one of the more notable ID proponents. We agreed long ago the article is bloated as it is, and will cover only notable viewpoints, per WP:NPOV, 3) Many of those on the list he compiled in no way supported ID, Richard Feynman for example. This list contains a lot of quote mining, and so is of dubious value, it's an attempt at matching the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity Nobel Laureates Initiative.[2] The link added nothing to the article. Also, I'd appreciate it if you would not question my motives moving forward. FeloniousMonk 04:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why the quick revert?

I tried to edit the page to correct what seemed to me to be a self-contradictory statement under the section titled "ID Controversy." The sentence:

"However, there is no such controversy"

NPOV aside, seems silly to say "there is no such controversy" under a section designed to explain the controversy. Like them or not, IDers are scientists (many have advanced science degrees from reputable institutions and have published in peer review journals), and so their positions preclude any notions of "consensus."

I suspect the original authors of the sentence were really trying to say either 1. IDers are not part of the scientific community, or 2. ID is not really science, or something else to that effect. I made what I thought was fair change. It was quickly reverted by, of all people, an evolutionary biologist. 12.208.138.166 (talk · contribs)

I love how up in arms ID opponents get over the issue -- if it so silly, akin to the spagetthi and meatball monster theory -- why is ID so vigorously attacked. Why do anti-IDers feel the need to monitor the ID wiki and remove any changes that weaken their criticisms? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.208.138.166 (talk • contribs)

I made the reverts. The reason is that you assert something to be happening in the science field that scientists who look for can not find. This was very well demonstrated in the Kitzmiller case were they had to present their evidence, and they could not produce anything. I am prefectly happy if it turns out that between that case and now, there has been publications that provide evidence for that controversy in Science, but untill then, it is nothing ore than a public opinion that such a controvesy exists. I think I have as much right to judge information on its quality as anybody else, wikipedia works with verifiable and reliable sources, not with personal opinion. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 12:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anon: "there is no such controversy" refers to this: "...convincing the general public that there is a debate among scientists about whether life evolved..." To clarify this point, I have modified the sentence you felt was contraictory to, "However, there is no such debate, thus there is no such controversy; the scientific consensus is that life evolved". Jim62sch 10:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And just to point the obvious, the few IDers with scientific credentials have failed to publish any research on ID in peer reviewed journals, or indeed elsewhere. The controversy is outside science, in politics and religion. ..dave souza, talk 11:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dave, this is an assertion that whatever is excluded from scientific journals is by definition not "science" just as newspaper publishers reserve the write to spike a story on the grounds that "news is whatever we deem newsworthy".

You may perhaps be aware of the contention of some scientists that scientific journals sometimes reject an article for reasons other than failing peer review. They have given reasons such as "not of interest" (article which passed peer review but contradicted the prevailing orthodoxy on global warming); "presents a problem we can't solve" (peer-reviewed article showing disparities between two groups in educational and vocational success).

Not to mention the whole history of scientists whose work was dismissed (and reputations besmirched) until decades later their colleagues were finally willing to take a look - did an about face, and had to suffer the embarassment of crediting the original researcher for the discovery. Continental drift comes to mind, although the story of Semmelweis and childbed fever is more dramatic.

His observations went against the current scientific opinion of the time, which blamed diseases (among other quite odd causes) on an imbalance of the basic "four humours" in the body, a theory known as dyscrasia. It was also "argued" that even if his findings were correct, washing one's hands each time before treating a pregnant woman, as Semmelweis advised, would be too much work. Nor were doctors eager to admit that they had caused so many deaths. (Source: Semmelweis#Rejection_by_the_medical_establishment) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) May 29 (UTC)

Dave said "failed to publish any research on ID in peer reviewed journals, or indeed elsewhere". Not only have they not published research in ID journals, they haven't published them in their own, in-house journals. They have published review articles, but no research papers. Even if this alleged conspiracy of journals against ID were real (something I very strongly doubt), why not publish in their own in-house publications? Why not publish online? There are all sorts of people working on the fringes of science who claim to be marginalised by mainstream science (for example, our own experience with aetherometry). These people publish their experiments all the time. In a world of desktop publishing and the internet, the only excuse for not publishing is not having anything to publish. If the proponents of ID cannot come up with research programmes in their pet topic, then it seems rather a long shot to ask other people to consider their ideas to be science. Guettarda 13:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guetterda, this is an excellent question. And I have not seen the answer in any Wikipedia article, so I hope you can help me find the answer.

Are you saying that ID proponents don't publish anything but reviews of "real" journal articles? Or that the contents of their books, article and web sites don't amount to "research"? I seem to recall reading something about one-celled creatures (flagocytes or flagellents?) with an argument that they wavy parts could not have developed through random variations.

By the way, I'm not arguing with you: not asserting that they did or did not "publish any research on ID ... anywhere" (as Dave said). I'm not that familiar with the literature in the field. If they haven't then the fact that they have not should DEFINITELY go into the article (and not merely as a "point of view" by ID critics!). --Uncle Ed 14:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gentlemen, not so negative. I am sure Mr Anonymous can provide articles in a relevant and reputable scientific journals in which relevant scientists (historians or legal scholars, are scientists but somehow I don't think they qualify) are debating this. Heck, if he insists there is a controversy he must have an article to prove it. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 12:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think the changes since my post have made the sentence more fair, but I still think its incorrect to claim "consensus" on such a controversial issue. My original proposal, which said something to the effect of "the majority in the scientific community reject ID", is more respectful of ID proponents (something I believe Nescio is not prepared to be). One responder to my post had the decency to acknowledge at least "a few IDers with scientific credentials." If we can agree that those "few" exist, then we could agree that there is no consensus. If "the controversy is outside science" then what are all you "real" scientists doing here commenting on something that is outside of your field, monitoring this page on a minute-to-minute basis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rbones (talk • contribs) May 27 (UTC)

Those few exist, but that leaves unchallanged that those few have even produced less proof, basically zero. Challenges are not done by opinions, but by arguments, and those are published in peer reviewed scientific journals. So, please, keep the distinction between science facts and scientists' opinions seperate. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[edit conflict] There is no conflict between the statement that the scientific community rejects ID and the fact that some ID proponents have scientific credentials. To begin with, "the majority" can be anything above 50%, so "the majority" gives ID too much weight - among active scientists, there is trivial support for ID. But "the scientific community" is not a head count of scientists - the rejection comes in the fact that ID has made no impact on the literature. No one, not even ID proponents, have come up with a research programme into ID. There is no experimental literature (including in-house DI pubs) with respect to ID. This lack of presence amounts to rejection of ID by the scientific community, by scientists working as scientists. The statement is, thus, accurate. Guettarda 18:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether there is a controversy and whether one position has sufficient literature support are two different questions. Arguments are not the exclusive domain of mainstream journal; its no surprise that ID arguments, which reject naturalism, are not published in journals that assume naturalistic positions from the outset. Consisent with the anti-ID bias of this wiki, alternatives to naturalism are curtly dismissed as being a "demarcation problem." The notion of NPOV is a joke here, and by "joke" I mean "funny," because I think its funny that you ID opponents are so threatened that you monitor this page by the minute and revert anything that neutralizes this page. 12.208.138.166 (talk · contribs)

There is no notable controversy over the validity of evolution in the scientific community. Period. There's zero credible, non-partisan evidence that one exists. But there are over 70 scientific societies, institutions and other professional groups have issued statements endorsing evolution, supporting evolution education, and opposing intelligent design. FeloniousMonk 01:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am puzzled by Mr Anonymous. He insists ID is science, or at least there is controversy among scientist about it, but when confronted with the parameters the scientific community uses he calls enforcing these rules anti-ID. Why do we need to change the rules science has adopted centuries ago?

Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some of us here are making a false dichotomy, implying that there is either:

a controversy within scientific circles (raging throughout all the journals); or,
a consensus on the matter

The excluded middle here is that there is a dispute (however tiny) between some (what's the phrase?) "credentialed scientists" and the establishment over evolution by natural selection and Intelligent design.

It would do our readers a service if we could tell them how extensive (or tiny!) this dispute is. Are their 10,000 biologists (in, say, America and the UK) who support the neo-Darwinian synthesis and only 20 who oppose it? That is, 99.8% support and 0.2% oppose? That's not much of a controversy, in itself. The only way there could be a controversy is if holders of opposing views are talking or publishing ideas which contravene (directly go against? rebut?) their opponents?

Now we all know there is a campaign to get ID considered "scientific" - called, optimistically, "Teach the controversy" - but it takes two sides to make a controversy. If the "scientific side" (as some here put it) is simply ignoring the "pseudoscientific side" then, of course, there is no controversy!

Either scientists are debating the issue a lot (a genuine scientific controversy, or barely at all (other than an occasional dismissive reply to the campaign to raise the issue), or are completely ignoring it (as astronomers and physicists ignore the idea of a flat earth).

At the top of this section, Unsigned wrote of ID so vigorously attacked. Is this attack:

non-existent (or only within Wikipedia)
only political (Bush and holy rollers vs. the courts)
also from scientists?

If it's only political, fine. The intro should clearly state that the controversy is strictly a political one.

If scientists have joined the fray, even to barely noticeable degree, then there is some scientific dispute:

a few wacky (or fanatical) PhD-holders shouting "ID is worthy of scientific consideration!"; versus,
even fewer Real Scientists saying, "Nonsense, the whole thing is pseudoscience."

However, let's be careful. We mustn't go so far as to argue that if there's a scientific dispute (over whether ID is "science") then this means that ID is science! Not only is that false reasoning, but it would be original research. We contributors are not supposed to be thinking up stuff on our own, but only reporting and describing the work or others. --Uncle Ed 13:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, amazing that the real cause of the non-controversy isn't mentioned -- religion and a need for Biblical inerrancy. As for the rest, the arguments raised are so flawed, so illogical, that to call them "arguments" is an act of kindness. Jim62sch 00:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ed, at last some intellectual honesty - as a correlate to Ed's suggestion: I think it does a *disservice* to not recognize the dispute-- no matter how small the minority is -- in an article about the minority position. As for my vigorous attack comment - that was based on the fact that it took TWO minutes before my slight modification was reverted. My opinion is that ID is attacked on all the fronts you mentioned: here on wiki as was demonstrated in my failed attempt to balance the article, in politics (ie. pointy heads running to the courts when they can't convince the majority through normal democratic means), and most of all from scientists. You can't give me a laundry list of scientific organizations who have come out with positions statements against ID and yet claim that scientists are ignoring the issue or completely ignoring it. I also think its silly to try to cast the question of the origin life as being a political one: I am of the opinion that truth is absolute. Either evolution is right or its wrong. Either ID is right or its wrong. Regardless, so long as *some* educated people dismiss evolution as insufficient, there will be a controversy.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.208.138.166 (talk • contribs)

Uh, yeah, right. You are, I'm sure, aware that your argumentum ad verecundiam is a fallacy, yes? Jim62sch 00:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A recent addition I reverted

The following change was made to the lead:

Current: Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."

and it was changed to:

Proposed: Intelligent design (ID) is the assertion that an intelligent designer designed and then created the universe, including the ancestors of the organisms that currently inhabit Earth. Some proponents of intelligent design hold the opinion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."

I reverted the addition because it reads to me more as a definition of old earth creationism or Progressive creationism and not as intelligent design perse. Furthermore, they way it was worded , it was widening the definition towards theistic evolution, in which "certain features of the universe and of living things are not nessecarily best explained by an intelligent cause" allows that everything can be explained by evolution, only that it was guided. If I was wrong in doing this, please let me know. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You did the right thing. We've spent a lot of time to get that intro the way it is. Thanks Kim. Jim62sch 11:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Recent Addition Kim Reverted

Kim, et al,

I proposed changes to the beginning paragraph of the intelligent design page because I believe that it is inappropriate for the Discovery Institute's opinion about intelligent design to be embedded in the definition of intelligent design. The Discovery Institute's opinion is embodied in the assertion that intelligent design is the "best" explanation.

Intelligent design should be defined in a way that does not contain the Discovery Institute's opinion. That was the intent of the change that I proposed. I believe that my proposed changes are consistent with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy.

Scott G. Beach 21:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My question would be, are you aware of other definitions made by other institutes, or organisations? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 00:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kim:

You asked if I had seen other definitions of intelligent design. I could not think of any other definitions at the time but I had the feeling that I had seen another definition somewhere. Then I remembered the definition that was adopted by the Kansas State Board of Education on November 8, 2005. That definition reads as follows:

"We also emphasize that the Science Curriculum Standards do not include Intelligent Design, the scientific disagreement with the claim of many evolutionary biologists that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion. While the testimony presented at the science hearings included many advocates of Intelligent Design, these standards neither mandate nor prohibit teaching about this scientific disagreement." (See http://www.ksde.org/outcomes/sciencestd.pdf )

The Kansas State Board of Education regards "Intelligent Design" as a "scientific disagreement" rather than as a "theory."

Scott G. Beach 07:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Humm, interesting, indeed a different definition. The problem I have with it is that this is a definition brought forward in a political document, which as a primary purpose has to do politics with. However, was it based on a underlying document of a scientist? And if so, would you be able to find that reference? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 00:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, exactly like Ed Poor. Gee, what a coincidence... FeloniousMonk 01:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kim, I am not aware of other definitions of ID.

The first sentence of the Intelligent Design page might be revised to read as follows:

Discovery Institute asserts that "intelligent design" is the best explanation for "certain features of the universe and of living things."

This revision retains the assertion that ID is the "best" explanation while making it clear that "best" is Discovery Institute's opinion. Without a change such as this, the definition of intelligent design will continue to have an unattributed opinion of superiority embedded in it, and that is clearly unscientific and inappropriate.

Scott G. Beach 01:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The original, long-standing intro is accurate as it stands. The definition given is attributed to the DI as a cite and the fact that the leading ID proponents are affiliated with the DI is noted in the following sentence.

Since all leading ID proponents, Dembski, Behe, Wells, Johnson, Meyer, etc. are fellows or staff of the institute, the institute's definition is their own. Were there any published dissentions, then we would need to change the intro. But there aren't, and thus the suggested change is no improvement, but would in turn imply that there are other notable differing definitions. Again, something there is no evidence of.

Of course some ID proponents would like to cultivate ambiguity that there may indeed be a different ID in the public's mind in an effort to shake off the albatross around their neck of the Dover ruling, but I see no reason that wikipedia should be the place to start with that...

We are not to spoon-feed the readers. We're required to simply lay the facts out, attribute any viewpoints and let the readers decide for themselves. FeloniousMonk 01:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Monk:

You wrote, "The original, long-standing intro is accurate as it stands." Yes, it is accurate but it is also deceptive. I read it at least five times trying to figure out what was wrong with it. I went over it word by word and then, BINGO, I realized that this so-called "theory" has a value judgment embedded in it. For the statement of a theory to contain the declaration that it is the best possible explanation is totally illegitimate and outright bizarre.

I believe that the Discovery Institute's statement of its "theory of intelligent design" is intentionally deceptive. They represent ID to be a theory and simultaneously declare that it is the best possible theory. They should not be allowed to do that. If this anti-scientific tactic is not challenged, Wikipedia unwittingly becomes a propagandist for the Discovery Institute.

By the way, you might be amused by my "Intelligent Designer Theory". See http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/idtheory.htm

Scott G. Beach 02:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see where wikipeida is describing it as a theory other than in attibuting what the DI says about it, and than provide the opinion of the science community as a response. As far as I can tell, this is accurate. Whether we agree with it, that is another issue, but that is not to wikipedia to decide. The question is whether it has been neutral and accurate documented, if not, we have to change it, but otherwise, it is just reporting how it is without a value judgement of the editors in it. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think your reasoning is faulty. Every "theory" is advanced as the "best possible theory" by its proponents. Whether that theory is political, religious or scientific. Even in the scrictest definition of the word theory, it still happens. The theory of gravity is advanced as "the possible theory" as to why things fall they way they do. Based on your criteria, nobody should be allowed to advance his own theroy if he considers it "best". Of course, this is absurd. El Cubano 03:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Cubano:

You wrote, "Every 'theory' is advanced as the 'best possible theory' by its proponents." Aside from the theory of intelligent design, I have NEVER before seen a theory that incorporates the declaration that it is the best explanation for various phenomena. I HAVE often seen the proponents of various theories state their theories and then compare and contrast their theories with alternative theories and THEN, in a summary, assert that their theories are superior to alternative theories. This is proper scientific conduct.

If the theory of intelligent design included the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things can be attributed to an intelligent designer" then I would not raise the objection that I have. An assertion worded in this way does not have the value judgment "best" embedded in it.

I continue to believe that embedding a value judgment into a theory is anti-scientific and thoroughly illegitimate and, in the case of intelligent design, intended to deceive people who are not familiar with the ethics of science. The Discovery Institute should be condemned for engaging in this chicanery.

Scott G. Beach 07:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see the difference. The DI doesn't try and conceal that their official position is that they believe their theory is the best one out there. What you are talking about is the difference between, "our theory is best; here is why" and, "here is our theory compared with some other; oh, look, it just happens to be best." If anything I would consider the latter practice, which you call "proper scientific conduct," more deceptive than the first. Besides, it somewhat ridiculous to think the proponent(s) of a particular theory do not think it is the best. Really, why advance a theory in which you do not believe? You should likewise be condemned for your chicanery in the matter. El Cubano 02:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Cubano:

You wrote, "I fail to see the difference." The difference between the "theory of intelligent design" and other theories is that the "theory of intelligent design" contains the word "best."

The proponents of a theory can assert that their theory is the best explanation. They are entitled to their opinion. However, I strongly object to the proponents of any "theory" putting their opinion DIRECTLY into the statement of the theory.

Inserting the opinion "best" into a theory is thoroughly inappropriate. However, please feel free to take the opposite position. You may find a few propagandists who agree with you but you will not find any scientists who agree with you; not even the scientists at the Discovery Institute, because they know better too. They know the difference between theory and propaganda.

Scott G. Beach 09:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only issue here is whether the positions as they are laid out in the article are factually accurate, and they are. Absent any credible evidence the intro is factually incorrect, it should stay as it is. All we as editors can do per policy is cover the significant viewpoints in proportion to their significance and provide attributions. The Discovery Institute's viewpoint is central and quoted as it is the most relevant within ID, and it is noted why: all leading proponents belong to it. This is immediately followed by a paragraph that covers the scientific community's viewpoint, which notes the specific viewpoint of National Academy of Science. This is how we cover the two major viewpoints on the topic per WP:NPOV. The other significant perspective - legal - is covered as well. This is factually accurate and complies with all policy here. If you have actual evidence from a credible, non-partisan source that specific statements in the intro are factually inaccurate, please present it and we'd be happy to reconsider your objection. FeloniousMonk 05:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr. Monk:

You have asserted that, "The only issue here is whether the positions as they are laid out in the article are factually accurate, and they are." I respectfully disagree that this is the "only issue."

Dr. Stephen C. Meyer's definition of the "theory of intelligent design" is presented on the Wikipedia page about "Intelligent Design." That page appropriately contains references to critics who assert that Dr. Meyer's "theory of intelligent design" is not a scientific theory. I agree with those critics and I go a step further. I assert that Dr. Meyer's "theory of intelligent design" is propaganda. I have posted that criticism on the World Wide Web at http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/trick.htm

I also believe that if Dr. Meyer's "theory of intelligent design" is posted on the Wikipedia page about Intelligent Design without a warning that his theory contains a value judgment -- i.e., the opinion "best" -- then Wikipedia is inadvertently allowing itself to be used by Dr. Meyer to propagate his propaganda.

Please do not allow Dr. Meyer to use Wikipedia and you to disseminate his propaganda. Please place a "propaganda warning" on Wikipedia's Intelligent Design page. Thank you for considering my request.

Sincerely, Scott G. Beach 23:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Beach, I would like to request that you please turn your attention to a group of crackpot researchers whom I have identified as publishing under the auspices of the partisan political orginzation called the IEEE. It appears that these researchers each have their own pet theories and models of systems, and in defiance of all scientific decorum they have declared their models and theories as being the "best." Here are just a few links: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]. These only represent a small number of the over 4000 abstracts published by partisans at the IEEE which make use of the words "theory" and "best" in their publications. Some are quite innocuous, though, there are many more results to review: [11]. I believe that in the interest of maintaining the quality of Wikipedia, we scour all articles for evidence of the propoganda perpetrated by these individuals by including value judgments in their scientific theories and remove all such occurrences. I propose that we start a new category where we can list offending articles until they have been properly reviewed by the Minitry of Truth^W^W^W concerned editors. El Cubano 00:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Cubano:

You were unable to refer me to even one other instance of a theory that has the theoretician's opinion embedded DIRECTLY into the statement of the theory.

You have proved my point. Thank you.

Scott G. Beach 02:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Campaign and controversy

(Sorry to create another heading, but I anticipate an edit conflict with Guettarda, and I'd rather avoid that. :-)

Someone wrote above:

convincing the general public that there is a debate among scientists about whether life evolved

I wonder if this has been a sticking point for us Wikipedia writers.

According to what I've read, both here in Wikipedia and elsewher., there is a campaign afoot - called "Teach the Controversy" - intended to convince the public that scientists have re-opened the debate over whether life evolved.

The response to this campaign, in the scientific community, has been ... what?

to ignore this campaign completely (not one word published in denial)
to attack the campaign as politically (or religiously) motivated and to deny that evolution is being reexamined (let alone that ID is being considered as an alternative)

If the response to the campaign has been to refuse to debate then we Wikipedians can write about the campaign's failure to attract attention in the scientific community. Other than perhaps a few irritable dismissals, like, "We are not going to dignify that with a response."

If you tell me that you refuse to debate X, that doesn't mean that I have gotten X on the table and that we are now debating it! Let's be honest, here.

But if a handful of scientists have looked at ID arguments, found them seriously lacking, and have published rebuttals than perhaps we should say that:

the only result of this massive publicity campaign has been to elicit a few terse responses from evolutionary biologists dismissing ID as pseudoscientific poppycock

Or perhaps this:

The Discovery Institute tried to "wedge" ID into the scientific arena, but as of 2006 had barely made a dent.

This actually leads to the related topic of the political strategy of religious believers in America, of whom half at least 45% disgree with evolution completely (and a hard-to-determine amount disagree with some aspects of it). These believers want to make schools teach ID alongside with evolution by natural selection as having equal standing. They use as a political argument the contention that "scientists are debating this". So the argument goes like this:

Premise: scientists are debating evolution vs. ID
Premise: if there's a debate on a scientific point, we must not conceal such a debate from schoolkids or teach only one side of the debate
Conclusion: We must teach schoolkids "both sides of the debate" on evolution vs. ID

Even for the vast majority of people who accept point #2 (and want kids to get a balance presentation of controversial topics in science), many people will not accept premise #1 and will thus reject the conclusion. --Uncle Ed 14:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bovine fecal matter at its finest (or most pungent). Why, tell me why, should any scientist waste breath on disputing a concept that depends on a supernatural entity as its cornerstone? The introduction of the supernatural makes it a non-scientific concept, akin to pyramid power. Jim62sch 00:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, please catch up on what scientists are writing. Pandasthumb.org has a variety of links that concern scientists who have decided to attack the actual arguments of ID (including the mathematical ones). There have also been pieces published in scientific journals detailing the issue. Ladlergo 15:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I have no access to scientific journals. Why don't you digest their attacks and write about them in the ID article?

I'm not particularly interested in the outcome of the debate; I'm only here to help the ID article get clarity and balance. --Uncle Ed 15:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you can suggest a place where they could be put, I'll happily start adding them. There's plenty of it that doesn't require a subscription to magazines. Ladlergo 15:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Corruption.

One element I find key in distinguishing something that is designed from something that isn't, is that something designed can be ruined or corrupted in a sense that something that wasn't designed cannot. Has there been any research that trys to establish one pattern as the design and other patterns as the corruption of the design? For example, so far intelligent design has been painted as if to say where a body produces insulin, that is part of one design, and where a body isn't producing insulin properly, that is part of another design, as opposed to a corruption of the insulin plan. Or even further, the "with insulin" situation is still corrupted, but lack as much corruption as the "no insulin" situation.

Introducing this into the model allows for better scientific processes, because you can see where you are merely compensating for a flaw in a design, as opposed to restoring the design. Also, one can then construct a vector of corruption where if something is less corrupt than another, following the vector should lead to a perfected design. If this is possible, this would also be a test of the validity of intelligent design. Hackwrench 22:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

huh? Jim62sch 00:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"All" (or is it just "many" or "most"?) leading ID proponents affiliated with Discovery Institute

Re: The recent insistence on the language "many" leading proponents rather than "all" in the introduction section of the article: The question whether all notable ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute has come up several times and been repeatedly hashed over by the various editors. Please review the archived discussions. Not one notable proponent was identified in two years of discussion who was not affiliated with the Discovery Institute... Kenosis 03:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Belief

Re Nnp's change

No, belief isn't the best way to describe this. It's an idea, and it exists whether people believe it to be true or not. Which isn't to say that it's a belief for some portion of the people who support it. But calling it a "belief" isn't the best choice.

As for the archives - it's no easier for me to dig through them than it is for you. Sorry, you'll have to do your won digging. Guettarda 13:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Balance in the intro

The version I placed today (Monday morning) has 56 out of 237 words (a) defining ID briefly, (b) identifying its proponents and (c) their point of view about the concept. The remaining 75% of the intro is against ID.

I don't mind dedicating the majority of the intro to the anti-ID point of view, as long as the pro-ID point of view gets at least some of the space. --Uncle Ed 14:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As Stephen Colbert would say ... don't be upset at the intro because reality has a well-known anti-creationism bias. --Cyde↔Weys 14:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That bit of cynicism gave me a sideways smile. ;-) --Uncle Ed 14:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To Ed Poor: please review the archives of talk page. The current version, in place for at least the last six months, is properly reflective of cautious discussion involving countless participant/editors, consisting of both advocates and critics of ID. The intro was agreed by consensus to consist of three paragraphs. The first deals with what ID proponents say ID is, and who those proponents are. The second deals with what the scientific community says ID is. The third paragraph is devoted to legal status of ID. ...Kenosis 16:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ID and science

Intro is now 1/3 ID + proponents + pro-ID point of view, versus 2/3 anti-ID point of view. That's good enough.

Further on, in the body of the article, is the place for any additional pro-ID stuff. I'd like to see more about why Dembski or others feel that ID ought to have scientific standing - other than the obvious strategy that it would "wedge" ID into public school classrooms. I mean on what grounds do they consider it a "scientific" theory or concept? Does it have predictive value (in their eyes)? Do they feel it can conceivably be falsified?

Please discuss the intro with me, instead of just reverting all my changes on the grounds that some sort of consensus exists to leave the intro unchanged. I still see no such agreement anywhere. --Uncle Ed 15:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why it's a scientific theory: Well, they say it's scientific becaue... Hrm. Actually, Behe said that ID can only be considered scientific if science is broadened to incluce subjects such as astrology. (Kitzmiller vs. Dover)

Predictive value: Experiments will reveal design. Or something.

Falsifiable: Considering that Behe et al always conveiently forget (when they don't deny) the experiments that refute their statements (see immune system literature), I don't think it will ever be falisified to them. They just move the goalposts again.

Ladlergo 15:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed Poor, please review the archives of talk page. The current version, in place for at least the last six months or more, is properly reflective of cautious discussion involving countless participant/editors, consisting of both advocates and critics of ID. The intro was agreed by consensus to consist of three paragraphs. The first deals with what ID proponents say ID is, and who those proponents are. The second deals with what the scientific community says ID is. The third paragraph is devoted to legal status of ID ... Kenosis 16:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then the sentence The Discovery Institute and its affiliated scholars are the leading proponents of the concept. which "deals with ... who those proponents are" should be okay. So I'll put it back. --Uncle Ed 16:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Now we just need to find sources for these three points and put them into the article. That ought to nail those ID-pushers to the wall.

Behe admits ID is not a science. Then says if we add a pseudoscience like astrology to biology, ID would be science? That's precious. I gotta see the quote for that! :-)
Has Behe, Dembski or anyone in the ID camp proposed any experiments or made any predictions? (About living things - not about whether the political tide will turn. ;-)

If there are experiments which some scientists says refutes ID in some way, this should be described in Wikipedia somewhere. If not in the Intelligent design, then at least linked to it.

Itzhal Reahl wrote, "Mortimer Snerd's 1992 experiment with frog larvae proves that ID is wrong about the immune system." (or something like that, preferably with a statemnt of what ID predicted should have been found in the experiment, contrasted with what Snerd actually observed. [Note that I made up Reahl and Snerd - this is an example of the form of reference I'm looking for.

If some anti-ID writer says that ID advocates keep "moving the goalposts", that also should be in the article. --Uncle Ed 15:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blog quote attributed to Bill Dembski: You've charged me with moving the goalposts and adjusting the definition of irreducible complexity because I require of evolutionary biologists to "connect the dots" in a causally convincing way. [12]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day11pm.html is the transcript of Behe's cross-examination. Do a search for "astrology" and you'll find it. He tries to explain that he meant the "archaic" definition of astrology, but he certainly didn't say that the first time around. Also, the archaic definition of astrology still includes the idea that people's personalities are influenced by the phase of the planets. I almost felt embarassed for him. Ladlergo 15:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the proposed experiment has been that scientists take a flask of chemicals and show that life will arise. I hope you can see why this isn't feasible. However, even if scientists wasted their time on this, neither outcome would prove anything. If life isn't created, it doesn't prove that life can't be created under those or any other circumstances. If life is created, IDists would say that just because the experiment ran that way, it's no indication that life originally developed that way. Ladlergo 15:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does ID address the origin of life? I thought it only dealt with evolution. Perhaps the intro needs to be more clear, or at least the first section. --Uncle Ed 15:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, ID is also used in the discussion of the origin of life. God (or aliens, theoretically, though none of the DI people believe that) created the first cell, which is obvious from the design of cells, because nothing that complex could have ever arisen by chance. Excuse me while I go wash my hands for even typing that. Ladlergo 16:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day10am2.html If you do a search for "flagellum" you'll find one of the experiments that's been proposed. http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/11/behes_experimen.html This is a casual look at why that experiment would not prove or disprove evolution or ID. Ladlergo 19:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New controversy about the content of the intro

Relevant new thread reproduced here so it can be seen and discussed as a separate topic thread. ... Kenosis 16:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss the intro with me, instead of just reverting all my changes on the grounds that some sort of consensus exists to leave the intro unchanged. I still see no such agreement anywhere. --Uncle Ed 15:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed Poor, please review the archives of talk page. The current version, in place for at least the last six months or more, is properly reflective of cautious discussion involving countless participant/editors, consisting of both advocates and critics of ID. The intro was agreed by consensus to consist of three paragraphs. The first deals with what ID proponents say ID is, and who those proponents are. The second deals with what the scientific community says ID is. The third paragraph is devoted to legal status of ID ... Kenosis 16:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then the sentence The Discovery Institute and its affiliated scholars are the leading proponents of the concept. which "deals with ... who those proponents are" should be okay. So I'll put it back. --Uncle Ed 16:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the archives; this matter has been discussed repeatedly. If you have any comments or advances on the archival material post here. --Davril2020 16:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Ed Poor's recent major edits to intro, and Nnp's edit-summary comment ("rv to ed, please be specific in your references to the (huge) archive. Also, no decisions on wikipedia are final and articles can change over time. HAND"): It is true that these things are not written in stone, but rather in open-source electrons. Nonetheless nothing significant has changed in the last six months regarding the truth of intelligent design and its proponents and critics. Please discuss proposed changes and provide justifications that are compelling enough to override or modify the immense amounts of discussion, argument, time and effort that went into the current version of this article... Kenosis 16:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, you guys win this round. I gave up counting how many times Davril, Joshua, et al., reverted to their preferred version. But I'm still not allowed to revert them back more than 3 times in 24 hours. I think I managed to go up to 5 - because I got confused about "partial reverts". But I re-read the 3RR policy page.

It seems to be like the Ko rule in go (game). You simply can't bring the article back to its previous state - like repeating a board position. Sorry, won't happen again. --Uncle Ed 16:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see it as "winning" anything. Davril2020, ScienceApologist and myself just happen to be online at the moment, but the current vesion reflects the work and cautious consensus of at least 20 or 30 different editors over a long period of time, since well before I got involved in Wikipedia. Take care for now... Kenosis 16:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So we're supposed to stop work on it now? Is it finished? :) --Nnp 17:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see Ed Poor's factually-challenged, NPOV-conflicted daily attempts to rewrite the article's intro to suit his POV continues apace. How long do we need to endure his chronic disruption here? FeloniousMonk 17:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop your personal attacks - or at least show one edit which "rewrites the article's intro to suit my POV". Don't forget to point out what POV you alleged is mine. And then show how an edit (or edit series) pushes this point of view.

Failing that, I would suggest that repeatedly reverting the article to exclude all my edits, large and small, is disruptive of the wiki process.

I asked you the same thing a dozen times last year. You ignored each request. How about this year? --Uncle Ed 17:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would there be opposition to changing 'concept' to 'argument'? Concept makes it sound somewhat non-controversial. --Nnp 17:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligent Design is a Dogma

Wikipedia currently defines intelligent design as a concept: "An abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances" (Webster's Online Dictionary).

The intelligent designists of the Discovery Institute define intelligent design as the "best" explanation for "certain features of the universe and of living things". They have inserted the value judgment "best" into their definition of intelligent design and have thereby made intelligent design into a belief that is "not to be disputed or doubted."

Dogma is a "belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted" (Wikipedia).

Intelligent design is obviously a dogma.

Scott G. Beach 17:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That dogma don't hunt. Sorry, I couldn't resist. FeloniousMonk 17:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scott, it is not for us contributors to label ID a "dogma".

If, however, you can find a published source (like a scientist or politician) who holds that point of view, we can add that idea to the article. Like this guy:

Fiorenzo Facchini, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Bologna, laid out the scientific rationale for Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, saying that in the scientific world, biological evolution "represents the interpretative key of the history of life on Earth." He lamented that certain American "creationists" had brought the debate back to the "dogmatic" 1800s and said their arguments weren't science but ideology. "This isn't how science is done," he wrote. "If the model proposed by Darwin is deemed insufficient, one should look for another, but it's not correct from a methodological point of view to take oneself away from the scientific field pretending to do science." [13]

I think some ID proponents label Evolution a dogma also. The dispute is over the very methods of science and the limits of methodological naturalism. Kind of like behavioral psychology saying it is the only scientific approach to human psychology.

One side says "We can only look at physical causes." The other side (Dembski, I think) says "If we can only see physical effects, this does not mean we mustn't consider a non-physical cause."

Perhaps opposition to ID is more due to Atheism than anything else. It's a tricky topic. And often one side will refuse to listen to the other side, even long enough to prepare a rebuttal. --Uncle Ed 18:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, there are many biologists who are most assuradly not atheists and believe that ID is a PoS idea and is nowhere near being a scientific theory. See Kenneth R. Miller, the author of a widely-used biology textbook. Ladlergo 18:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that the atheists who object to ID on religious grounds are joined by non-atheistis in their assertion that ID is pseudoscience? If such an alliance exists, it is just as significant to the article as the "religious motivation" of Discovery Institute fellows. --Uncle Ed 13:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are non-athiests who say that ID is pseudoscience (again, see Miller), including clergy. http://www.livescience.com/othernews/ap_051118_ID_vatican.html Here's a nice quote from the Vatican's chief astronomer. Ladlergo 13:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a concept

Could someone please explain why ID is not a concept? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's more a connotation issue, at least for me. The wording made it sound somewhat uncontroversial. --Nnp 18:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, please read the archives on this issue. We discussed this at great length and settled on concept as a compromise. FeloniousMonk 18:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ID can be called a theory, a concept, or an idea. We can also say that it "makes an argument" just as we can say that "ID professes to be scientific" [14].

Whether it is a scientific theory of course is an enormous sticking point, and some writers think (with some justification, I'd say) that calling it a "theory" is halfway to endorsing it as a "Scientific theory" - so here at Wikipedia we avoid that term.

Idea is certainly safe. No one here has ever objected to that on POV-pushing grounds. It's a bit bland, though. --Uncle Ed 18:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kim:

You asked, "Could someone please explain why ID is not a concept?"

I believe that it is correct to refer to intelligent design as a concept, "An abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances" (Webster's Online Dictionary).

Intelligent design is the kind of concept that a supernaturalist would formulate after seeing various regularities in nature. In contrast, a naturalist would not infer from those regularities that the regularities have an intelligent cause. A naturalist would not postulate the existence of an intelligent designer/creator.

ID is a supernaturalistic concept. It is also a dogma. Bow Wow Wow. [Don't bite me again Monk or I am going to be perturbed!]

Scott G. Beach 20:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific or religious

Dr. Roy Spencer wrote:

Twenty years ago, as a PhD scientist, I intensely studied the evolution versus intelligent design controversy for about two years. And finally, despite my previous acceptance of evolutionary theory as "fact," I came to the realization that intelligent design, as a theory of origins, is no more religious, and no less scientific, than evolutionism. In the scientific community, I am not alone. There are many fine books out there on the subject. Curiously, most of the books are written by scientists who lost faith in evolution as adults, after they learned how to apply the analytical tools they were taught in college.[15]

Perhaps we should mention Spencer's views in the article. --Uncle Ed 20:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Has he published any research on evolution? If not, why should we include him? I wouldn't consider him a notable figure outside of satellite-based research on climate change. Ladlergo 20:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not him, his views. Obviously, we'd have to pick a different source. Spencer's article was only a popular treatment. --Uncle Ed 20:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This viewpoint is already covered sufficiently in the aritcle. He's just regurgitating the Discovery Institute line: "Many intelligent design followers believe that "Scientism" is itself a religion that promotes secularism and materialism in an attempt to erase theism from public life" It isn't surprising, since Spencer and the DI have been citing each other for some time now since a good number of DI fellows are also global warming skeptics like Spencer. FeloniousMonk 23:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing the supernatural

The first sentence of the Wikipedia page about Intelligent Design reads, "Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that 'certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.'"

Intelligent design can be properly described as a concept. Intelligent design can be more precisely described as a supernaturalistic concept. If I inserted "supernaturalistic" into the description of intelligent design, would the proponents of intelligent design allow that insertion to stand? Or do the proponents want to suppress the simple fact that intelligent design is a supernaturalistic concept?

Will the proponents of intelligent design allow Wikipedia to accurately describe intelligent design? If not, why not?

Scott G. Beach 23:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hrm. My automatic reaction is that they wouldn't allow it, because the design could be naturalistic (aliens, even if no members of the DI believe it). In my opinion, trying to add it is more trouble than it's worth. Ladlergo 13:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't be hard to find a quote from an ID proponent who acknowledges that ID has a supernaturalistic aspect. Isn't that part and parcel of the whole argument?

ID argues that the naturalistic explanation for the origin of life and changes that result in new species ("Macroevolution") is insufficient. Arguing from that premise, ID suggests nature shows signs of having been designed. Now, design implies a conscious designer.

Reaction to the proposal of a Designer tends to split immediately along the fault line of atheism vs. faith.

Strong atheism rules out God as a possibility
An utterly open-minded person (with no agenda!) might say, "The designer might be aliens (as in sci-fi shows like Star Trek), or it might be gods or the Judeo-Christian God
Someone who already believes in God would regard ID as an acceptable hypothesis - although this goes against the Methodological naturalism of Western science.

I think it would make a nice addition to the article, to address the supernatural in our Intelligent Design article. Assuming, of course, that the article isn't "done" yet. --Uncle Ed 13:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Address the supernatural"? Erm, how? It's not clear to me that anything useful can be said on the subject, and that anything that was said might just spark a flamewar. What do you have in mind? Cheers, --Plumbago 13:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's all very well and good, but ID doesn't neccessate supernaturalism, so the best we could say is that the most popular version of ID is supernaturalistic. Ladlergo 13:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plumbago, I don't think it would start a flame war. FeloniousMonk, for example, would not engage in such. (He and I disgree about "the wiki nature" and that's a side point, unlikely to spill over into discussion of a substantive matter.)

Ladlergo, perhaps ID is not so monolithic as our intro suggests. Are their variants which posit a supernatural aspect, such as for the identity of the designer? (like gods or God?) Are there also variants which leave open the question of what sort of designer there must have been?

Complicating the question of Who is the designer? is the fact that the best known advocates of ID apparently had a hidden agenda to promote belief in the Judeo-Christian God. That is, they seem to have been using the issue of evolution as a "wedge" to destroy Materialism - which goes way beyond the immediate question of Is evolution a good theory? - and which probably accounts for much of the (outraged?) opposition to the Intelligent Design movement. --Uncle Ed 13:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given that not all of ID is supernaturalistic, I would be loathe to put it in the opening. However, it is mentioned further down in the article. Ladlergo 13:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

if evolutionism is the standard for calling something science fact

then i think there shouldn't be any trouble pointing out that ID has at least that as much, if not more merit, then the gap filled "darwin"istic theology--F.O.E. 12:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing. I like your "evilutionist" photo on your userpage, very "live and let live". I think we know where you're coming from. Cheers, --Plumbago 13:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the trolling. Please edit constructively in the future. (I thought we were allowed to edit talk pages to remove trolling/vandalism that was posted to start a flamewar. Is there policy on this somewhere?) Ladlergo 13:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

F.O.E., how is your comment related to the article? Do you have a suggestion for an addition or other improvement? Can you provide a source for the idea that ID's merit is comparable to "Darwinism"?

Who says that Darwin's theory has gaps? Are you referring to Punctuated equilibrium?

And who regards Darwinism or "scientism" as a "religion"? (Perhaps F.M. can help with that, he brought it up recently.) --Uncle Ed 13:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, it's posts like these that remind me that the exchanges with you are more about miscommunication than POV-pushing. I appreciate that you're trying to flesh out the article more, even if you've stepped on a bunch of toes. Ladlergo 13:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed's participation here has brought disruption, not quality. This was a good, stable article until he decided to "fix" it. FeloniousMonk 16:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good and stable, yes, but it can always be better. I suggest that he's overly bold, rather than trolling. Ladlergo 17:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. His history of being "bold" at creationism-related articles that got him into hot water in the past. I'd like to think that Ed has learned something from those experiences but it doesn't look like it. 17:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Identity of the designer

I started to fix up the "Designer Identity" section, but it's more complex than I thought at first. I'd like to work in this quote from Dembski:

The who-designed-the-designer question invites a regress that is readily declined. The reason this regress can be declined is because such a regress arises whenever scientists introduce a novel theoretical entity. For instance, when Ludwig Boltzman introduced his kinetic theory of heat back in the late 1800s and invoked the motion of unobservable particles (what we now call atoms and molecules) to explain heat, one might just as well have argued that such unobservable particles do not explain anything because they themselves need to be explained.

What would be the best way of using this quote? --Uncle Ed 16:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is complex, and it's clear you have a poor understanding of the topic. It was also accurate and complete prior to your "fix." What's there to fix? I've restored the original, long-standing content. Please stop disrupting this article Ed. FeloniousMonk 16:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's no help. It's not complete because it leaves out the reason Dembski wants to dodge the who-designed-the-designer question. All we have now are reasons (from the anti-ID side) why the question shouldn't be dodged. --Uncle Ed 17:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cut:

the authoritative description of intelligent design^[1] explicitly states that the universe displays features of having been designed. Acknowledging the paradox

This bit of text seems to label as a "paradox" the idea that intelligent design is based on the argument that the universe displays features of having been designed. I think this is only a wording issue, sloppy grammar maybe. Can someone explain what the passage was trying to say, fix it, and then put it back? --Uncle Ed 18:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, what exactly is it you object to? The project's goal is accurate, stable articles. Articles shouldn't be subjected to extensive rewrites for no good reason, particularly by those who are not well-read on the topic, Ed. So before you go making further misguided edits and we let them stand, tell us exactly why this particular needs editing, or to be "fixed" as you claim. FeloniousMonk 18:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ID and religion

Peter S. Williams wrote:

ID is not premised on any religious claims; nor does it lead to a religious conclusion. ID is based upon scientific methodology combined with empirical evidence and leads to an inference of ‘intelligent design’ as the best explanation for certain facets of reality. [16]

This means there is a dispute between the two camps over whether ID is a form of Creationism. Creationism begins with premises like the following:

God exists
God created the physical universe
God created each new species of life

(Same goes for non-monotheistic faiths.)

Is there anyone who subscribes to the point of view that ID begins with one or more of these premises? If so, that person's point of view should definitely be in the article. Even if they are anti-ID, like the judge in the recent case.

But I also ask, is there anyone who insist that ID does not begin with any of these premises? I'd prefer a prominent ID supporter like Behe or Dembski, but all I could find easily was the reviewer I quoted above. --Uncle Ed 17:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's one quote. On the other hand, there are many examples (some of them mentioned in the article, last I checked) where ID-proponents have open stated the indentity of the designer. They tend to say different things to different audiences. The analysis in Kitzmiller of Pandas and People is also illustrative - in many places "creationism" was simply replaced with "intelligent design". If the proponents of ID are willing to substitute the word "creationism" with ID, then it's pretty clear that they are not saying that ID is different from creationism. If Dembski (iirc) is willing to state that the designer is God, at least to certain audiences, then its wrong to say that "supporters deny that ID is religious". Specific people in specific instances may say that. Behe has said that the designer doesn't have to be God, it could be aliens, but at the same time ID-proponents have rejected the Raelian view.

As for the last statement, that "God created each new species of life" - I think that there are many creationists (e.g., baraminologists) who do not believe that each species was created. There's a wide range of views within creationism - your third point is not a given at all. Guettarda 18:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review

In this section it is stated: "[I]ntelligent design proponents have set up their own journals with "peer review" that consists entirely of intelligent design supporters which lack rigor." How do they know that the supporters lack rigor? Dan Watts 17:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Having your buddies review your work is not a form of critical, neutral scrutiny, and not how PR works. FeloniousMonk 18:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mass reverts

FM wrote in an edit summary:

rv. removal of accurate, long-standing content. Discuss your changes first, Ed. You need to start seeking consensus for your edits & accepting it when there is none

This sounds like a claim that everyone must get your permission first, before making efforts, or you will personally revert each contributor's edits to your chosen version. I see nothing on this talk page indicating an agreement to give you this authority.

I would you prefer you discuss edits you disgree with, rather than doing mass reverts. Mine is not the only work you are discarding. --Uncle Ed 18:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right. In so doing I also revert the work of others fixing your edits, which are neither accurate nor improvements over the orignal, long-standing content. Which I'll add you have yet to explain why it needs "fixing" in the first place. Discuss your changes first, Ed. You need to start seeking consensus for your edits & accepting it when there is none. FeloniousMonk 18:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In case it isn't yet clear, FM isn't the only one reverting your edits. You've been reverted by something like 6 or 7 editors in the past two days alone. And as far as I can tell, nobody except you has ever reverted back to restore your edits. It seems fairly clear that you're the one with the "rogue viewpoint" here. This is in no way a bad thing, but it does mean that you're the one who should justify his edits, and engage in consensus-building. Just my two cents, anyway. --Ashenai 18:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear enough: you and FM both are doing this in concert, as I wrote further below. Kind of a tag-team 3RR violation, isn't it? --Uncle Ed 18:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, come on there's no conspiracy here - just a lot of people who see this in a different manner than do you. Guettarda 18:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:3RR; you'll note that it specifically does not apply to groups. So unless you're accusing me of being FM's sock, that dog won't hunt. Sorry :) --Ashenai 18:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, one way to look at it is that there is a name for a conspiracy by a majority of users to keep things a certain way: that's called consensus, or sometimes democracy. =) --Ramdrake 18:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Certain Features: Intelligent Design Decoded

Intelligent design is an assertion about "certain features of the universe and of living things". Those "certain features" are never specified. This lack of specificity is intended to conceal the fact that intelligent design is about the entire universe, including all "living things."

"Certain features" includes electrons, protons, neutrons, atoms, stars, planets, galaxies, me and you. The designers of intelligent design do not want to admit this simple fact but it is true and they will not deny it!

The designers of intelligent design want to spark a debate that will, like a silly dog, chase its own tail around and around and around... They thereby create an endless whirlpool that sucks in weak-minded people who can be easily reprogrammed to believe whatever brand of supernaturalistic mumbo-jumbo the designers of intelligent design have to offer.

I challenge the designers of intelligent design to specify the "certain features" that their so-called theory is about. By their silence, they will expose themselves as shameless propagandists.

Scott G. Beach 18:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scott, talk pages are not forums for discussing the subject of the article. If you wish to debate IDists, I suggest you find a proper message board. Ladlergo 18:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss edits before making them

Ed, would you please post all potential edits on the talk page? Even if you believe there are grammatical problems within the article, please discuss them here first. The consensus is to leave the page as-is; if you want to change anything, you'll have to get other people to agree. Ladlergo 18:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought this was a wiki. I didn't realize that Wikipedia had changed its policy about "anyone can edit any page, any time". Please provide me a list of pages having a "consensus" that all potential edits must be discussed before being made. --Uncle Ed 18:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following is from WP:BOLD:

If you expect or see a disagreement with your version of the article, and you want to change or delete anything substantial in the text, it's a good idea to list your objections one by one in the talk page, reasonably quoting the disputed phrases, explaining your reasoning and providing solid references.

Then, wait for responses for at least a day: people edit Wikipedia in their spare time and may not respond immediately. If no one objects, proceed, but always move large deletions to the Talk page and list your objections to the text so that other people will understand your changes and will be able to follow the history of the page. Also be sure to leave a descriptive edit summary detailing your change and reasoning

We'd like you to follow this process, please. --Ashenai 18:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you expect or see a disagreement with your version of the article

Key phrase here. Ladlergo 18:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this applies to FeloniousMonk and Ashenai's recent reversions. And I wish they would list their objections one by one, instead of reverting everything.

I make many types of edits, large and small. I'm always willing to discuss them. Usually I'm the first to start a discussion. However, on this page I've been met with what I can only call a stubborn refusal to discuss.

Between FM and Ashenai there were 5 reversions in the last 24 hours alone to something they keep calling a "consensus" version. Is there a Wikipedia:Conensus version policy page I can go to, learn more about this, or is it plot to subvert ordinary wiki collaboration? (an unsigned comment by Ed Poor)

Keep trying to spin it, Ed, someone may buy it. Anyone who looks at the article's history will see you are the cause of the disruption here; something you have a long history of, sadly. There wouldn't be any reversions at all were it not for you trying to force your controversial changes into the article despite there being no consensus for them. This article was stable until you arrived. FeloniousMonk 19:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Might I suggest that you argue about edits rather than about editing. If you have issue with Ed's edits, simply lay them out here, instead of leaving angry edit summaries. Not only would this put you on better moral ground, it would allow constructive dialog about the issue to occur that might lead to a resolution, rather than a pointless revert war. Graft 19:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting related article

Niall Shanks is a recently created fact-filled, NPOV masterpiece about an ID critic cited in this article. Guess who wrote it? FeloniousMonk 19:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What? Are you stalking me now? It's a stub. And it's no more one-sided than the current ID article. It contains two criticisms. To balance it, why not add some praise? Or some personal details about the author? Or a summary of the author's views? This is a wiki, you don't need "consensus" from me or Hateless to edit the article! --Uncle Ed 19:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Small world. Al 19:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

^ "The theory of Intelligent Design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." Discovery Institute. What is Intelligent Design? Questions About Intelligent Design

[1] "The theory of Intelligent Design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." Discovery Institute. What is Intelligent Design? Questions About Intelligent Design

[1]

@@ Line 1,030: / Line 1,030: @@
 ::::Keep trying to spin it, Ed, someone may buy it. Anyone who looks at the article's history will see you are the cause of the disruption here; something you have a long history of, sadly. There wouldn't be any reversions at all were it not for you trying to force your controversial changes into the article despite there being '''no''' consensus for them. This article was stable until you arrived. [[User:FeloniousMonk|FeloniousMonk]] 19:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
+:::::Might I suggest that you argue about edits rather than about editing. If you have issue with Ed's edits, simply lay them out here, instead of leaving angry edit summaries. Not only would this put you on better moral ground, it would allow constructive dialog about the issue to occur that might lead to a resolution, rather than a pointless revert war. [[User:Graft|Graft]] 19:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 == Interesting related article ==

Revision as of 19:23, 31 May 2006

Archives

Points that have already been discussed

Notes to editors

Quotations marks and footnotes

great article. but maybe a little attention to specified complexity

Interesting news article

Maybe for a "In popular culture" section

220.239.211.252

The Arch-Bish of Canterbury / ideas for Intro

Possible Inaccuracy:

I'm still clueless

Improbably enough...

Revert explanation

!!!

Broken wiki-link

Category:Pseudoscience

Other Countries

Recent anon edits

Discovery Institute POV

Atheism, ID, and belief in God

Unilateral revert

Revising the intro

Orr quote

FeloniousMonk Revert

Why the quick revert?

A recent addition I reverted

Regarding the Recent Addition Kim Reverted

Campaign and controversy

Corruption.

"All" (or is it just "many" or "most"?) leading ID proponents affiliated with Discovery Institute

Belief

Balance in the intro

ID and science

New controversy about the content of the intro

Intelligent Design is a Dogma

Not a concept

Scientific or religious

Addressing the supernatural

if evolutionism is the standard for calling something science fact

Identity of the designer

ID and religion

Peer Review

Mass reverts

Certain Features: Intelligent Design Decoded

Discuss edits before making them

Interesting related article