Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control/Proposed decision

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Concerns relating to decisions about content

In the case of Gaijin - the "incivility" includes the use of the word "snark" and the like for which he is to be topic banned. Andy the Grump, whose level of incivility is notable (vide AN/I archives where I have defended his "right to be irascible") gets only a "reminder". For the nth time.

North8000 is told that specific content is "inappropriate" and "undue" where such a ruling on content is against ArbCom rules in the first place -- a site ban should not be made on such "evidence" at all. I disagree often with Gaijin and North8000, but the findings are based on exceedingly weak evidence, and the remedies are those applied to Raleigh.

(And to show how far-afield, mis-representative and and abusive someone is trying to take this, in the last 6 months, I have had a total of 11 edits on the article (including gnome edits and vandalism/test edit reversals), and a total of TWO edits (in 6 months) on the contested material is scarcely "casting aspersions" at all -- can someone actually weigh real evidence over there?)

IMO, the "decision" is more a "sledgehammer" based more on views by ArbCom on content than anything else, and, indeed, specifically makes rulings on content. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

First, regarding AndyTheGrump (ATG), the community is divided about, um, vocal irascibility and there's no consensus about how to deal with it. Few of ATG's remarks exceed the level of cussing. That said, the topic will likely be placed under discretionary sanctions and further instances may be dealt with severely on the initiative of the enforcing administrators.

Second, regarding conduct -v- content, the committee has been making findings about misuse of sources, undue weight, misrepresentation of sources, etc since its inception. Consensus has long been that these types of behaviour are conduct issues.  Roger Davies ^talk 12:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

In the case at hand, I respectfully suggest that the conduct issues and content issues are quite distinct - and that the content issues have clearly been considered in this case to a far greater degree than is proper. Any finding based on "undue weight" is clearly going past the normal remit of the committee. And site bans require, IMO, substantial evidence which has, again IMO, not been presented here - the aim is to help the project, and if the ban will not actually help the project, then it is improper. I can not see the Gaijin and North8000 sanctions as being anything other than overkill clearly based on content judgments being made by arbitrators, contrary to policy. And again, the use of the word "snark" compared to AtG's perennial irascibility is not in the same league. Collect (talk) 15:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I am struck deaf and dumb by this decision. The committee has destroyed the two most helpful, neutral, and polite editors in this mess. Gaijin and North have been the two most level headed parties in this debacle, always the ones that could be counted on to be calm and cool when everyone else was raging. Others are let off with warnings? This is a real eye opener, and I do not think I will edit the Gun Gontrol articles anymore. I'm too scared. I'm a gun control advocate, but I try to put Wikipedia ahead of my politics, and this decision frightens me. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 20:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Item #1 "What Goethean said" items

OK, on the "edited while logged out" seemingly to either avoid sanction and/or to escape scrutiny since the drafter has seen fit to just in essence says "what Goethean said", let's look at some of those "what Goethean said" items. First, my first edit in Wikipedia was on September 16th, 2009, and I was an obviously an newbie at that point. For my first few months I was young and stupid and I didn't realize how important it was for privacy reasons to always log in and I often didn't bother to log in. I also made other privacy jeopardizing mistakes which I will not detail here. As a result I ended up with some privacy problems with a particular editor and at my request a senior oversighter got involved, reviewed the whole situation, and and helped on that. Next, for those not already familiar, a dynamic IP address from a commercial internet provider is randomly "passed around" / temporarily used between their thousands of customers. And finally, even the newest claim of this "construction" is over 4 year old! Now let's look at a few of those blindly accepted "what Goethean said" items:

• The "same passive-aggressive writing style as North" was about a floating/dynamic IP address, and the last edit at that address was June 2009, months before I was even an editor!!!! And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• The "test edits North's sandbox then agrees with North" This was an IP who (in December 2009) made two edits one minute apart, first a test edit on my talk page (not my sandbox) and then a minute later a one word positive comment ("good") on my gnome work at an article where there was no dispute. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "gun control, edits just below North" A floating IP from a commercial internet provider makes a gnome suggestion in an area that I know nothing about and never was or got involved in, and the entire history of that IP consists of 4 edits, including ONE (that gnome edit) on gun control And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "IP99.x acted as an anti-climate change advocate and carried out a personal campaign against Tim Lambert" "IP99.x" refers to the entirety of 1% of all of the internet addresses on the planet earth! And so Goethean is saying that since one of them (with views opposite to mine on climate change) did something with somebody I never heard of and was never involved with on a topic that I was never involved with, all 4+ years ago that means I did something wrong!!!
• "WP:ANI proposal that IP99.x is an anti-climate change WP:SPA and would have interaction bans and topic bans, including a topic ban from John Lott, an advocate against gun control. The proposed ban would apply to the individual not the addresses and [would] continue to apply should the user choose to register an account" So somebody of the 1% of addresses in the world with a "99" prefix , with views opposite to my own on climate change, was involved in something over 4 years ago that I know nothing about. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong"
• "Traveler's Dream account who edits North's sandbox" An editor who can barely write English and made the blunder of posting talk into an article the one lifetime edit from an internet provider IP address mistakenly posts a comment at an Article page, an admin userfied that page to my sandbox, and Goethean mistakenly says that they posted in my sandbox. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?
• "IP76.x cluster harrassed User:Arcayne" Somebody through one the 1% of the world's internet addresses that start with "76" did stuff wrong with "Arcayne" (an editor that I never heard of and never interacted with, on topics that I've never been involved in ) in 2008, over a year before I was an editor. And THAT is "what Goethean said" evidence that I did something wrong?

And everything else is of a similar construction.North8000 (talk) 12:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Have moved this to the talk page, the PD page should only be editted by arbitrators and clerks. Worm^TT(talk) 12:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi North. So your claim is that none of those edits that I posted were made by you. Is that correct? — goethean 14:51, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

NOTHING made prior to September 2009 was made by me, and NONE of the above were made by me. Then, as a I said, in my first few months as a newbie starting in Sept 2009 I edited without logging in several times. North8000 (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

scope of dispute

Roger Davies Seraphimblade Newyorkbrad Depending on how strictly and broadly the scope is interpreted, I think it may be greater than intended. It effectively places all US (and perhaps global) politics under discretionary sanctions, and topic bans. IE, Obama, most everyone in congress (though some more than others), many many state and local politicians etc are certainly "people and organizations associated with governmental regulation of firearm ownership" - I think a qualifier may need to be put in to say that the DS/bans scope only covers these orgs/people when discussing gun control? If the broad scope is intended, then it should just say "Politics" or "US politics" and cut out the confusion/ambiguity. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The scope of the remedies is governed by remedy 1, not the finding. I will raise the issue of whether the precise language of the remedy should be tweaked. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad Per your "narrow" comment on Rog's remedy, isn't that true of the diffs for everyone involved? If a "narrow" topic ban is not appropriate for all parties, would perhaps a 6mo/1 year "control" ban plus an indef "nazi control" ban be appropriate? Gaijin42 (talk) 15:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It's a judgment call, but I think some of those involved could use time away from the broader topic. In any event, these obviously are decisions to be made by all 11 participating arbitrators, not just me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

North

The initial arbitrator proposal at the workshop was to topic-ban User:North8000. I did not notice until today that a proposed site-ban was added five days ago. I don't know about other people, but I really would have appreciated if the header at the Workshop had indicated a proposed site-ban, but it only indicated a proposed topic-ban. It's not right to include a proposed site-ban under a header that says topic-ban. This was undoubtedly a mere oversight, rather than an attempt to avoid scrutiny of the site-ban proposal, but still the oversight has consequences.

As to the merits of a site-ban for North, I hope Arbitrators will consider NYB's proposal for a final warning. I have seen North make some good edits, and I know that he is a better editor than at least one who has been completely unscathed by this gun control case. Yes, he needs to become much more concise at talk pages, but that can happen.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

So, on the article in question, I made a total of 2 edits on contested material in the 1/2 year leading to the case, and my only participation was low key, and arguing only for the straightforward historical coverage. And we have Goethean's laughble construction of what internet provider dynamic IP's did 5 years ago, months or years before I was even an editor cited as "evidence" or the reason for a finding and a few disputes cherry picked selected from my 42,000 edits without even a 1 minute block. And then proposing a SITE BAN for that! What kind of a screwed up mess has this degenerated into!North8000 (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC

Goethean

Even if the findings of facts covered all the relevant material, Goethean should be topic-banned. After all, he's under a topic ban in TPM, and he is doing some of the same things here as he did there. If we were to take the findings of facts as gospel, he wouldn't appear to deserve as long a topic-ban as others, but he still needs something. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I have unwatched the gun control articles and do not intend to edit them in the future. They are, after all, not in the areas that I typically edit. So a topic ban shouldn't affect my edits at all. — goethean 17:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Two cents--@ArbCom members:

For the record, I know very little about the ins and outs of procedure--good thing I'm not on this hallowed committee. In addition, it's Gaijin who pointed me thisaway, after I made a few comments on the workshop page (here): you'll forgive them, no doubt, for correcting me out of kindness and self-interest both. The long and short of it is that I suggest some leniency for them--yes, no more than a topic ban, and not an indefinite one at that, but rather one year.

As for North, who has a banhammer hanging over their head, I have yet to look at all the diffs, though I looked at a bunch of the old ones related to this IP business. In my mind, past IP shenanigans (from 2009 and 2010) should not weigh as heavily as they seem to be weighed, and I fully support Newyorkbrad's "first choice"--a topic ban, not a site ban. I didn't know that North was (supposedly) such a terrible editor: my interactions with them have been pleasant enough (though, of course, their politics couldn't be wronger!), and I was surprised to see the charges and the proposed decision (but I wasn't aware of the two other topic bans, I admit). Until I see enough evidence to support a full site ban I can't support it, since I think they have something to offer us. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 17:31, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I only have and ever had one topic ban, that "two bans" is in error. North8000 (talk) 17:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I think they are counting your voluntary. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't a ban. I said that I'd be happy to stay away from the article for a year. Either way that year is long over and I've been happy to continue to not work on or worry about it. North8000 (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with Drmies and Newyorkbrad. Topic ban only. A site-ban is over the top. North does have something to offer Wikipedia. Also, I don't buy that bit about the socking. That's rubbish. Goethean's emotions about North8000 appear to have got the better of him. I still say a one way interaction ban on Goethean will solve all of Goethean's problems. It will certainly make Wikipedia far more pleasant for North. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Malke 2010, there's something in the very documents we're discussing that mentions that editors and arbs should be treated with some decorum; in fact, North is in trouble over comments made during the case. In other words, please tone it down some. Drmies (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies My comments aren't violating the Arbs proposal on decorum. In fact, they are reflecting what is in Goethean's FOF which addresses the 'antagonism' that Goethean has for North and others, as well as a proposed remedy in the Workshop. An interaction ban was suggested in the Workshop. It's a valid suggestion and one that should be implemented given all that Goethean has directed at North over the past several years. See for yourself above. Even now, Goethean makes comments at North. Arthur Rubin suggested that Goethean should be given something more than a reminder. The interaction ban might well solve some of the 'antagonism' problems. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Query

The proposal currently has:

The focus of this dispute is the history and politics of governmental regulation of the ownership of firearms. The initial locus was the gun control topic with a dispute within that article about whether government firearms policies in Nazi Germany helped facilitate the Holocaust. Related disputes have since arisen in Gun politics in the United States, Gun Control Act of 1968 and the biographical article on Stephen Halbrook, as well as other articles within the controversial gun politics category.

IMO and following the talk page discussions closely, it would be more apt to have:

The article involved in the dispute concerns the history and politics concerning governmental regulation of the ownership of firearms. The primary locus was an editorial decision as to whether some people have cited German gun removal from population groups prior to WW II as an argument against gun control, and, if so, what weight should be given to such a claim. Related disputes have also appeared in Gun politics in the United States, Gun Control Act of 1968 and the biographical article on Stephen Halbrook, as well as other articles within the controversial gun politics category

The editors, as individuals or as a group, do not appear to aver that the argument is right, so the actual issue is whether such an argument, invalid as it likely is, exists, and, postulating that it does exist, how to cover it in the article at issue. I suggest the current proposal, IMO, misstates the actual dispute. Collect (talk) 19:40, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

[1] — goethean 19:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems to have "Nobody is saying it was the cause. Nobody is saying it was the primary method etc. ." In short it falls a few yards short of the claim. And it appears to have been a response to an interesting edit: "If the ARGUMENT weren't controversial, you would have been able to dredge up better sources. You haven't. It is." Cheers. - my suggestion remains, as far as I can tell, accurate. Collect (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I could provide multiple diffs to demonstrate that contributors had argued that 'firearms policies in Nazi Germany helped facilitate the Holocaust', if it were necessary - though I see no reason why it should be. The simple facts of the matter are that contributors were abusing Wikipedia for the purposes of presenting this fringe pseudohistorical argument, and it makes no odds whether they personally believed it or not. And yes, the argument was about the Holocaust, not some vague comment about 'population groups', regardless of your attempt to spin it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

It is an absolutely incontrovertible fact that they passed the laws/regulations, and did some confiscations. The degree to which those actions were necessary, or beneficial to the aims of the Nazis are much more ambiguous and nebulous. I do not make any personal assertions or arguments as to those points. Although the Nazi's certainly thought it was important enough to implement these confiscations and laws, there is a good amount of logic in the "they didn't have enough guns to start with, so taking those few away didn't make much difference" argument imo. The argument is however made by the notable voices mentioned at various points through this dispute, and it is my belief that those arguments qualify as a "significant minority view" per WP:NPOV. Although the Nazi laws themselves get all the drama due to the Godwin, Halbrook's book spends most of its time actually discussing the Weimar laws, and how they assisted the Nazis getting power, and less on the laws implemented by the Nazis themselves. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Given that Halbrook's book (I assume you mean this one [2]) was published after most of what ArbCom has been concerning itself with took place, its content is irrelevant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:14, 23 April 2014 (UTC)