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Welcome to Wikipedia's Intelligent Design article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic.

Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here.

A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are NPOV: Pseudoscience, NPOV: Undue weight, and NPOV: Giving "equal validity". The contributors to the article have done their best to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the POV fork guidelines.

These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE).

Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON).

Dembski reviews peer review issues in:

[http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.09.Expert_Report_Dembski.pdf "As part of a monograph series with an academic editorial board (Cambridge Studies in Probability, Induction, and Decision Theory), The Design Inference is the equivalent of a journal article — the reason monographs get published as books is that they are too long to fit in journals."

This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See WP:NOT.

Notes to editors

This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory.
Although at times heated, the debates contained here are meant to improve the Intelligent Design article. Reasoned, civil discourse is the best means to make an opinion heard. Rude behavior not only distracts from the subject(s) at hand, but tends to make people deride or ignore what was said.
Please use edit summaries.

Quotations marks and footnotes

Before commenting on any part of the article, please make sure it is not clearly a direct quote. Quotes are indicated by quotation marks and a footnote. We cannot, no matter how much the language or the meaning of the quote might rile someone, change the quote.

Bogus popups revert

Could someone explain to me the purpose of this revert of a copyedit I worked hard on 10 days ago? -Silence 07:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Lets go step by step.

You removed wikilinks to universe and life. No defense there on my part I guess it is a matter of taste. Looking at it again there are plenty of wikilinks so deleting irrelevant wikilinks does no harm. My fault.
you replaced [Argument from design|intelligent cause] by [intelligent designer|intelligent cause] which in my opinion is not a good change. Intelligent cause here refers to the more broad nature of the intelligent cause such as the argument from design rather than the especific agent that does it.
You added evolution. IDers claim that ID is an alternative to evolution because they define evolution to include origin of life when in reality it does not. By using correct definition of evolution it is clear that ID really only challenges other origin of life theories.
Why remove "not as a valid scientific theory but " which is more descriptive?
experiment link. My fault you are right there.
Establishment Clause of the First Amendment link. I argue here that some people would like to follow the link to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment while other will like to go directly to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or for that matter to both. For example I am Spanish and my knowledge of the US Constitution is not that good. So I get a better undertanding of the issue by reading both articles and I guess other users will feel the same.
Intelligent design's to The. Small change that to me looks more encyclopedic.
"signs of intelligence" is redundant as a paragraph above already uses the term. So it is better to refer to "sign" alone IMHO.
the rest of the changes wich I believe are a couple of corrections in spelling and wikilinks where reverted due to unattentiveness for my part. Sorry.

I hope this explains my revert.--LexCorp 12:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, links to such broad articles are not useful here, at least in the very beginning of the article. It makes the first sentence too link-crowded, thus attracting the eye's attention away from genuinely vital links on specifically relevant topics.
You are incorrect in assuming that [[argument from design|intelligent cause]] is preferable to [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]] for two reasons. First, most obviously, argument from design is just a redirect to teleological argument, and there's no reason to link to a redirect here rather than the article itself. Second, most importantly, it is misleading to link to a tangentially-related subject matter when clearly what's actually being discussed in the sentence in question is not the "argument from design", but the intelligence that caused the design: the intelligent cause/intelligent designer. Remember that one of the most important principles in wikilinking is the "principle of least surprise": we should always avoid linking to an article that will confuse or surprise users who click on the sentence in question, and without a doubt that applies to a link to teleological argument from the phrase "intelligent cause", since anyone clicking a link would expect information about the cause itself (and the article for that is at intelligent designer), not about a group of arguments that are closely related to intelligent design in general.
That is your personal belief. I agree with it, but treating it as fact is inappropriate when 100% of all intelligent designers treat their belief system as a dispute over evolution, not over the origin of life. Misrepresenting what they themselves focus on doing (which is challenging evolution, even if they're going about it the wrong way by focusing on the related, but distinct, topic of the origin of life) is not remotely useful for helping people understand what the intelligent design movement actually beliefs and focuses on.
Please reread the entire lead paragraph, both your version and mine. I spent over and hour reading over both to carefully check for errors and redundancies in the overall flow of the paragraph. You apparently haven't noticed that the word "theory" is used five times in the intro in your version, and linked to twice—and, even worse, the word "scientific" is used twelve times in the intro alone, including in several places where it's not necessary, and twice in the sentence in question ("scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory")—that's just plain bad prose, and there's no other way of putting it. The reason that I removed that particular line is simply because it was 100% unnecessary: it was fluff, it didn't clarify anything that was unclear and just added unnecessarily wasted time and energy between the beginning and end of the sentence in question. Within that paragraph, we had already made the point that "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience"; to go on about scientific theories, which had already been touched on in the first paragraph, would be entirely redundant.
Yep. I checked every single link in the lead to ensure that it went to a real article (rather than a redirect), and replaced it with one where it didn't. Time-consuming, but worth it.
I don't really care. Link to those articles however you prefer. I was simply linking to a more accurate title for the specific article in question (Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, not just Establishment Clause); it doesn't make a significant difference.
I'm afraid that you are 100%, absolutely incorrect here. Please reread the sentences in question. "The" doesn't make the statement "more encyclopedic" here, it only makes it more ambiguous. It is also poor grammar, based on the context (start of a pargraph and new topic, and no in-sentence clues as to what "The" refers to, making it even worse than if you'd just used "Their").
I'm fine with that. Merely trying to avoid ambiguity. But in this case, unlike the previous one, the referent is made clear, and there is a valid reason not to repeat the word (whereas there is no reason not to repeat "intelligent design" in the aforementioned paragraph).
So do I have to redo them all? -Silence 12:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
1. I'd suggest, on the topic of origin of life, that a NPOV rewrite could resolve this. Ie., we can note that the official definition of what the theory of evolution is does not include an origin theory, and we can also note that however many ID proponents seem to feel evolution does speak to the question of origins. Ie., as in all POV disputes, we simply note what each side says/believes. Then the readers can realize for themselves that many IDer's don't even know exactly what they're discussing, without our having to point it out, which would be crossing the line. Kasreyn 02:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that that would be very useful information to have, and have well-referenced, in the article. However, I still think that for the lead, which should be as short and concise as possible, simply stating "evolution and the origin of life" is completely sufficient and satisfactory and non-POVed in its vagueness, and more informative and concise than the alternatives. -Silence 11:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot engage in discussions now due to real life issues. So feel free to make any changes.--LexCorp 11:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Research Program

The following material listed in "Peer Review" appears to cover research. Propose moving this to after "Peer review" with its own new subheading "Research Program" DLH 01:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The debate over whether intelligent design produces new research, as any scientific field must, and has legitimately attempted to publish this research, is extremely heated. Both critics and advocates point to numerous examples to make their case. For instance, the Templeton Foundation, a former funder of the Discovery Institute and a major supporter of projects seeking to reconcile science and religion, says that they asked intelligent design proponents to submit proposals for actual research, but none were ever submitted. Charles L. Harper Jr., foundation vice president, said that "From the point of view of rigor and intellectual seriousness, the intelligent design people don't come out very well in our world of scientific review."[71] At the Kitzmiller trial the judge found that intelligent design features no scientific research or testing.

We hear an awful lot about peer review and the so called conspiracy to keep ID out of legitimate science journals. What articles have Dembski, Behe, et al submitted to legitimate, peer reviewed science journals that have been rejected? Has Dembski/et al ever said "I submitted X to J only to have it rejected? I know Dembski has fgone on record saying he has no desire to submit anything for peer review and I know Behe said under oath that doing any actual testing of his own theories would not be fruitful, so he has never induleged in any actual testing of ID theory. Have the IDists EVER done any testing or made any attempt to submit their ID related works to a legitimate, peer reviewed science journal? Mr Christopher 17:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How could one test for the supernatural? Jim62sch 17:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Simple answer: no scientist would. See methodological naturalism. Science explicitly denies the possibility of supernatural causes for natural phenomena. If a person advocates a theory involving supernatural forces, fine, good for them. But it is by definition not scientific. Kasreyn 22:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review is what is being discussed; research, such as it is, is what gets reviewed in peer review. FeloniousMonk 01:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External Links

Restored two major links to ID Perspectives deleted by ScienceApologist alleging spam.

Research Intelligent Design is a Wiki systematically linking to ID materials. ID The Future is a web site/blog for major proponents of ID. DLH 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Assume good faith "To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. As we allow anyone to edit, it follows that we assume that most people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it. . . . So, when you can reasonably assume that something is a well-intentioned error, correct it without just reverting it or labeling it as vandalism. When you disagree with someone, remember that they probably believe that they are helping the project."

This Wikipedia site allows very little material by ID proponents. The link to Research Intelligent Design provided to direct users to a wiki with a mission to give reference material on Intelligent Design. This is an effort to give some semblance of NPOV to this page.DLH 16:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ScienceApologist deleted links alleging spam without discussion. This appears to violate Wiki Policy of "Assume Good Faith". I have provided further discussion deleting my previous description of ScienceApologist.DLH 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The major contributors for ID The Future are Michael Behe, William Dembski, Guillermo Gonzalez, Cornelius Hunter, Steve Meyer, Paul Nelson, Jay Richards, Jonathan Wells, and Jonathan Witt. That appears to be as stellar a list of major ID proponents as will be found anywhere. These clearly represent the minority view on ID. DLH 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article has 91 footnotes. Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section. The ID position is a minority position; adding spamlinks in some misguided effort to provide "balance" is actually undue weight towards a vansihly small minority position. You cite AGF yet all SA did was state in his summary why the additions were being reverted. Your accusation of vandalism is a different, and far more serious, matter. Step back and consider your actions; this is not the pot calling the kettle black but rather the pot calling the shiny new saucepan black. KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had already withdrawn my vandalism accusation. ScienceApologist claims it is "spam" without justification or discussion. You also reverted my edits without discussion. See Wiki Policy: "Reverting a good-faith edit may send the message that "I think your edit was no better than vandalism and doesn't deserve even the courtesy of an explanatory edit summary." It is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor. If you use the rollback feature for anything other than vandalism or for reverting yourself, be sure to leave an explanation on the article talk page, or on the talk page of the user whose edit(s) you reverted." Twelve reverts in a row suggest that no allowance at all is being given that I am attempting a "good-faith edit".

DLH 17:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely with KC. Undue weight is very clear on this. We no more need a "balance" of pro-ID links here than we need a "balance" of pro-Flat Earth links at Flat Earth. It would be a different story, IMO, at the article on Creationism, because Creationism acknowledges that it is a religious belief. Intelligent Design chooses to cast itself as science instead. What I keep trying to point out to DLH is that, by getting in the ring with science, it is therefore both valid and appropriate that ID be criticized from a scientific viewpoint. And, not surprisingly, the (vast) majority scientific viewpoint is that ID is a crock. Kasreyn 17:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page is supposedly to explain the minority position of "Intelligent Design." Yet it already lists 13 "Non-ID" (effectively anti-ID) to 6 ID links. Wiki policy is to clearly present BOTH the minority and majority positions. Considering the strong anti ID tone of this article, it is important to provide ID links where users can find complementary information and discussion. Just because you support the majority position does not justify reverting minority position links.DLH 18:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Asked for page protection for this section to stop this edit war. Three reverts already today.DLH 18:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the beef?

(Camera pans to host at center stage: Announcer, in exuberant voice: "It’s time to playyyy: 'What's my POV'", "Brought to you by the makers of Gene gun")

(Curtain opens: "And, behind Door Number One... "

([1]) ([2]) ([3]) ([4]) ([5]).

It has been this way from the very first edit, hasn't it? This quest to impose a particular POV on these related subjects of the creation-evolution debate is the cause of these reverts. The three-revert rule (WP:3RR) applies only to sole editors, not multiple editors seeking to defend amply debated and well-considered consensus. .... Kenosis 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There appear to be de facto coordinated effort to impose an anti-ID "majority" viewpoint and using multiple persons to get around the 3revert rule. I have had 14 reverts in a row. That does not appear to be allowing for ANY "good faith effort."DLH 19:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How can an effort be de facto coordinated? If it's consciously coordinated, then it's coordinated. If it's not consciously coordinated, how is it coordinated at all? I would suggest that to find your error you need look no farther than the quote marks you placed around the word majority. ID is a scientific issue, and there is a clear scientific majority against it. Kasreyn 19:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the word DLH might hae been looking for was "consensus". As a side note, I find it rather humourous that a project that does not allow "weasel words" has such a wiggly and subjective policy as AGF, which is prone to abuse and at a certain level, primarily that of its implementation and invocation, is very much at odds with other policies. An editor makes a highly POV or inaccurate edit (usually in violation of WP:V, WP:NPOV or other policies), then when it is reverted cries "good faith, good faith, good faith!" without ever once considering the nature of the reverted edt or the simple fact that the editor doing the reverting was acting in good faith.

Also, I think DLH misses the the mark regarding the presentation of what is clearly a minority viewpoint, and suggest that he or she read Undue weight. Jim62sch 17:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DLH that those two links, particularly ID the Future, are significant and should be included. The idea that "Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section" seemed pretty far off the mark. Obviously, there is much more to the topic of ID than is included in this article. The point of a Wikipedia article is to distill the most important parts into a coherent, balanced story. The point of the external links is to allow readers to get further details, often from non-neutral and/or less notable points of view that don't quite make the article. While many of the links that people try to add are linkspam, I think these links are appropriate.--ragesoss 18:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I have no problem with the inclusion of these should a consensus develop on it. In fact, though, one of these is linkspam to a blog (ID The Future) and should be excluded because it's a blog. The other is a rather interesting and increasingly well developed POV link (Joseph C. Campana's ID Wiki at Research Intelligent Design Wiki). If it's the consensus that this second link should be included, I'll back it – either way is fine by me. ... Kenosis 20:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see Wiki pages on how to make cites, and not to have Blogs on Wiki. HOwever, I find no discussion about whether or not to link to major blogs. Anyone else have any directions to such policy?DLH 00:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Under External Links I found the following:

Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard. I believe the following two apply and that [ID the Future] fulfills these two well.

What the article is about.
Website is of particularly high standard.

What other comments?DLH 00:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about the blog itself, nor does the blog meet the "Website is of particularly high standard" criterion. Campana's piece is something I need to think about before offering an opinion - at this point I'm neither in opposition to or supportive of its inclusion. Jim62sch 17:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A pro-ID blog run by Discovery Institute fellows will be notable enough to merit mention here, being that ID and the conflict around is largely a product of the Institute, so ID Future is fine to include. But ResearchID.org, a privately-run pro-ID wiki, is largely the product of one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor (JosephCCampana (talk · contribs)). ResearchID.org contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not a prominent player on the ID stage, and so does not merit mention in the article; there are much more prominent and influentional websites that come before it. FeloniousMonk 02:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One less link?

User:CloseEncounters seems to be determined to remove Discovery Institute, Center for Science and Culture and refer it to Discovery Institute (Hub of the intelligent design movement): they're both the DI, but wearing different hats on different home pages. Other than alerting readers to CSC being DI, was there a reason for the two links? ..dave souza, talk 18:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To show the duplicitous nature of DI and ID. Jim62sch 18:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it appears CE and DLH are interested only in promoting ID, not contributing positively to the greater wikipedia project, so I'd expect that. FeloniousMonk 01:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the Wikipedia community expects: 5 pillars policy including --- Assume good faith from others. Be open, welcoming, and inclusive. Strive for accuracy, verifiability, and a neutral point of view. --- I am trying to help towards that. Thanks for the welcome.DLH 01:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You've promoted the ID POV to the exclusion of all others since you've arrived, so I shouldn't be surprised. Assume good faith is not a suicide pact. FeloniousMonk 02:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just trying to provide some NPOV balance. From the text and discussions there seem to be plenty of "Non-ID" advocates around. There is an ancient proverb: The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. Proverbs 18:17 Someone has to provide some peer review here to keep the presentation honest:)DLH 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The discovery.org links were duplicate links; I consolidated the two. FeloniousMonk is deleting a legitimate link to a newly launched site, www.ReasearchID.org, the launch of which was announced at www.evolutionnews.org on June 24th. The site is "Currently collaborating on about 67 research applications of intelligent design." This is an exceptional new resource, and it is completely wrong to censor it from readers interested in the development of ID; there is no good reason for FeloniousMonk's deletion. Secondly, FeloniousMonk deleted Michael Behe's well-written and published response to the Kitzmiller decision while permitting a non-scientist's response (Kitzmiller: An Intelligent Ruling On Intelligent Design), not to mention a link to the anti-ID opinion of Judge Jones. In other words, FeloniousMonk allows ID opponents to respond to the ruling, but does not allow ID supporters to respond to the ruling. This is a blatant double standard that should not be tolerated on Wikipedia, which purports to strive for neutral treatment.

--CloseEncounters 02:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you're interested in genuinely improving the article and not promoting a particular viewpoint you'd be fixing the CSC link instead of deleting it.

ID Future is a notable and prominent site and should be included. But as I said above, ResearchID.org is a private pro-ID wiki run by one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor (JosephCCampana (talk · contribs)). It only contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not notable enough to merit mention here.

You really need to stop edit warring here, you've already violated 3RR 12 times in the last 24 hours and will be blocked if you continue. FeloniousMonk 02:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a poor categorization from a superficial look at the site. ResearchIntelligentDesign.org is a Wiki for the ID community to collect ID materials and links (without being continually deleted by the likes of FelloniusMonk). This edit war interaction shows all the more why it is an important link to include.DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's factual. The burden of proof is on you to prove it's not. FeloniousMonk 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk Please review the very high frequency of your reverts and deletes. If the shoe fits wear it. DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I abide by WP:3RR and don't generally make a habit of reverting the same article 12 times in one day as does CE. FeloniousMonk 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CloseEncounters - Please create a section if needed, and add your discussion on reasons for changes. Most of the present 'editors' here appear to delete all changees made directly without extensive discussion etc. etc. DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, a question for you arising from more than mere curiosity: what type of "proof" would be required to include the link to ResearchID.org on the 'Intelligent Design' Wikipedia article? -- Joseph C. Campana 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dembski and Behe as active editors of ResearchID.org. Barring that, Dembski and Behe or other leading ID proponents repeatedly citing ResearchID.org as source. Failing there, significant independant media coverage of ResearchID.org may qualify it, but it would have to be some signifcant and extensive coverage.

Right now there are 67 registered users at ResearchID.org. Of those, fewer than ten are the most active contributors, with the wiki's founder, you being the most active by far [6]. The work of one individual and his 10 or so occasional helpers does not make ResearchID.org a significant or notable source on ID in and of itself. FeloniousMonk 20:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, thank you for your response. I think these criteria are fair and it is true that we do not meet any of them yet. I hope to fulfill one, if not all of them, at a future date. At some point, I may return to inquire on your definitions of "active editors," "repeatedly cited," and "significant or notable." Again, I appreciate your very prompt response. Regards, Joseph C. Campana.

Improbable versus impossible events

Added See also link to Universal probability bound that provides a mathematical basis for addressing the Improbable versus impossible events issues and is a core ID argument.DLH 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see that that link may have gotten caught in the morass of changes and reverts. I personally will not oppose its inclusion. Disclaimer: Opinions of other editors may differ depending on your location in the minefield. ... Kenosis 22:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm...I'd have to think a spell...actually, though, DLH, given that Dembski defined it to support his forgone conclusion, it doesn't "prove" anything, it's just bad math...but, since ID is bad science (or really, no science at all), maybe it should be joined by bad math. Maybe. Hmmmm... Jim62sch 23:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's only marginally relevant here. Better placed at specified complexity if it's not there already. FeloniousMonk 23:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template placement

Doesn't it make more sense to have the more specifically relevant template in a more prominent position than the more generally relevant template? I switched the placement of the two templates only because the Intelligent Design series of articles, for obvious reasons, is more relevant to our Intelligent design article than the Creationism series of articles: both series are relevant, but the one specifically named after this page is the one we should use at the top of the article. For the exact same reason, the top of the Jesus article uses the template for the "Jesus" series of articles, and the template for the "Christianity" series of articles is lower-down on the page. -Silence 02:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the Creationism template being on top for early two years now, I'd think that subcategories always follow their parent categories, hence: Creationism (category) --> intelligent design (type). FeloniousMonk 02:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a category, this is a template. Templates do not go, on an article page, from "top-level hierarchy" to "bottom-level hierarchy" as one scrolls from the top to the bottom of an article: that would be horrendously inefficient and poorly-designed. People who had just arrived at the "Botany" article, for example, would have to wade through first a "Science" template, then a "Biology" one, then finally get to the template that's actually relevant to the article, the "Botany" listing! (Even though, obviously, a "Botany" template or an image is what should adorn the top of the article, since that's the most immediately relevant and significant topic.)

Moreover, although I didn't want to have to get into this issue, Intelligent Design advocates dispute whether ID is a form of Creationism or not; the only motivation for keeping the template at the top of the page (when it would work just as well slightly lower in the article) is to go out of our way to snub them, in this case at the expense of encyclopedic value. Moreover, the intro to "intelligent design" nowhere mentions "creationism". Neither does the "Intelligent design in summary" section. Indeed, the word creationism is only mentioned six times in the entire article text! And "we should keep it this way because it's always been this way" is a terribly weak argument; nothing on Wikipedia would ever improve if we truly cared more about tradition than utility to the reader.

I'm not arguing for the removal of the creationism template, merely for the placement of an even more blatantly relevant template (the ID one) in the most prominent position in the article, so that users who come here looking for intelligent design articles will be immediately given the most benefit possible—if someone was looking specifically for a listing of creationism topics, they would have searched for "creationism", of course. -Silence 03:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the difference between templates and categories on Wikipedia; I meant category in the general sense.

Well, I'm glad to see you're not arguing for the removal of the creationism template, since ID is by definition and necessity a type of creationism, something that is apparent when the article is read. If it needs to be better spelled out it can easily be added, there's no shortage of supporting cites available for that addition.

If you're going to stand on argument of "utility" or "benefit" for the placement of the Creationism of ID templates, favoring ID over Creationism strikes me as arbitrary since most ID enthusiasts coming to this article are creationists by definition and necessity again. FeloniousMonk 03:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Favoring ID over Creationism" in general would be arbitrary—there's no reason to place the ID template above the creationism one in ID/creationism articles that are primarily creationism-related. But favoring ID over creationism in the ID article isn't arbitrary, it's just common sense. Not putting the ID template on the top of the article just because ID is a type of creationism (which, again, IDers themselves ardently dispute, though I don't want to get into that issue) would be like not putting the Scientology-articles template at the top of the Scientology article and instead putting a general "religion" template there because Scientology is a religion.

How broad a template is is largely irrelevant in a discussion of template placement: what matters is how directly relevant it is to the article in question (and therefore how useful it will be to people just coming to the article), and the Intelligent Design template is clearly, inherently 100% relevant to the Intelligent design article, which makes it a better choice for the top of the article even if creationism is 99% relevant to the article (and it's probably closer to 75%, since there are noteworthy differences between the two movements: creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific). Also, the intelligent design article is written for the general public, not for "ID enthusiasts" (by which you seem to mean "ID believers"), so your above argument is a red herring. -Silence 06:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In an attempt to compromise, I've restored the ID template to the top of the page, but added a link to creationism at the very top of that template ({{Intelligent Design}}). If the view that ID is a type of creationism is as uncontroversial as you claim it is, then there should be no problem whatsoever with linking to creationism in the ID template. And now we get to actually start the ID article with links to ID-related topics! Much better, ne? -Silence 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, regarding your revert: no consensus was reached here. FM merely agreed that the ID template might be of value in the article. It may be, but not at the top. Additionally, when responding, let's try not to write pseudo-doctoral theses, shall we.

As for your purported compromise -- it's no compromise. Since you are attempting to change what we have already agreed upon here, I'm reverting once again. Try to gain consensus for your change before you make further changes.

In addition, the wholesale changes you made to other sections of the article are unsupported. Jim62sch 10:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with keeping the creationsm template first and the ID template second. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find it rather curious that three different people have endorsed a certain template placement without yet having actually explained their basis or justification in any way, shape, or form. Surely there is some reason to keep the status quo, hence your support for it? KimvdLinde and Jim62sch have both ignored the discussion entirely in favor of blind-support voting (in Jim62sch's case, accompanied by scornful and insulting bad-faith-assuming), and FeloniousMonk's explanations have been some of the flimsiest I've ever seen in my life, amounting to the fallacious "it's good because it's been there a while" and the patently false "broader, vaguely-relevant things must go higher than more specifically relevant things".

As a side-point, I've only been visiting this article for a short while, but purely from my experiences on this Talk page so far (which I expect, and hope, is quite inaccurate!), it's, ironically (and despite having a similar appreciation for science and references), almost exactly the opposite of the Talk:Evolution page: xenophobic (new people editing = changes must be bad!), ultraconservative (whatever's already in the article now must stay there forever!), hostile, unhelpful, unreasonable, dismissive, and completely uninterested in relevant discussion or the open exchange of ideas. It makes me sad. I hope this first impression is a false one, and the environment here is friendlier and more open than it's initially appeared. :/ Surely a little controversy isn't enough to burn away all the Wikilove. -Silence 14:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I follow the discussions at this page, but do not feel the need to add comments to every discussion. I think that an article should start with the general templates first before going into the more specific templates, just my opinion. As for your arguments, ID is not even pseudoscientific, and is just as religious as creationism. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did what? "scornful and insulting bad-faith-assuming" -- it was probably more condescending than insulting. In any case, I note that you are indeed new to this page -- did you bother to read all the archives or just the FAC part? Other than the clever use of a template refering to the watchmaker analogy as the lead template, you've really not brought anything new to the page.Jim62sch 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's compromise: it was insultingly condescending. OK? :) Good job keeping it up, too. Whee. -Silence 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So the Jesus article should start with a Religion template (and a History template?), then further down the page provide a Christianity template, then finally a Jesus template? Aren't we forgetting about practicality and accessibility in the midst of this arbitrary "most general goes at the top" idea?

Anyway, thanks for the reply to my comment. To respond: ID is certainly pseudoscientific, as it is "a body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is portrayed as scientific but diverges substantially from the required standards for scientific work or is unsupported by sufficient scientific research"; and I did not state that ID is nonreligious: I stated that ID, unlike creationism, is not explicitly religious (though it doesn't always hide it well). -Silence 15:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is the intelligent design article, not the Jesus article -- let's try to keep that in mind. Jim62sch 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Jesus article is a completely random example. I also used a Botany example earlier. Objecting to my valid analogy on the grounds that the two articles are not exactly alike is missing the point of what an "analogy" is: it points out a comparable quality between two unlike things in order to illustrate a point. If the two things were alike, it wouldn't be an analogy, now would it? :/ You're ignoring the meat of the argument, in favor of the plate. Plates are unnutricious, sir. -Silence 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reduce indent Meat: Kitzmiller decision -- ID is creationism. Dessert?

Complete and absolute non sequitur. Nobody in this entire discussion, myself included, has even once said "ID is not creationism". The argument is about whether or not a list of ID links is more relevant to ID than a list of Creationism links is to ID—which is about as silly as asking whether a list of Elvis Presley links is more relevant to Elvis Presley than a list of rock & roll links. It's blatantly obvious. Having the ID template at the top is both more useful to readers (since otherwise there's no major article on Wikipedia they can go to to immediately get to the ID template, and the "hub" ID forms betwee the entire ID series of articles is blocked off unnecessarily from easy "hopping" from one to another) and makes more sense layout-wise (since an ID-specific thing is inherently more relevant to ID than a corresponding Creationism thing, and the top of an article should be used for what's most specifically relevant, useful, and illustrative, not for a cheap opportunity to try to piss off IDers at the expense of encyclopedic usefulness). -Silence 03:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it were pseudoscience, there would not have been a victory in the Dover case based on the first amendment, because that amendment does not prohibite bad science. As for the templates, I make up my mind based on accesability, not how other articles do it, and could come to different conclusions for differetn articles, which is not a problem. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 15:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I see where the misunderstanding is. Pseudoscience means "fake science", not "bad science", KimvdLinde. The Greek prefix pseudo- means "false, counterfeit, fake". Pseudoscience isn't a type of science, it's nonscience masquerading as science. As for the templates, I, too, make up my mind based on accessiblity, not on how other articles do it, and would come to different conclusions for different articles—which is the main reason I came to the conclusion for this article that the template for the article itself (this article is still named "Intelligent design", right?) is more immediately relevant than a template for anything else. -Silence 15:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reduce indent Dollars to donuts, Kim knows what pseudoscience is. In any case, you missed Kim's point: the US Courts don't rule that the Establishment Clause has been violated absent a tie to religion, hence, ID is creationism (religion) cast anew -- that's it's pseudoscience (and in Dembski's case, pseudo-math) is just one more problem it has. Jim62sch 17:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how anything you said implies that I missed Kim's point. I'd expect Kim to know what pseudoscience is, too, but the context and contents of the above statement make it sound like Kim's saying that "ID isn't pseudoscience because a court said it isn't science", which seems rather backwards. On the other hand, it's quite obvious (even painfully obvious?) that both you and Kim have completely missed my point, as demonstrated by the fact that you argued against my "creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific" statement by, essentially, agreeing with it. You pointed out examples of how ID is implicitly religious and pseudoscientific, which is exactly what I was saying: non-ID creationism is more explicit in its religiosity, and usually makes significantly less effort to try and give the false impression of being scientific, secular, etc. -Silence 17:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so you value door number 3 more than what's behind door number 3 then? Jim62sch 21:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I'm just not ignorant to the existence of the door. If you'd rather walk face-first into it than perform the simple action of turning the handle and opening it, go for it. -Silence 03:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And here I was trying to avoid the cliché about wrapping paper. Jim62sch 22:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding lead section slightly

The current lead section is very well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate. A good job overall. However, in my opinion, it is not quite as balanced or explanatory as it could, and should, be. a significant problem is that it spends too little time actually presenting the basic ideas behind the concept of "intelligent design": only a sentence or two actually discuss the concept, and then two paragraphs are spent on its repurcussions and criticism—before most people will probably really understand what IDers advocate.

Obviously we shouldn't go into too much detail in the lead (especially since we have an "overview" section just below for explaining a lot of that), but a little expansion of the first paragraph wouldn't hurt. (And, if the first paragraph was expanded by about 50%, it would give us a good reason to merge the second two paragraphs into one, which I think is merited by their shortness and related scope.) I noticed, reading over this article's last FAC, that a large portion of the "oppose" votes were concerned that the article spent too much time on negative criticism and commentary, relative to time spent on actually describing the concept of "intelligent design" itself. It's no wonder that they would think that, when two-thirds of our lead section discusses criticism of and opposition to the movement, not the actual beliefs or activities or what-have-you of the IDers themselves! I have no problem with us including a significant amount of ID-criticism in the lead, since that is a major, and noteworthy, aspect of the movement (if not of the belief system itself...), but if we can chance that 1/3 ratio to 1/2 (or at least 2/5), it should allay a significant amount of the potential "too much negative commentary, not enough direct description" criticism.

I have no strong opinions on what, specifically, we should add to the first paragraph, as long as it is broad, well-referenced, and informative enough, but the best suggestions I can think of include adding a mentioning of the intelligent design movement, or possibly of some closely-related topics (such as the teleological argument or creationism). -Silence 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The intro is fine as it stands; accurate, balanced and well-supported.

The current balance struck in the article represents a careful effort to adhere to the Undue Weight clause of the NPOV policy which states: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views..." ID proponents say ID a scientific theory. The scientific community says no it's not. Since ID proponents are an extreme minority within the scientific community, something like less than 1%, the article is rather generous in the amount of weight it grants ID. Dictating a percentage of the article dedicated to criticism for "balance" as you propose is arbitrary; any accurate, complete and NPOV article will cover all significant viewpoints in whatever amount their significance demands.

You're mistaken in relying on the comments in the failed FAC. As a review of the FAC reveals, this article's FAC was scuttled by a few known ideologues and a good number of single-purpose accounts raising bad faith objections; knowingly tendentious and specious viewpoints. This will always be the case with this article. As long as those promoting the ID strategy of spinning facts edit Wikipedia, no genuinely neutral treatment of the topic will be accepted as balanced or neutral by ID advocates here. Experience by long term contributors has shown that those who object will never be satisfied by anything other than a perfectly pro-ID article. Our aim is for a genuinely accurate and balanced article, and the wide recognition outside of Wikipedia as such is proof enough the current article does that well. Just because ideological ax-grinders can scuttle its Featured Article status is no justification for sacrificing what we've achieved already.

Please seek and abide by consensus and not edit war over your proposed changes. FeloniousMonk 16:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please request protection on this article to stop these various unconsensused mass edits? ... Kenosis 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kenosis, my actual changes to the article are really just a large-scale copyedit, not a content change. I wasn't aware that prior consensus was required to even attempt to fix commas and clarify wordings. Is there a committee I have to go through to correct typos and fix wikilinks? :)

I'm also confused as to why you placed this request in this specific section. Nothing I wrote above has anything to do with any of the changes I made to the article; my proposal to slightly increase the amount of actual information about ID in the intro is entirely theoretical and long-term. Then again, I'm also confused as to why you didn't just ask me yourself, or point out some problem in any of my edits, if you wanted to discuss my recent copyedit... I thought protection was the last resort, not the first one? Odd. -Silence 16:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, as you can readily see by looking through recent edits, there have within the last few days been numerous controversial and repeated POV edits (on both "sides" of the debate really). Sorry to see these all get tangled up together in a morass. No doubt your proposals will get properly parsed and sorted out, but given that there are many editors who've demonstrated continuing interest in this article it appears that it will take a bit of time. It would be much more feasible for the various editors to parse if each edit were implemented point-by-point with an edit summary attached to each. ... Kenosis 16:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, please read what I actually wrote above. You sound like you are responding to my suggestions on autopilot, blindly assuming that I am advocating that we remove any of the criticism from the intro (which I am explicitly not) and completely ignoring all of my actual suggestions, which are thought-out, 100% consistent with NPOV policy, and quite important for this article's future.

Secondly, please actually look at the edits I made to the article before you make wild assumptions and accusations regarding their nature. I have yet to make a single real content-related change to this article; my edits have been purely stylistic, grammatical, etc. consisting almost entirely of copyedits. My actual edits to this article have exactly nothing to do with my proposed changes above; I would not make such dramatic changes to an article like this without first heavily discussing the matter and achieving consensus (hence my making this thread). My changes to the article are almost without exception both obvious and minor.

Thirdly, please drop the patronizing attitude. I've read the NPOV policy page dozens of times before, and not a single thing I said above is even remotely close to contradicting any aspect of Wikipedia policy. I did not "rely" on any of the criticisms from the FAC (at least some of which were indeed valid), I simply referenced them. And my argument for making the intro a more balanced mix of description of the ID belief and movement, and criticism and reactions thereto, was based on utility to the reader (because providing a little more information on the beliefs/movement itself in the lead is worthwhile) and bringing the article more closely in line with NPOV (because NPOV says not to give undue weight to minority views in articles comparing different views on an issue, not to neglect adequately describing the actual topic of an article when that topic is heavily criticized), not on arbitrary percentages—I apologize if I gave that impression with the middle segment of my post. Thank you for your time. -Silence 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When was the FAC? October 2005. This version was the FA candidate [7]. Since then the article has already been significantly rewritten incorporating what few good faith and relevant comments were made, so your attempt now is too late, overtaken by events. And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself. You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries and sought consensus first. FeloniousMonk 16:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, don't assume I'm an idiot: I already realize that any high-traffic article is going to have been rewritten in the last 9 months. :P I did not base any of my comments on the FAC; I made my suggestion independently, then as an after-the-fact addition made note of the main issue brought up on the FAC. I wouldn't even have referenced the FAC if I hadn't thought that adding the tantalizing possibility of FAhood might impel others to more seriously consider my recommendation, giving an impetus not to assume that the status quo is wholely inerrant; if I'd known what scorn you apparently have for the FA voters, I would have realized it was counterproductive and not bothered. Live and learn..

Your comments are ridiculous, and again imply that you are profoundly unfamiliar not only with the edits I've made to this article, but also, oddly, with the post I made only a few inches above when I started this section. o_O; Nothing I said in my post is "too late"; you fixate on the fact that I made an offhand mentioning of a months-old FAC, completely ignoring the actual contents of my recommendation, which is really a useful "outsider's perspective" (the most important perspective for an encyclopedia!) from someone first reading the intro paragraphs: a typical outsider will correctly recognizing that, as I mentioned, the intro is "well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate", but will find it unbalanced in that it spends too little time on actually explaining the belief system (and movement thereof) before it jumps into the critique. An outsider will not know or care that the current lead is a compromise that has been months in the making, requiring hard work and dedication from a variety of talented editors: what matters to readers is the result, not the process, and writing off this article's lead section's deficiency of balance just because the editors have Faith in it is counterproductive.

"And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself." - This is a big accusation. Can you back it up with any substance? What about my edits has caused you to think that I don't know "how undue weight applies to this topic"? Have you even read my edits? It increasingly doesn't sound like you have, you merely assume that they must be poorly-balanced because you reverted them. :P

"You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries" - Every single edit I made had a 100% accurate edit summary, and I took pains (by spacing out my edits over several changes) to ensure that any user could very easily see every single individual change I made simply by using the "compare" tool. Again, your accusation is utterly baseless.

"and sought consensus first." - Routine (albeit thorough and expansive) copyedits do not require prior consensus. I would have gladly discussed any aspect of any of my edits which anyone objected to; instead, I was met only with blind mass-reverts and insinuated personal attacks. I'm still waiting to actually hear anyone say what it is about any of my edits that is so objectionable. Is correct comma usage a violation of NPOV? Is avoiding unnecessarily linking to redirects controversial? Is wording sentences in a clear and concise manner a sneaky, bad-faith maneuver? Amazing. -Silence 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, I am unable to review all the points here at the moment. But I think you should know this. Some time ago (perhaps FeloniousMonk, ScienceApologist, or another long-term editor can give us a link) an agreement was made among many editors including those with pro, con and neutral views on the subject matter of ID. The agreement was, in essence, that the intro would consist of three brief paragraphs. The first would capsulate ID and who the proponents are; the second would summarize the position of the scientific community, and the third would summarize the current legal status of ID. If I am inaccurate in how I've represented this, could someone please correct it, or confirm it, perhaps provide a link to that archived discussion? ... Kenosis 20:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that accurately summarizes what was agreed upon here. It's in the archives, anyone who's actually interested can go find and read it. FeloniousMonk 21:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the information, Kenosis, but I could already deduce that from the way the intro is now. My point is that a more effective and useful summary for an article about intelligent design would spend more than two sentences in the intro on actually defining and explaining intelligent design itself! That is my only argument here: I have no problem whatsoever with the second two paragraphs, I simply feel that the first one should be longer, not because we should have a "balance" between pro-ID and anti-ID commentary (that would be silly and not helpful), but because we should have a healthy supply of actual description of ID and the ID movement before we jump into two full paragraphs of analysis, reactions, and criticism! I do not think that is a remotely unreasonable or odd suggestion, and I think most completely new users to the page, upon reading the current intro for the first time, would fully agree entirely with me that a slightly larger first paragraph, assuming it were just as well-referenced, informative, and neutral as the rest of the intro, would be highly beneficial both in terms of balance and in terms of informativeness. Just putting the thought out there. -Silence 03:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We could do it in one: "God created eveything and we can prove it". Jim62sch 22:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ID proponents and Disco instutite

Here at the evolution conference, there was a whole day symposium on the Dover case, and I asked one of the expert witnesses of the case about notable proponents not affiliated with the disco institute, and the answer by him was negative. There are not-affiliated proponents, but they have far less visibilty than the affiliated proponents. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So there remains an arguable demarcation problem in delineating what is a "leading" proponent? What else is new. Suppose I were to say all the DI affilates were merely getting out in front of an already 2500-year-old position? Any real difference? I think not. Fact is, the DI affiliates merely latched onto an old idea, plopped a new name on it and added some additional pseudoscientific speculations that couldn't possibly be objectivly double-checked, then secretly agreed to a political plan to change the heart and minds of the next generation to protect them from, god forbid, METHODLOGICAL NATURALISM!. ... Kenosis 04:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, like, yeah. ;) Jim62sch 22:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this article

is still a one-sided propagandaistic mess, good going folks--F.O.E. 04:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the standard of John 14:6, ID gets an "F". If you go by WWJD, at least be straight-up about Matthew 22:21, ID gets an "F". By the standard of methodological naturalism ID gets an "F". All these are POV's. Which standard(s) [choose one, or all of the above, or none of the above, or a write-in vote____________] is F.O.E. going by? Excuse me, I'm a bit PO'd right now. ... Kenosis 04:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the propganda would be better if it merely said, "God created everything, and Behe and Dumbski broke the Bible code that proves it". Jim62sch 22:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Problems at end of "controversy" section

(While I'm continuing to wait to hear any specific objections or criticisms of the copyedits I've made to the article (thus far, there have been none), I've continued work on the article at User:Silence/ID; as soon as someone explains what, exactly, is problematic with any of the edits so that the mess can be worked out through discussion, I'll return to making improvements to the article itself.)

In any case, while continuing to scan through the article, I came across the very first passage in the text which I've found to be significantly erroneous. At the end of the "Controversy" section (before the first subsection thereof), the referencing and clarity of the prose seems to take a sudden downward lurch in the last couple of paragraphs. Since this is a content-related issue, I decided to bring the problems up here:

"Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter," - This clause is misleading. It will cause readers to think that evolutionary theory is supposed to explain abiogenesis, but that it has tried and failed to. The reality of the matter is obviously quite different—abiogenesis and evolution are distinct occurrences, and evolutionary theory doesn't explain abiogenesis for the same reason gravitational theory doesn't explain the Big Bang. While copyediting, I thought initially to simply reword it to say "Even though evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter,", thinking that the next clause would explain some IDer misconception that evolution and the origin of life are the same thing, but when I read on I found that the rest of the paragraph seems to address something entirely unrelated.
"intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically," - They cannot? Is this a command? To "infer" is "to conclude from evidence or premises; to reason from circumstance; to surmise". Inferences can be either good or bad, either valid or invalid; ID proponents can certainly "infer" that an intelligent designer is behind the non-understood parts of the process (and have been doing so for decades), they just can't logically or reasonably infer it (which probably requires a citation).
"since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred." - This is a different issue, related to the God of the gaps. If this paragraph is meant to discuss the IDer argument from ignorance, rather than to explain the common IDer misconception that evolutionary theory encompasses abiogenesis, then the beginning of the paragraph shouldn't mention abiogenesis at all. Instead, it should simply say "Even though there are certain aspects of abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, that remain unexplained or controversial among biochemists," or something similar. I think that's what the author of this paragraph intended to convey, anyway: it's meant to explain that assuming ID's correctness on the basis that we don't understand everything is fallacious (which I think is better-explained elsewhere in the article, and in irreducible complexity).
The subsequent "pyramid" analogy is acceptable, but somewhat weak. Analogies of this sort are often the poorest way of encyclopedically explaining something, because it is an absolute requirement that the reader already be familiar with the analogous topic (in this case, kooky theories about aliens building the pyramids), and, in this case, optimally, that the reader agree with the encyclopedia's assertion that the belief is bogus, etc. I suppose it's not a big deal, but eventually we should probably be able to link to an article explaining the whole pyramid mysticist thing, so the minority of people unfamiliar with the topic can quickly read up to catch up..
The paragraph after this is unreferenced, and makes a lot of sweeping generalizations. It also seems a bit POVed, in the sense that it sounds like subtle advocacy (especially in contrast with the much more critical paragraphs on ID): "Many religious people... support theistic evolution which does not conflict with scientific theories." Whether or not theistic evolution conflicts with scientific theories depends on your definition of "conflicts". By the same logic, "intelligent falling" (God, not gravity, is the cause of objects falling) conflicts with science, but "theistic gravity" (both God and gravity cause object to fall) does not. I can see good arguments being made for such a distinction, but I don't think Wikipedia should voice its own opinion on whether theistic evolution conflicts with scientific theories or not; a citation (or better yet, a quotation) would solve this problem. -Silence 07:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, could you kindly number those entries to facilitate referencing them in discussion? The first you point out above ("Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter...") does not appear to me to be misleading on its face. ~~What is the proposed alternate language?.~~ Proposed replacement with "Even though evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter" also seems OK to me. ... Kenosis 13:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

?? Number them? You mean replace my bullet-points with #s? OK... And, it most likely doesn't seem misleading to you because you aware of the fact that evolutionary theory and abiogenesis are two completely distinct biological theories, neither one dependant on the other. ID commonly conflates the two, assuming that the origin of life is just a part of evolutionary theory, but this isn't the case. Most people aren't aware of that: that's why it's an encyclopedia's job to clear such misconceptions up.
(Incidentally, this confusion of distinct concepts is why the article's intro used to not mention evolution at all, before I fixed it (though it's now been mass-reverted without explanation along with my other edits, so it'll have to be reinstated again when possible): because ID literature and activities are constantly presented as an attack on evolution, yet the actual idea of an intelligent designer being the cause of life is more relevant to the origin of life than to evolution; that's why creationism and evolution sometimes go hand-in-hand, as in theistic evolution, but you'll have a harder time finding "theistic abiogenesis" :) So someone misunderstood the fact that ID's attacks are more relevant to the origin of life than to its evolution, and improperly removed the much-needed evolution reference in the lead, even though the sentence in question is explicitly about what IDers claim ID is! The sentence begins, after all, with "Its leading proponents... say that intelligent design is...") -Silence 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE. #1: As I said, I don't see the current language as misleading, and also don't see how it would necessarily seem misleading to someone who's not familiar with the distinction. It's not misleading on its face because the language "evolution does not explain abiogenesis" makes no inference about whether evolution theory seeks to involve an explanation of origins as well as progressions. As I said, I do not see a problem with the words "evolution does not seek to explain", nor with "does not involve explanation of abiogenesis", nor with some other accurate way of saying it. But I'm just one editor. Thanks for numbering the issues; it makes it much easier to refer to them. ... Kenosis 23:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point Silence is making at #1, but I also agree with Kenosis that the existing content is not misleading. I have no objection either way. FeloniousMonk 23:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE. #2: ("Intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically.") The words "...cannot logically infer..." smacks of positivism. The words "...cannot reasonably infer..." may appear reasonable, but beg for argument about the term reasonable (to whom? Dembski? he obviously thinks such an inference is reasonable; Judge Jones? he obviously concluded it wasn't, etc. etc. ad nauseum with the same POVs that already permeate the discussion). The words "cannot properly infer", to try another phrase,may also be reasonable, but seems to me to beg yet further discussion.

RE #1, #2, #3 combined, all referring to components of one sentence. My conclusion, and please pardon me for jumping to it, is that there is one too many clauses in this sentence. As Silence already pointed out, that sentence must be taken in context of the entire paragraph which reads as follows. ... Kenosis 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. The inference that an intelligent designer (a god or an alien life force)^[1] created life on Earth has been compared to the a priori claim that aliens helped the ancient Egyptians build the pyramids.^[2]^[3] In both cases, the effect of this outside intelligence is not repeatable, observable, or falsifiable, and also violates the principle of parsimony. From a strictly empirical standpoint, one may list what is known about Egyptian construction techniques, but must admit ignorance about exactly how the Egyptians built the pyramids. . . . 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence, incorporating Silence’s points #1, 2, 3 above, reads at present: “Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. “

Suppose that sentence were to read: “Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot properly infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically.“ In other words, what is the purpose of the clause “... since they have not shown anything supernatural to have occurred." ... Kenosis 14:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, rephrasing the "cannot infer" statement is necessary for accuracy, but doing so, as I mentioned above, "probably requires a citation" so Wikipedia itself doesn't have to judge the validity of inferences. Until we find a good one, though, I'll change "logically infer" to the vaguer "properly infer" to avoid some of the possible criticisms you mentioned above until we can fix the problem.
As for the latter clause, I don't think it's too complicated in context. Try reading the current version on the Intelligent design page (which I've rephrased a bit) in its context; I think the wording overall works, it's the factuality that is more potentially worrying. There are many longer or more convoluted sentences on the page.
The purpose of the "since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred" clause is to explain that if they did show that something supernatural has occurred (rather than merely attempting to discredit current scientific explanations for something, then leaping to the non-sequitur conclusion that it must have a supernatural cause), then it'd be perfectly fine to infer a supernatural cause, all the more so if there was no viable scientific rationale. The problem the paragraph points out is that in lieu of substantial evidence for such a supernatural occurrence, merely arguing against current natural ones is nothing but a fallacious argument from ignorance. -Silence 14:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping you'd catch this here, but the last clause (#3) is arguably circular upon analysis of its content. How does one show that something supernatural has occurred? that's what the whole ID debate is about, really (that and a political agenda of course). Also, perhaps the first clause (#1) belongs in a separate sentence or different place. If I recall correctly, that first clause was tacked onto the front of the sentence in order to attempt to provide further context for the reader (i.e. I think #1 was the last clause to be added). ... Kenosis 15:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After I reverted Silence's lastest mass rewrite of the article without consensus, based on discussion here, I changed the sentence in the article "Even though evolution theory does not explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred." to read "Though evolution theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred." This was the only point so far discussed that possibly could need changing. By noting that evolutionary theory does not seek to address the issue of origins, we avoid the issue altogether. FeloniousMonk 15:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence you just wrote, "Though evolution theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, intelligent design proponents cannot infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred.", doesn't even come close to actually making any sense. There is no meaningful link whatsoever been the "Though evolution" clause and anything that comes after "from nonliving matter". This is the sort of mistake that happens when you ignore the actual context and meaning of the sentence and discussion and just blindly change it to whatever version you (mistakenly) thing people most explicitly supported. Do you care about improving this article, or about devising a suitably elaborate and well-polished maze of bureaucracy for us to work through before we can make those improvements? The version that was actually on the page following the above discussion made logical and grammatical sense, was consistent, was factually accurate, and was sensible, relevant, meaningful, and significant. Yours is just subtly non sequitur-laden silliness, almost like a snippet from a Mad Libs ID book where random pretty-sounding words are strung together until they sound OK, but have no real meaning. -Silence 15:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Deconstructing the sentence:

Evolutionary theory does not seek to explain abiogenesis - True, no where does the modern synthesis claim to explain "origins."
ID proponents attempt to infer that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, -Correct, ID proponents are taking what they see as a "hole" in science and filling it with a "designer."
ID proponents have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. - True, ID proponents have presented no actual evidence of design; ID is a series of arugments supported by inferences, not evidence.

ID proponents insist that evidence shows an intelligent designer is behind the origin of life, which they say evolution (or more often "Darwinism"/"Neo-Darwinism") fails to address. But ID proponents misrepresnt two things they have no actual evidence of actual "design" (AKA: a supernatural occurance) and modern evolutionary theory, the modern synthesis does not address the issue of origins/abiogenesis.

There's no non sequitur there, that is unless you are unaware of or are ignoring what actual ID proponents are saying. FeloniousMonk 19:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In response to your claims in the "Copyedit" section: I actually went out of my way to create that section because it represents one of the only actual changes in meaning or message that any of my copyedits even touched upon, and you've been repeatedly berating me for not first discussing any content-related changes (mainly due to the fact that you haven't actually read most of my edits and thus mistakenly assumed that simple copyedits were content-related changes), so I'd have thought you'd be happy—but of course not, regardless of what I do, it'll be the wrong thing as long as it involves any new ideas that you haven't yet signed in triplicate and pressed your Royal Seal upon. :/ Oy.

So he who is allegedly so stung to the core by sarcasm [8] adopts to sarcasm and a not so subtle insult to mistate the reality of this article (oh, dear, I'm not acting in good faith, am I?). My, my, my, how the worm has turned in a mere twenty-four hours.

By the way, it needs my royal seal too. And Guettarda's, and Kenosis's and enough people to reach a little thing I'm not sure you apprehend, consensus. Jim62sch 20:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do you even want me to explain how badly you misinterpreted the results of the discussion, how you were misled in the final version you settled on when you suddenly interjected yourself in the discussion after we'd already resolved most of the confusion and discussion related to the abiogenesis paragraph? It doesn't sound like you do, you're simply convinced that your version is the inerrant people's choice and mine is consensus-lacking (and yours isn't? o_O;) and flawed. The reality is substantially different. Your version, which I rejected immediately upon actually reading the entire paragraph in one go-through, is actually two unrelated paragraphs randomly smushed into one. The first two clauses is the start of a paragraph about one topic; and the rest of the paragraph is the end of a paragraph of a completely unrelated topic. The former hypothetical paragraph is about the distinction between scientific theories regarding evolution and ones regarding the origin of life, which are distinct, contrary to popular IDer misconception—and you corrected the factual inaccuracy in that respect; but at the same time, you left it bizarrely conjoined with the unrelated rest of the paragraph, which is actually about the argument from ignorance which IDers suffer from when they assume that any evidence against a scientific theory is evidence for intelligent design.

I can see how you could be misled upon a cursory examination of the paragraph, but I'm surprised that you'd be so hasty and unobservant as to go out of your way to choose a flawed, hybrid non sequitur paragraph over one which had actually been fixed by me! Bizarre. You didn't even discuss it, you simply assumed that your first-glance interpretation of the situation was 100% correct and mine was 100% incorrect. And you accuse me of acting against consensus? There's a difference between acting without explicit consensus and going out of your way to violate what several people have agreed to without any prior discussion: the former is what I've done, the latter what you have. -Silence 20:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Now see, here we have an example of the misunderstanding of consensus. See, we've gone through all this already. Read the archives (yes, they're a bit long, a bit tiring, but you can do it, I know you can). So, offer up your version (which you do below) and we'll talk about it. No timetables, no jumping to contusions that one person saying "I don't care either way", or no comment in an hour equals consensus. Jim62sch 20:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hypothetical paragraph 1 (first two clauses)

Hypothetical paragraph 2 (rest of para)

Although evolutionary theory does not seek to explain the origin of life, only the process by which organisms biologically diversified over time from some form of common descent, intelligent design advocates commonly conflate evolution with the various theories about life's abiogenetic development from inorganic matter. Arguments against evolution frequently take the form of arguments against abiogenesis, and vice versa. [elaboration here]

Although there are certain aspects of abiogenesis, the generation of life from nonliving matter, that remain unexplained or controversial among biochemists, intelligent design proponents cannot logically infer that an intelligent designer must be behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically, since they have not shown that anything supernatural has occurred. [pyramid comparison here]

Copyedit

It's been over 38 hours since User:FeloniousMonk and User:Kenosis mistakenly reverted many of my edits to this article, under the false impression that I was making significant content-related additions (in Kenosis' words, "sneaky insertion of new material without edit summary", though I both used edit summaries and didn't insert any new material; in FeloniousMonk's words, "edit warring for new content", though there was neither edit warring nor significant new content involved), when in reality my edits were essentially a large-scale copyedit and stylistic cleanup, and the only "insertions" I made were stylistic: a new, relevant-to-the-context image to help readers get through the many pages of text more readily, and clearer rewordings of already-present information. Kenosis and I have since worked out the unfortunate misunderstanding on our talk pages, but FeloniousMonk has been uncommunicative, so it seems I'll have to give up on waiting for a clarification from him (and from User:Jim62sch, who seems more interested in a fight than in discussion or cooperation) of what problem he had with my later edits.

I'll gladly discuss any aspect of any of my edits which anyone objects to, but since it's been almost 40 hours and I still have yet to receive even a single specific complaint or nitpick or criticism about any aspect of the last reverted edits I made, I will begin to resume copyediting the article unless anyone has such an objection. You are free, and always have been, to read through all of the changes I have made to the article; if for some reason you're having trouble using the edit history tools, then I'll simply provide all the edits in question below, which you can review at your convenience. You are similarly free, obviously, to either fix them yourself (without a blind mass-revert) or point them out so I can fix and/or discuss them; indeed, I welcome such criticism and feedback, as it is infinitely more productive than the vague personal attacks I've been receiving so far in lieu of specific complaints about the actual edits in question.

00:24 13/06/06 — Copyedit of lead and "intelligent design in summary". Clafiy wording, fix wikilinks, correct grammar, etc. (Note that the templates are returned to their original placement in my later edits, per feedback.)
06:45 26/06/06 — Reposting of my previous edit following #Bogus popups revert Talk page discussion, with a few minor changes, such as to spacing. (Note that the editor-note is restored in my later edits, per feedback.)
02:25 27/06/06 — Templates moved back, spacing change, fix typo ("Wikisouce"), restore much-needed and infinitely relevant link to evolution. (Universal probability bound link removed due to subtle edit conflict, subsequently restored.)
08:54 27/06/06 — Templates moved back (I apparently misinterpreted the #Template placement Talk page discussion as conclusive); rename "intelligent design in summary" to "overview" to eliminate unnecessary complexity. Copyedit and trim "Origins of the concept" of minor irrelevant dates, removing excess tangential details about the various philosophers referenced (that's what the wikilinks to their pages are for) which bloated the paragraph. Fix grammar, MoS adherence, clear wording. Remove unintended implication of the end of the second paragraph (that Darwin was somehow part of the proto-ID movement). Add links to more relevant and specific articles referenced (e.g. evolution of the eye, evolution of flagella), fix wikilinks.
09:06 27/06/06 — Merge two short, related paragraphs in "Overview" into one paragraph. Move a paragraph unrelated to the origins of ID from "Origins of the concept" up to "Overview", where it belongs. Add free-use image of Thomas Aquinas, the most famous postulator of the argument from design for the existence of God, to the "origins of the concept" section to liven up the section (thus drawing more readers into the article in general) and improve paragraph aesthetics a bit. Minor copyedits to "origins of the term", such as fixing wikilinks (didn't notice the "telological" typo until yesterday, though), clarify wording and sentence structure, correct grammar and style.
10:06 27/06/06 — Revert Jim62sch's previous edit, primarily because it had caused the "creationism" template to appear on the page twice due to sloppy page-checking.
12:19 27/06/06 — Resume copyediting the article now that Jim62sch has done his template-revert properly. A few edits to "origins of the concept" to compensate for some newly-added information (though this new information 82.31.176.160 had added was subsequently removed, so it didn't end up mattering). Copyedit "irreducible complexity", fixing grammar, wikilinks, consistent referencing style, and the unclear, redundant wording of "In the context of intelligent design, irreducible complexity..." Add "he asserts" qualifier to Behe's analogical claim that mousetraps are useless if you remove any of their components, since a later reference disputes this assertion.
12:29 27/06/06 — Reinstate previous edits to "irreducible complexity" after KillerChihuaha accidentally reverts them due to edit conflict. (He was attempting to revert 82.31.176.160's Thomas Browne-related insertions, but his edit came less than a minute after my own.) Also, continue copyedit, fixing a few errors in wikilinks, wording, and consistency in the "specified complexity" section.
15:01 27/06/06 — Continuing copyedit, fixing a few misplaced references in the "irreducible complexity" section, and adding link to universal probability bound in the article, since if it's noteworthy enough for the "see also" list (where it had recently been added) it's presumably noteworthy enough to mention in the article proper. Copyedit "fine-tuned universe" for clarity, word choice, wikilinking, and grammar. Rename poorly-formatted and unencyclopedic section title "The designer or designers" (the section itself doesn't concern itself with the question of singularity v. plurality, so it's also misleading) to simply "Intelligent designer". Copyedit this section as well, fixing wikilinks, sentence structure, consistency in a couple of areas. Change "from which intelligent design proponents can only escape by resorting to religious creationism or logical contradiction" to "from which intelligent design proponents can only escape by resorting to logical contradiction", because the former sentence incorrectly implied that religious creationism is somehow immune to the "turtles all the way down" infinite regress problem. Renamed "Intelligent design as movement" to simply "Movement", which works just as well and is clearer and quicker. Add spacing between image and first paragraph to make editing easier. Rename "intelligent design controversy" to just "Controversy" for the same reasons. Shrink overlarge TOC a tad by changing unnecessary subsections of "External links" into simple bolded lines, which work just as well but keep the article tidier.
16:00 27/06/06 — In response to FeloniousMonk pointing out the already-present error in the article which I unknowingly echoed when I reworded a certain line (and since no other problem in my edits had, or has, yet been pointed out), reinstate previous copyedits, but with the error in question (the first sentence of "Irreducible complexity") fixed. (This subtle error has subsequently been restored to the article when my edits were mass-reverted a second time, without justification.)

That's all so far. I'll reinstate my copyedit next, if there are no objections to any of the changes listed right above, and then continue with the much-needed changes. Thank you for your time. -Silence 06:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I looked over your copyedits and found nothing objectionable. Kasreyn 10:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm going to continue the copyediting now; if you, or anyone else, does find anything problematic in any of them, tell me about it, and I'll gladly make whatever changes are necessary. -Silence 10:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There was only mild consensus for one single change, so I've reverted your mass rewrite of the article without consensus again.

Dumping a laundry list on us of what you think needs to be changed that's 5 or 6 paragraphs long and expecting us here to sort through it is ridiculous. Post your proposals one at a time, and work toward consensus for each, then place it in the article. That's how this article came to be where it is. Also, lack of response to proposed changes is not consent. FeloniousMonk 15:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Y'know, I tried explaining that, in almost those words, before. As far as concepts go, it isn't exactly M-Theory is it? Jim62sch 21:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When I made my edits without writing up a detailed laundry list of exactly what changes I was making, I was bitched at for being sneaky and hiding all my changes (sure, having all the changes immediately and easily accessible in the edit history is "hiding" them... I guess that makes every Wikipedia editor in the world a lying sneak..), and my edits were ignored and dismissed. When I took the time to write up a detailed, elaborate rationales and lists of all the individual changes in each edit, I was bitched at for writing "pseudo-doctoral theses" and "dumping a laundry list on us", and my edits were ignored and dismissed. There is literally no pleasing you people.

So now I have to waste months of time (both my own and other users') painstakingly sifting through one or two comma-fixes and wikilink-hops and sentence-clarifications a week, to do what would otherwise only take a day or two? I'm fully willing to discuss any of the changes I make which anyone has any sort of specific objection to; I'm willing to compromise, I'm willing to reason, and I'm willing to accept new ideas and recommendations for how best to improve the article. But I'm not going to jump through hoops to pass uncontroversial, simple, and utterly routine copyedits which noone actually objects to through your arbitrary standards just for the privilege of being allowed to improve your article. There are a limited number of hours in a day. I'd rather spend them improving articles and discussing ways to improve articles than rephrasing my "laundry list" in 17 different ways and spreading them out over a ridiculously long span of time because you're too lazy to read them—or to read my actual edits to the article. I came here to improve an encyclopedia to the best of my ability, not to waste days sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles. -Silence 15:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you think working with other editors in achieving consensus is nothing more than "sifting through meaningless bureaucratic hurdles," then you might want to reconsider your goal. Apparently you failed to read what it says at the top of this page - "This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them." Your sense of entitlement for your personal edits is nothing more than a form of carte blanche. I can't begin to tell you how many hours, days and weeks I had to debate to get my early edits into this article. Kenosis can say the same. Are you special?

We're addressing the points you've raised here. We've nearly completed discussion on the first one already. Patience my friend. FeloniousMonk 15:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Well, if you think working with other editors in achieving consensus" - Strawman. What I have been repeatedly asking for (and denied) is working with other editors to achieve consensus: I've asked for actual criticisms of any of the edits I've made that have been reverted, so I can respond and we can work out the problem together and come to an agreement, then move on to the next one. What you've requested in the exact opposite of "working with other editors in achieving consensus": you want me to waste months of time mining over trivial, simple copyedits that noone has any problem with because you're too lazy to read through a simple, easily-accessible list of 10 edits that I spent hours of time out of my day to provide you with. I'll gladly spend all the time you want going over each and every one of those edits, if you have a problem with any of the textual changes in them. If you prefer to work methodically and slowly, feel free to start off with problems in the changes I made in the first edit, then move on to the next one, etc., and I'll fully discuss the issues with you until we can come to an agreement. But I'm not going to waste both my time and everyone else's by listing, and relisting and rerelisting the exact same information over and over again, stretched out for no real purpose over ridiculous lengths of time when we could, instead, be continuing to improve the article. By wasting time on things we don't disagree on (such as, in all likelihood, 99% of the changes I made in my above edits), we leave ourselves no time to fully discuss things we do disagree on (such as the templates and images). Thus far, noone has objected to or in any way criticized any textual change I've made to the article; the only objections have been related to template-placement and image-placement, both of which I've stopped adding to the article now that there are concrete objects to talk over. So why waste so much time on such trivial, obvious changes? My edits are not "substantial" in that they make any major changes to the text! They only appear substantial because they're such a large number of minor, obvious grammatical fixes and style/consistency fiddlings. The topic of this article is controversial, but the Manual of Style and the grammar of the English language are not! And since just about all of my above edits relate to the MoS or basic English language principles, not to intelligent design itself, your concern is fundamentally misplaced here. I've made the exact same edits to hundreds of other articles, and never once have I received a major complaint. Ironically, I haven't received a complaint from here, either—noone's actually objected to any of my textual changes. You just objected to the fact that I dared to make them without The King's Royal Seal having been stamped on them after months of redundant bureaucratic haggling: you haven't cited any actual problems or substantial issues, you've merely protested that I dared to edit the article without your specific written approval. As such, your meta-objections are superficial and bureaucratic, not significant, article-related critiques. -Silence 16:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Silence has a point. Felonious Monk, you claim he has edited without consensus, but apathy is no excuse. I don't see many people in a big hurry on this talk page to substantively dispute Silence's attempted changes. When a person suggests changes on a talk page, waits a reasonable amount of time, recieves no reply, and goes ahead and edits the article in good faith, that is not editing "against consensus", because the consensus is apparently apathy. If the consensus fails to present its opinion in a timely manner, it follows that the consensus must not care much about the edit in question. Ignoring an editor cannot be used as a way to withhold consensus. If you're going to revert Silence's edits, it is your responsibility to provide a cogent argument against them here. Kasreyn 18:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but the assumption of "apathy" is a rather bogus one. Most of us have other articles we work on (as well as jobs IRL) -- we don't hover around this article waiting to see who edits it next, and whether their edits are valid. Besides, where's the fire? Is there a compelling reason Silence wants to design this article in his own image in less than 6 days?

Also, what, pray tell, is a "reasonable amount of time"? An hour? A day? A week?

Finally, that Silence edited the article "in good faith" is of course an assumption that may or may not be warranted (yes, yes, yes, AGF is one of the cornerstones of wiki, but as someone pointed out earlier, it is not a suicide pact). As far as editing against consensus, the statement at the top of this page, the statement pointed out by FM, covers that -- read the talk page, which, while not being pointed out specifically, includes the archives. Jim62sch 21:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Kasreyn. I don't exactly object to the fact that Felonious took: there's no time limit on objecting to edits, he's completely free to criticize any aspect of any of my edits whenever he wants. The problem, rather, is that he still hasn't done so: he's repeatedly reverted dozens of edits without ever even once pointing out any problem with the textual copyediting I (and, recently, Jim) have been working on. The problem isn't so much that he's apathetic to the changes as that he's apathetic to discussing them: he has had plenty of opportunity to do so, but he seems more interested in edit-warring and ultimatums than in consensus-building and compromise, despite his rhetoric to the contrary. I don't hold that against him: it's completely understandable to grow increasingly attached to a certain version of an article over time, when you've worked so hard on it. But at the point where it gets in the way of any real progress occuring, and where it has no basis in any real content dispute, it goes from being just an annoying diversion to being an actual harmful force freezing the article from any improvement. That's no good, chaps. :/ [unsigned by User:Silence 29 June 2006]

There's been ample discussion of the first of Silence's proposed changes at Talk:Intelligent_design#Problems_at_end_of_.22controversy.22_section. I'll tell you the same thing I told Silence at my talk page: It's his method that's the problem there. I actually agree with many of his points, but they need to be discussed as this is not a simple subject. Silence shouldn't assume that no one responding to all of his proposals after 36-48 hours indicates consent; to do is patently unreasonable considering the number of proposed changes he dumped here. There has been ongoing discussion there of the first of his proposed changes, with the result being there is no consensus on that first point. It was still being discussed when he decided to rewrite almost the entire article. Taking that to mean that he can yet again force in a massive rewrite of many points and it should not be reverted is what's causing his problems here, not me, or Jim, or Kenosis, or anyone else. Dumping a laundry list 7 or 8 paragraphs long on us of what he thinks need to be changed and expecting us here to sort through it in a day or two is ridiculous. One-point-at-a-time is the way it is properly done. Again, the absence of response to all proposed changes is not consent and discussion has been taking place. If you or Silence think that it's too slow then there's 1,221,217 other articles here that can be improved in the meantime. If some have ignored his proposals here, and it appears some have, it's not surprising considering his method of huge, mind-numbing proposals. I'll be happy to continue considering and discussing each of his points as I have been, but he's going to have to make the case for each, abide by consensus and work with the present long term editors. Particularly since none of his proposed changes addresses glaring factual errors, rather matters of nuance and style. Our goal here has always been an accurate and stable article, not editing for editing's sake. FeloniousMonk 19:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, there has not been "ample discussion" of my proposed changes, really, at #Problems_at_end_of_.22controversy.22_section: it's been a rather focused discussion of a single, solitary part of the article which I only recently changed after gathering support and feedback in the discussion section in question. Your characterization of that discussion is wildly off-base, skewed away from any real understanding of the exchange of ideas that we were having and towards a silly attempt to vilify me with misinterpreted "evidence" of my wrongdoings. I will respond to your misconceptions about that section in the section in question, where there's more room.

Furthermore, you are either horribly misunderstanding almost everything I've said so far, or deliberately misrepresenting my points; I hope it is the former. You claim that I "assume that no one responding to all of his proposals after 36-48 hours indicates consent"—this is patently false. I didn't expect anyone to respond to all of my proposals—I didn't, in fact, ask that anyone respond to any of my proposals! All I asked was a very simple, easy request: if you object to any of the textual edits I have made to the article, then say what is wrong with them. Give me an example, any example of all, of something specific you object to about the changes I've made to the article, so we can actually discuss the matter, rather than just trading blows over nothingness. And after what has actually been 16 days since I first started editing this article!, and 53 hours since FeloniousMonk first (deliberately) reverted my copyedits, I still haven't gotten even one substantial or specific criticism or complaint regarding the copyedit itself. This is remarkable. Surely there is something about it you disagree with—hell, even I admit that, as a matter of statistics, some of my minor edits were probably in error (though I've already corrected the ones I've noticed, such as "telological" and "wikisouce"). So why is there so much difficulty and melodrama in the simple task of concretely explaining what problems you've found with my copyedits, so we can work out a solution? I don't ask that people respond to my proposed changes, only that if they object to an edit, they say what's wrong with it rather than feebly dismissing it as "lacking consensus". (Since when do English grammar or the Manual of Style require page-by-page, incident-by-incident consensus approval anyway..?)
"it's not surprising considering his method of huge, mind-numbing proposals." - ... Which I would never have bothered with if you people hadn't forced me to with repeated threats, personal attacks, insults, and dismissals when I tried to improve the article without excessive jabbering about it beforehand. As I said above, I can't win: whenever I make a change without discussion, no matter how minor, it's rejected and ignored on principle alone, with no regard for what actually matters (that is, the article itself—remember?) and I get attacked for it, and whenever I try to start a discussion, it's rejected and ignored as too verbose or not verbose enough or too listy or too paragraphy or too X or too not-X, and I get attacked for it. Lose-lose situation. Pretty much the only way I can actually do anything productive is to give up on ever improving this article altogether, but just move on to somewhere else. And I get the very strong feeling that that's what would make FeloniousMonk happiest of all, since he's made it so clear that he finds my presence and my contributions an unpleasant burden.
"Particularly since none of his proposed changes addresses glaring factual errors," - Another example of a lose-lose situation. If I actually made substantial changes to the article, rather than lots of minor copyedits, you'd dismiss them for going against the status quo. But when I make the minor ones, you dismiss them as not important enough. (Incidentally, you are incorrect. I have pointed out at least two glaring factual errors. Both have been deliberately ignored.)
"Our goal here has always been an accurate and stable article, not editing for editing's sake." - You now owe me an apology, sir. -Silence 20:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, you'd get a lot further here were to be succinct and to the point in your posts. Like I've told you it's your method that's hampered your edits from finding traction here. It's absolutely no wonder no one wants to play ball when you post these long, rambling replies and proposals. Keep it brief or expect little response or support. FeloniousMonk 20:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I'll keep it brief: stop attacking me, stop insulting me, and stop pushing me around for the hell of it, and state some concrete problems with the copyedits I made so we can start working out how best to improve the article. Succint enough? -Silence 20:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You could have kept it even briefer had you refrained from accusing others of attacking, insulting, and pushing you around (for the hell of it???? excuse me????). No one has done any of those things, and with that removed from your post all that is left is "we can start working out how best to improve the article." which is all anyone ever wanted to begin with. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are clearly unfamiliar with the discussions that have been going on here, or just have very selective memory. I have been trying for days to get people (specifically, FeloniousMonk, since he's the only user who's objected to them) to voice concrete points and criticisms of the copyedits that he's repeatedly reverted, and he's again and again evaded and ignored my requests for discussion in favor of dirt-digging, personal attacks, insinuations, and patronizing dismissals. I am starting to get a little bit tired of it. I realize that keeping a controversial article like ID clean of problems takes a lot out of a person, but that's no excuse to take it out on a random editor. If you want something to abuse, buy a punching bag or something. -Silence 20:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't even know how to respond to this. This is trolling and accusations, because you had to wait a few days for everyone who edits this article regularly to weigh in? Might be time for a cup of tea, Silence. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No one is taking anything out on you, Silence -- except maybe yourself. You fail to comprehend, even after being told the same thing by several different people in several different fora, that it is your methodology that is creating the problem. The victim bit only goes but so far. Jim62sch 21:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have not made any trolling comments whatsoever, nor have I attempted to make accusations or cast blame; I am, quite simply, just not going to continue to ignore the abuse. How long I had to wait had nothing to do with it; being treated like a mass murderer for copyediting a Wikipedia article is what I am growing tired of. Your responsiveness is immensely refreshing, KillerChihuahua, but your criticism is immensely misplaced. -Silence 21:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

um... Mass murderer? Methinks thou dost exaggerate just a wee tad. Just a thought. I could be wrong... KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I haven't really been a contributor to this article, but I just ran across this and it strikes me as absurd. Since when is a whole process and votes and whatnot even required for simple grammar and such copyedits? What a ridiculous situation. Silence, maybe if you were more matter-of-fact on this talk page (more conciseness and less talk of personal attacks and what not), you'd get the discussion about the actual edits you so desire (Which I can't see anywhere on this talk section, despite a lot of other chatter from all the players). Folks like FeloniousMonk, why don't you just read that page of edit summaries Silence wrote up? Sounds like you're saying they're too long for you to bother, but you've spent more than twice as much time writing up replies explaining why you haven't than it would have taken to actually read it. It's a controversial topic but why can't it be handled as civilly as anywhere? I was thinking of doing some grammar and other minor copyedits to mistakes I noticed in this article myself when I came to it, but upon closer inspection doing so would take a hell of a lot more gall and constitution than I have. Kudos to all of you taking the time and mental energy to make a dent in this more difficult and dense sector of the Wikipedia. D. G. 18:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Thanks for the help, Jim! I appreciate your recent edits, such as the wording fix at User:Silence/ID. However, I must respectfully disagree with your rationale for removing the two new images from the page.

The Thomas Aquinas image is relevant to the "history of the concept" section, because Aquinas was arguably the most important popularizer of the argument from design, which forms the core intellectual basis (such as it is..) for the entire concept of intelligent design. Additionally, on an aesthetic—yet still practical—level (I am both a wikignome and a wikifairy, you'll find), the image (or at least some image—I'd object much less to your replacing the image with a better one than with simply removing it altogether) is extremely useful for helping break up a long stretch of undifferentiated text, and thus helping draw readers into the article more, making it much more likely that semi-interested users will take the time to read further into the article and become more interested. On that ground, at least, one could argue that we should have an image there unless there's a good reason not to include it on the page, since if it does no harm and helps liven up a boring expanse of text a little for the sake of our readers, it's a win-win situation. And since the image is free-use, there cannot be any concerns about it ever being legally problematic, unlike the Time photo (I've seen similar photos removed from several pages on the basis that we can only use such covers if the article is discussing the cover itself, not using the cover to demonstrate or illustrate some idea) and the Phillip Johnson pic (which is less problematic than the Time image, despite also being fair-use).

As for the photo, I see no justification whatsoever for not including it (or (and/or?) something similar, like another major figure or a DI or CfSaC logo) in the article. The argument that "it's already included in his article, which we link to" is an exceedingly weak one; by the same logic, our Scientology article should refrain from including any image of L. Ron Hubbard in it because it already links to the article for L. Ron Hubbard! Putting a face to one of the key figures in the history of ID and the ID movement is an immensely practical and useful thing to do, not least because it allows people who have seen our article to recognize him. Also, the aesthetic benefits I mentioned above apply here as well (though less dramatically, since it's later in the article and since the Time image comes soon after). -Silence 10:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We've discussed additional images here several times previously, each time there was consensus that they were unnecessary and added little, most recently last month. Please read the archives. The article is already large - way past the ideal article size, at something like 88 kb. This makes it slow to load for those with dial up. Including additional images which add little value only makes it worse. Instead of wasting that bandwidth on PJ, the cover of Pandas, the Hubble Deep Field or the like, something like a Design timeline or concept map would actually add value. FeloniousMonk 15:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is actually really not that large. Many Featured Articles are much longer. Evolution, for example, is 80kb long, and has no less than 13 images. History of Poland (1945–1989), another FA, demonstrates the upper-limit of how image-heavy an article can be while still easy maintaining Featured quality: it has 30 images (and used to have several more, before the Time magazine covers were removed because they only fall under fair-use when the magazine itself is the subject of the article). The overwhelming majority of Wikipedia users will have no problem whatsoever with a 77kb-long article, and no problem with one that has 2–3 images rather than just 1. An image of the man considered the "founder" of ID is, in any case, surely much more germaine than an image of a random Time magazine cover that is never once even discussed in the actual article. Likewise, even Aquinas is discussed at one point in the article. If we're trying to cleanse this article of images for some bizarre reason, why be so inconsistent and arbitrary settle on a Time cover while ignoring both more concretely relevant images (e.g. the photo of Philip E. Johnson) and images of less dubious, fair-use provenance (e.g. the painting of Aquinas)? The current image selection seems arbitrary, and the decision to forever ban images from this article seems similarly arbitrary. Only an exceedingly number of readers will be noticeably inconvenienced if we add another image or two to the article, whereas almost every reader will be inconvenienced if we don't make the article's large amount of text more accessible by illustrating it with a few relevant images. It's more important, not less, to add images to longer articles! -Silence 15:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it actually is more important to add images to longer articles is debatable. I've not seen any guideline to that effect. I'm not saying we can't have more images. I'm saying that if we do, because of the size of the article, they should add some value, be more than just smiling faces. FeloniousMonk 16:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And you haven't cited any guideline saying not to use images in long articles, so I guess that tact is irrelevant. I thought it was just common sense, but maybe that's my background in page layout and design talking; not everyone is as familiar with the principles of a well-balanced page that incorporates both images and text. Regardless, the two images I suggested are not "just smiling faces", they are a photograph of the ID movement's "father" (arguably even more important than the picture of Charles Darwin on evolution is, since evolutionary theory has changed significantly since Darwin's day, but ID is still PEJ's clearly baby) and a painting of the scholar who formalized the argument from design ("the universe exhibits design, ergo there must be a designer") upon which Intelligent Design is based. I'll agree that we could find better images to illustrate ID with, but contend that these two are certainly better than nothing, and furthermore would point out that they're much more clearly relevant to and appropriate for the article than the Time magazine cover is. Aquinas and Johnson (especially Jonhson!) are both discussed in the article at various points, but the Time cover is not (nor should it probably be, but I'm just pointing out how arbitrary the image selection seems to be). -Silence 16:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I shouldn't have to, you've been around long enough to be familiar with policy. We simply do not agree, and this will be decided by consensus. FeloniousMonk 20:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason for the pics of Aquinas and Johnson. If we add any pics to this article, they'd best be explaining something, not fluff. Jim62sch 21:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In-depth copyedit analysis and discussion, part 1: Lead section

User:FeloniousMonk has requested (more like demanded) that I go through each and every single one of the hundreds of trivial edits I've recently made to the Intelligent design article before he will permit them to be added to the page, even though noone (himself included) has actually objected to any aspect of even one of these textual copyedits, and even though I've already spent hours providing an in-depth, useful, easy-to-navigate, and concise listing of links, timestamps, and detailed and accurate descriptions of all my edits at #Copyedit in response to requests for such a detailing of my changes to the page, which he immediately ignored out-of-hand as "dumping a laundry list". Assuming the rest of you agree that this inane bureaucratic exercise is necessary (if not, do feel free to speak up), I will now begin listing off all of the edits, one group at a time, for in-depth discussion. Here are the lead section (a.k.a. "intro") edits I've made (first wave):

Delink universe in first sentence. This is a very broad article that is only tangentially related to what is being discussed in this section. Overlinking is explicitly and strongly discouraged by Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context.
Delink living things in first sentence. Same rationale as "universe". Having too many links clutters up the page, whereas by having only a few links, you focus readers' attention much more on the links you do chose to include, thus making it much more likely that they'll check out the truly relevant and significant pages in question. By not overwhelming readers with vague links like "universe" and "life" from the get-go, you increase the changes that they'll pay attention to links like intelligent designer and Discovery Institute.
Change piped link [[Argument from design|intelligent cause]] to [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]]. First of all, argument from design is just a redirect to teleological argument. Second of all, this is an unnecessary violation of the principle of least surprise, in that no user will be able to predict that they are being directed to a page on the teleological argument from the context of the link. If anything, they will expect a link to an article about the "intelligent cause" which ID believes is the source of the design in the universe, and the article for that topic is intelligent designer. If we want a link to teleological argument in the lead, we should make it explicit and readily available to new readers, not buried behind layers of subtext. I've also already addressed this issue at #Bogus popups revert.
Move comma from after ref number ("Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute[2], say that") to before it ("Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that"). Standard style (including in this article already) for inline refs of this sort is to have the comma, period, etc. before, not after, the ref marker. No reason to be randomly inconsistent here.
Restore link to evolution in the intro. For some reason, all references to evolution were removed from the lead section at some point, even though ID is by far most noteworthy for its opposition to and criticism of evolutionary theory. I suspect that someone misread the line that linked to evolution as saying that ID's theories actually are on equal footing with the theory of evolution, when it actually says that that's what ID proponents claim to be the case (which is true): "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life." Bolded text is the addition. I've also already addressed this issue at #Bogus popups revert.
Change "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science." to "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience or junk science." Not really necessary and quite redundant in the context of the overall lead, as it immediately follows what was already the explanation that ID falsely claims to be a scientific theory. The reason this is unnecessary is the same reason it is unnecessary to say "Sally thinks the flower is red. Billy thinks the flower is not red, but blue." Simply saying "Sally thinks the flower is red. Billy thinks the flower is blue." is usually sufficient; English grammar accounts for the rest, it's implied in a normal situation—and "scientific theory" directly contradicts "pseudoscience/junk science", whereas it's hypothetically possible for a flower to be both red and blue, so the example is even weaker than the actual situation. However, if there are worries that the lead isn't quite clear enough without being 100% explicit about ID not being a scientific theory, I could see an argument for keeping the clause; I just don't think it's really necessary, the text flows more smoothly and is perfectly clear without it. I've also already addressed this issue at #Bogus popups revert.
Remove space between end of first sentence of second paragraph and accompanying ref, again in keeping with inline-ref conventions. "as pseudoscience[5] or junk science. [6]" becomes "as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6]".
Change piped link [[scientific experiment|experiment]] to simply [[experiment]] There is no scientific experiment article, it's just a redirect to experiment.
I created the eighth ref/note (to more clearly back up the third paragraph's claims than a subtle, well-hidden interwiki link), and then fixed a typo in it. That typo (Wikisouce rather than Wikisource) is currently still on the main page, thanks to Felonious repeatedly mass-reverting most of my edits.

If anyone objects to any of these changes, I'll gladly discuss them at length. If not, I'll move on to the next group, and then the next, and then the next.. I do love efficiency, mm. :F -Silence 17:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

9 new points to discuss? You've got to be kidding me. We're still trying to hammer out the first point from your first five from yesterday. Thanks for just proving my point:[9] Oh, and WP:POINT. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, your whole tone ("[FM] has requested (more like demanded) that I go through each and every single one of the hundreds of trivial edits I've recently made...no one...has objected") is adversarial. While I appreciate your desire for efficiency, running roughshod over longstanding editors on this article is hardly worth the "time saved." Making a stack of edits and then merrily proceeding to make more because no one has had time to figure out what you've done and whether or not they object is not productive. Complaining because it has been suggested you allow people the necessary time is counter-productive. I am delighted to hear that you have made such progress on efficiency. Perhaps you might consider working on patience, civility, and respect for your fellow editors. Quite frankly, I suggest you take the time to discuss your changes, one at a time, not in wholesale lots, instead of your blitzkrieg method of editing. This is not a forgotten article which was pasted in as an essay and received little attention since, where your boldness would doubtless be welcome. Nor is it an article which is badly organized, unsourced, and the muddled result of an army of POV pushers, where any organization and copyediting would be an improvement. If you have suggestions which will improve the article, I am certain I speak for all editors here in saying we welcome them. We welcome them being posted on the talk page, for discussion, and acheiving consensus before and not after you have made them. One puppy's opinion. Now I'm going to go read over each of your suggested edits, taking the time I need to evaluate them. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My tone sounds adversarial because I have been treated as an adversary. Read the other conversations on this Talk page (not to mention Template:Intelligent Design and the Intelligent design edit history). If my breathing sounds heavy after I've been dodging attacks for days straight, assume it's out of weariness, not aggression.

"running roughshod over longstanding editors on this article is hardly worth the 'time saved.'" - I have done no such thing. My criticism is of the time and energy wasted in listing hundreds of trivial edits which noone has objected to, and which are already easily accessible in the #Copyedit section I took the time to create (upon request) if anyone is remotely interested. I would rather spend time discussing disputed edits than listing dozens and dozens of profoundly mundane and obvious ones. Unfortunately, I cannot know which edits are disputed when noone has yet disputed them! You are the first user to take the time to actually criticize any change I've made; for that, I thank you very much. If you had been here in the first day of this silly power struggle of FM's, I have no doubt that we'd have been able to easily resolve the issue and spend our time on improving the article, as I hoped, rather than pointless arguing.

"Making a stack of edits and then merrily proceeding to make more" - The edits are almost without exception simple and stylistic (and the exact same sort that I've made in the past, without any complaint or controversy, to hundreds of articles, including many that are much more contentious and heavily-vandalized than this one by far!), and I went to great lengths to ensure that every single one of them could be easily viewed by simply comparing two versions of the edit history. I have no doubt that anyone could skim over most of them in a half hour (or less) and isolate the significant ones. It is the in-depth analysis of the trivial comma-placement and wikilink-redirecting edits that will waste time, whereas simply looking over the actual edits in question would allow one to immediately isolate whichever ones anyone feels are worthy of discussion. If anyone wanted me to slow down so they could take the time to look over my past edits, they easily could have said so: not once did anyone say, for example, "hey, Silence, wait another three days before making any more edits, so we have time to look over the ones you've just made in detail, OK?", or "hey, Silence, hold off on editing for the next day or two, we need some time to go over these first." The only response was complete silence, for days at a time, to the extent that it was painfully obvious that noone was ever going to bother to check over my edits; they found it much easier simply to mass-revert them (with a threatening and antagonistic message, just to be nice) and then move on to more important matters. That is not how Wikipedia editors are meant to interact.

"Complaining because it has been suggested you allow people the necessary time is counter-productive." - Nobody has suggested this. You are the first person. And certainly nobody has ever asked for a certain length of time in order to go over the articles. You are making a lot of dramatic, and profoundly incorrect, assumptions about how people have been responding to my edits over the last few days. Your mistake is understandable, because what you're describing is how one would expect any reasonable people to respond in such a situation. It simply didn't happen. I guess people were having an off day or two?

"Perhaps you might consider working on patience, civility, and respect for your fellow editors." - You would be most wise to direct this comment to certain other peoples involved in this dispute. I have gone to great lengths to attempt to diffuse the problem, to point out how much respect and good faith I have for the other editors on this page, and to avoid responding to the countless goading, barbed attacks I've been barraged with lately, without provocation. You have essentially walked in on a man who was just slapped in the face nine times, and did nothing, and now raises his hand to stop the soon-to-come tenth slap, upon which point you cast judgment upon the slapped man for raising his hand in violence. I am not saying that I am blameless, but your comments are unintentionally hilarious in their timing and misdirection. I feel like I'm in a Sylvester & Tweety cartoon or something; quite surreal.

"where your boldness would doubtless be welcome" - Boldness is welcome on all Wikipedia articles. That's what Wikipedia is about. No article is "finished"; all need improvements. I am glad to discuss and compromise on my various suggestions (as I've said dozens of times already on this page), but I need to hear critical feedback, not the vague insults and threats I've gotten so far, in order to be able to discuss or compromise on anything.

"Nor is it an article which is badly organized, unsourced, and the muddled result" - I never said it was. It's an excellent article. That's a big part of the reason I took the time to try and make its excellentness more even and thorough. And it's a big part of the reason most of my edits have been exceedingly minor and simple; I deliberately went out of my way to avoid making any significant changes to just about any of the content of the article.

"I am certain I speak for all editors here in saying we welcome them." - Then, if my experience here so far is an indication of anything, you're certainty is misplaced, I'm sorry to say. :/ I appreciate your kind words, though. -Silence 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I officially give up on discussing things with Silence. Despite being asked to be brief he still insists on posting War and Peace every 20 minutes. More like Ulysses, actually. If he starts discussing the article, starts making sense, and keeps it short and factual I'll participate. FeloniousMonk 21:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, don't insult James Joyce, Ulysses is one of my favorite books! ;) But yes, until the neredlessly long posts end, there's no point in talking anymore. Sylvester and Tweety? Jim62sch 21:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence's remarks seem to make sense to me. He was discussing the article until the topic became his own edits, then he discussed that. He appears to feel he's under attack. In such circumstances, I don't see how he can be blamed for a desire to rebut his opponents. And I don't think you have any right to dictate terms on his writing style. I have a tendency to be verbose myself. Such wordiness often arises from an intense desire for precision, for one's words to be incontrovertible and impossible to misunderstand. I understand that perfectly. I've seen both you (FM) and Silence in action on other articles, and I think you're two of the best editors at this place. You really ought to both chill a bit. I propose that you both start over, swallow your pride a bit, and work together. This contentiousness serves no purpose. Silence, please stop thinking you're under attack; FM has a good point that we need to consider every change very carefully, in my opinion because of the constant pressure the article is under from would-be POV pushers who wander in. FM, please take the time to read what Silence has to say; since you asked for him to be very detailed, it ill behooves you to now refuse to read it. Best to you both, Kasreyn 23:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, thanks for the support. I'm OK with them criticizing me for my verbosity, though. You are correct that it arises from a desire on my part to not be misunderstood, but in practice, as seen above, it seems that such efforts are useless. It is true that it is an unfortunate vice of mine, and while they did request that I be detailed, they also, apparently, want me to be detailed in bite-sized little bits spread out over a long span of time, so I suppose they're at least being consistent in their requests now. I don't care so much if they want to criticize me, as long as they take a look at my edits at the same time so we can make some actual progress on the article in the meantime, and, thank god, that's now happening for the first time thanks to KillerChihuahua's arrival. So I can take a little more chastisement if it means finally getting down to business with respect to the article itself; sticks and stones. I will take your words to heart, and "chill". :D There is no real point in all this drama and angst and squabbling over a simple copyedit. If discussion is needed, then we will discuss. I eagerly await more feedback on these edits, and as soon as y'all want me to move on to the next batch, I will do so.

Incidentally, you are a great mediator. Although both you and Chihuahua provided a very valuable outside perspective into the matter, unlike KC, you were able to criticize both sides of the dispute, and your words have been moderate enough to be the sort of advice people will take to heart, rather than putting them on the defensive (as KC inadvertantly did by vilifying me as the sole offending party in the dispute, though I don't hold it against him). If you haven't already, you should totally try out mediation, you're a natural. :D -Silence 08:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My take on edits 1 - 9:

Delinking universe: I am agnostic on this change.
Delinking living things: Mild Object: This article is about a proposed explanation of the development of living things, and as such the link is appropriate.
intelligent cause to intelligent cause. Works for me. I think the old redirect went elsewhere, and it made more sense when first implemented.
Comma before ref. Style issue, support.
Support linking first instance of evolution.
Strongly object. At least 5 pages worth of the archives are on this one line, and the clarifier is necessary. (Overwhelming majority, everyone's favorite line.)
Style issue (extra space) support.
Again, must have been a change in redirect. In this case I think it would be better left as is, so if it is split again the link still directs to correct article. (scientific experiment|experiment)
I will need to follow the ref and compare, no comment currently on proposed change. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2. It's equally about a proposed explanation for the origin of the universe (the intelligent designer is almost always proposed to have created both life and a universe to accomodate it—hence the fine-tuned universe concept—so I see no strong reason to link to one and not the other. A link to origin of life (which we already have in the lead anyway) is much more relevant, specific, and useful than one to the vague topic of life.

6. Alright, if you want. I think it's clearer in the simpler format, and I don't see listing archive numbers as a very strong argument (remember to imagine justifying things to a reader, not a fellow editor; readers are the ones we are writing for!), but I don't have any strong opinions about this change. Feel free to revert it. (It's currently implemented in the article, because Felonious's revert was so haphazard.)

8. I'm guessing that it will never be split again. The ~~evidence~~ experiment article is solely about ~~evidence~~ experiments in a ~~philosophical and~~ scientific context~~, and it's stub,~~ so it's highly unlikely to be divided up in the foreseeable future. If it makes you feel better, though, I'll put the ~~"evidence"~~"experiment" page on my watchlist, and if it ever gets split into scientific/non-scientific pages, I'll make the change to the more specific article. OK? -Silence 21:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Sorry, mixed up evidence and experiment momentarily in the above paragraph.) -Silence 12:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, tell me when you want part 2 of the copyedit posted. -Silence 21:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On 2: Then link both or link neither, I will go with consensus on this one. As it is currently both, leave as is unless there is strong consensus to change.

On 6: The archives were mentioned because a great deal of work and editing back and forth went into this, certainly not as some kind of argument. The arguments are in those archives.

On 8: Stand by my position. It goes where it supposed to now; it will go where it is supposed to if the article is ever split.

On part 2 - wait until others have voiced their positions on these edits. One step at a time, I promise the world will not end. Go rewrite something neglected off of Wikipedia:Cleanup to pass the time, eh? KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2: Actually, currently neither one is linked—check the Intelligent design page. As I mentioned, the revert was haphazard. Some of the earlier parts of my copyedit got left on the page. -Silence 22:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

KC is ONE editor. ONE. We're going to need a lot more than ONE editor agreeing on item number two. And you may have to wait a bit before everyone weighs in. Relax. Jim62sch 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was just a simple question. You can chill on the caps. I'll wait as long as it takes. -Silence 22:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion on proposed edits above:

1. This delink of universe in first paragraph is apparently already done at the moment. If it had been done by itself with an edit summary containing, say, "rem unnecessary link", or with the same justification as just offered above on talk, I think your change would have remained.

2. This link could stay or go and makes very little difference to the article.

3. This link (superimposed on the words “intelligent cause”) is unnecessary, period. As with many unnecessary links, commonly we tolerate them.

4. comma? absolutely yes.

5. The link to evolution makes more sense to me, much more sense than any link at all from the words “intelligent cause”. Links come, links go. NP by me as long as it doesn’t pipe to, say Lamarckian evolution, feces, etc..

6. I wouldn’t recommend even trying. This sentence has been hashed, rehashed, re-rehashed, and re-rehashed yet again, as well as yet yet again, as well as ... .

7. Absolutely, NP.

8. Link directly to esperiment? Absolutely, absolutely yes! These are the kinds of edits that if made one at a time with a quick edit note, are appreciated by virtually all unless there’s some overriding reason for the contrary.

9. By all means correct the misspelling in the footnote. Anyone who disagrees with such a change will have to deal with all the rest of us.

That said, these are not the changes that attracted all the attention. Seeing an image of Aquinas and Phillip Johnson suddenly appear, however, along with other more significant changes implemented simultaneously, as you might imagine, caught some attention and raised a few questions. ... Kenosis 12:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the only reason "universe" and "living things" are currently delinked on the main page is because I made that change, and it was one of the few changes that got missed during FeloniousMonk's mass-reverts. And, the main reason we don't need a link to "life" is because we already have more specific links in the lead for the two most relevant aspects of life in ID: evolution and the origin of life.
As for 8, yes, I don't understand KC's objection to a direct link; I'm glad we agree that just linking to experiment is simpler and more convenient for both editors and readers. The reason not to link to a nonexistent, hypothetical article like scientific experiment is the same reason we have no reason to link to an article like scientific theory: the theory article is scientific, and almost certainly always will be. Let's reserve the "scientific X" links for articles that actually do have separate pages for that concept, like scientific evidence.
So, to sum up so far: it sounds like everyone agrees on changes 4, 5, and 7 at this point. (Though note that User:LexCorp briefly objected to 5 a week ago, though his rationale has been refuted several times since.) People seem to be mostly neutral on changes 1 and 2, though KC has a "mild object" to 2 (which I think I've addressed by pointing out that we already effectively link to the "development of living things" via origin of life and evolution; a link to life would thus be superfluous). KC supports 3, whereas Kenosis thinks we should eliminate any linkage from "intelligent cause" altogether (though both agree that the current link to argument from design is off-base). There is agreement not to mess around with 6 because it's been overdebated so much in the past to come to the current state, so that edit should probably be rejected, at least for now. Kenosis strongly supports 8 (as do I), whereas KC seems to have a slight objection (though I don't see the grounds for it; there is no possible benefit in linking to unlikely hypothetical article titles that will probably never exist). And Kenosis agrees with fixing the "Wikisouce" spelling error, but so far no comments on the 8th ref itself, so that's currently a "neutral". Looks like we'll need a few more users' comments before we can settle on which changes to implement. -Silence 12:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me, Silence, but this is already too much arguing over these in my opinion. Please make these edits one at a time with a reasonable justification for each. All on this list of 9 appear to be fair game except for #6. The ones other editors disagree with will be reverted, and if yet others agree with you some may get reinstated-- that's just the way it is in a controversial article, or any article. Keep it down to a manageable number of specific small edits per day (as an example, say, no more than three or four individual, specific small changes per day at this stage of the article's development, or a single substantive change per day) and give the other participants a chance to look at them and respond if they choose. That would be my recommendation. Other than #6, these edits above obviously are different from suddenly seeing Aquinas and Johnson pop up out of nowhere and footnotes changed and the introduction changed, etc. Sure there is a technical right to make mass edits, and there's also a technical right for many other editors to say "no way". ... Kenosis 13:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um, why the hostility? I'm not "arguing", I'm discussing. I already agreed with you on 6—even though I think the sentence flows a bit better shortened, there's clearly enough opposition to it that there's no need to implement it. I don't see how any of the comments you made above are relevant to anything I said, nor how I have ever disputed that this article is "controversial" or that other editors don't have the right (free speech?) to say "no way". Maybe you misunderstood my tone or message..? I was just replying to comments, then summing up where we're at (since others might have trouble keeping up with the discussion) so as to more easily address the remaining points... You've been extremely helpful so far, so why does it sound like the above comment is trying to pick a fight? O_o; And why do you keep referencing the Aquinas and Johnson images? We already have a thread for discussing those above, and consensus seems to be to at least hold off on adding new images for a while. You seem to somehow blame me for bringing up these changes on the Talk page because they're so minor, even though I'm only doing exactly what FeloniousMonk and others have instructed. Stranger and stranger. -Silence 14:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hostility? There was no hostility in Kenosis' reply to you. That you noted any where there was none might be part of the problem here -- you'll get much farther with your ideas if you don't play the victim card so often, especially when there's no evident to support its use. As I told you elsewhere, you have some good ideas, but the presentation of those ideas is problematic. And before you accuse me of being hostile, or jumping all over you, or whatever, let me assure you that I am merely sharing my analysis of what has happened here. Jim62sch 10:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still trying to figure out what you're asking me to do here, but it sounds like you're saying "we've discussed these too much already, just make the changes (except for 6), one at a time, with clear justifications and explanations in the edit summary for each". But that's in direct contradiction to what Jim just said: "We're going to need a lot more than ONE editor agreeing on item number two. And you may have to wait a bit before everyone weighs in." So you chastise me for discussing the changes too much before moving on, and Jim chastises me for discussing them too little before moving on. I'm starting to get used to this pattern... -Silence 14:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are we on the same talk page? Maybe my computer is displaying something different than that of other participants--must be a malfunction. Well, have a good day, OK?... Kenosis 14:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

??? OK... You too. -Silence 14:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pattern? You mean like "good cop, bad cop"? There's no pattern -- while the regular editors argee on many things, we do not march in lock-step to the tune of some hidden dark agenda that includes "beating up on Silence".

In any case, since we have a section (and rightly so) on Fine-tuned universe, I disagree with delinking universe (Item # 2).

Item # 6 -- I agree with KC and Kenosis -- not a good idea. The others are OK. Jim62sch 10:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the same logic, Jim, we should have a link to movement and controversy in the article, since those words are also used in section titles. Your criteria for including a link, especially a link in the very first sentence of the very first paragraph of the article, seem to be rather too low. It is sufficient to have a link to universe in the fine-tuned universe article—that is an example of proper distribution of wikilinks, where universe is clearly specifically relevant to the fine-tuned universe article, and fine-tuned universe is clearly specifically relevant to the intelligent design article, but that doesn't make universe specifically relevant to intelligent design, for the same reason that plant links to life, and botany links to plant, but botany doesn't link to life: specific relevance, for the purposes of wikilinking, is not inherited via related topics. However, if you strongly feel that we need a link to universe somewhere in the article, why not just add a link to it in the "Fine-tuned universe" section, rather than in the very first sentence of the article, where it's especially important that we not flood readers with vaguely relevant links and have them miss more specifically relevant ones? -Silence 10:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moreover, the universe article doesn't even mention fine-tuned universe, or, indeed, anything related to creationism, much less ID. Much like life doesn't mention anything related to ID or creationism in the article, though evolution does. That gives you an indicator of how irrelevant such a vague, general article is to a distantly-related topic like this, and how unnecessary it is to link to it in the first sentence of the article. -Silence 11:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Items 1-4 were already implemented. I implemented #5 (link to first instance of "evolution", which is in third paragraph). Items #7 and #8 were already implemented. Item #9 is already covered by a direct link to the case in the body text. ... Kenosis 16:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will assume that you simply misunderstood what #5 is, and are not intentionally deceiving anyone. You have not implemented #5. Edit #5 is to link to evolution at the end of the first paragraph, at the same point where origin of life is linked to ("the evolution and origin of life."). I don't see why you linked to a later mentioning of evolution rather than either implementing the change that was actually discussed, or voicing your own opinion as to whether (or how) you feel it should be implemented. I guess you were just confused, again..? And, #9 is implemented (along with several of the others) because it's one of the changes I made that wasn't reverted. (Or rather, it was half-reverted, hence the "Wikisouce" error, but FM has recently fixed that mistake.) #6 is also implemented for the same reason, so, whether or not the change has already been implemented is not a fair determinant of whether the edit is accepted; which edits were and weren't reverted seems to have been random. -Silence 17:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE #5: Then change it, or instead continue to find reasons to argue about it with everybody. ~~Caveat emptor for buying into this particular discussion in the first place. My mistake. But it's all there in the relevant edit histories.~~... Kenosis 17:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um? I don't understand the meaning of the above comment. Could you clarify what you are suggesting, exactly? I'd rather discuss it then change it, because I figure I'll be jumped on at this point if I make any edit whatsoever to Intelligent design, and it'll just be reverted. -Silence 18:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"I guess you were just confused, again..?" -- the again was unnecessary, thus Kenosis' "caveat emptor" was rather apropos. Caveat lectores redactoresque: verba tua miscontruant, ergo volite illa pensitare.

My opinion on points 1 thru 9:

OK.
No.
OK.
OK.
OK.
No.
OK.
OK.
No, already fixed.

FeloniousMonk 19:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So we're mostly agreed on the changes, except for #2. I say the link to life is as redundantly vague as the universe one, and that we don't need it because we link to evolution and origin of life in the same paragraph. Kenosis says it makes "very little difference", and is neutral. Chihuahua agrees with you, saying "This article is about a proposed explanation of the development of living things". However, if ID is a proposed explanation of the development of living things, then the links to evolution and origin of life, which describe that development of living things (in both senses of the word), are all that we really need to provide readers. So, I think not linking to "life" here would be preferable. However, I don't have strong feelings on the matter, so if you strongly prefer the link, I won't push.

Incidentally, a side-question: how many minor changes would you prefer I list in each "chunk" for discussion? I don't want to list too many, and have people overwhelmed, or too few, and waste too much time. -Silence 19:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please list your next four. Thank you. WAS 4.250 21:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Next four? OK. I'll go make "part 2" now. -Silence 06:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-ID perspectives" linking concern

Fellow Wikipedians,

I have a concern about a link under the section titled "Non-ID perspectives" on this Wikipedia 'Intelligent design' article.

The linked titled "A Criticism of Intelligent Design", described as an "Article analyzing ID Theory," is a website that, in my analysis, has disqualifying concerns:

Not factual. --- The site venomously trashes Sir Issac Newton, who, ironically, is the one thinker credited with elucidating the very idea the site is trying to promote (see the lead line and following of the Wikipedia article Intelligent falling for more).
Not relevant. --- Intelligent-forces.com is listed as a ""Anti-Gravity" parody website" in the external links of Wikipedia's "Intelligent falling" article, and this spoof site contains accounts of claimed historical events and which apparently never happened (e.g. there seems to be no "Road Telecommunications Bill," touted here, they do not actually sell the clothes they say they have "in stock," and their Book of the Month, "Newton: History's Greatest Monster," is not a book in print, etc.).
Not ethical or lawful. --- The site's author(s) claim to exercise practices that violate US federal laws, and probably state and international laws as well. According to their events page, the group claims to "use targeted kidnappings where appropriate."
Not compliant to FM's standards. --- Additionally, it is not clear how intelligent-forces.com satisfies the criteria demanded of ResearchID.org by FM to Campana during a recent discussion.
Not accessible. --- Intelligent-forces.com also seems to negatively answer the guideline questions Wikipedia:External_links, "Is it accessible?" or "Is the link, in the context used, likely to have a substantive longevity?" since the page linked to that critiques ID is not accessible through any of the "outer shell" pages at intelligent-forces.com, and ostensibly serves as a "hidden" page on the Intelligent-forces.com site.

Based on the above observations, and according to FM's criteria and the above cited guidelines page, the link to Intelligent-forces.com seems to fail the tests for inclusion under a number of the qualifiers, especially "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research."

As such, it seems the link to Intelligent-forces.com does not belong on the Wikipedia article about ID.

Also, since neither Intelligent-forces.com nor ResearchID.org comply with FM's stated standards, yet intelligent-forces.com is currently utilized as a link, why is ResearchID.org excluded from the External links section?

Replies to these concerns would be appreciated. Please let me know if I have mistaken the facts on any points. Kind regards, Joseph C. Campana 19:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Um, it's a parody site... But you knew that, right? ID has generated several parodies, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, Intelligent Falling, which are notable in their own right, worthy of their own articles here. This seems to be one of those. Why don't you come back making your case using Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, not "FM's criteria," whatever that is. FeloniousMonk 19:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, thanks for your reply. Yes indeedee, I am aware that the site is a parody, thank you for checking in with me on that; you are a considerate gentleman. The fact that it is a spoof is why the link doesn't belong on a Wikipedia article. So say the Wikipedia conventions on external links that I already gave above, which state that "Wikipedia articles should heed these rules," including the prohibition on linking to inaccurate material. I don't see in the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines where it says that non-factual parodies can be linked to. However, as you and everyone can observe, the page linked to is a fictitious spoof containing counterfactual material not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Perhaps we can start a 'humor' page for such entertaining fiction. Thank you again for your very prompt reply; the speedy responses always make this page a pleasure for discussion. Kind regards, Joseph C. Campana 20:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's clearly a parody and Wikipedia:External_links does not preclude parodies and it take some significant stretches of logic to conclude that it does. Is this post of your's a parody as well? If not and you're serious then you're wasting our time and yours. FeloniousMonk 20:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My, Joseph C. Campana, I've never seen such a venomous yet courteous post. Kudos.

Joseph C. Campana, FeloniousMonk, et all, please review your recent posts. Try to remain civil and patient. Some things are not worth replying to, while few are worth getting brusque over. -- Ec5618 20:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ec, I know that this article has a long and bad history of conflict. I want no part in that aspect of this talk page. Typed words are easy to misinterpret, and this page is incredibly heated.

I have no hard feelings against anyone here.

My only intention is courtesy. I have no desire to fester distrust or venom. Please know that civility is my first priority. There is no sarcasm intended in my tone. As far as my own capabilities, I have tried everything to remain civil. If I am coming across as negative or venomous, please tell me how I can avoid this. If necessary, I will resort to smilies, but even those can be misinterpreted. I know it can be hard to believe sometimes, given the battles that go on here, but there are people that appreciate the work that goes into making a wiki community work together, trust me, I know this fact very well.

I really do give all of the editors here props, including FM. This is a genuine compliment I am offering. I hope it can be taken at face value, and the work of this article can continue without hostility. Kind regards, Joseph C. Campana 21:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, wow, you really are fast!!! Nope, this post is not a parody, it is a legitimate concern. The parody page under discussion, quoting from the conventions, is not "accessible," lacks "substantive longevity," and is indeed "factually inaccurate material."

As the Wikipedia policies state, "Wikipedia is first and foremost an online encyclopedia." Encyclopedias typically do not have humorous material; that type of material is typically reserved for joke books and comics. Or for articles that are explicitly humorous in nature. Given recent court proceedings and the curriculum struggle going on the US and abroad, the topic of intelligent design does not qualify as a humorous encyclopedia article.

Is the inclusion of this parody an attempt to "strive for accuracy," as the first pillar of Wikipedia states we should do?

FM, I want you to know that I am not trying to be legalistic, nor am I antithetical to this Wikipedia article. I think it is a valiant attempt at consensus, as online consensus goes. I really and truly think that the link is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article that is seeking factuality. Please do not misinterpret my discussion here. I am not a railroading ID advocate. Far be it from me to throw a wrench in the works of a wiki, I know how annoying spammers can be. As you can see, I am fairly discussing changes. Additionally, as you know, I help administer a wiki myself. I think the link under discussion is misplaced and should be removed. Can you squarely see any of the issues I am bringing up? Kind regards, Joseph C. Campana 21:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I see your points, and I agree it needs to go, but for the reason KC brought up below actually.

While you're here I do want to compliment you on your timeline though:[10] It's rather good. FeloniousMonk 21:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I agree - the parody should go. Its not against policy but it is linkbloat, and might be confusing for those not anticipating a parody. Its cute but does not add to the understanding of the topic at hand. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed a lot links. We should be selective here considering there are some much more relevant ones that are missing and need to be added. So yes you're right; it should go. FeloniousMonk 21:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, thank you for the compliment on the timeline. Even though many think the opposite, I think you have been gracious and fair in our exchange. I expressed my views, you expressed yours, others expressed theirs, and a workable solution emerged. Just how a wiki should work!

FM et al, I'm glad we could agree; albeit for different reasons. I'll remove the link in about a half an hour if there are no objections from others. That is, I will remove it if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Kind regards, Joseph C. Campana 22:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Knock that off. You're ruining my rep, and I worked too hard for it. If you feel I was gracious and fair at all it's your own fault. You were a very good sport when I expressed my opinion recently that your ID wiki isn't yet notable enough for mention in this article. Many others would have flown off in a rage; you responded with grace and humility and that did not go unnoticed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if one day soon it will be wildly notable and successful. If the DI has any sense they'll bankroll you. I still think your post here was a parody, though. FeloniousMonk 23:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind linking to that timeline, even though I agree with FM re the link to the full site. (Hey, is that wishy-washy on my part?). Jim62sch 10:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Important content dispute reminder

Wikipedia:No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man --FloNight ^talk 22:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very cute. I have acrophobia by the way...seeing that picture has scarred me for life. ;) Jim62sch 22:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This talk page scares me! FloNight ^talk 22:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its terrified braver puppies than I. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, Flo... worse than the Zhu articles and Webex? You cut your teeth at wikipedia debating tough subjects, I saw to that. Jump on in... the vitriol is fine. FeloniousMonk 23:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. It's true, I learned the fine art of Wikipedia consensus editing by skirmishing with (self-described) pedantic blowhard Larvatus and the living legend FeloniousMonk. ; - ) FloNight ^talk 03:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk has improved since becoming an admin. WAS 4.250 03:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

IDCAD, part 2: Overview

Continuing the "In-depth copyedit analysis and discussion" here, now that we've gone over the first 9 edits (for the lead) fairly thoroughly. These copyedits are to the "Intelligent design in summary" section, which was renamed to simply "Overview" in my edits. Per request, I'll start with the first four, then move on to the next four, etc.

1. Rename section title "Intelligent design in summary" to "Overview". Simpler, tidier, quicker. Conveys all the same information, but lets readers instantly know what the section deals with: an overview of intelligent design. Also, "summaries" often apply to stories, not topics and beliefs in general; "overview" is more general, and better encompasses the "origins of the concept" and "origins of the term" sections, which don't really "summarize" ID, per se.
2. Merge first two paragraphs ("Intelligent design is presented as..." and "This stands in opposition to...") into one. Both are extremely short, only one sentence long, and they are on exactly the same topic, with a smooth transition from the end of the first sentence to the beginning of the second.
3. Change "[[Biology|biological science]]" to "[[biology|biological]] science". Minor wikilink clarifier, so users are less likely to be confused into thinking that there's a "biological science" article distinct from our biology article. (Life science also redirects to biology, incidentally.)
4. Shorten "which relies on experiment and collection of uncontested data to explain the natural world" to "which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world". Conveys the same basic information, but much more quickly, simply, and accurately. "Uncontested" is ambiguous, and addresses a (relatively) complex issue (validation of scientific data under the scientific method) that is beyond the scope of this article; if an IDer contests scientific data, that doesn't make it unscientific. "Collection of uncontested data" is also too vague to be meaningful or useful here; simply "experimentation" suffices for the very basic overview of science which is all this article requires.

By the way, Kenosis has removed {{Intelligent Design}} from the entire article without discussion. It used to be in the "Intelligent design in summary/Overview" section. Anyway, comments and feedback on the first four changes for this section? -Silence 07:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer "Overview", but only as part of the title "Overview of intelligent design". I realize it's no shorter than what we currently have, but while I agree re summary, I think we need to say what it's an overview of.
That's what's already there (at least as of 6:57 AM EST).
biological science will work fine -- biological redirects to biology.
We've gone over that one before and consensus was to let it stand, so I'm opposed to that change at this time.

Once we get these four items squared away, we'll discuss the template. Jim62sch 11:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. It is not necessary to include "intelligent design" in every section header for the article named Intelligent design. In fact, it's phenomenally unnecessary, and makes the article a lot less easy to navigate for brand-new readers, since they have to read 4 times as much text to get the same information that they would from simpler section titles. There is no reason to violate the Manual of Style here when all it does is inconvenience our readers. The MoS explicitly states: "Avoid restating the subject of the article or of an enclosing section in heading titles. It is assumed that you are writing about the same subject, so you usually do not need to refer to it again." Makes sense to me..

2. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but that fact isn't relevant. I've already stated in my previous edit that which edits of mine were and weren't reverted was 100% random, based solely on chronology. Nobody has specifically verified the new edits, regardless of whether they're currently in the article or not, so whether the edits are in the current article has absolutely nothing to do with whether they should be (or have been) accepted or not.

3. Although I understand where you're coming from, it is preferable to link to [[biology|biological]] rather than [[biological]]. It is more convenient, speedy, and simple for our readers. There are many users on Wikipedia that go around fixing links to redirects by replacing them with links to the redirected-to article; I see no value in making their job any more difficult.

4. OK, but just "this has been discussed" isn't really satisfying (especially sans a link)—can you explain why the current version was settled upon? I have a pretty good idea already of why that section was added to the sentence in question, and it seems a misguided effort to me, for the reasons I mentioned above (it doesn't add useful information for the reader, complicates the sentence, and has the potential to be misunderstood). Anyway, thanks for the feedback! -Silence 11:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My opinions:

Yes. Shorter is better. I can grok the article structure at a glance.
Yes. Let's discuss changes, if you please.
Yes.
No, for many reasons. And no it isn't "satisfying" to read a past argument when you wish to engage in one yourself. WAS 4.250 13:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Puppy's take:

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
No. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WAS, #2 is a change. The problem is that when FeloniousMonk reverted my changes, he missed a number of my early ones; not mentioning them now, along with the others, would be dishonest and wouldn't make any sense, since they're no more or less likely to be accepted than my other changes, they just randomly happened to slip through the cracks of FM's reverts. For example, change #6 (in part 1) was (and still is) implemented even though people seem opposed to it, because it slipped through those cracks. Same for #4 in part 2, which you three object to as well. So the fact that a change hasn't already been reverted doesn't seem a reliable indicator of whether it will be accepted: the paragraph-merge, consequently, is a change, and Felonious specifically asked me to list them all individually so that they can be checked over. What have I done wrong?

Anyway, it sounds like there's agreement to accept 1-3 and reject 4. I can live with that (though it would be nice to hear some real rationale or justification for #4, if only as a footnote.. oi). Should I list the next 4 now, or wait a while longer? There are a total 13 more changes in the "Overview" section. -Silence 13:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"next we'll discuss the template" says Jim62sch. So either that or the next four or both. WAS 4.250 13:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the template discussion, we'll need Kenosis' input at least to reach a consensus. I'm not so sure that the template really adds anything to the article. Thus, since I'm a bit ambivalent about it at the moment, feel free to explain why you think it needs to be there and others can disagree (if they wish) and the most compelling argument will get my "vote".

re #2 -- "That's what's already there" means I have no objection. Had I an objection, I would have stated it.Jim62sch 14:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Using a Hypostatization to Hide a Theology

According to the Discovery Institute, "The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This assertion is totally illogical. A theory cannot hold an opinion. A theory cannot assert "that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause."

The Discovery Institute poses the question, "What is the theory of intelligent design?" Then, rather than providing a definition of intelligent design, the Discovery Institute offers a DESCRIPTION of intelligent design. That description is a hypostatization.

Hypostatization means "treating an abstract entity as if it were concrete." Intelligent design is an "abstract entity" and, as such, intelligent design is absolutely incapable of holding the opinion that intelligent design is the "best" explanation. However, the Discovery Institute's description of intelligent design turns intelligent design into a "concrete" person named Intelligent Design, who purportedly "holds" the opinion that intelligent design is the "best" explanation. This is trickery and utter silliness.

The debate about intelligent design goes around and around because the proponents of intelligent design are never required to actually define intelligent design. Instead, they are allowed to put up a straw man, Mr. Intelligent Design, and allege that he holds the opinion that he is the best explanation.

Intelligent design is the assertion that the universe was designed and created by an intelligent designer. It's really just that simple. Intelligent design is not a theory, it's a theology.

The Wikipedia page about intelligent design should be revised to make it clear that the Discovery Institute is offering an opinion about intelligent design, not a definition of intelligent design.

Scott G. Beach 09:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that the assertion is illogical, the source is a direct quote, so it cannot be changed. And personally, I'd rather not see the article waste additional bytes on the philosophical or semantic incorrectness of DI's statement.

As for ID being a theology, while that may in fact be true (see Kitzmiller for verification of that view), since we're constrained by the rules of WP:NPOV, we'd need to be extremely careful in expressing such a view. As the article stands now, there is sufficient sourcing that alludes to ID theological bent. Jim62sch 11:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Using Wikipedia's main content policies WP:NOR, WP:V, and NPOV as a guide, the article is handling this issue exactly right. FloNight ^talk 13:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

^ Cite error: The named reference Design Inference was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Michael J. Murray, n.d. Natural Providence (or Design Trouble) (PDF)
^ Dembski. What is the position of the NRCSE on the teaching of intelligent design [ID as an alternative to neo-Darwinian evolution in Nebraska schools?]

[Design_Inference-1] Cite error: The named reference Design Inference was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[2] Michael J. Murray, n.d. Natural Providence (or Design Trouble) (PDF)

[3] Dembski. What is the position of the NRCSE on the teaching of intelligent design [ID as an alternative to neo-Darwinian evolution in Nebraska schools?]

[1]

[2]

[3]

@@ Line 768: / Line 768: @@
 "next we'll discuss the template" says Jim62sch. So either that or the next four or both. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 13:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
+:For the template discussion, we'll need Kenosis' input at least to reach a consensus.  I'm not so sure that the template really adds anything to the article.  Thus, since I'm a bit ambivalent about it at the moment, feel free to explain why you think it needs to be there and others can disagree (if they wish) and the most compelling argument will get my "vote".
+: re #2 -- "That's what's already there" means I have no objection.  Had I an objection, I would have stated it.[[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 14:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 ==Using a Hypostatization to Hide a Theology==