Talk:September 11 attacks: Difference between revisions
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→Conspiracy theories: Oppose. Per WP:NPOV. We should not be giving undue weight to a fringe theory. |
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* '''Support''' ''in theory''. Not in that form, but the accuracy of the first sentence merits its inclusion in the article. However, "hundreds of professionals..." is just wrong (I see no way to keep similar incorrect information out of the article) and some (if not all) of the others are [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] considering the small amount of information in the article related to the alleged criticism. I think it appropriate to include '''just the first sentence''' under "Effects" — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] |
* '''Support''' ''in theory''. Not in that form, but the accuracy of the first sentence merits its inclusion in the article. However, "hundreds of professionals..." is just wrong (I see no way to keep similar incorrect information out of the article) and some (if not all) of the others are [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] considering the small amount of information in the article related to the alleged criticism. I think it appropriate to include '''just the first sentence''' under "Effects" — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] |
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*'''Oppose''' Not only no, but hell no. There is already an entire article dedicated to the idea that some people do not conform to the normal practices of society and therefore will believe any crackpot theory, even if it cannot be proven. This article is about the events of the September 11th attacks, and as such, should only contain proven facts. It should not, however, contain any fairy tales from the land of make-believe. As far as I'm concerned, this article already gives too much [[WP:UNDUE|weight]] to the fictional theories that evolved after this tragic event.--[[User:Jojhutton|<font color="#A81933">JOJ</font>]] [[User talk:Jojhutton|<font color="#CC9900"><sup>Hutton</sup>]]</font> 16:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' Not only no, but hell no. There is already an entire article dedicated to the idea that some people do not conform to the normal practices of society and therefore will believe any crackpot theory, even if it cannot be proven. This article is about the events of the September 11th attacks, and as such, should only contain proven facts. It should not, however, contain any fairy tales from the land of make-believe. As far as I'm concerned, this article already gives too much [[WP:UNDUE|weight]] to the fictional theories that evolved after this tragic event.--[[User:Jojhutton|<font color="#A81933">JOJ</font>]] [[User talk:Jojhutton|<font color="#CC9900"><sup>Hutton</sup>]]</font> 16:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Per [[WP:NPOV]]. We should not be giving [[WP:UNDUE|undue]] weight to a [[WP:FRINGE|fringe theory]]. If I may paraphrase [https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-September/006715.html Jimbo's famous e-mail of Sep 29, 2003] which is the key part of the NPOV policy: What do mainstream history texts say on the matter? What do the majority of prominent historians say on the matter? Is there significant debate one way or the other within mainstream historians on this point? |
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:*If your viewpoint is held by the majority of historians, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts. |
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:*If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent historians, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides. |
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:*If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then _whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not_, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. |
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:At best, this belongs in an ancilliary article, and that ancilliary article already exists: [[9/11 conspiracy theories]]. [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:49, 19 August 2014
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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning the September 11 attacks. To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Is the article biased against conspiracy theories?
A1: Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia so this article presents the accepted version of the events according to reliable sources. Although reliable sources have repeatedly reported on conspiracy theories, reporting on conspiracy theories is not the same thing as advocating conspiracy theories or accepting them as fact. The most recent discussion that resulted in the current consensus took place on this talk page in December 2011. If you disagree with the current status, you are welcome to bring your concerns to the article talk page. Please read the previous discussions on this talk page and try to explain how your viewpoint provides new arguments or information that may lead to a change in consensus. Please be sure to be polite and support your views with citations from reliable sources. Q2: Should the article use the word "terrorist" (and related words)?
A2: Wikipedia:Words to watch states that "there are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia". That being said, "terrorism" is a word that requires extra attention when used in Wikipedia. The consensus, after several lengthy discussions, is that it is appropriate to use the term in a limited fashion to describe the attacks and the executors of these attacks. The contributors have arrived at this conclusion after looking at the overwhelming majority of reliable sources that use this term as well as the United Nations' own condemnation of the attacks.[1] |
September 11 attacks was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (May 24, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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silly question
how come WTC 1 and art center did not go down, but WTC 7 did which was further away? any sources that discuss this? 216.80.122.223 (talk) 04:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- WTC 1 was destroyed in the attacks. The reasons WTC collapsed are discussed in more depth at 7 World Trade Center#9/11 and collapse. VQuakr (talk) 04:34, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- What is WTC1 on this image ? i think it is not one of the twin towers.. and i think it was not destrayed...[2] 173.165.58.86 (talk) 16:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's WTC 1, which was destroyed. The twin towers were WTC 1 and WTC2. Note that One World Trade Center and 7 World Trade Center have since been built, you may be confusing the new building with the old. Acroterion (talk) 16:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- i guess one of the maps may be incorrect: [3] so there is a building in between wtc1 and wtc7. how come it is not destroyed? 173.165.58.86 (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ehm, do you mean 6 WTC? It seems to be the building between WTC1 and WTC7. And it also seems to have been destroyed on 9/11. SK (talk) 18:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- i guess one of the maps may be incorrect: [3] so there is a building in between wtc1 and wtc7. how come it is not destroyed? 173.165.58.86 (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- thanks! that answers the question.. because mostly twins and wtc7 are mentioned in discussions... 216.80.122.223 (talk) 19:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories
An anonymous IP attempting to game the system. This debate is over until the user decides to stop playing these games.
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The associated conspiracy theories are not mentioned at all on this article, other than a brief one sentence acknowledgement of their existence under ‘Aftermath - Cultural’. This is despite the extensive 9/11 conspiracy theories article and even an article describing how many people believe these (Opinion polls about 9/11 conspiracy theories)). I ask whether these should be covered in this article in further detail, assuming it is done properly and neutrally.
As an example, the article Assassination of John F. Kennedy includes both a section corresponding to Part 1 and a sentence in the lead corresponding to Part 2. 86.133.243.146 (talk) 01:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC) Repeated attempts to post puerile nonsense about death rays from space and the like have been appropriately deleted from this talk page. Jonathunder (talk) 17:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC) Response to part 1Response to part 2Threaded discussionNo, the single sentence in the article as of this revision is plenty. See also the FAQ and the (extensive) talk page archives. VQuakr (talk) 07:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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Debate has moved below, please do not re-open this section.
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I peeked in the above conversation, and have to say that I do agree that the conspiracy theories are not given the weight they are due in this very lengthy article. It is deserving of its own subsection, and I say this after reading the wikipedia policies on WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. Even the weather has its own subsection! In fact, the source given for the current single sentence about the conspiracy theories, is itself a lengthy diatribe devoted to the subject at hand. And while I was inspecting the source, I found that it does not say anything at all about the level of support from the historian or scientist community. So while the reference does help to establish the notability of the subject, it does not actually support the sentence in the wikipedia article. Smitty121981 (talk) 07:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Acroterion for acknowledging and addressing the sources that I took the time to compile! I'd like to briefly respond to your points.
So here's my proposed change, which I feel is consistent with the rest of the article. This would be a sub-section in the "Effects" chapter, just like the Weather sub-section. I tried to take into account the concerns brought up in this conversation: I kept it much shorter than the suggested 2-3 paragraphs to avoid giving undue weight, I did not use any sources published by Bentham, I avoided any mention of thermite, I did make sure to include the two Guardian articles provided as well as several new sources from major news networks, and of course (despite preemptive claims to the contrary) I made every effort to maintain WP:NPOV. Conspiracy Theories
Conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 have become a wide-spread social phenomenon.[1][2] Conspiracy advocates state that there is evidence of insider trading before the attack,[3][4] that public objections have been raised by hundreds of professionals and officials,[5][6] and that criticisms have been made of the prevailing theory that the WTC destruction was the result of fire-induced progressive collapse.[7][8][9][10][11] None of the 9/11 conspiracy theories have been accepted by the academic and scientific communities, and several mainstream news sources have published full-length articles dedicated to rebuking the most common theories.[12][13][1][14]
Smitty121981 (talk) 16:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
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9/11
There should be a clarification that 9/11 actually mean "November 9" in most parts of the world (≈91,5%) and that care should be taken to avoid miscommunication.
Even though the English Wikipedia is in English, it should not assume a USA-centric/cultural view on matters/articles.
There are 760 million English speakers in the world and in USA there are 248,3 million that speaks English as their native language, that's only about 33%. Even if you add the 58,1 native English speakers of UK the percentage only goes up to about 40%.
So about 60% of those that speak english have different backgrounds and cultures, and all these 456 million English speakers are a potential user of the English Wikipedia.
So please try to write in a cultural-neutral way and don't assume that everything is done/written/used/handled in the same way all over the world.
I have meet people who believe "9/11" really did happen in November...we should try to be clear enough that people who read a wikipedia-article don't misunderstand anything based on cultural background and also make sure that people understand that stuff (like 9/11) might be interpreted in another way in just about every other country but USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.55.110.220 (talk)
- The first sentence of the article begins with "The September 11 attacks (also referred to as September 11, September 11th, or 9/11)..." and there's a further explanatory footnote. Do you have any suggestions on what else to add? --NeilN talk to me 14:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
- WP:ENGVAR applies here. Since this article is about an event that occurred in the US, and has strong ties to it, the correct formatting should be that which is used in said country. --Tarage (talk) 19:54, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Authenticity of bin Laden confession tape for NPOV
This good faith edit I made has been reverted twice with no real justification. The paragraph I added is sourced from 4 WP:RS news articles. Plus in my opinion it fully adheres to Wikipedia's three core content policies in particular WP:NPOV but also WP:VER & WP:NOR. Any chance of some descussion on this before it is reverted again? Thanks Screamliner (talk) 10:21, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the normal process of WP:BRD is that your bold edit was reverted and now you should seek consensus through discussion. You should not keep readding content without any real discussion and the onus is on you. In my opinion, your edit added a trivial bit piece of information that is unnecessary in such a long article. The view that OBL was involved is widely held. That view has been held since the moment of the bombing and also includes suspicions in the prior WTC bombing, USS Cole and embassy bombings in Africa. Cruise missile attacks in Afghanistan in the Clinton years to strike at OBL confirm this belief. The tape authentication process is trivia unless there are reliable sources claiming OBL was never involved. Since this is not the case and there are no reliable sources that claim OBL was not involved, the addition of that type of material in the lead or the article is trivia that implies doubt where none exists. --DHeyward (talk) 10:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Ok, well I think there should be some level of doubt/scepticism about all information and I do feel my addition is fully justified under WP:NPOV. Anyway I won't revert again and will see if there is any interest in obtaining a consensus on whether or not this bit of information should be included. Thanks again for your response Screamliner (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
- The article already uses too many older news sources and the ones you were adding were also ancient.--MONGO 15:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm against inclusion on the basis that it doesn't really add anything to the article, and the article itself is already quite verbose. --Tarage (talk) 04:32, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with comments above from MONGO and Tarage. David J Johnson (talk) 09:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. Ok, well I think there should be some level of doubt/scepticism about all information and I do feel my addition is fully justified under WP:NPOV. Anyway I won't revert again and will see if there is any interest in obtaining a consensus on whether or not this bit of information should be included. Thanks again for your response Screamliner (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
New comment
Debate has moved below, please do not re-open this section.
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I'm going to ask the regulars here to please stop revert-warring on text additions you don't approve of. Unless it's clear vandalism, discuss it first BEFORE removal. When you revert good faith efforts to improve the article, you are rebuffing new editors and probably making WP's editor flight problem worse. The main objections to the addition, after two rude reverts, appear to be "the sources are old" and "I don't like it that much." Good grief, what a welcoming attitude towards other editors. This is the kind of thing that makes participating in Wikipedia suck. Cla68 (talk) 22:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
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Proposal for intimidation-free zone
Debate has moved below, please do not re-open this section.
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I would like to propose that this article talk page be declared an "intimidation-free" zone. Accordingly, I propose that we all agree that we will be more welcoming to editors who come here trying to improve this article by:
If you agree please sign below. I will, of course, be the first to pledge:
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RfC: Are conspiracy theories relevant to the effects chapter?
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Should the "Effects" chapter contain a sub-section about conspiracy theories? Smitty121981 (talk) 01:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Proposed text for inclusion (please see above for a lengthy discussion on the matter):
Conspiracy theories
- Further information: 9/11 conspiracy theories
Conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 have become a widespread social phenomenon.[1][2][3] Conspiracy advocates state that there is evidence of insider trading before the attack,[4][5][6][7] that public objections have been raised by hundreds of professionals and officials,[8][9][10] and that criticisms have been made of the prevailing theory that the WTC destruction was the result of fire-induced progressive collapse.[11][12][13][14][15] None of the 9/11 conspiracy theories have been accepted by the academic and scientific communities, and several mainstream news sources have published full-length articles dedicated to rebuking the most common theories.[16][4][1][17]
- ^ a b Norman, Joshua (September 11, 2011). "9/11 conspiracy theories won't stop". CBS News. CBS Corporation.
- ^ McGreal, Chris (September 5, 2011). "September 11 conspiracy theories continue to abound". The Guardian. Retrieved 13 August 2014.
- ^ Cass R. Sunstein & Adrian Vermeule, "Conspiracy Theories" (Public Law & Legal Theory Working Papers No. 199, 2008)
- ^ a b McGreal, Chris (September 5, 2011). "9/11 conspiracy theories debunked". The Guardian. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
- ^ Poteshman, Allen M. "Unusual Option Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001*." The Journal of Business 79.4 (2006): 1703-1726.
- ^ Wong, Wing-Keung, Howard E. Thompson, and Kweehong Teh. "Was there Abnormal Trading in the S&P 500 Index Options Prior to the September 11 Attacks?." Available at SSRN 1588523 (2010).
- ^ Chesney, Marc and Crameri, Remo and Mancini, Loriano, "Detecting Informed Trading Activities in the Options Markets" (2010). Swiss Finance Institute Research Paper No. 11-42. Pg. 6. Available at SSRN: http://ssrn.com/abstract=1522157
- ^ Manwell, Laurie A. "In denial of Democracy: Social psychological implications for public discourse on state crimes against democracy post-9/11." American behavioral scientist 53.6 (2010): 848-884.
- ^ "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth". C-SPAN. August 1, 2014. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
- ^ Goldberg, Robert A. (2010). Enemies Within: The Conspiracy Culture of Modern America. Department of History Florida Atlantic University. pp. 6–11.
- ^ Szuladziński, Gregory, Anthony Szamboti, and Richard Johns. "Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis." International Journal of Protective Structures 4.2 (2013): 117-126.
- ^ Grabbe, Crockett (2012). ”Discussion of “Why the Observed Motion History of World Trade Center Towers Is Smooth” by Jia-Liang Le and Zdeněk P. Bažant.” J. Eng. Mech., 138(10), 1298–1300.
- ^ Björkman, Anders (2010). ”Discussion of “What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of World Trade Center Twin Towers in New York?” by Zdeněk P. Bažant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, and David B. Benson.” J. Eng. Mech., 136(7), 933–934.
- ^ Grabbe, Crockett (2010). ”Discussion of “Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis” by K. A. Seffen.” J. Eng. Mech., 136(4), 538–539.
- ^ Gourley, James R. (2008). ”Discussion of “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions” by Zdenĕk P. Bažant and Mathieu Verdure.” J. Eng. Mech., 134(10), 915–916.
- ^ Editors, The. "Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report". Popular Mechanics. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
{{cite web}}
:|last=
has generic name (help) - ^ "9/11 conspiracy theories". BBC Magazine. August 29, 2011. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
Smitty121981 (talk) 01:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- No - See the previous thread. This has been soundly rejected by editors here and this is just an attempt to continue an already rejected idea. Toa Nidhiki05 01:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support- WP:NPOV requires appropriate weight to all aspects of a topic, and having a short paragraph of three sentences or so in this article on the conspiracy theories will help this article better comply with that policy. The proposed paragraph is well-sourced and neutral. Cla68 (talk) 02:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Please keep these to one section. I don't like having to read over multiple different sections of the talk page to find where the current debate is taking place. As a result, I am closing the older above sections. Please do not create a new section until this matter is resolved. Thank you.--Tarage (talk) 09:34, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. The proposed text violates our guidelines on fringe theories, and our policies on neutral point of view and verifiability by presenting 9/11 conspiracy theories as if they are part of some on going debate among qualified professionals or scholars in the appropriate fields (e.g., labeling the known facts as the "prevailing theory", or by citing submitted journal comments by well known, non-qualified, non-specialist, conspiracy theorists as if they carried any weight, etc.). The "theories" advanced by the "truth movement" have been debunked, dismissed, discarded, or ignored by effectively all of the published, mainstream, authoritative, and reliable sources on the topic. The coverage of these conspiracy theories in reliable sources does mean that they satisfy WP:NOTABLE, and thus pass the test necessary to have their own article in Wikipedia. However, satisfying the requirements for possible inclusion does not make any of the claims made by adherents notable for anything other than being conspiracy theories, nor does it mean the fringe views of conspiracy theorists need to be represented in an article on a mainstream topic (see WP:ONEWAY). • The text fails to metion that the main reason the academic and scientific communities have not accepted any of these conspiracy theories is the simple fact that none of the "theories" are supported by the findings of any of the investigations that have been conducted (e.g., by the NIST, the building performance study team, published as FEMA 403: World Trade Center Building Performance Study, consisting of experts representing the American Institute of Steel Construction Inc. (AISC), American Concrete Institute (ACI), Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), International Code Council (ICC), National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY), The Masonry Society (TMS), National Council of Structural Engineers Associations (NCSEA), Structural Engineering Institute (SEI) of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and New York Department of Design and Construction (DDC), or any of those conducted by independent organizations and institutions, including the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), Purdue University, Northwestern University, Columbia University, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), and Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.). • There is also the misrepresentation of sources as "dedicated to rebuking the most common theories" when in fact those articles are dedicated to debunking conspiracy theories — rebuke, verb: "Express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions"[7]; debunk, verb: "Expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)"[8]. See also my comments above. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support per WP:PARITY. -A1candidate (talk) 14:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support in theory. Not in that form, but the accuracy of the first sentence merits its inclusion in the article. However, "hundreds of professionals..." is just wrong (I see no way to keep similar incorrect information out of the article) and some (if not all) of the others are undue weight considering the small amount of information in the article related to the alleged criticism. I think it appropriate to include just the first sentence under "Effects" — Arthur Rubin (talk)
- Oppose Not only no, but hell no. There is already an entire article dedicated to the idea that some people do not conform to the normal practices of society and therefore will believe any crackpot theory, even if it cannot be proven. This article is about the events of the September 11th attacks, and as such, should only contain proven facts. It should not, however, contain any fairy tales from the land of make-believe. As far as I'm concerned, this article already gives too much weight to the fictional theories that evolved after this tragic event.--JOJ Hutton 16:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Per WP:NPOV. We should not be giving undue weight to a fringe theory. If I may paraphrase Jimbo's famous e-mail of Sep 29, 2003 which is the key part of the NPOV policy: What do mainstream history texts say on the matter? What do the majority of prominent historians say on the matter? Is there significant debate one way or the other within mainstream historians on this point?
- If your viewpoint is held by the majority of historians, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
- If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent historians, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
- If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then _whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not_, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article.
- At best, this belongs in an ancilliary article, and that ancilliary article already exists: 9/11 conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
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