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Current disputes

Talk:David L. Jones

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Ronz on 17:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:David L. Jones (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ronz (talk · contribs)
• Jeh (talk · contribs)
• ゼーロ (talk · contribs)
• Tsavage (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There are very few available sources about Jones, and none in depth about him, though we have established notability. Of what sources we have available editors disagree on their quality and how they may be used within our policies. Editors disagree on how to apply relevant policies (especially BLP and NOT). More recently, editors are concerned that the editing environment is no longer collaborative or otherwise conducive to editing.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Suggestions for: looking at similar GA articles Talk:David_L._Jones#Searching_for_similar_GA_articles, starting a BLPN discussion (@ 17:35, 26 October 2015), starting some clear RfCs (@ 17:13, 4 November 2015), taking a break from the article (@ 23:56, 5 November 2015). I've taken a break from the article since.

How do you think we can help?

I'm hoping at this will get editors to agree to disagree, follow WP:DR, and get on track to working collaboratively.

Summary of dispute by Jeh

I agree with the broad outlines of the "dispute overview" as described above by Ronz.

And apologies to the moderator's request, but this dispute is about editor behavior. And since the opening "overview" by Ronz mentions the "editing environment" as an issue, such discussion is completely in-bounds.

The disagreements are largely over interpretation of P&G such as BLP, NPOV, UNDUE, SOAP, and PROMO. My impression is that every attempt to add referenced material to the article is met with a barrage of such acronyms, which in almost all cases are being applied far too broadly.

BLP for example is repeatedly cited to support removal of completely non-contentious material. Primary sources are simply deleted even though there is no blanket ban, not even at BLP, on their use, only requiring that they be used carefully (avoiding OR, etc.). Any mention of Jones that is not openly negative is challenged as "non-neutral", "promotional" or "soapboxing" and just about everything about him is branded as "undue".

In many cases I have quoted the relevant P&G and asked specifically how the article text violates them. I have not received satisfactory replies, only generalities.

For example, by my reading, WP:DUE is about inclusion, or not, of differing opinions about a contested point; non-mainstream views should not be given "undue" weight - I have no disagreement there. But I have yet to see a reasonable explanation of how this applies to anything added to the article, except that some seem to consider just about anything written about Jones to be "undue". Similarly, direct quotes are challenged as requiring secondary sources even though the proposed article text is not doing anything but citing what the source said. A "neutrality" tag was recently slapped on the entire article, but despite requests, it remains unclear just what points of contention exist (other than that Jones deserves an article at all), i.e. exactly what the article is accused of being non-neutral about. And no sources (or even credible but unsourced claims) have been provided for material that would argue against the article's anything the article says. ゼーロ for example once made a vague reference to "negative aspects of Jones' work" but provided no details. In my book that is nothing but rock-throwing.

It is worth noting that ゼーロ was the proposer of the second deletion attempt. Ronz is hardly a neutral party regarding this article either, having voted for the article's deletion in both deletion discussions and also arguing against several "keep" voters' points ([1], [2]). Following the first failure-to-delete Ronz took it upon himself to stub the article, removing many of the references that were cited in the deletion discussion to support the subject's notability. Again, no specific reasons, just "BLP violations" - i.e. throwing rocks with "BLP" painted on them.

Since then Ronz has generally assumed the role of article WP:OWNer and gatekeeper, responding to objections and requests for specifics with e.g. "sorry you don't like it".

Then Ronz opens a DRN case and mentions the "editing environment" as a problem! Yes, it's a problem.

Summary of dispute by ゼーロ

Note that I have some health issues so it might take me some time to complete this or respond.

The article has many, many issues. It was a reasonable stub, but Tsavage has been adding a great deal of very poor material to it. When this material is questioned he frankly seems obtuse. I can't really believe that anyone could so consistently misunderstand clearly stated points. If you read the discussion Tsavage twists and stretches the guidelines beyond reason to justify the inclusion of material that is single sourced, often from primary sources, and which is both biased and overly detailed. This person has been asked to discuss the material before adding it to the article, but they do not and revert any edits that improve or remove problematic parts. Essentially, Tsavage has made any kind of discussion or consensus impossible to reach.

Examples of specific issues include the entire Batteriser controversy section, which is a poor summary of the single source on which it is based, followed by some original research to build a case that Jones was the victim of a cyberattack. The sources are rather weak anyway - Jones' own claim, a blog post by a Dell security researcher who does not appear to have done much research, and an IBT article which doesn't actually confirm what Tsavage's text claims (it merely states that this may have happened but no-one knows, not that it did happen as the text implies). Please see the talk page for a more complete list of the problems with this and other sections.

It appears that Tsavage has drawn a conclusion from the single source, and is determined to include a paragraph that leads the reader to it. Any attempt to even fix the language used is reverted if it doesn't support this conclusion, e.g. the use of the weasel word "claimed" for statements that are not disputed. The article isn't even about Batteriser, but Tsavage seems determined to portray Jones as having "taken them down".

It's doubtful if the whole thing is even notable, and we must be aware that Jones publishes these videos for commercial gain.

The uWatch section is an example of how Tsavage is unable to distinguish puffery from useful encyclopaedic information. More over, it is typical of his attempts to show Jones' in a positive light.

The whole article needs major revisions. For example, it states that "EEVBlog was launched as a YouTube channel". That is clearly incorrect - it's a blog, it wasn't launched as there was no announcement or event at the time of the first video. It was just a hobby project, a series of occasional videos. This is followed up with some out of date and unimportant stats that only serve to talk Jones up. Attempts to improve this part have all been reverted by Tsavage.

Considering that this is a BLP article and much of the material is disputed, it is clear to me that it should be edited down considerably and new additions carefully discussed. The article has a severe lack of secondary sources which makes including material difficult.

Summary of dispute by Tsavage

I broadly agree with the "Dispute overview," with additional detail:

• My original involvement with article and subject, David L. Jones, occurred with random participation in AfD David_L._Jones_(2nd_nomination) keep, 2 October 2015. I voted "keep" and stayed to help improve it to a minimum post-stub state.

• Since the AfD, the majority of edits to add content have been challenged by Ronz or ゼーロ, usually with reference to one or more of WP:PRIMARY, WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, and WP:SOAP. Content is aggressively deleted, and umbrella and inline tags liberally and frequently applied.

• I have consistently disagreed with Ronz (talk · contribs)'s application of policies and guidelines, as too broadly referenced and therefore unclear (e.g. linking to WP:BLP with no further detail), or too narrowly interpreted or entirely unreasonable, and lacking in further discussion. That said, some issues we seem to have resolved (e.g. [3], [4], [5])

• I have consistently disagreed with ゼーロ (talk · contribs), who from editing activity, appears primarily committed to removing as much content as possible for whatever reason may fit, with claims including BLP violations, advertising, unsupported, and not noteworthy.

• I have had no disagreement with Jeh (talk · contribs) (and have agreed with Jeh's PAG counterarguments).

• I have attempted at length to discuss all issues on the Talk page, and have so far avoided noticeboards and RfCs, as in this particular situation, I believe they would likely squander the time of additional editors by perhaps resolving relatively minor individual issues, while not resolving the problem with the overall editing environment. All of this has been stated in Talk.

--Tsavage (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:David L. Jones discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion, most of it recent, at the article talk page. The filing party refers to starting some clear RFCs. However, it appears that the filing party merely proposed starting some clear RFCs. If there were an open RFC at the article talk page, it would preclude discussion here, but, since there isn't a current RFC, this dispute is ready for acceptance here, except that the filing party has not notified the other editors on their talk pages. I am neither accepting nor declining this case, but leaving it open for the filing party to notify the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Other editors notified. Waiting on replies by other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:04, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

Three of the four editors have submitted statements. Since participation is voluntary, the silence of a fourth editor does not prevent three editors from engaging in moderated discussion, and the fourth editor may also join. I am opening this case for moderated discussion. I expect every editor to comment at least every 48 hours, and I will check on the discussion every 24 hours. Please be civil and concise, and comment on content, not contributors. (There is too much commenting on contributors above). Do not reply to the statements of other editors; that is, do not engage in threaded discussion. Address your comments to me. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

It appears that some editors want to insert certain material into the article that other editors consider poorly sourced or undue weight. Will each editor please state concisely (some of the above statements are not concise) what they think the issues are, without commenting on other editors? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

First statements by editors

A central issue is that what may be noteworthy—important, of central relevance and interest—within an article is entirely different from what may be considered to be notable or noteworthy or non-trivial elsewhere. For example, if Jones is involved in a controversy that is significant to him and his work, that should be covered in appropriate detail in the article, regardless of how high that controversy may rank in importance against all other controversies that exist.

There's been detailed discussion on the Talk page. I'm not sure of how much of that should be repeated here. --Tsavage (talk) 06:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The uWatch section contains a lot of puffery and the sources are of dubious quality, not appearing to be serious reviews of the work, rather little more than repeats of a press release. They don't appear to have used the watch themselves. There are many, many, many similar electronics projects on the internet and it isn't clear that this one is notable.

The Batteriser main section is not an accurate summary of the single source. A single source is not really enough to warrant inclusion anyway. The second part about the YouTube dislikes is based on blog posts that are given undue weight, and the main reason for including this material appears to be to cast Batteroo in a bad light.

Since this article is not about Batteriser, the amount of detail is unwarranted.

The EEVBlog section uses puffery ("launched") and is nothing more than trivia and already out of date statistics, and there is no value in gathering them here.

Attempts to repeatedly add a section about Jones' April fools jokes are based on single primary sources, not notable, trivia and impossible to properly verify in terms of notability or impact.

Sorry I can't be any more concise, but there are a lot of issues with this page. I've omitted some and concentrated on the worst. ゼーロ (talk) 09:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

One editor says that, contrary to my instructions, it is necessary to discuss editor conduct. It isn't necessary or appropriate to discuss editor conduct at this noticeboard. This noticeboard is for the discussion of content. Very often, conduct issues develop because of contention about content issues, and often resolving the content issues can make the source of the conduct issues go away. If anyone doesn't want to talk about content, they don't have to participate here, but I would urge them to participate, because resolving content issues often solves the problem. If anyone is insistent on addressing conduct issues, such as tendentious editing, disruptive editing, article ownership, or incivility, they may open a threat at WP:ANI, but then I will find it necessary to fail this thread. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Assuming that the editors are willing to work on content, I will ask two specific questions, as well as asking the other editors whether any other questions should be asked. First, should the Batteriser controversy be mentioned, and why or why not? Second, should the uWatch be mentioned, and why or why not? Is there any other content that should be added to the article. One editor says that the article has many problems, but they don't specify how a short article can have so many problems. Are there any other specific problems with the article?

Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

In answer to your questions, I think the Batteriser section should be removed. The first paragraph is based on a single source, and not even a particularly good one as it's basically a "he said/she said" mud throwing competition between the two sides. Editors appear unable to agree on a neutral, accurate summary either. This section has more detail than the actual Batteriser article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser) which is where this material should be, if anywhere. It is only included here as part of an on-going effort to make Jones look important, after the "April fools" blog nonsense was rejected.

The second paragraph is again suffering from poor sources. The main one seems to be Jones himself, and the other two blogs don't seem to have looked into the issue at all and merely pointed to his claims and his own minimal investigation as their sources. It fails to meet WP standards, and isn't even really related to Jones directly.

The uWtach should be included, but only as a single sentence as part of the main body text, rather than as a section. Most of that section is just puffery based on articles written by people who appear to have read Jones' press release and web site, but not actually used the uWatch themselves. One is based on a prototype, not even the final version, and it was only ever available in kit form. Even a single sentence is pushing it for me due to the lack of good non-primary sources, but I realize other editors feel strongly that it should be mentioned.

Other issues include the low number of good, non-primary sources and the amount of trivia/raw stats without context in the article. Is 290,000 subscribers particularly interesting for some reason? Why mention it at all? Seems like an editor decided it was impressive by YouTube vblogger standards, which goes against guidelines and border on original research. I'd also suggesting changing "EEVBlog was launched as a YouTube channel" to "The EEBlog account was created on YouTube" since there was no "launch" as such, no event surrounding the first video that was just Jones' in his garage. "Channel" is YouTube nomenclature, but seems to rather exaggerate what it was back then. Are a couple of 5 minute amateur videos filmed in a garage a "channel"? ゼーロ (talk) 09:43, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to add, the "industry reaction" section should not be restored. It's all primary sources, most of them are just press releases and commercial blog posts intended to promote the company in question. It's laughable to suggest that there even was a reaction in most cases, beyond the standard ham-fisted social media interaction regularly done by marketing departments. The only exception is Microchip, which may possibly warrant a mention but certainly not a section. Again, it's a one line thing, and totally reliant on primary/low quality sources. ゼーロ (talk) 09:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Second statement by Tsavage:

In answer to the moderator's questions:

Why Batteriser?: The series of events that we have labeled the "Batteriser controversy" describes a media-reported extended reaction to Jones' work on EEVBlog. Jones and EEVBlog are known for in-depth, uncompromising product reviews; the Batteriser content records the significant impact of one such review, and as such, it is noteworthy for this article.

Why µWatch?: This is an electronic device (a scientific calculator watch) designed by Jones, made available as project plans and open source software, and as an assemble-it-yourself kit. It received significant coverage in electronics media. As such, it is noteworthy for this article.

What other content should be included?: On 23 October 2015, I posted to the article Talk page a list of items I believe could and should be included, given the available sources at the time:

• who Jones is - electronics engineer and problogger from Australia
• description of his vehicles, EEVBlog and Amp Hour
• stats for his products: archives, subscribers, views, etc
• general breakdown of his content, e.g. episode titles and content summaries to illustrate types of content (reviews, instructional, etc)
• description of his style (outspoken, in-depth, at-length...) and his transition to full-time blogger (we can carefully use his quotes in this, per WP:SELFPUB)
• industry reaction to his work (we have various sources, like Microchip, Tektronix, etc that could form an "Industry reaction" segment)
• a controversial situation with Batteriser (beyond being a single incident, it speaks to his overall outspoken style and willingness to critique and offer negative views, i.e. it's not padding)

Some of these are in the article now, other items are pending. An "Industry reaction" section was published and deleted for relying on primary sources, and is under discussion. Since then, based on new sources, additional items have been added to the article:

• μCurrent, an electronics testing device designed by Jones, currently available as a commercial product, and well-covered in electronics media.
• µWatch, as above.

Questions that should be asked:

• How should noteworthiness be determined for this article, what is the practical test for what merits inclusion?
• How should we determine weight within the article, what is the practical test to determine how much detail to include for each item covered?

--Tsavage (talk) 22:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator

Two of the editors have replied, one opposing inclusion of the Batteriser and the µWatch, one in support of their inclusion. The one other section that has now been proposed for inclusion is µCurrent. Please state why it should or should not be described. Do the other two editors want to comment on the inclusion or exclusion of these three inventions? Also, I have a question for those editors who oppose the inclusion of any of the specific sections about Jones: What should be included, since it has been agreed that the article should be kept? Also, is each of the editors willing to agree to rely on Requests for Comments on the inclusion or exclusion of the questioned material? What else does any editor want to discuss? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

Tsavage replies to moderator's latest questions:

• Include μCurrent?: μCurrent is already in the article, as a brief mention, unchallenged so far. Reason for inclusion is the same as for µWatch: a product designed by Jones, covered in reliable sources.
• Rely on RfCs for determining content inclusion?: This doesn't seem practical. It would involve multiple RfCs, uninvolved editor participation would likely be extremely low, fake editors would likely be involved (see last AfD, where several accounts were discounted), and discussion extremely drawn out and unlikely to arrive at consensus (if the Talk discussion to date is any indication). If this DR process fails, why would multiple RfCs be likely to succeed?
• Other matters to discuss?: Strictly concerning content, no (apart from the previously asked: "how should noteworthiness and weight be determined for this article, what are the practical tests?").

Point of clarification: The moderator's third statement noted in part: "The one other section that has now been proposed for inclusion is µCurrent." In fact, as listed in my second statement, there are several content items that have been put forth and are pending: Industry reaction, general description of EEVBlog content, and description of Jones' transition to full-time blogger.

In addition, for my part, my editing is not complete on Batteriser or µCurrent, where noteworthy details are still absent, so any discussion of inclusion should at the same time consider what details of each content item are acceptable, else new disputes are likely to spring up over each new detail (as has already happened in-article, and is evident in discussion here). --Tsavage (talk) 06:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

ゼーロ replies to moderator's latest questions:

The current brief mention of the uCurrent is reasonable. Like the uWatch section, there are few good sources so it is hard to see how it could reasonably be expanded.

Given the available sources, I think that the main header section is fine, and should be expanded to include a sentence about each of the uWatch and uCurrent, and to incorporate the EEVBlog section with the stats cut down to facts about the start date and maybe the odd milestone (so they don't become out of date immediately like the current content). YouTube has the stats, a link is all that is required, no need to copy/paste them here.

The Batteriser section should stay but be heavily cut down. I propose:

Batteriser is a product designed to increase battery life. Without having the product physically on hand, Jones published a video blog discussion of Batteroo's claims, concluding that it was unlikely to meet the advertised 8x increase in most common use cases. Batteroo, the San Jose tech startup behind the Batteriser, published a series of videos refuting Jones' claims [6].

In light of jeh's comments, I have revised:

Batteriser is an as yet unreleased product designed to increase battery life. Jones published a video blog discussion of Batteroo's claims about it, concluding that it was unlikely to meet the advertised 8x increase in most common use cases. Batteroo, the San Jose tech startup behind the Batteriser, published a series of videos refuting Jones' claims [7], to which Jones responded with further videos of his own.

I was considering keeping the "down vote" bit, but Jones has since contradicted himself in a forum post where he claims that even down-votes benefit a channel as they count as "interaction". I can't find the link right now but I'll try to dig it out. In any case, it's all primary sources, he said/she said and not really fair on Batteroo who have denied involvement.

While I'd support RfCs in principal, I too am concerned that the discussion would be flooded with "fake editors", for want of a better term. The nomination for deletion was a debacle, with reasonable comments discounted and many editors prompted by discussion on the EEVBlog forum piling in to vote "keep" without having engaged in or read the discussion. Afterwards they made no attempt to improve the article or participate further. Furthermore the two other editors who have been working on this article aren't even participating here. Still, if you think it could be made to work then I'd support it.

--ゼーロ (talk) 09:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Reply by jeh to moderator's latest questions:

First, I apologize for a) my first remarks; I did not understand the process here (that we can only discuss specific items of content) and b) not participating further. I've been swamped by "real-world" work and this sort of took off without me.

ゼーロ's proposed "Batteriser section" is unacceptable on several counts. First, the device is not even an obtainable product yet; it is only promised. The phrasing gives no hint that it's not yet shipping. This in turn makes Jones look foolish for doing his analyses "without having the product physically on hand", when of course to have the product on hand would be impossible; the phrasing also completely ignores that analysis according to well-accepted theory is standard engineering practice and completely defensible. (If someone claims to have a bucket into which I can pour a liter of water, and then pour out two liters, I don't need to have the bucket in my hand to know that the claim is absurd.) The phrasing "designed to increase" also will lead the reader to assume that there's nothing wrong with the device and Jones must therefore be mistaken. Furthermore, this article is about David L. Jones and a section on something he said about Batteriser should not begin with a sentence describing the product as if it a) is shipping and b) works; the latter is yet to be demonstrated. Jones has posted at least one video refuting Batteroo's responses; the reader should not be left to assume that Batteroo refuted Jones and Jones just folded his cards and went home as a result. Mention should also be made of other sources that support Jones' analyses. A complaint will no doubt be made about "a said/b said"-style writing, but if that's what happened, what else are we supposed to write?

The plethora of "Improvement" tags: If we come to an agreement here on a "Batteriser section", a "uWatch section", and a "uCurrent" section, are we thereby agreeing that the various tags that have been added to these sections (disputed-section, advert, unreliable source, undue) will be removed and will stay removed?

What else does any editor want to discuss? I want to discuss the neutrality tag that's at the top of the article. I would like to hear exactly what claims made in the article are accused of being "non-neutral", or of failing to adequately represent any contrary point of view. Any such contrary view must, of course, be not WP:UNDUE (e.g. the opinions of one person who doesn't like Jones would be WP:UNDUE) and must have good references (because, as the article is now overall positive toward Jones, contrary claims would be negative and per WP:BLP must be exceptionally well referenced). Vague claims on the talk page were made about the article not representing ~"negative aspects of Jones' work" but no details, let alone references, were ever supplied. In the absence of any such well-referenced details and claims this tag must be removed. You shouldn't be able to slap a "non-neutral" tag on an article just because nobody can find anything bad to say about the subject or any of his works. And as far as I can see that's what it amounts to now.

Admin trivia: Shouldn't this entire section be labeled "David L. Jones" and not "talk:David L. Jones"? The dispute is about the content of the article, not its talk page. Jeh (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

• At the time when it was discussed (quite a long time ago), the sourcing and encyclopedic value of mentioning uCurrent seemed very good. It still appears worth inclusion, though I think it worth building on the old discussions and looking for more sources.
• Batteriser has similar sources, though it's of less value in it being speculation based upon the product announcements and associated publicity. Still, there appears to be enough to for mention.
• The uWatch sources are far worse, but they appear to be enough to keep it from exclusion. Still, a good argument could be made that the sources don't get us past WP:NOTNEWS and WP:SOAP concerns. I don't see how the sources justify an entire section about uWatch by any means. I don't think the pre-release sources should be used at all per NOTNEWS and SOAP.
• RfCs are standard dispute resolution tools, and I cannot imagine why RfCs shouldn't be used. --Ronz (talk) 18:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

UFC 193

– New discussion.

Filed by George Ho on 23:22, 16 November 2015 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• UFC 193 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• George Ho (talk · contribs)
• Muboshgu (talk · contribs)
• Udar55 (talk · contribs)
• Hahnchen (talk · contribs)
• Ppt1973 (talk · contribs)
• Gsfelipe94 (talk · contribs)
• Andise1 (talk · contribs)
• Athomeinkobe (talk · contribs)
• Imhungry4444 (talk · contribs)
• Lukejordan02 (talk · contribs)
• Hasteur (talk · contribs)
• InedibleHulk (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This article is nominated to be In the News. Somehow, users who frequently specialized on UFC pages keep removing content to be consistent with other articles about UFC events, like UFC 155 and UFC 175. I invited those who constantly removed content for talk. Somehow, only one did not respond but instead started another thread of same issue. I want this article to be featured in the Main Page, but only several of us added descriptions of events.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I made replies in user pages and invited users for talk. This has been discussed in the article talk page also. Also, I requested full protection at WP:RPP. I haven't reported a violation of 3RR because no one has yet violated the rule. I discussed a minor issue—bolding awards—at Project talk page, but no one responded there, so I moved it to article talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I want a lot of volunteers, novice and experienced alike. Also, I don't want anyone blocked for this matter. Also, people should be encouraged to discuss anything they want. Also, people should learn to accept and appreciate good (if not best) quality.

Summary of dispute by Muboshgu

Guess I should have watchlisted this article. It was posted at WP:ITN but pulled erroneously, IMO. These MMA editors keeping valid material off the page isn't helping get it reposted. Keeping it off because it's not uniform with the past UFC event pages is not acceptable. If anything, it suggests the first 192 pages are incomplete and should be expanded. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Udar55

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Hahnchen

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Ppt1973

I don't have much of an opinion either way on the expansion of the article. As InedibleHulk has stated, there just needs to be consistency. Some of the content that has been added seems to be relevant, while other not so much. Several users have contributed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts, which can always be improved. Ppt1973 (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Gsfelipe94

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Andise1

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I'm not going to make this a most asking for pity or anything like that. However, I spent quite a bit of time adding information on the actual fights to the article, making the wording better, adding a reaction section (per suggestion at ITN/C), yet other editors who are not involved at ITN want to revert this beneficial, sourced information. I knew this was going to have a tough time getting posted. That's why I spent quite a bit of time updating the article to the best I could get it to. I wouldn't have spent time adding this information had I known these UFC editors would revert everything I added. One of the editors (who was against the sections I added) said the article was about the event, not the fights. Well, without the fights there would be no event. How can an article about an event exist without any information about what went on in the event? It truly disappoints me that editors would revert sourced information that I (and others) spent time adding. These UFC editors seem to think they own the UFC articles, which is obviously not true. Such a shame, this had/has a chance at being on the main page. Andise1 (talk) 00:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Athomeinkobe

I was the editor who requested pending changes protection of the article last week because IPs kept changing the date (it was held on the 15th in Australia, which was the night of the 14th in the US). I have also done some tweaking of other wording throughout the article, but have not significantly contributed to the text. To that extent, I do not consider myself "invovled" in this dispute, but I will give my thoughts on the issue.
It has caught my attention that at least one editor does not want this article to stray from the format which is used in other UFC articles. Looking at the articles for UFC 192, 191, etc., it is clear that the pattern is to describe in great detail the "background" of who was meant to be fighting and why they didn't, but then a simple table of the results with no further mention of what actually happened on the night. Compare that to the recap section of the article about the recent Mayweather vs. Pacquiao boxing match. That article was approved for the In The News section of the main page back in May. The analysis of the actual event is the clear difference between the two.
It goes without saying that for this or any sports article to be of real benefit to a reader weeks or years after the event, then it needs to have a description of the action. The fans of UFC who spend a lot of time cultivating the Background section of the article are surely the most knowledgable about the sport, so they would be in a great position to help write a good decription (with reference to reliable sources of course). In this instance, it would have the extra benefit of perhaps seeing the article appear on the main page of Wikipedia, giving greater exposure to their favourite sport. The alternative is that it remains a bare list that fans will only ever spend 5 seconds looking at before moving on. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:18, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Imhungry4444

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Lukejordan02

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Hasteur

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

While I have not participated in this specific article I would note that the format of MMA event articles has come about through several rounds of negotiation and consensus building and strongly suggest that the current format remains. I would also suggest that this be sent back to the Article's talk page as the filer of this DRN post has yet to make a post challanging the removal of content. Furthermore it seems like there is already a reasoned consensus (as represented in Marc Kupper's 20:41, 16 November 2015 post). I recuse myself from acting in any DRN Volunteer role with respect to this as I have a well appreciated COI with respect to MMA articles. Hasteur (talk) 01:26, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by InedibleHulk

I don't really have an opinion on whether we should detail the main and co-main fights. On one hand, it's far more informative. On the other, it's far more work. As long as there's consistency, and we're not just doing it to pander.

Regardless of whether ITN ever considers a major sporting event with massive coverage like this more signfificant than MotoGP races, rowing and the like, I think we should consistently use lowercase for common nouns (i.e., weight classes). It's just proper English, even if non-fans aren't looking. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:59, November 17, 2015 (UTC)

UFC 193 discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

•  Volunteer note:  Verified There has been significant prior discussion on the article talk page. JQTriple7 (talk) 01:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note:  Verified All parties have been notified. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 01:16, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note: DRN volunteer observation. The list of participants is incomplete and does not include the DRN volunteer, User:Hasteur. If Hasteur has not participated in the dispute, should their observation be changed to a DRN volunteer note? Perhaps this still works if the editor is recusing for COI and involvement in the general area. Please see this as a simple note and technical question and does not involve the dispute.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps discuss on talkpage for the time and post consensus if reached in timely manner then Mark Miller? For now, I have added them to the list since they have recused their rights as a volunteer to participate in discussion as an editor, but happy to be reverted on the listing aspect of this edit if inappropriate (just don't catch my comment in the revert if anyone does so). Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 04:05, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

It's an open ended question. We really don't have any guideline for when a volunteer adds themselves to a discussion in this manner and then recuses themselves, so this isn't about anything more than whether that should have been added as a volunteer note and not about adding them to the DRN that they have admitted to not being involved in. That can be reverted. Sorry for the distraction but the way that looked I thought the volunteer was involved in the DRN. This is not the case and is only that the volunteer is involved in the general subject and is recusing themselves as a volunteer for this reason. The editor in question is highly experienced and this is unique only in that a volunteer has made a note in a manner that made it look as if they were a participant and it seems that in some ways they are. I see this as nothing more than taking note of the editor's involvement in both DRN and the general subject but accept their recusal and contribution as noted. It may be that I am being too technical for newcomers here. Sorry if this was a disruption. Carry on and happy editing.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:34, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Mark. Volunteers here always have the choice of either participating here as a volunteer or joining the dispute as a participant (even if they have not done so before the filing here). If they join as a participant they are, of course, conflicted out of participating here as a volunteer, but there's no reason they cannot participate as a party to the dispute. The only problem that causes is that there may not be another volunteer who can satisfy our rule (at the top of this page) that, "Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute." But that can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 06:48, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Eh, no worries for me, I think I am getting your "too technical" point now Mark Miller, as I must have missed it by a few ballparks. You're saying that Hasteur should have possibly used a {{V note}} to let others know that Hasteur was not involved as a "Volunteer" but as a "Typical Editor" instead of adding the note in their 'Summary of dispute'? I suppose it is merely a technical question, but probably important to mention somewhere for future cases to avoid confusion. Anyway, I've hatted the conversation to reduce "distraction". Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 06:53, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Do not hat or collapse a volunteer's note to the DRN. My contribution related only to the manner in which a volunteer of this board added comment and recusal and was technical but relevant and has precendent.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

 Self-trout. Sorry Mark, the collapse was only meant to reduce distraction to the UFC case discussion, not to imply it wasn't relevant or anything. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 07:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Before you go off running and screaming abuse, you might want to consider my statement itself I recuse myself from acting in any DRN Volunteer role with respect to this as I have a well appreciated COI with respect to MMA articles. I would also note that just before I posted my statement, I removed myself from the list of DRN volunteers that the bot checks for updating the DRN case template. I was previously heavily involved in the MMA space in upholding the policies for standards and therefore can't claim that I'm impartial with respect to this content space. Per my own declaration of COI on my use page from the previous involvement (see the MMA wars of 2012/2013 up to WP:GS/MMA) I am self restricted from participating as a DR volunteer, however this sub-local consensus form on one page is not appropriate. If you can't secure consensus (and as I indicated above from the article talk page) at the article talk page, you appeal to the governing wikiproject, if you can't secure the consensus there, you bring it for RFC to secure consensus. Not having this in ITN is not going to be the downfall of the wikipedia. Hasteur (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Hasteur. This wasn't about abuse. Just noting that you were a volunteer. The list I checked still showed your bio. As I said, you are an experienced editor and volunteer and I was sure there was a reason, but as a long term volunteer here myself I was not aware you removed yourself from the list for this DRN. As I understand it then, you are still a volunteer here, but since you are self restricted from participation as a "DRN Volunteer", you have temporarily removed yourself from the bot recognition list to add comment. I understand. Feel free to add comment when you feel inclined as a participant of the DRN. Thanks for explaining.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Greater Rayalaseema

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by LovSLif on 08:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Greater Rayalaseema (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved LovSLif (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Article 'Greater Rayalaseema' should not be on Wikipedia since it is just based on some politicians' demand. If this is ignored then someone might create articles raising demand to merge other region's areas in their region to make it Greater. In fact , the districts 'prakasam or nellore' are part of costal Andhra Pradesh but not part of rayalaseema. Such demand for greater rayalaseema is just a word from the mouth of few politicians from rayalaseema region. People like me who are from praksam or Nellore districts are strictly opposing this concept of merging andshowing our areas in rayalaseema region. It is hurting our sentiments and we never agree to such an idea of showing us in rayalaseema map. Have you tried to resolve this previously? posted on talk page How do you think we can help? Please delete this article as soon as possible keeping our sentiments in mind Summary of dispute by Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:Greater Rayalaseema discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Volunteer note: There doesn't seem to be a dispute in this instance. This notice board is for content disputes between multiple editors. You may recommend the article for deletion, although I don't think that would be a good idea. Continue to discuss the issue on the talk page. I am declining this case. JQTriple7 (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Shah Rukh_Khan#perhaps_the_world.27s_biggest_movie_star.3F

– New discussion.

Filed by Bollyjeff on 02:22, 18 November 2015 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Shah Rukh Khan#perhaps the world.27s biggest movie star.3F (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Bollyjeff (talk · contribs)
• Semitransgenic (talk · contribs)
• Fideliosr (talk · contribs)
• Human3015 (talk · contribs)
• Vensatry (talk · contribs)
• Kailash29792 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The article Shah Rukh Khan passed FA and TFA recently with a certain sourced statement in the lead and blurb. A couple days after it was TFA, someone thought that this statement should be removed. Since that time several other editors have chimed in on the discussion page, some agreeing with this, some wanting to keep it as it was, and some wanting to go even further in the direction that it was. DRN was suggested a couple times so I thought of giving this a try. I am the editor who took this article to GA, FA, and TFA, and I think that something along these lines needs to be in the lead for our readers.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Many more sources were brought to light upon request supporting the statement, and alternative statements were proposed, edited in, and rejected. The current form is different than the TFA version.

How do you think we can help?

Maybe we need some un-involved parties to help resolve the conflict now. There may be some involved who have some sort of agenda (this has also been suggested on the talk page).

Summary of dispute by Semitransgenic

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Fideliosr

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Human3015

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Read this FA version (first para of lead), which says "Described by the Los Angeles Times as perhaps "the world's biggest movie star"". Some editors had concern that it is view of that journalist and not of LA Times, and it is "paid news". Some users said that chief executive editor or owner of that news agency should say that he is "biggest star" then only we can attribute to News agency. There are several other sources who call him "biggest star" as seen in this version. Most of sources called him biggest star in terms of number of people know him. Around 3.5 billion people around the world knows him. [8], [9], [10], [11] all these news sources saying that SRK has around 3.5 billion audience but as per other parties these are "paid news". I think we can simply write that "Shah Rukh Khan is known as biggest film star in the world in terms of number of people know him, it is estimated that around 3.5 billion people around the world know him". --Human3015^TALK  12:21, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Vensatry

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Kailash29792

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I have just tried supporting the article being how it was during its FAC pass, and TFA appearance. I supported the LA Times quote about the actor being in the lead because, even though it praises him, we are maintaining neutrality by quoting someone else rather than praise him through our own words. Kailash29792 (talk) 11:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Shah Rukh_Khan#perhaps_the_world.27s_biggest_movie_star.3F discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extensive discussion at the article talk page. However, the filing party has not notified the other editors. Another editor may provide a procedural close if the filing editor does not first notify the other editors. The filing editor can notify all of the other editors. I am not opening or closing this case, but it may be closed if the filing editor does not notify the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:04, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

They have now been notified. BollyJeff | talk 04:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

•  Volunteer note:  Verified All involved parties have been notified on their talk pages. JQTriple7 (talk) 05:05, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
•  Note to participants: Can parties please refer to diffs when discussing prior versions of the article in question. It helps to save DRN Volunteers' time when looking through your statements, instead of edit-history trawling. You can also use the {{diff}} template to create "in wiki" links (without the 'external' link icon in the corner). Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 08:34, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Not particularly about the dispute but reading the disputed sentence I think it worth noting that Described by the Los Angeles Times has a different meaning from described in the Los Angeles Times. The first refers to an editorial statement while the second merely states that the description has appeared in the newspaper. From all appearances, the second statement - described in the Los Angeles Times - is the more accurate one here. --regentspark (comment) 02:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
•  Note to participants: Please keep discussion to a minimum before the case is opened by a volunteer, which will happen as soon as all parties respond, or in a few days if they don't. Thank you for your understanding. JQTriple7 (talk) 07:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:List of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_education

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Cabdkc123 on 04:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Not I haven't discussed this issue on a talk page, but I read all the comments Location of dispute Talk:List of unaccredited institutions of higher education (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Cabdkc123 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Lot of back and forth about the articles content. The article seems to be outdated. The sources are outdated as some of the institutions now have accreditation. The title and Description of the article is not clear and is confusing. A lot of Biased one-sided statements. The article should be deleted re-edited for updated new sources and new information as there is a lot of inaccuracies. No original research hardly. Some institutions should be removed from the list based on new accreditation. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Not me personally, but I read the talk page How do you think we can help? By deleting the Article or re-editing the article with accurate information or allowing edits to add correct accurate information without any issues. Summary of dispute by Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:List of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_education discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:List of_military_occupations

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Sir Joseph on 06:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:List of military occupations (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Sir Joseph (talk · contribs) Serialjoepsycho (talk · contribs) Franp9am (talk · contribs) Zntrip (talk · contribs) Dispute overview For this instance, I assert that East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights should not be included in this list of Military Occupations. This is based on the lead of this article itself, which states that only military occupations, not annexations. EJ and GH are annexed, and if you go to the annexed article, it even includes EJ and GH. Regardless if the annexation is legal or not, the full lead of the List of Military Occupation excludes the criteria for including EJ and the GH. In addition, I, and other editors, have argued that Gaza Strip should not be included because there is no military occupation. If there is an occupation because of a blockade, then Egypt should also be listed because Egypt also has an effective blockade on Gaza. It can't be one or the other, for both disputes. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried talk page. RFC, etc. How do you think we can help? A third set of eyes would be helpful. Summary of dispute by Serialjoepsycho There is currently an active RFC and thus you can not accept this case.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Franp9am Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Zntrip Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:List of_military_occupations discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Volunteer note:  Declined There is already a Request for Comment active. This supersedes DRN. Thank you. JQTriple7 (talk) 07:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Battle of_Karameh#Jordanian_jets

– New discussion.

Filed by Makeandtoss on 18:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Battle of Karameh#Jordanian jets (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Makeandtoss (talk · contribs)
• Bad Dryer (talk · contribs)
• Poliocretes (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Out of the tens of thousands of soldiers engaged in the battle and out of the hundreds of sources on this battle, there is only one source claiming Israel shot down two Jordanian aircrafts, the same source whose author is an Israeli. The claim is followed by two inline citations on sources, of which neither support the claim! Not only has no one mentioned anything about bringing down two airplanes, but no one mentioned anything about any Jordanian participation in aerial combat. Not to mention the fact that one of the two sources following the claim, is a 1984 publication by the Israeli army that explicitly says that the Israeli aircrafts met no aerial opposition!!

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion, but Bad Dryer keeps bringing up invalid points and the discussion seems to be turning into an illogical loop.

How do you think we can help?

Prevent the addition of false and baseless information

Summary of dispute by Bad Dryer

The material is sourced to a an academic expert - a Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Davis, who is the former head of the Graduate School of Government and Policy and of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, as well as the former academic director of the M.A. Program at the Israeli Defense Forces' National Defense College. It was published by an impeccable academic publisher - the University of Michigan Press, which has performed peer review and fact checking on it. It is used in multiple places in the article in question for other facts that are not in dispute. One can't simply remove materials sourced to such a clear Reliable Source based only on the fact that it is the only source in which the claim is made.

Summary of dispute by Poliocretes

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Battle of_Karameh#Jordanian_jets discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.