Talk:Principality of Arbanon

Renaming to "Lord of Kruja"?

I think it would be better if we totally redesign this article into -lord of Kruja-, because all these alleged "princes" had in fact a much lesser degree of power than suggested in the article, the Principality of Arber is thus a fabrication. --Zoupan (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

If you would take the time to check for the sources, you would have been more useful to the article. Just this and this and this and this with a little google help. If you are interested in the article you can search further on. Aigest (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the article. There is still much to do.--Zoupan (talk) 21:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent the sources as the ones you added about Albanian nationalism had to do with the League of Lezhë and the wording was POV.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 02:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

That is not criteria for reverting my whole edit. I'm removing the League of Lezhe-refs, adding other sources directly handling the status.--Zoupan (talk) 10:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Zoupan you are misusing sources and you are vandalising the article. If you want to make major changes discuss them first in the talk page. Aigest (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I haven't deleted anything, which sources am i misusing? Where is the vandalism? Please review the article first, and point out your problems, because, honestly, I think you're falsely judging my edits. You reverted the article even though I took care of what Zjarri asked for.--Zoupan (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

@ZjarriRrethues: That was a very good observation about the Albanian nationalism and League of Lezhe. I do AGF but please be so kind provide a quote from the source Zoupan cited which refers to League of Lezhe.

@Zoupan: Thank you for cleaning this article. Both ZjarriRrethues and you are right. The text about Albanian nationalism should be included into the article about League of Lezhe without reverting the whole edit of yours.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

In case any of you haven't noticed, there is an article in wiki called Albanian nationalism. You can put any discussion about it there, otherwise you go to WP:FORK territory. This article is about the Principality. Historical material pertinent to the topic of article ie "Principality of Arbër" stay here. Ideological, social, essays and other works on nationalism go there, simple as that. Aigest (talk) 09:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Then we can safely say that Aigest has judged my edits without reviewing the article.--Zoupan (talk) 10:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

@Zoupan. I am afraid that this issue is a little more complicated. Both ZjarriRrethues and Aigest brougth very serious accusations against you.

• ZjarriRrethues accused you for extreme source misrepresentation.
• Aigest wrote many comments about you (explaining how you would have been more useful to the article, explaining that you should search further on if you are interested in the article). He emphasized that you are misusing sources and you are vandalising the article pointing to WP:FORK.

I think that such serious accusations against you should be addressed appropriately. I noticed that although you took care about possible (still to be confirmed by ZjarriRrethues) connection to League of Lezhe, Aigest insisted that you are misusing sources and you are vandalising the article. It think that only if Aigest (or any other user) fails to present valid arguments for his accusations within reasonable period of time (say a week) his most recent edit should be reverted. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:42, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Good points AntiD, I'm awaiting their comments, then the article should (will) be reverted. Their accusations are totally ungrounded, I know, but I'm interested if the blind reverts will stop - or is this another Vojsava-case?--Zoupan (talk) 11:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

There were many OR and POV deductions. That being said since Aigest focused on the parts about nationalism, the parts where you added that this was an autonomous principality under the Byzantine Empire make no sense either as the misinterpreted sources contradict this part of OR/POV too.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Abulafia: "Progon and his sons Dhimiter and Gjin, based at Kruja, retained a considerable degree of autonomy", Pipa: "during the second half of the Twelfth Century, had enabled Arbanon to attain a semi-autonomous status", Winnifrith: "From about 1190 to 1216 there was a semi- autonomous principality of Arbanon", Ellis: "Arbanon was autonomous, but loyal to the Byzantine Empire.", Elsie: "the first autonomous Albanian state under Prince Progon". Clear as water. I added that this was an autonomous principality as it in fact was, I will now remove the "autonomous" and "Byzantine" from the infobox as they are unneeded, but the Status-section will nevertheless stay and be expanded. No misinterpretations - No more chances of revert, I understand? --Zoupan 17:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)If you didn't half-quote the sources and knew that there was no Byzantine Empire after the fourth crusade in 1204, you'd realize that none of them refer to the Byzantine Empire but to relations with successor states like the despotate of Epirus.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I added the half-quotes to emphasize on autonomous, as it was, under many states, including the Byzantine Empire, obviously, and Epirus, Nicaea, Zeta and Serbia (Your comment was "the parts where you added that this was an autonomous principality under the Byzantine Empire make no sense either as the misinterpreted sources contradict this part of OR/POV too"). Just read the status section: "Before 1204, Arbanon was an autonomous principality of the Byzantine Empire.";"After 1204, the Albanians naturally followed the Despotate of Epirus, the successor of the Byzantine Empire." etc. --Zoupan 18:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Some questions

The string "Principality of Arbër" gives no real hit on Gbooks, thus it is not the most suitable name. "Principality of Arbanon" is used in an English Akademia e Shkencave e RPS të Shqipërisë work (1985), however, "Principata e Arbërit" is used in an Albanian work (1991). "Principality of Arberia" is used in a Frashëri translation (1964). What is the most used name in Albanian? Otherwise maybe "Arberia (1190-1255)"/"Arbanon (1190-1255)"? Is the File:Principality of Arbër (11th-12th century AD).png-map reliable? What year does the border correspond to? Is the File:Flag of the Principality of Arber.JPG-flag reliable? Is there really any source describing a "flag of Arberia" (1190-1255)? The "Arber-flag" reminds of the Pontic Greek Eagle.--Zoupan 09:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Good point for the flag. It was deleted at Commons and description on en.wiki says "probably a heraldic symbol, from the period of the Principality of Arbanon (ca. 1190)". Probably, from period of the Principality. It does not say "this was a flag of the Principality".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

File:Principality of Arbanon.svg claims to be the "emblem of Arbanon". Is there any English sources to back this up?--Zoupan 16:22, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

Alleged coat of arms.

I wonder what makes the specific coat of arms historically valid and especially what makes sites like pashtriku and albadreams reliable sources for use in wikipedia per correspodent description in commons.Alexikoua (talk) 18:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I found Jaho Brahaj. "Heraldry" (PDF). The heraldic emblem of the Arbër State was discovered in Gëziq (Mirditë) and dates from the 12th century. which, again, does not look the least reliable.--Zoupan 13:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

I am prepared to believe that a relief of this sort was found there, the problem is proving that this was used anything like a heraldic emblem of this particular principality. The eagle was a common motif in Byzantine art, but that does not mean that it had anything to do with heraldry in any western sense, especially since a) heraldry began to be developed in the West in the 12th-13th centuries, and b) Byzantine "heraldry", which one would expect a 12th-century Balkan principality to follow, usually used monograms or religious motifs rather than western-style images, and the notion of a "state heraldry" was completely alien. Unfortunately, it appears that this is simply an emblem picked up by modern nationalist-minded historiography and retroactively cast into the role of a "state emblem". Constantine ✍ 14:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Map

According to Robert Elsie (19 March 2010). Historical Dictionary of Albania. Scarecrow Press. pp. 54, 371. ISBN 978-0-8108-7380-3., Arbanon was centred at Kruja, and the Albanian coast had no noticeable Albanian communities throughout the Middle Ages. According to Steven G. Ellis; Lud'a Klusáková (2007). Imagining Frontiers, Contesting Identities. Edizioni Plus. p. 133. ISBN 978-88-8492-466-7., Arbanon was a small territory in the 11th and 12th centuries, stretching from rivers Devoll to Shkumbi. The map used in the article, claiming to show 11th and 12th c. history, shows Arbanon with a coastline stretching from south of Alessio to the north of Durazzo. This area would in fact have been part of Byzantine Dyrrhachium until at least 1204. --Zoupan 17:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)