Talk:Boro people

Distorted information about Bodo

@Chaipau: has presented distorted information about Bodo term as of recent us. This is completely propaganda. Boros were known as Mech and Kacharis to others. But they called themselves as Boro = Bara & Bara-fisa & Bhim-ni-fsa . ref - Hodgson on koch dhimal and bodo https://archive.org/details/essayfirstonkoc00hodggoog & THE KACHARIS BOOK PerfectingNEI (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Some History Books for Boro people

1 . Riyazu-s-salatin https://archive.org/details/riyazussalatinhi00saliuoft/page/n15

2. The Cooch Behar State and Its Land Revenue Settlements https://archive.org/details/coochbeharstatei00chaurich/page/224 & http://coochbehar.nic.in/Htmfiles/history_book.html

3. Census of Assam 1931 , Volume 3 https://dspace.gipe.ac.in/xmlui/handle/10973/37319 https://dspace.gipe.ac.in/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10973/37319/GIPE-CENSUS31009-Contents.pdf

4. Bishnu Rabha Rachanabali Volume 1 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.451480/page/n83

5. An Historical and Descriptive Account of the Kachari Tribes in the North Cachar Hills: With Specimens of Tales and Folk-lore https://digital.soas.ac.uk/AA00000195/00001/pdf

6. The Kacharis https://archive.org/details/kacharis009491mbp

7. Essay the First: Koch , Bodo , Dhimal tribes ; Hodgson 1847 https://archive.org/details/essayfirstonkoc00hodggoog/page/n150

8. Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, Volume 9, Part 2 , 1840 , Page 829 https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0TQzAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA829&lpg=PA829&dq=Ha-tsung-tsa

9. Kirata-Jana-krti ; S.K Chatterji 1951 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.32096/page/n117

10. Ahom-Englsih-Assamese dictionary by G.C Borua https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.463794 https://digital.soas.ac.uk/content/AA/00/00/06/16/00001/pdf.pdf

11. Journal of Assitic Society Bengal 1856 (Notes on North Cachar) https://archive.org/details/journalofasiatic2478asia/page/600

12. The early states

13. A Statistical Account of Assam V.1

14. A Statistical Account of Assam V.2

15. Extracts from the Narrative of an expedition into the Naga territory of Assam. By E.R. Grange ; JASB 8 Pt 1

16. http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~dwbruhn/STEDT/Damant_1880_notes-tribes.pdf 47.29.189.107 (talk) 15:37, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Cachar History of Bodo people

• Bhatt, S.C. (2005). Land and people of Indian states and union territories. India: Gyan Publishing House. ISBN 9788178353562.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

The Kacharis ; 1911 ( Ramsa & Ramsa-aroi & Ramsa mauza ) https://archive.org/details/kacharis009491mbp/page/n61

JASB V.9 Pt.2 ; 1840 ( Ha-tsung-tsa & Rangtsa / Ramsa ) https://archive.org/details/journalasiatics24benggoog/page/n223

Damant, G.H ; 1880 ( Hojai = Dimasa & Boro = Rangsa / Ramsa) http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~dwbruhn/STEDT/Damant_1880_notes-tribes.pdf

Soppitt ; 1885 ( Some explantion about Ramsa by Dimasa but I feel It's not correct ) https://digital.soas.ac.uk/AA00000195/00001/pdf

JASB V.8 Pt.1 ( Kosāree = Ramsa+Hojai ) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=3lBQAQAAMAAJ&q=ramsa#v=snippet&q=ramsa&f=false

JASB V.9 Pt.2 ; 1840 ( Uninhabitat Ramsa village ) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0TQzAQAAMAAJ&q=Ramsa#v=snippet&q=Ramsa&f=false

Notes on North Cachar 1855 https://archive.org/details/journalofasiatic24asia/page/600

J,P Wade - A History of Assam 1800 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125418/page/n119

IITG - Bodo https://web.archive.org/web/20190430200542/http://www.iitg.ac.in/rcilts/bodo.html

47.29.189.107 (talk) 15:32, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Bodo people#History

@IP user halt edit-warring, following edit summaries are not wp:civil neither edits are helpful in anyway:

• diff 16:21, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  18,353 bytes +968‎  →‎History: Narrow minded edits by Bhaskarbhagawati.
• diff 16:14, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  18,353 bytes +968‎  →‎History: Bhaskarbhagawati don't know how to use Wikipedia. Somebody please block this editor.
• diff 15:56, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  18,353 bytes +1,110‎  →‎History: History word always study past. Nobody can say everything about at once. Historical study infer new new things with latest discoveries. Bhaskarbhagawati is creating issues in issueless page . Jealousy isn't good for health.
• diff 15:28, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  14,959 bytes -2,419‎  It's just Wikipedia . Better to delete everything to make happy Bhaskarbhagawati Be happy Bhaskarbhagawati
• diff 12:53, October 4, 2019‎ 2409:4065:48a:fd02:6113:95a3:175b:879b talk‎  18,355 bytes -153‎  →‎History: Bhaskarbhagawati disruptive tags

Your messages on my talk:

• diff 16:34, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  4,804 bytes +3‎  →‎Bodo people: Challenge GU
• diff 16:34, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  4,801 bytes +617‎  →‎Bodo people: Fantasy boy Bhaskarbhagawati
• diff 16:19, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  3,586 bytes +330‎  →‎Bodo people: Narrow minded edits by Bhaskarbhagawati
• diff 15:31, October 4, 2019‎ 2402:3a80:de4:2f2b:45d9:8249:ee0d:25df talk‎  2,826 bytes +267‎  →‎Bodo people: Be happy Bhaskarbhagawati

Discuss your problem with other editors, if you can convince them, i have no issues.Thank you.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 12:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Removal of information by Chaipau

I believe Wikipedia is for giving information. But There is a constant effort to remove History and Culture related information of Boro community by @Chaipau:. Here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boro_people&diff=948625820&oldid=948625016 , Darrang Kachari basically means Boro. At the beginning of book itselt written that plain kacharis call themselves Boro. And Boros of Darrang called themselves Bhim ni fisa and that information is in wikipedia since very long time. But Chaipau is removing all the historical information related to Boro people from every Wikipedia page. DinaBasumatary (talk) 03:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Activities of @Chaipau: in wikipedia. Removed information from kachari kingdom page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimasa_Kingdom&diff=944373934&oldid=944369401 Removed information from Boro people page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boro_people&diff=948625820&oldid=948625016 Removed information from Boroland page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bodoland&diff=947038671&oldid=947038420 Removed reference related to Boro people https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boro_people&diff=936224164&oldid=936217146 DinaBasumatary (talk) 03:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Basically Chaipau target Boro community related page. DinaBasumatary (talk) 04:06, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Since Bodo Kachari is a separate article, we should be adding contents that explicitly pertain to the Boros here, leaving the contents for the parent group in the Bodo Kachari article. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:14, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Fylindfotberserk , Bodo-Kachari isn't a community, it's just umbrella linguistic term. That book itself is written from knowledge of Boro. Scholars don't use Bodo or Boro for other community. For example : They'll call Chutiyas belong to Bodo. But they don't replace Chutiya by Bodo or Boro. When they use Boro or Bodo means Boro only. Some communities neither have language nor they have historical evidence. So, Scholars give them Boro root, otherwise they'll become rootless. Different scholars had written for different tribe. C.A. Soppitt had written for Dimasa . P.R.T Gordon had written for Deori, Chutiya, Moran etc. Some other scholars had written for Garo. Some other scholar had written for Rabha etc DinaBasumatary (talk) 09:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

@DinaBasumatary: didn't know if you'd find Talk:Boro people/Archive 1#Untangling helpful. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 14:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

There is no specified administrative action requested here, so I am closing the help request template. Please see the dispute resolution options for possible routes forward. Yunshui ^雲_水 14:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

@DinaBasumatary: Your claim in not true. Bodo is used for the umbrella group (e.g. "The Garos, a Bodo people", Chatterji, KJK p41) as well as the specific Boro group ("the Bodo speeches- Bodo, Mech, Rabha, Garo, Kachari and Tipra and a few more" KJK p23 ---here Bodo is used in the same sentence to refer to two different groups), whereas Boro is never used for the umbrella group. Therefore, you cannot claim that the Bodo you find in some reference automatically means Boro. Chaipau (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Read Hodgson and Endle, They are pioneer scholar and Later scholars followed them. Scholars use Bodo = Bodo + Garo + Rabha + Chutiya + etc. But scholars had written that Garo belong to Bodo but scholars never replaced Garo word by Bodo. DinaBasumatary (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Garo were headhunter. Scholars called them Bodo(Bårå) but they don't want be Bodo(Bårå). Don't try to mixed up everything. That reference was taken from Endle's The Kacharis. Information about cognate tribes are given in appendix. DinaBasumatary (talk) 01:54, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Bodos belong to Tibeto-Barman linguistic group. So, Tibetan and Barman will not stop writing their History because of Bodo. DinaBasumatary (talk) 01:57, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Half educated Chaipau. Read KJK properly. Pronunciation of Bodo is Boro or Bårå. Bodo race is named after Bodo or Boro community. Today, Bodo race concept is destroyed by people like you who is basically enemy of Boro community. DinaBasumatary (talk) 02:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

BTW, Bhim ni fisa is added from Endle's book which was written for Boro people, not for Garo people. DinaBasumatary (talk) 02:18, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@DinaBasumatary: The Kachari of Darrang is given in the context of the Kachari/Dimasa kingdom. Here is the fuller quote from Endle:

There they seem to have come more and more under Hindu influence, until about 1790 the Raja of that period, Krishna Chandra, and his brother Govinda Chandra made a public profession of Brahminism. They were both placed for a time inside the body of a large copper image of a cow, and on emerging thence were declared by the Brahmins to be Hindus of the Kshatriya caste, Bhima of Mahabharat fame being assigned to them as a mythological ancestor. Hence to this day the Darrang Kacharis sometimes speak of themselves as "Bhim-ni-fsa," i.e. children of Bhim, though as a rule they seem to attach little or no value to this highly imaginative ancestry.

— Sidney Endle, The Kacharis (1911) pp. 6-7

Therefore, this has nothing to do with the Boro people, but to the Dimasa people. Krishna Chandra and Govinda Chandra were kings of the Dimasa kingdom. If these particular Kacharis were Boro's (he is referring to people in the 19th century, not now) then it means that the Boros adopted a legend for the Dimasas that was created in the Barak valley. But Endle does not say they were Boros. He simply calls them Kachari. In any case, neither he nor the Kacharis seem to give it any importance. I wonder why it is so important for you.

Please note that Wikipedia is not a place to educate you. Your WP:OR, which is often wrong, is wasting other people's time.

Chaipau (talk) 09:52, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: From your comment, It's clearly understandable, who need education. 20th century folklore Boro people is ofcourse a folklore of Boro people. You have changed Kachari Kingdom into Dimasa kingdom. You have removed Boro History from Kachari kingdom. You have removed information about Ramsa. Dimasa have their folklore. Boros have their folklore. You are no one to remove anything from Boro people page. I suggest you to read just introduction from The Kacharis book then you'll understand what is meant by Kacharis in Brahmaputra valley.

This is just a folklore. I'm not claiming anything more. Yasmin Saikia had written that Today's Ahom have no relation with original Ahom. Just because you belong to this category, don't consider Boros belong to same category. DinaBasumatary (talk) 11:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@DinaBasumatary: I take it that you have no answer to what Endle is saying. Clearly he is not saying what you are saying. Please use the proper references and your claim will be accepted. Right now, you are making outlandish claims not supported in the literature. Chaipau (talk) 12:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: Why would somebody give importance to mythology ? It's just mythology. For your kind information, Enlde was not a historian. He just collected the information and tried to give some conclusion. Secondly, There is nothing called Dimasa kingdom. It's just recent name. Boros were Ramsa , original aristocracy. Kacharis call themselves Bodo or Boro(Page=xv). People known to us (author endle endle) as Kacharis and to themselves as Bada or Bara (Page=4). Read it Mr. Jealous. DinaBasumatary (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: That's Boro folklore shared Dimasa folklore. Dimasa were hill Kacharis and Boros were Plain Kacharis. Boros were aristocracies. Boro aristocracies were known as Ramsa. Dimasa were just citizens of Kachari kingdom. Endle clearly mentioned that he was writing for Boro people. Ref Endle,1911, Kacharis call themselves Bodo or Boro(Page=xv). People known to us (author endle) as Kacharis and to themselves as Bada or Bara (Page=4) DinaBasumatary (talk) 17:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

There is mistake in Historiography. So, I'm not commenting anything related kingdom. Just that folklore should be added. What if there was some small kingdom with Bhim lineage in Darrang ? So, we don't know everything. Just keep the information. DinaBasumatary (talk) 17:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Bhim-ni-fsa is used with Krishnachandra and Govidachandra Narayan, who were kings of the Dimasa Kingdom. It would be WP:OR to mention them here. We can have them in Bodo Kachari artilce though. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Just like Ramayana was popular all over India. Why can't Bhim-ni-fisa be popular among different community ? There is no Dimasa kingdom. It's just Wikipedia article made Chaipau. Tired of boring discussion. DinaBasumatary (talk) 18:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@DinaBasumatary: You can add it here, but not using this source since the pages 6-7 specifically connects Bhim-ni-fsa with Krishnachandra and Govidachandra Narayan. That would be WP:OR. Now whether Dimasa Kingdom was real and/or passes notability in Wikipedia is another discussion, best done in that articles t/p. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Autochthon

Scholars have suggested different theories of migration. Scholars suggest Tibeto-Burman of Assam migrated atleast 3000 years ago. Some scholars also claimed Bodo-kachari migrated 4000 years ago. So, It's still not clear. But It's widely accepted that Bodo-kachari peoples are autochthon of Brahmputra valley. Is it wrong to add autochthon status for Bodo-kachari people ? Here, Chaipau had removed the autochthon word and added Pre-historic settlers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/954090362 Logical Man 2000 (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: is it wrong to add autochthon status for Boro people ? Logical Man 2000 (talk) 17:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it is not clear when they came in, but we know that the Boros were not the first and that they settled in and admixed with the already present. Linguists, geneticists and ethnographers—all agree on this. This does not satisfy the definition of autochthonous. We should not include this because it is not WP:NPOV. Chaipau (talk) 19:49, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Be careful, You are removing cited content. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No scholars have proved that Boros aren't autochthons. If you can bring any research paper then you can insert your claim. You are inserting something based on either hypothesis or WP:OR. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 04:31, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

As already accepted by van Driem (2007) on the basis of genetics: "The Y haplogroup 02a is represented at a frequency of 77% in Austroasiatic groups in India and 47% in Tibeto-Burman groups of northeastern India. This patterning could suggest that Tibeto-Burman paternal lineages may have partially replaced indigenous Austroasiatic lineages in the northeast of the Indian Subcontinent and that Austroasiatic populations preceded the Tibeto-Burmans in this area, as linguists and ethnographers have speculated for over a century and a half.". Therefore, it has been widely believed by linguists and ethnographers for more than a 100 years that the TB people followed the AA and admixed with them. This is precisely what autochthons don't do—follow other people and admix with them. This is what the Ahoms did as well in Assam. Wikipedia cannot say opposite things. It is possible some authors used the word autochthons, but that does not mean it is generally accepted. Chaipau (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You are comparing 1228 with 3000-4000 years old. I would prefer concensus from other editors than you. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 09:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Where did you get the cut-off year in the definition of autochthons? Chaipau (talk) 10:07, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Historians consider Kacharis are autochthons. Your comparison is based languages. In Assam, Mundas belong to Austroasiatic. As per your logic, Mundas are autochthons of Assam. Anyway, You can carry on your POV. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 10:38, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Which historians---given that this is a prehistoric issue? van Driem's quote above is the academic consensus as it has been for the last one hundred and fifty years. And the Mundas came to Assam after 1835. Not autochthons even though they are called adivasis. Chaipau (talk) 10:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Chaipau (talk) 10:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

K.L. Barua , Gait consider Kacharis are aborigines of Brahmaputra valley. Khasi-Jaintia might be autochthons of Meghalaya. But Boros are earliest setllers of Brahmaputra valley. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

K L Barua and Gait are not WP:RS according to Wikipedia policies. These are nearly 100 year old works. Boros, who speak a TB language, are not the earliest settlers in the Brahmaputra valley. DeLancey, Taher and others agree on this point. Chaipau (talk) 15:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Where is it written that Boros aren't aborigines ? Everybody migrated from some places. Modern human evolved from primtive human. According to your logic, Modern Human being should always refer to primtive human. What if khasi-jaintia migrated after Boro and just their language belong to Austroasiatic category ? Leave it, If you're so interested to call Boros migrants then write that Boros are Chinese immigrant who came atleast 3000 years ago. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 16:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Please look at the genetic data. AA reached Northeast approx 5000 years ago. TB is more recent, based on both Y-DNA as well as mtDNA. That is what van Driem precisely says in the quote above. Chaipau (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Please give the exact journal and page number. Let me verify. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 16:27, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

We can't compare with Austroasiatic of India, We should compare Khasi-Jaintia and Bodo-kachari because Austroasiatic from India can still come just like Mundas Logical Man 2000 (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Varaha → Boro

Varaha → Boro cannot be taken seriously. Varaha is an Indo-Aryan word, and the Boro probably did not accept it for self-designation. Moreover there are other theories regarding the use Madhav Kandali. I have re-emphasized the Bara-fisa origin of Boro. Chaipau (talk) 09:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC) Please keep it for time being. Don't remove cited content. You are doing everything without any concensus of other editors. I totally disagree with your edits. You removed Dalton , You removed Bardalai etc . Logical Man 2000 (talk) 09:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC) You are doing everything at your will. Very unhappy with your dominant behaviour. Please restore to previous version. I would suggest you to follow wikipedia rules and re-add this : According to some scholars, Varaha-Raja Mahamanikya was popularly known as Varaha or Barahi, with passage of time it began to pronounce as Bara or Boro. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

We had reached consensus on this. This is too controversial. I strongly suggest you should not use it. Furthermore, I do not see a Boro scholar like Mushahary support a self-designation of the Boros that might have come from Indo-Aryan. Your claim that Varaha came from Boro is your opinion, because there are other accepted etymologies of Varaha (Varaha#Etymology_and_other_names). Chaipau (talk) 11:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Different scholars give different opinion. We live in global platform. We shouldn't differentiate Boro vs non-Boro scholar. And etymology of Varaha can be anything but sanskritization is different thing. Boro community have Hindu, Christian , Bathou. So, There will be different opinion. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 11:41, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Logical Man 2000: I have looked at Kakati (1953). This article is actually written by Neog, not Kakati. Neog mentions Bardalai in his survey to figure out Kandali's date, not to figure out Mahamanikya's ethnicity. He gives examples of other claims which tried to identify Mahamanikya with the Jaintia's, the Dimasas and the Tripuri to date Kandali. In the end he sets a period, and is unable to date Kandali accurately. As far as the ethnicity of Mahamanikya is concerned, he leaves it hanging---Mahamanikya was a Varahi, Varaha being a tribe that belonged to the Bodo race. And as we know, Bodo is the genetic term for all TB tribes in Assam and beyond, not necessarily Boro.

So I think your claim looks even less NPOV now. Because I can very well claim Mahamanikya was a Jaintia, or a Dimasa, or a Tripuri with the same kind of justification as the one you are using.

Chaipau (talk) 12:28, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Kachari necessarily don't mean Dimasa. There were many kingdoms. Bardalai tried to connect with Boro. Kakati tried to connect with Barahi. Two different scholars. I'm only refering to bardalai's view , not neog , not Kakati. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 12:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Similarly Bodo does not mean Boro. Just as you used Bardalai from that text and claimed Boro, I could use Kakati and claim he was Jaintia. Wikipedia does not allow this. Sorry. Chaipau (talk) 12:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You are not even scholar. You're just editor. Jayantiapur is just name of place. I understand your intentions. Let other editor decide it. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 12:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Jaintia kingdom and Kachari kingdom of Jaintiapur are two different thing. If you don't know anything then I can't help you. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 12:57, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: You think you are All-knowing but you are just senior priviledged editor. You can't even understand what is written in text, Location and Time was unknown at that time but they agreed that Mahamanikya was Kachari king. But now it's well known because Lanka inscription is discovered and widely accepted by scholars that Mahamanikya was Kachari king. Two scholars view that Varaha have some connection with Boro. What is so big deal in it? In fact , That place was occupied by Boro. And your hard effort to make things controversial and remove information related Boro isn't a sign of unbiased editor. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 13:27, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Logical Man 2000: I have no extra privilege over anyone. I tried resolving it here by giving out my misgivings with your argument, but since you wanted to go down this path, I have asked for WP:3O. Chaipau (talk) 14:39, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: I want that information to be written because different scholars have different views. You don't want it to be written based on your contoversial ideas. Let other editor decide because i've not added any uncited content. It's most plausible connection because Mahamanikya is widely accepted as Kachari king and Boros are also Kachari. Two scholars tried to connect Varaha with Boro. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:3O will refer to this discussion here. It will occur on this page, when it happens. Chaipau (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Dual meaning of name is very common among Tibeto-Burman communities. For example - Dimasa have sanskritized form Hidimba-sa , Tipra have sanskritized form Tripura , Koch have sanskritized form Kuvaca . What is wrong if Boro originate from Varaha ? Being a editor , I'm really unhappy with you. Boro scholars try to connect with Boro origin because he/she know Boro language, Brahmin scholars try to connect with sanskrit origin because they know about sanskritization. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 16:47, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Hi! 3O here. I don't have a specific opinion on the dispute here, since I am not familiar with the sources. I will, instead, remind both parties here of a few important policies: verifiability, due weight, and fringe theories. Note that fringe theory, in this case, refers to things that are not accepted by the majority of scholars in a field. If the majority of scholars say that Varaha and Boro refer to the same people, then we say that. If only a few scholars say that Varaha and Boro refer to the same people, then we can say that but need to attribute that to the specific authors. We also make sure that we give due weight - if an opinion is only held by one dissenting scholar, we shouldn't include it (unless there's significant coverage by other sources about the dispute), whereas if there's a significant minority that hold the opinion, it might be worth including. Regardless, I encourage both parties to assume good faith and focus on what the sources say. creffett (talk) 23:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you sir. Scholars try to connect Varaha and Boro. Scholar said Varaha --> Boro . No scholars said that these two names can't represent same people. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 06:32, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Creffett: Thank you for your comments, we greatly appreciate your help in resolving this. Below this, we will continue the discussion below here, but I shall first give a summary and I hope you will follow the discussion from now and help us. Chaipau (talk) 09:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: It's not WP:Fringe. You've already made your mind to remove the content. You're a senior editor with more privilege. I can't keep on arguing with you. Do as you wish. I totally disagree with your actions. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 09:28, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Summary for WP:3O

@Creffett: I am providing a summary here for you to review. If you require additional information or clarification, we shall provide them below.

Primary question: Can we derive the name Boro, by which the Boro people call themselves, from Varaha an ethnic group from 13th century?

Logical Man 2000 is claiming that Boro is derived from Varaha because:

• Bardalai, who is the 1899 publisher of the 13th century work in which Varaha occurs, claims in the preface that the name Varaha came to be pronounced, over time, as Bara or Boro.
• Recent authors, such as Bhattacharjee ([1]) and Neog ([2]), have repeated this claim.

Chaipau's objection:

• The current widely accepted etymology of Boro is Bara-fisa, where Bara stands for man or male member of the Boro ethnic group in their own language. This is the claim made by Hogdson and accepted by Grierson ([3] please read the first 5 lines) and also modern scholars such as Mushahary([4]).
• Bhattacharjee and Neog do not endorse the claim by Bardalai, but simply state the claim by way of literature survey in their individual works.
• The standard etymology (Bara-fisa→Boro) is further supported by the facts that (1) Boro is a self-designation and (2) Bara-fisa is in the language spoken by the Boro people themselves; whereas Varaha is a Sanskrit (Indo-Aryan) word and construct.
• Since there exists a standard etymology, Bara-fisa→Boro, Varaha→Boro is WP:FRINGE without current support in scholarship and should be avoided.

Chaipau (talk) 11:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Different scholars have different views. Tipra have sanskritized version as Tripura, Dimasa has sanskritized version as Hidimba-sa , Koch has sanskritized version as Kuvaca, Mech has sanskritized version as Mleccha, Similarly Boro has sanskritized version as Varaha. I'm unable to understand the problem of adding more information. I can't keep on arguing with dominant editor like Chaipau. We can't decide who is perfect scholar. Chaipau , You're simply wasting time of everyone. I'm done with this because you're dominant editor and you'll not allow me to add more information. You're free to do whatever you wish because you're senior privileged editor. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

If your argument is Sanskritization (Boro→Varaha), then you cannot use Bardalai, nor can you use this in the etymology section. Sanskritization converts a native name into an Indo-Aryan name, i.e. Bhullambuthur→Brahmaputra ([5]). But Bardalai is claiming the opposite—that an Indo-Aryan name, Varaha, became the Tibeto-Burman Bara(Varaha→Boro, from your citation [6]).

Please assume good faith and let us focus on the issue to resolve this quickly.

Chaipau (talk) 12:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: I'm not claiming anything like you. I've no propaganda. I just want to add what is claimed by Bardalai and repeated by Padmashri awardee and PhD scholar. I just gave few examples. Your controversial ideas don't make any sense. Koch don't call themselves Kuvaca. But scholars agree that Kuvaca word is sanskritized version of Koch , Mech don't call themselves Mleccha but scholars agree Mleccha is sanskritized version of Mech. Please follow Wikipedia rules. Respect PhD scholar , Padmashree awardee and First publisher of Saptakanda Ramayana. Don't remove cited content. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Logical Man 2000: Keeping aside the etymology vs sanskritization issue aside for a while, you seem to be claiming now that Bardalai is associating the Varaha king with the Boro people. But this is not true. Bardalai associates the Varaha king not with the Boro, but with the Jaintia people; though he derives Boro from Varaha:

Madhavachandra Bardalai, who had the credit of bringing out the first printed edition of Kandali’s Ramayana, in his Preface surmised that Sri-maha-manikya must be one of the three Kachari kings of Jayantapura (Jaintias) with the surname of Manika, Vijaya-manika, Dhana-manika and Yasa-manika. The Kachari kings of Jayantapura were known as 'Varahirajas' styled themselves as 'Jayantapuresvaras' and ruled over a vast territory extending to the modern district of Nowgong from the twelfth to the fourteenth century A.D. Bardalai further seeks to connect the term Varaha in the text with Bodo or Boro, the name of the Tibeto-Burmans who settled and ruled in Assam.

— Maheshwar Neog, M, Neog (1953), "Assamese Literature Before Sankaradeva", in Kakati, Banikanta (ed.), Aspects of Early Assamese Literature, Gauhati: Gauhati University, p 24

Therefore, this is what I see of your arguments so far:

• Your claim that Bardalai is providing an etymology Varaha→Boro is WP:FRINGE.
• Your claim that Bardalai is providing the Sanskritization Boro→Varaha is false.
• Your claim that Bardalai is associating Varaha king with the Boro people is false, because Bardalai is associating the king with the Jaintia people as well as the Bodo-Kachari peoples.

I am keeping only the references to Bardalai. Neog also mentions Goswami, another author, who associated the Mahamanikya with the Dimasa king.

Chaipau (talk) 14:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Mleccha, Kuvaca can be anyone in world. But in kamarupa region. Mleccha = Mech , Kuvaca = Koch. Similarly , Varaha --> Boro in kamarupa according to Bardalai and repeated by Padmashri awardee and PhD scholar. Please don't consider yourself above Padma Shri Awardee. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 12:36, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: I'm not claiming anything. Please read the content properly. Jaintia kingdom (post 16th century) and Jaintiapur kingdom (Pre-15th century) are two different things. Dimasa name don't pop-up here, neither the scholars take name of Dimasa.You're presenting which aren't even in source. I'm leaving this matter upto you. You can do as you wish, please don't ping me anymore Logical Man 2000 (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Logical Man 2000: I have quoted from the text you are trying to use here. It does not support any of your claims. Chaipau (talk) 20:35, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chaipau: That jaintiapur kingdom is Boro-Borok kingdom. That's why Bardalai used kachari kingdom of Jaintiapur. You try to disclaim other scholarly claim based on WP:RSSELF. If you don't know everything then just follow the instructions. And Dimasa = Timisa given by Gait , Colonial administrator and repeated by others. Technically entire Dimasa history is based on colonial historiography. J.B. Bhattacharjee's journals also begin with wrong name of the kingdom. Shin had corrected many things but she also followed Gait's Timisa=Dimasa. And Timisa word come from Ahom buranjis, why should we use Ahom buranji to write Kachari history ? So, I've already left this topic upto you. So, No more discussion. Don't present your theories here because they are WP:RSSELF Logical Man 2000 (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@Creffett: I am unsure how to proceed. Logical Man 2000 (talk · contribs) leaves a bunch of unsubstantiated claims and does not engage with the material presented. I requested this WP:3O because the other editor asked for an independent opinion. He seems to not want to proceed further with resolving the issue. I thank you very much for guiding us—stating the relevant principles to follow here. Chaipau (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Since, User:Chaipau present his personal theories to disclaim other scholars and categorize the claim of Bardalai , Neog and Bhattacherjee as WP:FRINGE. I have no more logic to proceed because User:Chaipau is above all these scholars. I've never claimed Bardalai claimed Boro --> Varaha . Boro--> Varaha belong to WP:OR (my claim). I just gave Tipra (Tripura ) , Mech (Mleccha) , Koch (Kuvaca) , Boro (Varaha) examples to make things understandable. Bardalai never connected Jaintia people and Jaintiapur. This is also fabricated by Chaipau. I've no choice to proceed because i can't argue with senior editor Chaipau, who has discussed something about me with Admin https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chaipau&diff=955057997&oldid=954810893. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 21:28, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Logical Man 2000, there is no such thing as a "senior editor" - we're all equals here. Chaipau and Logical Man 2000, if you are unable to come to an agreement, I would suggest following one of our other dispute resolution processes to get more knowledgeable people than I to weigh in. If this is genuinely a fringe theory situation, you could raise the discussion on the Fringe Theory Noticeboard, otherwise you could request community input via a request for comments at the appropriate WikiProject (perhaps WikiProject India or WikiProject_Ethnic_groups) or get further help with the dispute at the dispute resolution noticeboard. creffett (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:Fringe according to Chaipau

It is widely accepted by Scholars that Mahamanikya was Kachari king. Boros are also known as Kachari. Mahamanikya was called Varaha Raja. Therefore, scholars tried to connect Varaha with Boro but Dominant senior editor Chaipau don't allow me to add this cited content :

According to Bardalai, Mahamanikya was popularly known as Varaha or Barahi, with passage of time it began to pronounce as Bara or Boro. For example - Dimasa have sanskritized form Hidimba-sa , Tipra have sanskritized form Tripura , Koch have sanskritized form Kuvaca.

References

• Neog, Maheswar (2013). Singha, Maneesh (ed.). Ramayana, Mahabharata and Bhagavata Writers. Public Resource. Publications Division, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Government of India. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Logical Man 2000 (talk) 13:41, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Bodo people --> Boro people

This move was requested by Chaipau on the basis of better phonetic . https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boro_people&diff=944496316&oldid=944345409 But he is claiming Bodo instead of Boro in Mech people. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mech_people&diff=955379667&oldid=953909077 Logical Man 2000 (talk) 16:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

This was based on Moshahary's assertion given here: Boro_people#cite_note-13

Mushahary's reference was added on 30th April 2020. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boro_people&diff=954154602&oldid=954153996 But page move happened much before. Logical Man 2000 (talk) 20:46, 7 May 2020 (UTC)