Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance: Difference between revisions
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{{short description|Historical document}} |
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{{Notice|There is a discussion to close Wikiquette assistance at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Closing Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance]].}} |
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{{historical}} |
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}}[[Category:Wikipedia dispute resolution]][[Category:Non-talk pages that are automatically signed]]{{noindex}} |
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'''Wikiquette assistance''' was an informal process, [[Special:PermanentLink/10842811|set up in March 2005]], available to editors who felt that they were being treated uncivilly. There was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=512742266#Closing_Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance discussion among the community] about its effectiveness, and a consensus was formed to eliminate the Wikiquette assistance process. This page was formally [[Special:PermanentLink/512745599|marked inactive in September 2012]]. |
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= Active discussions = |
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If you require assistance with resolving a content issue, please see [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]]. |
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== Talk:Broadsword_(disambiguation)#August_2012_cleanup == |
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For a similar noticeboard which was also discontinued and marked historical, see [[WP:PAIN]]. |
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* {{Userlinks|Trofobi}} <!-- editor 1--> |
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* {{Userlinks|ZarlanTheGreen}} <!-- editor 2--> |
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{| class="wikitable" style="float:left;vertical-align:top;" |
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| width="300" style="text-align:center;"| '''Search the [[Template:Wikiquette_assistance/Archive_navbox|Wikiquette archives]]''' |
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* {{la|Broadsword_(disambiguation)}} |
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* [[Talk:Broadsword_(disambiguation)#August_2012_cleanup]] |
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Recently Trofobi made an edit, which I reverted. He/she instantly reverted it back, which as far as I understand is against policy or at least bad form. I re-reverted it, which is probably rather bad, and He/she instantly reverted it back again, but at least started a discussion. Sadly said discussion has gone badly. I have repeatedly asked for an explanation of why the edit was made, and the motivation for the reverts, but Trofobi has repeatedly refused to answer. |
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Also, I have been baselessly accused of certain actions and motivations, but ''that'' is not really important and may be ignored for the purposes of this request. |
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As to diffs and the such... Well, the section of the talk page, listed above covers everything rather well and it's not that long.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 16:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:There is no policy against immediately reverting someone, especially when the revert includes an edit summary besides the default "undo" message, and especially when the first edit is against consensus. According to the page history, you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=509589488&oldid=509549093 made the first edit] which [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=next&oldid=509589488 Trofobi reverted, citing the Manual of Style in his edit summary]. You then [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=509722576&oldid=509688073 restored the edit calling the MOS "merely a guideline,"] which [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=509735895&oldid=509722621 Trofobi (rightfully) reverted]. Had I been there, I would have reverted you as well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABroadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=511551604&oldid=509768446 There has been significant discussion on the talk page], Trofobi was just restoring the article to the version that met both local consensus (as established on the talk page) and site-wide consensus (which is what guidelines represent). There has been no wikiquette violation, but you have a serious case of [[WP:IDHT]]. There's no action to take here, except to draw [[WP:Boomerang]] attention to a potential edit-warrior (that'd be you, Zarlan). [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 20:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::No, that is simply not true. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=prev&oldid=509549093 This] is the first edit. |
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::What you call the first edit, was my revert of that first edit, made by Trofobi. |
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::As to re-reverting a revert of ones edit, I cite from [[Wikipedia:BRD#What_BRD_is.2C_and_is_not|What BRD is and is not]]: "'''Note''':"BRD" is commonly used to refer to the principle that a ''revert'' should not be ''reverted again'' by the same editors until the changes have been discussed, as that could constitute [[WP:Edit war|edit warring]], which ''is'' a policy that all editors must follow.". Besides, even if it were not so, it's still very much bad form. Nevertheless, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is that Trofobi ''refuses to discuss the matter''. He makes responses, but doesn't answer any questions, makes baseless assertions, and won't explain what he does or why.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 22:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::: I see discussion on the article talkpage ... including Trofobi. We go by [[WP:CONSENSUS]] here ... try and obtain consensus for your changes <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:EatsShootsAndLeaves|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous</font>]][[User talk:EatsShootsAndLeaves|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda</font>]]</span> 23:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::How can there be discussion if one party is refusing to explain anything or answer any questions or anything? Which questions has Trofobi answered? What explanations for his edits has Trofobi made? Any explanation that the previous version didn't comply with MoS is entierly pointless, ''unless Trofobi will explain what part and how of the MoS it doesn't comply with'' (something I have repeatedly asked for, which Trofobi refuses to answer). Furthermore, Trofobi claimed that the previous version lacked some information, despite his edit actually removing information and not adding any (he did add a few links, sure, but my reverts didn't remove those. Well one did, but I immediately put them back. Either way, those added links are rather a separate issue, as far as I see it). |
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::::As to trying to get consensus... The previous version had been there for quite a while, thus making it consensus. Then Trofobi made a significant edit, going against consensus as the change hadn't been discussed in advance ([[Wikipedia:Be bold|which is hardly required]]). I reverted the edit back to the old consensus. Trofobi didn't agree with this. That means that there was a disagreement. If there is a disagreement, that should be discussed. Trofobi didn't do this, but rather re-reverted. Something that the WP:BRD article indicates is against policy. Even if it isn't, it's rather bad form and arrogant. It's kinda like the attitude of a kindergarten argument "yes it is! no it isn't! yes it is! no it isn't![...and so on]". You may think that you are right, but you can't just insist that your right and take your version of things and try to bulldoze it through. Thus I had no reservations to reverting it back again, though I should probably have handled it differently. Once discussion started, though, I at least tried to engage in it. Sadly it didn't turn into a dialogue. I takes two to tango. It's just monologues right now. |
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::::As I asked in the talk page: |
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::::* What new information did my reverts remove? Trofobi claims the old version was lacking information, I have asked what lacking info that may have been, but Trofobi refuses to answer. |
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::::* What misleading/outdated links were replaced, and in what way were they misleading/outdated? Again Trofobi has claimed he/she did that. I have asked what lacking info that may have been, but Trofobi refuses to answer. |
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::::* What part of MoS is relevant. Trofobi's main argument for the edit was the MoS. I have asked repeatedly about this, but Trofobi refuses to answer.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 13:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::* Except that it is not making an exceptional claim, the author may be wrong in dispute raising or not, but as far as content ONIH is wrong because it is not unduly self-seving or "an exceptional claim" as much literature would exist that would broadly agree with their self-denigration as being " democratic libertarian", and I don't see how stating what end of the political spectrum a party is is unduly self serving, for example it is the exact same as "the conservative party" caliming they "stand for conservative values" a self-published source is usable only when "making claims about themseleves" and it fufills neither the unduly self serving nor the exceptional claim clause as given above (exceptional claim is defined as one of a minority position that does not have significant reliable 3rd party back up, clearly this is not a minority position and would have reliable 3rd party agreement sources that would state similar). <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:TheSpaceBetween2|TheSpaceBetween2]] ([[User talk:TheSpaceBetween2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheSpaceBetween2|contribs]]) 18:07, 12 September 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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* [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Broadsword (disambiguation)]] |
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:As already posted in my first edit on the article's talk page, the article changes have been discussed on the DAB-Project and Zarlan's second revert was not just reverting my edit, but also the edits of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=509673611&oldid=509672436 George Ho] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Broadsword_%28disambiguation%29&diff=509688073&oldid=509673611 JHunterJ]. I only refuse to answer questions that I have already answered or that are clearly visible in the article history & talk. Especially when you, Zarlan, mess up also my talk page and post [[WP:PA|PA]] there - I even gave you the chance to fix that. --[[User:Trofobi|Trofobi]] ([[User talk:Trofobi|talk]]) 23:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::discussed on the DAB-Project? (I kinda missed that, but it hardly matters) No discussion on the articles talk page, or with any editors involved? (until the second revert, that is) I'm hardly impressed, nor do I see how it is, in any way relevant. |
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::As to the claim that my reverts also reverted George Ho's and JHunterJ's edits... In the case of George Ho... He was essentially making sure that the article started by mentioning the main thing called a broadsword, and follow that with a "'''Broadsword''' may also refer to"-bit. This was true of the previous version I reverted to, so my revert wasn't really removing what he added. It just slightly rephrased it, and added more information. As to JHunterJ's edit... He was essentially making style fixes to your version, which were hardly applicable to the old version (as it was different and any style fixes would have to be reapplied, rather than copied). JHunterJ's edit being reverted was simply an unavoidable consequence of reverting ''your'' edit. |
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::As to already having answered the questions... Could you show where you answered ''any'' of the questions I have mentioned here? And remember: Other people are not the same as you are. What you personally know or consider obvious, isn't true of others. --[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 23:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::<small>''(Subsequent contributions were [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATrofobi&diff=512271847&oldid=512022932 originially posted on my talk page], but upon my request now moved here with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATrofobi&diff=512281525&oldid=512278231 Zarlan's permission]. --[[User:Trofobi|Trofobi]] ([[User talk:Trofobi|talk]]) 00:58, 14 September 2012 (UTC))''</small> |
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:::You can deal with the headline-mess. You can delete the whole thing if you want. It's you talk page. The important thing is that I've notified you. |
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:::As to a personal attack... I don't see one. Could you please explain in what way I have done such a thing? (but then, given that you haven't answered any other question I have asked, I'm not expecting much) I remind you that you are required to [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]] (that being a fundamental principal of wikipedia, for good reasons that fully agree with). If there is a personal attack, then surely the Wikiquette Assistance will be able to identify and deal with it? Thus I see no problem there, and if you were to try and take things in your own hands would, no doubt, seem rather inappropriate ...and would probably make everyone more inclined to think that you are acting in a [[Wikipedia:Civility|uncivil]] manner. In other words: I wouldn't recommend doing so.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 23:07, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Oh yeah, now I see what might have made you say I made a personal attack! The mention of trolling. Well, you did talk about the MoS, while repeatedly refusing to answer. In a reply where I requested an explanation for the n:th time, I said that further refusal would mean I'd have to check if there is a way to report trolling. [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F "'''Trolling''' is any ''deliberate and intentional'' attempt to disrupt the usability of Wikipedia for its editors, administrators, developers, and other people who work to create content for and help run Wikipedia. Trolling is a violation of the implicit rules of Internet social spaces and is often done to inflame or invite conflict."] |
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:::Oh course one could argue that, given that trolling has to be "''deliberate and intentional''", I am failing to assume good faith ...but really. You were asked a basic and reasonable question. Repeatedly ...and repeatedly refused to give an answer. I didn't ''assume'' bad faith, I was simply given strong, repeated, indications of it ...but whether you really ''have'' been trolling, or otherwise uncivil, I'll leave to the Wikiquette Assistance. |
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:::Speaking of which, I would like to point out to you a few things from [[Wikipedia:Etiquette]] (directly copy-pasted) that are, or may be, relevant: |
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:::* Work towards agreement. |
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:::* Do not make misrepresentations. |
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:::* Do not ignore reasonable questions. |
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:::* If someone disagrees with your edit, provide good reasons why you think that it is appropriate. |
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:::* Recognize your own biases, and keep them in check. |
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:::* Avoid reverts whenever possible, and stay within the [[Wikipedia:three revert rule|three-revert rule]] except where exemptions apply. Explain reversions in the edit summary box. |
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:::* When reverting other people's edits, give a rationale for the revert (on the article's talk page, if necessary), and be prepared to enter into an extended discussion over the edits in question. Calmly explaining your thinking to others can often result in their agreeing with you; being dogmatic or uncommunicative evokes |
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:::* Amend, edit, [[Wikipedia:Talk page|discuss]]. |
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:::* Remind yourself that these are ''people'' with whom you are dealing. They have feelings. Try to treat others with dignity. The world is a big place, with different cultures and conventions. Do not use jargon that others might not understand. Use acronyms carefully and clarify if there is the possibility of any doubt.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 23:24, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::As all the ways I have up to now tried to find solutions that are also acceptable for you, Zarlan, remain not only fruitless; but instead you keep escalating, writing longer and longer and more demanding texts - therefore '''I kindly ask all other users who read this to post their opinions and to suggest possible solutions.''' (In my personal perception the way you, Zarlan, are excessively arguing and heating up any single point of the whole story, is clearly and highly disruptive behaviour.<small>[as Ian.thomson already stated above]</small>) --[[User:Trofobi|Trofobi]] ([[User talk:Trofobi|talk]]) 01:24, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I said "you have my permission to move them there, as long as you copy all of it". '''You didn't do so'''. You only moved ''one'' post, not all of it, and have thus '''not''' done the move with my permission. |
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::::::While it is true that the ways ''you have tried'' have failed, I would suggest answering questions and explaining your edits (which is what I have asked for, from the beginning). If you have already done so, as you claim: Show it! If I write long, it's partially because I like to clarify things and partially because I am somewhat lacking in my ability to be concise. As to "more demanding"... If the demand ''stays the same'', how can it increase? Anyway this Wikiquette assistance isn't really here to let the editors dispute in a separate area, is it? I'd rather wait to hear from someone else. There has hardly been any input on this at all, yet, but these things can take time.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 09:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== Tendentious editing by [[user:TheRedPenOfDoom |TheRedPenOfDoom ]] at [[List of unusual deaths]] == |
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* {{userlinks|TheRedPenOfDoom }} <!-- editor 1--> |
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* {{la|List of unusual deaths}} |
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A list article, for which TheRedPenOfDoom has repeatedly blanked successive entries. This is claimed to be about sourcing, or maybe definition of the list, or else [[WP:MOS]] issues, but that precise issue seems to be somewhat fluid. Multiple reversions by a number of separate editors. |
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Raised at [[Talk:List_of_unusual_deaths#Fail_WP:IINFO_and_Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style.2FLists]], although not a fruitful discussion. |
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This is nowhere near a useful discussion about the improvment of an article, it's just one editor alone bitching pointlessly about anything they can hang the most tenuous link to any random policy. Such notable deaths as [[St Lawrence]], [[Jan Palach]] and the crew of [[Soyuz 11]] have been blanked - these people have ''city squares'' named after them. As a policy issue, then it's generally accepted that referencing for list entries can depend substantially upon sources within a substantive linked article on each list entry. This behaviour is pretty much the antithesis of collaborative editing, it's just disruptive petulance. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 00:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:No one has presented any rationale or discussions that prevent basic Wikipedia policies such as [[WP:V]] from applying or being applied to this article. As far as user actions that deserve to be discussed at Wikiquette one may wish to consider [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AList_of_unusual_deaths&diff=511288064&oldid=511287013 this edit] which was followed by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_politicians_who_switched_parties&diff=511293305&oldid=382627769 an AfD nomination which appears to have been instigated by trolling through my contributions to find a tit for tat.] -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 01:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:: So you think that ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_politicians_who_switched_parties&diff=511293305&oldid=382627769 this]'' is an acceptable article, meeting our standards or notability and verifiability, but you still wish to delete [[List of unusual deaths]]? Obviously I found this by looking at your edit history, but there's hardly any need to invoke "tit for tat" to see reason to delete it! [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 01:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::No i dont. thats why [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FList_of_politicians_who_switched_parties&diff=511307382&oldid=511305700 i !voted to redirect] -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 01:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Actually, Andy, retaliatory AfD's are childish and in incredibly poor taste, and greatly diminish your credibility. Frankly, I consider what you did a much greater breach of Wikiquette than anything TRPOD did. It sure does look like "tit for tat" to me, even though I would have voted to redirect if the AfD had not been retaliatory. [[User:Dominus Vobisdu|Dominus Vobisdu]] ([[User talk:Dominus Vobisdu|talk]]) 01:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::I agree with Dominus. AfD retaliation makes me shake my head in dismay. [[User:Jusdafax|<font color="green">Jus</font>]][[User talk:Jusdafax|<font color="C1118C">da</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Jusdafax|<font color="#0000FF">fax</font>]] 01:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::: "Retaliation" would have been to AfD one of his other two created articles for deletion, ''only'' because it was his. As you rightly say, that's not on. However having seen the state of an article that was no more than an unreferenced "See also" section, I certainly wasn't going to leave it lying around. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 09:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::(ec)I too have been rather dismayed at TheRedPenOfDoom's modus operandi of "delete first, discuss later" (if discuss at all). Collaboraive editing would suggest a search for a source if none is given, or at least additon of a {cn} tag. I'm sure that it may be difficult to get this article to fit in with the standard pattern of articles, but that does not mean it's worthless. TheRedPenOfDoom suggested, quite rightly, that the criteria for inclusion, at the top of the article, were not clear. But instead of engaging in a detailed debate about how to improve these, at the Talk Page, he began a series of unilateral deletions, for a variety of supposed reasons. Thi8s seems a bit back-to-front. This is not an artcle that has just sprung up over-night. As for AndyDingley's proposed AfD - I don't see how this can be considered "tit-for-tat" when this article has not even been nominated by TheRedPenOfDoom as an AfD. I had thought that Andy may have been trying to point out that other articles may be "borderline" cases, and that to defend one over another might be seen as hypocritical. (But he's now just clarified his actions above and any editor is free to AfD at any tme, surely? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 09:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:: [[Jan Palach]] ''already'' meets [[WP:N]] and [[WP:V]]. Long established practice for list articles is that if the individual entry is linked to a substantive article on that topic specifically, and there is good sourcing within that article, then that's adequate sourcing for the list too. Are you going to AfD [[Jan Palach]] and [[Soyuz 11]] as non-notable or not? [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 09:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::On several occasions sources have been requested to be copied here, from the substantive article, to avoid an entry being removed as "unsourced". I think the policy should be made clearer. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::: There is no reason not to copy sources from Jan Palach to the list, should an editor consider it worthwhile. It's not necessary, but it's certainly not discouraged. |
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::: There is no reason why [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] couldn't have done just this. |
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::: [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 12:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::[[WP:CIRCULAR|Whatever sourcing might exist in other Wikipedia articles]] it is [[WP:BURDEN|up to the person adding or restoring content to an article to supply the sources for that particular article]] and [[WP:NOTCOMPULSORY|not my job to do it for you]]. And dispite your claims to the contrary [[Wikipedia:LIST#Listed_items|Items in lists are required to be sourced, just as any other content is.]]-- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 14:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::: You have completely failed to understand [[WP:CIRCULAR]] |
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::::: Your approach here appears to be, "When encountering unsourced content, it is better to repeatedly blank that content against the opposition of multiple editors than it is to copy the linked sources that are already available to you". This is not an approach that should garner much support. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 14:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::: = [[WP:NOTCOMPULSORY|it's my job to do the easiest thing]], which may infuriate a few other editors but, hey, who cares? Surely, no-one wants to be a [[Jobsworth]]? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::If I understand what is being proposed here: I am somehow responsible for the fact that people are infuriated that they are being asked to do the work to keep their pet article up to the basic standards required by Wikipedia for all content. Is that accurate? -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 15:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::You don't seem to be "asking" other editors snything, but are just deleting material because you think this whole article should not actually exist. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::If I understand what is being proposed here, rephrased: I am somehow responsible for the fact that people are infuriated that they will have to do the work to keep their pet article up to the basic standards required by Wikipedia for all content.-- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 16:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::It's not a proposal, it's an observation. But yes, I think they'd prefer to be asked, rather than see a string of edit summaries saying simply "unsourced". Especially when there are question marks, raised by you yourself, about what the criteria for inclusion should be, and how these should be explained at the top of the article. But it's not "my pet article", it's just another one that I think should be improved rather tha deleted. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AList_of_unusual_deaths&diff=511711493&oldid=511710481 Done.] The editors have now been formally asked to provide appropriate sourcing. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 16:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::: If I'm offended by a lack of sourcing, then I'll add sources. I might even remove the item, but I'm yet to see one which warrants this. |
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::::::::::::: As I don't have a problem with [[Jan Palach]] demonstrating WP:NOTABILITY (that utterly trivial Wikipedia-only shibboleth that the real world laughs at) via its own extensive article, then I'm unlikely to feel any need to add to it here. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 17:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::It is perfectly fine for you not to add sources, I cannot and will not attempt to force you to do so. H However, you should not [[WP:BURDEN|return content to articles without providing sources]], and if you do not provide sources, and no one else does either, you will need to then abide by the fact that the content may (probably will) be removed. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 18:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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And in the spirit of creating a collaborative editing effort, I would ask that editors refrain from comments such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AList_of_unusual_deaths&diff=511288064&oldid=511287013 this one] and focus on how/whether the content of the article can be brought into agreement with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 16:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Yes, that was a bit sexist, wasn't it. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Another editor has now taken over and is removing all entries which are not described as "unusual" by the supporting source. There has a very small amount of discussion on the Talk Page that this might be used as a criterion for adding, but no clear consensus has been reached. I don't think it's really acceptable for one editor to decide a new criterion for acceptability and to then apply it unilaterally, when that criterion has not been agreed and is not clearly given at the top of the article. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 18:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::And even though reverted by a different editor, removed some of tbe items again with the same rationale. No engagement on Talk Page and now approaching 3RR for some. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:44, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::because of course, this article is exempt from [[WP:V]] and [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:LIST]]. -- [[User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom|<span style="color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">The Red Pen of Doom</span>]] 13:59, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Phew, what a relief. I almost thought for a minute there was some kind of edit war going on. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Strictly speaking on the issue of whether or not individual entries need sourcing or can the sourcing be inferred from the linked article - ''heck yes'' sourcing is needed in the list article. You have a list topic that includes a peacock term ("unusual") making inclusion in the list immediately contentious - what makes a death "unusual"?. That requires a nearby inline source, period - specifically, what makes the death "unusual" as determined from independent third-party sources. RPoD is in his right, per BURDEN, to remove entries that are unsourced on that list page (even if they are sourced on the linked page), though obviously one gets more flies with honey and if he were to try to move in a few sources that would be better, but that is absolutely not required. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 14:09, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:"Unusual" a peacock term, eh? I wonder if any other articles ever use that outrageous word. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps no death is any more or less unusual than any other. They are all inevitable, at some time. And perhaps no unusual births either. Only unsual lives (but sometimes especially near their end... ) [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Well, in the sense that what makes a death unusual? The manner? The person? Other circumstances? EG, I would consider any confirmed death reported at the [[Darwin Awards]] as unusual, but that's likely not the intent of the list. |
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::As counter-examples, I offer two lists I work on: [[List of Internet phenomena]] and [[List of commercial failures in video gaming]]. The former list is potentially extremely broad and subjective, and thus to assure we are discriminate, we require inline sourcing from reliable works to assert that something is a phenomena. In the latter, calling something a failure without merit is definitely OR and possibly slander, and thus we assure all entries are described as commercial failures from reliable sources. Same with unusal deaths here: you have both a list that could be infinitely broad and indiscriminate based on how one interprets "unusual", as well as potential for editors to try to shoe-horn in deaths they think are unusual. (For example, I would consider [[Dermot Morgan]]'s death 24hr after filming the last episode of a series he was wellknown for to be "unusual" in my head, but I would expect before I add it to find sources that assert that fact). --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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I would amplify Masem's comments: any editor that reverts one of RPoD's deletions is clearly violating policy unless they provide an inline citation, in the list, that supports the categorization of the death as "unusual", as [[WP:V]] requires that "''any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source '''using an inline citation'''''". I will enforce that policy by means of blocking without hesitation.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 14:15, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:"So long, article.. ", let's all wave bye-bye, then. It's been nice knowing you. We don't even need to bother to go to RfD. We'll be left with maybe one or two entries and we can then just delete as an unwanted and useless stub. Yay! But at least nobody gets blocked ('''without hesitation'''), eh? [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 14:36, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::If RPoD was removing all the entries because of being unsourced, that might be an issue, but he's clearly being selective. Many are already sourced (though I will caution: sources that just note the death and not the unusual nature of it are not appropriate in this case.) so it's not the list is going to go away; it needs either pruning of entries that are on there as original research, or sourcing to avoid that. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 15:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Rest assured, following the advice kindly given by [[User:Kww]], there will be nothing left worth keeping. Or is it all down to RPoD's selective discretion? That would be ironic. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:25, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Perhaps you misunderstood. You are free to revert removal of unsourced material by restoring it '''and''' providing a source that substantiates its inclusion in the list. You aren't free to create a list of unsubstantiated items. Why would you think a list of unsubstantiated items was worth having in the encyclopedia?—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 15:51, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::One of the discussions at that Talk Page, which I'm sure you will have read carefully, was concerned with exactly what "substantiated" means in that context - essentially the difference, if there is any, between "reliably sourced" and "substantiated as unusual". But your swift ruling has apparently swept aside the need for any such niceties. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Don't blame me, blame the rules against original research. If people were nitpicking about sources that used words like "strange" or "extraordinary" because they weren't literally the word "unusual", that would be one thing. To say that the source has to substantiate the inclusion in the list isn't some surprising innovation that should have caught you or any other editor by surprise.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 16:46, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::From my perspective, "nitpicking" is exactly what's happening. Have you read the endless thread about Moliere, where "strange saga" is one of the descriptors that's being challenged as inadequate? Are you ruling, as an administrator, as to which side is right? --[[User:Arxiloxos|Arxiloxos]] ([[User talk:Arxiloxos|talk]]) 16:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::I don't think we care about careful discussion on edge case (which is being done) on the page, just that the attitude I'm reading from those that are in dispute with RPoD are actually the ones that need to find a way to bring themselves to meet policy in general for that article, and not the other way around. Certainly WP can support a page of "list of unusual deaths", it's the issue of citation policy for this consensus fact, and individual item evaluation. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== correct way to proceed. == |
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Please see: |
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#: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_wine&action=history] |
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#: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A78.26&diff=512086337&oldid=511764165] |
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#: [[User talk:190.212.229.61]] |
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I've a feeling I could have done a much better job, and may have violated 3RR myself while trying to undo vandalism. I would appreciate guidance as to what "best practices" may be in this situation. Thanks! [[User:78.26|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:red; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h"><font color="008B8B"><b>78.26</b></font></span>]] ([[User talk:78.26|talk]]) 23:37, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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: Yes, it could have been done much better. First, [[WP:IGNORANCE|assume complete ignorance of Wikipedia's rules]] and give them an appropriate Welcome template to start. In this case, some type of reference to [[WP:EL#NO]] and [[WP:OR|original research]] might have been beneficial. You did, indeed, break 3RR ... and as it does not appear to validly meet the definition of [[WP:VAND|vandalism]], you may also have been blocked for the [[WP:EW|edit-war]]. Calling a cause that is obviously important to someone "vandalism" is more likely to escalate the situation, rather than defuse it. [[WP:RFPP|Requesting page protection]] much earlier would have been beneficial <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:EatsShootsAndLeaves|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous</font>]][[User talk:EatsShootsAndLeaves|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda</font>]]</span> 10:30, 14 September 2012 (UTC) |
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== Unfriendly Behaviour by [[User:Beyond My Ken]] == |
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<!-- Do not change this line. Your report should go below this line. --> |
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* Dynamic IP, including [[Special:Contributions/91.10.58.7|91.10.58.7]], [[Special:Contributions/79.223.23.68|79.223.23.68]] and [[Special:Contributions/91.10.37.58|91.10.37.58]] |
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* {{userlinks|Beyond My Ken}} |
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* {{la|Trouble in Paradise (film)}} |
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* {{la|Principal photography}} |
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* {{la|Bangers and mash}} |
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* {{la|Lake Michigan–Huron}} |
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The content in dispute is tiny, but [[User:Beyond My Ken]] shows some unfriendly behaviour, and raises some unsubstantiated accusations. No communication is possible, since BMK instantly undoes all my messages on his talk page. |
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It started when I changed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trouble_in_Paradise_(film)&diff=prev&oldid=511942843 some formatting] in [[Trouble in Paradise (film)]], including the removal of a spacer comment. These comments are conflicting with [[WP:MOS]], so I routinely remove them. BMK [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trouble_in_Paradise_(film)&diff=511943262&oldid=511942843 reverted] this part of the change, and after a little back and forth, the comment is now gone. BMK then followed me to [[Principal photography]], where a similar thing happened, though this time he [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principal_photography&diff=511953766&oldid=511945321 added] the spacer comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principal_photography&diff=512304260&oldid=512055807 twice]. |
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During all this, we had a little chat on his talk (removed by him since then), where he started to question me about my motives and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beyond_My_Ken&diff=prev&oldid=511952279 alleged] some unnamed malfeasance on my part. When I ignored his questions he concluded that I must be a sock of a registered user and announced that he was going to watch my edits. |
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Meanwhile, he [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bangers_and_mash&diff=512487939&oldid=511637353 was] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bangers_and_mash&diff=512490203&oldid=512489945 adding] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lake_Michigan–Huron&diff=512501673&oldid=512498506 some] |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Foley_(infielder)&diff=prev&oldid=512530237 more] |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Foley&diff=prev&oldid=512530763 spacer] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dr._Watson&diff=prev&oldid=512532868 comments], while undoing [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beyond_My_Ken&diff=512427155&oldid=512362666 my] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beyond_My_Ken&diff=512491941&oldid=512456875 requests] to avoid edits that conflict with [[WP:MOS]]. |
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Finally, I asked for a [[WP:Third opinion]], which was amazingly denied because BMK used the WP:3O page for a discussion. That leads me here. |
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Is the spacer comment important? Not terribly, '''this is not about the importance of the spacer comment''' though, but rather about BMK's behaviour. --[[Special:Contributions/91.10.37.58|91.10.37.58]] ([[User talk:91.10.37.58|talk]]) 01:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Since the spacer is useful to the visual look of the page, and you admit that the edits are not important, I feel sure that you will stop following me around to revert them. Other than that, I have no inclination to have a substantial discussion with a registered editor (which you clearly are) who refuses to identify him- or herself, and masks their identity using dynamic IPs. (The one's you've listed are not the only one you've used, as anyone can see by looking at your first edit with the first one. These are merely the IPs you '''''have''''' to admit to in order to file this vacuous WQA.) Other than that, I have nothing to say, and will not particpate here unless specifically asked to do so by an editor in good standing. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 01:35, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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: I would discuss the validity of the spacer comments with you, but this is not the proper place. |
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: You have no reason to assume that I am a registered editor, so stop making false claims about me. (For the record: I once had a UserID, but have not used it in the last couple of years, and I have no intention of ever using it again.) |
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: I never claimed that these are the only ones I used. I get a new one every day or so. The ones listed are the ones with relevant edits. --[[Special:Contributions/91.10.37.58|91.10.37.58]] ([[User talk:91.10.37.58|talk]]) 02:03, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:@91.10.37.58, it is customary when accusing another editor of uncvil (what you call "unfriendly") behavior to include diffs as evidence. I don't see any. You say the content dispute isn't what's important, but then you spend the entire time discussing it.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 01:41, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:: I thought my diffs are clear. Does complete non-communication constitute civil behaviour? Do false accusations? |
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:: I am not discussing the content issue here. I provide links to BMK's edits to provide evidence that he cares for neither WP:MOS nor his fellow editors. --[[Special:Contributions/91.10.37.58|91.10.37.58]] ([[User talk:91.10.37.58|talk]]) 02:03, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 05:37, 29 November 2020
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Wikiquette assistance was an informal process, set up in March 2005, available to editors who felt that they were being treated uncivilly. There was discussion among the community about its effectiveness, and a consensus was formed to eliminate the Wikiquette assistance process. This page was formally marked inactive in September 2012.
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