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September 1

One of my favorite goals

What are some ways to be less angry and more level-headed? It's a goal I've always wanted to work towards. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 03:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

There was a recent study that found acting out your anger does not reduce it, whereas being deliberately calm and peaceful does. I know, astonishing, right? It's a clickbait kind of title (which angers me): Venting doesn't reduce anger but something else does. The "something else" includes the typical collection of hippie stuff like yoga, as well as simply "taking a timeout". Not recommended are complaining, rage rooms and boxing.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

"Serenity now! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, taking off the ref-desk librarian hat to give a personal opinion for a moment, I think if you see the anger itself as the problem you want to resolve, you're pretty likely to get stuck. Then you get to feel bad about not making progress, and maybe that makes you more upset, etc etc self-reinforcing cycle. You're more likely to get somewhere if you can identify why you're angry in the first place. Then you can try to avoid being angry at all (rather than just trying to be less angry when you become angry). You might also discover that you're trying to deal with anger on a much higher difficulty rating than most people - for example, a lot of physical/mental health conditions can cause you to become angrier, or angry more often. I'm rarely angry (lucky me), and one of the more recent times I can recall being so, it was because I had run out of a daily medication that I couldn't get refilled in time - I found the anger a real surprise! You might be living that way every day and not have noticed because you've "always been that way". Bodies are messy and minds are part of them. -- asilvering (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see from your userpage that you're in high school. In this case you're probably stuck with "the typical collection of hippie stuff" for now. Teenage emotions are just really... loud. Eventually, you get older. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

If you find anger or anxiety or anything else is a significant impairment on life, you should consider asking a professional for resources and mitigation strategies.

That said, one great use of ChatGPT I've seen was someone using it to check and clean their outgoing emails and social media posts for passive-aggressive (and aggressive-aggressive) anger. As noted earlier, anger is self-reinforcing, so being able to check it when it starts, and being shown in near-real-time how to communicate in a de-escalating manner, is a huge modern boon. (You might also ask ChatGPT for advice on mitigation strategies when you're feeling angry in the moment, which may be somewhat more reliable and friendlier than a search engine, but as a LLM its best way to shine is on tasks involving language.) SamuelRiv (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I would examine the causes of your anger. What - or who - makes you angry? Don't get mad, get even. Some people have entirely opposite ideas, and there is essesntially nothing you can do about it. Walk away. Or you may be in an emotional double bind, which is exceptionally difficult to identify and solve. Consider the STOPP technique [1][2]. Sometimes this isn't possible: my dad, now aged 94, has always been utterly impossible to deal with (might as well talk to a brick), and I recently exploded at his narrow-minded intransigence, telling him to **** off and die, you old ****. I feel happier now, but he's probably not going to leave me anything in his will. MinorProphet (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Instead of taking the bait and getting angry, how might it have gone if you laughed at him? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I would have received that familiar, stony, uncomprehending, hate-filled glare which Trump has perfected. Some people are incapable of laughing at themselves. MinorProphet (talk) 00:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

And then you could laugh at him some more. Instead of getting angry, you could tell him he's full of malarkey. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I tried that a few years ago (telling him he was full of malarkey) and threatened him with a double-bladed lock-knife, to which he took exception, being a lawyer and a pathetic coward: and now I have a criminal record. Hint: don't try this at home, folks. MinorProphet (talk) 02:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

We have crossed over into the TMI zone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yah, but you're greedy for that. MinorProphet (talk) 06:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

<tumbleweed>

More TMI. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I think "TMI" is an abbreviation for "too much information". 80.44.89.207 (talk) 17:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

And the boy wins a cigar! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

How and when did the word "Taiwan" become the common name in English of Republic of China?

I speak Chinese and in Chinese the word "Taiwan (Chinese: 台灣)" more commonly refers to the island (as you can see in Chinese wikipedia 台灣 is the island), the location or Taiwan Area (a term both available in PRC and ROC, which means a region with its own law, and a way to avoid conflict with no emphasis on belonging), which are neutral words and do not emphasize unification or independence. Taiwan is Taiwan and ROC is ROC, which are their original meanings. But in English the word "Taiwan" is regarded as the common name of Republic of China and it seems to be described as a common sense for I can't find reliable sources talking about it.

How and when did the word "Taiwan" become the common name in English of Republic of China? Does this give people the feeling that Taiwan is already independent as Taiwan equals to Republic of China and there is no need to announce independence? By doing so, are people who claim "Taiwan" is the common name in English of Republic of China supporting Taiwan independence?

The use of "independence" for Taiwan can be ambiguous. If some supporters articulate that they agree to the independence of Taiwan, they may either be referring to the notion of formally creating an independent Taiwanese state (Republic of Taiwan) or to the notion that Taiwan has become synonymous with the current Republic of China and is already independent (as reflected in the concept of One Country on Each Side).

— Taiwan independence movement, a Wikipedia entry

By the way, as I am too interested and bold in Taiwan topic, I am not allowed to edit the topic right now. If you think there is something needed to edit, just do it. ZeehanLin (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm old enough to remember when it was called Formosa almost as much as Taiwan. (Perhaps more when referring to historical events, the age of Spanish and Portuguese exploration, lives of the early Christian missionaries etc. But I'm old enough to have been taught those things.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Formosa refers to the island mostly. ZeehanLin (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

For everyday habitual use, English-speakers need a country to have a short one- or two-word name without an internal preposition. "United States of America" is too long (and has a preposition); "United States" by itself is OK, but many people prefer "America". "German Democratic Republic" and "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" were never useful for this purpose (which is why "East Germany" and "North Korea" are preferred), and "Republic of China" isn't either. If abbreviating "Republic of China" as "China" is blocked, then what's left is "Taiwan", which in that sense is quite natural as an English short form. It may be awkward in some respects, but is still much better than "Chinese Taipei" used by the Olympics! AnonMoos (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

North Korea and South Korea, West Germany and East Germany were established at a similar time. But the relationship between Taiwan and China seems to be more complicated. It doesn't seem quite appropriate to compare them. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

It's actually harmless to say this in spoken language, but it seems that everyone uses Taiwan as a formal common name, which can easily conflict with the island. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a formal common name. If you are using common names, you aren't being formal. There are formal short names, which often match the common names, but the two things are different.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, how could it "conflict" with the island? If you have list of "Germany, Peru, Kenya, Taiwan", anyone who seriously believed that "Taiwan" in that instance referred to the island would have severe cognitive deficits. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

ZeehanLin means that this usage conflates the island and the country, as if the island were the country, and not merely part of it. It's roughly analogous to calling the UK "Great Britain", although that doesn't have the severe political baggage; I suppose a better analogue would be if (1) some revolution overthrew the Australian government, and Albanese set up a government-in-exile in Tasmania, (2) both the revolutionaries and the existing Albanese government kept using the name and styles of the Commonwealth, and (3) people started using "Tasmania" to mean both the island and the jurisdiction that only had power there. Also, using the name can cause confusion in other ways; see the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names for example. And it can require disambiguation on physical geography articles, e.g. the subject of the Taiwan article has a land area of 36,197 km², but List of islands by area, going with the island rather than the jurisdiction, gives an area of just 34,507 km². If you weren't aware of the difference, this might be confusing; even the list of islands has to throw in (main island) below the Taiwan link, lest readers be confused. Nyttend (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how this is more "problematic" than it is for other island countries that control small islands as well as the namesake large island (such as Cuba and Sri Lanka). I'm also not seeing why your Albanese government example would be a problem. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

When I was in grade school, we called the island "Formosa" and the country "Nationalist China". Those seem to have gone by the wayside. Work colleagues of mine who were from that country tend to call it "Taiwan". As to stuff like "Democratic Republic" of communist countries, those terms are seldom used except in a formal or official sense, because they are seen as propaganda put forth by totalitarian dictators. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking in Newspapers.com, the expression "Taiwan (Formosa)" was being used as early as 1901. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

For what a gbook ngrams is worth, it shows a decrease in Formosa from the 1950s. CMD (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs A thought strikes me — nobody ever uses "East Congo" or "West Congo" to refer to a couple of countries with confusing names; they're the only ones where the formal names get any significant common use in my experience. And unlike Korea, Germany, Viet Nam, and China, they were never forcibly divorced from each other because of communism; ever since actual states were first formed there, they've been separate entities. Maybe there's a connection between these facts. Nyttend (talk) 20:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs -- "Nationalist China" was suitable as long as the Nationalist Party or Kuomintang dominated there, but it lost its monopoly of power some time ago. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Now Beijing seems to be distinctly more nationalist! I think the RoC ought to grant independence to each of the mainland provinces. —Tamfang (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Occasionally people will say Free China, but obviously this conveys a particular political position. I haven't heard it in quite a while, maybe because the implicit subtext is that the ROC is the legitimate government of the whole of China, which (quite irrespective of whether it would be desirable or not) does not seem to be a realistic aspiration at the current moment. --Trovatore (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

A more blatant (and facetious) way of implying that that I've seen on Reddit is to refer to the PRC as "West Taiwan". Iapetus (talk) 10:19, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I seem to remember Made in Taiwan becoming the challenger to Made in Japan as the origin label for cheap tat in the 1970s. DuncanHill (talk) 21:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

"American components, Russian components..." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

OR: I lived and worked in Taipei during the transition. Prior to the 1980s, it’s all politics. If you prefer the KMT, it’s ROC; if you like the CCP, it’s Taiwan (or, in international conventions, “Taipei, China,” or “Taiwan Province of China.”). From the 1980s, Taiwan was commonly used by anyone not pro-CCP, or forced by the PRC to use one of the "polite" titles I cite above. And, since the ROC includes many small islands that are not Taiwan, using Taiwan also began to mean “we really, really don’t want any Mainland government to have the least bit of control over our lives.” DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

So you want to know when the world decided to Taiwan on? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I remember seeing, probably in 198x, tourism posters for “Taiwan: island province of the Republic of China”. —Tamfang (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

8 pointed star emblem

[3] What if anything is signified by the necklace emblem that German politician Sahra Wagenknecht is shown wearing? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I’m going to guess that it is simply jewelry, and does not signify anything special. Blueboar (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

We have articles on Rub el Hizb (the title should actually technically be "Rub' al-Hizb"), Star of Lakshmi, and Star of Ishtar, but none has a close resemblance. It looks like a general quasi-Arabesque design... AnonMoos (talk) 01:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. Yes she is of partly Iranian descent and I guess she chose the symbol accordingly. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 21:08, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

September 2

Book loss in the Middle Ages and early modern times?

Is there actually any serious literature or documents on the loss of books that occurred from the Middle Ages to the early modern period? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:1D70:BDF0:96DF:1D8D (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you seen the fabulous article de:Bücherverluste in der Spätantike? (The English Loss of books in late antiquity isn't quite as extensive). That may not be the time period you seem to be asking about, but maybe it can provide some leads. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

We also have a general article or list, Lost literary work... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The Cambridge History of Libraries in Britain and Ireland highlights the loss of libraries during the English Reformation and the English Civil War. I suspect it would be different for each individual country, but the religious turmoil of the 15th and 16th centuries might be a common theme. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Historical real estate or land prices: Tel Aviv, Singapore, Dubai

Are there sources for the long-term real estate (or raw land) prices across the world? I'm especially interested in "new" settlements such as Tel Aviv, Singapore, and Dubai from the 1950s or 1960s to Dubai. I'd like to compare them to neighboring cities (Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta, Riyadh, Jeddah, Kuwait City, etc.). I can't find anything... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Double-check your assumptions. According to our articles on Singapur and Kuala Lumpur, Singapore is about 550 years older than KL. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Technically true, but the real discrepancy is not that great. Per the articles:

"Prior to Raffles' arrival (in 1819), there were only about a thousand people living on the island (of Singapore]", and

"Kuala Lumpur is considered by some to have been founded by the Malay Chief of Klang, Raja Abdullah, who sent Chinese miners into the region to open tin mines in 1857, although it is unclear who the first settlers were since there were likely settlements at the Gombak-Klang river confluence prior to that in the 1820s."

[Ex-Hong Kong and Singapore resident.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 23:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@DOR (HK): yes but that's not the point. I'd like to see the price increase since the "boom"/"birth"/"independence" of these cities. So for instance, 1948 for TLV, 1965 for SG, 1971 for DXB and 1980 for Shenzhen (even though it has "this area has seen human activity from more than 6,700 years ago, with Shenzhen's historic counties first established 1,700 years ago"). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Tel Aviv became a substantial urban settlement starting in the mid-1930s, but I really would not expect much correlation between property values there and in Jerusalem (which has an entirely different geographic location and cultural history), much less cities in hostile foreign countries (as Egypt was before the late 1970s, and Lebanon and Syria still are). Maybe there could be a correlation between property values in Tel Aviv and Haifa... AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in this lack of correlation: you bought a piece of land in the mid-1930 (or 1940s) in TLV, Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Alexandria, Gaziantep, Limassol, Sharm El-Sheikh, etc.: what are they all worth today? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

While there may well be pre-WWII sales prices for some real estate in those places, there is almost certainly nothing comparable to the city-wide averages (or similar) we have today. Apples and mangoes. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources must exist, presumably there would have been adverts in newspapers and magazines. Presumably people had to disclose value of properties for taxation reasons, at least in some of these cases. --Soman (talk) 22:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Apparently the British military was willing to sell a property at the Sharjah sailing club for 100 pounds in 1972 - https://www.agda.ae/en/catalogue/tna/fco/8/1814/n/15 . Presumably the property value has increased since. --Soman (talk) 23:03, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

One rather suspects that transaction was not at arm's length, still less at market value. DuncanHill (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes I don't hope to find an index but some anecdotal evidence such as ads in newspapers or mentions later in newspapers and books ("My dad bought this land in 1965 for 150 dollars"). Thanks @Soman, that's a great example. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

""Land for any purpose is sold by the square foot, and a residential or suburban villa in Dubai may cost as much as $15 per square foot - or $600,000 per acre. A suburban villa rents for $15,000-$20,000 or more per year, with a 2-3 year payment in advance. Because of these land costs, it is easy to understand why private investors lean heavily toward high-rise apartments of some 13 or 14 stories." ([4]) Now this quote is from a 1977 publication, so post oil boom of the 1970s. --Soman (talk) 11:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

From 1963: "The market in Dubai was fairly brisk in July and August considering the time of year, and, as usual, was very busy in September. Although reexports to Iran were not good more goods were going to Pakistan and India again. But there was a hint of overstocking and many merchants appeared to realise for the first time how much of Dubai's present prosperity depends on the uncertain prospect of oil. The cost of land remained high (23/- to 30/- a square foot for land in the business area 6/- to 9/- in the residential areas), fewer sales were made." [5] --Soman (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Dubai, 1961 - "His Excellency the Ruler has also instructed his Engineering Consultants to prepare plans for a bridge across the creek, which is expected to cost $190,000; and to continue design studies for the reclamation of a narrow strip of land along the Daira water front, on which shops and a road would be built; the road should help to relieve the present traffic congestion considerably. The asking price for land in this area is sometimes as high as £4-10 sh a square foot, and the sale of the shops might well pay for the reclamation." ([6]) --Soman (talk) 11:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot @Soman! "23/-" means 23 shillings while "£4-10 sh" means "4 to 10 shillings" or 4 pounds and 10 shillings? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "/-" is an alternative abbreviation to s, which is the "shillings" in a price, originally, for example, 4l 10s 6d (four pounds, ten shillings and sixpence, 4.525 pounds in decimal money. The presence of the pound sign in the second quote indicates "4l 10s" (4.50 pounds in decimal money). 2A02:C7B:232:500:3CB6:5B8B:EF2E:8517 (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, in these examples, land was way more expensive in 1961 (£4.5/sq ft) than in 1963 (~£1/sq ft)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The 1961 factoid relates to the Deira seafront, which would have been a top location. And it says "up to 4-10 sh" so presumably there were some cheaper lots as well. The 1963 estimates would have been the more normal prices perhaps. --Soman (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

OK thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Are we quite sure that the / in the 1963 item doesn't mean Rupee? Dubai used the Gulf rupee at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Did the Gulf rupee use "/-"? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It was only separated from the Indian rupee a few years before, so I would suspect yes, but that said I've had the time now to read the rest of the 1963 source, which predominantly gives values in Sterling, and uses Rps for Rupees, so I think shillings is right here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Problem solved then, thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

September 3

Kos

On page 16 of “Goshen,” Edouard Naville says there are several places called κως in upper Egypt. Where are they? Temerarius (talk) 03:25, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Qus seems to have the same Coptic spelling. I didn't find any others. Alansplodge (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I guess q collapsed into k in Coptic. The reason I'm asking is to distinguish these places from those called Qos and Qosia, such as Cusae. I've seen at least three minor Wikipedia pages for such a place name, and I've been meaning to see if they're erroneously various, ie redundant, or numerous. And now I don't know how to find them again; the A-Z index isn't helping.

Temerarius (talk) 23:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I've noticed so far in the index--it's giving a few places in Iran (and less the expected Arabian locations) that start with similar, though. What does qos mean in Persian?

Temerarius (talk) 23:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Persian does not have such a word. Omidinist (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure I found more places in Upper Egypt called Qis, Kosia, similar in stubs. Anybody else? Can one find wikipedia pages by geocoordinate proximity? It'd be one good way to find redundant pages for same place.

Temerarius (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

September 4

The way of all flesh: origin

I've just posted a query @ Talk:The Way of All Flesh, but I have a different (if not unrelated) query for my esteemed colleagues at the Ref Desk.

We say Samuel Butler took the phrase "The way of all flesh" from the Douay–Rheims Bible, specifically 1 Kings. I note that the first part of the DRB Old Testament, in which 1 Kings is located, was published in 1609.

However, the phrase appeared in John Webster's play Westward Hoe [sic], published in 1607.

• I saw him even now going the way of all flesh, that is to say towards the kitchen.

Webster is not in Category:Translators of the King James Version (pub. 1611), so I presume he wasn't (known to be) involved in that. But could he have been involved in the Douay-Rheims version (1609), and perhaps there re-used an expression he had coined for his 1607 play? Our article doesn't mention any individual translators, there's no Category:Translators of the Douay-Rheims Bible, and google produces no results.

Or perhaps another translator had seen or read Webster's play and stole the words for the DR Bible. Is there anything known about such a connection? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Most of the translators were outside England, in France. AnonMoos (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

"The most noble and myghty prince Ferdinandus the Romayne Emperour, for whose Funeral this preparation and concourse is here made, hath entred the way of all fleshe" E. Grindal, Serm. Funeral Prince Ferdinandus sig. C.ii. 1564. "Compare post-classical Latin via universae carnis the way of all flesh (from 11th cent. in British and continental sources". OED. DuncanHill (talk) 00:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Ferdinandus being of course Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor. DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

OK, so for me that makes it even less likely that Butler got it from the DR Bible. It seems to be an expression that had been bandied about for centuries; then it found its way into the DR Bible. Curious. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The Vulgate generally uses (ingredior) viam universae terrae, "(I enter) the way of all earth", but Genesis 6:19 has (animantes) universae carnis, "(living creatures) of all flesh.^[7] Onulf of Haumont (11th century) uses (ingredior) viam universae carnis.^[8] Thomas Aquinas (13th century) refers to Genesis 6:19 when writing finis universae carnis, "the end of all flesh". ^[9]  --Lambiam 09:49, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a much earlier use of (ingredior) viam universae terrae, to wit by Alcuin (8th century).^[10] Also one by an unknown author but ascribed to Gregory of Tours (6th century).^[11]  --Lambiam 10:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Wycliffe's Bible of 1382 has "the weie of al erthe". [12]

The Great Bible of 1539 has "the waye of all the worlde". [13]

The Bishops' Bible of 1568 has "the way al the earth". [14]

The King James Version of 1611 has "the way of all the earth". [15]

Alansplodge (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you, all. I've taken this as far as I can for now, by adding a "citation required" tag to the claim in the WOAF article.-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

So, I found Michael J. Lewis "Unearthing the Entitled: 1 Kings, Douay-Rheims, and Samuel Butler's THE WAY OF ALL FLESH", doi: 10.1080/00144940.2014.962451, pub. Taylor and Francis Online, available through WP Library. Lewis cites Shaheen, Naseeb. “Butler’s Use of Scripture in The Way of All Flesh.” Essays in Literature vol 5 No. 1 (1976), which is also available through WP Library. Shaheen (p. 42 [pdf 4]) shows that Butler tended to consistently use the KJV - his dad was a CoE vicar, and Butler was especially familiar with the Psalter and the BCP. His note 9 mentions the Dekker/Webster quote you give in your OP, also the title could be patterned after Congreve's The Way of the World. Shaheen doesn't mention the Douai-Rheims at all, but mentions a list of 500 quotes from the Bible found in TWOAF. Lewis says "...the title’s biblical allusion is notable in that it references a verse found in only one English translation of the Christian Bible: the 1609 Douay-Rheims Old Testament." Lewis (p. 267, [pdf 2]) says "It is from within this Catholic context, wherein the impossibility of error is guaranteed despite multiple instances of institutionally approved translations, that Butler drew the ironic title for his Anglican-focused, “Authorized Version”–infused novel.[4] - n4: See Tyndale." So there is no agreement on the exact source of the title, but plenty of refs and reading. Personally I would be expect Butler to have been familiar with Douai, he was very erudite: but like Butler I lost any faith I once had and am now an Olympian. HTH, MinorProphet (talk) 16:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The mention of Westward Hoe reminds me of the only place name in the British Isles that ends in an exclamation mark. MinorProphet (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your research, Minor Prophet. That's very much appreciated.

So, the essential point for WP purposes is "there is no agreement on the exact source of the title". I'll copy your response to Talk:The Way of All Flesh, for general erudition. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

No worries. Incidentally, this site compares many (but not all) Bible versions, verse by verse. MinorProphet (talk) 14:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Pulp character

There was a series of pulp novels whose main hero refused to kill his opponents, but would sometimes shoot them in such a way that the bullet grazed their skulls, knocking them unconscious. No need to point out that this is unrealistic; I understand that.

What I was wondering is whether anyone knows the name of the character. I think it might have been Avenger (pulp-magazine character), but I don't see that detail in the article. --Trovatore (talk) 01:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Avenger article you linked does say (at the end of the the "Gadgets" subsection) that "Benson could shoot someone so that his bullet just touched their heads and knocked them out". Deor (talk) 15:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks; I missed that. Also the article for the first story mentioned, Justice, Inc., mentions it in the plot summary. --Trovatore (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's either that or the Green Hornet. Abductive (reasoning) 19:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

It reminds me of the Lone Ranger. Part of his personal code was Whenever he was forced to use guns, he never shot to kill, but instead tried to disarm his opponent as painlessly as possible. Cullen328 (talk) 06:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, is that where that idea comes from? An unfortunate number of people seem to think you can "shoot to disarm" or at least "shoot to wound". Maybe I have some responsibility, having raised the point, to point out that you really can't do that; if you shoot at someone you take full responsibility for killing them (and very well may do so), and so you should never fire at a person unless you are actually justified in killing them.

See also Jeff Cooper's four rules, the second of which is "never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy". --Trovatore (talk) 02:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

At midnight, on the 12th of August...

"At midnight, on the 12th of August, a huge mass of luminous green gas erupted from Mars and sped towards Earth..." does the Narrator mean Midnight at night or Midnight in the morning? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that's genuinely ambiguous. One of the advantages of the 24-hour clock is it makes this clear; you can say 2400 on 11 August or 0000 on 12 August, to indicate the same instant. --Trovatore (talk) 01:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

What is the year for the event he's describing? Or is that a line from War of the Worlds? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Seems to be a paraphrase of a passage in Chapter 1: "As Mars approached opposition, Lavelle of Java set the wires of the astronomical exchange palpitating with the amazing intelligence of a huge outbreak of incandescent gas upon the planet. It had occurred towards midnight of the 12th, and the spectroscope, to which he had at once resorted, indicated a mass of flaming gas, chiefly hydrogen, moving with an enormous velocity torwards this earth. This jet of fire had become invisible about a quarter past twelve." (The War of the Worlds, Book One: The Coming of the Martians, 1 The Eve of the War). The year is 1894; since the narrator is in England and the subject is astronomical, the time will be in GMT (which was renamed for astronomical purposes Universal Time (UT) only in 1928). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Sort of, but you missed a step. It looks like it's more directly from a song by Jeff Wayne called "The Eve of the War", which in turn appears to be based on War of the Worlds. (We'll see if either of those links comes up blue.) --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's where it's from. DuncanHill (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Then that answers the OP's question. The only way to go "toward" the midnight of the 12th is from the 12th. So "midnight of the 12th" would mean the point between the 12th and the 13th. "Midnight in the morning" would simply mean the earliest point in the morning, of the 13th in this case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Plus, "midnight on Earth" is time-zone specific. Or it could mean midnight on Mars! Dekimasuよ! 05:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I said, what time is it, what time is it on Earth? Can you tell me that without an exercise in Euclidean geometry? --Trovatore (talk) 21:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

What the heck is "midnight in the morning"? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Midnight in the morning of 5 September is 2024:09:05::00:00:00.  --Lambiam 09:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that struck me as a really odd way of phrasing it. In my somewhat limited experience of life, midnight always happens at night! I think the question is really asking whether it means the midnight that marks the end of the 11th and the start of the 12th, or the midnight that marks the end of the 12th and the start of the 13th. AndyJones (talk) 12:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Conventionally we say 12:00 a.m. to mean the start of a new day. "Midnight of the morning", so to speak. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Any day can be said to have two midnights. One in the morning, one at night. I've often used the phrase "midnight in the morning" and never known anyone struggle to understand it before. DuncanHill (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

In Wells's time, I believe, astronomers reckoned dates from noon. I don't know whether they were half a day ahead or half a day behind their neighbors. —Tamfang (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but they do this in the Proleptic Julian calendar counting in days (only) from noon on Monday, January 1, 4713 BC (it avoids possible confusions and mathematical complications from changing the date halfway through a night's observations), and it was and is only used within observational notes and calculations, not in announcements or articles for the general public, so in this case (a story related by a non-Astronomer) it wouldn't feature.

For similar reasons, Astronomers use a Year zero between AD 1 and 1 BC (which they call –1) when calculating event dates and orbits stretching that far back, and have to take this into account when correlating with ancient records of, e.g. eclipses whose dates have been converted to the ordinary Gregorian calendar. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 08:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, I'm not sure what FKA meant here exactly, but astronomers don't call 1 BC "−1". Rather 1 BC is their year 0, as explained at our astronomical year numbering article. Their −1 would be 2 BC.

Astronomers are impressive in their way, but they can't change the past (though they can rename it), and they don't interpose a fictional year that never existed. --Trovatore (talk) 19:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

This is why I trust historians over astronomers: "It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him in this respect that He tolerates their existence" (Samuel Butler, Erewhon Revisited, 1901). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

What we have on noon dating is at Epoch (astronomy) (see dates ending in ".5"). Of course, astronomers' telescopes are in use at midnight, but not at noon (with rare exceptions such as the McMath-Pierce solar telescope). Not sure this would have affected H.G. Wells... AnonMoos (talk) 18:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Hiroshima atomic bomb dome

wp:deny
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Who were all the people inside that dome killed by the bomb? Who was its last director? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.117.137 (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC) Block evasion. Dekimasuよ! 00:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC) What are you talking about? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC) The Hiroshima Peace Memorial. DuncanHill (talk) 00:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Abolition of Turkish para

For much of the 20th century, stamps of the Republic of Turkey stamps were denominated in para or kuruş, and while 100 kuruş equalled a lira, the larger unit sometimes wasn't used on denominations: for example, the 1950 stamp series had values of 10p, 20p, 1k...100k, 200k. After a while, inflation caused everything to be denominated in a larger number of kuruş, and then eventually everything went to lira only, but technically the kuruş still existed as a subdivision, even though the lira was worth so little that a basic postage stamp cost hundreds of thousands of lira.

With this in mind: when was the para formally abolished as a subdivision of the kuruş? Like the kuruş, did it formally exist long after it ceased to be a meaningful amount of money? I know that it hasn't existed since the revaluation of the Turkish lira in the 2000s, but I'm unsure if it were abolished before then. Our article on the para doesn't mention anything specific after 1844, except for mentioning that the new lira doesn't have para. The Turkish lira article doesn't even mention the para. Nyttend (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The Russian Wikipedia says that the last para coin was minted in 1942. Abductive (reasoning) 08:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't help solve the question, but the same situation existed with the Cypriot pound, although it was redenominated in 1955. CMD (talk) 06:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

September 5

Egyptian staves, rods, and sceptres

Other than the was, how many named Egyptian staffs are there? As a matter of interest, there are Burkinabe dead ringers for the was sceptre in “Land of the Flying Masks: Art and Culture in Burkina Faso” by Wheelock and Roy, objects 237-8. Temerarius (talk) 00:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

See Ancient Egypt Online - Royal Emblems. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Athlete's signature moves

Modern international athletics has a great deal of television coverage, When the athletes are introduced before a race/ competition and the cameras fall on them, many perform a signature move that usually involves hand gestures and/ or a whole-body pose. Is there a name for these? The well-known Mo Farah#"Mobot" and the lightning bolt were examples of "victory poses", struck after the event. But what are these pre-competition poses called? Thanks. 86.175.173.28 (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I thought Usain Bolt's signature move was firing an imaginary arrow from an imaginary bow (plenty of photos of it on Google Images if you search "usain bolt archery pose"), but it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the article. Noah Lyles did a lot of jumping up and down before the 100 meter race in Paris, but I don't know if that was a move or just letting off energy. I'm not sure that I saw a lot of personally-specific gesturing before events in the Paris coverage, just smiling or waving for the camera, Catholics doing the Sign of the Cross, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 23:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Showboating:the term "showboat" became slang for someone who wants ostentatious behavior to be seen at all costs. This term is particularly applied in sports, where a showboat (or sometimes "showboater") will do something flashy before (or even instead of) actually achieving his or her goal. The word is also used as a verb. British television show Soccer AM has a section named "Showboat", dedicated to flashy tricks from the past week's games.

I came to the term through https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1825101/2020/05/26/the-simpsons-25-top-sports-episodes/ and Homer and Ned's Hail Mary Pass

--Error (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's mostly on the track, isn't it. Where they're all getting lined up for the 400 metres, 800 metres, something like that? It looks like these guys have been hangin' an' chillin' too long with the dog and dem nigz. Even the blond Scandanavian ones. You expect them to say something like "Fo' Shizzle ma nizzle" or "check it, Mutha", before they take to the blocks? Quite disconcerting. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Help me!

Lincoln is believed to have said this:

After all, it was Abraham Lincoln himself who proclaimed on June 2, 1861, that "The problem with information that you read on the Internet is that it is not always true."

This makes no sense because there was no such thing as the Internet for more than a century after that. The Internet began in 1969. What is this supposed to mean?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a meme. It is supposed to represent the fact that you can't believe everything written on the Internet...including things Lincoln said. Knitsey (talk) 22:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

You can buy fake historical markers, metal plaques with the text: "On March 2, 1836 Texas declared her independence from Mexico. Wild Comanches roamed the plains, Rangers protected frontier settlements, and this building was not here yet." -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't President Abraham Lincoln. It was Abraham Lincoln (time traveler). (What, no article?) Clarityfiend (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Strange things keep happening to editors who create one. —Tamfang (talk) 01:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I hope this is in no way a serious question. But if it is, the OP might find himself the subject of a meme. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Such as item 15 on this list:[16] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That quote is a common misattribution; it originated from Mark Twain^* Oscar Wilde.

*"I never said that." --Mark Twain 136.54.237.174 (talk) 13:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

"I really didn't say everything I said" -- Yogi Berra. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Has the word "meme" replaced the word "joke" in 2024? The kernel of truth in the joke/meme is that Lincoln was an enthusiastic user of the telegraph during the American Civil War, and the telegraph was the earliest form of instant network communication over long distances that eventually led to the internet over a century later. Here's more information. Cullen328 (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The telegrams Lincoln was interested in were from U.S. military people and eyewitness war correspondents. Not sure how relevant that is to sifting through unverified information from random unknown people, which is the characteristic of the Internet age... AnonMoos (talk) 17:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

If you look into Lincoln's relationships with his generals, you can see that he was very interested in sorting out poor quality telegrams from better ones. A big part of the reason that Lincoln fired George McClellan as Commanding General of the U.S. Army is because McClellan's telegrams to Lincoln were inaccurate, evasive and dismissive. Part of the reason that Lincoln backed Ulysses Grant so enthusiastically as Commanding General toward the end of the war is that Grant's telegrams to Lincoln were responsive, accurate and respectful, and that Grant carried out Lincoln's strategic vision that was communicated to his generals largely by telegram. Plus, Grant was racking up major victories. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Starcky tablet

The item is listed "possibly" from Al-Safira on KAI texts, was it not from a secure archaeological context? https://doi.org/10.3406%2Fsyria.1960.5506 And does anyone have better pics than the old black-and-white ones for the other Sefire steles? They're hard to compare. Temerarius (talk) 23:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have specific knowledge of the item, but from what I have read, a great many artifacts in the Middle East (and doubtless elsewhere) are illegally excavated (or stolen) and sold on the black market, necessarily without secure provenance - greatly reducing their archeological value, of course. Some of these eventually reach the hands of bona fide scholars, but many are reluctant to even refer to them because they fear it will encourage more thefts.

In some cases, it may be possible by various methods, such as soil analysis, matching of other known fragments, etc., to show where such an artifact likely came from. The long-missing 10th ossuary from the Talpiot tomb, recently shown by soil-residue analysis to be the controversial James Ossuary, is a case in point. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 04:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

September 6

Can someone help find an obituary for Radha Charan Gupta?

According to User:Yadavjp and an IP editor, the Indian historian of mathematics Radha Charan Gupta died today in New Dehli. Can someone help me find an obituary or other public source confirming this? –jacobolus (t) 06:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.news18.com/education-career/doyen-of-vedic-mathematics-professor-radha-charan-gupta-dies-bundelkhand-university-mourns-9041338.html reports this, but not the site of death. --Soman (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this is a translation of the article in Hindi that an IP editor added to the article after I posted this request. (I think they came from here.) I'll cite this one as well, pending probably more complete obituaries to come over the coming days and weeks. (Also it seems he died at home in Jhansi.) –jacobolus (t) –jacobolus (t) 16:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way, if anyone wants to help I threw this on Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#RD: Radha Charan Gupta yesterday but got no replies. I'm not really familiar with how the "in the news" section works, but Gupta seems like the kind of person worth mentioning among the recent deaths. –jacobolus (t) 03:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a preference (I think) to highlight on the Main Page only articles of a good standard (though not necessarily only those rated as WP:GA). Radha Charan Gupta is fairly short (though not a stub) and is currently rated 'Start-class', which may perhaps need revisiting.

If anyone has the expertise and time to rapidly expand the Article, it would probably improve its candidacy for 'In the news.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

jacobolus, see this Times of India obituary. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! –jacobolus (t) 14:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

NGO inclusion

I always hear people say "NGO" to describe an organization. Are organizations such as Girl Scouts of the USA and Science Olympiad considered NGOs? 172.56.164.27 (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Non-governmental organization: While there is no fixed or formal definition for what NGOs are, they are generally defined as nonprofit entities that are independent of governmental influence—although they may receive government funding.[11] According to the UN Department of Global Communications, an NGO is "a not-for profit, voluntary citizen's group that is organized on a local, national or international level to address issues in support of the public good".[5] The term NGO is used inconsistently, and is sometimes used synonymously with civil society organization (CSO), which is any association founded by citizens.[12] In some countries, NGOs are known as nonprofit organizations while political parties and trade unions are sometimes considered NGOs as well.[13]

--Error (talk) 17:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

September 7

Leander ships?

On Spanish wikipedia article es:Leander it mentioned that the ship was finished in 1799, with data consistent with [17]. We have an article on Leander (1799 ship). Is this the same ship? The Spanish article has nothing between 1799-1803, the English article has nothing beyond 1801. -- Soman (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure, but I have posted a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships#Leander 1799 query in the hope that the experts there can solve the conundrum. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems unlikely. I cannot read Spanish fluently, but the ship in the Spanish article appears to have been built in Greenock, Scotland, and had a 200 ton displacement, while that in this Wikipedia was built on the Thames and had a 429 or 439 ton displacement. Other details also appear to differ. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, definitely different ships. They both appear in Lloyd's Register 1801 here (along with a third, built in Sunderland, also in 1799). - Davidships (talk) 02:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Clydeships has an entry for the Leander on es-wiki. Deleted from registers in 1813. Mjroots (talk) 07:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

September 8

Motherfucker in myth

Have there been any academic monographs or papers on the concept in myth (eg Egyptian "ka mut-f", the "bull of his mother") or history (eg 1 Corinthians 5)? The term is today energetic yet meaningless; in the past not so. Temerarius (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The "his father's wife" in the Bible passage presumably refers to his STEP-mother. I bet there's a huge literature on Oedipus, from Greek plays to Freud etc etc. AnonMoos (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Oedipus reflected cultural anxiety about eventual incest risk from infant exposure (not resulting in death,) which was a legitimate concern at the time. That and the later Freudian ideas were quite isolated from the mythic phenomenon. And quite unlike eg Xwedodah.

Temerarius (talk) 01:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

September 9

Harry Potter sorting hat

The sorting hat classified incoming Hogwarts students as brave (Gryffindor), hardworking (Hufflepuff), intellectually curious (Ravenclaw), or ambitious (Slytherin). Maybe I'm reading too much fanfiction but I find myself applying those patterns to real life, e.g. "such-and-such jerk [politician or tech tycoon] is a real Slytherin".

Just how stupid is this? Some other schemes like Myers-Briggs are considered bogus but I see there are mappings online between that and Hogwarts houses.(personalityunleashed.com/16-personality-types-as-hogwarts-houses/) On the other hand, the five factor model is for some reason taken more seriously. Is there any reason to think Rowling was actually onto something with the sorting hat? E.g. does it reflect any known research before or after? For that matter is the whole industry of personality classification bogus? Four temperaments has some other schemes listed that I haven't looked into yet. It's hard to navigate web search results about Harry Potter because of all the merchandising that it finds. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

ALL politicians are Slytherin. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that occurred to me too. I've thought sometimes there are a few rare exceptions, but that is probably naive. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Certainly not all when they start their careers; many are driven by ideals rather than ambition. But those that do not nourish the Slytherin aspect of their (presumably pluripotent) personalities will usually not survive for long in the political ecosystem, so there is an effective sieve.  --Lambiam 23:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The categories are not mutually exclusive; I know more than a few people who are both hardworking and intellectually curious. And some folks fit in none of these categories yet are good people. We probably all know people that fit well in one of these prototypes, but I can think of many other prototypical categories: shy; indecisive; entitled and quarrelsome; nurturing; self-effacing. Rowling's categories are merely four spots in a vast sea of possibilities, deftly chosen because they serve the narrative well.  --Lambiam 00:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

People are famously complicated and categorizing them to ease the mental burden of understanding them is a perennial impulse. Unfortunately, these simplifications are always wrong and often harmful. "There are x kinds of people" isn't a something you hear from Plotinus and Wittgenstein, rather t-shirts. Rowling's now cemented legacy shows her dumber than a t-shirt: she made her eponymous a cop and she made herself a common hatemonger.

Temerarius (talk) 02:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The hat doesn't say each person belongs in exactly one category. Rather, each house requires certain attributes, and students with the attributes for than one house can discuss that with the hat and make their own choice, but of course they retain the attributes. Harry Potter in the JKR books was seen as both courageous and capable of greatness, so the hat offered him Slytherin and Gryffindor. Yeah JKR is looking feeble these days, but even when the HP books were first published, they weren't very good. I read the first few of them and gave up. I find that lots of HP fanfiction is simply better than the Rowling books. Re politicians I'd say e.g. Trump is Slytherin but also has some Gryffindor attributes. I mean the guy is brazen. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 03:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

So according to you, anyone who stands up for the rights of women (in sports, prisons etc) is a "common hatemonger"? That's certainly a point of view. And whatever Rowling's literary merits or demerits, she got millions of tween and teen boys reading, when otherwise they would have been playing videogames. Meanwhile, someone who has read the first third of the first Harry Potter book should know that Rowling was not setting up four mutually-exclusive categories -- as the anonynmous IP mentioned, the Sorting Hat said Harry could go into either Gryffindor or Slytherin, and seemed to be leaning a little toward Slytherin (but Harry strongly preferred Gryffindor)... AnonMoos (talk) 18:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

iirc the hat also made ludicrously bad mistakes, despite portraying itself as infallible. The whole "your fate is sealed, but the guy deciding fate is a bit insane" thing is a pretty common British childrens lit trope, as is especially the horrific-orphan-origins-with-abusive-adopted family thing. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

There do exist personality tests in psychology, with actual "sorting" of sorts. A bit of an overview of the tests that I found for free on NIH from Silverman. For example, you can see all the things MMPI has been adjusted and re-adjusted to have as its personality axes. There's also the Rorschach Test, which is not supposed to measure anything about how you think, but just to place you into population buckets (and that's pretty much what all clinical personality tests are doing, and arguably what all population-calibrated tests do in general). Then those population buckets are correlated to quite a bit of medically relevant information, like pharmacological response or prognosis, which can hopefully guide treatment.

It's not destiny, and it says little to nothing about your actual personality -- it's just that your honest score on a psychology test groups you with population A, and population A is correlated to study subpopulation outcomes X, and importantly the test is shown to be predictive and stable. Contrast those statistically important criteria that validate the tests above to, say, what has been determined about Myers–Briggs Type Indicator testing, and hopefully you'll start to get a feel for what "real" vs "fake" "personality testing" is supposed to do (afaiu). SamuelRiv (talk) 03:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Provinces of French Algeria

During the later years of French Algeria, was the region divided into provinces, or was it merely regions and departments like in the rest of France? The French Algeria article doesn't use the word "province" except for an event in 1847, and its "Government and administration" section doesn't really address geographic subdivisions. Departments_of_France#Former_departments mentions several in Algeria, but I'm unsure whether provinces existed too.

Context: 1954 Chlef earthquake begins by saying that the earthquake happened in a specific province of French Algeria. I'm uncomfortable with this introduction, because it's anachronistic unless provinces existed in Algeria in 1954. Nyttend (talk) 22:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The Provinces of Algeria article says "1957–1974: Immediately after independence, Algeria retained its 15 former French départements, which were renamed wilayas (provinces) in 1968, for the most part, with some name changes" Abductive (reasoning) 23:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

In 1954 there were still only three départements in Algeria (Alger, Oran and Constantine), approximately covering the northern third of the country; the vast and sparsely populated southern regions were simply unorganized territory (the linked article about former French départements had a map). It would be anachronistic to refer to a post-1957 département or province in an article about an event in 1954. Xuxl (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

If you scroll down to the middle of this page, there's a photograph including a map which shows only northern Algeria as belonging to Nato... AnonMoos (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

September 10

The Cat in Ancient Egypt by Langton

Is this work (ISBN 0710307101) on archive.org or similar for easy download? Temerarius (talk) 02:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Unlikely, since it was published in 2006 by a prominent publisher (Routledge), and while it seems not to be currently available from them, is recent enough that they would come down hard on any pirate online publication. Second-hand copies are likely available from the usual sources. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 07:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

First published 1940. Do we know when the Langtons died? DuncanHill (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Henry Neville Langton died in 1948. Need a date for his wife. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Blanche died in a Worthing nursing home in August 1974, so not out of copyright yet. DuncanHill (talk) 11:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I found NOTES ON SOME SMALL EGYPTIAN FIGURES OF CATS By NEVILLE LANGTON but I suppose that doesn't help.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not the book, but I like the figures! Thanks folks.

Temerarius (talk) 20:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

My annoyance insists that I note surprise at a book published 1940 not yet belonging to the public. It's offensive to the ideals of humanism and scholarship. But my thanks to those who investigated the question. Temerarius (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Incidentally, a late addition to your "misdeeds of archeology" question: Sven Rosborn and the Curmsun Disc. Several Danish scholars seem determined to disbelieve this object and happy to imply Rosborn faked it.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

If you need additional help getting a resource here of any kind, check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange. They've generally been able to help me track down anything I've needed that was not lost to history or in a warzone. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Seth / Sutekh name and origin

I've seen an odd claim on a couple pages that Set(h) and Sutek were separate and independent gods later merged. Presuming this is false (to me it resembles a cultural-ideological denial) why would someone want to claim so? I'm not sure what culture-ideology would be against a common origin, as the Biblical Seth is--obviously he must have a connection to the Egyptian Seth, but nobody bothers making that argument. So I don't see the motivation from that crowd, the typical suspect for claims with a protesting heartiness like this one. Temerarius (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Your question is unclear, and it is unclear which (Wikipedia?) articles you are referring to, but two entities having the same spelling (in English) does not "obviously" mean there "must" be a connection. If you have a reliable source for your claim (essential) I suggest you discuss with other editors on the relevant talk page, presumably Talk:Set (deity). Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Did I say I was gonna argue it? My question is a matter of curiosity, not Interest.

Temerarius (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The name in the Tenakh is שֵׁת‎, which should be transcribed as Shet or, scientifically, Šet. This does not correspond to the hieroglyphic spellings.  --Lambiam 08:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

If you're going scientific, Šeṯ (or Šeth). The plosive 't' is an artefact of Modern Hebrew. ColinFine (talk) 10:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Begadkefat likely first occurred in spoken Hellenistic Hebrew (i.e. during the last few centuries BC), under Aramaic influence. Before that time there would not have been any fricative (spirantized) allophones. AnonMoos (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know that! That does reduce the "obviously" of it. However, there was a fluidity of silibants in and between Egyptian and the Semitic languages early on that sometimes allows imperfectly matching correspondences.

Temerarius (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

US enhanced driver license REALID compliant?

Are enhanced driver licenses issued by certain US states compliant with REALID? I have read, for example, they will be accepted in the same way as REALID by the Transportation Security Administration at airports, but I haven't found any legislation saying they ARE REALID. My question is prompted by a bill in Congress, Safeguard American Voter Eligibility Act. (This is a redirect to a section in "Electoral fraud in the United States".) My concern is just because one agency considers them equivalent does not guarantee all federal and state agencies will consider them equivalent. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, if your driver's license / DMV ID card has a yellow-encircled star on it, it's compliant... AnonMoos (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

For non-Americans, see Real ID Act. Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

September 12

"The Irish have a certain root"

"*The Merry-Thought*" (see Hurlothrumbo#Namesakes) is an eighteenth-century collection of graffiti. The fourth book was published around 1731, and it contains:

On Miss Sk—— at Tunbridge.

The Irish have a certain Root,

Our Parsnip’s very like unto’t,

Which eats with Butter wond’rous well,

And like Potatoes makes a Meal.

Now from this Root there comes a Name,

Which own’d is by the beauteous Dame,

Who sways the Heart of him who rules

A mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools.

From the rest of the book, it seems that rebuses on women's names were a popular subject for graffitists at the time, and most of the women were not famous. Usually the book gives the answer in the title it uses for the rebus, but in this case it doesn't, and I can't think of the answer.

We know that the name begins "Sk", or possibly "Sc" in modern spelling. It also means a root vegetable, and I can't think of any that begin that way.

If the verse had said that the woman herself ruled a mighty herd, it would have implied she had many admirers. Instead, it says she swayed the heart of someone who does. Who was that? The king at the time was George II of Great Britain. Wikipedia says his lovers were:

• Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach, his wife;
• Henrietta Howard, per English and British royal mistresses;
• Amalie von Wallmoden, ditto;
• Sally Salisbury, per Category:Mistresses of George II of Great Britain

none of whom has a name beginning Sk—, or shared with a root vegetable.

(It may be relevant, but probably isn't, that "potato" once meant a sweet potato, the other kind being called "Virginia potatoes".)

I'm stumped. Any thoughts? Marnanel (talk) 12:34, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Skirret? Mikenorton (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

And Maria, Lady Walpole, née Skerret, not a royal consort, but she certainly swayed the heart of Robert Walpole. Mikenorton (talk) 12:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Presumably the "mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools" are the members of parliament. Mikenorton (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't there a scandal about Walpole going down to Tunbridge Wells to see Molly while she was taking the cure? Something in Pope (I think he was agin her), or Lady Mary Wortley Montagu (she was a friend)? DuncanHill (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps something to do with scorzonera, another name for black salsify (which, despite the alternative name, is not in the genus Scorzonera)?  --Lambiam 20:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Asquith's letters to Hilda Harrisson

One of H. H. Asquith's lady friends was Hilda Harrisson (1888-1972) (mother of Anne Symonds) to whom he left £2500 in his will. Two selections of his letters to Hilda were sympathetically edited by Desmond MacCarthy and published as Letters of the Earl of Oxford and Asquith to a Friend, first & second series, in the 1930s. I would like to know if the originals survive? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Over 360 of them were put up for auction a few months ago with an estimated price of $15,000 to $25,000, but they remained unsold. Missed your chance there. Whether there are others elsewhere I know not. --Antiquary (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I must hurry up and win the Lottery. DuncanHill (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

September 14

Territorial continuity of Transnistria

Some maps show Transnistria as two territories with a small piece of land controlled by the Moldovan gov in between (see for instance: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Transnistria and File:Moldova adm location map.svg). The map used on the Wikipedia article uses a different color for that piece of land: File:Naddniestrze.png but there's no legend. Apparently Cocieri "remained in the area controlled by the Republic of Moldova" while nearby Roghi "is partly controlled by the secessionist government of Transnistria". Transnistria article says: "The main transportation route in Transnistria is the road from Tiraspol to Rîbnița through Dubăsari. North and south of Dubăsari it passes through the lands of the villages controlled by Moldova (Doroțcaia, Cocieri, Roghi, while Vasilievca is located entirely to the east of the road)." So who controls that piece of land? Do we have a reliable source? Should we update the maps? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a legend to the map in the Summary section of the page File:Naddniestrze.png; this legend is not included where the map is used on the page Transnistria.  --Lambiam 03:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. So the legend doesn't give the colors but the borders and I understand that this piece of land is claimed by Transnistria but controlled by Moldova with the exception of two roads? If I zoom in on the Wikivoyage map, they indeed show the Western road (not the Eastern one) as part of Transnistria. It would be great to have a single map backed by RS (there's also this one, a bit different, with some English typos, and whose accuracy is contested: File:Transnistria după Asybaris.jpg). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Considering that the state of Transnistria isn't recognised by Moldova, the situation is likely to be fuzzy in some places, and indeed this appears to be one of those fuzzy places. According to some maps, the M4 road is controlled by Transnistria as a corridor through Moldova controlled land. This M4 is crossed by a farm track. From the satellite images on Google Earth, it appears that there's no proper border checkpoint at this farm track. So who controls the fields? The farmer who works them. The whole area appears to be behind Transnistrian border checkpoints, but in reality that border may not be very hard and people tend to be pragmatic. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks. M4 highway (Moldova) also says: "The road is controlled in its entirety by the government of the unrecognized state of Transnistria, as the road primarily crosses through Transnistrian territory. However, near the city of Dubăsari, it crosses the de facto border between Moldova (Dubăsari District) and Transnistria on several occasions." I found RS. I'll edit other articles accordingly. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Name of this headdress?

Is there a name for this headdress? She's Anne of Brittany. Seems to have been commonly worn in her era. BorgQueen (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a general one. If there is, it will probably have been given by later historians. Generally, we have many unillustrated names in inventories etc, and a decent number of images, but hardly ever any source that links a name to a style. In English this is sometimes called a "French hood", but thisn't much use for France, imo, though I see we have an article. "Gable hood" for the distinctive angled English version is much better established, but I think also modern. Johnbod (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer! BorgQueen (talk) 12:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Coiffe française. The article names Anne de Bretagne as the OG of this coiffe.  --Lambiam 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust that - it's a direct translation of the en-wiki article. -- asilvering (talk) 05:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

OK. From a book with the title Anne de Bretagne: Sur les différentes enluminures où elle apparaît, elle porte toujours sur la tête ce qu'on appelle la cape bretonne.^[18] Also used in French in a magazine article from 1912.^[19] And in an English book entitled Womankind in Western Europe from the Earliest Times to the Seventeenth Century we find: She wears on her head the small flat hood, à la mode de Bretagne, which was called the cape Bretonne.^[20]  --Lambiam 10:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

September 15

Mad dogs and Englishmen...

... go out in the mid-day sun, as we are told. Our article says "The saying "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun" is often asserted to have been coined by Rudyard Kipling but no precise source is ever cited". The song came out in 1931. In the 1911 short story "Amid the Trees" by Francis Xavier we read "only an Englishman or a dog walks in the mid-day sun, runs the proverb". So, are there any earlier incarnations of the proverb? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

In Reminiscences of the Late Thomas Barker, an 1862 paper by Frederick Shum, we have mention of "the Italian saying that 'none but Englishmen and dogs would be seen abroad in the mid-day sun'." In a para called "An Italian Midday" in the 19 May 1838 issue of The New-Yorker (not that one) there seems to be an allusion to the same saying: "There is something to an English eye very singular in the appearance of a southern city at these hours. The closed shops, the deserted streets, closed and deserted under the very mid-day sun, make it look like a city of the dead. Dogs and Englishmen, they say, are alone stirring." --Antiquary (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

And the website Phrase Finder traces it back to Charles Burney, who in 1770 wrote, "He certainly over-heated himself at Venice by walking at a season when it is said that only Dogs and Englishmen are seen out of doors at noon, all else lie down in the middle of the day." --Antiquary (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)