Talk:Abraham of Angamaly

Image included

the reason for removing the picture was stated as "removing the picture because east syrian bishops don't hold a crosier. This is a fake picture" fisrt of all what do you expect in a painting/ icon of a sixteenth century bishop ? what is the criteria for categorizing a Painting as "FAKE" ? again i would like to know what is the basis of this statement "east Syrian bishops don't hold a crosier".

Need to clarification in this edit

Predecessor removed beacuse mar Abraham was Nestorian and Joseph Sulaqa was Caldean :both are not related-factual error

again the chaldean (catholic fraction of church of the east was formed around 1550). in that sense even joseph sulaqa was a Nestorian before that period , also in his first attempt mar abraham was detained in Goa and send back to Iraq. where he met the Chaldear Patriarch of Balilon Mar Abdisho it was Mar Abdisho who send Abraham to Rome. if this is not enough in Rome he was concerted as a Bishop AGAIN by the patriarch of Venice. realizing that Mar Abraham went to the Chaldean fraction, The East Syrian (nestorian patriarch) send another bishop to compete with Abraham "Mar Simon".

[From the Oxus River to the Chinese Shores: Studies on East Syriac edited by Li Tang, Dietmar W. Winkler page 331 or Michel Geddes]

Does the "Mar" mean "martyr"?

Why has an meaning behind the name "Mar" been left out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.228.65 (talk) 00:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

All questions are addressed here related to sources

Those who want to edit the page should provide historical sources not ideologies.

September 2021

@Analyst2000: provide sources before adding controversial and dubious content. Metropolitan Abraham was bishop of the Church of the East. He was the bishop of India. Meanwhile, Archbishop Francisco Rodriguez was the bishop and later the archbishop of the Padroado Latin Catholic Archdiocese of Cranganore. Both are different entities.Br Ibrahim john (talk) 13:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC) @Br Ibrahim john: For which part you need sources, brother? Are you Surayi brother? I shall add one by one and will clarify all your confusion. Your words: "Francisco Ros is the Archbishop of Latin Archdiocese of Cranganore. Abraham was Metropolitan of the India Metropolitanate of the Church of the East. Don't try to mix oil with water." Who were the faithful of the so-called Latin Archdiocese of Cranganore? When was it erected? What is to do with Angamaly? What happened to Angamaly in 1559? From 1559-1653 who were the bishops of Angmaly-Cranganore? Who were the faithful of Cranganore? Latins according to you? Does the Cranganore diocese exist now? Why? When the Surayi church was establised in India? Do you know that? Why did Mar Abraham, who came first from the Church of the East, went to the Catholic Chaldean patriarch and became a Catholic metropolitan? Do you know the reason? and sources? You need sources sincerely? Why Mar Abraham was consecrated again in Catholic rite in Venice and returned to Angamaly? Why Ros governed from Angamaly for 5 years, the see of Mar Abraham? Why Ros conducted Second Synod of Angamaly in 1603? Answer these brother.

Tell me one by one your problems. I shall add sources to each of your problem and you will be scientifically very happy and water will be taken out of oil. Begin asking here brother.

• India is a Metropolitanate of the Church of the East. It was established in the Seventh century by Patriarch Ishoyahb III. It was under the Patriarchal Province of Seleucia-Ctesiphon
• Archdiocese of Cranganore is a the later name of the Roman Catholic Latin Diocese of Angamaly created in 1599 in the Synod of Diamper. It was created by Alexis Menesis and was under the Primatal See of Goa.
• Both the entities are different.
• The Syro-Malabar Catholic Major Archeparchy of Ernakulam-Angamaly also governs the same people. But it is a separate entity too.
• Just because they governed the same people, the entities doesn't mix up. For instance, the successor of Abraham of Angamaly was Mar Shemon and then Mar Gabriel. Meanwhile, Francisco Rodriguez is the pioneer incumbent of the Archdiocese of Cranganore. These are coinciding but not the same. All these three are different entities. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Br Ibrahim john:

• India is a Metropolitanate of the Church of the East. It was established in the Seventh century by Patriarch Ishoyahb III. It was under the Patriarchal Province of Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

O.K All the figting brothers accept this. So what?

• You ignorance and politics I shall explain to the public. Archdiocese of Cranganore is a the later name of the Roman Catholic Latin Diocese of Angamaly created in 1599 in the Synod of Diamper. It was created by Alexis Menesis and was under the Primatal See of Goa

Foolishness: Archdiocese of Cranganorewas not created by Alexis Menesis. Menezes was an archbishop of the Catholic Church. Archbishops cannot create dioceses. Even in your Suyrayi church (Trichur), archbishops cannot create dioceses. You are under your patriarch (Nestorian). Your church in India is only a metropolitan see of the Nestorian church. Here the pope raised Angamaly to an archbishoprik in 1609 changing the see to Cranganore. (History is not ideology and family glorification. Your history is only good for fools who do not read and write)

• Both the entities are same. After Coonan Cross the same entity was divided into two, giving birth to the Orthodox Church. (Then your church was not there in India. You were part of the old party). Syro Malabar church was made only in 20th century. You were their brothers. Your church (surayi) also was created in 20th century, in an unfortunate situation. That is why your church is still known as "Syro Chaldean Church of the Orient". Do not mix up oil with water.
• We are not speaking about today. This is a history of 16th century in which all the Thomas Christians were same the entity. Are you acting fool?
• Your Surayi church history can be given to your family students. The History is far ahead in our time. Mar Simon was the bitterest enemy of Mar Abraham. You know why? You know why Mar Simon died in Portugual?

@Br Ibrahim john: Still if you want to promote fundamentalism and Talibanism here and want to create your Surayi history, play with it in your home, not with wikipedia for the public. Because our time is much digital and people are not fool. If you are still narrow minded, you can remove all the Roman sources from this page to make it pure Surayi and go to Iraq with your new terrorist history.

Hey mind your business. I am not any kind of Surayi or any other and do not try to accuse others with this sort of allegations. I have told you why all these are different.

Now let me clarify further.

Your argument-->

//Here the pope raised Angamaly to an archbishoprik in 1609 changing the see to Cranganore.//

Then answer me, from which entity was this Archdiocese of Cranganore 'raised'? Which was the Diocese of Angamaly mentioned in the acts of the Synod of Diamper? Are you arguing that the India Province of the Church of the East became Roman Catholic all of sudden? How can an entity change? Then who were Mar Shemon and Mar Gabriel! They governed Kerala Saint Thomas Christians, and they weren't Romans. Now again, don't try to mix oil with water. Don't miserably mix the Latin Archdiocese of Cranganore and the India Province of the Church of the East. Br Ibrahim john (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2021 (UTC)