Talk:Persian Gulf

Just Persian Gulf

I'd like to ask to some body, could you change the name of Gulf of Mexico? could you change the name of Guantanamo Gulf or ....so you could't change Persian Gulf's name by spending money or political games!!! Please be calm and think about what are you doing! this is just wasting your time and money.

I don't know why some users here are enjoying the ignoring and suppressing of information! Why some users here like to play a game against history and real life just for politcial sake of eliminating other's POV and culture?! Is it really good to keep supressing and offending other's rights in practicing their own culture in their own language? If any other nationas, organizations and bodies are already using the terms like something you don't "like", it will not be bad as naming sahred territories is not private right of one nation! If you brought a non-logical example for the Gulf of Mexico, I would like you to have more reasonable comparison like the English Channel/La Manche, or Sea of Japan name that will be better example for shared territories among nations of different cultures. I don't know when this big dispute will settle down and some users will respect other's POV and their cultural rights, besides History to reach a neutral point of view. I don't want to see the day when I'll believe that there is a racial/cultural enmity behind this argument Ralhazzaa 08:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

To ip user, judging from your recent edit history, I'd say you should calm down and think about what you are doing here! It's just a waste of your time... (to vandalize pages about ethnic groups you happen to be biased against) Asabbagh 09:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Ralhazzaa - The Gulf of Mexico isn't a good example. A good example however is the English Channel/La Manche. The French call it La Mache, but the English speaking world (and a majority of other languages) call it The English Channel. Fair enough! But my question to Ralhazza and others is why is there an attempt to change the name of the Gulf to the Arabian Gulf in English/French/German/Japanese/Chinese (amongst others) when those countries already call it the Persian Gulf in their own language? The Arabian Gulf in Arabic is fine, but why attempt to change it in other languages when there already is an equivalent? The French don't attempt to have English/German/Japanese/Chinese speakers switch to "The Manche". Why are Arabs trying to do this for the Arabian Gulf? Why not just use the "Persian" Gulf when referring to the Gulf in other languages other than Arabic when the other languages already call it the Persian Gulf?

User:Ralhazzaa, what is your motivation for editing Wikipedia? Please stop shouting slogans and calling others who resist a U.N. certified name against a name that Gamal Abdoll Naser invented 40 years ago for his Pan-Arabism agendas) racist!

if you want to change this article, you have only one way: "reading the comments and resources of the users who oppose your POV (e.g. Alidoostzadeh) and trying to refute them or even give better sources." In this case you must bring arabic sources that says "Arabic Gulf" in their context before Gamal. Brother!, If you think there of course exist some sources, why not bringing it here? (Please read the talk page archive, and do not try to forge any sources, because we can verify them)

I think, you have not even read the comments of the users who has a different POV than you! This attitude bring you no where. Believe me, there is no racist or any hidden schemes is from this part (I don't know the motive of both the IP user or even you for this kind of debates!, but I am sure of myself and Ali). unless you bring a verifiable sources regarding your claims, you just get reverted and non of the admins of WP can do anything for you. من الله توفيق-Pejman47 16:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

User Ralhazza made a statement about Pliny and then it was cleared up and Pliny uses Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf for the Red Sea. I am glad that argument is not being repeated. The fact is this is the English wikipedia and fortunately the overwhelming majority of English sources use the historical name. [1].

As recognized by the United States Board on Geographic names, the name of the body of water that lies between Iran and the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council is the Persian Gulf. For political reasons, Arabs often refer to it as the Arab or Arabian Gulf (The Persian Gulf at the Millennium: Essays in Politics, Economy, Security, and Religion edited by Gary G. Sick, Lawrence G. Potter, pg 8).

"The Arab-Iranian nomenclatural controversy over the Gulf, which was so bitter in the late 50s and early 60s, was a by-product of the late President Nasser of Egypt's brand of Arab nationalism ... 'Arabian Gulf' is in fact a recent Arab appellation for that body of water..." ( Eilts, Hermann F. "Security Considerations in the Persian Gulf." International Security :Vol. 5, No. 2. (Autumn, 1980), pp. 79-113. ). والله سمیع العلیم--alidoostzadeh 16:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

User Pejman, do you think a question like "what is your motivation for editing Wikipedia" is something necessary within your concerns to know personal things about me through this talk page? I don't think it is important for you to ask such funny question in this talk page. You are highly recommended to read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and stop personalizing the discussion. Anyway, I'll be civil enough and inform everyone here that I want to improve this article by showing all available facts and other's POV to reach a neutral point of view, while many other users keep supressing such improvement and turning this talk page to a "forum"! If other's POV was not "beautiful" enough for others, then it is not a problem as we are in WP but not in a politically-oriented school for immature students. If you criticize Wikipedia:Etiquette and Wikipedia:Wiki spirit of showing and asking for good & peaceful behavior -as I did- and call it "slogans" and "shouting", then it is not really beneficial to talk with you here before you change you langage, be cool and re-read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, for special Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:No angry mastodons and realize what does a neutral point of view means. Stop directing this talk to be politcla and personal attacks is not good at all. As you and user alidoostzadeh sure of yourselves, then u shouldn't attack others who are not of your side and try to be cool and neutral. A final word regarding someone's "analysis" for Pliny's discription for Abadan as locating in Greece by considering Karun's River as a Greek island! This is apparentely called: misinterpreting, and obviously not for the sake of improving this discussion by keep falsifying historical ancient references, as it has been already done by you for other ancient maps. If some users here can't stop their one-sided manipulation of sources then it is wasting of time for this discussion and maybe the main article(s) we are discussing will be always tagged by WP admins as "disputed" and its info disclaimed by WP as it is now due to info politicalization and manipulation. I'm not going to remention our POV as it has been described already but you, the other side, still turning your head and ignore comprehensive history of this area. Ralhazzaa 12:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Pliny was clear enough when he describes Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf and he says Arabia Felix (basically Saudia Arabia) lies between Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf. Again why are you ignoring clear references to Persian Gulf in Pliny and misinterpreting him. There is no dispute but only your mis-reading of Pliny. It is becoming very clear that you are not interested in unbiased view. I think for all readers is clear. Pliny did not have sattelite map back then. Elaues is a Greek city in Aegean. Thus between Tigris and Elaues he means red sea and not Persian Gulf as both of these are to the left of the Persian Gulf. Note Tigris is to the Left of Persian Gulf and not to its Right. Please read it again until you understand this point. [[2]]. Note it says: The one which lies to east is called PERSIAN GULF, and is two thousand five hundred miles in circumference, according to Erasthenes. Opposite to it lies Arabia, the length of which is fifteen hundred miles. On the other side again, Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf'. I believe that is very clear. Now again from the link you brought: By descending the Indus, and going up the Persian Gulf. [3]. Excerpt from Natural History, Book VI – Chapter: The Persian and the Arabian Gulfs (Refer to Book VI. 109 - 111 in Loeb edition..)[4]. Again another except: We learn from Ephorus, as well as Eudoxus and Timosthenes, tht there are great numbers of islands scattered all over this sea; Clitarchus says that king Alexander was informed of an island so rich that the inhabitants gave a talent of gold for a horse, and of another* upon which there was found a sacred mountain, shaded with a grove, the trees of which emitted odours of wondrous sweetness; this last was situate over against the Persian Gulf. Note Pliny did not have a sattelite map and the world might have looked different to him. But he is following the correct Greek tradition (Strabo too) of calling Persian Gulf by Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf as red sea. He is saying Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf on one side and Persian Gulf on the other.--alidoostzadeh 01:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

to bring sources for your claims, just complaining about it, don't serve you. And during a debate about a different article, an adim told me this: "We do not balance articles based the personal opinions of pro and con factions amongst editors. A balanced article is one that presents what reliable published sources have said about a subject. We do not go around finding tidbits of information here and there and synthesize these to make a point that has not been published.", I hope you will get the point. Good luck--Pejman47 23:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

To user Alidoostzadeh, it looks that you are using dual standards in reading and/or referring to referrences! What if Pliny said that Arabian Gulf is in between "Egyptian" Sea and Caspian Sea as in here [5]? Do u think they need satellites to say so??!! So, calm down and leave Pliny as he is apparently was tending to mention the Arabian (Persian) Gulf as Arabian. Moreover, Elaues is not a Greek city (or island as u said before, but now become a city!). It is Karoun River that was mentioned by Pliny the Younger. Charax is nothing in Greece as you "may" read here. I am giving you a free gift to read Excerpts from 'Natural History' by Pliny [6]. This is to stop falsifying human heritage! It is over that you falsified dozens of historical maps describing Arbian/Elqateef/Basrah Gulf and supressing all other resourses citing Arabian/Elqateef/Basrah Gulf besides Persian.. Did we supressed any saying of it is also called "Persian Gulf"? now u want to mislead us by intentional misinterpreting of Pliny's historical book that saying apparently Arabian Gulf (u even refuse the idea that it "could be" a synonym for Persian Gulf!). Please stop your intentional misinterpreting and continous falsifying ancinet works as it is not good for solving this dispute here. One more thing, double standards is not working in WP. If u refuse a Roman book by claiming "Author has no satellite map at that time" then it is not good for you to cite it again just partially when it says your POV.. even not to keep citing artless works like "Dr. Cyrus X" or propagandise website set by Iranians bigots want to oscillate the dispute but not to solve it! Classic books and maps are classic becuase they don't have satellites then if u don't like it coz it is not showing ur POV, don't falsify it as u always do with ancient works!!.. and let's throw away all the maps & Geography books before "Satellite Era"..File:Smiley-Dancing.gif Best Regards.. Ralhazzaa

I think you need to stop labeling and read Pliny instead of putting words in his mouth. He is very very clear. The one which lies to east is called PERSIAN GULF, and is two thousand five hundred miles in circumference, according to Erasthenes. Opposite to it lies Arabia, the length of which is fifteen hundred miles. On the other side again, Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf'. . I do not think it can be cleaer than that. Read it again until you digest. And no they are not the same to Pliny since he clearly distinguishes them even from your own link and that is why he has a Chapter on Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf clearly meaning they are different. I do not think Pliny can get clearer than this[7]. Note it is not synonmous when he is using it if you look at it clearly. As per Charax, there is Charax island in Greece [8]. Note again he has a chapter in the same link you gave:The Persian and the Arabian Gulfs and by the quote I brought it is clear Arabian Gulf is not the Persian Gulf. Your quote is unclear but Pliny is clear:The one which lies to east is called PERSIAN GULF, and is two thousand five hundred miles in circumference, according to Erasthenes. Opposite to it lies Arabia, the length of which is fifteen hundred miles. On the other side again, Arabia is bounded by Arabian Gulf. It doesn't get clearer than this. --alidoostzadeh 00:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

it looks a monologue, not dialogue! Why should I talk to myself too much?!... Anyway, dozens of ancient maps, references, documents and encyclopedias are indicating other naming for this sea. One of the UN's official languages, 300 million Arabic speaking people, a huge number of organizations & institutions & companies using a term other than the one mentioned "solely" for this sea. These names are: Arabian Gulf, Elqateef Gulf, Basrah Gulf besides "Persian Gulf" in many languages (Arabic, English, French, Latine, Turkish,...) has been used since cenutries. These are enough to solve this dispute and get rid off all political POVs making all this mess in the article. Useless discussions intend to rediscover America now is wasting of time. Facts can't be supressed by radical bigot mind of any side. WP admins monitoring this talk should close this mess of talk as it is going more to be like trolling sometimes lack sufficient level of Talk Standards. I am not going to continue this monologue all over my life here.. this dispute should be finished by indicating all POVs and available references. Politicizing info here is not acceptable at all, from both sides. WP cites all significant info... so what about names used by ~half a billion people now and used over centuries? I need an answer from WP admins, with regrads. Ralhazzaa 08:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like someone else responded to you. We are discussing English language here. The name Persian Gulf is the oldest name. Arabian Gulf is a product of the last 60 years. And such facts as you noticed can be suppressed by radical bigot minds (namely Nasser and Saddam). You can't find a single Arabic source that uses Arabian Gulf and the fact is classical Arabic sources have never mentioned Arabian Gulf. The only thing I can propose is that for the intro we can have the classical Arabic name, mentioning (classical Arabic: خلیج فارس and then modern Arabic in parts of the Arab World: خلیج عربی). We can not deny the historic facts of Araic sources. As per Pliny I think he was clear. All available references are there..I have brought 300+ classic references. And also a 30+ Arabic references. The name Arabian Gulf had no currency in Arabic countries until 50-60 years ago and the common name in the English speaking world is Persian. --alidoostzadeh 01:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ralhazza - It's funny that when shown that your "facts" to be wrong, people speak in monologues. Anyway, yes: The Persian Gulf has been called the Elqateef Gulf and the Basrah Gulf but usually always with Persian Gulf in parenthesizes under it. The only time the name Arabian Gulf was used in historic maps instead of the Persian Gulf has been in maps with errors (as in from the website www.arabiangulfmaps.com). Maps these days have errors as did maps in the past! Clinging to errors on maps as truths when textual proof says otherwise isn't an argument. This is not some fantasy, as the texts which the maps are derived from actually point to his fact. Furthermore, the sources are not from some anti-Arab Iranian (as you'd like to think they are), but neutral non-Iranian scholars. Please refer to here: http://www.azargoshnasp.net/PersianGulf/PersianGulfresponsetositeA.htm for more information. Also, please read the page in full, along with the documented pdf files from secondary sources on the above mentioned website before you comment again.

Finally, let's not forget that it wasn't Iranians who started this debate, but the Arabic people in the 1960s. Why can't a Gulf be called the Persian Gulf and be shared amongst Arabic and Iranian peoples? Why is there a stealth attempt by Arabic people to change the name to the Arabian Gulf today, rather than going through official channels like the United Nations? Persians and Arabs have so much shared history and this kind of debate would lead to anti-Persian and anti-Arab sentiments in their respective countries. Iranians respect the names Gulf of Oman and Arabian Sea, so why can't Arabic people do the same for the Persian Gulf?

Neutrality tag

This is for WP admins regarding the Neutrality tag:

Neutrality tag has been used due to the fact that other POV of Arabs side has been always suppressed, that is: Arabic name for this sea in Arabic is Al Khaleej Al Arabi الخليج العربي but not Al Faresi. Other old names has been used in Arabic for this water body like: Khaleej Al Basra, Khaleej Elqateef, besides to Khaleej el Ajam (Persians). The recent and dominate name for it in Arabic language is the Arabian Gulf as it could be found in the UN records (in Arabic) besides to all Arabic records of organizations (working out of Iran) and governments of all Arab states, and used by ~300 million Arabic speakers. Naming dispute has been ascribed to Nasser (20th century) while dozens of ancient maps and references using other name for it (Arabian Gulf, Elqateef, Basra) has been clearly suppressed by some Iranian users here, which is clear bias for this page in info within. Thus, neutrality tag has been used. Hope discussion can reach a middle point sooner to show up all POVs and reach a NPOV using all refs from all sides. For WP admins, you can read POV of other side (that has been always suppressed here) in the previous talks and comments within this talk page. Ralhazzaa 10:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Arabian Gulf is a new nomeclature as has been shown by Western reference. We can say Old Arabic name (this is the oldest Arabic name): بحر فارس and new Arabic name: خلیج عربی. I have already brought a list of 300+ authors who have used Persian Gulf. There is no textual evidence for Arabian Gulf and few maps in the same book have Persian Gulf and use Persian Gulf in their text and their newer editions use Persian Gulf only. No ancientg Greek maps or reference uses Arabian Gulf as you were shown by Pliny who uses Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf for the read. Couple (just three four authors) of european maps that have Arabian Gulf have Persian Gulf in the same book and use Persian Gulf in the text and their newer editions use Persian Gulf and there is no textual evidence for Arabian Gulf and you can't make OR.The Persian Gulf is the main name in the English language [9]> It has been used by Pliny while Arabian Gulf in ancient European maps refers to the red sea and not Persian Gulf. Also 300 million Arab speakers do not use the name you claim. I know for a fact that many Iraqis do not use it. And no your POV has not been suppressed anywhere specially in the talk page. As recognized by the United States Board on Geographic names, the name of the body of water that lies between Iran and the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council is the Persian Gulf. For political reasons, Arabs often refer to it as the Arab or Arabian Gulf (The Persian Gulf at the Millennium: Essays in Politics, Economy, Security, and Religion edited by Gary G. Sick, Lawrence G. Potter, pg 8). The Arab-Iranian nomenclatural controversy over the Gulf, which was so bitter in the late 50s and early 60s, was a by-product of the late President Nasser of Egypt's brand of Arab nationalism ... 'Arabian Gulf' is in fact a recent Arab appellation for that body of water...( Eilts, Hermann F. "Security Considerations in the Persian Gulf." International Security :Vol. 5, No. 2. (Autumn, 1980), pp. 79-113. ) --alidoostzadeh 11:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

cool down, alidoostzadeh! this comment was'nt part of the discussion about the info and refs in this page, neither was a talk with you! It was an answer for WP admins asked why the neutrality tag has been used here. I'm not going to repeat all the long talk with you and your mates as it looks useless and you always go back to the first square. Discussion in the talk page with some users here is like a waste of our time and focus to enhance this page. It is clear that most info in this page have been politicized toward Iranian POV and suppressing Arabian POV -as the history of edits and addings by Arab editors has been suppressed always by you and your colleagues. We, all Arab editors here, know other facts than yours and provided tons of refs (always falsified by you.. this is normal as u r on the other side)! So, as these fatcs have been always reverted by you and your mates (of Iranian POV), info in this page is highly biased toward one extreme geopolitical direction and far away from neutrality. Salam Ralhazzaa 12:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

و علیکم السلامThere is no room for Arab or Iranian POV. We just bring materials from reliable scholars and not OR. Simple as that. In the English world it is Persian Gulf. And stop accusing others of falsification when you can not answer. Anyways the issue was with the Arabic name. Before Nasser, you will not find خلیج عربی in the Arab world. Currently many Shi'ite Muslims who are not affected by the bathist or pan-arabist nationalism do not use خلیج عربی either. But my proposal was to split the Arabic name into two. One classical name and one the more modern name. You did not respond. --alidoostzadeh 18:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

New proposal

What do you all think of this proposed lead:

The Persian Gulf (Template:PerB - Khalīj-e Fārs; in Classical Arabic: بحر الفارس Bahr al-Fārs, in Modern Arabic: Template:Rtl-lang al-Khalīj al-Arabi or al-Khalīj al-Fārisī)

--Mardavich 19:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support: I think it is definitely better than what is currently present. Obviously it has been argued how in "modern Arabic" it is generally only called "الخليج العربي", but I support your proposal as it is a step in the right direction. Asabbagh 07:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support, with the proviso that there is an English translation, eg Arabian Gulf or Persian Gulf, since الخليج العربي is not an Arabic translation of خليج فارس or "Persian Gulf" but an alternative Arabic name for the waterbody.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 16:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support, with the proviso that the term "Arabian Gulf" be mentioned as a "translation" of the Arabic name. Leave the "alternative" name bit to the later part of the article.
• Glad to see good proposal like this one by Mardavich! I would support the Arabic name الخليج العربي (translit. Al Khaleej Al Arabi) as a true translation for the name of this water body. Hence I would suggest putting all old names: خليج العجم، خليج الفرس، خليج القطيف، خليج البصرة، خليج البحرين as a set of old names used in Arabic language, and old names used by other languages; Lower Sea in ancient Assyrian, Sinus Persicus, Sinus Arabicus, Sinus Elqateef... in Latin, etc. in te section of Etymology and the section of Name Dispute, but not in the heading of the article as if we want to mention what it was called only in Arabic lang since it has started, then it is not going to be logical heading! Then we should also say what it has been called in Aramic, Babylonian, Latin, French, English, Turkish, Persian since it has been started as languages... which is not so important in the heading. We can enhance the article in the right section; Etymology and Naming Dispute. I start to feel that we are about to solve this big pain.. we are about to solve it systematically and in more informative way if we kept common names in the heading and moved all old names to its proper sections. I am not denying here that this sea has been called many names in Arabic and/or other languages that is not only like الخليج العربي.. no.. at all.. and I definitly believe that Arabic-speaking media settled in (or related to) Iran is using the term الخليج الفارسي (which is not prob for me as it is their own believings).. 'm just trying to adapt the proposal in better organized and methodological way. Later we discuss -in same cool head- other sections one by one. Salam.. Ralhazzaa 18:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

In response to some comments came later, I'm not opposing this proposal enither cricizing the English name as Persian Gulf now, only point to move classical names in all languages to its proper section. Used name in Arabic is know as الخليج العربي as you can find in any recent document, but no one can find Arabic-written document issued by UN, Arab state, even school book saying (in Arabic) it is الخليج الفارسي unless it is describing historical event or naming dispute issue. If any historical info needed to be mentioned for names in classical languages (Arabic, Latin, Aramic, Assyrian... etc.), it is better to be in the historical section of this page.Ralhazzaa 06:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• comment the common name in English is Persian Gulf as it has been in Western literature 2000 years ago. I will have to think about Mardavich's proposal. --alidoostzadeh 22:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support as suggested: intresting idea which covers both parts of debate and I hope to make it more NPOV. I am open to hear potential reject supporters' comment too. For now I support it.Farmanesh 03:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support sounds very sensible to me. By the way, I've made some slight modifications to your proposed lead, in the Modern Arabic specifically. Hopefully, this will end this aching dispute. —Anas ^talk? 09:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well it's been a while, and I think consensus has been reached for this new lead. Time to add it in? Asabbagh 09:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't heard any response regarding my suggestions above. Should we enlist all valid & invalid names in all languages in the heading of this article or move the historical names to the section of Etymology and Naming Dispute, separately. Moreover, the point of naming it الخليج الفارسي -in modern Arabic- is inavailable in any Arab modern state(s). Kind regards for all Ralhazzaa 16:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I was curious about this too. I think the lead by Mardavich is best, and that's what this vote was about Ralhazzaa. Your suggestion is interesting, but wasn't debated. And الخليج الفارسي, I'm sure is available in some modern Arab states. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.2.198.2 (talk) 12:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Then let's work together to find refs for name of this place in Arabic, adapted officially in a modern Arab state, or by an Arab geographical society or even one Arabic languege regulator academy. References of good weight will make it better accepted by all. Ralhazzaa 16:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The main name in classical arabic has been Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf was never used by any Arabic source until 1960. I think we should mention this as a footnote for the intro proposed by Mardavich: (Arabian Gulf was never used by Arabs until 1960). This way I would agree with the consensus above.. but since it is a consensus for now I think Mardavich's version is good without this footnote. But if it becomes necessary, it should be there. --alidoostzadeh 21:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems there is consensus on Mardavich's proposal which makes article NPOV. Why we are waiting? Lets make the change and take Nutrality tag out.Farmanesh 23:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Done and done. --Mardavich 01:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems that my suggestions have been ignored somehow! Is "classical" names should be in the intro or in the Etymology or Naming Dispute sections, logically? Also, "modern" name in Arabic for this sea has nothing to do with الخليج الفارسي! As said repeatedily by others, for special alidoostzadeh, modern name is الخليج العربي in "modern" Arabic... the UN, which is modern organization after WWII, is using one term for it.. "modern" Arabic geographical societies is using one name for it.. "modern" Arab states is adapting one official name for it... the article itself in its sub-sections says this; how "modern" Arab states deal with the naming issue and what they are adapting for official use. Should we consider all of this or ignor it? Who can represent Arabic language? Arabs or others? In the recent format of the article, I still reserve my rights to say it is not approaching too much neutrality. Ralhazzaa 09:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

As long as Iraqi MP's are using it.. (and I know some shi'ite Iraqi MP's have used it in al-alam interviews) , that is good enough. I do not like the current version either since I want a direct footnote next to the arabic name explaining that there is not a single source in Arabic that calls it Arabian Gulf in 1960. Actually I want it in paranthesis in the introduction with bolded text next to the name, but I will respect the consensus of users. So if you do not like the consensus neither do I, but if you attempt to change it, I will also and since what I just said is sourced, it can easily be put in paranthesis in bold in the introduction. Note a consensus means that no one gets 100% what they want.. but when a consensus is reached, people should respect it. Also it is not about how modern Arabic states deal with the issue. Arabian Gulf has only been used for 40 years in Arab states (It's been like 6 months and you guys did not bring a single proof from any Arabic text for such a name simply because it does not exist), Persian Gulf for much longer, at least 1400 years and it is the oldest name for the water in Arabic. Also Persians have contributed grealy to Arabic language and literature (Hallaj, Abu Nuwas, Ibn Sabaywah...and it would fill up the whole space if I mention them). و السلام .--alidoostzadeh 13:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well! we shouldn't remind that Al-Alam TV is Iranian! can anyone tell me who is this MP or give's any clear source for what he/they are saying? I think we can't relay on Al-Alalm TV to say it is one resource of "modern" Arabic terminology! For "modern" terms in Arabic, we should check with native Arabic academies or geographical societies [10], [11], or at least one of the deluge Arabic "original" media but not with the Iranian Al-Alalm TV! No one is denying that this sea is has been called in "classical" Arabic as الخليج الفارسي or خليج العجم (among many other varying names over the history), but it is really not true that it is still called like this now! I'm native Arab and know better what is going in the Arab World and how we use our language! Let's not kill this proposal and stay cool & unbiased when talk. All the best Ralhazzaa 03:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Salam I am cool and unbiased and I agree everyone should be. We have Arab officials in Iran. They are native Arab speakers just like there are native Persians in Bahrain, UAE and Iraq. Unlike many of the Arabs in the Arab world who are Mu'arrabs (like lebanon or egypt), the Arab speakers in Iran have kept their tribal designations and come from Arab tribes like Banu Tamim... Like Admiral Shamkhani for example (use google arabic to search for his name) who is one of the highest officials and a native Arab of Iran. He uses Persian Gulf in interviews with Arab television like Al-Jazeera. So no one has a a monopoly on the Arab speaking people of the world or even media and he is as good as native Arab as any other native Arab speaker. Probably more so given the tribal designations used by Arabs in Iran. Ali. سلام

Everyone know very clearly that it banned in Iran to use another term for Persian Gulf like Arabian Gulf or الخليج العربي, so how can Ali Shamkhani or whoever of Arab origin to say so? I heard once that people in Al-Ahwaz are abused for talking in Arabic, their mother tounge! Anyway, here are some resources for Iranians of Arab origin living out of Iran, and away from any force of law or pressure, using the term of الخليج العربي in their mother language, Arabic! [12], [13], [14], [15]. For this point, let's avoid an Iraqi MP lived 80% of his life in Iran and get his Iraqi passport last year, and neglect Ahwazi over-reactions for Iran policy.. etc and take in consideration what is real and used, not the irregular and manipulated. Till then, I'm still not accepting the naming of الخليج الفارسي in "modern" Arabic as it is not true. Ralhazzaa 12:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually Arabic is thought as mandatory throughout Iran so your sites publish bogus report. The abuse of Iranians in Arab countries is much worst and everyone knows how Saddam deported Iranians, killed shi'ites or how the Arab countries treat their shi'ite minorities (sometimes majorities like in the case of Bahrain). Or the abuse of Shi'ite Muslims in Saudi Arabia[16]. You can not say lets avoid Iraqi MP or Shamkhani. You wanted native Arab officials and you got some. I am sorry they are not good enough for you, but you have no execuse to dismiss them by your original research and constant execuses. You have to understand in a compromise no one gets what they want 100%. Those sites of yours are a few separatist non-official sites (mainly backed previously by Saddam's regime) and they do not represent Iran's arab minority. I can indeed bring some Iranian Arabs if necessary and they will tell you Khalij-e-Fars. You wanted an Arab official and I gave you two. Persian Gulf is banned in the UAE , so by your argument we do not know what Arab officials there would have called it. Mr. Shamkhani is not forced to use Khalij-e-Fars and he fought in the Iran-Iraq war and is very proud to be both Iranian and of Arab heritage. I am removing your disputed tag, but if you put it back, it will go the way before Mardavich. This time though from (1960's) or (recently forged from 1960's) will go in the paranthesis of the begining and will mention that Khalij-e-Fars was the oldest name in Arabic texts and the most common in Arabic until 1960. All this should go in the intro. You can't dismiss more than 1400 years of Arabic texts for 40 years of Arabic text made by nationalists whose end results where failures like Saddam. The ratio is in our favor (4 to 140) (approximately 97% in terms of years). I will put historically mainly Khail-j-e-Fars but due to Arab nationalism, the term Arabian Gulf was forged in the 1960s) in the paranthesis and has no historical basis. Because it looks like you do not respect the consensus of users and have no respect for the general consensus worked out by Arab and Iranian users. I reluclantly did not accept or support it, I do respect it due to consensus of users. Compormise was meant to end the edit-war and make a solution for both sides, if you are not accepting it, then the compormise is off. You made an execuse that there is not a single Arab official and I gave you two. It is not my fault if you do not like these native Arab officials. They are ultimately native officials. If you do not like a compromise that users agreed upon, then we have to restore the original wording before that compromise until a new compromise is reached. Mardavich's compromise was very generous considering the fact that historical manipulation and revisionism due to nationalism was not mentioned in the intro. You can't have your cake and eat it too. No one leaves 100% happy in a compromise, that is the way compromises work.--alidoostzadeh 14:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ahwazi Arabs call their land Al-Ahwaz and Arabistan not "Khuzestan" and they say Arabian Gulf. It is a fact. Shamkhani won't say anything to offend the regime because he is a part of the regime and so is Al-Alam TV. It is true that Arabic is not allowed as a method of educational instruction in Al-Ahwaz. Ahwazi Arabs are not allowed to be educated in Arabic, they are educated in Farsi. This is a fact that is accepted by the UN human rights observers, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 16:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all you are not spokeman for Arabs of Khuzestan since you are not Iranian anyway. Neither are any of those fringe one man one website groups. It was shown in the pourpirar page that you can't speak a word of Farsi, so you are a sunni Iraqi, but the pan-arabist dream ended with Saddam. Arabs of Khuzestan (who are minority actually relative to Lurs/Persians in Khuzestan), fought for Iran during the Iran-Iraq and if they were thinking what you are claiming, this would not have been so and Saddam would have had an easier time in Khuzestan. You are not even Iranian yourself and you are an Iraqi, so please do not be a spokeman (who elected you?). Unlike Sunni Arabs who are going around and making genocides (fortunately the pan-arabist dream ended with the beheading os Saddam but he comitted genocides against shi'ites,turkomens,kurds), making genocides in Sudan (slavery at this age is deplorable) or in Iraq (blowing up mosques) or beheading innocent people (Afghanistan, Daniel Pearl), causing civil wars, ramming planes into buildings, blowing up shrines because of their sect, killing innocent civilians....and finally distorting historical names that are even in Hadeeth's of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

As the holy Quran says: اَلاعَرْابُ اَشدَّ كُفراً وَ نفاقاً وَ اَجْدَرُ اَلاَّ يّعْلَمُوا حُدُودَ ما اَنزَْلَ اللهُ»

So you want to talk about human rights? Arabic is thought throughout Iran as a mandatory subject from the earliest age till 12th grade. This should not be the case for all Iranians (instead Kurdish for Kurds, Azeri for Azeris should be thought instead of Arabic..), but it is. I even have the Arabic texbooks. As per UN human rights and amnesty, they get reports from the so called one man websites and they publish it, and they do not confirm anything. Those reports are fed by one man websites backed by foreign regimes and then they base their reports on it. It is not verifiable since they have not visited Iran and those reports mention they get their information from such fringe groups. So it has no reliability. Where-as the genocides comitted by Saddam or what is happening in Sudan or Saudi Arabia's treatment of its shi'ite minorities is verifiable. So everyone in Iran has mandatory Arabic language lessons. And yes Persian is the official language, since that how it was in 1906 and is the medium of education. But Arabic language is a mandatory subject, thought for almost 12 years, which everyone learns, it is not banned and there are Arabic tevelisions like Al-Alam, Arabic newspapers like Al-Wafagh and etc. It doesn't matter if Shamkhani is part of the regime. He is an Arab official. It doesn't matter if the Iraqi Arab leader is part of the Iraqi regime and Shi'ite. He is a native Arab speaker. He is elected by the Iraqi people. Also how many Persian schools are there for the Iranian minority in Bahrain supported by the government? in UAE? or in Kuwait? or in Iraq? Do they even have a Persian television? Newspaper? The Iranian percentage relative to the population there is much higher than Arab speakers in Iran. So do not bring subjects that are not relavant or else we know which group destroyed civilizations of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and etc. So don't give me Arabs are moraly superior to Iranians, given the horrendous record in the world and destruction of the name of Islam with ideologies like wahabism or pan-arabism. I think the world is smart enough to see what is going. If there is a good name for Islam, it is because of Iranians like Rumi, Attar, Hallaj and etc not because of Fat Sauds (and I wonder why they do not help the poor Arabs?) or Ben Laden. Now back to the discussion. The discussion was if native Arab officials have used the term. And yes they have. Iraqi and Iranian native Arab speakers have used it. It doesn't matter if you guys don't like the political ideologies of these native Arab speakers. As long as you can not prove someone had a gun in their throat forcing them, then it is sufficient. Infact in Saudi, UAE,.. everyone is forced not to use Persian Gulf. So the same argument can be made. I can bring an Iranian Arab that uses it. That was the discussion. The Iraqi official was not forced. Shamkhani is not forced. What was forced by the will of Iraqi people is when Saddam was beheaded by Iraqis and ended the pan-arabist dream. Couple of websites run by one or two people (websites are very cheap) do not represent the Arab speaking minority of Khuzestan nor does an Iraqi like Ahwaz. Shamkhani is elected official from Khuzestan, by people vote's and so is the Iraqi mp's , who are elected from Iraqi people in a democratic election. So they are true representatives. So let us stick to the subject which is the name Persian Gulf. There should be no other discussions here, but since you guys keep bringing up outside points which have no relevance to the discussion, I can do the same. There was an agreement between Iranian users and Arab users. I did not fully agree, but it was consensus and consensus should be adhered to and respected. --alidoostzadeh 17:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

stick to the subject which is the name Persian Gulf - It would be good if you could also stick to the point, instead of making assumptions about me and using Wikipedia as a platform to claim that Arabs "are going around and making genocides". I was simply making the point that Ahwazi Arabs refer to the Arabian Gulf and you respond with nearly 800 words of accusations, emotional claims and a defence of the Iranian system of government. Let's stick to the point shall we? As I was saying, Ahwazi Arabs also use Arabian Gulf because that is the term commonly used among Arabs in the Gulf.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 17:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Again you are being spokesman. Who elected you as a spokeman for Khuzestani Arabs when you are not even one. In fact read any unbiased book and Khuzestani Arabs did not fall into saddam's racist propoganda. So you are not a spokeman. Now you are saying some Khuzestan Arabs do not use Persian Gulf. That is more reasonable and some do. And if we are mentinoing Arab countries, Iranians in Arab countries like Bahran, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq.. use Persian Gulf. But the discussion was also about elected officials. We mentioned Shamkhani from Iran and Iraqi MP's in Iraq. Both elected officials by people's vote. They are actually more representative for people than the fat and immoral Shaykhs of UAE, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain, Saudi, and etc where the name Persian Gulf is suppressed anyway. So the argument can work both ways. So read the discussion. There was a consensus between Iranian and Arab users (for once), and even though I wanted some other wordings, I reluctantly accepted it. Now someone mentioned that Arab officials never have used the term, but I proved it wrong. So I think people should adhere to the consensus, but if not, then previous version can be restored. And if you guys attack Iranians and play innocent infront of wiki community, I can go off topic as well and I believe the record of the other side is much more bleak with regards to outside issues. So we should concentrate on the issue instead of being spokesmans. --alidoostzadeh 17:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you believe that Iranian elections are free and fair? Perhaps you do. But I don't think Shamkhani was elected through free and fair elections and therefore is no spokesman for anyone but the Iranian regime. SCIRI is also an Iranian organisation, so its representatives will repeat the Iranian line. I have no problem with Iranians or their opinions. I just think that an NPOV article should give equal weight to Arabs and their opinions, including persecuted Ahwazi Arabs.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 17:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Again off topic. Playing innocennt, where-as documents for genocides are very much abundant from ba'athist supporters and governments and I can go off topic and talk about genocides comitted in Sudan , Iraq, etc. No election is 100% perfect (even in the US), but at least unlike the other Persian Gulf countries, there was elections in Iraq and Iran. And the discussion was not about how these officials get elected, but if they were political officials or not. In Iraq, the election was the best there was in the Arab speaking world. SCIRI was elected in a totally fair election by millions of Arab Shi'ites of Iraq who suffered under Saddam and it actually shows that you are out of touch with Arabs, the majority of whom are not racist just like the majority of Iranians are not. SCIRI is not an Iranian organization, it is an Iraqi organization and all of its members are Iraqi Shi'ite Arabs and some Shi'ite turkomens/Kurds. The majority of the population of Iraq, as you know (65%) and 20% are Sunni Kurds (who were gased by Iraqi pan-arab nationalists). So SCIRI is the most or one of the most important political organization in Iraq and it has been elected by millions of people and they do not need a phony website to become spokeman. They are the spokeman because they are elected. So unlike random one man websites (which can be even created by Iraqi ba'athist), SCIRI was elected by millions of Iraqi. In fact, if we look at the Arab speaking world, SCIRI, is the only organization that has been elected in the millions along with some other groups. The rest of the elections like Mubarak's or Saddam's were shams (100% or death). Perhaps the opinions of persecuted Arab Shi'ites of Iraq and their elected representativees does not matter for you, as it did not for Saddam, and other pan-arab sunninationalist. Nor does the opinion of Arabs of Khuzestan who the overwhemling majority fought Saddam matter for pan-arab sunni arabs. But these groups are native Arab speakers. Arab Shi'ites elected MP's in Iraq democratically and are the majority and for the most part do not share racist feelings towards Iranians. That is why Sunni Iraqi Arabs like yourself call them :Majoos, Ajam and etc.. but they are technically Arabs and native Arab speakers. As per the article, you should have participated in the consensus if you think there was a problem with it. The persecuted Iranians who were forced off their land by Saddam, and other emotional words can be brought up and then I can add a word about NPOV. Stick to the issue. Iraqi MP's and Iranian Arab officials have used Persian Gulf and that was the discussion. The rest of the political commentary from users about these guys is not relevant. Given that Iraq is the largest Arab speaking country in the Persian Gulf and Iranian Arabs are larger than the population of all the other Persian Gulf Arab countries with the exception of Saudia Arabia, I think this is an important point. Or else I can make political commentary on every other official and it is not too hard to do on non-elected officials. --alidoostzadeh 18:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never called any persecuted Ahwazi Arab "ajam". You claim I am a Sunni, an Iraqi, a Ba'athist, a pan-Arab nationalist and anti-Shi'ite. Why are you claiming this and what is your point? The fact is that all Arabs in the Gulf - those who are not employed by an Iranian political party or the Iranian state - refer to the Gulf as the Arabian Gulf.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 18:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you might be right, basically you call the persecuted people by genocidal ba'athist as Ajams, not just khuzestani Arabs. And heck you are anti-Shi'ite, since you do not respect the votes of the majority of shi'ites in Iraq. The fact is that SCIRI was elected by millions of Iraqis. You were not. So you are a spokeman for your self and not "all Arabs" as you claim. SCIRI to you might be an Iranian political party, but millions of Iraqis elected it and their official are native Arab speakers. End of the story. You = zero votes. SCIRI=millions of people elected it, millions of votes. It's spokeman thus can speak for millions of people. Unless you have spoken to "All Arabs in the Gulf", the credibility of SCIRI elected by millions of Iraqi Arabs is solid. -alidoostzadeh 18:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There should be a map with the borders at sea. Many people don't know where the borders at sea goes... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.108.225.216 (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC).