Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 23: Difference between revisions
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====[[:Robyn Dawkins]] and [[:Gavin Clinton-Parker]] (closed)==== |
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====[[:Robyn Dawkins]] and [[:Gavin Clinton-Parker]]==== |
====[[:Robyn Dawkins]] and [[:Gavin Clinton-Parker]]==== |
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'''Closing admins remarks''': This is a procedural close per the original deleting admin overturning their own decision as incorrect. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AViridae&diff=133753754&oldid=133753381 this] diff and Merope's comments in the debate. Remember before you challenege me on this for being involved, that I am only closing this myself because Merope asked me to. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 00:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC) |
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:{{la|Robyn Dawkins}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/Robyn Dawkins|restore]]<tt>|</tt><span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:{{fullurl:Robyn Dawkins}} cache]</span><tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robyn Dawkins|AfD]]<tt>)</tt> |
:{{la|Robyn Dawkins}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/Robyn Dawkins|restore]]<tt>|</tt><span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:{{fullurl:Robyn Dawkins}} cache]</span><tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robyn Dawkins|AfD]]<tt>)</tt> |
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:{{la|Gavin Clinton-Parker}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/Gavin Clinton-Parker|restore]]<tt>|</tt><span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:{{fullurl:Gavin Clinton-Parker}} cache]</span><tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gavin Clinton-Parker|AfD]]<tt>)</tt> |
:{{la|Gavin Clinton-Parker}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/Gavin Clinton-Parker|restore]]<tt>|</tt><span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:{{fullurl:Gavin Clinton-Parker}} cache]</span><tt>|</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gavin Clinton-Parker|AfD]]<tt>)</tt> |
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*'''Comment''' The very person who deleted the article asked, way near the top , for it to be sent to AfD instead. Second, the material fills two lines of a very general article, and there is no redirects. How it can be called a suitable replacement I do not know. I do know that there is a case to be made for going by rational discussion, not gut feelings, and " knowing in your heart what the right thing to do actually is." is the most inconsistent of criteria--we all have different hearts and guts, but we should all be able to engage in a sensible discussion, based on the application of what we find to be our common principles, however deep we have to go to get to them. One of mine is basic fairness--another word for this is following process. Following Uncle G, we would simply let him decide on N and have done with it. I think he usually makes reasonable decisions, but that's not the sort of project I thought I joined. |
*'''Comment''' The very person who deleted the article asked, way near the top , for it to be sent to AfD instead. Second, the material fills two lines of a very general article, and there is no redirects. How it can be called a suitable replacement I do not know. I do know that there is a case to be made for going by rational discussion, not gut feelings, and " knowing in your heart what the right thing to do actually is." is the most inconsistent of criteria--we all have different hearts and guts, but we should all be able to engage in a sensible discussion, based on the application of what we find to be our common principles, however deep we have to go to get to them. One of mine is basic fairness--another word for this is following process. Following Uncle G, we would simply let him decide on N and have done with it. I think he usually makes reasonable decisions, but that's not the sort of project I thought I joined. |
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:I am not too concerned about this relatively minor issue & I don't think it matters much what happens to the article. I do think it matters what principle we use for making decisions: reason, and consensus arrived at based on reason, or a total reliance on IDONTLIKEIT and ILIKEIT. This is the sort of matter where I am glad we have at least one person willing to stand up and testify, and, although much less eloquent, I am honored to join him. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 00:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC) |
:I am not too concerned about this relatively minor issue & I don't think it matters much what happens to the article. I do think it matters what principle we use for making decisions: reason, and consensus arrived at based on reason, or a total reliance on IDONTLIKEIT and ILIKEIT. This is the sort of matter where I am glad we have at least one person willing to stand up and testify, and, although much less eloquent, I am honored to join him. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 00:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse deletion'''; I'm not a BLP wonk, but two people separated at birth is in itself not notable. Interesting story, but it doesn't satisfy encyclopedic notability to me. Plus, the "average" referencing job does show some BLP concerns.--[[User:Wizardman|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#006">Wizardman</span>]] 01:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC) |
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====[[Frog and the Peach]] (closed)==== |
====[[Frog and the Peach]] (closed)==== |
Revision as of 03:37, 27 May 2007
Robyn Dawkins and Gavin Clinton-Parker (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Closing admins remarks: This is a procedural close per the original deleting admin overturning their own decision as incorrect. See this diff and Merope's comments in the debate. Remember before you challenege me on this for being involved, that I am only closing this myself because Merope asked me to. ViridaeTalk 00:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This subject is notable. The story of these two boys has been covered internationally, continuously, for 18 years. It was recently the subject of a 60 Minutes segment. It was covered in magazines in the early 1990s. There's an existing article on Kimberly Mays, another child who was switched at birth. The topic itself is of encyclopedic interest because it is so rare. It will likely continue to be of enduring interest. I particularly object to it being speedily deleted without giving me an opportunity to post a hold-on request. --Bookworm857158367 18:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a speedy A7, "where the article does not assert the notability of the subject. --SunStar Net talk 08:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Frog and the Peach (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Notable Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
- Canadian royal family (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)
Canadian Royal Family (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
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New DRV to discuss solely the issue of whether the redirection was correct. I closed the earlier DRV (below) because undeletion had occurred. Subsequent to that time, disputes over the redirect have continued. See the ANI discussion, which has resulted in the redirect being protected and a call for the discussion of the redirect to come back here. Was redirection correct? GRBerry 17:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Little Fatty (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Invalid G4...this is not a repost of the deleted article. This new version was sourced and carefully avoided talking about the person involved, instead it was about the meme. Given the controversy surrounding speedy deletions of this article I think overturning and listing at AfD would be appropriate. -N 16:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Talk:Scientific Revolution/archive1 (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a request for assistance to restore access to the archives of this talk page. I don't know how they were lost but as a clue to the administrator who handles this, the article recently was changed from Scientific Revolution to Copernicus Revolution to Copernicus revolution and back to Scientific Revolution. I'd also appreciate help on creating an archive2 for the articles through February on the present talk page, which is extremely large. Thanks for the help. SteveMcCluskey 13:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC) |
The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
The debate was closed as "no consensus" despite a clear consensus to delete. Apart from the sheer amount of delete comments, most keep comments are not particularly well-founded: "it has been kept before" is not grounds for a procedural keep, especially not after half a year; "it can be maintained" and "it works better than the search function" are proven wrong by precedent; and "it helps people find things if they don't know how to spell them" simply isn't true, because you can't find people on a list if you don't know if e.g. their name starts with "Ar", "Aer", "Er" or "Ier", or some variation thereof.
This page and its subpages purport to be a list of all people with articles in Wikipedia. In that, they're hopelessly outdated since, unlike categories, they need manual upkeep. Clearly many people find these lists problematic, outdated and/or unmaintainable. It is therefore not a productive approach to say that "not everybody agrees so let's not do anything". The closing admin declined to respond on his talk page, so I'm listing it here to request overturn and delete. >Radiant< 09:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. The case for deletion was clearly persuasive enough to get a clear consensus, and the arguments on the keep side for maintaining this hopelessly unmaintainable list are not strong enough to justify calling it any other way. The misspelling argument is pointless for an even better reason than the nominator points out: you can use Google to search Wikipedia (which often works far better than the inbuilt engine) and Google is very good at allowing for misspellings. --Sam Blanning(talk) 10:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. There was clearly consensus to abolish the present system; the only non-clear point was how to delete it (i.e. what info should be saved). Kusma (talk) 10:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete but hold on. I think the consensus was clear for the deletion, but there were various concerns expressed, either in form "Keep for now" or "Reform". There should be an additional discussion on how an "exit strategy" should be performed and the information moved & reorganized; some proposals were present at the AfD, but a centralized discussion should be held somewhere WPP:BIO? WP:VP? I'm not sure. Duja► 10:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Do not overturn. I disagree that the consensus was clear, and agree with the closing administrator. --Alvestrand 11:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus - it was "suspended" when I went to look - I wanted to add my opinion, but I couldn't, so if nothing else this deserves another AFD. Throwing in my opinion, I think this should be moved to userspace for now pending an overhaul - I actually agree with the /theory/ of improving navigation and being an annotated contents page of people auto-generated by a bot, because the search is a disaster, but editing by hand obvious isn't working. I believe it's close which makes for a "no consensus", I also don't believe that the delete argument is compelling enough if a technical solution could be sought, which I believe it can, and most of the delete arguments are "per nom" which consist of saying it's impossible to maintain (which could be worked around via a bot for example), an "indiscriminate list" (if turned into a navigational aide and put into Wikipedia space is moot), and beside those two there was no real compelling argument to delete and this deletion is likely to prevent the creation of future, similar, useful maintainable lists (which is my experience of AFD/DRV in these sorts of situations) -Halo 12:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- The debate was suspended out of process by an involved user (indeed, I've never seen such suspensions before, I suspect he made that up) but this was quickly undone and the debate ran for the regular amount of time. That seems hardly grounds for a "procedural relist". Note that in theory this list page is a nice idea, but in practice it really doesn't work at all. >Radiant< 12:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm just adding my point of view and it stopped me voting, which it did, and forgot about it until my watchlist said it was on DRV. My point was expressly that it's a good idea in theory, while agreeing that the current situation doesn't work and a technical solution should be sought as it could be an extremely useful navigational aide, and the deletion of the page will inevitably prevent a technical replacement from ever happening. I agree with the /page/ and the theory behind it, which few of the people voting delete have actually covered dismissing it as unmaintainable, while not agreeing with the current /technical solution/ behind it's generation. Perhaps some of the people voting delete, particularly those who said "delete per nom" or "delete as unmaintainable" in the original AFD, should address whether they'd be against a similar proposed technical solution? -Halo 13:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- The debate was suspended out of process by an involved user (indeed, I've never seen such suspensions before, I suspect he made that up) but this was quickly undone and the debate ran for the regular amount of time. That seems hardly grounds for a "procedural relist". Note that in theory this list page is a nice idea, but in practice it really doesn't work at all. >Radiant< 12:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete this. Arguments for delete are: hopelessly, irredeemably incomplete, useless for all practical purposes. Arguments for keep are: WP:ILIKEIT. Guy (Help!) 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. Consensus on the AfD seemed pretty clearly in favor of deletion, and I'm having a hard time finding any ambiguity to it. As stated by the nom, even on a straight up and down headcount the tally is heavily in favor of deleting the article, and when you factor in the weight of the arguments it tilts even further in that direction. Arkyan • (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete As said before, there was a fairly clear consensus. Saving my opinion about the article itself for when/if a new AfD is opened in this DRV fails to get the desired result. JuJube 17:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. I agree with Radiant's reading of the debate. WP:USEFUL is not a dismissively bad argument, but it's also not very strong, and there's nothing I can see that would reasonably lead to dismissing of delete arguments. In this case, I would count the keep arguments as legitimate arguments, they were just in the (clear) minority here. Mangojuicetalk 17:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete Clear consensus to delete, weight or number of arguments apparently was not taken into account when closing. (H) 17:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus First, it was a reasonable read of the discussion given that many of the arguments on both sides boil down to like it/don't like it. If that test is to be applied, it needs to be applied to both sides of the debate. WP:NOT USEFUL is no more valid than WP:USEFUL. A lot of the more valid discussion is not so much about page deletion, but about policies, tools, and means for indexing and vandal fighting. An XfD is not the appropriate forum for such a discussion. Open a centralized discussion on that issue. If consensus forms, then we can readdress these lists in light of that discussion. GRBerry 17:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Radiant makes a strong argument (I once contributed heavily to this list but his argument makes great sense to me), but then, I'm reluctant to make DRV "round 2" of AFD. What do people think about a compromise: moving this to the Wikipedia namespace? --W.marsh 18:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete - Delete arguments strong, keep arguments poor, consensus to delete apparent. Otto4711 19:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus. Xfd is not a vote. There was no consensus on any points raised by either sides. The discussion mostly consisted of useful vs. not useful, along with a few "waste of resources" and "indiscrimate/incomplete" - I don't see any merit in these arguments. User:Carcharoth had some great ideas, and I think this probably played a large part in the decision to not close the discussion based on a straight vote count. --- RockMFR 20:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus. The arguments on both sides are valid. Consensus is not about majorities or supermajorities or even about who has the stronger arguments. It is about finding a reasonable solution that tries to address the points made by all sides, and that every reasonable person can accept, even if it is not the perfect solution. Yes, an alphabetical index of names of people is a useful navigation aid that belongs in Wikipedia. Yes, this list as currently implemented is largely unmaintainable. But deletion solves nothing. The solution is to come up with a way of making such a list maintainable, whether it is done with the current software through bots, categories and/or templates, or by proposing and implementing changes to the MediaWiki software itself. DHowell 21:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Question: is it intended that these pages be replaced with an appropriate set of categories, as proposed during the deletion discussions? If not, then what is the point of deleting them which would result in a net loss of information? If so, where is the planning for the replacement categories? —Phil | Talk 06:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. The consensus to delete in the AfD was clear and overwhelming: 10 keep arguments vs. 26 delete arguments, and the deletion arguments were all quite strong, pointing out glaring flaws in a huge, manually-updated, mostly unknown index such as this. Krimpet (talk) 09:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete Agree completely with all the comments above. I always found the "no consensus" conclusion to be false in nature as every discussion has SOME consensus. Step up the deletions. Bulldog123 15:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus - There's no procedural erro - the conclusion of no consensus is viable, especially given the completel lack of merited arguments on the delete side (though keep may not be much better). Well within closing Admin's discretion. WilyD 16:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. Inherently unmaintainable due to size. - Merzbow 20:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus. There was no consensus to delete. Many people people find it useful and expressed their opinions. A tremendous amount of effort has gone into building and maintaining the list. The mere fact that a large number of people argue that they have no use for it does not trump the fact that other people find it a useful list. That looks like no consensus to me. -- DS1953 talk 22:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. Clear consensus to delete. WarpstarRider 23:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus - (Disclosure: I am a sometime contributor to LoPbN, so may have a bias.) However, I think I am being fairly objective in maintaining that the closing admin's decision was not a procedural error; it is plausible that he/she, taking into consideration all of the following: a) the recommendations and arguments of the editors requesting keep b) the unique nature of LoPbN compared to the usual types of articles, categories, etc, nominated for deletion c) its past history, including the records of discussion from the previous deletion attempts, and d) the comments by those editors who wished to replace LoPbN with something having equivalent function, but more easily maintainable, requesting to keep LoPbN available as an information source until a replacement could be engineered - all taken together were enough to determine that in this case there was not consensus for a simple and straightforward deletion at this time. -- Lini 03:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus - because there was no consensus. Jheald 08:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus - The fact that there are a significant number of people who have stated that they found this list useful, and that numerous people have vouched for the list in the most recent and in previous deletion attempts, disproves the notion of a consensus when it comes to deleting this list. --Slyguy (talk) 15:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn, delete, and kill it with fire. This is practically the very definition of an indiscriminate collection of information. The fact that it is absolutely and completely unmaintainable to boot just makes it worse. Nandesuka 16:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete - this seems to be precisely what categories are meant for (and they don't fall out of date). WP:NOT#IINFO issues. Orderinchaos 19:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse as no consensus If there ever was an article with a confused debate justifying a conclusion of no consensus, it was this one. DGG 23:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete - talk about an unmaintainable mess. I looked at the MFD and it looks like a pretty good consensus to delete. Then I took a look at the list and looked for a few well-known football coaches - Frank Beamer and Bobby Bowden. Neither was listed. That's not exactly a spectacular sample, but it tells me that the list isn't well-maintained. If a bot could auto-populate the list from categories ... ok ... it might be useful ... but if it isn't going to be maintained, it's a nightmare. It's a potential vanity target and I'm sure nobody has all of the kazillions of pages on their watchlist. --BigDT 01:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete - and add this as an example to what Wikipedia is not. AKRadecki 01:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete per consenus to do so in the discussion. ViridaeTalk 02:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus, agree with closing admin... however, suggest centralized discussion to move forward to Carcharoth's proposal. Am puzzled, incidentally, as to why this was on MfD rather than AfD. -- Visviva 09:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- It was on AFD too [3]. >Radiant< 09:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete This article is doomed to fail, as it is per se not maintainable. --Mbimmler 11:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete - totally without merit--Docg 11:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete. Agree with Radiant's reasoning. This is a case where theory is at odds with reality. Sure, it would be nice to have an organized list of all people by name that's magically updated by the Wikifaeries. That's not what we have and it's not reasonable to expect this list will ever be maintainable. As for process concerns, the delete arguments were more compelling and numerous. ChazBeckett 12:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus as per DS1953. I'd say that to any individual user of Wikipedia, the vast majority of articles are "useless" because they are far outside their fields of interest or study, and many pages appear "unmaintainable" to the uninitiated, but no one would want to see them deleted because of that. Moreover, I don't yet see any consensus among those who wish to delete it as to how it should be replaced. The list of people by name serves the honourable purpose of an alphabetical index, something you can find in any scholarly book. Personally, I can't think of any replacement. <KF> 16:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Category:People does not contain a single name ("Articles in this category should be moved to subcategories where appropriate"), and the subcategories are also maintained manually. Where's the difference? And users like me are interested in people rather than, say, people by revolution. <KF> 16:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus the notion that there was a clear consensus to delete that article is patently absurd. --JayHenry 16:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete per Nandesuka. Completely unmaintainable indiscriminate collection of information. ElinorD (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- I fail to see the point. What Nandesuka says is delete it because it is an indiscriminate collection of items of information. However, the List of people by name is not any of the things mentioned in the relevant "policy" (List of Frequently Asked Questions, Memorial, Travel guide, Instruction manual, Internet guide, Textbook or annotated text, Lyrics database, Plot summary, Statistics). As I already tried to point out, it is an index used for cross-referencing and other things, an essential requirement for any written work of non-fiction which aims at being transparent rather than cryptic. As to its alleged unmaintainability, the List is admittedly incomplete. But tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles are; after all this project still is, and will always be, work in progress.
- Also, I'm still waiting for someone to suggest an alternative. It would be plain crazy to delete the effort of many years without making it accessible for further use, so what about projectifying it? <KF> 20:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse no consensus, especially in light of Del votes that should have been left uncounted,
- _ _ for merely echoing currently or previously well-answered arguments like "unmaintainable", or
- _ _ for contradicting other del args, e.g.: either loading system or duplicating search's function has to be an invalid arg, since these thousandish, well-under-32K main-namespace and templates are insignificant portion of our thousand-times-bigger load for DB-space and article count, and the impact of search on response time (when search isn't shut off to avoid that impact) means we should be doing everything we can to reduce the number of searches -- in light of the high proportion of bio articles (~20%), that would include having search start by looking for keywords that are first words of sortkeys of yesterday's LoPbN, and if there is one, asking "Are you sure this LoPbN page wouldn't do the job?" before starting any search."
- (Sorry if making that last point here sounds like seeking another bite at the apple. And my 4 years of making this tool my principal editing focus (which isn't, despite the arguments of a keep voter or three, any argument for a keep result) does probably leave me by far the best prepared to state or counter some arguments. But the highly procedurally defective AfD/MfD in question came at the time that would most handicap me (at any time in those four years) in making those arguments. (I focused my sparsely available on-line time, and much of my think/research compose time -- perhaps foolishly, but that's not the articles' fault -- mostly on the procedural problems, believing that waiting to raise them here would best avoid letting discussants waste their time on a tainted process.) The overwhelm extends to the point where i'm not even sure whether my point-by-point on the nom'g arg is one of the things that is on the page or just in a steno-book awaiting keying and saving.)
--Jerzy•t 21:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- If the nom is going to offer here a refinement of an argument made during AfD, i am going to single it out to be countered here. They deprecate a keep arg
- it helps people find things if they don't know how to spell them
(IMO probably not quoting an actual version of it), saying
- simply isn't true, because you can't find people on a list if you don't know if e.g. their name starts with "Ar", "Aer", "Er" or "Ier", or some variation thereof.
But in fact this does nothing to counter the repeated observation that there are many cases like Hoffman/Hoffmann/Hofman/Hofmann where the alpha list makes possible an eye-ball search much shorter than alternatives. Nor does it acknowledge that even the contrived 4-way confusion cited here is capable of being reduced by the mechanism that's been in use for years on some pages, and probably is on the page or pages with those Hof... surnames: "This name may sound like" [another name] lks. Note that even soundex or automated fuzzy searches could not do as well as such cross referencing, bcz the c-ref'g can be targeted at cases of real names, and even (with enuf effort) at names that actually are misspelled on Web pages. (And, No, that's not fully implemented either, and Yes, it'll take a lot more work to do so, but the question is not whether the pages are ready for prime time (neither is Thai art, which groans for expansion but not deletion), but whether its existence is more burden than an aid to users. The tool doesn't say it's complete, and implies it's not; if it needs to say it on every page (except permanent index-only pages) to avoid being misleading to some readers (not argued let alone demonstrated), the "incomplete" notice can be put on every page simultaneously, with about 5 minutes total for editing and testing.) (Gotta run again, w/o finishing proofreading!)
--Jerzy•t 21:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
User:UBX/Suicide (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Cyde deleted this userbox without any sort of discussion or even notification. The matter was brought up on Cyde's talk page but Cyde provided only "common sense" as the criterion for speedy deletion. Other users contested that it was common sense to delete the page. In short, Cyde's deletion was out of process, and the page in question should be undeleted, at which point Cyde or some other user may choose to initiate a proper deletion discussion. The Storm Surfer 05:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
This userbox has the potential to be misused for nefarious purposes/trolling - remember the incident about the user who apparently threatened suicide on here, then it was revealed to be a hoax?? Keep this deleted. It has WP:BEANS connotations, and that could be particularly nasty. I'm not for or against userboxes per se, but inflammatory userboxes like this show that there are limits as to what is really acceptable for a userbox. I agree with Pgk's comment about it being useless for building an encyclopedia. --SunStar Net talk 09:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
This comment is controversial, I realize that, but this one does have problems, in a moral, legal and publicity sense. To undelete it would be a very bad idea. --SunStar Net talk 19:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I am the one who made the userbox, and I just want to clear something up: I did not make it to troll, disrupt, seek any sort of help, or for attention. I made it only because it is true. I cooled down since Cyde's cold and apathetic attitude on the matter, but I see that Wikipedia, nor society, is not ready to accept suicide, for whatever reason. I don't see how it's disruptive, as I was probably the only one who was ever going to use it, and my userpage isn't exactly the most popular, but that doesn't matter now. I support it's undeletion, but it seems Wikipedia's users really have a stigma for it: so be it. Make any snide comment about this as you like: I will not respond either way. Let those who argue that Wikipedia is not a place for such things know that it was merely a little fact about myself, nothing more important than the fact that I like spaghetti. And let ignorance remain bliss. Just wanted to say something before it gets deleted. -Eridani 21:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Crystal Gail Mangum (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Closing explanation: Examining all the comments carefully, it is clear that a significant portion of the community does not endorse the unilateral action taken in this case. Hence, "overturn." As for the fate of the article, it was surprisingly uncommon for folks to request relisting, so it will not be relisted at this time. Normally, DRV is for discussing the decision-making process involved in a deletion, not for deciding on the fate of the article. But there are too many comments on what we should do with the page for them to be ignored because of that, so I feel it's important, given that the debate will not be relisted, to interpret this debate as deciding on the fate of the page. Many folks made arguments explicitly in support of redirecting the article; the main arguments were based on WP:BLP (that the article, though sourced, presents mostly negative information) and that the other article already contains all the content this one did. Some of the undelete comments endorsed returning the article in full, although many either explicity endorsed the redirect solution or were merely opposing the way the decision was made. Those in support of full undeletion made two main points: (1) we can try to fix the article / it was okay, and (2) the prior AfD resulted in a keep. Neither of these is really an argument against redirection; in response to point #2 we have multiple AfDs on articles frequently: consensus can change. In fact, I didn't see any good arguments that directly oppose the (2nd) argument for redirection. (And, though many people said "Endorse deletion," I really don't think they wanted the redirect to go away, but if I'm wrong, head over to WP:RFD.) Thus, I have to conclude that the consensus and the weight of the arguments here is in favor of the redirect. I hope this closes the book on this particular article, at least for a long while. Mangojuicetalk 12:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Another controversial WP:BLP deletion, heavily contested on the article's talk page. This article had over 30 sources (as can be verified by the Google cache ([4]), and is a central figure in the 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal. Although her name was confidential during much of the scandal, it has already been published by reliable media sources, including Fox News. Although there were some issues with the article's overall tone, these could have been handled by a number of methods short of deletion. It could have been handled by stubbing the article (and protecting it for a while, if necessary) so that changes could be discussed first on talk and vetted for potential BLP issues. It could have been handled by redirecting to a section in the main scandal article and then protecting that redirect (indeed, this was done briefly today, and I have no idea why it didn't remain that way). Deletion and salting without any discussion was clearly inappropriate. A brief perusal of Google demonstrates the subject's notability, and even if the existing article was problematic, salting is unjustified unless no good article could possibly be written (or redirect placed) at that title. That clearly is not the case here. Also, a previous AFD resulted in Keep. *** Crotalus *** 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Note to all Some commentary has been moved to the talk page. It will need to be courtesy blanked later. Please do not say anything else that will need to be courtesy blanked. GRBerry 13:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please heed these proscriptions at WP:BLP:
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Connections Academy (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
The page was deleted earlier today for being a spam article, however the article did not read as an advertisement, but an a description of what the school was. I believe some of the links were not neccessary, hwoever I feel deletion of the article was not warranted. Wildthing61476 01:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
- Enchanted Forest Water Safari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)
Unnecessary deletion I created this page and found it deleted; I did not enter enough information initially, so I went back and found non-partisan sources and generated detailed information about the topic. I found that the page had been repeatedly deleted by user Mhking, who stated that I did not cite third-party sources. Although my page did cite third-party sources, I cited to Mhking other pages (such as Six Flags Theme Park) that do not cite sources, but were warned rather than deleted. I am from central new york and have no vested interest in Enchanted Forest, but wish to participate in Wikipedia in a meaningful manner. I would like the opportunity to finish the page and provide useful information about this and other topics. Thank you for your time. Jjm10 01:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Kommentar why not just re-create the article? -N 01:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response He has tried to re-create and it sources. It was suggested that he come to request deletion review. Discussion here. Uncle uncle uncle 04:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Kommentar: on a purely-procedural note, Mhking (talk · contribs) tagged this with {{db-repost}} here: I see no sign of any deletion discussion. Oops much? —Phil | Talk 06:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Not much of an oops. The deletion reason, rather than the tagging reason, is what we judge. That version was deleted under WP:CSD#A7, for not having an assertion of notability. You are correct, however, that WP:CSD#G4, which {{db-repost}} is for, does not apply to this article since it hasn't ever had an AFD. GRBerry 13:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Undelete, as this is not a re-creation of the original article and hence is not subject to speedy under G4. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- I just wanted to add the comment that I did not fully understand the deletion discussion procedure, so after I found it speedily deleted (the first time), I went back and generated a complete article, with cited references. I believe this was misunderstood as an attempt to subvert the regular procedures; I was instead trying to answer what I thought was a concern about sources. I understand the importance of citing sources and my first attempt at the page was more of a "placeholder" (which I won't do without sources in the future) since I saw the subject did not exist and wanted to create it. Sorry for the confusion about this. Jjm10 01:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I was the last person to delete this page (it was completely blank when I did so), and I'm also the one who suggested that Jjm10 bring his case here. Looking back through the history, I was actually impressed with the article...he did a good job writing it, it just lacked sourcing, which could have easily been taken care of with ref or fact tags. I support either restoring the article to it's "long" condition, or restoring the text to a draft page on Jjm10's user page where he can work on it and bring it up to speed; I'd be willing to coach him along in this, if he so desired. Once it was ready, I'd suggest a quick review by a couple of the original deleting admins, and then a launch back into the encyclopedia. I believe that this is a good-faith effort by a new editor who simply has got caught up in the "process" that this place can become. AKRadecki 01:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Radecki, which version do you say was good? Guy (Help!) 16:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'd say this one would probably be the best starting point. It does need some work, no doubt, needs a good lead, and reorganization, and needs the tone to be adjusted to be more encyclopedic, but it's certainly a start. AKRadecki 20:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- That version, unless I am much mistaken, reads like a pastiche or satire of an amusement park rather than a sourced article. There are a number of assertions and descriptions of things in there that I am highly dubious are actually factually true, and I would want to see cites for them. ++Lar: t/c 22:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'd say this one would probably be the best starting point. It does need some work, no doubt, needs a good lead, and reorganization, and needs the tone to be adjusted to be more encyclopedic, but it's certainly a start. AKRadecki 20:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Canadian Royal Family (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Additional closer's note: For the avoidance of doubt, no decision was made here on whether or not to protect the redirect. GRBerry 15:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Sourced, verifiable and free content not repeated elsewhere completely lost due to redirect. Note: the article underwent a second AfD in May, 2007; article contents were different to when first AfD conducted. G2bambino 00:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
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The above is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it. |
- ^ Jimmy Wales. "WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", May 19, 2006