Talk:Mary Bell

Why was she released?

Why was she released from prison after such a short time? She was diagnosed as a psychopath at trial; why would someone that dangerous be put back on the street?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.123.163 (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

She was imprisoned at the age of 11 and released at the age of 23. I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that she changed significantly in that period.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Misodoctakleidist (talk • contribs) 06:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

And she hasn't done anything in the 40 years since then, so clearly it was the right choice. Besides, with the childhood she had, how can you not be screwed up a little? 67.106.115.42 (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The article is also lacking that her imprisonment had a significant impact on her. Can we assume that TruTV (formerly Court TV) has sufficient enough editorial oversight to be a trustworthy link?

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/bell/incar_9.html
--208.255.118.242 (talk) 17:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Something most people aren't actively aware of is that there are several reasons for keeping someone in prison. People tend to gravitate towards a few (or one) of them. And tend to not be aware of, or not recognize the legitimacy of other reasons.

(Reasons for incarceration include: a) Rehabilitation, b) Public safety, c) Punishment, d) Deterrent to others, e) Restitution for loss to society, f) Eye-for-an-eye vengeance.)

But someone is kept in prison because the various groups agree -- compositely -- that is best. So it isn't completely meaningful to say "she's changed", because some groups and opinions do not recognize that as important. More than likely, she was judged to be less of a risk than other individuals. That factor would certainly have contributed to her release. 98.210.208.107 (talk) 01:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Agree; in short, the Parole Board evaluated her case and concluded that she was no longer at risk of further offending. It's a sad case, and Gitta Sereny's books make the argument for that. Rodhullandemu 01:15, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Uncorrected Vandalism

There appears to have been some vandalism on this page that was never corrected some time back. There used to be a paragraph on her Early Life that was removed and never replaced. See the edit here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Bell&diff=prev&oldid=113255185—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.173.199 (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Murder/Manslaughter

The first section of the article implies that Bell was convicted of the 'murder' of the two victims; however, the article later states that she was found not guilty of murder, but of manslaughter.

It is therefore more correct to state that the boys were 'killed' not 'murdered'. Will edit to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.65.166 (talk) 11:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Had she started puberty at time of killing?

Had she started puberty at the time of the killing? Had her hormones got her angry about her life upto that point in time and to relieve the anger, she desired to mistreat someone weaker than herself? 217.42.58.201 (talk) 02:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No, she started puberty while incarcerated. (See Cries Unheard) --Auric (talk) 03:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Untitled

Someone vandalized her birthdate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.107.159 (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Terrible writing

Makes no sense! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.199.172.236 (talk) 10:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The major additions made by Tinaj5 on 17 May are very poorly constructed, bordering in places on the nonsensical. A lot of the information seems trvial or redundant, but someone who has the inclination may be able to savlage something. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Life After Prison, Line 45

The content referring to the Metalcore band "Mary Bell" is not sourced, displays poor spelling and punctuation, and seems to me to be inappropriately promotional.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Loiterquote (talk • contribs) 07:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Scotswood

A major point in this killing is the neighbourhood that it happened in, Scotswood. All the houses on Mary Bell's street Whitehouse Road were demolished soon after. Her murders were committed in houses that were in the process of being demolished as a neighbourhood improvement. Every documentary movie and book on the subject emphasizes the poor living and social conditions that were common in Scotswood at the time. Why is this not mentioned in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.73.97 (talk) 23:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Anonymous grandmother?

Wait a minute! She's been granted anonymity, for life even, and is living under an assumed name. So how the hell does John Q Public know that she became a mother in 1984 and is now a grandmother? --Svartalf (talk) 13:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

This is sourced to the Daily Mail.[1] The UK tabloids probably know full well what her new identity is and where she is living today, but are barred from reporting it. The Mail would presumably have taken legal advice before publishing the 2009 story. It contains some details but stops short of breaking the anonymity order.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Still feels strange that her real ID and whereabouts should be known to tabloids, yet not have gone completely public... even if the press is barred from publishing the facts, I doubt that private citizens knowing them are under the same restrictions... and even if they are, it's possible enough to do so about assumed identities to the point that the fact would be globally known before the whistle blower were recognized and forced to put the thing off the net... and once the cat's out of the bag... --Svartalf (talk) 21:13, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It is a mystery why no-one has ever outed Mary Bell on the Internet, as it would be extremely hard to stop on a foreign website. Nevertheless, her luck appears to have held in this area.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 04:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps no one has seen the point in doing so, other than sheer maliciousness.Codenamemary (talk) 02:43, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the anonymity order worked and very few people know who she is. Smurfmeister (talk) 13:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Former popular culture section

I removed the reference to the Heartbeat episode because the IMDb plot summary for the stated episode does not indicate that a child murderer is an element of the plot. "Sympathy for the Devil" was 11:17, not 11:16, according to IMDb, but neither episode has this feature.

The Screen Two film Will You Love Me Tomorrow (1987) may have been inspired by the Mary Bell case, but the BFI synopsis (and the non-RS IMDb entry do not indicate this to be the case. The sources which suggest there is an influence appear to be wholly speculative and are not RS.

It is a stretch to say the American Law and Order series episode from 1999, with plenty of horrific domestic crimes for the makers to be aware of, would have been influenced by the Mary Bell case. I didn't check for evidence because it seemed improbable.

While there is a warning against using IMDb as a source, there is no suggestion it should not be used as a means of identifying material which should be deleted. Philip Cross (talk) 13:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Is it really appropriate to add such a section to the biographies of monsters? I'm sure Sutcliffe popularized the claw hammer somewhat, it doesn't make it right to have some laudatory section about how he changed modern culture.Ordessa (talk) 22:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Mary Bell was not a monster. She was an horrifically abused 11 year old who committed a horrific crime. In any case, article talk pages are not for the discussion of the article's subject. Paul Austin (talk) 03:22, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

"Mary Bell was not a monster."

What other word is appropriate to describe a girl who strangulated two children in cold blood, then? Disturbed? No, these people are just heartless monsters with no regard for anybody but themselves.

"She was an horrifically abused 11 year old who committed a horrific crime."

My mother works with children who have suffered worse abuse than she did. None of them go on to strangle their peers. Abuse is no excuse for the heartless actions she inflicted on young children.

"In any case, article talk pages are not for the discussion of the article's subject."

Tell that to the people who are arguing for a pop culture section so we can have an e-Shrine to a multiple murderer. These people are the ones discussing about the articles content, thinking we should have a discussion of the cultural impact of a child killer on a frigging encyclopedia entry. Don't blame me for pushing back against people who want to debase wikipedia as a legitimate information source.Ordessa (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Self-satisfied remarks like that make me want to cry. I wouldn't wish her childhood on anyone, and none of us can know how we we would respond as a confused child to such experiences. Be glad you didn't have to find out, and so can be so complacent about your own virtue. Paul B (talk) 20:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Oh, I see this shining light of moral certainty has just been banned from Wikipedia for repeated acts of dishonesty. I blame the parents. Paul B (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Mary Bell's husband

Just wondering, does Mary have a husband? --178.174.229.28 (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

We don't know. Her identity is protected. Paul B (talk) 23:52, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Non-free image

Fair use rationale does not extend to non-free images for BLPs. I removed the image. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Feedback on adding a quote

Thoughts on adding this quote in the section noting the book Cries Unheard by Gitta Sereny? The idea is to reflect how one of the victims sister feels about the book.

"I have read the book, and it's not educational. All it tells you is that if a girl can kill two young children she can go on to make money and live a secret life." -Sharon Richardson, whose brother was one of Bell's victims.

source: BBC NEWS Programmes - Breakfast | Mary Bell Case (2003) (last paragraph of article) --Vwanweb (talk) 05:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 20 January 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was:  Not done not enough support for any of the proposed titles (non-admin closure) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 18:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

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• Mary Bell → Mary Bell (child killer)
• Mary Bell (disambiguation) → Mary Bell

– In the 15 years since the creation of this article, the Mary Bell (disambiguation) page has expanded to the current 8 entries. There has never been a discussion to ascertain as to whether Mary Bell is, in fact, the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the dab page. The qualifier "(child killer)" is taken from the Daily Mail cite appended to the article, pending the possibility of another qualifier gaining consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:32, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

• Support – Better to disambiguate. Dicklyon (talk) 03:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - in terms of the historical view/the long game, the child killer who was but a child herself is most important. We also avoid WP:RECENTISM - that's why Samantha Smith, the child peace activist gets Samantha Smith and Samantha Smith (actress) doesn't, despite being more well-known to younger people. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 04:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support Mary Bell (juvenile murderer) would also be okay. 08:52, 20 January 2018 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Support For a modern British person, "Mary Bell" immediately means the 1968 child killer. However, there are other people called Mary Bell with a Wikipedia article, so a disambig would be standard practice.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:34, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose I've changed my mind on this. Mary Bell here is the best known and most viewed page, so there is no immediate need for a disambig in the article name. A hatnote per WP:SIMILAR is enough.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Ianmacm: No, this is definitely not "standard practice". Please read WP:PRIMARY TOPIC. There are other called George Washington with a Wikipedia article, would you consider it "standard practice" to make that a disambiguation page? bd2412 T 18:51, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - child killer while literally correct is also sensationalist and to an extent mitigates and ignores the abuse that was a significant factor in this case. If there does need to be a change could we use The Case of Mary Bell instead? Mighty Antar (talk) 14:30, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. As the nominator, I considered that the main objective was a resolution of the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC uncertainty. To that end, I would not oppose The Case of Mary Bell, any other reasonable title or any other reasonable qualifier. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 15:42, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is the overwhelming WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Even if we assume every person looking for another Mary Bell lands here first, this Mary Bell still gets at least 85% of the pageviews[2]. There's no reason to force the majority to a dab page rather than the article they want. Station1 (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose it appears that this person is well-known in the UK, and "child killer" is an awful disambiguator. (Mary Bell (juvenile murderer) would be OK). None of the other people seem prominent enough to force a move. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Picture

No picture of Mary, Norma, Betty? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 10:47, 4 October 2019 (UTC)