Talk:Lahnda

Eastern Punjabi

Eastern Punjabi is not a lahnda language? What is meant with eastern Punjabi? The dialect of East Punjab [India]? As far as I know this forms also a part of western Punjabi. This article need to be improved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.223.185.47 (talk) 08:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No Local Currency

The Lahnda languages are an Indo-Aryan languages dialect continuum spoken in western Panjab. The term has no local currency; it was devised by linguists to distinguish these dialects from Panjabi to the east; previously they had been known as Western Panjabi and Eastern Panjabi, respectively. Southern varieties locally called Siraiki and northern varieties called Hindko are being cultivated as literary languages to rival Pakistani Panjabi. On these reasons this Article be merged in Saraiki Language. The term has no local currency. Local call this Saraiki language. So this be renamed as Saraiki languages yes this be merged with Saraiki language.182.186.6.181 (talk) 14:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

added interwiki

• (cur | prev) 06:38, March 6, 2013‎ PLA y Grande Covián (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (6,647 bytes) (+256)‎ . . (I've added interwiki: ar:, ca:, es:, fr:, ja:, ko:, la:, no:, pl:, ru:, ur:__ .)

I know that today at enWikipedia there is a new method to edit interwiki, not at the usual wiki code. But with wikidata. I only know today the old process. --PLA y Grande Covián (talk) 09:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Gojri Dialect

How many people think that Gujri should also be catogarised in Lahnda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robinuthapa (talk • contribs) 12:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Consistant Moves with out any logic reverted. This name of article is more realistic and allows better understanding about a controversial classification,

Robinuthapa moved page Lahnda language to Lahnda Western Punjabi: Name was First introduced by Grierson as Western Punjabi, Still Majority of locals consider them self Punjabi because it is a dialect of Punjabi being Fully intengible & not aware of what Lahnda is. This article be moved to Saraiki language.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Robinuthapa (talk • contribs) 18:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Not transitional between Sindhi and Punjabi

How can Hindko and Potowari miles away from sindhi be transitional between Punjabi and Sindhi. Only Saraiki has very few Sindhi words because Arabs invaded Sindh and South Punjab up to Multan and made MUltan capital of Sindh that is why Multani / Saraiki contains few Arabic and Sindhi words. Robinuthapa (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Possible move

@Kwamikagami: I feel that this article should be moved to Lahnda dialect or more precisely Lahnda dialects, since it's just a group of dialects of Punjabi and a bit of Sindhi that are transitional, not necessarily a language in its own right. Filpro (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

But Lahnda is posited as a language, those western bits which aren't intelligible with Punjabi proper. — kwami (talk) 01:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

There isn't a "Punjabi proper" in Punjab if you're suggest that Majhi dialect = Punjabi. It's like saying Standard Mandarin is Mandarin proper and all other Mandarin dialects form a separate language. Is Low German considered a different language? Dialects of Punjabi like Saraiki are mutually intelligible to Majhi (standard Punjabi) according to the article. Lanhda (meaning "western" in Punjabi) is a dialect cluster of West Punjab to be even more precise.Filpro (talk) 01:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Low German is a very distinct language (or possibly even group of languages) from Standard German. The differences there a very pronounced. Even within High German, the differences are such that there are a number of languages distinct from Standard German. I don't know about Lahnda–Punjabi, but I must note that neither this article nor Punjabi language say anything about the mutual intelligibility between Lahnda and other Punjabi varieties, nor internally. --JorisvS (talk) 13:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@JorisvS: @Kwamikagami: I know you both are very good language article editors and extremly professional editors. I agree with @Filpro: all westren punjabi dialects + Dogri + Westren Pahari are mutually intelligible with Eastren Punjabi (Standard). These diffrent dialect speakers never use urdu for intercommunication. In Pakistan last census 1998 17 districts (Rawalpindi, Jehlum, Attock, CHakwal, Sargodha, Mianwali, Khushab, Mandi Bahudin, Hafizabad, Sahiwal, Okara, Pak pattan, Vehari, Bahawalnagar, Khanewal, Jhang, Toba Taksingh) who as per linguist speak western Punjabi chose Punjabi as their language, rather then Politicaly motived Saraiki/ Hindko/Potwari/Pahari options. Political motivation is linked with a background. In Pakistan their is a bias against North Punjab which include all above mentioned western Punjabi 17 districts plus 8 Proper Punjabi distrcits. Reason being these areas are economically rich with industry and agriculture. Westren Punjabi speakers of South Punjab (9 districts) think themselves poor due to North Punjab and have started a new province campaign by distinting them selve as Saraiki. Similerly Hindko dialect speaker 5 districts in KPK province live with Pashtun and Pashtun call them Punjabi and ask them to go back to Punjab province so in response they claim a seprate province as Hindko language speakers. Pashtun hatred against Punjabi has forced Hindko minority claiming themselves as aboriginals speaking Hindu kush mountain language (Hindko) to distinguish them selve from Punjabi label. Same applies with Dogri and Pahari speakers of Kashmir whom kashmiri call Punjabi and ask them to go back to Punjab so in response they have labelled them selves as aboriginals speaking Dogri and Pahari languages. If you check this table you will be clear that all these Hindko Pahari Saraiki Dogri people for centuries declared themselves as Punjabi in Censuses.

@Kwamikagami: Nonetheless, Low German is still part of German language but still separate from Standard German. The same way Lahnda dialects are for Punjabi language. I believe the current title is misleading at best. There should also be an article for Standard Punjabi. (which is based on the Majhi dialect) This map is pretty accurate:

Census history of major languages

Rank	Sprache	1998 census	1981 census	1961 census	1951 census
1	Punjabi*	44.15%	48.17%	56.39%	57.08%
2	Pashto	15.42%	13.35%	8.47%	8.16%
3	Sindhi	14.1%	12.7%	12.59%	12.85%
4	Saraiki*	10.53%	9.54%
5	Urdu	7.57%	7.60%	7.57%	7.05%
6	Balochi	3.57%	3.02%	2.49%	3.04%

{* Saraiki and Hindko was included with Punjabi in the 1951 and 1961 censuses.}

Let me clear u the minor diffrences between Punjabi (proper) and Western Punjabi. I am calling them minor bcoz all words and sentence are same with following cosmatic diffrences; These diffrences are mainly due to urdu effecting either of them. Even these diffrences do not make them un intelligible bcoz both dialect speakers understand urdu being national language. EXAMPLES are as follows

• Eastern Punjabi uses Urdu Future tence suffix 'gay' while in western it is 'say'.

• Western Punjabi just like Urdu has no tones But Eastern has tones. I mean if u read same sentence in singing style this is called as eastren Punjabi

• Westren Punjabi never uses play conversions like urdu but standard punjabi do this like germen i.e. BH= p JH=ch GH=k e.g. BHERA (west Punjabi) = PERA (East Punjabi).

• Hindko Potowari Pahari and Dogri have limited Kashmiri vocablary borrowing while saraiki has Sindhi borrowings like it uses implosive (breath in) ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ while other Punjabi dialects use normal b d f g like urdu.

Example of hatred against Punjabi by Pashtun editors see article Karachi . Pashtun editors want to show Pashto speakers are more then Punjabi speakers so they have got page protection and added these misleading numbers in third column (2011) from a single unreliable source of a unknown friday news paper in which a pashtoon journalist with out any recent census of 20 million city, declares pashtun 25%, against 10% in last official census. Interestly, friday times writer has claimed Pashtun 7 million. Then using mathmatics we get karachi population 28 million (which is a hyper exagerated figure not supported by any source, maximum estimate of karachi population is 20 million as per few sources. See this table as currently being ENFORCED in Karachi article.

Rank	Sprache	2011 estimate	1998 census	Speakers	1981 census	Speakers
1	Urdu	45%	48.52%	4,497,747	54.34%	2,830,098
2	Pashto	25.02%	11.42%	981,000	8.71%	453,628
3	Punjabi		13.94%	1,292,335	13.64%	710,389
4	Sindhi	7%	7.22%	669,340	6.29%	327,591
5	Balochi		4.34%	402,386	4.39%	228,636
6	Saraiki		2.11%	195,681	0.35%	18,228
	Others		12.44%	1,153,126	12.27%	639,560
	Alle	100%	100%	9,269,265	100%	5,208,132

39.47.149.39 (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

References

Proper topic of article

Before this move from July, the article's title used to contain the term Lahnda. And it was clear that the topic was the group of language varieties that goes by this name (see ethnologue entry for "Lahnda"). While Western Punjabi (which is the current title) is often used as a synonym for that, it also has another meaning. It can refer to the standard variety of Punjabi used in Pakistan. That's the meaning I see in the ethnologue entry for "Western Punjabi" as well as in the name of the Western Punjabi wikipedia.

Which of these two is the proper topic of the article? How could its title better reflect that? – Uanfala (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

First time in history Grierson used term Western Punjabi and for local use he translated it to Lahnda which mean western in Punjabi. so topic of article is western Punjabi a common English name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.86.210 (talk) 18:25, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

• As the topic is (and seems to have always been) the language group ("Lahnda"), I think it's best to resolve the ambiguity by moving back to Lahnda and turning Western Punjabi into a disambiguation page containing entries for Lahnda and for whatever article covers the Standard Punjabi of Pakistan (at present, that seems to be Punjabi language). Any thoughts? – Uanfala (talk) 12:18, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Then may be we have to change name of Western Punjab to Lahndistan ? Oh really ? I Oppose — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.86.210 (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 August 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved DrStrauss talk 17:33, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

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Western Punjabi → Lahnda – Partially reverting the undiscussed move from last year. The article is about a linguistically defined group of languages that has been equally often referred to as Landa and as Western Punjabi. The latter term however has taken on a new set of meanings in the last decade or so, and can now refer either to the language group ( = Lahnda, the topic of the current article), or more broadly to the whole set of Punjabi varieties spoken in Pakistan (whether Lahnda or not), or narrowly to the Pakistani variety of Standard Punjabi (itself not belonging to Lahnda). This ambiguity has resulted in no end of confusion since the move, evident in the article's editing history. Just noting that I don't think it should be moved to either of its exact previous titles of Lahnda language or Lahnda languages (which it has oscillated between) – the former is a misnomer, the latter sounds awkward, and neither is common in current usage. – Uanfala 01:11, 13 August 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 04:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support per nom. However, is the Pothwari dialect classified as Lahnda? Or is Lahnda only limited to Hindko and Saraiki dialect? This must be clarified in this article using reliable references. Khestwol (talk) 11:32, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
  • All classifications I've seen treat Pothwari as part of Lahnda, but the boundary between Lahnda and Eastern Punjabi is a rather fuzzy one, so it's not surprising that Shackle (in the 1979 paper linked in the article) should write that Pothwari "is often so close to Panjabi that any attempt to maintain the Lahndi scheme ought probably to reckon it as 'Lahndi merging into Panjabi'." I've been thinking of creating a composite map of the various ways Lahnda has been delineated in the literature, but I don't really know when I'll have the time to get around to that. – Uanfala 15:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
    • We might as well put Pothwari into Eastern Punjabi then. Currently there is no article exclusively for Eastern Punjabi. If there was, I don't know if it would claim Pothwari as Eastern Punjabi. Also, there is a problem with "Pahari-Pothwari", a main language in Azad Kashmir. Is Pahari-Pothwari a dialect of Pothwari or a dialect of Pahari languages? Interesting, both these articles (Pothwari, and Pahari languages) seem to claim Pahari-Pothwari as their own dialect. Both can't be true. Khestwol (talk) 16:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. I came across this edit request recently, which was turned down due to lack of consensus. There was also Ethnologue, a 2017 source that shows the #10-ranked Lahnda as the header name of a language group that includes Northern Hindko, Pahari-Potwari, Saraiki and Western Punjabi. So it's time for us to accept that the documents of the 19th and 20th centuries have been updated, and that Lahnda is now considered by linguistic scientists as the cover name for W. Punjabi, et al. I also agree with the proposer, Uanfala, that both "language" and "languages" are, in this case, misleading and unnecessary disambiguation for the term "Lahnda".  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  14:57, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Refactor of page to Lahandi

I am making a note here since the changes I am making are quite substantial, but I am updating the article to further disambiguate the subject matter this article refers to, made clear by the move proposal above. There are multiple ways in which the terms "Lahnda" or "Lahandi" have been used, but the historical uses of the term by language surveyors such as George A. Grierson, the use of the term by the ISO 639 standard as a "macrolanguage," and the use of the term "Western Punjabi" as synonymous with Shahmukhi or Punjabi in Pakistan all differ from the subject of this article, which is the discernable differences in language between western and eastern regions of Punjab broadly (not related at all to current political boundaries, not justified by Grierson and writers prior, and not cited by SIL/ISO). To that end, I am changing the article title to Lahandi, as Bhardwaj's Punjabi: A Comprehensive Grammar explains, Lahandi is the preferred term by Indian linguistics as the grammatical gender for language in Punjabi is feminine, while Lahnda implies a masculine gender. I am also removing the ISO 639 identifiers from the infobox as there is no evidence that they can be understood as referring to the same subject, especially considering they regard Lahnda as a separate "macrolanguage" having a different lineage from Punjabi as opposed to being a subclass of the Punjabi language. It is possible the ISO 639 macrolanguage merits its own article, but sources on that specific topic are less comprehensive and often unreliable due to conflation of differing concepts, so that information would likely be better suited as an item in a larger list article. --Middle river exports (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

You must seek consensus before making such page moves, especially that it's obvious from this page that the article title has been intensely discussed in the past. I've restored the established title. As to other issues you bought up, I'm not certain Bhardwaj's assertion should be given more weight than all the other sources referred to in the article. Please discuss. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)