Talk:Conservatism/Archive 7

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Archive 7

Request to Revise and Expand Article and Discussions over semantics and "no true scotsman"

When it comes to this article, there has been a considerable lack of clarity on the topic. My main concern is the assertion that "conservatism" and the political right means very different things in different countries. While it may be true that conservatives in different countries in different period of time had a variety of ideas that are wide and conflicting, conservatism as a whole and in terns of principle around the world have little to no difference. People in this article have the tendency to focus on specific ideas or plank certain conservative groups have and determine rather or not that group is conservative or not. This is a folly since people can share the same idea or principle but can differ on how that principle can be realized. No one doubts the communism of Trotsky and Stalin despite being the vocal points of a major split in that ideology. No one doubts the liberalism of the politics of John Stuart Mill despite having quasi-socialist ideas in his later career. To assume that we should retain a conservatism based of the ideas of those in the late 18th century is a mistake since say for instance if conservatism was all just 'throne-and-alter', there will be no conservative parties today because republicanism and secularism are the norm. Where it come to the bare bones of the argument, the basics of conservatism and the parties of the political right changed little since its inception and current parties around the world today considered conservative and to the right share and awful lot in common. DemitreusFrontwest (talk) 05:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This is interesting, but you need a source, and you need to say what this unifying principle of conservatism is.Rick Norwood (talk) 22:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The main view of conservatism is that it arose as a reaction to liberalism and held a specific set of values. Re your comment "there will be no conservative parties today", that is largely correct. Conservative parties have largely died out. Where they have survived, such as in the U.K., throne and altar have often also survived, although in a much weakened state and the conservative ideology has managed to absorb a great degree of liberalism. The UK party today for example has the Cornerstone Group (Faith, Flag, and Family) and the Tory Reform Group which draws on the democratic Toryism of Disraeli, but the Thatcherite group was more likely to draw on 19th century liberals than actual conservatives.

TFD (talk) 02:40, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Then that would be contending that political ideologies are static and can never change and adapt. By that logic, social liberalism (the liberalism held by American liberals, Canadian liberals under and since Pierre Trudeau, Danish Social Liberal Party, modern Norwegian Liberals, Japan's JDP, British liberals since 1906) is not true liberalism since it deviates from classical liberal tenets in that expanded government is needed to help citizens and that the market economy should be regulated. By the same token, Lenin is not a true Marxist since he facilitated a revolution in a nation Marx did not consider 'modern' or 'developed'. Political ideologies adapt with the times and conservatism is unique in that it does that well. The notion that Conservative parties have 'largely died out' based on the original "throne and alter" is not true since liberals have largely moved on from parliamentarianism and disestablishment. Also is it worth noting about the overstating of differences in 19th century conservatives and liberals when it comes to certain political and economic issues. After all, the Peelites were conservatives that supported free trade and Gladstone started his political career as a Tory. The conservatives in Britain held disagreements with each other when it comes to specific things in politics and economics but then Thatcherites can draw liniage between them and previous conservatives that held their views. (talk) 10:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Ideologies indeed evolve. For most Conservative parties however, they did not evolve fast enough and died out, e.g., in Germany, Chile and Quebec. The parties that you call conservative evolved too mostly out of classical liberalism and are still within the liberal tradition. While 19th century Tories indeed adopted liberal economics, they saw the entrepreneurial class as inferior to the aristocracy. Similarly, modern Communist governments also adopted liberal economics, yet we do not call them liberals or conservatives. TFD (talk) 15:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

What is your indication that largely did not evolve and died out? An ideology adopting certain planks of other ideologies, even rival ones, does not mean that the former ideology is the later one. Conservatism developed and matured as a philosophy than just throne and alter to be involve in other issues. You're making the mistake that conservatism is a single issue ideology and it's not. (talk) 10:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I just provided three examples and there are more in the article. What is your definition and where did you get it? TFD (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

There are conservative parties in Germany, Chile and Quebec. (talk) 4:45, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The German National People's Party (formerly the German Conservative Party), the National Party (Chile, 1966–94) (formerly the Conservative Party (Chile)) and the Union Nationale (Quebec) (formerly the Conservative Party of Quebec (historical)) are all defunct. TFD (talk) 03:37, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

All major sources on the defining characteristics of conservatism point to: support for a state religion, or at least a belief that the state should support the most popular religion; support for the upper class, either in the form a state favors to the upper class, in terms of tax breaks and various other incentives, or at least a belief that the state should get out of the way, and allow the upper class to dominate by means of its wealth and social influence; and a preference for the values of the past over against "modernism" in all its forms, or at least a belief that all change should be gradual, and that government should not support "progress". All three of these can be encapsulated in a belief that the past is better than the present, and that we need to return to the way things were in the good old days.

The majority of young people embrace modernism. I don't know much about conservatism in Germany, Chile, and Quebec, but I assume that what The Four Deuces is saying is that the conservatives in those three countries fought against modernism and lost. In the US, the conservatives compromised -- they combined with the economic liberals under the blanket name conservative. The economic liberals were willing to accept laws against abortion, bussing, assisted suicide, and in some cases contraception in exchange for the lower taxes and less regulation that was their main issue. In the US, we now have a libertarian/conservative coalition which still cannot win a national election, but is dominant in the poorer and more rural states. Is this what you mean, DemitreusFrontwest, in saying that "conservatism is not a single issue ideology"? That it has joined with libertarianism? Rick Norwood (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Where does the quote about the good old days come from? Just curious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.40.184 (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Here is the quote from the Britannica which supports the first paragraph of this article. "Conservatism is a preference for the historically inherited rather than the abstract and ideal. This preference has traditionally rested on an organic conception of society—that is, on the belief that society is not merely a loose collection of individuals but a living organism comprising closely connected, interdependent members. Conservatives thus favour institutions and practices that have evolved gradually and are manifestations of continuity and stability. Government’s responsibility is to be the servant, not the master, of existing ways of life, and politicians must therefore resist the temptation to transform society and politics. This suspicion of government activism distinguishes conservatism not only from radical forms of political thought but also from liberalism, which is a modernizing, antitraditionalist movement dedicated to correcting the evils and abuses resulting from the misuse of social and political power."

This part of the lead contradicts the premise that conservatism supports an organic view of society: "There is no single set of policies that are universally regarded as conservative, because the meaning of conservatism depends on what is considered traditional in a given place and time. Thus conservatives from different parts of the world—each upholding their respective traditions—may disagree on a wide range of issues." It is a different definition of conservatism and should say so. TFD (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Comparison of conservatism in four countries

The section Conservatism#Comparison of conservatism in four countries, which compares modern France, Russia, the UK and the U.S. appears to be original research. First, it is not clear that all the parties listed are conservative or that the positions listed are core principles. French conservatives for example are called "strong defenders of republicanism", while U.K. conservatives "reject[] conservatism." But French conservatives only agreed on republicanism because they could not agree on which line should assume the throne and restoring the monarchy today would be absurd, while in the U.K., where the Queen still reigns, even the socialists support monarchy. Then again UKIP (which is included under UK) is the least pro-monarchy party of them all.

I suggest removing it and only have such a section if it can be sourced to a text that makes comparisons.

TFD (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

No objection here.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

we can keep it--it has been revised with new info & cites. The text does not make OR comparisons of the sort "Britain is more conservative than France." Rjensen (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Progressive conservatism

The section Conservatism#Progressive conservatism is a summary of a former article, "Progressive conservatism" which was deleted as synthesis at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Progressive conservatism, and is now a re-direct to Compassionate conservatism. It combines such facts as the Tory party in Canada was called the "Progressive Conservative Party" after a former Progressive Party premier became leader of the Conservative Party and a few examples of conservatives who were arguably progressive.

I suggest deleting this section.

TFD (talk) 03:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Is the content verified? If no, than WP:BURDEN. If yes, than we should discuss if it is WP:FRINGE or given undue weight.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The relevant policy is synthesis. You need a source that says when Cameron says he is a "progressive conservative" he means the same thing as what Canadians meant when they said they were "Progressive Conservatives." TFD (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Civil Society

So, I check this page from time to time. Is it my imagination, or did Conservatism used to have 'civil society' listed in it's key concepts, and has been recently replaced with the obviously much more slanted and less accurate term 'conformity'? It should be obvious that conformity doesn't apply to conservatism any more than it does to any other ideology in places where that ideology is dominant. I don't want to set off some sort of fit or war by changing it back as a nobody, so I just thought I'd ask. 184.153.188.173 (talk) 00:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it must be your imagination. TFD (talk) 00:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think WP:VER applies here. Can we find reliable sources where civil society is essential to Conservatism in every nation where it is practiced?

It is mentioned in the Fiscal Conservatism section, and there are numerous reliable sources that use the words conservatism and "civil society" close together, so there might be something here.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The sources on google do not all say that conservatism supports civil society. Some say it does not. A google search that shows words used close together should be approached with caution. In any case, it is not all clear to me what "civil society" means in this context. Rick Norwood (talk) 16:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree in this matter with Rick Norwood, Rjensen (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A closer examination of the sources might be in order. What I am saying is that it shouldn't be dismissed out right without more in-depth examination of what reliable sources say.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The onus is on editor wanting to add the information to show sources for it. TFD (talk) 02:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Here are some sources that appear to support civic society as being part of the conservatism concept:

• Don E. Eberly; Ryan Streeter (1 January 2002). The Soul of Civil Society: Voluntary Associations and the Public Value of Moral Habits. Lexington Books. pp. 48–49. ISBN 978-0-7391-0424-8.
• Michael Edwards (29 August 2011). The Oxford Handbook of Civil Society. Oxford University Press. pp. 111–112. ISBN 978-0-19-539857-1.
• Fred Powell (2013). The politics of civil society (Second edition). Policy Press. pp. 11–12. ISBN 978-1-4473-0714-3.

--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I gather "civil society" refers to volunteer groups and clubs. The sources you cite, RightCowLeftCoast, mention as examples labor unions, church groups, and social clubs. There is no suggestion that conservatives are more likely to join such organizations than liberals, though the Oxford Handbook suggests that in modern times, conservatives have been pushing (and attempting to redefine) civil society in order to get out the vote. Here is a quote: After discussing such examples as the AFL-CIO, the AARP, and the PTA, the author goes on to say "Finally, voluntary groups founded in the 1970s and 1980s adopted new forms of organization. Some -- such as public law groups, think tanks, foundations, and political action committees -- are not membership groups at all. Many others are staff-centered associations that have few, if any, chapters, and recruit most supporters individually via the mail or media messages. ... Recently proliferating associations have other telling features. Even when they claim substantial numbers of adherents, they rarely have chapters, or they have very sparse networks of subnational affiliates. ... To the degree that there is any exception to the civic transformations I have just recounted, it is on the conservative side of U.S. civil society. Professionally managed advocacy groups have proliferated across the board, but present-day conservatives have done more than liberals to renew or reinvent massively large, popularly rooted federations. The National Right to Life Committee, the Christian Coalition, and the National Rifle Association are all extensive chapter-based membership federations that have flourished in recent times, and the Tea Party movement is a very recent addition to this panoply. ... One unabashedly liberal membership federation to experience comparable massive growth in recent decades is the National Education Association, a teachers' union."

So, something referencing this paragraph might be added to the article, but not in the lead, and not claiming that "civil society" is characteristic of conservatives but not of liberals

Rick Norwood (talk) 13:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You would need a passage from a source about conservatism, not passing references to conservatives in books about civil society. It is true that traditional conservatives supported medieval institutions and "corporations" that were given some government powers. So for example the established church could run health welfare and education, have legal immunity, raise taxes and even run ecclesiastical courts and prisons. There is no indication that U.S. conservatives recommend transferring powers of the state to non-government organizations, just that they recommend contracting out responsibilites both to for profit and not-for-profit groups. But their ideological motivation is traditionally liberal - efficiency and to reduce the size of government. TFD (talk) 13:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree. The sources describe Reagan and especially Thatcher as neoliberal. Reagan self-identified as libertarian. As far as I know, Thatcher did not, and across the pond the term neoliberal was much more common. Also, as TFD points out above, neoliberal is much more specific than libertarian. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm willing to accept that 'conformity' was always there and I am simply remembering wrong (though I'd swear I learned about the association between the terms "Conservatism" and "Civil Society" FROM Wikipedia and now that connection is lost). But none of the above justifies why 'conformity' fits conservatism well enough to be listed as one of it's key concepts. Do we have reliable sources where conservatives claim that conformity is central to what they believe? Does history show us that conformity is more important to conservative societies than, say, socialist or communist societies? Following the link to 'conformity' and reading it, it talks about groupthink and caving to social pressure, and doesn't reference politics at all. Many of you just argued that we can't include civil society as a key concept in conservatism (despite the Burke quote and so on) because it's not particular enough to conservatism. Conformity as defined by wikipedia certainly is not either and I would ask that it be removed on the same grounds described above. 2604:6000:150B:E0BD:4D02:87E3:2A7A:1AF5 (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This article is not just about political conservatism, but also about social conservatism, which denotes conformity to social mores. The opposite of socially conservative is avant-garde. Thus one dictionary definition of conservative: "moderate, avoiding extremes". Rick Norwood (talk) 11:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Collins provides "conservative" as a synonym of "conformist." It also mentions that supporters of the Church of England were called "Conformists".[1] Liberals of course are mostly Nonconformist. However, it is questionable whether Thatcher or Reagan were conservatives. Both claimed they became Conservatives because the Liberals had abandoned their values. So they meet the definition of situational conservatives, supporting the status quo or status quo ante, but not traditional conservatives, supporting pre-liberal institutions such as civil society. As Thatcher said, "There is no such thing as society." TFD (talk) 14:52, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

neoliberalism or libertarianism

A recent edit changed descriptions of European conservative economics from "neoliberal" to "libertarian". The sources say "neoliberal", so I reverted the changes, but I would like to see referenced sources that discuss what the difference, if any, is. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Libertarian, like liberal, is a term that can have different meanings and when using the term it should be clear which meaning is intended. Neoliberalism has a specific meaning, it refers to the policies introduced by Thatcher, Reagan and others and followed by their successors. TFD (talk) 15:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

"neoliberalism" is only used by the enemies of the concept... That makes it the Pio the term that should be avoided Unless you are talking about those enemies. Rjensen (talk) 19:03, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

No one questions that a new paradigm emerged with the Thatcher and Reagan administrations. What other term would you use to call it? They did not call themselves libertarians and certainly Tony Blair, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama did not either. It is not paricularly pejorative. It just means returning to 19th century liberalism. TFD (talk) 13:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

We have to follow the sources. Neoliberal was not pejorative at the time and neoliberal is what the sources use to describe Thatcher's policies. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Many political terms began as pejorative or acquired pejorative connotations. TFD (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

"Neoliberal" is a pejorative word, like "ultraliberal". "It just means returning to 19th century liberalism" : we say just "classical liberalism". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azertopius (talk • contribs) 21:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Except it is not a return to 19th century liberalism. For example, the welfare state remains in place and there is no return to the gold standard. And government spending in the U.S. has gone from around 5% of GDP in the 19th century to over 40% today. Not only that but many of the ideas associated with classical liberalism, such as Malthusian population theory, became obsolete long before the 19th century ended, partly through the efforts of the Austrian school, which would go on to develop what they originally chose to call neoliberalism. TFD (talk) 01:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe that "neoliberal" is only used by enemies of the policy involved. I've been watching and have (almost) never seen it used by a neutral observer or by a supporter. That makes it feel the term of this sort that loads the Wikipedia article in favor of the editors own political preferences, which is not allowed here. In 2015, "libertarian" fits the policies pretty well, and is not a POV term. "The term is generally used by those who oppose it. People do not call themselves neoliberal; instead, they tag their enemies with the term." says Jonathan Arac in Peter A. Hall and Michèle Lamont in Social Resilience in the Neoliberal Era Hardcover (2013)p xvii. Rjensen (talk) 03:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

If, in fact, Maggie Thatcher was a libertarian, there should be a source that says that. If not, and if neoliberal is really a negative word, we need a more neutral word that is sourced. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I've added an additional reference, from the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics, whose entry on "neoliberalism" does not make any suggestion that the phrase is derogatory. Rick Norwood (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Jonathan Arac says the term is generally used by those who oppose it, not that it is exclusively used by them. The book, which has "neoliberal" in its title, was published by Cambridge University Press, the project was developed by the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) and includes the work of many scholars across many disciplines. CIFAR is sponsored by the governments of Canada, Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta and receives funding from major corporations in Canada. The fact that a source of this stature, which is hardly an enemy of neoliberalism, although some of the writers may be, shows the mainstream use of the term. TFD (talk) 01:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

We now have one example of a source that tries to be neutral. N=1. The count on its use by friends of the pop policy = N=0. The book clearly states that "neoliberal" is generally used by the enemies & and states that it is not used by the friends of the policy. They're trying to break away from the status quo, and maybe indeed the term will become standard someday. But Arac says today it generally flags an enemy of the term. There's an excellent discussion and a recent Oxford dictionary of geography: ‘Neoliberalism’ is very much a critics term: it is virtually never used by those whom the critics describe as neoliberals. Noel Castree (2013). A Dictionary of Human Geography. Oxford University Press. p. 340.

In this very talk page, I believe that all of the editors who use the term are in fact hostile to it. Am I wrong? will some editors speak up to say he has been using the term neoliberal in a friendly way? Rjensen (talk) 02:15, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) IMHO we should find a more-neutral term, as suggested by Rjensen, the sections in discussion should not be defined and be heavily favored in the view of its opponents (just as much that it shouldn't be pro-its subject either).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:32, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I searched three books about Thatcher on amazon. None of them contained either the word "neoliberal" or the word "libertarian". Maybe we need another word. Why not just "conservative"? That seems to be the word almost everyone uses. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

lots of scholars say Thatcher was libertarian in the sense of Friedman & Hayek (whom she admired & coinsulted): 1) "Even beyond a set of pro-American, pro-libertarian instincts, Thatcher understood ...." Aldous, Reagan and Thatcher p 42 (2012); 2) "Here we have both Margaret Roberts 'the paternalist' and Margaret Roberts 'the libertarian'. In this, the young candidate was in fact reflecting the ideological tensions within her party at the time." Filby, God and Mrs Thatcher; 3) "strong evidence that there was a slowly but steadily building resentment against the size and style of government social provision which might be answered by a libertarian appeal to greater individual choice...." Nicholas Wapshott & ‎George Brock Thatcher 1983; 4) but there is a contrary view of her too: "Thatcher, more of an authoritarian Conservative than a libertarian Conservative, gave lip service to the rhetoric of the minimalist state, but her activist government expanded the power of the central state" Pugliese, The Political Legacy of Margaret Thatcher - 2003. I think "libertarian" works best for her economics Rjensen (talk) 13:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

All of these examples are equivocal, and the last says she was more conservative than libertarian, which is the change I suggested.

I trust Maggie Thatcher did not "coinsult" Hayek.  :) Rick Norwood (talk) 13:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

OOps :) -- no she did not "co-insult" Hayek, she consulted him & praised him. In my reading of the biographies, Thatcher has a traditional/conservative attitude toward authority and a favorable view of the power of the state, especially in dealing with labor unions and foreign enemies. However her main fame is her economic policy and that is pretty heavily libertarian. It is very hard to find a top Western leader who is 100 percent libertarian and zero percent conservative. Democratic politics involves too much negotiation and compromise for that. What I'm saying is that she was conservative outside of economics, and libertarian inside of economic policy. Rjensen (talk) 13:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The text is, "The Conservatives generally accepted those policies until the 1980s. In the 1980s the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher, guided by neoliberal economics, reversed many of Labour's programmes." We cannot say "conservative", because that would imply that Churchill, Macmillan and Heath were not really conservatives, while Thatcher was. But Conservative opponents of Thatcher saw the shift being toward liberalism and away from conservatism. The problem with the term libertarian is that it can have different meanings depending on context. I do not think it would be clear if used here. Similarly the term "liberal economics" could be misinterpreted as Keynsianism. Perhaps "neo-classical liberal economics" would be a better description. TFD (talk) 13:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree here with TFD We need to change it. "neo-classical liberal economics" Is a bit too fancy for the episode...How about "free market policies as advocated by her advisers Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek." Rjensen (talk) 13:23, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I've been reading up on the subject, and the word "libertarian" in Great Britain seems to be mainly associated with the libertarian socialists, which certainly would not include Thatcher. I like Rjensen's formulation, "free-market policies". Rick Norwood (talk) 15:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

There is an interesting article, "Thatcher, Hayek & Friedman" on the official Thatcher Foundation website. It uses the term "economic liberalism", but that might be confusing for U.S. readers. It points out too that Thatcher was influenced by Hayek as a political and economic philosopher, rather than an economist. {Are many people aware of his economic theories?) She does not appear to have been a doctrinaire Friedmanite either. So perhaps we could just say "free market policies", even though that sometimes included intervention in the market. TFD (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If neoliberal is seen as a derogatory phrase, is there a more neutral term that can be verified for usage? The last thing we should be doing is creating a phrase that carries non-neutral tone. It would be like substituting African American with the N-word (not that I support such a thing).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:03, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

"free-market policies" has been proposed by myself & Rick Norwood. I think it is quite accurate & neutral, is one used by the principals, & has no trace of a neologism or made-up term. Rjensen (talk) 04:37, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2015

81.82.207.213 (talk) 14:30, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as you have not requested a change. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka ^{Talk to me!} _{See what I have done} 14:39, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Who are the 'conservative groups' opposing Obamatrade?

DrudgeReport "More conservative groups come out against...[ObamaTrade]"

Headline-1: HERITAGE ACTION AND AMERICANS FOR LIMITED GOVERNMENT PLEA TO SENATE: VOTE ‘NO’ ON OBAMATRADE

• http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/22/heritage-action-and-americans-for-limited-government-plea-to-senate-vote-no-on-obamatrade/

QUOTE: "The Senate is set to vote on the Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) legislation the House passed last week that gives President Obama fast track trade authority to finalize his trade negotiations without Congressional amendments." [Vote is tomorrow.] -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 01:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC) -- PS: FYI for future editing. New NEWS today, for future editing.

Too insignificant to discuss in an article about conservatism with a world-wide perspective. TFD (talk) 01:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

agreed. the text does not give any ideological reasons for opposition. It looks like pure partisanship, esp after conservatives in 2012 supported the original author of Obamnacare (Romney). Rjensen (talk) 01:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

QUESTIONS: So Obamatrade does not have worldwide implications? There are not a lot of other articles saying Conservatives oppose the Obama bill that no one is able to read? This isn't the article that talks about Conservatism in America? There is a better WP article for American conservatism? -- Just asking, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia's recentism policy is relevant here. Wikipedia is not a newsfeed. For your second question. see Conservatism in the United States. Abierma3 (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That's why I said, "For future editing." I'll go the the other article. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

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Criticism of

Every other ideology has a page, or at least part of page, detailing the criticisms of the ideology. Why isn't there one for conservatism? Has this ideology simply not received much academic scrutiny? Epa101 (talk) 18:14, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Unsourced, very biased

This article cites very few sources, and seems to be very incorrect. Conservatism is not about "keeping things the way they were", it is, for most people, about preserving individual liberties and responsibility, much like classical liberalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.251.128.78 (talk) 01:53, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Except it's not. As explained in the article, the American Right, believing that individual liberties and responsibility were the way things were, chose in the 1950s to call themselves conservatives. There is a separate article about Conservatism in the United States. And this article has 146 footnotes. TFD (talk) 02:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, the final line under "The United States" reads; "In 2016 election, Donald Trump's presidential campaign has expanded the conservatism in the United States, which includes protection of United States industries and develop the grassroots movement in the working classes." Aside from being poorly written, it provides no citation. Will be removed if citation cannot be provided. 2602:306:C4CC:D6B0:C96A:A2E0:4291:1E2 (talk) 17:22, 8 February 2017 (UTC)RL

Someone beat you to it. Considering the brief mention of conservatism in this article, adding Trump would be undue recentism. TFD (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

conservatism and race

It is understandable that people who identify with a particular ideology want to airbrush out of the history of that ideology people who hold beliefs that are now largely discredited. Communists would like to forget Stalin, conservatives would like to forget Hitler. But an encyclopedia should not be edited by those who wish to rewrite history. The people who supported slavery rightly called themselves conservative, because they were trying to preserve an existing institution. The people who opposed the Civil Rights movement rightly called themselves conservative, because they were trying to preserve an existing institution. And today, while most conservatives say they are not racist, most racists say they are conservative.

The referenced view is that conservatism is not specific to the social values it espouses, but is rather the view that the way things are should not be lightly changed. And many conservatives say that the way things were, in the good old days, were better than they way things are now. The list of "beliefs" that make one a conservative is therefore dubious, whether the claim is that conservatives believe in "slavery" or that conservatives believe in "freedom". Very few people today support slavery, but when slavery was the established system, the people who supported it called themselves conservative. Almost everyone in the US today believes in freedom, so to say conservatives believe in freedom is to suggest that they believe in freedom more than anybody else, a view not supported by the evidence.

The problem with the list, subject to so much editing, is not what is on the list, but the fact that there is a list at all. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:39, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I think the article should be clear that conservatism has more than one meaning. You are referring to positional conservatism. In the 1980s, Reaganites, hard line Communists, the ayatollahs and anti=Thatcher Tories were all described as conservatives, but there was a huge different in what they wanted to conserve. TFD (talk) 23:11, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Communists would like to forget Stalin, conservatives would like to forget Hitler. Linking 'conservatives' as a whole with Hitler is mistaken. Communists are anti-democratic totalitarians, Stalin was a psychopathic mass murdering totalitarian and so was Hitler. Conservatives believe in democracy and progress that doesn't 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. People who are right-wing and call themselves conservative but don't believe in democracy and individual rights and freedoms are not conservatives - they are fascists. Just as on the left there are Marx inspired democratic socialists and totalitarian socialists aka Communists.

The list of people is inaccurate

Is there any reason why the list of people in the "Part of a series on Conservatism" box contains so many obscure fascists and Nazi sympathizers (if not, perhaps, to poison the well)? I take the list to be a compilation of persons who are noteworthy conservatives, but many of them are neither noteworthy nor conservative in any sense. I would go in and remove those entries, but I figured I would clear the air here first.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hisokathorongil (talk • contribs) 18:55, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know which people you have in mind, but keep in mind that this article is about conservatism world wide, and that in many countries conservatism means something quite different from what it means in the US. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know who you have in mind either and would appreciate it you mention some. TFD (talk) 00:29, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I just went through all the people yesterday and have now gone through the list yet again. Take a look at the following people:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Fraga_Iribarne

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Guzm%C3%A1n

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Rol%C3%A3o_Preto (This is perhaps the most perplexing if you actually read the summaries)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenio_Vegas_Latapie

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Abascal

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Maurras

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Moeller_van_den_Bruck

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Bainville

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Ludovici

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Calhoun

A collection of fascist/Nazi/Francoist sympathizers, dictator supporters, anti-semitic crackpots, and a slavery supporting Democrat. I don't see what's especially conservative about them.Hisokathorongil (talk) 21:33, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Technically, this discussion should be on Template talk:Conservatism sidebar. But I agree that there's no need to have over 100 names in a sidebar. Rather than simply removing the most controversial, I'd rather see a proposal to replace the list with a new list of at most 25 names. Also, I'd like to see "philosophers" separated from political leaders. Power~enwiki (talk) 21:45, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not extremely familiar with the Wikipedia editing pages and processes, so apologies for raising this in the wrong place. I agree with your suggestion: a list of 25 or so important and influential conservative political philosophers and writers would be ideal. Hisokathorongil (talk) 22:47, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

You won't be able to find agreement on which 25 people to include. I think it should go but you are right it is better discussed elsewhere. TFD (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Hisokathorong: you hurt your cause by wanting to remove John C. Calhoun. He was indeed a slavery supporting Democrat, but at a time when the Democratic party, at least in the South, was the conservative party, and the Republican party was the liberal party. Following Lyndon B. Johnson and the Civil Rights movement, the two parties did a little dance, and the 100% Democratic South became the 100% Republican South. I never heard of any of the other names on the list, and doubt they are important enough to be included. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Dubitable. What you've just described is what many conservatives would consider a myth, namely, that somehow there was a "big switch" in the late 1960s, when all the alleged bad, white, racist conservatives switched from the Democratic to the Republican party. Dinesh D'Souza challenges this narrative and so do more sober academics, like Shafer and Johnston in their book, The End of Southern Exceptionalism. The fact is that conservatives don't look to the Democratic party or figures like Calhoun when tracing their political and intellectual influences. What you're doing by suggesting that they must is, as I said in my OP, an example of poisoning the well.Hisokathorongil (talk) 22:47, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Calhoun is considered one of the top conservatives by Russell Kirk, author of the Conservative Mind. See Chapter Five, "Southern Conservatism: Randolph and Calhoun." Incidentally, whatever credibility D'Souza might have had in the 1980s, his recent writing has serious problems of credibility, according to mainstream commentators. TFD (talk) 01:15, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay, you can cite someone in support of that identification. It once again depends on what we mean by conservatism. I notice the list is dominated by paleocons and Catholic ultramontanists, even though conservatism has significant overlap, if not synonymity and identity in some cases, with classical liberalism, libertarianism, and, by dint of the label itself, neoconservatism. And yet, I see hide nor hair of Locke, Hamilton, Adams, Kristol, etc. I could be okay with Calhoun on the list, though it wouldn't be of my making, provided he's counterbalanced by people who aren't paleocons, ultramontanists, monarchists, racists, and so on, as the list is currently almost exclusively comprised of. Hisokathorongil (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The Republican Party didn't exist in Calhoun's era. As far as party ideology goes, I quote 30 Rock (which is definitely not a reliable source, but happens to be correct): "today's Republican Party would be unrecognizable to Lincoln. He fought a war to preserve federal authority over the states. That's not exactly small government." Power~enwiki (talk) 01:20, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

The fact remains that Lincoln is an immensely important figure for conservatives. Hisokathorongil (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

This article is about Conservatism, not about the Republican party. I agree with 30 Rock that even though modern Republicans call themselves "the party of Lincoln", Old Abe would not recognize them. But as for challenging the narrative of the "big switch", the Dixiecrats were part of a coalition that called themselves "the Conservative coalition". And the solidly Democratic South is now the solidly Republican South. So the American South did switch parties, why remaining staunchly conservative. I don't speculate on the motives. But we need to focus on your proposal to remove names from the list. I'm fine with removing all but Calhoun. The Four Deuces gives a good reference, Russell Kirk, for keeping Calhoun. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:57, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, it's not really about whether you agree that Lincoln would recognize the Republican party but about whether conservatives, by and large, claim him, and they do. I've already said my piece about the "big switch" myth, so I'll leave it there. Hisokathorongil (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Hisokathorongil, note that this article is about conservatism, not conservatism in the U.S., and it is questionable whether U.S. conservatism is part of conservatism or really a form of liberalism. Historically, conservatism supported pre-liberal institutions and traditions, such as monarchy, aristocracy, and the established church. TFD (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Sisters First: Stories from Our Wild and Wonderful Life

I've created a stub for Sisters First: Stories from Our Wild and Wonderful Life. Feel free to expand it if you're interested. I didn't add the WP Conservatism tag on the talkpage however, because I don't think this is a political book. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 17:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Corey Robin

I have removed corey robin. he is a self publicist and clearly him or his close friends change the wiki to make his nonsense prominent — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.147.131.126 (talk) 01:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

An editor has tried to remove the name of Corey Robin from the article, describing Dr. Robin as "a self edifying no mark named 'corey robin' who is pushing himself as an expert". Dr. Robin has a Ph.D. from Yale University, is the author of several books, and has written about political science for such respected publications as The London Review of Books, the New York Times, and The Nation. He is certainly not a "no mark" (whatever that means) and he is not "pushing himself as an expert", he is an expert. The only reason I can see for removing his names is that he is critical of conservatism. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

The Oxford University Press published his book on conservatism, which means he is an expert. This type of ad hominem attack is not constructive. TFD (talk) 00:47, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

So having published one book he (Or I presume YOU) is now the worlds foremost expert who You think is thye one that should be quoted as to be defining what conservatives think.There are vastly more important experts than the unknown American Corey robin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitebear1967 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

No one said he was the world's foremost expert. If you expect other editors to reply to you, I suggest your comment accurately and avoid insulting them. I'll post a welcome template on your talk page so that you can familiarize yourself with the project, if you have not already done so. TFD (talk) 21:12, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Is his view that common though? Sure he may be an expert but doesn't Undue Weight come into play? I'm not aware of his definition being universally accepted (though to be fair conservatism is poorly defined anyway, so as an alternate definition I guess it could pass) or even being uncontroversial. I mean if I recall correctly, he admitted his book was mainly about the United States and conservatives there. This would make it a poor fit for a universal definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.192.76.76 (talk) 22:27, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Note that this statement already has a second reference, with a source outside the US. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

In his book, The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Sarah Palin, Robin attempts to place American conservatism in the same category as English and European conservatism. So he is working with a universal definition. Russell Kirk essentially agrees in his 3rd canon of conservatism: "A conviction that society requires orders and classes that emphasize "natural" distinctions." TFD (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Shit sorry I completely forgot about this. I see what you mean though. Not sure one source from the Guardian newspaper really qualifies as sufficient but whatever (then again I've never heard of Quintin Hogg and he's up there, so it's not like I can claim he's more important than Robin and perhaps scholarship has been more interested in his arguments, either in a supportive or critical fashion). I wouldn't say Russell Kirk is really agreeing with Robin since Kirk seems to argue that a good society requires orders and classes because this will somehow make society better, whereas Robin's argument seems to be more that conservatism is the ideology of the powerful attempting to hold onto their power in the face of democratic threats (indeed Robin speaks of it as an attack on emancipatory ideologies and talks a lot about the links with pro-slavery ideologies in the US and modern American conservatism if I recall correctly). Robin's definition strikes me as closer to a sort of Marxist view of ideology (as an a instrument of the ruling class to justify their power and privilege) than what Kirk has in mind, in my view. Still not entirely convinced it's a good choice but then as I said, I've never heard of Quintin Hogg and he's there so *shrugs* 80.192.76.76 (talk) 18:02, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Hogg is better known as Lord Hailsham, the Lord Chancellor under Heath and most of the Thatcher years, although he first came to attention in the 1938 Oxford by-election, which was fought over appeasement. The dispute between conservatives and their detractors is whether the elites serve in the interests of society or in their own interests. We need to show both perspectives. Robin represents the latter point of view and although he is not in the same league as Hogg, the value is that it is from a recent and well-known work. The controversy over Robin's book (and there's controversy about any writers on the subject) is whether or not the description applies to modern U.S. conservatism or other modern variants such as Thatcherism. TFD (talk) 12:37, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

To-do list

Good idea. But it has only been used a couple times since it was created. If there are no objections I'll delete it. – Lionel^(talk) 10:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Donald Trump official portrait.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:08, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Paternalistic Conservatism

I am puzzled about these new edits, renaming "progressive conservatism" as "paternalistic conservatism". A google search shows more than five million hits for the former name, only a few hundred thousand hits for the latter. I'd never heard the phrase until it turned up in this article, so what it sounds like to me is an attempt to rename a movement in order to attack it. I'm tempted to revert, but I'm not a conservative, and I would rather a conservative made the edit. Is calling "progressive conservatism" by a new name a major movement, or a minor one? I hope someone here can answer this question. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Probably better just to call it Paternalism, since it's not really a form of conservatism but an aspect. I found three times more hits on Google books for conservative paternalism than paternal conservatism. The term progressive conservatism has been used to describe lots of things - David Cameron's supporters used it and it is the name of political parties in Canada. TFD (talk) 19:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

From what you say, it doesn't sound like it should be here at all. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:55, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Conservatism and religion/morality

This article doesn't really do a good job of explaining what conservatism is about. Conservatives don't support tradition for the sake of tradition or inequality for the sake of inequality. They support these things because they support moral order. Conservatives believe inequality is justified because it is part of a moral order. The moral aspect of conservatism is wholly missing from this article, despite the fact that most people in real life know there is a close link between conservatism and religion.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

There is a close tie between conservatism and religion, but not between conservatism and morality, as shown by the conservative support of President Trump. You may love Trump, but it would be hard to maintain that Trump is a moral person. The question, then, is whether there is any link between Christianity and morality. Many Christians I know are moral, but Christianity itself is generally immoral. I hardly need cite examples, but could easily do so from the news of the day, any day, any year, any century, for the past 2000 years. We can begin with St. Paul: "Slaves obey your masters." and end with the recently defrocked Cardinal McCarrick. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Well then, why don't we ask the people who most opposed conservatism what they believed? The Great Soviet Encyclopedia articles on idealism, materialism, philosophy, and dialectical materialism explain that materialism supports the political left while idealism, which they link to religion, supports the political right. Vladimir Lenin wrote in 1913: The philosophy of Marxism is materialism. Throughout the modern history of Europe, and especially at the end of the eighteenth century in France, where a resolute struggle was conducted against every kind of medieval rubbish, against serfdom in institutions and ideas, materialism has proved to be the only philosophy that is consistent, true to all the teachings of natural science and hostile to superstition, cant and so forth. The enemies of democracy have, therefore, always exerted all their efforts to “refute”, under mine and defame materialism, and have advocated various forms of philosophical idealism, which always, in one way or another, amounts to the defence or support of religion.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 15:12, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Marxism is largely based on the concept of historical materialism, and Marxists were influenced by Hegelianism's focus on rationality. Idealism assigns "crucial importance to the ideal or spiritual realm in its account of human existence".

The difference is not necessarily on ethics, but on a much different perception of reality. Dimadick (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

But the point is that the political left has tended to argue that society shapes the people (materialism) while the political right has tended to argue that people shape the society (idealism). Conservatives don't "support inequality" because they are all business owners or are just mean, they support it because they think people earned their wealth. Obviously leftists disagree and think socialism is morally superior, but even the founders of "scientific socialism" had to admit that belief in a spiritual moral order supports conservatism.

104.1.11.147 (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2019 (UTC) (Sorry I don't know why the signature changed)

Let me put it in a less confusing way. I am not saying that the political right has some sort of monopoly on morality. Again, many leftists are passionately moral about what they believe. What I am saying is that conservatives attach an independent significance to spiritual/psychological issues in society while leftists usually argue that such issues are of a secondary matter.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 12:52, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not a reliable sources. Examples of its misinformation abound. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, I agree it's not suitable for Wikipedia, I'm just using it to point out that even Marxists understand conservatism better than this article does.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 13:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Supporters of all ideologies support the things they do because to them it is the moral thing to do. I agree that supporting tradition for its own sake is irrational, but that's what conservative theorists from Burke to Kirk argued. TFD (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I am not saying that the political right has some sort of monopoly on morality. Again, many leftists are passionately moral about what they believe. What I am saying is that conservatives attach an independent significance to spiritual/psychological issues in society while leftists usually argue that such issues are of a secondary matter. Even hardcore Marxists acknowledge this.

As for the tradition argument made by conservative writers, it is pretty obvious that the tradition in question is based heavily on religion.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

In other words, the true conservative/right-wing position isn't "respect the hierarchies" (although some conservatives do argue that). The true conservative position is that "consciousness determines existence" and that the alleged existing hierarchies in society are not actually preventing people from having a successful life.

2602:306:8010:B930:2109:B8B9:7E00:190B (talk) 00:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

This is original research. Wikipedia relies on scholarly publications. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The first sentence is 100% wrong.

"Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization."

No, it absolutely is not.

It is a series of political philosophies that have been labeled "conservatism" but which differ greatly from one another. In the 1950s this meant a bit to the right of Eisenhower, who was a moderate Republican U.S. president. For many years it meant people who espoused beliefs like family values, law & order, a strong military, and maybe above all low taxes.

Now the meaning of the word has evolved so much that its current use means believing in a cult of personality, a revulsion to both facts and logical reasoning, and agreeing with whatever the leader of the personality cult says.

That is 100% different from what the word used to mean only a few years ago (like 25 years ago).2600:1700:E1C0:F340:2D34:2EF6:5E9A:41A0 (talk) 12:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

The article is about the ideology in all its manifestations throughout its history. No one is going to say that Burke and de Maistre were not conservatives because they did not see the world in the same way as Donald Trump. TFD (talk) 12:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

This is also Wikipedia, not a left-wing blog. It is supposed to be neutral and academic, not your opinion. -2600:1003:B103:F799:A951:A3D:46E4:D819 (talk) 20:09, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not my opinion, and I'm not even left-wing. It's that I've been around for a while (70+ years), and during that while, the definition of conservatism has changed drastically.

Therefore, it is inadvertently misleading to say that conservatism "is" what it used to mean. It would be correct to say that it was what it used to be (at least in the U.S.) and it is what it is now. Do you disagree with that?50.203.182.230 (talk) 19:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Let me add that I'm speaking specifically about political conservatism and not necessarily other kinds.50.203.182.230 (talk) 19:59, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

What does it mean today? TFD (talk) 20:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

"What does it mean today?" is the wrong question. The right question is, "What do reliable sources say." I'm sympathetic with Special:Contributions personal observations, but personal observations cannot be published in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a blog. Rick Norwood (talk) 10:48, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

"Modernism"

From the article's introduction:

>Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization. The central tenets of conservatism include tradition, human imperfection, hierarchy, authority, and property rights. Conservatives seek to preserve a range of institutions such as monarchy, religion, parliamentary government, and property rights, with the aim of emphasizing social stability and continuity. The more extreme elements—reactionaries—oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were".

The author mistakenly used the word "modernism" in the place of "progressivism". Modernism refers to novel philosophical and cultural perspectives that became popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Modernist meta-narratives were not inherently progressive and effectively catalyzed the rise of fascism. The wording should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:180:8200:2569:6C44:C0EF:7C73:8404 (talk) 02:53, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

While it can mean that, the most common meaning is "a practice, usage, or expression peculiar to modern times."[2] Progressive would be ambiguous, since it has different meanings. There are for example, people who call themselves progressive conservatives. Some support progressive policies such as gun control, same sex marriage and universal health care on the basis of social stability. TFD (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I (Mrtweedles (talk)) have sympathy with the original critique of using "modernism." I reacted to the word as being too specific. I do see the point of TFD's defense, but think it relies on too subtle a reading. The word is used here generically and isn't meant to identify a specific movement. However, the sense I drew when reading was as a reaction to specific movements, especially those fore-fronted by the term "postmodern."

Looking around for clarity didn't help much:

The Wikipedia article][3] is about a specific movement, which is why I presume it wasn't linked to:

"both a philosophical movement and an art movement that, along with cultural trends and changes, arose from wide-scale and far-reaching transformations in Western society during the late 19th and early 20th centuries"

Britannica[4] conflates the two senses: "Modernism, in the arts, a radical break with the past and the concurrent search for new forms of expression. Modernism fostered a period of experimentation in the arts from the late 19th to the mid-20th century", which is arguably generic but not what the earliest "conservatives" were reacting to; but also "The Modernist impulse is fueled in various literatures by industrialization and urbanization and by the search for an authentic response to a much-changed world", which is fairly specific; and "The term Modernism is also used to refer to literary movements other than the European and American movement of the early to mid-20th century", which is specific.

Google puts the Oxford's definition first, "modern character or quality of thought, expression, or technique", and then refers to two generic "movements", one in the arts and one in Catholicism.

If clarity and ease of reading are important, I think this "ism" should be explained. Below is my proposal.

Conservatism, generally is a tendency in political and social thought to advocate for traditional social institutions in response to attempts to modernize society and culture. Historically, those labeled as conservative held to the principles of human imperfection, hierarchy, authority, and property rights. However, conservatives variously seek to preserve a range of institutions such as monarchy, religion, parliamentary government, and property rights, with the aim of emphasizing social stability and continuity. The more extreme conservatives—reactionaries—oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were".

This language spells out what "modernism" means in this context ("attempts to modernize society") before using the term ("[reactionaries] oppose modernism"). It also moves the term from a "philosophy" to a "tendency in thinking", which I think is more defensible, because "conservatism" reappears in the history delineated in this article more as a tendency when reacting to modernization than as any definable philosophy ("the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline", cf. google/Oxford). It also removes a technical term "elements". --Mrtweedles (talk) 21:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Requesting wider attention

I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.

Posting message here too for neutrality sake

Thanks and greetings

Bookku (talk) 07:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Odd snippet shows up in Bing search engine (but not Google)

I searched the term "conservative political philosophy" and got hits on the first page for Wikipedia (of course). I was surprised to see that the snippet appearing on Bing started with this:

Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting arrogance,prejudice and petty behaviour. The central tenets of conservatism include social conformity to harmful traditions, the delusion of loyalty, the delusion of hierarchy, the social construct of authority, and the idea that having property rights means that you can trample over people because “it’s my house”.

Clicking on the link shows that the actual article contains no such text. Did it at one time, and this is merely Bing's private copy of that time which has not been updated as yet? Or is it possible something else is going on?

I was surprised enough to try the same search term in another Edge tab and got the same result. I tried it with Google and Firefox and there was no such inflammatory snippet.

Teamtempest (talk) 16:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, a troll wrote that[5] and it was reversed 7 minutes later. Likely the Bing search engine picked it up and that's what you see. It will disappear next time Bing searches the article. TFD (talk) 16:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Leftist Writers and Rightist Writers Talk Past Each Other Because They focus Differently on Outcome and Process

The description of conservatism by its outcomes is not recognizable to conservatives because they understand their ideology in terms of process. Both ideological wings generally are interested in the same things: equality. Howevever for the left this is embodied in equality of outcome and the right it is embodied in everyone playing by the same rules. One can pick exceptions on each side but it is a focus on process that makes a conservative ideology: it is one which focuses on identifying which types of actions/relations have priority in a conflict. To identify the ideology by the outcome is a leftist strawman attack. 68.134.72.214 (talk) 21:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

The core principle of conservatism is social hierarchy: some people are born to lead, while others are born to follow. That's the opposite of equality by any description. You are confusing it with conservatism in the United States, which most experts do not consider to be a form of conservatism. TFD (talk) 01:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

id actually agree on this. most of the American pundits and writers talk past each other. most liberals I know of do not understand conservatism at all outside of a "Good-Guy VS Bad-Guy" context. There is no room for discourse or talking between the two sides anymore, the left seems unwilling to do so yet call for "Unity". their unity means just coalescing around liberal ideas and agreeing with them/showing solidarity with them. its as if they blindly feel like they are 100% correct and everyone is 100% wrong. like I get the appeal in making fun of boomer conservatives, evangelicals/baptists and corporate conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk... but I am tired of the tired, over used straw-manning and stereotyping people do of conservatives as well as others who partake in the social counter culture of today.

All we want to do is bring back respect, dignity culture and some social norms to prevent people from being taken advantage of as a class or as an individual. politics is all about making one side believe the other is responsible for everything bad (which isnt the case in US politics, both sides have harmed the working class for a multitude of decades, and some call it progress) Daggerfella (talk) 13:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Again, this article is not about conservatism in the United States. Books on comparative politics classify U.S. conservatism as a form of liberalism, not conservatism. The U.S. political debate is basically about which liberal principles to emphasize and how to interpret them, not whether they are valid. Incidentally, in the 1960s there was a "generation gap" between the the boomers and their parents much more pronounced than exists today. Before that, the Silent Generation rebelled against their parents, as in the film Rebel Without a Cause. TFD (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

• This is a forum discussion and should be deleted or archived as per WP:NOTFORUM and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, If you keep engaging in forum discussions Daggerfella I'm afraid we'll end up at the drama boards soon. Bacondrum 20:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Psychology

• The psychology section really seems unethical and biased, and I would argue for its removal, due to its questionable objectivity. Personal politics are a subjective matter, and the holders of said views have their individual reasons for holding them. The entire psychology section draws generalisations from data that is, at best, a mere correlation, and even draws some conclusions that can come off as insulting, such as on intelligence. Enshrining this in an encyclopaedic setting outright presents this as fact, slandering the subject in question. -2600:1003:B103:F799:A951:A3D:46E4:D819 (talk) 16:46, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree, how is this even here? There may be obviously studies that suggest negative psychology factors about conservatism and also liberalism, but no one would ever publish a non-relevant study in the liberalism article, in fact, the liberalism article lacks one. Fvoltes (talk) 02:17, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Scientific studies show both good and bad characteristics for both conservatism and liberalism. These studies show statistics. Populations are more diverse than samples, but a significant sample reflects the properties of the population. In general (again, on the average, not in every particular case), conservative Wikipedia editors want Wikipedia to say good things about conservatives, and bad things about Liberals. Liberal Wikipedians want it the other way around. Wikipedia uses reliable sources, and reliable sources should not be removed because they do not support the opinions of the reader. Thus, the correct question to be asking about the Phychology section is not is it "insulting" but is it supported by reliable sources. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Bodinski2 edit

I have twice reverted a long editorial by Bodinski2. I could use my third revert, but would prefer not to. I also have no interest in getting into an edit war with Bodinski2. I'll leave this to other editors. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I will revert it. The additions seem to be extremely tangential to conservatism and also repeat information already included. Also the grammar is confusing, so it's not always clear what it means. TFD (talk) 21:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Edmund Burke: Louis XIV and George Washington are my teachers, and Catherine the Great is only a woman.

The article without a foundation in quintessence is like a car without an engine. Furthermore, in this form, the article after the summary turns into a presentation of forms such as liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism, which is nonsense. Unfortunately, conservatism is neither an English nor a US patent. Without this paragraph, there is a total distortion of semantics. There is no repetition, but there is clarification. Ideologies have their own history, as well as conservatism, and this history is connected with France and Europe and only in contact with Great Britain, let alone the United States. The article in its current form is duplicitous as Edmund Burke. You both evolutionistly approve of the American Revolution and you deny the French Revolution. Bodinski2 (talk) 07:17, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Insulting people is a poor strategy for persuading them to agree with you. TFD (talk) 08:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The comment is not directed at someone personally to make them feel offended. The article is not authored. It can be strong words, but true. Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. Bodinski2 (talk) 10:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC) The only important point in this discussion is that Wikipedia does not publish original research. Whatever the merits of your ideas, they must be supported by references to appear in Wikipedia.Rick Norwood (talk) 10:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Reflections on the foundation of conservatism

The term "Ancien Régime" dates back to 1794 in English. It was newly forged at that time. However, the existing previous order in France was not old, but accepted as something divine, that is, only possible and reasonable. France's ties with the United States so far have nothing to comment on. They are reflected in the Statue of Liberty. The Anglo-French War (1778–1783) predetermined the success of the American Revolution.

The United States is partly copying, somewhat adapting, the existing French model of government (and order) in a presidential republic. There are also clear differences — the United States has neither aristocracy nor clergy, but only a third class. The second level has been replaced by an indirect democracy that has survived to this day — the United States Electoral College. In other words, classical conservatism is objectively impossible in the United States. Britain at that time had healed its wounds from the English Civil War and power was really in the middle class, which means that the English model was far from the classic conservative model.

In Russia, since the time of the Government reform of Peter the Great, there is the Governing Senate and the Most Holy Synod, a model analogous to Estates General (France). Catherine the Great only supplements it with Charter to the Gentry. Bodinski2 (talk) 11:00, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The article has slowly changed since I last did major edits and it might be worthwhile to determine if it still makes sense. American conservatism should only be in this article to the extent that some people have argued it is conservatism while most sources view it as a form of liberalism, since conservatism means to conservative the ancient regime. Also, Burke was considered to be a liberal until the 20th century. His liberal conservatism meant control by the traditional elites (the aristocracy), but allowing some degree of participation in politics by capitalists who would bring wealth into the country. American "conservatives" ignore the conservative elements of Burke's writing and emphasize the liberal ones. His Irish heritage, acceptance of American independence, opposition to the French revolution (which was a forerunner of anticommunism) and support of Catholic emancipation checked all the boxes for the U.S. conservative movement that arose in the 1950s. But instead of adding a new section that corrects information in the article, we should just ensure that the information is accurate and clear. TFD (talk) 22:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you. The article is about a major revision in relation to the title to the content. In its current form, the content is like "Earth to the Sun, but we are almost outside the solar system". Bodinski2 (talk) 06:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Vivisection

To illustrate the current status quo with the status of the article, it is best to make a comparison with The Island of Doctor Moreau.

The title is Homo sapiens, and below it are sketched all the representatives of the island. Bodinski2 (talk) 10:10, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits to the lead paragraph

My recent edits to the lead paragraph were reverted so I'm starting a discussion thread here.

• My first edit seems to me quite self-explanatory; rather than changing the meaning of the topic, as The Four Deuces stated when reverting, this edit simply clarified the meaning which was already present and cut meaningless repetition of terms (other than adding the qualifiers "modern" and "largely", for which see below): [6].
• My second edit simply added a Wikilink to the term property rights: [7]
• In my third edit, the most substantive change by far, I cut the term "parliamentary government" and provided the following edit summary: "Cut parliamentary government from list of core institutions conservatives seek to preserve, as 1) not distinctive (just as true of e.g. democratic socialism), 2) not applicable to e.g. American conservatism (where the system in question is non-parliamentary), 3) not consistent with the views of prominent conservative thinkers from Joseph de Maistre to Carl Schmitt." [8] I'd be happy to provide sources to support this edit summary, but I'm wondering if that's really necessary.

Thoughts? Generalrelative (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest you make your edits one at a time.Rick Norwood (talk) 23:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

First, you cannot changed sourced material, even if it is not sourced in the lead but is sourced elsewhere in the article without providing new sources. Secondly, as noted in the article, American conservatism is a different ideology and the subject of a separate article. And U.S. conservatives and democratic socialists do not seek to preserve parliament or congress because it is traditional but because it is democratic. TFD (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll think through my more substantial edits before proceeding further, and will simply reinstate what I believe should be uncontroversial edits for clarity. Generalrelative (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Cognotive ability

"A 2009 study found that conservatism and cognitive ability are negatively correlated..." I'm not really familiar with the subject, full disclosure I am left-wing and have only read the abstract. This inclusion seeks to label conservatives as unintelligent. The primary source is US-centric, and, at least in the abstract, seems to ignore key factors such as income level and education. In my opinion a claim like this requires a secondary source. Edit: In addition, wouldn't you expect that having lower levels of education (e.g., gross enrollment at primary, secondary, and tertiary levels) result in lower educational performance anyway? Kauri0.o (talk) 21:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It would be better to have a secondary source that connects all the research. But the concept of a psychological dimension for voting applies across different countries. While the main determinant of voting is class, psychological factors may explain why enough members of the 99% vote for the parties of the 1% to make them competitive in elections. Among other things, higher education leads to more left wing voting although education is corelated to wealth, which predicts more right wing voting. TFD (talk) 21:47, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess my issue with this statement is that the relationship is correlational, but the paragraph implies that it is causational. I think all the information included about SAT, vocabulary etc is all reasonable information, but in its current state it all piles on to imply that there is some causational relationship, for which, as far as I am aware, there is no evidence. In this case I think the causality is due to other underlying factors including, as you say, class, education and wealth. In my opinion this isn't NPOV unless it addresses the reasons why that correlation exists. Kauri0.o (talk) 20:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

There are many different types of "cognitive ability". In my experience, conservatives are unable to "think outside the box" and are unable evaluate evidence that conflicts with their core beliefs. But this applies to other groups, and if your hope is that you will discourage people who are by nature conservative, that is a misplaced hope.

The most widely read book on this subject is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. The phenomenon of the true believer, impervious to evidence, is well known. But it is not unique to conservatives. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

In that case, we should also probably specify what sort of "cognitive ability" we are talking about. Nonetheless, that does not demonstrate that it is causative. Kauri0.o (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

It is causative, not correlational. TFD (talk) 23:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Citation needed? WP:Extraordinary As mentioned above there are reasonable factors that would explain the correlation without requiring causation. Kauri0.o (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

See for example the abstract for the first source provided ("Political conservatism as motivated social cognition.") It's not particularly extraordinary to claim that people who oppose change and support social hierarchy are more likely to vote conservative than those who don't. TFD (talk) 03:02, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

But it is extraordinary to claim that people who oppose change and support social hierarchy have lower congitive ability. I get that its kind-of implied, but not our job to interpret studies. Kauri0.o (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

There are any number of refereed papers and serious books on this subject. From time to time, I have tried to cite them in Wikipedia but any such citation has always been dismissed as "fringe", so I've pretty much given up. There is a similar hard-core constituency to dismiss as "fringe" the large body of medical evidence that shows masturbation helps prevent colon cancer. it appears that "fringe" means "taboo" and evidence is not a factor that will be taken into consideration. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Fair, but citation needed. As stated above I don't think the one currently cited proves anything more than a correlation. Kauri0.o (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Most of the books and articles I have read on this subject are careful not to say "lower" cognitive ability, just different cognitive ability. There is considerable research on the actual genetics behind liberalism. The genes correlated with liberalism, such as the allele of DRD4, dopamine receptor D4, known as 7R+, are first found in the fossil record about forty thousand years ago. At about this time, there were great changes in how humans lived, as contrasted with hundreds of thousands of years before this time when the fossil record shows almost no change. The primary difference between liberal and conservative cognitive ability seems to be a willingness to change ones mind and to accept new ideas. At about the same time liberalism evolved, the first large structures were built, from Göbekli Tepe in Turkey to Stonehenge in Britain, and it was the time when humans first crossed from Asia to the Americas. A good book on the subject is "Predisposed: Liberals, Conservatives, and the Biology of Political Differences by John R. Hibbing, Kevin B. Smith, and John R. Alford." Rick Norwood (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

idk I don't think this kind of info should be included as it seems more like an intentional smear. Years ago I saw an article that said if they put electric probes into someones brain and ran a current to induce temporary brain damage, that conservative individuals would be more Pro-Immigration. and it led to people thinking that liberals must have some kind of deficiency or brain damage. I do not think there is real merit to genetic reasons why there are differences between conservatives and liberals, as again much of it seem as to be smear pieces to rustle some jimmies. and i am of the opinion that its not that liberals are open minded, to an extent everyone is open minded, they just seem the most susceptible to peer pressure and group think dynamics, there are exceptions to the norm, however I have seen more liberal minded people will accept an idea because all of their liberal friends, and the media/pop-culture they consime (that the upper class creates) blindly advocate for it due to confirmation bias and peer pressure. (yes conservatives do this too, however they have terms for fake conservatives within the republican party and will constantly call them out)

Either way it doesn't seem to be NPOV, so id vote to keep it out. its not that its a lower or different cognitive ability, they just have different goals and focuses in life. if there is any merit to the evidence, conservatives are generally more direct and blunt, tend to be more hands on when it comes to learning and tend to prefer skilled labor jobs. Liberals tend to be hands off and passive in the interactions to achieve their goals, and rather have a hands off approach to learning more in theory than practical hands on training and prefer jobs that are not blue collar at all.

and personally Im quite open minded and conservative, I am pretty nuanced about the things I am for and against. just because someone advocates for tearing down a social hierarchy or pushing for social change, doesnt mean that its entirely positive or not naive or potentially ignorant. alot of damage has been done to the american system both in the open and behind closed doors, stapled to "social progress" and other omnibus bills that brought forth negative things stapled to something passed off to be a positive by our leaders and the media. alot of conservatives realise this, hell I was a liberal myself so i feel as if im a pretty neutral source for talking about the two.

and in my own opinion its dishonest to say that conservatives are completely closed minded and have lesser cognitive abilities because we do not support every bandwagon and political movement that may or may not be controlled opposition so that a career politician can get something personal out of it by creating fake trends, fake issues and empty solutions that just kick the can down the road or ultimately do nothing substantial for anyone (such as the 70's-80s enviornmental scares, everyone was told that the world was going to end by the 90s or 2000s due to pollution, every few years the date would change and it would be a new pursuit to ward off future disaster that never starts or ends and that nothing is ever enough, more needing to be done and more government and taxes off of the backs of the working class being needed to achieve it). so its a bad idea to consider conservatives to be lesser of any sort because of a social scientist has negative opinions of a group of individuals because they don't conform to their reality or confirmation bias, thus designating brain damage to someone because their opinions do not fit in their world view.

if it has to be kept, make it more neutral and talk about how it asserts it, or alleges it to be the case (as all or most sociology papers are just speculation and theorizing, rather than a 100% agreed upon consensus) Daggerfella (talk) 14:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

You have the point. At one side, they would like to control your mind and if you disagree with their principles, or even just try to debate or open a moderate discussion about it, you are stigmatized, but likely to conclude you are evil/inferior by any means. Even the opening this section was a big mistake, and study's assertions are laughable, part of the political shoapboxing, really abhorrent.(KIENGIR (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC))

Edit about modern American conservatism

Hello!

About two days ago, an editor changed a portion of this article's section on modern conservatism in the United States, by removing the bold phrase of the following sentence: "Modern American conservatives consider individual liberty, as long as it conforms to conservative values, small government, deregulation of the government, economic liberalism, and free trade, as the fundamental trait of democracy, which contrasts with modern American liberals, who generally place a greater value on social equality and social justice." The edit was eventually reverted.

Now, I can see why this editor would have done it: because the implication that conservative values contradict individual liberties isn't so much an unequivocal statement of fact as it is a liberal talking point with which conservatives will often disagree. (One example might be the hot topic of abortion: whereas liberals accuse conservatives of suppressing women's freedom to abort by attempting to restrict legal access to abortion, conservatives respond that what's at stake is not at all an individual freedom, but rather an act of unduly taking away a human life, thus resolving the apparent contradiction [at least, from their viewpoint].) Regardless of our individual positions, Wikipedia must present a neutral viewpoint, which, in my opinion, means not assuming the contradiction between conservative values and individual liberties as factual, but rather as the one-sided argument that it really is.

Therefore, I suggest a compromise: perhaps rephrasing the sentence into something like: "Modern American conservatives consider individual liberty (although liberals often accuse conservatives of precluding it in favour of conservative values), small government, deregulation of the government, economic liberalism, and free trade, as the fundamental trait of democracy, which contrasts with modern American liberals, who generally place a greater value on social equality and social justice." A valid alternative might be deleting the bold part entirely, in order to present the whole set of conservative ideas without interspersing it with criticism, which might very well more adequately have its own section in the article.

What do you think? LongLivePortugal (talk) 17:38, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Other than abortion, conservatives have opposed contraception, interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, pornography, communism, recreational drugs, assisted suicide and more. So too have liberals. In each case the argument is that freedom does not include the right to do make immoral decisions. So the point is valid but could be more clear perhaps. I am reminded of the Puritans who preached religious freedom but prosecuted heretics. TFD (talk) 19:30, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

yes, I agree with TFD, we should be specific about the Limits on Freedom conservatives espouse, and reflect reliable sources in his regards. I personally agree with the claim that “as long as it conforms to conservative values,” but it sounds like a POV snipe at conservatives and is an incited claim Bacondrum 22:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

In that case, to be clear, are you both supporting a deletion of this "POV snipe" clause (the one that states "as long as it conforms to conservative values") and, at the same time, the introduction of a new section of specific criticism of conservatism elsewhere on the page? LongLivePortugal (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

While I can only speak for myself, I think it is accurate but could be better worded. I don't see it as criticism. TFD (talk) 00:19, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I see. Do you agree with the rewording suggestion I made initially, or would you like to propose a different one? LongLivePortugal (talk) 00:33, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

As this article notes, almost all American politicians say they favor "freedom". The slave owners in the civil war said they were fighting for freedom, the freedom to own slaves. Conservatives say they are fighting for freedom, the freedom to prevent non-Christians from coming to the US, the freedom to ban transexuals from the military, the freedom to storm the US capital. This is not the way the word freedom is usually used. Therefore if the word is to appear in this article at all, with the claim that this is a conservative value, it needs a qualifier. I think the qualifier "as long as it conforms to conservative values" is both accurate and mild. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:14, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the qualifier include a reference to exactly who views conservative policies as being contradictory with the normal sense of the word liberty? By not doing so, aren't we assuming as true a contradiction which is just one-sided criticism? Aren't we writing as opinion as fact? Wouldn't that break the WP:NPOV principle? LongLivePortugal (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I think it would probably best to cut back on the section, since textbooks typically treat U.S. conservatism as a form of liberalism. We should limit the section to explaining that the U.S. ahistorically adopted the terms liberal and conservative to describe the ideological debate. U.S. conservatives are more accurately described as conservative liberals. TFD (talk) 17:33, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I am not familiar with such descriptions of American conservatism. But you seem to be proposing a significant overhaul of that section. If you have sources for that categorisation, would you like to go ahead and rewrite the section as you think best? LongLivePortugal (talk) 18:56, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

It's stated right at the beginning of the section: "The meaning of "conservatism" in the United States has little in common with the way the word is used elsewhere. As Ribuffo (2011) notes, "what Americans now call conservatism much of the world calls liberalism or neoliberalism"." It would seem that the section should address the two questions of why it is considered liberalism and why it is called conservatism, rather than engage in a detailed description. TFD (talk) 19:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Again, I agree with TFD here. Bit of trivia for you TFD (though I'm sure you may already know this) regarding "what Americans now call conservatism much of the world calls liberalism or neoliberalism" we do a similarly confusing thing here in Australia, we generally refer to the conservatives as liberals due to the conservative movement here having merged to form the Liberal Party of Australia, but they are not liberals in the way the rest of the world uses the term, they are conservatives (with a few exceptions). In the media here we often call true liberals "small l liberals" to differentiate. Bacondrum 21:47, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

The party developed largely out of 19th century liberalism and radicalism. Today they are in sync with the U.S. Republicans, the UK Tories and the German Christian Democrats, working together in the International Democrat Union. The system of classifying parties according to their history has limitations but still helps to understand parties. I cannot see for example a UK Tory leader leading a campaign to abolish the monarchy. TFD (talk) 00:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

"Ultraconservatism" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Ultraconservatism. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 6#Ultraconservatism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 01:52, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Burke as a philosopher

Just wondering if he should be listed under politician instead? He was an MP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.244.235.83 (talk) 17:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Why did someone delete the section about "characteristics of conservatism in different countries"? I think this was very useful and interesting infirmation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.69.244.115 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I restored it although the section headings may be different. Some editors want to erase the fact that the original meaning of conservatism was conserving monarchy, aristocracy and the established church. TFD (talk) 02:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Italien

I moved the Italy section to modern conservatism because it as the article says, the Italian Right developed out of 19th century liberalism, rather than conservatism. TFD (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Conservative psychology

This article seems to imply that the consensus among psychologists is that reason for the happiness gap between conservatives and liberals is the rationalization of injustices. However, some literature I have read gives me a reason to believe that this might not be 100% true. This study has been cited 266 times, and offers an alternative explanation for the happiness gap. This study supports the article's current explanation, but it seems to partially accept the results of the previous study. I am no expert in political psychology, so my interpretation of what little I have read may be flawed. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

This study states that religiosity can also explain the happiness gap. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Recent lead changes.

This lead change (which has plainly been contested since shortly after it was added, given the edit-wars over it) is completely unacceptable and sharply decreased both the quality of the relevant text and the extent to which it summarized the article. "Things" is incredibly vague and does not accurately reflect the majority of sources (most of which were removed, I'll noted, in the change, with almost no explanation) - it would imply that eg. environmentalism is a commonly-accepted form of conservatism, when the article text mentions it only to note conservative opposition to it. The article as a whole talks entirely and near-exclusively about conservatives defending institutions; if an editor thinks that that is insufficient (a stance that I do not think the sources support), the appropriate place to begin expanding is in the body, not in the first sentence of the lead. More generally, this is the first sentence of the lead - some WP:BOLDness is fine, but once it was reverted it shouldn't have been restored until there was a clear consensus for it on talk. --Aquillion (talk) 15:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)