Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport

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Surtees TS5/TS-5

I've started a discussion regarding the correct naming for the Formula 5000 Surtees TS5/TS-5. Interested editors are invited to contribute to the discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 11:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Ginetta GT4 Supercup

Should xyz-year Ginetta GT4 Supercup be categorized together? I did that but have been subsequently reverted at Category:Ginetta GT4 Supercup. It seems to be that such articles should be categorized together, since they are just the supercup seasons for that year. After reversion, they only categorize into Category: xyz-year in British motorsport, which seems to be under categorized -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to me for the xyz-year Ginetta GT4 Supercup articles to be categorised together in Category:Ginetta GT4 Supercup. DH85868993 (talk) 05:49, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Jarno Zaffelli

Hello, WikiProject,

It would be great if someone knowledgable about racing could look this new article over. Thanks, in advance, for any help you can provide. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Kategorien

Some categories involving motorsport drivers, teams and races were emptied "out of process" and have been tagged for speedy deletion, CSD C1. If you believe they are still useful and do not want them deleted in a week, you might ensure they are not empty in 7 days. You can find them in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:22, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Pinging Formula Downforce, who's recently been doing work with motor racing categories. DH85868993 (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

The categories Category:Svenska Mästerskapet drivers, Category:Bhaitech Engineering drivers, Category:BVM drivers, Category:Forsythe Championship Racing drivers, Category:Fortec Motorsports drivers, Category:Koiranen Motorsport drivers and Category:Mark Burdett Racing drivers are just dupclicates of [[:Category:Swedish Formula Three Championship drivers]], [[:Category:Bhaitech drivers]], [[:Category:BVM Racing drivers]], [[:Category:Forsythe Racing drivers]], [[:Category:Fortec Motorsport drivers]], [[:Category:Koiranen GP drivers]] and [[:Category:Mark Burdett Motorsport drivers]]. The category Category:Nissan Motorsports drivers is a duplicate Category to either [[:Category:Kelly Racing drivers]] or [[:Category:Nismo drivers]]. The category Category:European Formula Racing drivers included just Mark Webber (racing driver) but there is no evidence that he drove for a team named like that. The category Category:European GT Championship drivers included just John Fitzpatrick (racing driver) and the Championship doesn't even have a Wikipedia article and isn't found anywhere else. Formula Downforce (talk) 12:42, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

2022 World Touring Car Cup Standing

Number of points in team standing in the article for whatever reason is different from standing on official website. Also Girolami's number of points is wrong. Might be some other errors, someone needs to check. 194.104.22.5 (talk) 15:54, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I've brought this up at Talk:2022_World_Touring_Car_Cup. SSSB (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Nationality... Again

User:MSport1005 continues to add unsourced speculation about drivers' nationalities. From my point of view. We should adhere to MOS:FLAGS and MOS:ETHNICITY. We already discussed matter and reached conclusion that Aitken is not referred as South Korean racing driver in majority of sources and that we should not refer him as South Korean driver in infobox. But he still put this using kinda new reasons which still do not comply with wiki guidelines. P.S. I have nothing against to show the background in article but it should not confuse understanding which country he actually represented according to third-party sources. Maybe using of the notes will be better for this purpose. i.e. Sacha Fenestraz Nationality: French<note>Uses Argentine flag on his car and helmet<source>. Corvus tristis (talk) 18:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, thank you for opening this, I was actually starting a new topic on your talk page right now... So, there's different cases, for a start. I don't see in the same way drivers like Lance Stroll, Lirim Zendeli, Victor Martins oder Pascal Wehrlein who completely ignore their 2nd nationalities and focus on their main country of origin, and people like Jack Aitken, Sacha Fenestraz, Ayrton Simmons oder David Malukas, who wear both flags on their helmets, race suits, cars, etc., and have stated their will to represent both of their countries in racing. It just doesn't sit well with me to give so much importance to a racing licence, which isn't 100% in the driver's control. I don't agree with removing one nationality for these drivers just because they can only race under one licence, while we can perfectly have Romain Grosjean, Edoardo Mortara, Simona de Silvestro oder Raffaele Marciello with their two flags purely because they've changed licence over time—which I do support. In any case, I really encourage you to stop reverting while consensus isn't yet reached—we should listen to other user's views first. For me, we should keep both flags only for drivers who provenly use both flags in their official forms, i.e. on their car and suit (not in stylised artwork like helmets). I could agree with using notes if you deem that more appropriate. MSport1005 (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on WP:Reliable sources and nor on our direct evidence nor on our interpretation. This is your mistake in the first place. Driver him/herself may belive that he even a Martian and may put on his car or suit a flag of Mars. Our goal is to reflect in which way he was reflected in a complex of reliable sources and put this info to infobox. If majority says that driver is British, then it should be British. If it is important to reflect position of minority - use note. Corvus tristis (talk) 19:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Please be serious and discuss sensibly, we're not 12-year-olds. Driver him/herself may belive that he even a Martian This is not about beliefs. This is about a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. Using the flag on car and suit is the 2nd best proof for the latter—the best one obviously being stating it explicitly in interviews. So it's double source if anything, not the silliness of putting any dumb occurrence you come up with on your car—which you're not allowed to, by the way. MSport1005 (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Suits and car liveries are stylised (usually by the team, though the driver could have a say). Using flags from race suits and car liveries is WP:OR at best. There is absolutely nothing to stop Ferrari put the Italian flag on Leclerc's race suit - it doesn't make him Italian. The infoboxe should be limited to the nationality they race as - the only exception being if they aren't that nationality (is that even possible?) The prose can deal with the ins and outs of the situation. SSSB (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing to stop Ferrari put the Italian flag on Leclerc's race suit Not really... It's down to the driver what flags appear next to his/her name on the suit, the side of the cockpit, and the halo. Also, that's not stylised: it's simply <flag1> <flag2> <driver name> and possibly <#number>. In text format. is that even possible? It is, yes. Novalak and Piastri have raced under British licences in the past, Palou under a Japanese one, Bedrin and Blokhina are racing under an Italian one, Doornbos and Kobayashi raced under a Monégasque one in F1 and FE respectively, etc. It happens usually in European karting in fact. And Angolans always have to get other licences because their ASN doesn't issue them. The prose can deal with the ins and outs of the situation Now, that's an answer I was looking for. If a few more users agree with your view, then we'll be in the position to call it consensus. MSport1005 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

No, that’s not only up to the driver. Teams can decide whether or not to incorporate those too. Most importantly, they have no official meaning whatsoever. Bertrand Gachot once had the flag of Europe on his car and helmet. You’re not seriously going to suggest his nationality was European, are you? Lastly, nationality of an ASN issuing a licence≠racing nationality of the driver it’s issued to.Tvx1 02:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Who are you and why are you trying to teach me about motorsport? That last sentence proves you have no idea how this industry works... You need to take a good look at articles 1.4 and 1.5 of Appendix L to the International Sporting Code before spreading all this misinformation. MSport1005 (talk) 09:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Those articles don't state that the driver must be of the same nationality as the ASN. SSSB (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, that was exactly my point. What are you trying to defend? MSport1005 (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Tvx1 said that ASN nationality is not the same as racing nationality, and you point him to those articles, articles which don't talk about that issue at all. SSSB (talk) 12:12, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I misinterpreted what Tvx1 meant? I thought his point was that the country you race for isn't necessarily the country of the ASN that issues your licence. Something which is blatantly wrong. MSport1005 (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

That is his point - and there is nothing in the articles you mentioned to suggest he is "blatantly wrong". SSSB (talk) 13:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Are you trying to waste my time? MSport1005 (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

You're wasting everyone's time by refusing to provide a link to the relevant regulations and playing these stupid games telling people to look things up. If you make a claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not send up on a wild goose chase (WP:PROVIT). Either you've pointed me to the wrong articles, or we are interpreting them differently - please quote the text you believe supports the claim that Tvx1 is "blatantly wrong". SSSB (talk) 15:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Alright, let's set this straight because I think you're getting a lot of things mixed up. You can have all the nationalities you want but what determines the country you represent in FIA-sanctioned series is the ASN that issued your licence. If there's no licence, there's no race for you. Surely this was something obvious and a clear basis of this discussion? You literally pointed at that earlier when you said The infoboxe should be limited to the nationality they race as - the only exception being if they aren't that nationality. Appendix L to the ISC, specifically the articles I mentioned, covers all this. Simply look at the F3 entry list from last weekend, the country next to the driver is the country of the licence. Look at Goethe for example: he's representing Monaco despite not having the Monégasque nationality. Even the Wikipedia article on F3 explains it well: "Goethe is a Danish-German driver competing under a Monegasque licence." Even clearer for FRECA and [//Elenco_verificati_spa_19062022_verified.pdf Italian F4] where you're given the nationality of the driver (i.e. the passport they're using) and the country of the ASN that issued the licence they're using. And it's the latter that they represent—hence why, for example, the Italian anthem is being played when Nikita Bedrin wins this year. You can search for F2 2017 when Palou raced: he had the Japanese flag. Why? Because he was racing in Japanese F3 that year and Japanese F3 forces their drivers to use Japanese licences ([1]). Go back to F1 in 2005 and you'll see Doornbos with the Monégasque flag. Why? Again, same case as Goethe, he's not Monégasque but he's based in Monaco and therefore got his licence there because it was easier for him ([2]). It's as simple as: the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence. I really don't understand why we're going on a tangent about something that is common knowledge (or so I thought...). MSport1005 (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

The articles you mentioned don't cover this at all. And it is obsurd to think that volunteers (which we all are), most of whom are little more than casual fans, would know the ins and outs of a regulation which has no direct impact on the competition. I, for one, don't moniter F3, or take any real notice of who drives for what nation, or what national anthem is being played. Can we please also turn down the aggresion.

Getting on to the subject at hand, your paragrapgh is WP:OR. Looking at your paragrapgh, it seems perfectly reasonable to say that drivers race as the nationality of their license by default, but may choose to override this to their actual nationality, if they so wish. SSSB (talk) 18:20, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

No I'm not telling things that are blatantly wrong. Cut your arrogant attitude here please. You're not going to achieve anything by treating other editors like that. The nationality of an ASN that issues a driver's licence is not necessarily the same as the nationality that driver competes under. Sure there have been plenty of cases where that was the cases, but that doesn't mean it is a default. You want an example of the opposite? Sure, with pleasure. Andre Lotterer's licence was issued by the ASN of Belgium (his motherland), but he nevertheless he competes under Germany nationality (his fatherland). Racing licences have a nationality field, just like passports, and that determines what nationality a driver competes under. Often they simply leave that the same as the ASN, but it isn't always so. Thus we cannot purely go by ASN nationality. And I reiterate that flags on cars and overalls have no official meaning. Tvx1 18:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not as much arrogance as it is exasperation, to be completely honest. I do apologise to User:SSSB and you if I was too aggresive though, I might have got too carried away. As for the Lotterer situation, I'm aware of it and from what I've been told it was all either a misunderstanding from those Belgian newspapers, or just reproduction of outdated information. As I said, my statement that the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence applies exclusively for FIA-sanctioned championships. He is racing under a German licence in FE, that is for sure. What you say might have been true for Super Formula, which he was doing at the time of the articles. MSport1005 (talk) 18:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

He also drove in F1 as a German while holding a licence from the Belgian ASN. Moreover, there are different regulations for different FIA championships. For FIA world championships the International Sporting Code dictates that drivers must compete under a passport nationality they possess. Therefore, Robert Doornbos, who you mentioned earlier and who drove in F1 in 2005 with Monegasque nationality, must have had that nationality too in addition to having a licence from its ASNTvx1 18:42, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

That might owe to a particularity for FIA World Championships covered by Article 9.4.2 of the ISC ([3]). A particularity which, if I may add, is rarely enforced, as Doornbos in 2005 proves. For all other championships, Article 9.4.1 (i.e. the country you represent is the country of the ASN that issued your licence) applies. I do have reasons to believe Lotterer raced under a German licence in F1 though. MSport1005 (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

We don't goby ones personal "reasons to believe", we go by evidence. Tvx1 19:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Who cares anyway? What licence Lotterer used in F1 eight years ago is irrelevant to this discussion, and my "reasons to believe" aren't things I can share publicly, so what is the point? MSport1005 (talk) 19:35, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

No it isn't. It is an example of a driver competing under the nationality of the ASN issuing his licence. Comments that you have "reasons to believe" something regarding a racing licence that you cannot however share publicly are really difficult to take serious. It seems more probable that you personal motives for refusing to believe that factual scenario that has been presented to you is not possible. Even you call into question the situation in F1, he also drove in another FIA world championship, WEC, in the years before and after. And also in non-world championships he competed with a licence from the Belgian ASN, yet there is no evidence he ever competed in any championship under Belgian nationality. Thus drivers competing with a different nationality to the nationality of the ASN issuing his/her licence CAN patently happen. Also the ISC you linked to is the 2022 version, what we're discussing happened 8 to 15+ years ago. Regulations can change over time. Tvx1 14:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Completely off the point. But also in non-world championships he competed with a licence from the Belgian ASN, yet there is no evidence he ever competed in any championship under Belgian nationality. That's because he didn't. In fact his Formula E stint pre-WC (pre-2020/21), which falls under Article 9.4.1 of the ISC, confirms he's using a German licence, not a Belgian one. MSport1005 (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

It's down to the driver what flags appear... er, last I check the team designed the livery. And even if it was down to the driver - it is still WP:OR to follow that. From what you've said, there is nothing to stop Vettel using the Ukrainian flag (which he has already done on his helmet), and there is nothing to stop Verstappen putting the flag of Verstapland. Unless you can point to the regulation that dictates drivers may only display flags to which they are officially connected, the use of flags is a stylistic choice (who makes that choice is irrelevant) and it is WP:OR to claim that it is their nationality. SSSB (talk) 08:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree. I said before, Gachot put a European flag on his car at some point. And some British drivers have put the flags of their home nations on the cars. These have no official meaning whatsoever.Tvx1 18:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, what you debate is outside the scope of what I suggested in one of my replies above: a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. MSport1005 (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Willingness to represent is not the same thing as having represented multiple nationalities. We don't list multiple nationalities in infoboxes unless they actually have represented multiple nationalities. There is no guarantee a willingness is actually put in practice.Tvx1 19:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

See, you're conferring sporting nationality a meaning that it doesn't strictly have. The whole reason this section was opened is that this is not set in stone, it's not something for you to be condescending about, it is up for debate. And don't make me bring the example of the Angolans into play again... MSport1005 (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Willingness? A driver might be willing to race as Donetsk, that doesn't make it his nationality. Willingness is WP:OR in most cases anyway. Infoboxes should limit themselves to actual nationality and sporting nationality, not hypothetical nationality. SSSB (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Why do you keep making the same comment over and over again? This is like an endless spiral. I'll repeat it for a third time—if you want I can put it in bold, in italics, underline it, circle it and put little stars around it for you to read it. What I'm suggesting is a) the driver actually officially possessing both nationalities and b) the driver willing to represent both of those countries in racing. None of the examples you've given of Ukraine, Europe, Donetsk, 'Verstapland' and Mars fulfills that. MSport1005 (talk) 09:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Really? Ukraine is not a sovereign state then? As we have explained to you already neither a nor b are justification to include nationalities in the inbox of racing drivers. Our practice is to only include nationalities that a driver has actually competed under. Including nationalities based on willingness is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as listing a driver as having won a world championship because they declared a willingness to win one. Tvx1 14:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

If you can forward to me any source that confirms Vettel has a Ukrainian nationality... MSport1005 (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I kept repeating the same thing again and again because you keep making a ridiculous, WP:OR claim: "willingness". Willingness is not a metric used to determine nationality, apart from, apparently, by you. SSSB (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

But who said it's a metric to determine nationality? People say something and you interpret the opposite. This feels like arguing with a concrete wall, seriously. MSport1005 (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

You, when you mentioned the "willingness" of the driver. If you are now acknowledging that "willingness" is not a metric used to determine nationality, then "willingness" isn't relevant. So why do you keep bringing it up? We either use their legal nationality, or sporting nationality, or both. Not this WP:OR, subjective mix and match of what the driver is "hypothetically" willing to do. As for "confirms Vettel has a Ukrainian nationality" - you're the one who keeps telling us that this isn't relevant. You are the one who keeps insisting that drivers compete for the nation who is their ASN. So if Vettel gets a Ukrainian license, he races as Ukrainian. SSSB (talk) 09:59, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

You're taking everything out of context and not reading what other people say. It's pointless to continue this conversation. MSport1005 (talk) 10:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think you're trolling us here. Our replies were merely refutes of your arguments. The Ukraine things was just to show that flags on cars don't mean anything. Any driver, not just Vettel, could have a Ukrainian flag painted on their car and still would have no official meaning. You're the one ripping it of context here. And it seems that you have now yourself admitted that it's a meaningless argument. Tvx1 12:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

No, it's just that you're twisting my arguments to disprove me instead of purely stating your opinions, and I'm tired of it. My point all along was that what country a driver represents isn't strictly up to the driver, so equating sporting nationality to licence (which, per Article 9.4.1 of the ISC, is what determines who the driver represents in most series) isn't fair or accurate. Sacha Fenestraz, who has on several occasions stated he wishes to represent Argentina and not France, is a prime example of this. Jack Aitken, who always carries the Korean flag wherever he goes and remembers his Korean background, is another. So is David Malukas, who literally blends the Lithuanian and American flags in order to represent both. My view is that taking the flags a driver opts to wear on his car and suit (provided they have the passport of said countries) is a good common ground, and avoids removing countries that drivers feel attached to but can't, or have difficulties representing—but does leave out others like Mauritius for Wehrlein, Portugal for Martins, or Albania for Zendeli. I know it's something unofficial and changeable, which makes it a shaky metric, but I'd personally prefer it over strictly sticking to licence. I'd also prefer if each of you just manifested your views instead of picking apart some of my words out of context, giving unrelated examples to discredit them, and just wandering about in circles with the conversation. That's all I have to say. MSport1005 (talk) 14:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Could you please clarify how "I know it's something unofficial and changeable, which makes it a shaky metric, but I'd personally prefer it over strictly sticking to licence." connects with WP:Reliable sources and WP:OR? Driver itself is not a third-party source. You provide some questionable source in edit description about driver raced under different license/nationality during one season and on this basis you making conclusion that driver competes whole racing career "via dual nationality". Corvus tristis (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

• @SSSB:, thank you for link for WP:OR. This is funny but original research is literally what MSport1005 asks me in the edit descriptions, when he doing his reverts. Corvus tristis (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  Now, this is frankly shocking. If we're going to read edit summaries: yesterday you were saying "you're breaking <this> and violating <that>", "gosh, you even read your source?" and then proceeded to complain about my "tone, please" when I told you 5 times to do your research. You even told me it's my obligation to do the research in your place! You were removing established material from Wikipedia on the basis of claims like "no source that he raced as <whatever>" which you didn't even bother verifying. You were wrong in multiple cases: De Silvestro, DeFrancesco, Grosjean, even Lund who's literally racing as a Nicaraguan currently, even Weug a few months ago where you didn't even check the sources that were already in the article! And you still keep pretending you're always in the right. This is not a good attitude to have in Wikipedia. We're here to discuss in a civilised way, not to tell the others things like "this is your mistake in the first place". MSport1005 (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  This is not in keeping with WP:BURDEN. Once is a mistake, doing it multiple times comes across as arrogance or failing to get to the point that it is your burden. A driver racing under multiple nationalities is always a claim that should be cited. It is your job to provide attibutation for your edits - you can not expect others to go on a wild goose chase looking for it. SSSB (talk) 15:35, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

  They're not my edits. MSport1005 (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Reverts are your edits. Addition of the "suit and car flag" to infobox of Aitken, also your edit. Just facts. Corvus tristis (talk) 17:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Whether or not you are the first person to add the content is irrlevant. By restoring the content the onus was on you to prove something that was reasonable challenged. SSSB (talk) 18:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I see your point now and understand my mistake. Either way I did provide the necessary sources as per WP:BURDEN when asked to. I do still think part of the burden is on Corvus tristis, particularly at Frederik Lund and Maya Weug, where he didn't check the existing sources properly. MSport1005 (talk) 18:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

The easy thing to do is add an in-line citation to the infobox... SSSB (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)