Talk:2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive

Second Battle of Kharkov in the 1940s

This counteroffensive bears a very significant resemblance to German movements during the Second Battle of Kharkov, although I couldn't find any sources drawing the comparison. I think the similarities are worth some brief coverage in the article. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:B846:30D3:F26D:8321 (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree, the near encirclement at izyum yesterday was along a front almost exactly identical to the offensive AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 02:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Please find some reliable sources which say this, otherwise it's original research which we can't use. Jr8825 • Talk 02:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah they both have one going from modern day Bakalia area. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

User:AnAustralianHistoryBuff and User:Jr8825, the source below makes this comparison. https://www.politico.eu/article/liberated-ukrainians-embrace-troops-kharkiv-ukraine-russia-war/ Mawer10 (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for finding this. "The move to impose a stranglehold around Izyum, a town with a pre-war population of 46,000, has rekindled memories of a major encounter fought in almost exactly the same territory in World War II." It seems reasonable to mention in this article that the Second World War battle happened in the same area. Jr8825 • Talk 15:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

User:Jr8825, looks great like this. Mawer10 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

That's actually the quote straight from the article! We'd need to put it in our own words first. Jr8825 • Talk 21:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Jr8825, how about that: “The move to dominate the surroundings of Izium was similar to a war fought there during World War II in which the Germans launched a major blow in the Second Battle of Kharkov against the Soviet Army.” Mawer10 (talk) 23:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I've now added a mention to the "Counteroffensive" summary section. Thanks for your help. Jr8825 • Talk 23:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Units

UAF: -92nd OMBR

-80th AirAssault Brigade

-3rd Tank Brigade

-25th Airborne Brigade

-Azov SSO 'Kraken'

All proven by: https://militaryland.net/maps/deployment-map/ 92nd OMBR is proven by pictures too.

RAF: -Elements of the 3rd Corps

Proof:https://twitter.com/ControlCompli8/status/1568652373547171840/photo/1 "O" in an upside down triangle has been the symbol of the 3rd Corps since they've been deployed. Shhssh (talk) 22:01, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Not "opportunistic"

Seems that the Kharkiv operation was planned as the main offensive by the Ukrainian govt and that the Kherson "offensive" was merely a diversionary tactic. Ukrainian officials and military leaders have confirmed that Kharkiv was the main push to begin with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/10/ukraines-publicised-southern-offensive-was-disinformation-campaign DojoIrl (talk) 00:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've removed the "opportunistic" quotes but haven't yet added coverage of the misinformation campaign. Jr8825 • Talk 02:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Which in turn is opportunistic in the event that Russia DID move soldiers instead of bringing new ones luckily it turned in Ukraine's favour Dawsongfg (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

outcome

I doubt the offensive will continue once izyum and the north is mopped up. if attacks do continue it should really then be added to a new page. I think that once this battle is over (if the current situation continues) the result sections should call this a decisive ukrainian victory because lets face it the russians have effectively been routed and the initiative of the war has completely shifted. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

a) We need sourcing which supports that, otherwise is WP:OR.

b) Any descriptive word alongside 'victory' is against WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. Melmann 10:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

First wait until the goodwill gesture is completed. We will then decide what to call it. Super Ψ Dro 12:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, any further counterattacks by Ukraine in the area should be called the Luhansk counteroffensive. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:88CD:3143:40DE:A3B0 (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

When they become notable enough yes. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Called the 2022 Ukrainian Dombas counteroffensive. Mawer10 (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

"Fredericus 2.0" name

Only one source has used this unofficial naming "Fredericus 2.0", yet it somehow found its way on the article. Also, "Operation Fredericus" is a name Nazis Germany gave to its operation in WWII. Given the propaganda context by Russia on calling Ukraine a Nazi state, I wouldn't put "Fredericus 2.0" in the article until it's visible that this name is used by multiple reliable sources (official Ukrainian state and military sources, since they are the ones conducting the counteroffensive) that have decided to call it that. Идеологист (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah it kinda pushes towards the POV of "Ukraine is Nazis" etc Dawsongfg (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Removed. Jr8825 • Talk 01:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

"counter offensive"

I'm just thinking does this really count as a count as a counter offensive? a counter offensive is generally an offensive that occurs soon after an enemy offensive to retake lost territory or a defensive position an example is the latter half of the Battle of Cambrai (1917), where the germans went of the offensive and recaptured the territory that the British had taken. But this offensive wasn't really in response to anything, the Russians took this land months ago, calling this a counter offensive seems like calling the Nivelle offensive a french counter offensive (at least to me). surely this operation which has clearly been planned for months and does not have any relation to Russian actions recently in the region, shouldn't it just be an offensive? AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 01:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree should just be "offensive". Volunteer Marek 02:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 12 September 2022

2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive → 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive – How about renaming the article "2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive", as judging by the battles in Lyman and the reports of the Ukrainian army advancing towards Lysychansk and Severodonetsk, the actions did not limited to the Kharkiv region. Mawer10 (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support. This is better than the proposals of making another counteroffensive article. Super Ψ Dro 16:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  Support until those become notable enough in their own right. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Gah Dawsongfg (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Support Ukrainian troops have entered the outskirts of Lysychansk, and a second battle for Lyman is underway. 68.80.24.8 (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Support I support it, but let's wait until the Ukrainian troops return at least Lyman or Svatove or Starobilsk, that is, any large population human settlement in the Luhansk Oblast. Because it is not even known yet whether the Ukrainian troops have crossed the Oskil River, that is, one part of the city of Kupiansk across the river, the villages of Borova, Kivsharivka, and Kupiansk-Vuzlovyi have not yet been returned. So far, I cannot say that the counteroffensive has gained significance for the entire eastern theater of operation, except for Kharkiv Oblast. Uliana245 (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

agree partially, but this isn't really all that east (even if lysychansk falls) I feel like north or north east offensive would be more apt as this whole are is the northern most part of the battle front. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Procedural comment. This discussion, despite looking like one, was not a formal WP:RM and thus not getting picked up by the bot. I've converted it into a normal RM so it displays on the list of current requested moves. SnowFire (talk) 09:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Some activity outside of Kharkiv doesn't make the title misleading as a whole; it was still vastly focused on Kharkiv oblast and the media has referred to it as such. If there's further battles, they might well be better covered in a new article anyway. Would be happy with 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv offensive though since this is only sketchily a counteroffensive per above (normally a counteroffensive implies something a little more tactical on the scale of hours or days; months is pushing it). SnowFire (talk) 09:41, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Create a separate article for the Ukrainian counteroffensive for each oblast? I don't know, I personally would not agree with this idea. It is better to focus on articles about the theater of operations. It is obvious that the Kharkiv Oblast belongs to the eastern theater, for the most part. And this title of the article seems to be associated with the city, not the oblast. Uliana245 (talk) 10:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I would also be fine with "2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv oblast offensive" if clarity is a concern. To my knowledge, there aren't any such major offensives in other oblasts, just the usual amount of fighting which seems not necessarily best covered with this attack. If "Kharkiv oblast" is a little over-specific, "Eastern" is far over-vague. SnowFire (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per SnowFire. EkoGraf (talk) 11:38, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

"Eastern" is quite misleading, as there are plenty of regions ever more eastern than the ones having been liberated.

On the other hand, Kharkiv is 70km away from where the main offensive took place in Balakliya; wouldn't it be more precise to call it the Sloboda Offensive in honor of the region where this took place, or the Oskil Offensive in honor of the river that was reached all along the new eastern front-line?

More suggestions: Balakliia Offensive, Offensive of Kharkivshchyna (= Kharkiv Region)... Densemk (talk) 12:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Kupyansk-Izium counteroffensive could also work, as those were the two key towns ZSU aimed for during the counteroffensive. Jebiguess (talk) 13:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

See Eastern Ukraine! Mawer10 (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Support. The offensive was going on not only in the Kharkiv region, including in parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions (the battles for Liman and Lysichansk were resumed) PLATEL (talk) 13:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Support — A 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive already exists, and, given their connection, it would perhaps be best for their titles to resemble each other. — 86.127.85.178 (talk) 14:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment: It should be Northeast, no? After all the east also extends to Donetsk etc. 64.82.204.2 (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Kharkiv Oblast is the east of Ukraine! Not the north of Ukraine! Uliana245 (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)