Talk:White supremacy

Recent edits

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@Rsk6400: "Neo-Nazism" is mentioned in the introduction as underlining "white supremacy", so the term can stand in for white supremacy. Also, the British Commonwealth paragraphs are not only colonial times because Winston Churchill is mentioned in a recent event and other information could surface. Shouldn't New Zealand then be with other Commonwealth countries instead of at the bottom? Altanner1991 (talk) 08:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this here. The lead section of any article is not a reliable source for WP. "The New Yorker" is a reliable source, but not an academic one. So, the idea that every incident of Neo-Nazism is also an incident of White Supremacism seems to be WP:SYNTH. Churchill was prime minister while the British Empire was still (largely) intact. To me, there seems to be little connection between Rhodesia before independence and New Zealand in the 21st century, especially since the sub-sections about Rhodesia and South Africa are about White supremacists in power, while the New Zealand section is about a lone terrorist. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok and thank you for the reply. Altanner1991 (talk) 03:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

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Add a sub-section?

Should we add a sub-section about white supremacy in latinamerica? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.228.20.130 (talk) 13:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Tell me which sources and I can do the rest. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 10:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Distinguishing between "supremacy" and "supremacism"

User:Generalrelative reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_supremacy&diff=1087305767&oldid=1084332087 this edit that I had done, saying it ought to be discussed here.

BEFORE:

White supremacy or white supremacism is the belief that white people are superior to those of other races and thus should dominate them.

AFTER:

White supremacy is any social order in which white people dominate those of other races and are considered to be entitled to such domination because of their supposed superiority to those others. White supremacism is the belief that white supremacy should prevail.

My edit summary said:

Here I am distinguishing between supremacy and supremacism; the former being the social order in which one group dominates others and the latter being the beilef that that is as it ought to be.

Although my phrasing may not be perfect and might bear refinement, the difference between the meanings of these two words should be made clear. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:28, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I am not against this change in principle; it is indeed perfectly logical. However I have two concerns: 1) This distinction may not be consistently followed in the reliable sources, in which case it might be considered an instance of original research by Wikipedia's definition; 2) of more immediate concern, changing just the initial sentence rendered much of what followed nonsensical –– or at least confusing –– since throughout the rest of the lead and the body of the article the two terms are used interchangeably. I'd like to see each of these points addressed before we adopt the distinction in the opening sentence. Generalrelative (talk) 18:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

My experience with the sources is that they're far more likely to use the terms interchangeably than to draw this distinction. I would be happy to be proven wrong; I generally prefer it when different words have different meanings. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:50, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed! Generalrelative (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with this change. White supremacy is primarily not the state of white people having more power than other racial groups; it is the belief that whites are superior in xyz ways because of their race. Replace "supremacy" with "superiority", and the meaning becomes quite clear. For what it's worth, that seems to be the definition given in dictionaries, with the second meaning having secondary status. Includes second meaning: [1]. Only first meaning: [2] [3] It is possible that the above distinction is made in some social science journals—I would not know—but it is certainly not the common way of going about things. 2600:1700:1154:3500:65DE:6C0:3B59:934A (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTADICTIONARY means we don't use dictionary content (see wiktionary.org for that). We need academic sources that discuss in more detail than a dictionary. Hopefully that clears things up. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Neo-Nazism is generally white supremacy

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Neo-Nazism should be in the article because it is generally about white supremacy rather than fascism. Altanner1991 (talk) 22:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

UPDATE JULY 2022
@Rsk6400: or any other commentors

Please discuss if you believe white supremacy should not include general neo-Nazi content. Since this has been ongoing for a long time (a few weeks already) I will go ahead short of any discussion. Altanner1991 (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

This is a case of original synthesis, see WP:SYNTH. Nothing that is not clearly connected to White supremacy by reliable sources (WP:RS) should be mentioned here. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:10, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Please point to the portions that have synthesis? They are all directly connected. Altanner1991 (talk) 08:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The Ukraine part and the Nazi part concentrate on neo-Nazism in general, and we'd also need much better sources for both parts. Also the claim "White supremacy, ... is rooted in ethnocentrism and a desire for hegemony and power" needs a much better source. Please seek consensus before making this change again. Rsk6400 (talk) 11:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I fail to understand why the sources are not good enough. They are already good enough. Altanner1991 (talk) 11:43, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you answered about the Nazi part for the introduction. How are the sources "not good enough", exactly? They are perfectly fine sources. And it is not talking about neo-Nazism so that part about your comment made no sense. Altanner1991 (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

For the record here is the portion in question as the Russia and Ukraine portions have been properly moved to the Neo-Nazism article and the archive link was missing: "White supremacy, as with racial supremacism in general, is rooted in ethnocentrism and a desire for hegemony and power, and has frequently resulted in violence against non-whites." It's connected to a reputable university and is more sourced than the average news article; not sure why that would be the case that it's not allowed. Altanner1991 (talk) 13:41, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@Altanner1991: The onus to establish consensus is yours, see WP:ONUS. I gave two reasons why the Nazi part should not be added to this article IMHO. You can of course question my reasons, but please do so based on WP policies and on reliable sources. Don't repeat your changes without establishing consensus here. When we give such a general judgement about White supremacy being rooted in a certain desire, we can be sure that there are different views by different scholars. We have to represent all of them. The source you gave is reliable, but not good enough because it concentrates on Antonio Gramsci, an Italian communist politician, who is in no way representative for the scholars on racism. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with everything you have said but the last revert did not have that content anymore, so Gramsci and Russia/Ukraine are irrelevant at this point. And indeed I do of course hope that a good consensus can be reached for the content. Altanner1991 (talk) 22:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The Gramsci source is no longer a question so why are the holocaust portions being removed? Altanner1991 (talk) 11:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400 Why are you removing the inclusion of the holocaust in the introduction alongside apartheid/White Australia/Jim Crow? It appears to be disruptive and you can be reported. Altanner1991 (talk) 10:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: You have failed to communicate why the holocaust portion is being reverted. Altanner1991 (talk) 11:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: The body of the article has the same content so it can definitely be on the page; not sure how my sources are any different. We can seek dispute resolution to help in the matter. Altanner1991 (talk) 09:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I am retracting my request for this talk page section because Jewish people are, in fact, sometimes considered "White". Altanner1991 (talk) 04:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Recent edits

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The most recent edits to this page seem a little strange and don't quite read correctly. I think this page needs some attention from a moderator. 2603:8080:5701:9E54:E0FB:BA41:E1D9:182B (talk) 03:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

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Gobineau

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@Rsk6400 Gobineau was highly influential with regards to white supremacy: see his article page. Altanner1991 (talk) 00:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the same basic argument applies here as to the "Neo-Nazism is generally white supremacy" section above. You need to show that the idea of "whiteness" was central to Gobineau's worldview. I do think that this would be valuable if you can do so, but the specific content you sought to add did not accomplish this. Generalrelative (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't realize some of the content was mine, so I restored only the old content which has been there for years without issue. Altanner1991 (talk) 00:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

It was not his worldview but his influence that pertained to white supremacy. His page shows that this was indeed the case, including the pertinence that has been given with Nazi Germany. Altanner1991 (talk) 00:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC); edited 01:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Nazi Germany, Gobineau (including my recent additions), and Nordicism should all either be together or not in the article at all. I would like to do that right now, by transferring the content to Nordicism, unless there are objections. I would give some time for this discussion but it otherwise is not consistent to only remove my portions. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 01:24, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Done. Altanner1991 (talk) 02:19, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

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Nordicism

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Archive 2 has lots of debate on whether or not to include this, and Grayfell (talk · contribs) in 2016 asserted that it remain in the article. It would be good to find a clear consensus on this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Altanner1991 (talk • contribs) 05:09, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Looking through that archive, I couldn't find any comment by Grayfell, nothing on Gobineau, and only unsubstantial comments on Nordicism. I support your suggestion to move it all to Nordicism. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I never mentioned Gobineau, and yes Grayfell's comments were as far as the Archive 4. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 22:38, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Altanner1991: While I feel well able to go along with your edits until 04:27, 30 July 2022, I don't see much justification for your more recent ones. The most important problems I see are the removal of Rhodesia and South African apartheid together with your changes at the beginning of the lead section. According to WP:NOTDICTIONARY, an article should start with a good definition. The idea of having an extra section called "definition" seems strange to me. Also, "White supremacy" has been used by a lot of normal people (not only scholars), including White supremacists themselves, especially during the bad old days of Jim Crow. White Australia also obviously is about Whitenesss, and - yes - White supremacy was justified by pseudo-science (I'll add the reference soon). --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time to contribute right now, but I'd like to voice support for everything Rsk6400 just said. Couldn't have put it better. Generalrelative (talk) 18:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll start a new section for the recent reverts, so that the discussion is not under the topic of Nordicism. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 22:33, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400 Thank you for the constructive comments and help with the article. I now consider this talk page section to be closed. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2022 (UTC); edited 09:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent reverts back to July 30th, 2022

@Rsk6400 @Generalrelative I would like to respond to your comments about my edits — they seemed well sourced but as you raised concerns I will answer to that in discussion.... The changes were based on what is sourced, that means that Apartheid has no references to white "supremacy" other than Baasskap alone, and even there it is only a single source. Rhodesia is the same situation: we need sources much like was said with regards to the Holocaust. Regarding the definition of the term(s), my basis was on WP:LEDE, which further states that article introductions should not include anything not already in the body of the article, unless for small random facts in certain situations. To adhere to this principle, the first section would be called Description (instead of Definition). Not sure what you mean by scholars and white supremacists having used the term, in the latter example since Jim Crow as you said, but it is good you will add a reference for White Australia. Thanks as always and best, Altanner1991 (talk) 22:42, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The difference between Apartheid and Rhodesia on the one hand and Nazi ideology on the other is that the former always used the word "white", while Nazi obsession with Jews had nothing to do with skin colour. The obsession with skin colours is a typical American one, originating from slavery. You are right that there is some content of the lead which is not covered in the body, but IMHO that should be solved by adding to the body. Regarding scholars: I was referring to your version of the lead which started In scholarly work, particularly in critical race theory or intersectionality,... What I wanted to say was that also outside of scholarly work and especially outside critical race theory people use the expression "White supremacy". I think that important because you don't need an elaborate theory to see that White supremacy is blatant racist. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem with the Apartheid and Rhodesia rationale is that you are interpreting on your own rather than using outside sources.

The introduction represents the body, not the other way around, unless for small exceptions.

For your last point: again, absolutely no sources are being provided, so I am not okay with it. We can't base article structure and content on your opinions or unsupported claims. I am not sure if the usage of the term "white supremacy" by white supremacists themselves qualifies as a verifiable/reliably sourced support for the claim of White Australia as white supremacy, but perhaps outside editors could contribute. Altanner1991 (talk) 12:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC); edited 09:47, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

With sourcing on Rhodesia and Apartheid this leaves only White Australia.

White supremacy is a unique term; there are others, for example: "white privilege", and "racism". Following are some sources:

• White supremacy is highly associated with violence; mentions Jim Crow but not White Australia
• Scholarly study describing white privilege as a unique concept from white supremacy
• Opinion piece about not confusing the terms white supremacy and white privilege

Although white supremacy can be applied in a variety of contexts, we should be careful so as to not make assumptions.

Altanner1991 (talk) 11:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC); edited 12:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Please stop that ! We have not reached a consensus yet. Please keep in mind that all editors are volunteers, including myself, and so may not always have the time to respond as quickly as you like, or may even not be willing to respond at all, since they think that everything has already been said. I added a source (the one you provided, thanks for that) to the first sentence. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:08, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

What are the other issues regarding your revert? I was trying to keep the pace of BRD. Altanner1991 (talk) 22:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I think we have been discussing long enough now, feel free to seek WP:dispute resolution. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:00, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

We need a source for White Australia. If it is unsourced it cannot be in the article. We cannot say that all racism by white people is "white supremacy" per-se. Source needs to say "white supremacy". Altanner1991 (talk) 11:07, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400 You have been given seven days to add the source you promised for White Australia (diff). I will give this more time but after that if no source can be provided then I will have to revert. Thank you. Altanner1991 (talk) 10:37, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I never promised a ref for White Australia. As I already said, feel free to seek dispute resolution. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I was hoping things could be resolved on this discussion, if possible. A major grievance I have besides unsourced language ("supremacy" is more extreme than any old racism), is that the introduction no longer fulfills WP:Lede: the description needs to be in a section called Description, which is very normal across Wikipedia articles, and the balance in the lede gives undue weight to more minor parts of the article. Regards, Altanner1991 (talk) 12:44, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Given the unexplained reverts I would also like to include the Holocaust as part of the spectrum of white supremacy, especially but not necessarily with White Australia, as I think the Holocaust was more seriously "supremacist", if we are taking these kinds of liberties. Altanner1991 (talk) 21:23, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Sabino Arana

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He was no white separatist, considering he's a basque nationalist, and therefore do not want a state for white people, but one for the basque, I don't think I need to give any source for this, considering it's the main reason he's known for The basque savior (talk) 22:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

 Erledigt There is really no evidence from his article that he was a white separatist. Rsk6400 (talk) 15:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

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White supremacy in latinamerica

I think we should have that section in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.228.20.130 (talk) 21:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022

Add Anti-Mexican sentiment and Racism against Black Americans into the see also section. Many white supremacists hate Black Americans and Mexican immigrants. 91.207.28.164 (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022 (2)

Add Hispanophobia and Afrophobia to see also section. White supremacists hate Hispanics and anything African. 91.207.28.164 (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)