Template talk:Certification Table Entry

Belgian Certifications for older albums/singles

I noticed this problem way earlier, but it become even more apparent after BEA have just updated their certifications on albums on their database. So far there's new certifications on 8 albums on their database and 3 of 'em are older albums from the 60s, 70s & 80s in which they are:

• Brothers in Arms
• Voulez-Vous
• Abbey Road

They're currently listed with the current cert levels which is far from being the case, it's clearly obvious BEA certifies albums/singles based on release date rather than cert date. Brothers in Arms already received a Platinum certification in 1986 for certified sales of 75,000 units and now it's certified 4x Platinum with 80,000 units? It doesn't make any sense and it needs to be resolved quickly. Moh8213 (talk) 04:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: Pinging Harout72 who was involved last time we discussed Belgium certs. What we have in the code for Belgium is that for recordings certified after BEA moved to use streaming, we go by |certyear=. Before that, we go by |relyear=. --Muhandes (talk) 08:37, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The new cert issued for Brothers in Arms by BEA should translate to 200,000, not 80,000. BEA uses its own cert levels, the certifying body in 1986 was Sibesa, so those older levels would't be used by BEA. Does BEA say anywhere on their site that they apply their newer album levels after streaming, regardless of release date? I think our discussion involved singles, not albums.--Harout72 (talk) 12:50, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

For the record, BEA don't certify records, they're only an organization that represents the interests of music, video and video game industries in Belgium, while the former is represented by IFPI Belgium, the local chapter of the International Federation of the Photographic industry (IFPI), so technically speaking it's IFPI Belgium who certifies records in Belgium, not BEA, btw BEA only formed in 2008 and IFPI Belgium have been certifying records in Belgium since the 1980s, so there's that. Additionally, according to the wiki Dutch article of IFPI Belgium, they are associated with Sibesa. So maybe those older cert levels are still used by IFPI Belgium. But I guess the only way to find out is by contacting them, I've sent them an E-mail regarding this issue but so far I haven't got any response. So idk how it's gonna turn out. Moh8213 (talk) 19:22, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The certifying bodies are not always called IFPI Norway or IFPI Sweden for example. BEA just like Amprofon in Mexico, just like BVMI in Germany is a member of IFPI, operating under the general umbrella of the IFPI. The certification levels are decided by BEA in Belgium. In 1986, it was Sibesa in Belgium certifying music, also a memeber of IFPI. Harout72 (talk) 01:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: Why are we suddenly discussing the identity of the certifying body? I thought the subject was the certification levels for albums in Belgium. I suggest we stick to one subject at a time. I pinged Harout72 to hear their opinion on the certification levels since they were involved in the subject before. To reiterate, today certification thresholds for recordings certified after BEA moved to use streaming go by |certyear=. Before that, they go by |relyear=. --Muhandes (talk) 06:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, in short, I just tried to state that those older levels used by Sibesa could possibly still being used today by BEA, considering that Sibesa was also an IFPI member, but yeah you're right, that's anotha topic.

Now, with that out of the way, let's focus on what we have here; Ultratop didn't state on their website that they certify records based on certyear nor relyear, but here's why I believe they certify records based on relyear rather than certyear.

Since BEA appears to be actively certifying records from the 00s, 90s, 80s, 70s and even 60s, it doesn't make any logical sense that those newer certs are also applied to those older records because (a) they were released at a time when cert levels in Belgium were high so those records wouldn't match with today's cert levels and (b) the current cert levels would make those older records look like they've sold less than they actually are, we already have an example with Brothers in Arms, the album received a Platinum certification for selling 75,000 units within just a year, do you really think it took the album 36 years to only sell 5,000 units? When we know for a fact that album sales in Belgium were robust for the longest time. There are other European countries who certifies records based on relyear even after the inclusion of streaming like Germany and Switzerland so it shouldn't be surprising that Belgium does it too. Moh8213 (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I've checked your previous discussion, apparently that discussion mainly revolved around the inclusion of streaming in albums and singles, and how after the addition of streaming the albums and singles started to achieve the previous Gold/Platinum threshold rapidly. But you guys didn't talk about whether the recent threshold affects the older records, records which were released prior the inclusion of streaming in the threshold. Harout already contacted Sam Jaspers, the director of Ultratop, via E-mail back in 2018, shortly after Ultratop changed their current certification threshold, Harout asked him about the new change in certification thresholds and then he asked him: "Is it safe to say that all singles titles released on and after July 1, 2018 will be affected by newer levels?", in which Jaspers replied: "All songs released earlier are also affected if they hadn't reached gold status yet." Taking all that into consideration, it looks evident, that Ultratop still certifies records based on relyear rather than certyear. It seems that it was nothing but misunderstanding. Moh8213 (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: I'm sorry, I forgot about this. It seems like I also misread some of the discussion and upon re-reading it, I see that no objection was raised to BEA using release year threshold for albums. Since this is the consensus, I'll make the template reflect it. I added this to the TDL. Muhandes (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, just if you're wondering, I've noticed this problem after checking the article of the song Rolling in the Deep, based on its chart peak and run on the Ultratop chart, it seems it was one of the most popular songs in Belgium throughout the 2010s, the song immediately achieved the Gold and Platinum status in 2011 alone (when certification thresholds were 15,000 for Gold and 30,000 for Platinum) by 2012 it received 2x Platinum (60,000), in 2013 it was certified 3x Platinum (90,000) and the song's success continued even to 2016 when it received its recent 4x Platinum, which indicates to 120,000 units, but apparently by Jan. 2016, streaming started to be included in singles, and after the code got changed from relyear to certyear, its certified sales got shrinked to what is now 80,000 units, by this change, a lot of records that were released in Belgium will get shrinked once they get re-certified. And that's how I got concerned by it. Moh8213 (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: To resolve that case we will need somewhat deeper solution as we will need to add a parameter for first certification date for singles. According to Jaspers, we would follow release year if the single was already certified, but certification date if it was not. Muhandes (talk) 18:11, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Even though Jaspers said that, I really doubt that tbh, cuz logically (agian) it wouldn't make sense that they suddenly decided to change their certification from release date to certification date, and neither the sources nor the Ultratop website itself mentioned that they certify records regardless of release date, so what made us go from relyear to certyear in the first place? Also another reason why I think it's doubtful is because there are lots of records that were released and performed extremely well in the Belgian charts, yet they haven't recieved any certification, so it would look pretty confusing if they'd get certified with the current code. I suggest to stick to relyear for the time being until we have sources or the Ultratop website says otherwise. Moh8213 (talk) 20:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: I can't find the previous discussion regarding albums, so I am going to revert that, but for singles this discussion still holds, until new consensus is achieved. In other words, you and Harout72 need to iron it out. Independently, I can add a parameter for stating the first certification date, which I suppose will resolve most cases to everyone's agreement. --Muhandes (talk) 07:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@Muhandes: just to note that Harout72 appears to have stepped away from Wikipedia following an ANI dispute, so consensus may be difficult to achieve if there is only one party involved. Richard3120 (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@Richard3120: I saw they were somewhat inactive, thought they were just taking it easy. I guess none else cares about Belgian certifications, so if no one else comments on this until I get to it, I may just revert to the 2018 code. Muhandes (talk) 07:27, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213:  Partly done I reverted albums to use release year only and it works on Brothers in Arms. I am still hesitant about the singles as we have a clear source saying the opposite. I truly wish more people could have a look and share an opinion. Muhandes (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Muhandes: I understand your concern, thanks for adjusting it, this is without a doubt a good step so far, I don't think it's a problem of there isn't enough people who'd share their thoughts on this, it's simply the lack of sources that didn't give a "head's up" on this very simple matter, and the statement made by Sam Jaspers doesn't really help the situation either. It has been more than a month since I've contacted Ultratop and still I haven't got a response from them, and it's been a week since I've contacted Jaspers and I haven't got a response either. What's the point if they have an e-mail to contact them, but they won't interact with you when you reach them? Anyway, if you can add a parameter that would states the certification date, then I guess it'd be better to proceed it, otherwise more and more singles will get shrink once they get re-certified, just like the Rolling in the Deep case. Moh8213 (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Here's a discovery that may sound interesting. While I was researching the Belgian cert levels at the Ultratop site, I found that the "Diamond" award was introduced (for the first time) sometime in March-April, 2022. Meaning that this award goes along with the current certification levels. Singles have to reach 400,000 units to receive the Diamond award, Albums have to reach 200,000 units for it to be certified Diamond. If you recall, Brothers in Arms was certified 4x Platinum for sales of 200,000 units. Another example is the recently certified 8x Platinum Nevermind for sales of 400,000 units. If albums were based on certyear rather than relyear, then these albums should've been certified Diamond and 2x Diamond, respectively. This further proves that albums are without a shadow of a doubt based on relyear rather than certyear. Right now we have cleared the albums, I guess we have to wait until Ultratop certifies more singles to find out whether singles are really based on relyear or certyear. Moh8213 (talk) 09:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: Did any album or single actually achieve diamond? I don't see any on the charts. Muhandes (talk) 13:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

So far there isn't, but it's important to note that unlike some charts (like the ARIA for example), Ultratop doesn't "immediately" show their certifications in the charts, they only show the certifications after the record appear on their yearly certification database (which for the most part gets updated monthly). And the diamond award was only introduced 5 months ago, so I guess we have to wait until more albums and singles get certified in order for us to reveal the truth. Moh8213 (talk) 14:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 29 August 2022

Hi. in Poland entry, we have the following expression:

...
|{{#ifexpr:{{{year}}} = 2005
  |{{#if:{{{month|}}}
    |{{#ifexpr:{{{year}}} < 7
    ...

The last line of the code above should be changed to {{#ifexpr:{{{month}}} < 7 .... Thanks. Jeeputer ^Talk 02:55, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

 Erledigt * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 12:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Spanish cert

It seems there's an error regarding the Spanish certs, just wanted to ask is the singles certifications based on relyear or certyear? Moh8213 (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: See this discussion. If |certyear= exists and is >=2022 it will use the newest levels. Otherwise, it reverts to using |relyear=. Muhandes (talk) 08:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems Eurohunter made it more confusing than it should've been, as that statement clearly translates to "(With effect from week 1/2022 (does not affect certificates issued previously)). To my understanding, that means that singles that were released prior 2022, and are already certified Gold won't be affected by the current cert levels, but if a single was released prior 2022 and haven't received any certification prior week 1 2022, will be affected by the recent cert levels, correct? Moh8213 (talk) 13:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

That also means that singles like Viva la Vida which was certified 3x Platinum (supposedly 120,000 units) in 2009, won't be affected by the current cert levels, correct? Cuz for some reason the single has been recently certified 5x Platinum few weeks ago and it's listed with the current cert levels. Moh8213 (talk) 13:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Moh8213: I think it is you overcomplicating things. The certifying body now uses new numbers. All new certifications are using the new numbers. Older certifications are not affected. It's as simple as that. Therefore, the 3× certification was using the older numbers. The 5× certification is using the new numbers. --Muhandes (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry if I made it confusing, just wanted to make sure that I didn't get it wrong. Anyways, thanks for the help. Regards. Moh8213 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

If you are wondering why I'm "overcomplicating things". Simply put, it's been over a month since Harout72 ceased activity here in Wikipedia, and after an ANI dispute, he abruptly stopped updating the list of best-selling music artists, he knows how the certification levels operate for all countries on that list, and I gotta say it's been difficult keeping up with the list since his vanish, but hopefully we'll get over it with time. Hope this answers your curiosity. Moh8213 (talk) 18:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Best of luck with that. Muhandes (talk) 16:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Made you look

Meghan Trainer needs a certificate for her new song Made you look maybe look into it because people want to stream meghans trainers new song. 1.145.211.137 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

If you have ideas on how to improve Made You Look (Meghan Trainor song) you should post them at that article's talk page. Muhandes (talk) 18:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Sales certificated for Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

I am moving the following discussion from Talk:Happy Xmas (War Is Over)#New Zealand sales : Gold singles ≥ 15,000 units (and not ≥ 10,000 units):

Hello, in the section "Certifications" sales in New Zealand are above 10,000 units but according to the source, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, see at the very bottom of the Web page, Gold singles indicate sales of 15,000 units and above (Platinum ≥ 30,000), at least since 2022. Perhaps the sales thresholds for singles have changed. Any info ? How is it possible to change 10,000 into 15,000 ? Thanks Carlo Colussi (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Carlo Colussi: The consensus reached by the community over the years is that the New Zealand certifications thresholds go by release date and not by certification date. Since Happy Xmas (War Is Over) was released in 1971, the template uses the thresholds used in that period, which are 10,000 units for Gold. Whether this is correct or not is something that should be discussed here. If you are interested, you should start by searching the archive of discussions and finding out the sources used for that decision. --Muhandes (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I have mentioned this on this page before, but I will quote again from the introduction to Dean Scapolo's book New Zealand Music Charts 1966 to 1996 – Singles, page 6, describing certifications listed in the book (with symbols that I can't reproduce here):

Following that is Silver / Gold / Platinum. These represent their respective awards for sales of: Gold: 10,000; Platinum: 20,000 (from 1978 to 1992). Silver was credited in 1987 as 5,000 units. The Gold and Platinum quantity requirements were halved in 1992 due to declining sales.

Harout72 didn't want to use these levels, on account of the fact that we have no firm start or end date for them, which is a fair point. It appears from the note regarding Platinum certifications that these levels were in use from 1978 to 1992, at which point Gold and Platinum were halved and Silver abolished completely. But do we know if certifications were given before 1978? Richard3120 (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Richard3120: I don't think the certification levels are the issue. The levels we are currently using for older releases are from Scapolo, Dean (2007). The Complete New Zealand Music Charts: 1966 – 2006. Wellington: Maurienne House. p. 7. ISBN 978-1877443-00-8., which is available here. Focusing on Gold, it says : Gold ● (10,000 copies to 1988, 5,000 from 1989). The point here is not the thresholds, it is the way we calculate them, which is following the release year rather than the certification year. I don't recall why we do that, but it has been the consensus forever. Muhandes (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the answer,

however I find it very strange that the thresholds are counted according to the release year and not the certification year. I can't see any accuracy in that method.

In the case of Happy Xmas yes it was released in 1971 but I don't think that this recent NZ certification takes into account sales since 1971 but only sales of a recent past.

When you click "Happy Xmas" in the NZ link, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, you may note that the record was on the charts for only 4 weeks. I greatly doubt that Happy Xmas stayed on the charts only 4 weeks in NZ since 1971, more precisely since 1975 because NZ had no charts previously according to the Wiki article Recorded Music NZ.

(In the link https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254 you can find that certifications have begun in 1975).

In other countries, certifications have also started late :

- in the UK in 1973 which could explain that the "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" has never been certified in the UK because it was released in 1970. Only the 2021 re-edition of "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" has been certified (that same year). If you look at https://www.bpi.co.uk/brit-certified/ and search "John Lennon" apparently the "Imagine" album that has been certified was released on ... 2010.10.04 (https://www.bpi.co.uk/award/3259-2886-2) whereas the original album has been released in 1971.

- in the USA, even the RIAA began certifications as late as 1958.

I know that these different music associations have retropolated counts for some very big artists but I think only for them and not for the others.

The RIAA have counted number of records sold before 1958 for Elvis Presley (but I'm not sure they have done it for Sinatra, Bing Crosby, etc ...; Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is possibly the biggest-selling single ever however it has no RIAA certification if I am not mistaken, which is pretty nonsense).

The BPI have likely done it for the Beatles before 1973 but I don't think they have done it for Lennon. In particular his album "Imagine" is only Gold in the UK so I wonder if that UK certification concerns only "Imagine" albums sold since 2010.10.04 and if sales between 1971 and 2010.10.03 have been omitted. If you have a look at the Lennon BPI certifications, they began in 1973 so it is likely that no Lennon records sold between 1968 and 1972 have been counted in any certification.

When you look at Lennon record charts in the UK, https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/27904/john-lennon/, you can see that there are 3 editions of "Happy Xmas" (1972, 2003 and 2007). Besides the UK certification of "Happy Xmas" concerns a record sold on 2005.11.07 (https://www.bpi.co.uk/award/14048-4298-1)

so I am not sure at all that the BPI certification takes into account the "Happy Xmas" records sold between 1972 (in the UK, the single was released one year after the US release) and the 2000's (2003 ?, 2005 ? Not clear).

In conclusion, it seems that many certifications are incomplete since many records sold are probably not counted. I wonder if the NZ certication concerns only the last (4 ? 5 ? other ?) years.

If it's right then it would be very inaccurate to calculate the thresholds according to the release year instead of the certification year.

If Recorded Music NZ certified on 3 January 2022 "Happy Xmas" as a Gold record with more than 15,000 units sold then indicating in Wikipedia that "only" 10,000 units have been sold is clearly an inaccuracy in my opinion. Carlo Colussi (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)