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Related discussion, for the interested: Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom#Recent_research Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Richard C. Lukas

It is worth noting that Richard C. Lukas' book The Forgotten Holocaust, along with another of his works, is part of the "Background Information" reading list provided on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) website.

It is described on that site as follows: An account of the systematic persecution of the Polish nation and its residents by the German forces. Features endnotes, a bibliography, appendices including lists of Poles killed for assisting Jews, primary source documents, and an index.

I respectfully disagree with the review author's opinion that a work recommended on the USHMM website should not be suitable for citation in Wikipedia. --Andreas JN 466 11:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure those are recommendations so much as a bibliography of books in their collection about the topic. It's in a section of the website called "Bibliographies" and the page you linked says (emphasis in the original) "The following bibliography was compiled to guide readers to selected materials on Poles during the Holocaust that are in the Library’s collection." Levivich (talk) 13:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What they are trying to say there is that the bibliography is not exhaustive: "The following bibliography was compiled to guide readers to selected materials on Poles during the Holocaust that are in the Library’s collection. It is not meant to be exhaustive."

They also say that the listed items are "selected materials", i.e. selected from the titles they have in their library. So the book was not included just because they have a copy of it but because the curator of the list thought it was appropriate to include it and guide visitors of their library to it (hence the alphanumeric codes following the titles, which are call numbers for the Museum's Library). Andreas JN 466 13:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ewa Kurek is also on that list. She's the one that said COVID was an attempt to replace Western culture with Jewish culture. I don't think that is a list of "recommended" works. Levivich (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They have one 1997 work of hers in their list, written well before she went off the deep end. Andreas JN 466 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would be careful with reading too much into what it means that a specific book was listed on a particular website. "Selected" may not necessarily mean "we had a ton of books, read them all, and these are the ones we recommend". It may just mean "these are the ones we had" or "these are the ones we got to", and the one-sentence summary is both generic and detailed at the same time. I've written those things, I've made indexes and annotated bibliographies, and I would not read recommendations in them, unless that's specifically mentioned. Drmies (talk) 18:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, Lukas' book is also included in the Further Reading and Additional Sources appendix of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum book "Nazi Ideology and Holocaust".

In that appendix, there are only five books listed for the topic area of "Polish and Soviet civilians, and Soviet prisoners of war". Lukas is the author of two of them. (And yes, Kurek's 1997 work "Your Life Is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-Occupied Poland, 1939–1945" is also listed in the Appendix, for the topic area "The Destruction of European Jewry", notwithstanding her more recent views.)

We can't use the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum as a gold standard source throughout Wikipedia's Holocaust coverage and at the same time maintain that they are casually recommending fringe sources that do not deserve to be cited in Wikipedia.

(On citation numbers see also [1].) Andreas JN 466 19:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think they're "recommending" a work just because it's listed in a bibliography? That is not a reasonable inference. Levivich (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, Andreas already raised this point in the pre-publication discussion, which interested readers can peruse to understand why the reviewer decided to still keep the remark about the book in light of other evidence. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record

Since Groceryheist's review of Grabowski and Klein's "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the Holocaust" has been featured *despite* objections from multiple uninvolved editors (other than me), and *despite* the fact that these editors pointed out both stylistic and factual errors in the review, I do feel the need to say that

The review not only repeats the falsehoods and misrepresentations in the Grabowski and Klein paper, taking statements from abusive banned editor User:Icewhiz at face value
it also misrepresents the paper itself
it uses unprofessional, gushing language
it misrepresents my own response and objections to the paper.
- it does this by focusing on a minor and really inconsequetial potential error in the paper - number of citations for Richard Lukas (btw, Groceryheist, Klein's "updated table" link doesn't work) - while blatantly ignoring my more substantive criticisms. I don't really care whether the authors get the number of citations Lukas has correctly. What I care about is that they print (repeating Icewhiz) several outright falsehoods about my edits. By focusing on a minor tangent, Groceryheist is misleading the reader into thinking that this was the main critique offered by my (and others' response). "Misleading" here is a polite way of putting it.
- the review uses emotive language and rhetorical manipulation ("defensive responses") to further prejudice the reader
- the review pretends that a criticism of the paper is that it ignores my (and others) OTHER contributions to Wikipedia, but I don't think anyone actually brought that up. My edits in this particular topic area can stand on their own, without me having to invoke work I've done elsewhere. Groceryheist is misleading the reader into thinking that I'm making excuses ("but look at my other edits"). I'm not. I'm saying, 100% clearly, that the paper makes false claims about me and my edits *in this topic area*. This is an indirect insinuation by Groceryheist that I have a guilty conscience and I don't appreciate this kind of manipulation by the review author. Of course this will be discussed and debated in the upcoming ArbCom case.
it appears to willfully and purposefully omit the key piece of context here, which is the role that User:Icewhiz played in this topic area and possibly in the development of this paper (it seems the authors interviewed Icewhiz, as well as a few other editors but failed to acknowledge or release the interviews, posting only "select" interviews). The context is indeed important, as almost half the Grabowski and Klein paper is just a rehash (paraphrase really) of the "evidence" Icewhiz posted in the 2019 Arbitration Case in which I was involved. Other parts are based on Icewhiz's WP:AE reports from 2018-2019. This is a very serious omission, which again, misleads the reader, particularly since Icewhiz was banned for extreme abuse and harassment of other Wikipedians, something the authors themselves take pains to downplay, while simultanously calling him a "defender of historical accuracy"
the publication of this review violated Wikipedia policy on WP:CONSENSUS and the point has been raised - why do the Signpost insiders get to ignore output from the general community and operate as if it was not part of Wikipedia? This isn't just the responsibility of the author of the review but also the editor who made a "super veto" decision to run with it.

Volunteer Marek 15:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Especially as part of a publication where the Editor in Chief of the Signpost wasn't available, including a divisive article that got put up a day before the deadline, instead of holding it to next issue at the minimum, was irresponsible. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600^th FP!} 18:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The review draft was posted on the day of the writing deadline (March 4), which we have always been communicating to "Recent research" reviewers and Signpost contributors in general for this very purpose. (Also, it had been publicly decided on February 10 already that Groceryheist would contribute this review for this issue - despite Volunteer Marek trying to make us believe back then that even a link to the paper would put us in violation of policy - and we announced the upcoming review in last issue's "In the media".) Either way, publication actually happened not on March 5 but on March 9 due to other reasons, and as Bri pointed out elsewhere, in the days inbetween March 4 and March 9 the review saw more pre-publication scrutiny and discussion than any Signpost story in recent memory. So it is entirely unclear why you claim that it should have been held up for even more discussion.

The Signpost's writing deadline has been set one day ahead of the publishing deadline for many years (Template:Signpost/Deadline. If you feel that this is "irresponsible" and should be changed, please start a discussion. But do not post misleading claims about the Signpost's process here. Regards, HaeB (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it is too late to add those responsible for publishing this hit-piece to the ArbCom case? It definitely isn't too late to start asking why Signpost exists, if it is going to be used as a platform to preempt ArbCom decisions. Wikipedia's coverage of the Holocaust is a significant matter, and Wikipedia absolutely must consider itself fair game for external criticism, but this fawning piece of uncritical regurgitation of content demonstrably derived from a globally-blocked former contributor is a disgrace to Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of comments from this talk page

@Piotrus and Volunteer Marek: Regarding your deletions of comments from this talk page here, here and [2]:

I appreciate the concern and your disagreement with these harsh criticisms of the "Distortion of the Holocaust" review (speaking as the editor of this Signpost section who supported its publication despite strenuous objections from some people). But WP:TPO sets a pretty high bar for deletion of comments and I think that as long as it doesn't reach the level of WP:NPA, we can deal with criticisms like that we are spreading "lies of Grabowski" or furthering "histeria [sic] introduced by Icewhiz and his Jewish friends", however factually wrong they may be.

And seeing that this review might be attracting considerable critical attention from a non-Wikimedian Polish audience, I would not like us/the Signpost/Wikipedia being accused of censorship, especially given that Volunteer Marek's cryptic rationale "500/30 policy" will not likely be intelligible to many. Regards, HaeB (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TPO is irrelevant here as the relevant policy is this Arbitration Commitee Motion [3]. This has been explained several times already.

Oh and NOW you're going to start paying attention to Wikipedia policies like NPA and TPO, *after* you violated policy by going through with the review in opposition to WP:CONSENSUS which is a policy? Please explain - which Wikipedia policies actually apply and which don't apply to the Signpost? Or is it that the policies only apply to some editors and not others? Volunteer Marek 15:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And there's nothing "cryptic" about my rationale. I provided the link. Several times. Also, these accounts have already been blocked [4] [5] etc. Volunteer Marek 15:57, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek Oh and NOW you're going to start paying attention to Wikipedia policies like NPA and TPO - not sure what you think is inconsistent here compared to the pre-publication discussion, where no comments were removed, also none of your own 50 (even though you falsely accused Grabowski and Klein of lying there, for example), and civility was a in fact a topic of discussion there including by myself (such as when I called you out on your mocking dismissal of a past ArbCom sanction against you regarding incivility, in an attempt to nudge you toward a more constructive discussion style in that debate).

And no, the Signpost didn't violate any policy with the publication of this review. WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "the Signpost must not publish views about a peer-reviewed academic paper that do not align with my own opinion about it" (besides, we already prominently featured your own view in the last Signpost, and Groceryheist again acknowledges it in his review).

Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not interested in going through previous arguments again, but no, you didn't show that I "falsely" did anything - you just engaged in playing semantic word games as a way of justifying your own decision to run this very bad review.
"As the old lawyer's line says, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if the law is on your side, pound the law; if neither are on your side, pound the table. I'd add: and demand “civility.” " - Paul Krugman. Your own responses in those discussion were a constant barrage of taunting and sniping at me so there's your "incivility" right there.
WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "the Signpost must not publish ... Nobody said that's what CONSENSUS means. CONSENSUS does mean that when there's a whole bunch of uninvolved editors telling you "this is really bad, don't publish it", you respect their opinion rather than ignore it or try to WP:WIKILAWYER it away. Was there or was there not significant opposition to the publication of this review? If this had gone to WP:RfC, which it really should have but I guess it's too late now, how do you think it would've been closed?
besides, we already prominently featured your own view in the last Signpost Um, this "prominently featured" was a single sentence " Volunteer Marek, another editor named in the essay, has also published a multi-part response in English on his Substack." in a 600 word essay (for the record I'm not blaming Andreas since that wasn't the purpose of his essay). "Prominently"? You're saying this in all seriousness? Volunteer Marek 16:43, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Um, this "prominently featured" was a single sentence - The very headline of that story was Wikipedians rebut paper alleging "intentional distortion" of Holocaust history ("Wikipedians" referring to Piotrus and yourself), so yes, I call that "prominently".

Regards, HaeB (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that headline reflected the content of the piece accurately? Volunteer Marek 17:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And regarding And there's nothing "cryptic" about my rationale. I provided the link. Several times - uh, actually only after I made that comment.

And in any case, the note that readers now see on top this talk page (<edits violating 500/30 policy (and others) removed>) is without any link and unintelligible to anyone except those editors most familiar with the community's internal controversies about the content area that is the topic of the first review in this issue and the corresponding ArbCom ruling.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I see that since [6], Piotrus has since had the sockpuppeting allegation confirmed for one of the commenters (Wierch Wisełka), so yes, that comment should be removed under policy. Still, even there, the link it provided is informative about what kind of pushback Grabowski, Klein and Wikipedia are receiving from certain corners. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just blocked another one, and revdeleted a comment. HaeB, I see no positive value in leaving that kind of material on the page or even in the history. Drmies (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's kind of the rhetorical trick here though, isn't? "Some bad people criticize X, therefore all people who criticize X are bad, so we can just dismiss all criticism out of hand". Based on this common fallacy. Volunteer Marek 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The next Signpost could have an article about this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, yes. Also, basic economics teaches us that monopolies are usually inefficient and incompetent. Unfortunately costs of entry are very high so doubt that will change anytime soon. Volunteer Marek 16:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The costs of entry to compete with the Signpost are very high? How much do they charge you to create a new page on Wikipedia? Levivich (talk) 18:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, see more basic economics: Opportunity cost. Most of which is "time". You really think that just throwing up an alternative to the Signpost would be simple and easy? Volunteer Marek 18:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ramblings about "Jewish lies" are not legitimate criticism. Removing trolling and disruption, which this unquestionably is, is explicitly allowed by TPO; you don't need to prove block evasion for that. --Blablubbs (talk) 16:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These edits were specifically fair game to remove. I have to question whether it was wise for Marek to be the one to do so, but an uninvolved editor could do so without issue. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ECP applied

Per WP:APLECP, extended confirmed protection has been applied to this page. This action as been logged at [7]. --Jayron 32 16:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 15:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 :Especially as part of a publication where the Editor in Chief of the ''Signpost'' wasn't available, including a divisive article that got put up a day before the deadline, instead of holding it to next issue ''at the minimum'', was irresponsible. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">'''[[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]])</sup><sub>Has about 8.2% of all [[WP:FP|FPs]]. Currently celebrating his [[:File:Elliott & Fry - photograph W. S. Gilbert.jpg|600<sup>th</sup> FP]]!</sub></span> 18:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
+::The review draft was posted on the day of the writing deadline (March 4), which we have always been communicating to "Recent research" reviewers and Signpost contributors in general for this very purpose. (Also, it had been [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions#Suggestion_by_Nick_Moyes_(2023-02-10)|publicly decided on February 10]] already that Groceryheist would contribute this review for this issue - despite Volunteer Marek trying to make us believe back then that even a link to the paper would put us in violation of policy - and we announced the upcoming review in last issue's "In the media".) Either way, publication actually happened not on March 5 but on March 9 [[Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom#Pinging_Editor-in-chief|due to other reasons]], and as Bri pointed out elsewhere, in the days inbetween March 4 and March 9 the review saw more pre-publication scrutiny and discussion than any Signpost story in recent memory. So it is entirely unclear why you claim that it should have been held up for even more discussion.
+::The Signpost's writing deadline has been set one day ahead of the publishing deadline for many years ([[Template:Signpost/Deadline]]. If you feel that this is "irresponsible" and should be changed, please start a discussion. But do not post misleading claims about the Signpost's process here. Regards, [[User:HaeB|HaeB]] ([[User talk:HaeB|talk]]) 19:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 :I suppose it is too late to add those responsible for publishing this hit-piece to the ArbCom case? It definitely isn't too late to start asking why Signpost exists, if it is going to be used as a platform to preempt ArbCom decisions. Wikipedia's coverage of the Holocaust is a significant matter, and Wikipedia absolutely ''must'' consider itself fair game for external criticism, but this fawning piece of uncritical regurgitation of content demonstrably derived from a globally-blocked former contributor is a disgrace to Wikipedia. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|talk]]) 19:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)