:::In such a vein, I've also updated the timeline to coincide with it being ongoing. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> — [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|Siarad.]]|[[Special:Contributions/Javert2113|¤]])</span> 19:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
:::In such a vein, I've also updated the timeline to coincide with it being ongoing. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em"> — [[User:Javert2113|Javert2113]] ([[User talk:Javert2113|Siarad.]]|[[Special:Contributions/Javert2113|¤]])</span> 19:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
::::Thanks Javert! [[User:PrecariousWorlds|PrecariousWorlds]] ([[User talk:PrecariousWorlds|talk]]) 19:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
::::Thanks Javert! [[User:PrecariousWorlds|PrecariousWorlds]] ([[User talk:PrecariousWorlds|talk]]) 19:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"Many Russian cities"? "Large parts of Russia"? Russia is the [[List of countries and dependencies by area|largest country]] in the world. Not only it's false what I am reading here, it's original research too. [[User:Emijrp|emijrp]] ([[User talk:Emijrp|talk]]) 19:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (10) ==
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (10) ==
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I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as of now both seem to be used in sources, although mutiny is used a bit more. We could wait to see what term sets into common usage. I, however, am concerned about whether it should be seen as "alleged" or not, because most sources are now saying that it is, indeed, happening. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is an odd case. Both the Wagner Group and the Russian MoD are well-known spreaders of misinformation, so we probably shouldn't take anything they say as true, perhaps only as "claimed". Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rebellion. As a PMC, they're not part of Russia's chain of command so there is nobody for them to mutiny against; Wagner's highest commanding officer is Prigozhin himself.
Support rebellion. I've looked into the definitions of mutiny and rebellion more and rebellion would make more sense in this context because Wagner is a private military company, so I would assume that they don't have a legal connection to the russian military, mutiny is used for rebelling against superiors (military officers) however this seems like a direct rebellion against the kremlin and ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just quickly looking at some of the sources here - rebellion may make sense, but I'd say better titles would be 'Wagner-Russia Skirmishes', 'Wagner-Russo Conflict' for the time being - till we get a more clear image on exactly what is going on. It appears to be way too large for the word 'mutiny' (and also this title wouldn't be easily discoverable). Foxterria (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're all Russians. Prigozhin claims to still obey Putin. It makes no sense to say Wagner is fighting Russia and that both are separate entities. This is a conflict between Wagner and the Ministry of Offense of the Russian Federation or, more broadly, the Russian professional army. SuperΨDro00:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. Wagner is its own paramilitary force, not part of the Russian Military. The term "Mutiny" is completely incorrect to use here. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion. To me it appears to be a more appropriate option and while reading news, many from Russian sources, I haven't seen "mutiny" being used a single time, at least in the translation of Russian-language sources. I am not aware of how are originally English-language sources reporting on this. SuperΨDro00:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support mutiny for now- I thought I'd give a proper opinion on this- most sources, as far as I've seen, seem to be citing Russian govt. allegations of "mutiny":
The list goes on. So I guess it'd make sense to keep it as mutiny for now, although the fact that they seem to be saying that Moscow is accusing Wagner of mutiny could complicate things. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources say the Russian government is accusing Prigozhin of "mutiny" while others of "rebellion" (e.g. [1][2]). Some sources, when showing Prigozhin's rejection of these accusations, say he denies that he is doing an "armed rebellion" (instead of mutiny) [3]. To me it appears it is a matter of translation. So maybe the issue would then fall on what word is the most appropriate. The meaning of "mutiny" does not look so to me because as some have explained above, Wagner was never subordinated to the Russian government or to whoever they're rebelling against. SuperΨDro00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per its own article Wagner has always been a de facto arm of the Russian government and military, with Prigozhin being a close confidant of Putin and the other top commanders also being ranked Russian officers. Support "mutiny". Lightspecs (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, de facto is understandable. But the fact of the matter remains that Wagner isn't legally, officially, etc., part of the Russian Military. Their chain of command extends to their own leadership, not Russian Military Leadership. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support "rebellion" in the title as Wagner is a private group formerly loyal to Moscow, instead of a part of the Russian Armed Forces themselves. Although I still believe it's best to wait until we have a clearer picture of the situation. Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neither. It seems to me that currently we have no evidence from WP:RS that there is an actual military rebellion by Wagner forces. All we have is lots of blabla from Prigozhin, criminal charges against him, and panic from official Russian forces with military vehicles driving around and checkpoints. A social media bubble is not an armed rebellion. Boud (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a valid stance. Whether this thing is real or not it is receiving huge media coverage so the article will stay at least for a while. Maybe you'd rather add "alleged" next to either "mutiny" or "rebellion" but it is clear we need to chose between one of the two. SuperΨDro00:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alleged? Yes. An actual rebellion or mutiny ongoing? Not for now at least. We cannot make such claims based on unreliable sources, meaning this page shouldn't have been moved to its current title. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC, Reuters and The Guardian are among the outlets that are reporting on this. I do not think they're considered unreliable.
And the current is the first title this article had. It shouldn't be moved without discussion into "alleged". I believe there is a need for a discussion on this talk page for whether we should refer to this as an alleged thing or not just like we're having one for whether we should call this thing a mutiny or a rebellion. Such a discussion has not happened yet. SuperΨDro00:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The question is whether reliable sources have independently verified that the events taking place in Russia are a mutiny or rebellion. This has not yet happened, so the status of this event is currently unverified. The title is based on unreliable sources. I agree that we need a formal move request. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The mainstream Western media is reporting on claims of mutiny and using scare quotes to clarify that there's not yet any real evidence of a mutiny. The adjective "alleged" wouldn't make sense, because Prigozhin is claiming that Wagner is rebelling, it's not just the Russian authorities alleging the supposed mutiny. I'm not sure what title to propose, though. Boud (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Coup scare" implies that the coup wasn't real or turned out to not be as major as the scare made it look to be. So it's not neutral at all, and WP:RS currently are not claiming it's only a scare - plus, that would be pretty close to WP:CRYSTALChaotic Enby (talk) 01:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rebellion. Wagner is a private military company, and considering their size and no official connection to the russian military, this would be considered a rebellion, not a mutiny, since they are not rebelling against superior military officers, but directly to the kremlin and MoD DNMWN (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rebellion. Wagner group runs separately from the Russian military as a private military company. Hence, it would be considered a rebellion since it's an independent force opposing the authority of the Russian government. GodzillamanRor (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait mutiny is a fine term for the next 12 hours, and presumably the facts will be clearer by then so people can make a sensible assessment. 217.180.228.188 (talk) 01:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion It's the term that makes the most sense considering both what Wagner's connection is to Russia, the fact that the term is being used in RS alongside mutiny, and just accuracy of terminology. Even if Wagner is destroyed during the course of this, rebellion seems like the best word to use. SilverserenC01:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kommentar I question the categories used for this article and whether this can actually be considered a "coup". Since it is not a takeover by the official military forces but action by a private security company, and they haven't actually "taken over" anything yet, this term doesn't seem appropriate. LizRead!Talk!01:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't consider it as a coup in my opinion. Prigozhin hasn't made any mentions of removing Putin in his rebellion/mutiny, but he did want to remove Shoigu from Minister of Defence. GodzillamanRor (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rebellion. Mutiny is a loaded term used by Russian media to describt this. It also implies troops munitying against their commanders, which is definitely not whats happenning here,. AS has been noted, Wagner troops are not part of the Russian army, therefor are not munintying against their commanders. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The overwhelming consensus here seems to support a name change to Rebellion, and that seems to be the term used in the media - I'll leave it a while, And then make the change. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do not make any changes, please, Deathlibrarian,before the situation clarifies and the sources out there gravitate towards a rather uniform appellation. This is not just too early to be making such unilateral decisions but we're talking about a sistuatoon that literally is developing and changing as we speak here. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion, for reasons described above; "mutiny" implies refusal of orders against superiors of which are the same organization as yourself. Also, even the term "mutiny" likely doesn't suffice to properly describe the consequences of the seizure of the SMD HQ in Rostov-on-Don. WP:RS also use rebellion to describe the event. [7]VoidDiamondz (talk) 03:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I wouldn't call it a "coup", but at least one Russian general has: "Lt. Gen. Vladimir Alekseev, a Russian intelligence official, also posted a video criticizing Wagner's actions on Friday, saying "This is a coup d'etat." Carlstak (talk) 03:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kommentar - Given that the overwhelming consensus here is that "mutiny" is an incorrect descriptor, and "Wagner Rebellion" is the best term, I have submitted a request for move article to that. Cheers. (see below)Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support rebellion. While I understand mutiny, I think rebellion sounds better. Even though they were under a contract from the Russian MoD, they were a private paramilitary force. However, I think it is more widely considered a mutiny, and may cause a little confusion. Professor Penguino (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait & Support Rebellion, since so much of the information is unconfirmed Telegram stories, it seems that waiting and deciding tomorrow is the best choice. Nevertheless, Rebellion would be more fitting based on current information and the most likely information that will be cleared up in the coming days. LocalStinko (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Civil War is way, way, way, to early to use here. This conflict is not even remotely on that scale. Lets wait a lot longer. The Russian government right now is unified against Wagner, and reports of Russian soldiers siding with Wagner are few in number and don't really qualify as civil division. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hows about "uprising" instead of either term? Although truth be told that doesn't quite ring the right bell either.
Rename it to Prigozhins Rebellion. sounds tougher.
Support rebellion, but do not name it to Wagner Rebellion - rename it to Wagner Group Rebellion. I think the term Wagner Rebellion implies that it's a popular or common name for the current military operation, whereas calling it 'Wagner Group Rebellion' would make it so that Wikipedia is not asserting a potentially sensational name for this, and simply stating that it is a rebellion done by the group. This username should not be capitalized (talk) 08:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support status quo i.e. "mutiny" for the time being. The situation will soon be clarified. It's a volatile situatoon that changes are as we speak.
A note on the nomenclature. It's not a coup nor an insurrection, not according to the accepted meaning of these terms. It may be classed as a rebellion or as a mutiny. The grounds for the latter as far from non-existent, and have little to do with thr official Russian term for the group's actions. We have mutinies by mercenary groups historically in the Roman Empire, in Byzantium, etc. But let's wait a bit and see. Nothing seriously wrong with the current title that needs urgent intervention. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support rebellion Mutiny is not the correct word here. Rebellion is more correct and appropriate to use, because a mutiny, in the more narrow sense, commonly refers to when soldiers in the lower ranks rebel against their own officers and leaders. The title could be very misleading here, and imply that some of Prigozhin's soldiers rebelled against Prigozhin himself. "2023 Wagner Group rebellion" or something similar would be more appropriate to use.TwistedAxe[contact]09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support rebellion This is not a simple mutiny, as the Wagner forces have captured parts in Western Russia.
Support rebellion The situation is increasingly worsening at the moment. Wagner Group is now openly talking about a "civil war" (see here). A part from propaganda, it seems quite clear to me this isn't a mutiny anymore. -- Nick.mon (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mutiny Same thing as rebellion, stop wasting time and report the story. -- Mahie rahman (talk·contribs) 20:10, 24 June 2023 (AEST)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Alleged fighting in Rostov-on-Don?
Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [4]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It could be an option that we make a mention of "Unconfirmed footage of clashes", Since we don't have any way of confirming them as of right now. OneMoron (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are gonna need to wait for reliable sources to report on the issue, it just occurred less than an hour ago, it could be a second civil war 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It is no longer a mutiny, as large swathes of land are being captured. "3 Day Special Millitary Operation" of Moscow is now ongoing. Ridkent (talk) 12:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree This is no longer a simply mutiny, it’s an armed rebellion, which means the entire crisis in Russia and Ukraine has 3 sides now: Ukraine and Russian Opposition, Russian Gov. and Wagner Group. Who knows, it might escalate into a civil war!
I agree with this, but only if it comes to this scenario. Although it seems unlikely as Moscow authorities are on high alert and Prigozhin has no intent of ousting Putin. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but shouldn't it be changed to something along the lines of 2023 Russian Civil War? Given that now Russian forces are rebelling alongside Wagner forces against Putin and skirmishes, shelling, and battles have begun in full force, that means it is a Civil war, not just a coup d'etat - I think it should be stated as it is as bluntly as possible. Spitfire3k (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There should be mention of a civil war as a hypothetical possibility, however this appears to be a contained rebellion at the moment. Fighting has mostly been containted to Rostov-on-Don, although there are reports of it moving up the M4 highway towards Moscow. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think proper to consider it a civil war since it hasnt been confirmed that there are full on battles and skirmishes in order for it to be considered a civil war between Wagner PMC and the russian state. A rebellion is a more proper description of the situation. DNMWN (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of a civil war is "a war between citizens of the same country." This has surpassed a coup, because it isn't a faction of Wagner fighters from Chechnya fighting the Russian government to install a different leader or party. Russian military personnel are picking sides, with tens of thousands of soldiers being moved around Russia and Ukraine as we speak. This is a civil war, we have a video of fighting as intense as in Ukraine taking place in Russian territory. Even if this conflict doesn't last, and believe me I think it will, this is by all means civil, and it is impossible to deny at this point it is not a war. This must be recorded not as a revolt, a mutiny, or a rebellion, but as it really is - a 2023 Russian Civil War / The Second Russian Civil War. Spitfire3k (talk) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, with caveats: No casualties yet to determine a civil war (also, may need to have civil parties to a conflict to be a civil war). But, also, revolt might be better for now. Support, but give it a day (really, a few hours) to see what else transpires. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)04:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - at this stage, it is a rebellion. It could become a civil war, if more forces side with Wagner, but at the current stage, you couldn't describe it as that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m willing to bet that the communists and other political movements based around revolution will revolt soon if Wagner destabilises the government enough 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - Being renamed as rebellion would be the proper description as they are not officially related to the russian state, so it is not mutiny.
Agreed, should not be labelled civil war, way too premature for that, but it has definitely gone beyond a mutiny. Mutinies are usually contained to where they start, whereas this has moved on to marching into and controlling areas beyond its origin and has an ultimate goal of occupation with the possibility of structural changes in authority at the top of the Russian government. Definitely more in line with rebellion. Pmgrunert (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, it depends how the events unfold. "2023 Russian insurgency" could also be a viable title. I feel like going as far as to call it a "Second Russian Civil War" would require a lot more than just the expansion of the rebellion, but the total collapse of the Russian Federation into warring factions. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - If Russia wins, it should be called "2023 Russian insurgency". If Russia loses it should be called "Second Russian Civil War" or "Russian Civil War (2023)". Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Perhaps the article should be renamed to 2023 Russian coup d'etat in the future). I suggest to wait until the events end and/or become clear. Just like the Sudan case. PLATEL (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - just about nothing has happened besides some videos of tanks, there have been no casualties (at least that I've seen). For example, this could easily be some sort of distraction by Russia to disguise a new offensive; it is too early to determine what this is GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Too soon to give a title that implies a civil war, which hasn't occurred at the moment. I think the year should also be added in the title as others have proposed ADifferentMan (talk) 06:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. With the 11th largest city in Russia apparently captured and under Wagner's military control, this is way beyond a "mutiny" at this point. —Fuchsia 'tude (talk) 06:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you can change the move request to "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion". I just don't like how there are two different move requests even though they both have the same consensus. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 06:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - they're not trying to overthrow the government, just calling for the removal of two people. All news articles are describing it as a mutiny, and it's what it's been called by the Russians. Sir Magnus has spoken! (So can you!) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the situation becomes clearer. "Wagner Group mutiny" as a title is fine for now. If it is to be changed, the full name "Wagner Group" should be part of the name, eg. "Wagner Group rebellion". There's no need for a year; either they succeed, or they won't get a second chance at this. — The Anome (talk) 07:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not. It is now that this article will receive the greatest number of readers seeking information (exactly the aim of an encyclopedia). It is also now that information is uncertain that outlets will resort to places such as indeed Wikipedia for information, we're risking altering information artificially and unnaturally (WP:CITOGENESIS, WP:CIRCULAR). We need to act fast. SuperΨDro09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. "Mutiny" is a less charged term than "rebellion" and the situation is far from clear at the moment. Leave it as is for at least a few days, perhaps a week. Fullmetal2887(discuss me)07:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I said above, we do not have that time. We need to offer readers the best information possible and to take measures to avoid circular reporting. If most sources used "rebellion" but because Wikipedia called it a "mutiny" it is this word that became the most common, Wikipedia has failed in its purpose. SuperΨDro09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am actually confused on if this is a coup, rebellion, mutiny, whatever you want to call it, it's in the very early stages. But that being said, the proposed title of "Wagner Group Rebellion" seems most accurate, at least temporarily. Completely Random Guy (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The actions and methods used by Wagner constitute more than just a mutiny, but a legitimate rebellion against the Russians state. They are holding multiple cities at this point, usually a mutiny is on a much smaller, localized scale. Monological (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If it does get moved, we would obviously apply sentence case for the title, i.e. "rebellion" with a lower case "r". Schwede6609:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Whatever decision is taken i'd suggest that adding 2023 to the title is probably a good idea, not only because it sounds better but also because i'm fairly sure most articles like this have the year in the title. MJ9674 (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Wagner Group rebellion", oppose adding the year, capitalizing "rebellion" or removing "Group". This has no proper name, no reason to shorten the already short name of the Wagner Group and a rebellion by the Wagner Group has not taken place before. SuperΨDro09:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Closer, be aware that were three concurrent RMs, the !votes in which should also be considered.
Oppose on Revolt Now while Rebellion and Revolt seem to blend together a lot, there is a agreement that a revolt seeks to destroy government (or in this case a part of government). However this doesn't seem to be Wagner's main goal, It seems that they want to remove Shoigu, not destroy the ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wagner Group rebellion as the most reasonable title per above, although I'd also prefer a word that indicates this is unverified (such as "alleged"). Nythar (💬-🍀) 10:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support "Rebellion" is less likely to be misinterpreted. as "mutiny" could suggest an internal conflict within Wagner PMC. Wikolitan (talk) 10:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Like I've stated before in the previous discussion, mutiny is not the correct word here. Rebellion is more correct and appropriate to use, because a mutiny, in the more narrow sense, commonly refers to when soldiers in the lower ranks rebel against their own officers and leaders. The title could be very misleading here, and imply that some of Prigozhin's soldiers rebelled against Prigozhin himself. Also, not to mention the fact that PMC Wagner is completely unaffiliated with the Russian MOD, and hence they have not committed any mutiny, as they are a PMC and an alone-standing military group. This rebellion is also far too much of an escalation to be called a "mutiny", because of the fact that Wagner's advances into cities like Rostov heavily increase the risk of a civil war occurring. TwistedAxe[contact]10:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I second this. Rebellion seems more correct than mutiny, and is more precise. It is past the point of a mutiny. We will have to see how the situation develops, but for now it looks to be a rebellion by Wagner. DJ-Aomand (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support (for now) - I think "Wagner Group coup attempt" might be more accurate, but in the comming days I'm pretty sure WP:RS will settle on a consensus on what to call this situation, and we should use whatever that is. In the interim, I support saying rebellion instead of mutiny. By the plain definitions of the words, this isn't a mutiny, but it is rebellion. Fieari (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Agree Because a "mutiny" does not have political goals, while there are definitely political goals in this case. Additionally, a "mutiny" implies that one group is fully subordinate to the other group, which is not the case here. The PMC Wagner Group was simply tied to the Russian MoD through a contract. For these reasons, "rebellion" or even "coup d'etat" would be the more appropriate terms. Ilan Be. (talk) 11:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support "Wagner Group Rebellion" As PMC, they are not part of Russia's chain of command, so they cannot mutiny against them; Prigozhin is Wagner's highest commanding officer.
Agree Knowing a bit more know and the circumstances, "rebellion" is a better word to use than "mutiny". If this escalates even more, than my vote is also for a possible "coup d'etat". Bakir123 (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An event of this magnitude can't be classified as a mere "mutiny". Also, as mentioned above, this situation could evolve into a "coup d'état" in near future, and could possibly require further renaming as the events unfold. — Sundostundmppria(talk / contribs)12:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support--This is on a far larger scale than a mutiny. The Wagner Group captured a city of 1 million people and may have taken or be about to take Voronezh, another large city. The situation is developing so rapidly that by the time this discussion concludes, we may be calling it a coup or civil war. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Terminology around the word 'mutiny' supposes a small group of soldiers defying orders in a way that only involves one specific location or a tiny few of them. This is far beyond that already. We're talking about a militant campaign to take over a widespread set of places across a whole territory. And the Wagner Group's leader has already made it clear that his enemy is Putin, personally. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Wagner company heading to Moscow, successful capture of a military district and reportedly some Russian military elements joining Prigozhin for an armed cause against Putin is technically beyond a mutiny. The almighty anomalocaris • chat12:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support We define a mutiny (on our page for it) as a revolt to overthrow an organization to which a group was previously loyal. While one of the goals of this is certainly to overthrow the MoD, it is equally clear from statements and footage that Wagner is attempting to take over complete cities, which is getting outside the range of a mutiny.
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Possible involvement from other Russian military units
Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.
If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Reaction to Mutiny
Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:
The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I removed him and the other commander earlier and was reverted without explanation. I'm going to re-remove the material. HappyWith (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"
procedural close. Two RMs can't run at the same time. Keeping the older and better attended RM open. It doesn't matter that the proposed title in the original RM has a miscapitalized word, that's not a reason to start a duplicate RM. Ongoing RM: #Requested move 24 June 2023. (non-admin closure) —Alalch E.09:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Agree- consensus seems to be to rename it to - *2023 Wagner Group Rebellion*Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) Lets change it to that please, and remove mutiny at least, which is clealry incorrect. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I wasn't going to add very much, just look for information. However as above, I agree with adding "2023". However should rebellion be with small 'r'? - Master Of Ninja (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Well, attempted coups are still called coups, whether they are successful or not. The salient point here is that Priggy is still (by the looks of it) loyal to Putin and isn't attempting to overthrow the Russian government - only a part of it. That's why coup, attempted or not, is not the right word at all. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as can be told the map is supposed to be a defacto controll map not a political map there for labling those regions as being russia would imply they are russian controlled not literally a part of russia and thus the map should be mostly fine EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of the opinion that A map showing defacto control serves the most utility in this developing situation. Although a distinction between what is occupied Ukrainian territory under defacto Russian control could be helpful. Dragon105 (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the shades could eventually be modified to be a bit more colourblind accessible? I know this is not top priority but as a colourblind person I find the colour choice is a bit hard to tell the difference between. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The map currently on there is ridiculous in overestimating Wagner control. We have no evidence that Wagner has anything but a few convoys in Rostov and along the highway to Voronezh 24.4.112.195 (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. If there is a map at all, it should only colour yellow those areas that have been confirmed to have a sustained Wagner presence. Right now that seems to be only Bakhmut, Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh. AsyarSaronen (talk) 06:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please elaborate that the areas colored as Wagner are NOT under the military occupation of Wagner besides key cities such as Rostov (as of now most have left)
Pretty much every military map are de facto control based, meaning that areas where troops "move by" are still colored as control (see for example, C:File:Syrian_Civil_War_map.svg and the amount of sparsely populated desert is still colored). I do agree that the territory under the Wagner can be trimmed. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 07:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Feels far too early to determine the scale and extent of territorial gains/losses on an amateurish map like this when even the nature of the conflict is still dubious at the moment. Give it a week? Or stringent community input/standards like there are on the main Ukraine invasion map? ‒overthrows07:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A map is a good idea, but the borders of occupation in the current map is completely arbitrary and highly misleading. A map showing settlements and highways with a confirmed Wagner presence would be more appropriate. Wikolitan (talk) 10:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Map should not be included until it's clear that there are areas under "control" of Wagner Group beyond just simply passing through. "Wagner Presence" is also not clearly defined. Members of an organization being present an area does not mean that area is governed or occupied by that organization. Nacles (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Them map is absolutely necessary! Actually, it is the only most important piece of information that I use in this post. Amateurish? Let it be; but it is updated and gives information at a glance. As a similar example, in the Wikipedia article "Russian invasion in Ukraine" I *only* use the map, and nearly never read the text. The map us useful to triple-check the claims of other sources. A picture is worth thousand words. Please put back the map, even if it is not perfect. Pterodaktilis (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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More Contextualization Is Needed: Events Predating June 23
We're forgetting the larger context to this: on June 10, all mercenary groups were ordered by Shoigu to register with the Russian military by the end of June. The Wagner group refused that order on June 11, which clearly set the stage for the trainwreck to come. Though the claimed attack on the Wagner group, that set off this rebellion, hasn't (yet) been decisively confirmed, it's clear from context that the action would have been the "or else" part of Shoigu's order, and is clearly motivated by that rationale, and should be understood as such in that larger context. At the very least, the earlier events should be listed as "precursors" to the revolt, since the conflict entailed by the June 10 declaration and June 11 response set the stage for what was to come.
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How come Crimea is painted as Russian territory? According to international treaties and ratified boundaries, Crimea is the (temporary occupied by Russia) territory of Ukraine. It should be painted by light green. Let's correct. Pterodaktilis (talk) 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - Crimea is occupied by Russian forces, so it should be the middle green. Leave dark green for legal Russian territory.
Defacto doesn't necessarily tie into legal recognition. Defacto (in fact) just refers to the on ground reality of control, while dejure (in law) is the legal status of the territory. Therefore an area can be both dejure and defacto controlled by a political entity. Dragon105 (talk) 08:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is false, De jure means in law, De facto means in fact or in reality, thus something can be both de jure and de facto at the same time. Additionally while there has not been foriegn recognition of Russian ownership of Crimea the fact of the matter is they have for the last 8 years been the one with all meaningful controll of Crimea. Thus while there is not technical recognition of it, it helps no one to obfuscate the fact that it has been entirely in Russian hands for 8 years even if technically most countries dont recognise it. As an example there was a time when after the end of the civil war the Republic of China and it's claims where still recognised officially but the Peoples Republic of China controlled the mainland, and at that point would have been strange to say the ROC owned it at all even though their claims where recognised by many countries. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that Crimea is not legally recognized as a part of Russia outside Russia is very important during these events, much more important than the fact that Russia had certain degree of control over that territory for the last 8 years. Thus it must be in different color than the officially recognized territory of Russian Federation. Moreover, the status of Crimea is very similar to the status of Donetsk Oblast' of Ukraine, so painting them light green is consistent.
If yo want, you can pick shades of light green to encode the time span for which different Ukrainian territories were under Russian de facto control, but this will make the map even more complicate and is not relevant for understanding the current events.
Therefore, I vote to have Crimea in the same color as Lugansk and Donetsk regions, and also the same color as the Ukrainian territories occupied by Russia after the 24th of Feb. 2022. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"De facto" is not a well defined term. For example, Donetsk and Lugansk regions were under "de facto" Russian control to varying degree during the last 8 year period – first through the proxy separatist groups and covert Russian army presence, later through the overt Russian occupation. They are light green, as occupied territories. The same logic applies to Crimea, so it should be light green for consistency and to avoid misleading the readers (I was mislead).
The only consistent an unambiguous way to assign territory colors is to paint them according to international treaties that are currently in force. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Should "Wagner Group" be used or "PMC Wagner"?
PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Wikipedia where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the article prose we should just say "Wagner", which is what the sources typically use, not "Wagner Group" or "PMC Wagner" or "Wagner PMC". Saying simply Wagner is the most natural.—Alalch E.12:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that the area controlled by the Wagner Group is that large.
I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nilsol2 All of the Wikipedia images have to be copyright free, and right now almost all of the footage from Rostov is copyrighted by news agencies or their private owners. The only way to submit a image in this article is to manually add it by an owner of one. Kuraczan (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history.
However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Civil wars often consist of multiple groups fighting multiple groups, The last russian civil war was a hot mess of reds vs whites vs seperatists, and these sides weren't united in one single group. Right now this is Wagner vs Russia, and I would also say the situation is not large enough to call a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In good-faith, Your understanding of what defines a "civil war" is flawed, the American Civil War by your standards (a war between the two sides of Union and Confederate) would not be a civil war. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 08:57, 24 June 2023 (EST)
It is still too early to say that this mutiny is a civil war. If it takes longer, yes, it's civil war. Of course, provided that it is widespread, like the civil wars of the American and Libya. Parham wiki (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think if any other factions join Wagner, including Russian military units, then it would at that point be Russian military vs Russian military and be a civil war. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It might not be considered a civil war due to potentially not meeting the scale, intensity, duration, and casualty thresholds often used to define such conflicts.
However, these classifications be somewhat subjective and can vary depending on the specific definitions used.
If the conflict is not resolved within a short to medium long period (1 to 6 months) without major changes to the national leadership, I would call it a civil war. MathiasL05 (talk) 13:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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I think this is a ruse and this site shouldn't help Putin pull it off. If it is and some Russian reads this article and is inspired to join a false cause, then there might be blood on the hands of the editors on here. This article should be deleted in order to avoid interfering. 2604:2D80:6305:600:21FF:8A5D:758:ED86 (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot, and WILL NOT, delete this article. It is our job, no, our duty, as Wikipedia editors, to provide the truth, especially regarding events like this. Redacted II (talk) 11:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, actually- even if this is somehow some elaborately planned and uncharacteristically well-executed ruse, it's still an event that must be covered here. Your own belief that this is a ruse is not valid reasoning to delete the article, not at all Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it is dubious to provide updates for events such as this in real time where information will change on a hour by hour basis as if Wikipedia is journalism. For example, updating battlefield losses in real time is essentially providing potentially unreliable information as if it is fact. 82.27.191.105 (talk) 13:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Add BOAK Response to Russian Opposition Responses
Very recently, another major partisan group in Russia, known as the Combat Organization of Anarcho-Communists, or BOAK for short, have made a response to the conflict on their telegram (https://t.me/BO_AK_reborn/2416). Going on to say "Neither the Putin regime nor Prigozhinsky are our friends. In this fight between two cannibals, anarchists should stay on the sidelines - let them bleed each other as much as possible. So they will not be able to interfere with people in the future." Considering they have played an important role in the partisan movement of Russia and the wider Russian Opposition. I feel it vital to add this to the list of responses to the conflict. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 06:14, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Then add them once their claims are covered by a secondary source. Telegram reports from groups themselves mustn't be used. SuperΨDro10:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, if that is the case, then why are the statements by other prominent partisan groups like the Russian Volunteer Corps allowed to stay when their citation is directly from their own telegram as well? Either both responses can stay or neither can until we get better reporting, otherwise, it's just a double standard. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Well in that case, as much as direct citations are frowned upon, considering other partisan factions' telegrams were allowed to be cited yet not BOAK's response, either both responses should be allowed in the Russian opposition section until we get some secondary sources, or both responses should remain off the page for the time being. Since doing otherwise would just be picking and choosing one faction over another. Considering the blatant double standard, I would have added BOAK's response personally just to be consistent, but because of extended-protections, I do not have access to do that. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 08:50, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Update, good to see that other partisan factions are getting proper sources, as for BOAK, I have found a secondary source that directly quotes the response from BOAK in a proper English translation. https://crimethinc.com/2023/06/24/russian-anarchists-on-the-wagner-mutiny-combat-organization-of-anarcho-communists-and-movement-of-irkutsk-anarchists"But one thing is clear. First, the moment of direct armed confrontation is nearer than ever before. Second, neither the Putin regime nor Prigozhinsky are our friends. In this fight between two cannibals, anarchists should stay away—let them bleed each other as much as possible. That way, they won’t be able to disturb people in the future." While I cannot add this citation in the article myself, considering BOAK is a major faction within the Russian opposition, I strongly recommend someone add this to the opposition responses section I mentioned prior. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 09:17, 24 June 2023 (EST)
Map?
What is the source for this map? It seems like a rough edit from a youtube mapping channel. I don't think we should use it until we have more defnitive information about who controls what Genabab (talk) 10:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We know that Wagner control Rostov & Voronezh as well as the fact that they are moving along the M-4 highway. @Noorullah21's map is probably the most accurate one we'll get. IX1922 (talk) 10:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have also been seeing reports of them controlling small settlements in the regions such a Millerovo on my Twitter feed. It's unclear where they hold, but its obviously not limited just to the roads. A dashed line of the oblasts could be used to indicated disputed control. Ecrusized (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ecrusized I was also planning this, another key could be added for regions where control is unclear, possibly a grey-ish colour, maybe white, or something of the sort. Noorullah (talk) 10:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You need to change it so it reflects whichever highway they are using, they obviously do not 'own' the large swaths of land you have painted in the map and this will confuse people Tweedle (talk) 11:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unconfirmed. Wagner has been painting red Zs[1] on their vehicles, so it isn't clear if that video is of the Wagner Group or The Russian Ministry of Defense.
Are we good to just remove the current one as of now? This is giving me flashbacks to the awful Telegram maps when the invasion began back in February.
None of the current land which is 'claimed' they obviously own, there are like 5 columns travelling up a highway to Moscow this is not some sort of large scale military revolt that's sweeped across Russia that the map is implying to the average reader (intended or not) Tweedle (talk) 12:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, map is not needed here. They have taken control of Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh and are heading up the M4 highway. They are not capturing swaths of land. Mellk (talk) 13:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We formerly use File:Wagner Revolt map.svg in the infobox, then a user changed the image to a new color scheme (blue and red) for better accessiblilty. However the map was lately changed to File:Wagner Group Mutiny.svg that use the old color scheme (blue and green), which made the previous work useless. I think we need a clear consensus on which map to use. BlackShadowG (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What map is being used?
There are currently 1... 2... 3... 9 maps on Wikimedia Commons for the Wagner mutiny already, most just rough duplicates of one another. Only a single map is needed- which one should it be, and how should it be made? I was thinking it should be made in the style of the map for the Belgorod incursions and the invasion of Ukraine as a whole, rather than something out of a "2023 Wagner Rebellion- Every Day" youtube video Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The two of the current maps which were on rotation should not be used anyway, the first one being of which like you said looks like out of a shoddy YouTube video and the second showing large swaths of land claimed looks like a poor Telegram esque map used back at the start of the invasion (even though they control none of that and are just travelling up a highway to Moscow). However I myself I am not the person to make this. Somebody more specialised should show at-least the highway they are going travelling along, there was a better map which was a .png a little while up by @CactusCartocratushere. It does not have any sources attached however but maybe something like that can be reworked? Tweedle (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that one is definitely nice, better than any other one used. But if possible I think it should be derived directly from Russia's locator map, as other war maps have been, rather than just being a PNG file with Wagner control drawn over. But such a map would take time and I don't know how to make them so CactusCartocratus' map could be used until then Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]it'd be preferable for a map to be derived out of this base map
Ok the very nice map has now appeared with the cities and roads and colors like in other war maps, so I think we should start using it.
Just 2 problems with it I see - it should show the disputed territories like the blank above it, and also Taganrog is not shown and it should be under govt control as the Kadyrovites are approaching from there. CactusCartocratus (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One problem I see with this map is bad contrast between Wagner controlled territory (grey) and surrounding countries (also grey). Maybe the color of the Wagner area should be changed to make it easier to see?
There's an issue with the recently deployed map; Wagner is shown in a dark dull color, on a map so big, you can barely see their advances. We should probably do some cropping or something to remedy this. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 14:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well we can just crop it in the page itself like the maps of the Ukrainian counteroffensive are just the main map cropped to a specific area but still the same file.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023
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Reaction of Dutch Minister or Foreign Affairs Wopke Hoekstra on the Wagner Group Mutiny: "Volg met veel aandacht de binnenlandse ontwikkelingen in Rusland. Daarnaast ben ik in nauw contact met de ambassade, die er alles aan doet om een duidelijk beeld te krijgen van de situatie. Via het reisadvies & de informatieservice informeren we Nederlanders die in het land zijn."
Translated: "Following the internal developments in Russia with close attention. Also in close contact with the embassy, which is doing everything in their power to get a clear image of the current situation. We inform our citizens by means of our travel advice and the information service [of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs]."
Reaction of president Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine: "Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos. We keep our resilience, unity and strength. All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"
Reaction of UK prime minister Rishi Sunak in an interview with the BBC on the 24th of June 2023: “We’ve been monitoring for a while now, the potentially destabilising impacts of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We’re keeping a close eye on the situation as it’s evolving on the ground as we speak. We’re in touch with our allies and in fact I’ll be speaking with them some of them later today. But the most important thing I’d say is for all parties to be responsible and to protect civilians.”
Reaction of UK prime minister Rishi Sunak in an interview with the BBC on the 24th of June 2023: “We’ve been monitoring for a while now, the potentially destabilising impacts of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We’re keeping a close eye on the situation as it’s evolving on the ground as we speak. We’re in touch with our allies and in fact I’ll be speaking with them some of them later today. But the most important thing I’d say is for all parties to be responsible and to protect civilians.”
President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine in a tweet on the 24th of June: "Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos. We keep our resilience, unity and strength. All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"
Was removed from international reactions because it was too lengthy, but might be valuable nonetheless considering the Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Chesteroy (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Flemish public VRT uses following header on 12:49 GMT:"Mercenary army Wagner occupies Russian city Rostov-on-Don en advances to Moscow, Putin states (rebellion or revolt) is a 'dagger in the back'", see: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/06/24/liveblog-wagner/
Add in section Reactions in sub-heading 1 International under inscription Ukraine ,,President of UkraineVolodymyr Zelenskyy posted on Telegram on 24 June 2023 ,,He terrorizes with rockets, and when they are shot down, he humiliates himself to give "Shaheda". He despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war - in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow Oblast from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares the year 1917, although he is not able to lead to anything else. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness..'' referring to the conflict between the recent allies of the Russian forces and the Wagner Group.[1]'' - Duosdebs01 (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
> Yevgeny Prigozhin was formerly sometimes described as a confidant of Russian president Vladimir Putin and was his personal chef.
This phrase is clearly some kind of nonsense. What kind of chef when by the 2000s he was an accomplished businessman? What? Personal chef? That's his nickname not his job Gamma1138 (talk) 12:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder what Prigozhin will be remembered for in history texxtbooks- for leading a paramilitary force and commanding one of Russia's largest domestic rebellions, or serving Putin breakfast in bed Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Roads into Russian-controlled Donetsk blocked: Al Jazeera reporter
Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem reporting from Russian-occupied Donetsk says the situation in the city is fluid.
“The Wagner Group marched into the city and took control of the central command centre and now we are hearing that they are besieging most of the government buildings there,” Hashem said.
“All roads to and from Donetsk are blocked and fighters from Wagner are on the streets of the city,” he said.
“There were some attempts by a few people to kind of protest but there was a crackdown on them.”
The leader of the Wagner Group has asserted that the entire force had organized itself as "the patriots" (Ru: патриоты) against the FSB and other authorities, labeling Putin and senior figures under the leader as "the bastards" (Ru: подонков). Or that's what I understand. I don't speak Russian. Is there anything about the commentary here that perhaps an English language reader might miss? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (2)
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Add the German response under International Reactions:
From the Official Twitter of the German Foreign Minister:
"We are continuously monitoring the current developments in Russia and are in close contact with our international Partners. German Citizens in Russia are urged to observe our adapted travel and safety instructions."
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Disagree. I feel like the current name feels better as a title, it contains the same information in less words, and it's generally in line with other articles similar to this. 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (4)
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Write: "Some Russian and Western observers[who?] believe that the organization does not actually exist as a private military company but is in reality a disguised branch of the Russian MoD that ultimately reports to the Russian government.[5][6][7][8] The company shares bases with the Russian military,[9] is transported by Russian military aircraft,[10][11][12] and uses Russia's military health care services.[13][14][15] The Russian state is also documented supporting the Wagner Group with passports.[15][16]" Parham wiki (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Should DNR and LNR be in the "Domestic" response section? Eventually the section may be made into its own article if it grows too large. WMrapids (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done This is an article about the Wagner Group rebellion, not the Russo-Ukrainian war. The map should only show the Wagner Group's territory in Russia, not the Russian occupation in Ukraine. 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still eyewitnesses accounts so not much. But heard on Twitter Spaces that the Russian police confirmed Wagner forces in the oblast, trying to find a direct quote from them. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you have to add the comment regarding pinches of salt, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Kindly stop trying to add misinformation to the article. Kremshin (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not saying these sources should be added, sorry if I wasn't clear. My point is it's something to look into for better sources, if there are some, that could then be added. If the Russian police did in fact confirm Wagner presence, that could be addded. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Twitter is not a reliable source. WP:RSTWITTER. The nature of Wikipedia is we should be one of the slowest to report on things (because we are summarizing reliable secondary sources such as reputable WP:NEWSORGs), but also the most accurate. There is no rush. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kremshin Russian Armed Forces wikipedia page states there are 1,5 million active personnel and 2 million reserves, i dont think this army only having 200 men on lines is a plausible claim. i think there should be added "*(exact numbers unknown)*" text next to the confirmed information. Cactus Ronin (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of those 1.5 million are not combatants. Almost all combatants are in Ukraine or on other Russian borders. That means they aren't in defensive positions. I find the 200 number pretty plausible, honestly. Fieari (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cactus Ronin This is an estimate from Meduza; would "200+" be a better way to write it? It seems like the rest of this conversation that were focusing more on the figure in complete disregard that this is only an estimate of how many Kadyrovites were deployed (nothing more, nothing less). If you have a sourced estimate for the MoD and National Guard forces deployed to handle the mutiny, you are free to add it. NAADAAN (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Only the number of Kadyrovites. May take some time until any sources are found about the number of members in the AFR and others participating in this. Deus vult fratres! (talk) 16:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't then it be better to add in something along the lines of "Unknown number of other Russian armed personnel" until some actual numbers are found? 82.160.125.101 (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Best source for 'Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president' quote?
I'd really like to add Prigozhin's response to Putin's speech, namely, "Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president" as being very relevant to the article. It was posted on his official telegram, but that's a primary source. A number of secondary sources have ALSO reported on it, but I'm not sure which would be the best... I'd prefer one of the big world media companies like the BBC, but the secondary sources that have reported on this are... not good. Business Today, News 18, Newsweek, all blacklisted by wikipedia, for good reason. Anyone have a better secondary source? Or would this be a good place to just use the primary source? Or does the fact that BBC hasn't reported this quote really mean that it's not inclusion-worthy? Fieari (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Primary would be fine because its directly related to the event and its by one of the main participants, not some off tangent thing unrelated, although normally its nice to accompany such stuff with secondary sources. Tweedle (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Request of the following information to be added
1. The reaction of Finland regarding the subject; Petteri Orpo, the prime minister of Finland has been in contact with Kaja Kallas (PM of Estonia) and Krišjānis Kariņsi (PM of Latvia) in regards of the group rebellion. Finland is closely cooperating with Estonia and Latvia. Orpo's tweet
2. More info regarding the reaction of the chechens regarding the subject - the chechen leader also stated the following: “The [Wagner Group) rebellion must be crushed, and if this requires harsh measures, then we are ready!” [[10]]
Currently, the infobox lists the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment as being on the side of PMC Wagner, as per a Socportal source. According to a Tweet, this happened over 2 hours ago. If this were true, it would be pretty difficult to cover up, so there should be other sources as well. There aren't. I have a suspicion Socportal is not a reliable source. Dieknon (talk) 16:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is exactly what Socportal is, a registered media company in Ukraine that publishes in Russian, Ukrainian English and German. I'm not sure why people are saying they fail WP:RS. they have proper legal standing as a media company, have reporters, a functioning editorial board, and all the other qualifiers to be a RS. Scu ba (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Scu ba This is a case where WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. A regiment of the Russian armed forces defecting and joining Wagner would be a major development that you would expect to end up on every news site in existence, but the only place that this is mentioned is a Socportal piece? Looking at the Socportal website brings up several red flags to me, everything from the .info url to the fact they have 500 followers on twitter to the NGO that claims to own them having no internet presence all paint a picture of a small/amateur operation. This is a case where we should wait for major mainstream sources. 192.76.8.66 (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see the Socportal has been removed from the sources list. Could we perhaps fix the infobox too? The claim that the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment is on PMC Wagner's side is unsourced. Dieknon (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Latvia is closely following the developing situation in Russia and exchanging information with allies Border security has been strengthened, visa or border entry from Russians leaving Russia due to current events won’t be considered" LatviaRich (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to potential and relevant additions, I believe there is a fairly sizable number of Belarusian Opposition groups that have responded to the Wagnar revolts, yet have not been taken note of on this page, in spite of them having serious relevance for Belarus and by extent, Russia. For one instance, we can cite the Belarusian Opposition and anarchist group Autonomous Action, as cited here: https://crimethinc.com/2023/06/24/russian-anarchists-on-the-wagner-mutiny-combat-organization-of-anarcho-communists-and-movement-of-irkutsk-anarchists going on to say "Prigozhin is no better than Putin: now some fascists are fighting against others. Any authoritarian power eventually gives rise to bloody conflicts (...) there is no “our side” in the clash between the “Wagnerites” and the “official” state structures. In the ongoing squabble, all of them pursue only their own interests and will only defend themselves. It is better for all other people not to risk themselves in someone else’s struggle and, if possible, stay away from collision points." I also think there are also a few other major Belarusian opposition groups that have made responses too but I do not have citations for them as of now, so others input is welcome. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2023 (EST)
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PM Trudeau stated: "Canada's incident response group will meet on Saturday to discuss the latest developments in Russia," and in a tweet said, "Canada is in contact with allies and will continue to monitor the situation closely."
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Crimea
I saw a statement from Russian-installed Crimean leader supporting Putin but I couldn't recall the url and I'm trying to find a decent article that is not a live blog. Borgenland (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The office of Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko just announced that Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin accepted a proposal to “stop the movement of armed persons of the Wagner company on the territory of Russia and take further steps to de-escalate tensions,” the president’s office said, with similar reporting in Russian news outlets.
The statement said that Vladimir Putin briefed Lukashenko in the morning and, with his approval, Lukashenko held negotiating talks with Prigozhin.
“Negotiations continued throughout the day. As a result, they came to agreements on the inadmissibility of unleashing a bloody massacre on the territory of Russia,” the statement read.
Wagner nor Prigozhin has not commented on the negotiations."
Rebellion still ongoing, article should not be in past tense.
For all we know, while Wagner forces are turning back, there is still an active rebellion going on. One of the largest cities in Russia, Rostov, is currently occupied by a force defying authority from the central government. Until further information is given, this is still ongoing. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. I don't mean to speculate, but as an example the occupied regions of Russia may be held hostage in some way by the Wagner Group in exchange for demands. Whatever the case, it is clear that while an attack on Moscow has been averted, the rebellion is still going on. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You said it better than I could. I agree in full. The rebellion ending is not verified, per, again, NYT, on the front page: "Yevgeny Prigozhin said his forces were turning around after they were believed to be on their way to Moscow. His claim could not yet be verified." — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)18:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (8)
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In international reaction, under the Sweden bullet point, please amend with the following:
Seems likely, lukashenko announces it meanwhile he was so close to moscow
As well as he has been silent, also he didn't mind shooting down helicopters, why would he suddenly care about "bloodshed" when he got thousands killed on both sides in Ukraine.
Seems veey fishy to me. THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I made the same mistake too when I first started using Wikipedia. You can use this page to suggest anything you think will improve the quality of the article! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The current "reactions" section is a simple list without regard for weight. A common trend around WP:RECENCY is to try to include everything that is being said by anyone about a certain topic. Instead, try to create a WP:PROSE description that summarizes the main points with regard for what ideas are WP:DUE. An encyclopedic summary of the types of reactions is far more valuable than a list of quotes. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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@RealHavaspierre, while Wagner has backed down from attacking Moscow, they are still holding many Russian cities, like Rostov.
I don't mean to speculate, but this is just an example of what the situation could be: The march on Moscow may have been to pressurize the government to respond, and now they may be trying to use the occupied territories almost as hostage to gain concessions from the Russian government.
Now, this is just one scenario, and I am in no way saying this will happen or that I think this will happen, the point is that this is a possibility, and an example of why we shouldn't be too hasty to say "it's over". There are still many questions that need to be answered. Until we get further information, it's best to keep it as ongoing while large parts of Russia remain occupied by a force actively defying the central government. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 19:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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In the section Rise in influence write: "Some Russian and Western observers[who?] believe that the organization does not actually exist as a private military company but is in reality a disguised branch of the Russian MoD that ultimately reports to the Russian government.[2][3][4][5] The company shares bases with the Russian military,[6] is transported by Russian military aircraft,[7][8][9] and uses Russia's military health care services.[10][11][12] The Russian state is also documented supporting the Wagner Group with passports.[12][13]" Parham wiki (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]