Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones: Difference between revisions
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[[File:Mockup for 2022 Atl Season for strongest storm debate.png|thumbnail|Mockup for what the Strongest section could look like.]] |
[[File:Mockup for 2022 Atl Season for strongest storm debate.png|thumbnail|Mockup for what the Strongest section could look like.]] |
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::I made a ''really'' rough sketch in MS paint of what I was thinking it could look like. The values are not right. The font will obviously be more correct with the template. Wording may also change. [[User:Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">✶Mitch</span>]][[User talk:Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">199811</span>]][[special:contributions/Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">✶</span>]] 15:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
::I made a ''really'' rough sketch in MS paint of what I was thinking it could look like. The values are not right. The font will obviously be more correct with the template. Wording may also change. [[User:Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">✶Mitch</span>]][[User talk:Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">199811</span>]][[special:contributions/Mitch199811|<span style="color: goldenrod">✶</span>]] 15:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:It looks nice, but do we necessarily need to include winds for the storm with minimum pressure, or the pressure for the storm with maximum winds? I might just have the storm name and the appropriate value for each strength rating. — <span style="font-family:Helvetica;Arial; font-size:12px;">[[User:Iune|<span style="background:#D28574; color:#fff;padding:0 4px">Iune</span>]][[User talk:Iune|<span style="background:#E6A77D;padding:0 4px; color:#fff;"><i>talk</i></span>]]</span> 16:30, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:30, 1 August 2023
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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Tropical cyclones and anything related to its purposes and tasks. |
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To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Tropical cyclones:
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Today's featured articles
- 12 Sep 2024 – Tropical Storm Hanna (2002) (talk · edit · hist) will be Today's Featured Article; see blurb
Did you know
- 30 Aug 2024 – Severe Tropical Storm Lionrock (2010) (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
- 26 Aug 2024 – Tropical Storm Kai-tak (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
- 24 Aug 2024 – Typhoon Nat (1991) (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
- 23 Aug 2024 – Typhoon Virginia (1957) (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
Templates for discussion
- 23 Aug 2024 - Template:Hurricane Isaac (2012) series (talk · edit · hist) TfDed by Hurricanehink (t · c) was closed; see discussion
Featured article candidates
- 10 Aug 2024 – Hurricane Cindy (2005) (talk · edit · hist) was FA nominated by Hurricanehink (t · c); see discussion
Featured list candidates
- 31 Aug 2024 – Timeline of the 2011 Pacific hurricane season (talk · edit · hist) was FL nominated by Dylan620 (t · c); see discussion
- 24 Jul 2024 – Timeline of the 1995 Pacific hurricane season (talk · edit · hist) was FL nominated by Dylan620 (t · c); see discussion
Good article nominees
- 01 Sep 2024 – Typhoon Ewiniar (2024) (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by HurricaneEdgar (t · c); start discussion
- 31 Aug 2024 – Hurricane Dennis (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Hurricanehink (t · c); start discussion
- 30 Aug 2024 – Severe Tropical Storm Lionrock (2010) (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
- 25 Aug 2024 – Tropical Storm Talas (2017) (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by TheNuggeteer (t · c); start discussion
- 21 Jul 2024 – Tropical Storm Harold (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by IrishSurfer21 (t · c); see discussion
- 17 Apr 2024 – 1876 Atlantic hurricane season (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by 12george1 (t · c); start discussion
- 09 Apr 2024 – 1873 Atlantic hurricane season (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by 12george1 (t · c); start discussion
- 28 Aug 2024 - Tropical Storm Axel (1992) (talk · edit · hist) GA nominated by OhHaiMark (t · c) was promoted by TheNuggeteer (t · c), see discussion
Peer reviews
- 26 Aug 2024 – Tropical Storm Kai-tak (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by TheNuggeteer (t · c); see discussion
Articles to be merged
- 30 Aug 2024 – Timeline of Hurricane Katrina (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Meteorological history of Hurricane Katrina by Zzzs (t · c); see discussion
- 12 Aug 2024 – Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Pennsylvania (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New York and New England by Zzzs (t · c); see discussion
- 12 Aug 2024 – Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New Jersey (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New York and New England by Zzzs (t · c); see discussion
- 12 Aug 2024 – Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New York and New England (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Effects of Hurricane Isabel in New Jersey by Zzzs (t · c); see discussion
- 05 May 2024 – Hurricane Isaias tornado outbreak (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Hurricane Isaias by Hurricanehink (t · c); see discussion
- 29 Aug 2024 - Preparations for Hurricane Katrina (talk · edit · hist) proposed for merging to Hurricane Katrina by Zzzs (t · c) was closed; see discussion
- 29 Aug 2024 - Hurricane Wilma (talk · edit · hist) proposed for merging to Effects of Hurricane Wilma in the Bahamas by Hurricanehink (t · c) was closed; see discussion
- 29 Aug 2024 - Effects of Hurricane Wilma in the Bahamas (talk · edit · hist) proposed for merging to Hurricane Wilma by Hurricanehink (t · c) was closed; see discussion
- 28 Aug 2024 - Tropical Storm Jose (2005) (talk · edit · hist) proposed for merging to 2005 Atlantic hurricane season by Zzzs (t · c) was closed; see discussion
- 23 Aug 2024 - Central dense overcast (talk · edit · hist) proposed for merging to Tropical cyclone by Zzzs (t · c) was closed; see discussion
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Project notes
I just created this wikiproject, after several months of contemplating doing so. I hope everyone working on hurricane articles will get involved. I went ahead and wrote a bunch of guidelines, basically based on current practices...naturally since this is something I just wrote it doesn't necessarily represent community consensus and needs to be discussed. That discussion should probably go here for now...although eventually we may make these pages a little more structured. For a general TODO list, see the "tasks" item on the project page. Jdorje 23:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Reconsidering the Hurricane Severity Index
I am a member of WP:Weather, but not WP:Cyclone specifically and have some concerns about the Hurricane Severity Index (HSI) on many hurricane-related pages. I think it is more useful than the Saffir-Simpson Scale, but I think it's very out-of-date. The last storms on it hit the US 15 years ago and granted there haven't been many landfalls past that point (fortunately), but I still think there have been multiple storms that could have made the list. I have found a source that I believe says how to calculate it if we are able to do that without copyright (I'm actually not entirely sure how that works), but considering how I have found very little information on it outside of 2008 when it was proposed except for one article made after Hurricane Harvey 2017, I think we should reconsider having it on our pages, or at least rebranding/relabeling it.
https://www.stormgeo.com/assets/Uploads/HSI-Abstract-for-AMS.pdf
Jamisonsupame (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Jamisonsupame, are you referring to {{Most intense landfalling Atlantic hurricanes (HSI)}} being placed on some pages? As far as I can tell it's transcluded on Hurricane Opal, Hurricane Camille, Hurricane Betsy, Hurricane Ivan, and List of Atlantic hurricane records. I'm not surprised that there's not much information on the HSI out there as it was developed by a private company, ImpactWeather, Inc, which has since been acquired by StormGeo – publisher of the article you linked above. I guess it never really saw more widespread use owing to copyright (people would have to cite their methodology every time they used their scale, or maybe even pay royalties) and it seems likely the main motive behind StormGeo/ImpactWeather developing the scale was to sell their products (they are a business analytics firm, after all).
- Anyway, we can't calculate the HSI ourselves – it'd run afoul of Wikipedia policies on original research as applying their formula goes way beyond routine calculations, especially with the 87-knot wind radii not being publicly available from the NHC, and wind radii from historical systems having to be calculated using historical storm surge data from SLOSH. (StormGeo/ImpactWeather doesn't actually outline how they do either of these things.) Their ranking table also looks somewhat cherrypicked to me, or maybe that's just because they don't have the data for some historical systems e.g. I doubt the 1935 Labor Day hurricane should be missing entirely. Given the absence of transparency behind their calculations and potential issues with comprehensiveness, I'd say that there's not much point in the table existing outside of the Hurricane Severity Index article. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 10:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- I personally wonder about the notability of the HSI article since the scale hasn't taken off at all and is only used by StormGeo themselves. CC: @Cyclonebiskit: since he created the HSI template in the first place.Jason Rees (talk) 15:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Adding the ACE in basins outside NHC's responsibility
Should the ACE section be added to the Pacific typhoon, North Indian and Southern Hemisphere season articles? Although they don't use RSMC data, they are also official and good measure of seasonal activity. IntegerSequences (talk | contribs) 08:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- @IntegerSequences You need to clarify what you want here, as the inclusion of ACE has been discussed multiple times over the years. Regardless lets take a couple of steps back here and consider a few things that need to be considered before ACE goes anywhere near the season articles. First of all we have to remember that there are at least two ways to calculate what the ACE of a season is, which means straight of the bat it is original research for us to calculate it ourselves. We then would do well to remember that the ACE is one of at least 4 ways to calcuate how active a season is with Velocity Flux, Power Dissipation Index and the Hurricane Destruction Potential index being other ways to calculate it. We then have to take a step back and remember that there are multiple warning centres in these basins, which prompts the question whose data do we use? It would be ideal to take the data from the RSMC/TCWC's (JMA, IMD, MFR, BMKG, BoM, PNG NWS, FMS, MSNZ), who are official, however, with the exception of the IMD they do not tend to present details on what the ACE was. We could use the data from either Ryan Maue or Phil Koltsburg/CSU, however they currently disagree with each other. I also compared the JTWC 2020 ATCR which states that the ACE for 2020 was 155.7 with both websites. CSU shows that it was 152.8 units, while I can not see an overall value for 2020 from Ryan Maue. It is also worth remembering that the season articles are long enough without a section being added that talks about various statistics. Out of curtsey I am pinging @Siroxo: to this discussion, as they commented on this proposal when it was originally placed on Talk:2023 Pacific typhoon season.Jason Rees (talk) 10:28, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Strongest storm
2023 Atlantic hurricane season keeps getting its strongest storm changed and me, User:Hurricanehink, and User:Drdpw have expressed interest in the changing of what defines the strongest storm. It is mostly based on the premise that people don't read footnotes and comments and that in our experience, strongest storm usually correlates to wind speed. While I'm not sure about the views of other editors (or how it could be coded), I think that we should have three strongest storm categories: one for intensity, one for windspeed, and one for when there is one storm with both highest windspeed and intensity. ✶Mitch199811✶ 23:06, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Having three different categories seems a bit excessive, and bulky. The infobox would be overcrowded for one. I'm not sure why our practice is to measure a storm's intensity by its barometric pressure rather than its wind speed (perhaps another editor can provide further insight there). I'm not really sure there's an easy solution to changing the infobox to measure by wind speed rather than pressure unless there's a consensus to do so. Gumballs678 talk 03:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- There needs to be a way to include both the strongest by wind speed and most intense by pressure in the season infoboxes when not the same storm, as happens in many seasons. Our practice of measuring tropical cyclone strength by pressure has generated confusion and controversy across several articles, and is out of sync with with various meteorological agencies worldwide, which determine tropical cyclone strength by wind speed. And more broadly, in media and common conversation, wind speeds equate with strength, not barometric pressure. (See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Archive 48#Two Proposals Concerning Listing Tropical Cyclone Strength) Drdpw (talk) 04:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t disagree. Maybe “strongest storm” can still exist, and then if a scenario such as the one in this current season arises, we can have strongest by wind and strongest by pressure, that way both areas are covered and it clears confusion. If it doesn’t occur, meaning it’s clear that the strongest storm of the season is X and not Y, then we can keep the separate designations hidden. Gumballs678 talk 12:06, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- There might be a better way to do it. But it's really just so that we can say who the most intense, windiest, and both ones. ✶Mitch199811✶ 15:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- In terms of measuring intensity, wind speed, and the categories associated with them, is used as it is the easiest way to convey information about a storm to the public. However, a storm's overall intensity is better represented by its pressure, which includes other things like size and structure, and determines its location and movement. I know this isn't much, but I hope it helps. ChessEric 18:14, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ChessEric Would it hurt to have effectively two strongest storm sections, one half for pressure and another for wind speed? ✶Mitch199811✶ 18:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- No. If it gets rid of the confusion, I'm all for it. ChessEric 19:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- It would alleviate confusion and controversy generated across several articles. Drdpw (talk) 03:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- No. If it gets rid of the confusion, I'm all for it. ChessEric 19:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ChessEric Would it hurt to have effectively two strongest storm sections, one half for pressure and another for wind speed? ✶Mitch199811✶ 18:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- There needs to be a way to include both the strongest by wind speed and most intense by pressure in the season infoboxes when not the same storm, as happens in many seasons. Our practice of measuring tropical cyclone strength by pressure has generated confusion and controversy across several articles, and is out of sync with with various meteorological agencies worldwide, which determine tropical cyclone strength by wind speed. And more broadly, in media and common conversation, wind speeds equate with strength, not barometric pressure. (See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Archive 48#Two Proposals Concerning Listing Tropical Cyclone Strength) Drdpw (talk) 04:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone with coding skills have the ability to do a mock-up for the 2022 AHS to demonstrate this? Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 12:55, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- I might be able to via MS paint but I don't even know where templates are coded. ✶Mitch199811✶ 14:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- I made a really rough sketch in MS paint of what I was thinking it could look like. The values are not right. The font will obviously be more correct with the template. Wording may also change. ✶Mitch199811✶ 15:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- It looks nice, but do we necessarily need to include winds for the storm with minimum pressure, or the pressure for the storm with maximum winds? I might just have the storm name and the appropriate value for each strength rating. — Iunetalk 16:30, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
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